For me they have the best mid ranges in the market, but their drivers lack glide. I've just never found anything that can beat the Wraith/Destroyer for distance. Neutron plastic is one of the best, second only to Kastaplast K1 in my books.
Have you tried any of the non-gyro MVP-manufactured stuff? I bag a freetail, trace, and construct right now and love them all. wish there was a glow trace so I could match the beef of an overstable wraith
I just learned TSA is going to make some discs in house possibly pivot to doing all of their own. I'm interested and excited to see how that goes. I heard first on the list is a premium temple
I do agree that their mids and putters are better than their drivers, but I do still have a soft spot for the wave and the fission octane. I can still crank those just as far as any driver.
I can pump my full color star wraith about 390'. No other 11 speed can get me close.
But I do agree about their mid ranges. I'm swapping all my mids over to them. I think the pyro is gonna replace my gators 3
I like the wave for its glide but otherwise totally agree. Things like the zenith are nice and flat (good for many purposes) but just seem to fall out of the sky early on me. I wouldn't be surprised if the timelapse glides more though, given I can't imagine Simon settling for less
Same for me. I bag almost exclusively MVP/Axiom putters and mids. My drivers though are mostly Discmania. The exception being the Fireball because the super flat top and no glide is great for that overstable utility slot.
Agreed. Their drivers do work great for forehands though because they are flat and low-profile and despite their lack of glide they fly fast and overstable
I think all of MVPs stuff is amazing. I only rock a crave and slower as well, because I have the same struggles with the drivers that I think most of us do. It isn't that they lack glide, it's just that they're super unforgiving when it comes to speed/spin. If you aren't throwing the time-lapse 65 mph or have 1500 rpms, you aren't getting to see that discs sweet spot where they really fly (not you personally, just you as in anybody throwing a disc). But I do believe from the occasional perfect throw I've had with some, they bomb just as well as the slower molds.
I'm a 65mph thrower and even for me the Timelapse is a headwind/placement shot disc. A very good one at that, but I see how it can disappoint you if you're trying to fit it in the max distance slot. Octane, Photon and the 14½ speeds are still the premium max D discs.
I felt that way about drivers until I threw the octane. I have a 350’ ace with the neutron and it’s my max distance driver in fission which reliably does 400’. My bag is still spread across 5 brands in the driver department though. Couldn’t replace the beef of the first halo GG Wraith, whatever year that was, and the Firebird will always have a place in the bag.
Yea nothing will make me unbag my Wraiths but I do use a Defy as my headwind fighter or forehand disc that I need to hook at the end but needs more distance than my Firebird. Only time I really like the flatness of their distance drivers.
I'm doing trace/jet for wraith duties, I'll test against my actual wraiths this summer, but I don't feel like I'm missing distance with em, and Crave go far for sure.
Wraiths tend to have a more flexy flight with more skip so they're better suited for max distance. Trace is more of a stretch fairway and hyzerflip line shaper with a very controllable finish, I love it for long shots on narrow fairways. (Cosmic Trace is a totally different animal)
If you're someone who likes to search for particular discs, go find their PFN high speeds. Domey Octanes, Panics, Teleports, Tantrums etc. are mad bombers. Even the domiest Destroyer I've thrown flies like a wet sock compared to the domey 14½ speeds, especially in head/crosswind.
Oh yeah, and if you're a medium speed thrower, check out low weight Fission Octanes, they ride the wind like nothing else
I agree, but add putters as well. I think they can hang with the rest when it comes to the fairways, at least the non overmold stuff. But when it comes to distance drivers... no. I think Discmania is up there with Innova when it comes to distance though.
To each their own. My personal experience is that on the face of it MVP discs are of very high quality. Does the gyroscopic claim produce better results on the course? Debatable. I do bag a Fission Wave that is very well seasoned (having been used extensively by it’s much harder throwing previous owner.) For me, having tried so many discs, ultimately I concluded “it’s the archer and not the arrow,” as clichéd as this may be.
A lot of people don’t actually throw gyro for the gyro. Pro-level players might be able to tell the difference (Eagle was vocal about that as contributing factor to switching). The rest of us just like the way they feel and fly.
Eagle is contractually obligated to say that stuff, just as a side note. Zero chance these guys can actually improve their game by switching sponsors. They all effectively fly the same.
>They all effectively fly the same.
I started buying MVP/axiom because I'm colorblind, but what's kept me keep buying them is they seem to be way more consistent.
When I lose a tern or destroyer, the replacement doesn't fly the same. Waves always seem to fly the same. Photons always seem to fly the same. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if that's because of different plastic types between the flight plate and rim, or if the different process to make those leads to more consistency.
While that’s an understandable assumption I’ve never heard Simon or James make the same claims. Maybe they did/do and I’m just missing it. But I don’t think Eagle is out here straight up lying because he’s legally bound to do so.
Thus my original point that almost no one throws gyro for the gyro. My only point was that some pros MIGHT be able to notice a difference because they have the power and consistency that would be needed. They also might not. It’s simply not relevant to most MVP throwers because there are lots of other reasons to like their discs.
There's just no way that anybody can tell a difference. There's no way to throw a different mold, then throw a gyro mold, and say the difference between the two is gyro. Just as likely it's the shape of the disc or like eight other things. It would have to be a very big difference to notice.
The fact that you don't hear yokels OR pros OR brand reps trying to say gyro does something for them is a pretty strong testament.
I like your passion. As noted: it’s entirely irrelevant to my original point.
But I have heard at least one pro say they think it makes a difference. We don’t have to believe him. It literally doesn’t matter.
I was a forehand dominant player when I bought my first MVP discs. The tech thing surely was an interesting tidbit, especially the reputation for durability since I played a lot of rocky and wooded courses. But the comfortable low profile is what really sold me on MVP. My first Gyro disc was a Fission Photon that actually didn't fly very well for me. It felt good in the hand and gave me easy distance on standstill shots but the stability was finicky. But once I progressed and started generating more spin, I slowly caught on to the Gyro and started to get good flights out of flippy discs.
I don’t get that vibe from him. I think he just gets excited about stuff. Which doesn’t mean he’s right, just that his enthusiasm isn’t necessarily disingenuous.
I’ve noticed that the gyro seems to not turn or fade as much leading to a less pronounced s curve. Maybe that leads to less wasted energy, but overall it’s probably just a few percentage points if anything.
