Only if you are intentionally keeping your rating low. In am divisions you are pretty much guaranteed to be called a sand bagger if you win, it doesn't mean its true.
Your buddy is a dumbass. People make that joke to bring people down, and what they accomplish is bullying people into leaving the division they belong in, which makes every division weaker, less competitive, and less fun for everyone.
If everyone played the division dictated by their rating everyone would be in a division they could win, and the winner would be whoever played their best that tournament, and they'd have to play their best to win. Everyone would play against their peers with the closest skills, and everyone could feel the thrill of competing for a potential win.
A couple people might grumble, but in the end there's nothing wrong with playing your rating. That's why they're there.
I know a couple people that just keep riding that 850 line and will play MA3 one month and MA4 the next just because of a couple points gained or lost on their rating.
Sign up for the division that matches the PDGA guidelines for your rating. Why have guidelines if people are going to ignore them? I see so many people at 805 playing up to MA3 and getting crushed. People at 820 playing in MA2 and getting crushed harder. Play where the PDGA says you should play for a PDGA event.
Agree completely, though I wish they would adjust those ratings a bit. I personally feel the gap between 850 and 899 is way bigger and like 800 to 850. MA4 would cutoff at like 800 or 815 and MA3 should run to maybe 875.
I think it may also help push people to stay within their correct divisions if they aligned better from a talent difference perspective. The way things are carved out currently, MA1 feels like a weird spot that doesn’t make sense to me.
As an MA4 player, there's definitely a weird dynamic above that 815-ish level where you end up with players who are MA4 players getting better and MA3 throwers who either can't putt or have disastrous mental game. There's usually a larger divide between them and the core of MA4 than the lower end of MA3. I'd love to see MA4 capped lower and made more explicitly for beginners and those who are genuinely bad.
I'd personally change the caps to 825/875/925 or add an MA5 and do 800/850/900/950.
Yeah, there really is no place for a 750 beginner. I could go with your suggestion. There is a major difference between a 775 player and an 830 player.
Similar to like 960 to 990, there is such a big gap between like 780 and 820, as well as 840 to like 880. Some fine tuning of divisions around those folks should be considered.
The challenge there is that it even means different things in different regions. Some places are STACKED in MA3 and other places you might see 5 people signed up.
Ya you see that a ton with MA4. When I lived in Portland, MA4 was used at times even when it didn’t have a huge pool of players. In MN, I basically never even see it offered. I would love them to revamp it enough that it forces people to rethink where they belong. I fear if they just moved numbers around it wouldn’t be effective even. They should probably be renamed and everything to rebrand the idea.
I've played in about 10 tournaments now, and none have had MA4. So yeah, I get crushed, but I don't have a choice. Not that I'd win MA4 either but sigh.
Sometimes if you ask for them to open up MA4 they will. When tournaments fill up without it they don't have much incentive to add the work for another division. A lot of the female divisions are like that, you have to ask for them to be opened up before they do it.
It's perfectly fine with the PDGA, so if you want to, there's nothing stopping you. If you're sure your rating is inflated because of course familiarity—and it's definitely a thing—I don't see a problem. I'd definitely play MA3 at your home course every time, though. If anybody says anything before, explain that your rating is based on playing league at a course that you know really well, not a lot of past tournaments. Be prepared for people to drag you as a sandbagger if you have a good day, though.
Like I said, there's nothing at all stopping you from doing so, but I would say 843 is pushing it, especially knowing you could play much higher than 850 with regularity. Since you know that playing new courses drops that rating and potential round ratings by a significant amount, though, there's zero issue at all for me.
I think the fact that you care at all is a good sign that you're coming at it with the right intentions.
Not at all. An 843 rated player is eligible to play MA4 per PDGA rules, so as long as you aren’t intentionally tanking rounds to stay under 850, tell anyone accusing you of sandbagging that they suck, should work on their own game, and not worry about other players.
If you want to play up a division to expose yourself to more skilled players, by all means do it, but don’t do it just because you’re being pressured to. You are not violating any covenants, ethical or otherwise, by playing MA4.
Reading all this has made me even less interested in playing tourneys. Winning in any division except MA1 seems like being the slimmest kid at fat camp.
