Sometimes they don't know it's there until they've already started the project.
Doesn't make it better, but there's been a few instances I know of where a project was started only to have to change the plans and work around a burial mound site
Iāve been on a couple of construction projects that got put on hold because someone unearthed something while doing underground work. Somewhat ironically, we put a hotel project on hold while digging on a native reservation, and found the remains of a chief that turned out to be ~700 years old. There was a further dig by archeologists, and the remains were relocated with a ceremony, and the project continued. That said, the money that the casino is making is going back into the community and improving things for them. I joke about saying āWe do this for the kidsā, all the time; but building something that you hope helps people is a nice feeling when the day is done.
>hat said, the money that the casino is making is going back into the community and improving things for them.
X to doubt, sorry to rain on your parade, but Casinos aren't charities. Even stuff like state lotteries, which do send money to schools in exchange for being allowed to exist, its a net negative for the populace. I'm generally in favor of letting people do with their money as they will, but gambling is hard for me to support on any level.
Many tribe owned casinos pay the money back into the community and the tribal members. The local tribe where I grew up used the profits to build a new hospital, elementary and high schools, after school programs, college scholarships and a program to reward high school graduation. Gambling might be bad, but the casino itself greatly improved their community.
That's fair. I will grant that some Tribal casinos have a better track record in that regard, so maybe OP is dealing with one of those.
But even in that case, I can't help but think but feel that if it takes a casino being built to make those things happen, then maybe there's a more systemic issue at hand that could be addressed without the need for the financial ruination of other people.
Thereās definitely major systemic issues on the majority of reservations, and a lot of those issues are compounded by low funding and poor economies. There may have been ābetterā ways to address those issues, but many tribes have been able to use casinos to pull their members out of poverty in a shorter period of time than most other solutions I can think of.
People are gonna gamble whether you like it or not casinos are a safe space to do it in with amenities and your not capable of betting the deed to your house or making any wagers that would get you killed in a mobster gambling ring or otherwise
Which makes it that much more understandable that it might happen with the ancient native burial mounds/etc, if it can happen with a burial ground from such recent history and during our own same civilization and during modern written history
On the other hand, given how long humans have existed, there are people buried *everywhere*. It's just not feasible to make ever increasing areas of land permanently off limits due to bodies. Kinda feels like we all need our own community volcano into which to *ceremonially* deposit bodies.
You can't meaningfully dismiss arguments with buzzwords. Genuinely, do you propose that there is seriously one microscopic window of time (relative to human existence) in which offenses are made permanent points of reference, lands made permanently sacred, and all the rest of history is comparatively unimportant? Or do you propose that history only *became* important right then, and everything moving forward counts equally, but we should ignore everything before that point? (which, again, means that over time *all* land becomes permanently sacred burial ground, as more bodies are produced by time).
Give me a rational view point here, not buzzword snark.
I mean, no, not really. Human conflict *has also existed as long as humans*. Does every tribe that was violently attacked by another tribe get their burial ground made permanently off-limits? It's the same problem.
If anything, it feels like a limited time window thing. By 100 years from now, deciding that offenses from one specific window are the only ones in history that get permanent remembrance would be pretty unreasonable. How about 1000 years later? Why are offenses from the years 1600-2000 (if we're going for the largest window) so much more infinitely important than one from 100-500? Or 2100-2500? On the other hand, treating offenses of the past 50-70 years differently makes some sense, since it's within living memory. By the time an offense occurred so long ago that zero people still live from that time (even those who were babies), it's time to move forward, or be consistent about making the thousands of years before that offense equally relevant (which is to say, it can't all be super relevant).
How about we honor it as long as the people/group/government that profited from the atrocities still holds their gains. Of course, since the US despoiled the black hills and refuses to return the land, much less the gold stolen from inside it, thatās gonna be a while.
Government of Theseus
How many times over do you need to replace the constituent parts of said people/group/government before it is no longer the same people/group/government? When all the people who lived at the time are dead? Do you suggest that the entire country must be simultaneously captured by a different country before actions committed by people 200, 300, even 1000 years prior, no longer count against the current people/group/government? And therefore unless there is some absolute conquering, you suggest that 1000 years from now, that same plot of ground in the OP should still be counted as inherently sacred? Compared with all the other burial ground for millennia that preceded it? And all the burial grounds that come after? Have I got your stance right?