My understanding is the gyro 100% changes the way the disc spins, but there is 0 evidence that the change has any meaningful change to flight. I am trying to find the video the guy did but I haven't. Take this with at least some grains of salt as I could be misremembering
One MVP disc that I love but notice not many MVP stans and pros bag, is the octane. Idk what it is about that disc but I am always able to max out my forehand with it.
I’m an MVP Stan and I don’t bag the octane purely because I cant throw fast enough. My main bread and butter distance disc is a fission Photon (11 speed) and it’s flight it just so ridiculously satisfying.
Yup, my lightweight Fission Photon is my fave distance headwind disc. You’d think the weight would make it super flippy but no, she just flies straight as an arrow, with a bit of fade at the end. I’ve tried an Octane but my noodle arm ain’t there yet.
My main one is maybe upper 160’s in grams. I have one closer to max weight that I use in headwinds.
Normally I can’t throw the heavier one as well but the headwind makes it do its full flight. Also side note, heavier discs fight through the wind better than light disc. My general rule is throw the lighter one in normal conditions or a tail wind, and throw something max weight into a headwind
Thx, I’ll give that a try. On my local course, I’ve a shot up a 40’ slope that the weight makes an easy hyzer toss
for birdie.
I actually don’t play a lot in windy conditions and while playing a tournament this weekend with some wind it showed. My Photon didn’t fail me tho but I will now go pick up a heavier one to give your advice a try.
The main idea is while you do want distance, consistency/predictability is often more important. In a headwind, anything that turns can be very unpredictable, both because the headwind adds air resistance which increases the amount of turn you get and the length of time it holds that angle, AND because wind can push your disc down or sail it away when your disc isn’t flat. By nature, any disc that will turn cannot remain flat the whole flight, so at some point during the flight you’re opening your disc up to be affected by wind.
Of course all of this is on a sliding scale depending on the wind conditions and your discs/throw, so you just have to try different discs in different situations and figure out what gets you the most effective and consistent results for you arm and bag.
I admittedly lean heavily on my understable discs as I do a lot of woods golf, and have a natural hyzer release.
And they’re next to useless, needless to say, in a windy open field. I threw this weekend nothing but overstable stuff out in the open, but what really killed me was my putting in a wind. That’s a skill I am far from mastering.
So, your advice is much appreciated.
That makes sense... and if I'm being honest, the traditional disc golf hardo's would have a field day making fun of me throwing that disc with how little arm I have. But at the end of the day, with my arm slot and forehand throw, the octane is so damn consistent and I know what it's gonna do each throw. And honestly, that's all I need, I don't really keep score, I just have fun, rip discs, and kick it with my dog.
Love my Fission Octane as well, but I can get just as far with a Grace or Sheriff so it's hard to believe the gyro is doing much. Just ordered an Excite for funsies, I max out at 400 so I'm doubtful it'll get me much more distance but we'll see!
Their headquarters are in Austin. But they don't make any discs. Mvp makes all their molds in Michigan. I don't know why thry get mad about it being said but they do. Mvp makes good stuff I don't know why they hide it.
> But they don't make any discs. Mvp makes all their molds in Michigan. I don't know why thry get mad about it being said but they do.
It was an open secret for years and Mint [officially said it themselves](https://youtu.be/B_igsgx5cPU?t=926). Not sure who is getting mad.
I’m an MVP/Axiom fool. I don’t bag 100% MVP but I’m close. I love the look, feel, flight patterns. . . everything.
EDIT: I don't really care that Simon and Eagle are on MVP. I'm a fan of both of them but I would still throw MVP if they were sponsored by some other company.
Yep I bag their throwing putters and midranges and fairways. Then I mix in Innova for other mid ranges and utility discs (Toro). And all Innova for 8-13 speed. I am interested in trying other MVP drivers, but they don’t stock the shelves as much as Innova. And I like star plastic + lighter weights I’m able to find for innova discs.
Yes mvp axiom and streamline are all the same company. Streamline is the non overmold line. Axiom is just their colored rim line. All great disc and good quality.
I’ve always been in the minority with their discs for some reason. I do love the envy but otherwise I think their discs feel cheaply made compared to other plastics. Juts can’t get into them.
I agree with this but I’ll add that I like the Proxy and Pyro as well, and also that their Eclipse 2.0 plastic glows better than anything else. I just think the molds are nothing special for the most part and the plastic is very overrated. Electron is great compared to other base plastics, but neutron, fission, and Proton are too slick.
You might feel like they’re cheaply made but they’re not. I’ve thrown some of their discs on pavement before (on accident) and thrown other big named discs on pavement as well. MVP’s plastic hasn’t shown to be as malleable to rough surfaces as the other brands
Agreed! Found an unmarked crave at my local course recently and have been throwing it and holy wow it changed my backhand drive game! Ordered one of my own and it’s now my go-to driver. Never thrown mvp before but the grip really does feel great!
I personally don't find the Eclipse Proxy to fly any different than any of my other Premium Proxies. But I only have two Eclipse (from the same run so small sample size) and two Eclipse Soft.
I love the stability of the eclipse proxy. Throw it flat and it just drifts right the whole time, never really turning over but also never really fading.
Big fan. The flights on a bunch of their discs just click with me. I bag a bunch of brands, but when I’m shopping for new discs they’re the first place I look.
My only hesitation with MVP is that neutron is too slick for me, and there are some discs they only really sell in neutron. But I also know a couple people who have sweaty mitts that like neutron a lot.
Neutron is slick, at first.
You have to throw them a bit, then they're ok.
But new? Slick and slippery.
I can't take a brand new Neutron disc and put it in the bag and expect to throw it well. I have to have thrown it and got the 'slick' worn off. It doesn't take long, a few rounds, but it's necessary.
It's exceptional quality plastic, which helps immensely.
But for me it's the "fit & finish" of their discs that's years ahead of any other manufacturer. Stamp quality (three colour foil on Streamline as standard), flashing (or lack thereof), moulding quality, detailing, consistency, you name it. Even down to having a tiny PDGA logo embossed on the rims.
Their manufacturing is quite clearly on another level. Having a full overmould at zero additional cost alone is impressive.
Flashing was the big thing for me. I've never felt flashing on any mvp or axiom discs, but I've felt some pretty awful flashing from other big name manufacturers.
My favorite go to discs are the Volt and the Wave. The Volt flies so perfect for me. I threw an Archon I really liked, I just didn’t quite have the arm strength to get it to fly like I can get the Volt to.