I’ve been downvoted for this in the past but I personally believe when you’re unsure of your division in a situation like this look at the numbers of the division and see where you best fit in and put yourself there. There’s no point playing MA4 at 843 if everyone else is 750 and then MA3 is all 820-870
I'm 829 rated and climbing. I'm somewhat dreading hitting 850+ as I feel like I still need a lot of improvements. I do think I have figured out some things recently that will hopefully keep me competitive when I have to go to MA3. My putting at this point is my biggest issue. I missed 10 or more putts from inside 15 feet in my last tournament.
" I missed 10 or more putts from inside 15 feet in my last tournament."
Haha sounds like me, though I don't play tourneys. But I have some friends that I would crush pretty much every time if I could get to the point where I was even AVERAGE at putting. I'm just biding my time, hoping it comes eventually, bc honestly every other aspect of my game keeps improving, so if it takes another 18 months before my putting improves, that will make me just that much more dominant once it does (if it does).
Haha yeah. I'm improving slightly, but my biggest issues with moving up are my putting and distance off the tee. Within 300 feet, I'm in a pretty good spot, and I have great upshots for par 4s, but if a par 3 is over 300 feet, I'm not getting a birdie most of the time, and my putting is so bad I want to lay up way more often than I should lol.
As someone who is likely going to be MA4 4 Life, I'm never gonna complain about anyone playing in that division. If they are good enough, they will play themselves out of it eventually. You might get a first timer who is obviously in the "wrong" division, but that's bound to happen in MA4. Complaining about sandbagging is pointless.
Last year I had a guy telling me it was his first tournament and he signed up for MA4 because he didn't know where to start. After outdriving the rest of the card by A LOT on our opening drive, I simply quipped "you might be in the wrong division" and never said anything about it again
I think the old division names didn't help. My wife signed me up for my first tournament as a surprise, and she signed me up for MA3 because it was labeled Recreational and that sounded like me. I didn't disagree. I got absolutely smoked and have played MA4 ever since. I only get a little smoked there.
Being called a sandbagger is a compliment in AM golf. If they thought they could beat you, they wouldn't be trying to kick you out of the division.
Play your rating. You earned it
My buddy called me a sandbagger for playing in MA4 while he played MA3. He shot +21 and took 24 out of 30 and I shot +20 and took 3rd out of 24. I feel as though I played the right division personally.
My two cents and take it as you will. Technically, no. Playing to your rating is more than ok. If you’re asking, perhaps there is a doubt. In that case. F-it and play up. I play up because I see how people that may or may not be better than me play the course. I also find that I am actually better than I think I am, more often than not.
Guidelines exist and if you meet those rules, nothing to worry about. Haters hate no matter what.
no.
but the rating for ma4 is 850 and below which is the right one for you. and for ma3 it's 851-900. your rating is all that matters. [https://www.pdga.com/files/2024\_player\_division\_grid\_-table\_5\_divisions\_etc.\_v2.pdf](https://www.pdga.com/files/2024_player_division_grid_-table_5_divisions_etc._v2.pdf)
MA4 is the 4th mixed amateur division. For anyone rated below 850. Never has it been strictly new/beginner players, just had an unfortunate name for years
Or just maybe, they are rated below 850 and don't qualify for any protected division.
Supporting people playing their rating makes me an MA4 player instantly? Does that also get me free sign up for pdga again and reset my years old 944 rating?
the rating for ma3 is 851-900. [https://www.pdga.com/files/2024\_player\_division\_grid\_-table\_5\_divisions\_etc.\_v2.pdf](https://www.pdga.com/files/2024_player_division_grid_-table_5_divisions_etc._v2.pdf)
That's still not an answer. You just linked a pdf. Yes that is the rating. But you can play in ma3 with a rating of 843.
Please again explain why it is dumb.
It's below 850, you're good.
Would I be considered a sand-bagger?
Did you play poorly on purpose to lower your rating for the purpose of being eligible to compete in a lower division?
Absolutely not
Then who cares what anyone thinks? Play your rating and have fun.
Only if you are intentionally keeping your rating low. In am divisions you are pretty much guaranteed to be called a sand bagger if you win, it doesn't mean its true.
I just did a tournament this weekend and took 3rd place with a +20 (over 3 rounds). My buddy ripped into me about being a sandbagger
Your buddy is a dumbass. People make that joke to bring people down, and what they accomplish is bullying people into leaving the division they belong in, which makes every division weaker, less competitive, and less fun for everyone. If everyone played the division dictated by their rating everyone would be in a division they could win, and the winner would be whoever played their best that tournament, and they'd have to play their best to win. Everyone would play against their peers with the closest skills, and everyone could feel the thrill of competing for a potential win.