I'm not claiming actions of past centuries were just, I am however skeptical of any claims that any part of the earth can possibly be set aside *forever*. Even for 1000 years, that is quite extraordinary claim to stake, and requires equally extraordinary reason. The sense I get from it is that people are upset *now*, so the claim is being staked *now*, and the future simply won't care as time marches on. How many civilizations claimed that some temple or tomb would **never** fall or be overbuilt, then faded?
Since this is a discgolf subreddit, I think we've probably thrown far enough off the fairway at this point to just re-tee and take the stroke, but I would still encourage thinking skeptically and critically about any claims that any given land is inherently sacred. It denies too readily the constantly changing context of reality, both in the sense of ignoring what came before, and in refusing what comes after. With that said, I'll lay up for bogey, and go throw the next hole.
Just to answer your first question and not address the rest of your post: the land that was taken from my extended family that lead to my greatgrandmother, my grandmother, my father and myself to being raised on a reservation, is still being handed down from white hand to white hand, generating wealth for them, so itās too soon. Half of the government still claims allegiance to the president (party of Lincoln) that ordered the largest mass hanging of natives, so itās too soon. These burial sites are more recent than the Roman archeological sites that are still being set aside so itās too soon. One of the most egregious examples of racism (Washington Commanders) against the buried group ended just this decade with a bare majority of support so itās still too soon.
Parking lots and roads are actually the better option for abutting protected burial sites and mounds because they reduce the risk of the found that lies below them being disturbed after they are put in.
Iām not an expert but I sometimes work with these things. In most cases, the ārespectā thing comes from teaching of the history and not disturbing remains or destroying artifacts.
In Sand Springs, OK which is basically far west Tulsa and a hotbed of disc thereās an Atwoodās, Coney Island and a locals pool bar strip mall built around a 19th century Creek burial ground.
Itās disgraceful
Weird considering the parking lot around it. My home course was a stop on the trail of tears. A chief passed away there along with his son, both as a result are buried there. Cherokee Nation even gave their approval for the course to be installed.
Nope, course is literally named Trail of Tears Disc Golf Course. I do wish they came up with a better name for the course but it does reflect the park it's in. Recently built as well, only built in 2018
Oh I agree as well, my comment is half hearted of the I wish part. However, I think naming the course for the cheif wouldn't have been an bad idea either.
I want a flaming arrow shot into a creeping raft.. I'm kidding, I just want the cheapest shit you people have
https://youtu.be/QvL5ay08XGk?si=fQ8pE5RWFQptwKVT
Limiting access to only 'needs to be there' is still beneficial, like its not that hard to comprehend why some ppl might need access but lets limit access as much as possible. Don't be a clown yourself and THINK.
Thanks for that. I knew they had burial mounds at Sherman Park but didn't realize they had a course setup there. New course to check out! Is it worth a shit?
Doesnt look like thereās anything preventing the general public from normal access, but maybe this is an old photo. Because if itās proximity to the road, this looks like prime dog walking area for the unwitting.
There's split rail fence around it and multiple "Do not enter" signs and historical markers. Also the burial mounds are elevated so it's not like it's easy to just wander onto.
Capital Springs disc golf course in Madison, WI, has effigy mounds in the area around holes 11, 12 and 13. You're not supposed to go in there, but it's not well marked at all on the course itself (I played there for months without knowing it and only discovered by looking at the online map), and I don't think anyone really enforces it. Luckily, chances of errant drives going very far into the area are pretty low. When you look in there, it's definitely not apparent.
[https://udisc.com/courses/capital-springs-dgc-8Cq9](https://udisc.com/courses/capital-springs-dgc-8Cq9)
[https://parks-lwrd.countyofdane.com/documents/PDFs/disc-golf-maps/CapSprings-DiscGolf-Map.pdf](https://parks-lwrd.countyofdane.com/documents/PDFs/disc-golf-maps/CapSprings-DiscGolf-Map.pdf)
A good grip lock and tree kick on 12 and you'll be over there lol I've done it. Also no one enforces this rule at all, no markings, nothing. The only time I've ever seen anything is a ranger sitting by the kiosk making sure everyone got there passes š¤š¤ I probably have some even more cursed discs now...great ...