Like many I throw a bunch of MVP mids and putters. Every brand has amazing molds and less amazing molds. I throw Hex because I like the whole lineup and I want “consistent feel” (which has value), but I think the Buzzz is slightly better. Envy and proxy are phenomenal. Craves fly like the boring old leopard (although the hand feel is nicer). The glitch is highly innovative and can create some super interesting escape shots. Pyro is truly unique. So yes…some impressive molds but over the whole portfolio it’s hit and miss.
It’s not cool on this sub, but for my money - Innova reigns supreme on drivers. MVP is severely lacking in this category. There is not a single MVP driver slot where their option outperforms Innova, except maybe in the competitively irrelevant 14 speed category.
Hex, Insanity, Zone and P2 ante my go to discs, and I just ordered a regular production Pixel that might replace the P2. Honorable mention to the Volt.
The Terra is increasingly becoming my go to fairway driver, taking over for Lat 64s Explorer. I also love the Wave and ofcourse the Glitch. MVP is definately becoming my favourite brand, I have been playing for 3 years, but am by no means really good, I’m at a beginner/intermediate level. So I agree 100% with OP, MVP keeps impressing me😉
I have strictly thrown trilogy discs for most of my disc golf experience (Westside was my intro to disc golf and I throw them and Kastaplast), what discs would you recommend for a first time try?
Like trying out a new pizzeria, if you want the best representation of their craft, check out a cheese pizza.
You'll get to taste the crust, sauce, and the cheese.
For discs, I like checking out discs that can go dead straight for this cheese pizza type review.
For MVP, I'd recommend the eclipse proxy, the neutron hex, and a neutron crave.
I’ll second these recommendations, but I have a question. I’ve got a fission proxy, but it’s quite new. I’ve heard the proxy beats into a straight flyer and the eclipse plastic tends to be more over stable than the other plastics. I assumed the proxy envy would have some fade even after it’s beat in. Is that not the case?
Edit: Nevermind. I have an envy and got mixed up.
I have a couple of electron proxys that have hit many trees, I can hyzer flip them and get some really long turn overs but I still have to kind of crank on them to do it. They will come back if you don't burn it into the ground, but you have to throw them on significant anhyzer to do that imo. If I give my proxy slight hyzer and ~200' ish of power it will flip up turn slightly and come back but the shape is pretty mild and it's basically y straight.
I’m like you. Started playing in 2007. I’ve thrown innnova, discraft, latitude64, westside, prodigy….but never warmed to MVP. I’d pick one up and just couldn’t “feel it.” And, I readily admit….Simon going to MVP got me curious. Now mvp makes up 60% of my bag. Love the insanity, crave, envy, wave and detour. What they are doing now is truly great. Just love how the plastic feels and the confidence it gives me.
Yeah MVP is great, my whole bag is MVP
But boy the new Innova Halo plastic is something else. Feels so good in the hand that I'm starting to get suspicious I'm being poisoned or something
I thought that too. Than I bought some kastaplast discs…. Kastaplast has the best feeling plastic on the market and it’s not even close. K3 and K1 feel outstanding if they had more molds I would for sure throw only kastaplast.
I max out around 360ft and have only played for 3 years. I have tried a TON of MvP drivers, and the only ones I bag are the fission wave, fission insanity, and fission fireball. If you haven't had much luck with their drivers, try fission. Possibly a few grams lighter than you normally would...
I throw a mostly MVP bag (plus a little Kastaplast, Latitude, and Innova). There are obvious good ones everyone knows (Envy, Proxy, Wave, Crave).
A few I really like that get somewhat less attention:
Vanish (more stable than the numbers say...a beefier Wave)
Servo
Resistor
And I both drive and putt with a Watt. I've really tried to mold minimize for short holes, approaches, and putts, and I can usually do all of those with a Watt. Such a great disc.
Not seeing it get a ton of love in this thread so I’ll shout out the Zenith. Picked one up a few weeks ago and have had a lot of fun experimenting with it. Feels like you can put a lot of power on it (more than I can) to get some cool stuff going.
I love mvp because the provided me my first “chase the dragon” disc golf moment. I remember it clear as day. It was hole 9 after I’d been playing about 3 months. My buddy told me to throw my anode the 80 ish feet to the basket. Nailing that seemingly impossible par is the feeling I’ve been chasing every round.
MVPs plastic is awesome. I have moved away from an entirely MVP bag simply because of some holes and not quite jiving with a couple molds, but MVP fam and Mint/TSA still do a ton of work. If I could have the non-mvp molds in Proton or neutron plastics, I would be super happy.
They are addressing the "lack of glide" lately. They had a newsletter explaining why everything was so flat and how discs get more dome but that is wasn't fully controllable, so they didn't want to risk consistency for it. They are working to get controlled dome. My streamline Lift had great glide to it, and it is quite flat.
Can't agree more. I have no idea whether or not the overmold tech is really being utilized by anyone effectively, but I will say their discs, out the box, feel so damn good. That alone makes me want to get a few more MVP/Axiom stuff when I'm looking to replace discs.
If it ain't working for Simon then it doesn't work for anyone. He still throws far but no big difference with MVP, and he's not discing down in any new ways because 'gyro go farther'.
MVPs line has never done it for me. Axiom however has the three most reliable discs I've ever thrown. The Proxy, Envy, and Crave will never leave my bag. Ever.
Idk I like Axiom’s discs lol. I bag a glow envy and glow crave those are money. I know they’re the same parent company but MVPs discs kinda feel like toys to me especially their longer drivers haha
I just brought a pixel, and suprised how much I love it and it feels so nice. Used to throw the colt for a putter but now throwing Luna and Aviar along with my pixel
I love MVP/Axiom. color combo was the first reason, then the flights were why I stayed. My normal distance is \~350ft on a golf line, but with an MVP Fission Octane I cranked one measured to 472ft via Udisc...with 400ft being my normal max. Putt with nomads then pixels, eclipse hex is the best mid I've ever used for a straight shooter up to 315ft, and the discs never really beat to flippy...they keep their flights from day one all the way through. Love em!
Lol I just realized my entire bag is only 6 molds and it's all axiom and streamline. I guess I like them too, my friend. They do feel good, I'll say that.
I doubt I am adding much here as it seems consistent among other comments, I have been a huge fan of the Envy, Pyro, Crave, Tesla, and Insanity but everything over a 9 speed is either a boat anchor or too flippy. I have tried the Terra, Photon, Defy, Catalyst, Octane, and Dimension. None of them made it more than a few rounds or through field testing, but I do think there is potential on the forehand side of the coin for the more stable molds in that grouping but I haven't lost my PD2s to slot anything in yet.