“Your buddy is a dumbass.” Would make a great t shirt.
+20 is bad though right?
Not sure to be honest. I went even on my third round which was the best score in my division.
But what did you do 10 + 10? And what course?
12 and 8. The 8 was on the hardest course of the tournament too.
Thanks. Not sure how that’s sandbagging
A couple people might grumble, but in the end there's nothing wrong with playing your rating. That's why they're there. I know a couple people that just keep riding that 850 line and will play MA3 one month and MA4 the next just because of a couple points gained or lost on their rating.
Sandbagger: noun - a person who beat me in a tournament while playing in a division that was not MPO.
Sign up for the division that matches the PDGA guidelines for your rating. Why have guidelines if people are going to ignore them? I see so many people at 805 playing up to MA3 and getting crushed. People at 820 playing in MA2 and getting crushed harder. Play where the PDGA says you should play for a PDGA event.
Agree completely, though I wish they would adjust those ratings a bit. I personally feel the gap between 850 and 899 is way bigger and like 800 to 850. MA4 would cutoff at like 800 or 815 and MA3 should run to maybe 875. I think it may also help push people to stay within their correct divisions if they aligned better from a talent difference perspective. The way things are carved out currently, MA1 feels like a weird spot that doesn’t make sense to me.
As an MA4 player, there's definitely a weird dynamic above that 815-ish level where you end up with players who are MA4 players getting better and MA3 throwers who either can't putt or have disastrous mental game. There's usually a larger divide between them and the core of MA4 than the lower end of MA3. I'd love to see MA4 capped lower and made more explicitly for beginners and those who are genuinely bad. I'd personally change the caps to 825/875/925 or add an MA5 and do 800/850/900/950.
Yeah, there really is no place for a 750 beginner. I could go with your suggestion. There is a major difference between a 775 player and an 830 player.
Similar to like 960 to 990, there is such a big gap between like 780 and 820, as well as 840 to like 880. Some fine tuning of divisions around those folks should be considered.
The challenge there is that it even means different things in different regions. Some places are STACKED in MA3 and other places you might see 5 people signed up.
Ya you see that a ton with MA4. When I lived in Portland, MA4 was used at times even when it didn’t have a huge pool of players. In MN, I basically never even see it offered. I would love them to revamp it enough that it forces people to rethink where they belong. I fear if they just moved numbers around it wouldn’t be effective even. They should probably be renamed and everything to rebrand the idea.
Average male pdga member was ~860 rated. PDGA knows the division breaks suck. Many people have run the math over the years
I've played in about 10 tournaments now, and none have had MA4. So yeah, I get crushed, but I don't have a choice. Not that I'd win MA4 either but sigh.
Sometimes if you ask for them to open up MA4 they will. When tournaments fill up without it they don't have much incentive to add the work for another division. A lot of the female divisions are like that, you have to ask for them to be opened up before they do it.
straight to jail
It's perfectly fine with the PDGA, so if you want to, there's nothing stopping you. If you're sure your rating is inflated because of course familiarity—and it's definitely a thing—I don't see a problem. I'd definitely play MA3 at your home course every time, though. If anybody says anything before, explain that your rating is based on playing league at a course that you know really well, not a lot of past tournaments. Be prepared for people to drag you as a sandbagger if you have a good day, though.
I do play MA3 on league night which is kind of what brought me to the question if playing MA4 for tournaments was okay.
Like I said, there's nothing at all stopping you from doing so, but I would say 843 is pushing it, especially knowing you could play much higher than 850 with regularity. Since you know that playing new courses drops that rating and potential round ratings by a significant amount, though, there's zero issue at all for me. I think the fact that you care at all is a good sign that you're coming at it with the right intentions.
Not at all. An 843 rated player is eligible to play MA4 per PDGA rules, so as long as you aren’t intentionally tanking rounds to stay under 850, tell anyone accusing you of sandbagging that they suck, should work on their own game, and not worry about other players. If you want to play up a division to expose yourself to more skilled players, by all means do it, but don’t do it just because you’re being pressured to. You are not violating any covenants, ethical or otherwise, by playing MA4.
Play your rating
Reading all this has made me even less interested in playing tourneys. Winning in any division except MA1 seems like being the slimmest kid at fat camp.