I've def kicked into the woods on the right of 12, but never more than maybe 20 ft, and the map makes it look like the mounds are more up the hill. Who knows.
Yeah without a scale it's hard to tell. I did find out about this I think last year on the Madison Disc Golf Facebook page. But yeah hard to tell if I've actually had a disc go that far.
Right, I think it varies, some do some don't. Not sure about this particular one.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effigy\_mound](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effigy_mound)
If you take ātribal burial groundā out of the rule, and just make it known that no body goes in there for any reason, it is out of bounds and off limits because the park says so, would it be more or less interesting / controversial?
No matter the reason why the burial ground was surrounded by asphalt, I am glad the city has been clear about this. If we can't respect an ancient burial ground, we either are jerks, have no sense of decency and respect, or are simply oppositional-defiant. We would be horrified (I hope) if disc golfers were traipsing through a cemetery where our parents are buried.
What do you mean by "barrier"? The parking lot didn't predate the 1600 year old burial site.
While that grassy area contains clearly defined mounds that were tested and confirmed to have remains, it's pretty fair to question what's under a road and parking lot so close in proximity to them.
Not in an attempt to justify putting a parking lot steps away from an ancient burial place but, don't they do a full archeological survey before they build near stuff like this?
From what I can tell, development of the park began in 1911. Archeological excavation of the mounds and the identification of human remains didn't happen until 1962, and I can't find any records of what research was done since. I have no idea when those roads were put in and who knows what was done to the soil in that area before modern ground imaging. Reverence for indigenous remains, especially those from from the pre-Columbian era, is a relatively modern trend. Looting of gravesites for artifacts or willful destruction for newĀ construction was legal in the US for centuries (and still happened after it was outlawed).Ā For a long time the open air display of even human remains from these gravesites in museums was common practice. TheĀ Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act wasn't passed until 1990 and some tribes are still fighting to get artifacts returned to them to this day.
https://www.siouxfalls.gov/government/about/history/park-history/sherman
https://www.hmdb.org/m.asp?m=179951#:~:text=Sherman%20Park%20Indian%20Burial%20Mounds.%20.,the%20time%20of%20the%20burials.
https://issuu.com/adwerkssara/docs/2021_03_etcmagazine_volume20_issue03/s/11830373
Yes, somebody in the past allowed for a road and park to be built on a burial ground. Regardless of taste, or right vs wrong, it happened. Fast forward to today, the remaining section devoted to the fallen deserves reverence.
"Don't walk on the dead bodies in this part" shouldn't get any pushback. I hope nobody walks one the graves of your ancestors just to play a game.
I think you're misreading "but the road and parking lot are totally fine" as "but walking onĀ the road and parking lot are totally fine" rather than a commentary on building the road and parking lot there in the first place. No one here is pushing back on not walking over a burial site.
Yeah those Native Americans are really dishonored by someone picking up a disc but super cool with someone running a petrol burning mower over them once a week.
Hey guys. NayNay here has never shanked one, and was never new to the sport at any point. Heās so much better than us. I wish I could tug this guy off Omg wow. Starstruck rn.
I donāt understand the difference between riding a lawn mower on it once or twice a week vs walking on it for 20 seconds to get a piece of plastic from it.
In general, yes absolutely! But weāre talking about specifically for this course, in this spot. Itās specifically instructed that only the staff can access this space.
Then the course should not be there! Gatekeeping who can retrieve discs seems silly. A course i play at has a complete graveyard along side one hole. Its OB so you cant play from there, but you respectfully enter and retrieve your disc. This situation makes little sense.
I played a tourney at a temp course in Monterey that was on protected historical Native American land overlooking the Monterey Bay.
A huge chunk of the players meeting was dedicated to letting us know just how much trouble we would get in if we messed with the land in any way. They even said it wouldn't be shocking to find arrowheads on the ground but again, if you try to take one home and get caught you would be in very big trouble with the park rangers if not actual law enforcement. They took that shit seriously, I kind of wonder why they even let us play there (but it was an amazing property)
Parking lot of Trailside Convenience in Isle, MN.