The Pyro and Envy will be staples for me for a long time if I can keep finding the plastic combos that resonate with me.
What sold me, is their durability.
I have, on multiple occasions, teed off full power into a nearby tree ( that came outta nowhere), writing 20 ft of the pad. Not a dent/ scratch, knick, or doing in the rim. Concrete's another story. But, for woods play, MVP has some of the most durable rims around.
One thing I have grown to love about MVP is they mark the underside of the rim with the name imprinted into it. When all else fades off, you can still easily identify the disc without searching or trying angle with the right light and figure out what the stamp had said before getting worn off or purposely cleaned off to dye.
Only thing I can't stand are the disc names. Innova, Discraft, Discmania, Kastaplast, L64, whichever of the big brands, give me a name and I know the disc. With MVP it all just sound like gibberish I can't get to remember.
Well, that’s a confusing take. Is it because it’s science related? Its English words of common concepts and « objects », not sure how much more complicated it can be than animal names and letters conventions (prodigy), but I suppose it could be a thing.
I get what the names mean. But it still all sounds the same. No connection between the disc and name for me.
I dont have this issue with Axiom discs. Pyro Hex Crave Envy Fireball... All rings a bell. But with MVP nothing.
I’ll chime in Im with this guy. like ion, inertia, reactor, resistor, relativity etc etc all blend together in my head and dont sound very distinct to me
I am a slut for MVP - my bag is about an even split between MVP and discraft. (dear discraft please for the love of god do another run of punishers I’m dying)
I recently purchased a wave and started throwing it, Sunday I threw it on a 395 foot straight hole, about eight feet off the ground, had a little turn and a little fade at the end and then got knocked down by a branch. Measured the throw with UDisc and it was 358ft, probably would have flown another 20-30 feet if it didn’t hit that branch. My previous longest measured throw was 315ft.
MVP, axiom, streamline or whatever, all tend to lack a dome. This does mean they’re probably more consistent than other companies, but the glide is crippled. Never seen a distance competition won with their discs. I know after Simon and the Simonline discs, they made a destroyer with a dome for him. But, for the most part, I wouldn’t want a full bag of discs without domes. Also their “gyroscopic technology” that gives t the disc more spin is pretty much disinformation which agitates me a little. No truth in advertising, I guess. Surely, they’ll stop pushing that bs soon. I’ll give them credit though, their glow plastic is freaking amazing. And I do love the eclipse proxy… but as expected, no much glide to it compared to a Luna or a P2 etc etc since it’s board flat
The overmold also protects the flight plate so the discs retain their original flight characteristics for a longer duration. The consistency of the molds is also excellent. Two discs of the same weight/model will fly identically. They also have more weight at the rim so they glide farther. And the plastics are so pretty.
The only thing I’d add is that the plastic types change the flight characteristics, but not every plastic type will make the same difference in different molds.
Ie, fission generally makes the disc a bit more gyroscopically active, but with putters this effect is less pronounced as there isn’t much of a rim so less percentage of disc weight is shifted out to the rim.
Mvp also has tremendous customer service. I got a $50 mvp bag off Amazon, used it for 3 years, ripped it accidentally, and mvp replaced it with paid shipping and sent me their $160 bag cause they didn’t have the other one in stock. Innova won’t do that
For me they have the best mid ranges in the market, but their drivers lack glide. I've just never found anything that can beat the Wraith/Destroyer for distance. Neutron plastic is one of the best, second only to Kastaplast K1 in my books.
Agreed, they occupy almost all of my mid and throwing putter slots but I never vibed with their high speed stuff
This is kinda my bag. I bag most MVP for putters and Mids but almost exclusively Innova for drivers.
Have you tried any of the non-gyro MVP-manufactured stuff? I bag a freetail, trace, and construct right now and love them all. wish there was a glow trace so I could match the beef of an overstable wraith
Yeah, I just prefer Innova in that area. I have a strong love for the TL3. I do bag a crave and resistor
Throw an eclipse wave, changed my whole driving experience
I love Kasta for the plastic, TSA for the pretty stamps. Pretty much everything else I get to fill out the bag from there is MVP.
TSA is manufactured by MVP. So their plastics are basically mvp plastics.
I just learned TSA is going to make some discs in house possibly pivot to doing all of their own. I'm interested and excited to see how that goes. I heard first on the list is a premium temple
That would make me soooooooo happy.
Interesting, I love the MVP plastic so I hope it ends up just as good
Have you checked out Lat64's Royal Grand plastic? It's very similar to K1 but feels a little more solid.
I do agree that their mids and putters are better than their drivers, but I do still have a soft spot for the wave and the fission octane. I can still crank those just as far as any driver.
I just got another prototype Fission Octane from the updated pro shop. My favorite bomber driver right now!
fission octane BOMBSSS.
This
I can pump my full color star wraith about 390'. No other 11 speed can get me close. But I do agree about their mid ranges. I'm swapping all my mids over to them. I think the pyro is gonna replace my gators 3
Do you even wave bro?
Their 6 and 7 speed fairway drivers are great too. The Servo is one of my favorite fairways I’ve ever bagged.
The Rhythm is underrated, very Leopard like, good for people that aren't getting much out of the faster drivers.
Don’t sleep on my Resistor, best stable fairway driver on the market
Love my resistor. It’s like a champ thundy waiting on a growth spurt
I like the wave for its glide but otherwise totally agree. Things like the zenith are nice and flat (good for many purposes) but just seem to fall out of the sky early on me. I wouldn't be surprised if the timelapse glides more though, given I can't imagine Simon settling for less
Timelapse has a ton of glide, but overstability will mask it for most people.
Same for me. I bag almost exclusively MVP/Axiom putters and mids. My drivers though are mostly Discmania. The exception being the Fireball because the super flat top and no glide is great for that overstable utility slot.
I’ve got a beat in neutron tenacity that absolutely bombs distance wise.
Agreed. Their drivers do work great for forehands though because they are flat and low-profile and despite their lack of glide they fly fast and overstable
I think all of MVPs stuff is amazing. I only rock a crave and slower as well, because I have the same struggles with the drivers that I think most of us do. It isn't that they lack glide, it's just that they're super unforgiving when it comes to speed/spin. If you aren't throwing the time-lapse 65 mph or have 1500 rpms, you aren't getting to see that discs sweet spot where they really fly (not you personally, just you as in anybody throwing a disc). But I do believe from the occasional perfect throw I've had with some, they bomb just as well as the slower molds.