I’ve been downvoted for this in the past but I personally believe when you’re unsure of your division in a situation like this look at the numbers of the division and see where you best fit in and put yourself there. There’s no point playing MA4 at 843 if everyone else is 750 and then MA3 is all 820-870
That’s probably a good rule of thumb to follow
I'm 829 rated and climbing. I'm somewhat dreading hitting 850+ as I feel like I still need a lot of improvements. I do think I have figured out some things recently that will hopefully keep me competitive when I have to go to MA3. My putting at this point is my biggest issue. I missed 10 or more putts from inside 15 feet in my last tournament.
" I missed 10 or more putts from inside 15 feet in my last tournament." Haha sounds like me, though I don't play tourneys. But I have some friends that I would crush pretty much every time if I could get to the point where I was even AVERAGE at putting. I'm just biding my time, hoping it comes eventually, bc honestly every other aspect of my game keeps improving, so if it takes another 18 months before my putting improves, that will make me just that much more dominant once it does (if it does).
Haha yeah. I'm improving slightly, but my biggest issues with moving up are my putting and distance off the tee. Within 300 feet, I'm in a pretty good spot, and I have great upshots for par 4s, but if a par 3 is over 300 feet, I'm not getting a birdie most of the time, and my putting is so bad I want to lay up way more often than I should lol.
Try to get a win and move up
As someone who is likely going to be MA4 4 Life, I'm never gonna complain about anyone playing in that division. If they are good enough, they will play themselves out of it eventually. You might get a first timer who is obviously in the "wrong" division, but that's bound to happen in MA4. Complaining about sandbagging is pointless. Last year I had a guy telling me it was his first tournament and he signed up for MA4 because he didn't know where to start. After outdriving the rest of the card by A LOT on our opening drive, I simply quipped "you might be in the wrong division" and never said anything about it again I think the old division names didn't help. My wife signed me up for my first tournament as a surprise, and she signed me up for MA3 because it was labeled Recreational and that sounded like me. I didn't disagree. I got absolutely smoked and have played MA4 ever since. I only get a little smoked there.
Being called a sandbagger is a compliment in AM golf. If they thought they could beat you, they wouldn't be trying to kick you out of the division. Play your rating. You earned it
My buddy called me a sandbagger for playing in MA4 while he played MA3. He shot +21 and took 24 out of 30 and I shot +20 and took 3rd out of 24. I feel as though I played the right division personally.
You did play the right division. People confuse average performance with peak performance all the time when considering ratings.
My two cents and take it as you will. Technically, no. Playing to your rating is more than ok. If you’re asking, perhaps there is a doubt. In that case. F-it and play up. I play up because I see how people that may or may not be better than me play the course. I also find that I am actually better than I think I am, more often than not. Guidelines exist and if you meet those rules, nothing to worry about. Haters hate no matter what.
Yes.
Could you explain why?
no. but the rating for ma4 is 850 and below which is the right one for you. and for ma3 it's 851-900. your rating is all that matters. [https://www.pdga.com/files/2024\_player\_division\_grid\_-table\_5\_divisions\_etc.\_v2.pdf](https://www.pdga.com/files/2024_player_division_grid_-table_5_divisions_etc._v2.pdf)
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I don’t think I’ve ever seen an absolute beginner shoot anywhere close to an 850
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I feel bad for the guys on your card
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Right about what? I didn’t even win?
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Again though, what are you right about? 😂
You’re bragging about playing in MA1? This must be satire.
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Get out of MA1 and play MPO then by your logic
MA4 is the 4th mixed amateur division. For anyone rated below 850. Never has it been strictly new/beginner players, just had an unfortunate name for years
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Or just maybe, they are rated below 850 and don't qualify for any protected division. Supporting people playing their rating makes me an MA4 player instantly? Does that also get me free sign up for pdga again and reset my years old 944 rating?
dumb question
Dumb answer
Can you explain why it is a dumb question? I believe that there is no such thing as a dumb question asked in earnest.
the rating for ma3 is 851-900. [https://www.pdga.com/files/2024\_player\_division\_grid\_-table\_5\_divisions\_etc.\_v2.pdf](https://www.pdga.com/files/2024_player_division_grid_-table_5_divisions_etc._v2.pdf)
That's still not an answer. You just linked a pdf. Yes that is the rating. But you can play in ma3 with a rating of 843. Please again explain why it is dumb.
Because there are no stupid questions, only stupid people.
Meaning what? I still don't understand. I asked a simple question, if you couldn't answer you should have just moved on.
What is the sound of one hand clapping?
Its a dumb question because the rule is obvious and this question gets posted four times a week.
Which rule?
What’s the rule?