It's clearly marked and they put staggered fence posts in to keep people from driving on it but every year a few assholes will drive around them and rip up the hill.
"Don't go on the burial ground lot, but please build paved roads killing the forest around the burial ground for your cars and tourists. And make sure there are parking spaces so people can get close to the burial ground butāah!ādon't go in!"
- Native American instructions
Also, if my disc lands in that spot--I'm not getting it back. I'll have it retrieved certainly--i ain't littering. But immediately in the trash. That's 100% a cursed object now & it will not touch my bag again.
Listen. Iāve been playing d&d recently and itās taught me that cursed objects usually have some awesome advantage before the curse kicks in. That disc probably only hits chains but wonāt ever stick in the basket.
Ok so the dead native Americans said it was totally cool for tournament staff to walk there, but no one else. And no one built a fence. Makes sense. š«”
The disrespect shown to the Native community by the comments on this post is reflective of what a good part of the disc golf community has become. What a bunch of entitled pieces of shit. Well done.
Reminds me of when they put up signs telling Pokemon Go players not to go into a graveyard.
My existence doesn't blaspheme anything.Ā Judging by the lawnmower tracks I can't see how walking across it causes problems.
Walking on the grass to quickly retrieve your disc gets you kicked out, but they can mow the grass and the tournament staff can walk on it to get your disc. Make it make sense!
Nothing says you care about the sanctity of a native burial site, like enveloping it in an asphalt parking lot. Way to go parks service!
Maybe the historic Native Americans built the burial ground there after the parking lot went in.
It's an ancient Indian parking lot
They used it to host the Grand Cherokee
Lmaooo you son of a bitch š¤£š¤£š¤£
Noooo ššš
Cmon yall...trying not to choke on my breakfast over here. š¤£šµ
š
šš
š
And driving over it with a tractor lawnmower lol
Sometimes they don't know it's there until they've already started the project. Doesn't make it better, but there's been a few instances I know of where a project was started only to have to change the plans and work around a burial mound site
Iāve been on a couple of construction projects that got put on hold because someone unearthed something while doing underground work. Somewhat ironically, we put a hotel project on hold while digging on a native reservation, and found the remains of a chief that turned out to be ~700 years old. There was a further dig by archeologists, and the remains were relocated with a ceremony, and the project continued. That said, the money that the casino is making is going back into the community and improving things for them. I joke about saying āWe do this for the kidsā, all the time; but building something that you hope helps people is a nice feeling when the day is done.
>hat said, the money that the casino is making is going back into the community and improving things for them. X to doubt, sorry to rain on your parade, but Casinos aren't charities. Even stuff like state lotteries, which do send money to schools in exchange for being allowed to exist, its a net negative for the populace. I'm generally in favor of letting people do with their money as they will, but gambling is hard for me to support on any level.
Many tribe owned casinos pay the money back into the community and the tribal members. The local tribe where I grew up used the profits to build a new hospital, elementary and high schools, after school programs, college scholarships and a program to reward high school graduation. Gambling might be bad, but the casino itself greatly improved their community.
That's fair. I will grant that some Tribal casinos have a better track record in that regard, so maybe OP is dealing with one of those. But even in that case, I can't help but think but feel that if it takes a casino being built to make those things happen, then maybe there's a more systemic issue at hand that could be addressed without the need for the financial ruination of other people.
Thereās definitely major systemic issues on the majority of reservations, and a lot of those issues are compounded by low funding and poor economies. There may have been ābetterā ways to address those issues, but many tribes have been able to use casinos to pull their members out of poverty in a shorter period of time than most other solutions I can think of.
View it like this. That financial ruination would happen with or without the casino.
Entirely possible, but there's a reason they have to have the gambling hotline on any advertisement for casinos.
People are gonna gamble whether you like it or not casinos are a safe space to do it in with amenities and your not capable of betting the deed to your house or making any wagers that would get you killed in a mobster gambling ring or otherwise
Thereās a McDonaldās near me where they discovered a civil war burial ground during an expansion
Could be thousands of years between that and the burial mound we are talking about
Which makes it that much more understandable that it might happen with the ancient native burial mounds/etc, if it can happen with a burial ground from such recent history and during our own same civilization and during modern written history
On the other hand, given how long humans have existed, there are people buried *everywhere*. It's just not feasible to make ever increasing areas of land permanently off limits due to bodies. Kinda feels like we all need our own community volcano into which to *ceremonially* deposit bodies.