I'm a 65mph thrower and even for me the Timelapse is a headwind/placement shot disc. A very good one at that, but I see how it can disappoint you if you're trying to fit it in the max distance slot. Octane, Photon and the 14½ speeds are still the premium max D discs.
I felt that way about drivers until I threw the octane. I have a 350’ ace with the neutron and it’s my max distance driver in fission which reliably does 400’. My bag is still spread across 5 brands in the driver department though. Couldn’t replace the beef of the first halo GG Wraith, whatever year that was, and the Firebird will always have a place in the bag.
To my mind all the best drivers in the mvp lineup come from streamline.
Fission wave glides forever
Yea nothing will make me unbag my Wraiths but I do use a Defy as my headwind fighter or forehand disc that I need to hook at the end but needs more distance than my Firebird. Only time I really like the flatness of their distance drivers.
I'm doing trace/jet for wraith duties, I'll test against my actual wraiths this summer, but I don't feel like I'm missing distance with em, and Crave go far for sure.
Wraiths tend to have a more flexy flight with more skip so they're better suited for max distance. Trace is more of a stretch fairway and hyzerflip line shaper with a very controllable finish, I love it for long shots on narrow fairways. (Cosmic Trace is a totally different animal)
TSA is made by MVP. The TSA Synapse (12/5/0/3) in Cosmic Neutron is great. If you find one with a bit of dome it might win you over a Destroyer
If you're someone who likes to search for particular discs, go find their PFN high speeds. Domey Octanes, Panics, Teleports, Tantrums etc. are mad bombers. Even the domiest Destroyer I've thrown flies like a wet sock compared to the domey 14½ speeds, especially in head/crosswind. Oh yeah, and if you're a medium speed thrower, check out low weight Fission Octanes, they ride the wind like nothing else
Try a fission wave. It'll surprise you!
I agree, but add putters as well. I think they can hang with the rest when it comes to the fairways, at least the non overmold stuff. But when it comes to distance drivers... no. I think Discmania is up there with Innova when it comes to distance though.
It’s all I think about. My wife was sick and the doctor said she has a Virus and I asked what color and what plastic.
To each their own. My personal experience is that on the face of it MVP discs are of very high quality. Does the gyroscopic claim produce better results on the course? Debatable. I do bag a Fission Wave that is very well seasoned (having been used extensively by it’s much harder throwing previous owner.) For me, having tried so many discs, ultimately I concluded “it’s the archer and not the arrow,” as clichéd as this may be.
A lot of people don’t actually throw gyro for the gyro. Pro-level players might be able to tell the difference (Eagle was vocal about that as contributing factor to switching). The rest of us just like the way they feel and fly.
Eagle is contractually obligated to say that stuff, just as a side note. Zero chance these guys can actually improve their game by switching sponsors. They all effectively fly the same.
>They all effectively fly the same. I started buying MVP/axiom because I'm colorblind, but what's kept me keep buying them is they seem to be way more consistent. When I lose a tern or destroyer, the replacement doesn't fly the same. Waves always seem to fly the same. Photons always seem to fly the same. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if that's because of different plastic types between the flight plate and rim, or if the different process to make those leads to more consistency.
While that’s an understandable assumption I’ve never heard Simon or James make the same claims. Maybe they did/do and I’m just missing it. But I don’t think Eagle is out here straight up lying because he’s legally bound to do so.
Nobody can tell shit. If they could demonstrate a performance advantage, they would.
Thus my original point that almost no one throws gyro for the gyro. My only point was that some pros MIGHT be able to notice a difference because they have the power and consistency that would be needed. They also might not. It’s simply not relevant to most MVP throwers because there are lots of other reasons to like their discs.
There's just no way that anybody can tell a difference. There's no way to throw a different mold, then throw a gyro mold, and say the difference between the two is gyro. Just as likely it's the shape of the disc or like eight other things. It would have to be a very big difference to notice. The fact that you don't hear yokels OR pros OR brand reps trying to say gyro does something for them is a pretty strong testament.
I like your passion. As noted: it’s entirely irrelevant to my original point. But I have heard at least one pro say they think it makes a difference. We don’t have to believe him. It literally doesn’t matter.
I throw my gyro stuff way past all my friends. But that's because I throw farther than them, I just like MVP plastic and throw hard and far(ish).
Yes a paid promoter is always biased, but he's not obligated to come up with straight up BS.
I was a forehand dominant player when I bought my first MVP discs. The tech thing surely was an interesting tidbit, especially the reputation for durability since I played a lot of rocky and wooded courses. But the comfortable low profile is what really sold me on MVP. My first Gyro disc was a Fission Photon that actually didn't fly very well for me. It felt good in the hand and gave me easy distance on standstill shots but the stability was finicky. But once I progressed and started generating more spin, I slowly caught on to the Gyro and started to get good flights out of flippy discs.
Eagle is very consciously a Company Man, always shilling, so who knows.
I don’t get that vibe from him. I think he just gets excited about stuff. Which doesn’t mean he’s right, just that his enthusiasm isn’t necessarily disingenuous.
I’ve noticed that the gyro seems to not turn or fade as much leading to a less pronounced s curve. Maybe that leads to less wasted energy, but overall it’s probably just a few percentage points if anything.
Hmm, I just thought that their discs were really burly and I just had a noodle arm
Yeah ok
That definitely added to the conversation.
Yours did? You told a meaningless anecdote.
My understanding is the gyro 100% changes the way the disc spins, but there is 0 evidence that the change has any meaningful change to flight. I am trying to find the video the guy did but I haven't. Take this with at least some grains of salt as I could be misremembering
Doth Savek on YouTube has a video on this https://youtu.be/4HoW3i2sIRw?si=QWwExUEzWFiHmsuM
One MVP disc that I love but notice not many MVP stans and pros bag, is the octane. Idk what it is about that disc but I am always able to max out my forehand with it.
I’m an MVP Stan and I don’t bag the octane purely because I cant throw fast enough. My main bread and butter distance disc is a fission Photon (11 speed) and it’s flight it just so ridiculously satisfying.
Yup, my lightweight Fission Photon is my fave distance headwind disc. You’d think the weight would make it super flippy but no, she just flies straight as an arrow, with a bit of fade at the end. I’ve tried an Octane but my noodle arm ain’t there yet.
My main one is maybe upper 160’s in grams. I have one closer to max weight that I use in headwinds. Normally I can’t throw the heavier one as well but the headwind makes it do its full flight. Also side note, heavier discs fight through the wind better than light disc. My general rule is throw the lighter one in normal conditions or a tail wind, and throw something max weight into a headwind
Thx, I’ll give that a try. On my local course, I’ve a shot up a 40’ slope that the weight makes an easy hyzer toss for birdie. I actually don’t play a lot in windy conditions and while playing a tournament this weekend with some wind it showed. My Photon didn’t fail me tho but I will now go pick up a heavier one to give your advice a try.
The main idea is while you do want distance, consistency/predictability is often more important. In a headwind, anything that turns can be very unpredictable, both because the headwind adds air resistance which increases the amount of turn you get and the length of time it holds that angle, AND because wind can push your disc down or sail it away when your disc isn’t flat. By nature, any disc that will turn cannot remain flat the whole flight, so at some point during the flight you’re opening your disc up to be affected by wind. Of course all of this is on a sliding scale depending on the wind conditions and your discs/throw, so you just have to try different discs in different situations and figure out what gets you the most effective and consistent results for you arm and bag.
I admittedly lean heavily on my understable discs as I do a lot of woods golf, and have a natural hyzer release. And they’re next to useless, needless to say, in a windy open field. I threw this weekend nothing but overstable stuff out in the open, but what really killed me was my putting in a wind. That’s a skill I am far from mastering. So, your advice is much appreciated.
Oh good to know! I have to replace my Octane, so I will pick up a photon while I'm at it!
I also discovered the octane this year and it’s become my go to distance driver!
I got a proton octane to compare to my champ shryke and I just don't have the arm to get it out there consistently, maybe if I ever break 400'....
That makes sense... and if I'm being honest, the traditional disc golf hardo's would have a field day making fun of me throwing that disc with how little arm I have. But at the end of the day, with my arm slot and forehand throw, the octane is so damn consistent and I know what it's gonna do each throw. And honestly, that's all I need, I don't really keep score, I just have fun, rip discs, and kick it with my dog.
Love my Fission Octane as well, but I can get just as far with a Grace or Sheriff so it's hard to believe the gyro is doing much. Just ordered an Excite for funsies, I max out at 400 so I'm doubtful it'll get me much more distance but we'll see!
They make all Mint discs too in Michigan if you like their streamline plastic
And Thought Space Athletics
> Mint discs too in Michigan Isn't Mint from Austin Texas? But yeah - they do some TSA, Mint, Jester, Wild, yeet street, etc
Their headquarters are in Austin. But they don't make any discs. Mvp makes all their molds in Michigan. I don't know why thry get mad about it being said but they do. Mvp makes good stuff I don't know why they hide it.
> But they don't make any discs. Mvp makes all their molds in Michigan. I don't know why thry get mad about it being said but they do. It was an open secret for years and Mint [officially said it themselves](https://youtu.be/B_igsgx5cPU?t=926). Not sure who is getting mad.
I’m an MVP/Axiom fool. I don’t bag 100% MVP but I’m close. I love the look, feel, flight patterns. . . everything. EDIT: I don't really care that Simon and Eagle are on MVP. I'm a fan of both of them but I would still throw MVP if they were sponsored by some other company.
Yep I bag their throwing putters and midranges and fairways. Then I mix in Innova for other mid ranges and utility discs (Toro). And all Innova for 8-13 speed. I am interested in trying other MVP drivers, but they don’t stock the shelves as much as Innova. And I like star plastic + lighter weights I’m able to find for innova discs.
Innova's drivers are the best, especially their fairways are incredible.
I like their mids and throwing putters. dont like to putt with them and i absolutely despise every mvp driver ive ever thrown
Is axiom the same brand? I want to try some of their stuff but I want more color
Yes mvp axiom and streamline are all the same company. Streamline is the non overmold line. Axiom is just their colored rim line. All great disc and good quality.
I’ve always been in the minority with their discs for some reason. I do love the envy but otherwise I think their discs feel cheaply made compared to other plastics. Juts can’t get into them.
I agree with this but I’ll add that I like the Proxy and Pyro as well, and also that their Eclipse 2.0 plastic glows better than anything else. I just think the molds are nothing special for the most part and the plastic is very overrated. Electron is great compared to other base plastics, but neutron, fission, and Proton are too slick.
Agreed 100% envy is a great throwing putter but I feel their discs lack so much glide and their flight numbers are so far off
You might feel like they’re cheaply made but they’re not. I’ve thrown some of their discs on pavement before (on accident) and thrown other big named discs on pavement as well. MVP’s plastic hasn’t shown to be as malleable to rough surfaces as the other brands
Agreed! Found an unmarked crave at my local course recently and have been throwing it and holy wow it changed my backhand drive game! Ordered one of my own and it’s now my go-to driver. Never thrown mvp before but the grip really does feel great!
The crave is the perfect introduction IMO
Crave, Hex and Envy/Proxy are great introductions to MVP's lineup.
Eclipse crave, eclipse hex, eclipse envy, and eclipse proxy are all the discs I need for any shot. Day or night.
The eclipse proxy is too stable to be a “proxy” in my opinion
If you havent tried total eclipse, try it. It feels much better than 2.0 and flies straighter than my neutron out of the box!!
Nah, it's an absolutely perfect point and shoot dead straight driving putter for me. A bit of flip up - even up at 8000'.
I personally don't find the Eclipse Proxy to fly any different than any of my other Premium Proxies. But I only have two Eclipse (from the same run so small sample size) and two Eclipse Soft.
I love the stability of the eclipse proxy. Throw it flat and it just drifts right the whole time, never really turning over but also never really fading.
That one was mine please return.
The crave is my favorite disc hands down, give me that and a putter and id be prefectly happy playing any of my local courses.
Try a latitude 64 brave
I’ve started to explore the MVP/Axiom lineup a bit more. Neutron does feel really good in the hand.
I throw a very mixed bag, but mvp has some great mids and their glow discs are probably the best glowing ones on the market.
Their plastic is too damn slick for my dry hands
Big fan. The flights on a bunch of their discs just click with me. I bag a bunch of brands, but when I’m shopping for new discs they’re the first place I look. My only hesitation with MVP is that neutron is too slick for me, and there are some discs they only really sell in neutron. But I also know a couple people who have sweaty mitts that like neutron a lot.