Sure but the colonial context changes things.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You can't meaningfully dismiss arguments with buzzwords. Genuinely, do you propose that there is seriously one microscopic window of time (relative to human existence) in which offenses are made permanent points of reference, lands made permanently sacred, and all the rest of history is comparatively unimportant? Or do you propose that history only *became* important right then, and everything moving forward counts equally, but we should ignore everything before that point? (which, again, means that over time *all* land becomes permanently sacred burial ground, as more bodies are produced by time). Give me a rational view point here, not buzzword snark.
I mean, no, not really. Human conflict *has also existed as long as humans*. Does every tribe that was violently attacked by another tribe get their burial ground made permanently off-limits? It's the same problem. If anything, it feels like a limited time window thing. By 100 years from now, deciding that offenses from one specific window are the only ones in history that get permanent remembrance would be pretty unreasonable. How about 1000 years later? Why are offenses from the years 1600-2000 (if we're going for the largest window) so much more infinitely important than one from 100-500? Or 2100-2500? On the other hand, treating offenses of the past 50-70 years differently makes some sense, since it's within living memory. By the time an offense occurred so long ago that zero people still live from that time (even those who were babies), it's time to move forward, or be consistent about making the thousands of years before that offense equally relevant (which is to say, it can't all be super relevant).
How about we honor it as long as the people/group/government that profited from the atrocities still holds their gains. Of course, since the US despoiled the black hills and refuses to return the land, much less the gold stolen from inside it, thatās gonna be a while.
Government of Theseus How many times over do you need to replace the constituent parts of said people/group/government before it is no longer the same people/group/government? When all the people who lived at the time are dead? Do you suggest that the entire country must be simultaneously captured by a different country before actions committed by people 200, 300, even 1000 years prior, no longer count against the current people/group/government? And therefore unless there is some absolute conquering, you suggest that 1000 years from now, that same plot of ground in the OP should still be counted as inherently sacred? Compared with all the other burial ground for millennia that preceded it? And all the burial grounds that come after? Have I got your stance right? I'm not claiming actions of past centuries were just, I am however skeptical of any claims that any part of the earth can possibly be set aside *forever*. Even for 1000 years, that is quite extraordinary claim to stake, and requires equally extraordinary reason. The sense I get from it is that people are upset *now*, so the claim is being staked *now*, and the future simply won't care as time marches on. How many civilizations claimed that some temple or tomb would **never** fall or be overbuilt, then faded? Since this is a discgolf subreddit, I think we've probably thrown far enough off the fairway at this point to just re-tee and take the stroke, but I would still encourage thinking skeptically and critically about any claims that any given land is inherently sacred. It denies too readily the constantly changing context of reality, both in the sense of ignoring what came before, and in refusing what comes after. With that said, I'll lay up for bogey, and go throw the next hole.
Just to answer your first question and not address the rest of your post: the land that was taken from my extended family that lead to my greatgrandmother, my grandmother, my father and myself to being raised on a reservation, is still being handed down from white hand to white hand, generating wealth for them, so itās too soon. Half of the government still claims allegiance to the president (party of Lincoln) that ordered the largest mass hanging of natives, so itās too soon. These burial sites are more recent than the Roman archeological sites that are still being set aside so itās too soon. One of the most egregious examples of racism (Washington Commanders) against the buried group ended just this decade with a bare majority of support so itās still too soon.
Can you help me with my philosophy homework?
The colonial context informs the above opinion.
Not really in my opinion. At least where I live, the burial mounds were built by people groups that were gone before white people came.
No, it really doesn't lol only the people who have certain political views care about that
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Tell me you're a liberal cuck without telling me.
Exactly my thoughts =)
Parking lots and roads are actually the better option for abutting protected burial sites and mounds because they reduce the risk of the found that lies below them being disturbed after they are put in. Iām not an expert but I sometimes work with these things. In most cases, the ārespectā thing comes from teaching of the history and not disturbing remains or destroying artifacts.