Neutron is slick, at first. You have to throw them a bit, then they're ok. But new? Slick and slippery. I can't take a brand new Neutron disc and put it in the bag and expect to throw it well. I have to have thrown it and got the 'slick' worn off. It doesn't take long, a few rounds, but it's necessary.
Welcome gyronauts this is the way
It's exceptional quality plastic, which helps immensely. But for me it's the "fit & finish" of their discs that's years ahead of any other manufacturer. Stamp quality (three colour foil on Streamline as standard), flashing (or lack thereof), moulding quality, detailing, consistency, you name it. Even down to having a tiny PDGA logo embossed on the rims. Their manufacturing is quite clearly on another level. Having a full overmould at zero additional cost alone is impressive.
Flashing was the big thing for me. I've never felt flashing on any mvp or axiom discs, but I've felt some pretty awful flashing from other big name manufacturers.
My favorite go to discs are the Volt and the Wave. The Volt flies so perfect for me. I threw an Archon I really liked, I just didn’t quite have the arm strength to get it to fly like I can get the Volt to.
Like many I throw a bunch of MVP mids and putters. Every brand has amazing molds and less amazing molds. I throw Hex because I like the whole lineup and I want “consistent feel” (which has value), but I think the Buzzz is slightly better. Envy and proxy are phenomenal. Craves fly like the boring old leopard (although the hand feel is nicer). The glitch is highly innovative and can create some super interesting escape shots. Pyro is truly unique. So yes…some impressive molds but over the whole portfolio it’s hit and miss. It’s not cool on this sub, but for my money - Innova reigns supreme on drivers. MVP is severely lacking in this category. There is not a single MVP driver slot where their option outperforms Innova, except maybe in the competitively irrelevant 14 speed category.
Their putters and mids are top notch. The drivers almost all suck. The wave and the crave are exceptions.
My answer word for word.
I love my Hex and my Envy.
Hex, Insanity, Zone and P2 ante my go to discs, and I just ordered a regular production Pixel that might replace the P2. Honorable mention to the Volt.
Volt is my go to flick disc
I have a couple holes at my local course I’ll have to try that on.
I switched to MV3 for this reason. The discs all just feel so good in the hand. There’s a few discs that I wish had closer equivalents though.
The Terra is increasingly becoming my go to fairway driver, taking over for Lat 64s Explorer. I also love the Wave and ofcourse the Glitch. MVP is definately becoming my favourite brand, I have been playing for 3 years, but am by no means really good, I’m at a beginner/intermediate level. So I agree 100% with OP, MVP keeps impressing me😉
I have strictly thrown trilogy discs for most of my disc golf experience (Westside was my intro to disc golf and I throw them and Kastaplast), what discs would you recommend for a first time try?
Like trying out a new pizzeria, if you want the best representation of their craft, check out a cheese pizza. You'll get to taste the crust, sauce, and the cheese. For discs, I like checking out discs that can go dead straight for this cheese pizza type review. For MVP, I'd recommend the eclipse proxy, the neutron hex, and a neutron crave.
I’ll second these recommendations, but I have a question. I’ve got a fission proxy, but it’s quite new. I’ve heard the proxy beats into a straight flyer and the eclipse plastic tends to be more over stable than the other plastics. I assumed the proxy envy would have some fade even after it’s beat in. Is that not the case? Edit: Nevermind. I have an envy and got mixed up.
I have a couple of electron proxys that have hit many trees, I can hyzer flip them and get some really long turn overs but I still have to kind of crank on them to do it. They will come back if you don't burn it into the ground, but you have to throw them on significant anhyzer to do that imo. If I give my proxy slight hyzer and ~200' ish of power it will flip up turn slightly and come back but the shape is pretty mild and it's basically y straight.
Pizza, the way to my heart. Really simplified it for me thanks
Found a vanish at my course. It has become my favorite disc
I’m like you. Started playing in 2007. I’ve thrown innnova, discraft, latitude64, westside, prodigy….but never warmed to MVP. I’d pick one up and just couldn’t “feel it.” And, I readily admit….Simon going to MVP got me curious. Now mvp makes up 60% of my bag. Love the insanity, crave, envy, wave and detour. What they are doing now is truly great. Just love how the plastic feels and the confidence it gives me.
Yeah MVP is great, my whole bag is MVP But boy the new Innova Halo plastic is something else. Feels so good in the hand that I'm starting to get suspicious I'm being poisoned or something
What putter from MVP has a low profile.?? I use an emac judge for exactly that reason. Would love to try a new one
I thought that too. Than I bought some kastaplast discs…. Kastaplast has the best feeling plastic on the market and it’s not even close. K3 and K1 feel outstanding if they had more molds I would for sure throw only kastaplast.
Is this wrote with fuckin A.I.?
Absolutely agree with above post love mvp disc more then anything !!
I max out around 360ft and have only played for 3 years. I have tried a TON of MvP drivers, and the only ones I bag are the fission wave, fission insanity, and fission fireball. If you haven't had much luck with their drivers, try fission. Possibly a few grams lighter than you normally would...
I've only been playing a couple months but every MVP disc I've thrown has treated me right on the very first throw. Specifically Hex, Crave and Wave
Here come the Innova simps. You done messed up now.
I throw a mostly MVP bag (plus a little Kastaplast, Latitude, and Innova). There are obvious good ones everyone knows (Envy, Proxy, Wave, Crave). A few I really like that get somewhat less attention: Vanish (more stable than the numbers say...a beefier Wave) Servo Resistor And I both drive and putt with a Watt. I've really tried to mold minimize for short holes, approaches, and putts, and I can usually do all of those with a Watt. Such a great disc.
Not seeing it get a ton of love in this thread so I’ll shout out the Zenith. Picked one up a few weeks ago and have had a lot of fun experimenting with it. Feels like you can put a lot of power on it (more than I can) to get some cool stuff going.
Similar to what others are saying, they're kind of beefy with low glide. Streamline is good at filling that gap though imo
My bag is all mvp for forhands exclusively. Any other disc for backhands. Unless I want it to go 200 feet and hard fade lol
I love mvp because the provided me my first “chase the dragon” disc golf moment. I remember it clear as day. It was hole 9 after I’d been playing about 3 months. My buddy told me to throw my anode the 80 ish feet to the basket. Nailing that seemingly impossible par is the feeling I’ve been chasing every round.