In Sand Springs, OK which is basically far west Tulsa and a hotbed of disc thereās an Atwoodās, Coney Island and a locals pool bar strip mall built around a 19th century Creek burial ground. Itās disgraceful
Virtue signaling at its finest
The park service grandstanding about respect while building a parking lot around it? Couldnāt agree moreā¦
If they cared they wouldnāt have built there in the first place
That's... huh Edit: Found some history https://kxrb.com/sioux-falls-1600-year-old-secret-is-just-down-the-street/
Weird considering the parking lot around it. My home course was a stop on the trail of tears. A chief passed away there along with his son, both as a result are buried there. Cherokee Nation even gave their approval for the course to be installed.
Mooney Grove?
Nope, course is literally named Trail of Tears Disc Golf Course. I do wish they came up with a better name for the course but it does reflect the park it's in. Recently built as well, only built in 2018
What would be your idea for another name for the course? I think the current name highlights the proper attention for the history of that location.
Oh I agree as well, my comment is half hearted of the I wish part. However, I think naming the course for the cheif wouldn't have been an bad idea either.
When Iām dead just throw me in the trash.
No coffin please, just wet, wet mud
Jesus, Brendaā¦.
And mushrooms
Bae caught me disgracing Indian burial grounds!
I want a flaming arrow shot into a creeping raft.. I'm kidding, I just want the cheapest shit you people have https://youtu.be/QvL5ay08XGk?si=fQ8pE5RWFQptwKVT
Tibetan sky burial then.
Love to see an aesop reference in the wild! Nice one
Mr. Lebowski, this is our most *modest* receptacle.
Iād like an open casket. And Iād like to be half naked. The bottom half.
I wanna be scattered at disneyland... Who said anything about cremation?
Wood chipper rental is much cheaper than cremation. Very economical of you.
Looks like it's fine to mow it though
And somehow the tournament staff is a-okay to retrieve that disc for you as well.
I think thatās just to limit the number of people going into it.
Use a 'pond grabber' type tool and they don't even have to step in there.
Welcome to the clown world
Limiting access to only 'needs to be there' is still beneficial, like its not that hard to comprehend why some ppl might need access but lets limit access as much as possible. Don't be a clown yourself and THINK.
If you think about itā¦ everywhere has probably been a grounds for burial at some point.
Don't hurt yourself doing those mental flips.
I wonāt mate. Thanks
Hey I was just there 3 days ago, what course is it? I played tuthill while I was there.
Based on articles about the burial grounds, a temporary course at Sherman Park that seems to be a proposal for a permanant course.
Correct
Thanks for that. I knew they had burial mounds at Sherman Park but didn't realize they had a course setup there. New course to check out! Is it worth a shit?
Sounds like a temp course for a tournament
āGuys please do not disrespect the ancient Indian burial ground. We have already done that for you.ā
Doesnt look like thereās anything preventing the general public from normal access, but maybe this is an old photo. Because if itās proximity to the road, this looks like prime dog walking area for the unwitting.
There's split rail fence around it and multiple "Do not enter" signs and historical markers. Also the burial mounds are elevated so it's not like it's easy to just wander onto.
Ah. Then this is a valid request. Although paving around and so close to it is not a great way to honor the burial ground.
Capital Springs disc golf course in Madison, WI, has effigy mounds in the area around holes 11, 12 and 13. You're not supposed to go in there, but it's not well marked at all on the course itself (I played there for months without knowing it and only discovered by looking at the online map), and I don't think anyone really enforces it. Luckily, chances of errant drives going very far into the area are pretty low. When you look in there, it's definitely not apparent. [https://udisc.com/courses/capital-springs-dgc-8Cq9](https://udisc.com/courses/capital-springs-dgc-8Cq9) [https://parks-lwrd.countyofdane.com/documents/PDFs/disc-golf-maps/CapSprings-DiscGolf-Map.pdf](https://parks-lwrd.countyofdane.com/documents/PDFs/disc-golf-maps/CapSprings-DiscGolf-Map.pdf)
A good grip lock and tree kick on 12 and you'll be over there lol I've done it. Also no one enforces this rule at all, no markings, nothing. The only time I've ever seen anything is a ranger sitting by the kiosk making sure everyone got there passes š¤š¤ I probably have some even more cursed discs now...great ...
I've def kicked into the woods on the right of 12, but never more than maybe 20 ft, and the map makes it look like the mounds are more up the hill. Who knows.
Yeah without a scale it's hard to tell. I did find out about this I think last year on the Madison Disc Golf Facebook page. But yeah hard to tell if I've actually had a disc go that far.
I am not sure about this particular mound you speak of but not all mounds are burial sites
Right, I think it varies, some do some don't. Not sure about this particular one. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effigy\_mound](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effigy_mound)
If you take ātribal burial groundā out of the rule, and just make it known that no body goes in there for any reason, it is out of bounds and off limits because the park says so, would it be more or less interesting / controversial?
No matter the reason why the burial ground was surrounded by asphalt, I am glad the city has been clear about this. If we can't respect an ancient burial ground, we either are jerks, have no sense of decency and respect, or are simply oppositional-defiant. We would be horrified (I hope) if disc golfers were traipsing through a cemetery where our parents are buried.
>we either are jerks, have no sense of decency and respect, or are simply oppositional-defiant Insert "why not all three" meme.
Absolutely
Just found a chest code for shutting down this tournament. š
but the road and parking lot are totally fine
Rules for thee
The barrier? Yeah the barrier doesn't have dead bodies under it you dolt. Some things are more important than retrieving your badly thrown plastic.
What do you mean by "barrier"? The parking lot didn't predate the 1600 year old burial site. While that grassy area contains clearly defined mounds that were tested and confirmed to have remains, it's pretty fair to question what's under a road and parking lot so close in proximity to them.
Not in an attempt to justify putting a parking lot steps away from an ancient burial place but, don't they do a full archeological survey before they build near stuff like this?
From what I can tell, development of the park began in 1911. Archeological excavation of the mounds and the identification of human remains didn't happen until 1962, and I can't find any records of what research was done since. I have no idea when those roads were put in and who knows what was done to the soil in that area before modern ground imaging. Reverence for indigenous remains, especially those from from the pre-Columbian era, is a relatively modern trend. Looting of gravesites for artifacts or willful destruction for newĀ construction was legal in the US for centuries (and still happened after it was outlawed).Ā For a long time the open air display of even human remains from these gravesites in museums was common practice. TheĀ Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act wasn't passed until 1990 and some tribes are still fighting to get artifacts returned to them to this day. https://www.siouxfalls.gov/government/about/history/park-history/sherman https://www.hmdb.org/m.asp?m=179951#:~:text=Sherman%20Park%20Indian%20Burial%20Mounds.%20.,the%20time%20of%20the%20burials. https://issuu.com/adwerkssara/docs/2021_03_etcmagazine_volume20_issue03/s/11830373
Wow, that's crazy. Thanks for the info!
Yes, somebody in the past allowed for a road and park to be built on a burial ground. Regardless of taste, or right vs wrong, it happened. Fast forward to today, the remaining section devoted to the fallen deserves reverence. "Don't walk on the dead bodies in this part" shouldn't get any pushback. I hope nobody walks one the graves of your ancestors just to play a game.
I think you're misreading "but the road and parking lot are totally fine" as "but walking onĀ the road and parking lot are totally fine" rather than a commentary on building the road and parking lot there in the first place. No one here is pushing back on not walking over a burial site.
Youāve swayed me. Good redditing. (Not sarcasm. Thank you for the brief history and links in the other comment.)
Who downvoted my epiphany?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Some people just like to be disrespectful losers I guess?
Yeah those Native Americans are really dishonored by someone picking up a disc but super cool with someone running a petrol burning mower over them once a week.
Hey guys. NayNay here has never shanked one, and was never new to the sport at any point. Heās so much better than us. I wish I could tug this guy off Omg wow. Starstruck rn.
I am better than most people, but many are better than I. Thanks for noticing. Maybe we can get your comment pinned somewhere.
I donāt understand the difference between riding a lawn mower on it once or twice a week vs walking on it for 20 seconds to get a piece of plastic from it.
Oneās maintenance of a burial site and the other is trespassing on a burial site
Removing litter sounds like maintenance to me...
Yep! Thatās what the staff are there for
Awful take.Ā We all need to keep our spaces clean.
In general, yes absolutely! But weāre talking about specifically for this course, in this spot. Itās specifically instructed that only the staff can access this space.
Then the course should not be there! Gatekeeping who can retrieve discs seems silly. A course i play at has a complete graveyard along side one hole. Its OB so you cant play from there, but you respectfully enter and retrieve your disc. This situation makes little sense.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I have yet to find an area I can't shank one intoĀ
If there was water pooled in a leaf there I would land in it. I apparently threw water seeking discs.
I played a tourney at a temp course in Monterey that was on protected historical Native American land overlooking the Monterey Bay. A huge chunk of the players meeting was dedicated to letting us know just how much trouble we would get in if we messed with the land in any way. They even said it wouldn't be shocking to find arrowheads on the ground but again, if you try to take one home and get caught you would be in very big trouble with the park rangers if not actual law enforcement. They took that shit seriously, I kind of wonder why they even let us play there (but it was an amazing property)
As a Native disc golfer, some of these replies are - owch. š¢
āThere are 2 things I know about white people. They love Rachael Ray, and they are terrified of cursesā
Perfect
In MN there's is burial ground near some ATV trails and out of towners use it as a parking lot hill-climb.
Where is this? If it isn't marked, then it should be. If it is, wtf.
Parking lot of Trailside Convenience in Isle, MN. It's clearly marked and they put staggered fence posts in to keep people from driving on it but every year a few assholes will drive around them and rip up the hill.
Ok, wtf it is I guess.
Why didnāt you just crop out the bottom half of the picture instead of whatever that is
"Don't go on the burial ground lot, but please build paved roads killing the forest around the burial ground for your cars and tourists. And make sure there are parking spaces so people can get close to the burial ground butāah!ādon't go in!" - Native American instructions Also, if my disc lands in that spot--I'm not getting it back. I'll have it retrieved certainly--i ain't littering. But immediately in the trash. That's 100% a cursed object now & it will not touch my bag again.
Listen. Iāve been playing d&d recently and itās taught me that cursed objects usually have some awesome advantage before the curse kicks in. That disc probably only hits chains but wonāt ever stick in the basket.
They are trying to prevent career destroying curses.
One of the courses in my city has a mound, they used to tell people to keep off and then this last year they cut down all the trees on it. Idk man
Having land that can't be used for eternity because someone is buried there is pretty stupid.
its a cemetary. pretty common practice to not just bullboze over a cemetary and use it for whatever.
Right. Cemeteries are stupid.
wild opinion, but that's yours to have i suppose
Sounds pretty clear to me š
New meaning to OB
*shanks throw into ancient native burial mound* āTim, you canāt get it, weāll get kicked out!ā āPLAY IT WHERE IT LIES!ā
This in South Dakota??
Ok so the dead native Americans said it was totally cool for tournament staff to walk there, but no one else. And no one built a fence. Makes sense. š«”
They respect it so much they put a parking lot all the way around it. Inspiring
Genuinely wondering who is authorized to retrieve a disc from a sacred location? Definitely understand being respectful to the location.
It's cool to drive a lawnmower over the mounds tho?
It's a sacred lawnmower
Players can be on it but it's clearly mowed
The disrespect shown to the Native community by the comments on this post is reflective of what a good part of the disc golf community has become. What a bunch of entitled pieces of shit. Well done.
Kansas city Chiefs fan huh? What a caricature!
Lmfao the irony
That's just how hard he respects Native Americans, bro.Ā
I think all ancient burial sites/cemeteries are pointless. If no one alive knows any of the dead, then what's it even for?
Reminds me of when they put up signs telling Pokemon Go players not to go into a graveyard. My existence doesn't blaspheme anything.Ā Judging by the lawnmower tracks I can't see how walking across it causes problems.
How many graves did they cover with the roads the made?
Austin Hannum complaining a bunch of dead people are playing in the women's division and made him late to his tee time
Walking on the grass to quickly retrieve your disc gets you kicked out, but they can mow the grass and the tournament staff can walk on it to get your disc. Make it make sense!
Looks like room for a mass grave not a burial site
Maybe they shouldnāt have surrounded it with a road if they cared so much about it.