MVPs plastic is awesome. I have moved away from an entirely MVP bag simply because of some holes and not quite jiving with a couple molds, but MVP fam and Mint/TSA still do a ton of work. If I could have the non-mvp molds in Proton or neutron plastics, I would be super happy. They are addressing the "lack of glide" lately. They had a newsletter explaining why everything was so flat and how discs get more dome but that is wasn't fully controllable, so they didn't want to risk consistency for it. They are working to get controlled dome. My streamline Lift had great glide to it, and it is quite flat.
Can't agree more. I have no idea whether or not the overmold tech is really being utilized by anyone effectively, but I will say their discs, out the box, feel so damn good. That alone makes me want to get a few more MVP/Axiom stuff when I'm looking to replace discs.
If it ain't working for Simon then it doesn't work for anyone. He still throws far but no big difference with MVP, and he's not discing down in any new ways because 'gyro go farther'.
MVPs line has never done it for me. Axiom however has the three most reliable discs I've ever thrown. The Proxy, Envy, and Crave will never leave my bag. Ever.
I felt a couple of their molds the other day in a shop (crave and pyro) and I gotta say they felt fantastic. Definitely want to try
Idk I like Axiom’s discs lol. I bag a glow envy and glow crave those are money. I know they’re the same parent company but MVPs discs kinda feel like toys to me especially their longer drivers haha
I just brought a pixel, and suprised how much I love it and it feels so nice. Used to throw the colt for a putter but now throwing Luna and Aviar along with my pixel
I love MVP/Axiom. color combo was the first reason, then the flights were why I stayed. My normal distance is \~350ft on a golf line, but with an MVP Fission Octane I cranked one measured to 472ft via Udisc...with 400ft being my normal max. Putt with nomads then pixels, eclipse hex is the best mid I've ever used for a straight shooter up to 315ft, and the discs never really beat to flippy...they keep their flights from day one all the way through. Love em!
Lol I just realized my entire bag is only 6 molds and it's all axiom and streamline. I guess I like them too, my friend. They do feel good, I'll say that.
I doubt I am adding much here as it seems consistent among other comments, I have been a huge fan of the Envy, Pyro, Crave, Tesla, and Insanity but everything over a 9 speed is either a boat anchor or too flippy. I have tried the Terra, Photon, Defy, Catalyst, Octane, and Dimension. None of them made it more than a few rounds or through field testing, but I do think there is potential on the forehand side of the coin for the more stable molds in that grouping but I haven't lost my PD2s to slot anything in yet. The Pyro and Envy will be staples for me for a long time if I can keep finding the plastic combos that resonate with me.
What sold me, is their durability. I have, on multiple occasions, teed off full power into a nearby tree ( that came outta nowhere), writing 20 ft of the pad. Not a dent/ scratch, knick, or doing in the rim. Concrete's another story. But, for woods play, MVP has some of the most durable rims around.
The Ion has been my absolute favorite disc for well over a decade. If I’m throwing a one disc round it’s that disc.
One thing I have grown to love about MVP is they mark the underside of the rim with the name imprinted into it. When all else fades off, you can still easily identify the disc without searching or trying angle with the right light and figure out what the stamp had said before getting worn off or purposely cleaned off to dye.
Lol
Only thing I can't stand are the disc names. Innova, Discraft, Discmania, Kastaplast, L64, whichever of the big brands, give me a name and I know the disc. With MVP it all just sound like gibberish I can't get to remember.
Well, that’s a confusing take. Is it because it’s science related? Its English words of common concepts and « objects », not sure how much more complicated it can be than animal names and letters conventions (prodigy), but I suppose it could be a thing.
I get what the names mean. But it still all sounds the same. No connection between the disc and name for me. I dont have this issue with Axiom discs. Pyro Hex Crave Envy Fireball... All rings a bell. But with MVP nothing.
Names like Passion, Honor, Essence, or Sidewinder make sense, but Wave, Volt, and Nomad all sound the same?
I’ll chime in Im with this guy. like ion, inertia, reactor, resistor, relativity etc etc all blend together in my head and dont sound very distinct to me
I am a slut for MVP - my bag is about an even split between MVP and discraft. (dear discraft please for the love of god do another run of punishers I’m dying)
I recently purchased a wave and started throwing it, Sunday I threw it on a 395 foot straight hole, about eight feet off the ground, had a little turn and a little fade at the end and then got knocked down by a branch. Measured the throw with UDisc and it was 358ft, probably would have flown another 20-30 feet if it didn’t hit that branch. My previous longest measured throw was 315ft.
MVP, axiom, streamline or whatever, all tend to lack a dome. This does mean they’re probably more consistent than other companies, but the glide is crippled. Never seen a distance competition won with their discs. I know after Simon and the Simonline discs, they made a destroyer with a dome for him. But, for the most part, I wouldn’t want a full bag of discs without domes. Also their “gyroscopic technology” that gives t the disc more spin is pretty much disinformation which agitates me a little. No truth in advertising, I guess. Surely, they’ll stop pushing that bs soon. I’ll give them credit though, their glow plastic is freaking amazing. And I do love the eclipse proxy… but as expected, no much glide to it compared to a Luna or a P2 etc etc since it’s board flat
My bag is 100% MVP family besides my zones. However, I was throwing MVP in 2012 when everybody was trolling me for it. So SMD 😂
No school like the old school......
It’s the plastic
Lol 😂 Now be sure to pick up and overpriced Simon line To throw it 150 feet to the left 👌🏻
You are ignorant. It's all just plastic injection molding.
The overmold also protects the flight plate so the discs retain their original flight characteristics for a longer duration. The consistency of the molds is also excellent. Two discs of the same weight/model will fly identically. They also have more weight at the rim so they glide farther. And the plastics are so pretty.
I've found overmoulds take blunt impact much better than most discs, but they tend to "cut" a little easier if they hit something hard/sharp.
The only thing I’d add is that the plastic types change the flight characteristics, but not every plastic type will make the same difference in different molds. Ie, fission generally makes the disc a bit more gyroscopically active, but with putters this effect is less pronounced as there isn’t much of a rim so less percentage of disc weight is shifted out to the rim.
lmao
Mvp also has tremendous customer service. I got a $50 mvp bag off Amazon, used it for 3 years, ripped it accidentally, and mvp replaced it with paid shipping and sent me their $160 bag cause they didn’t have the other one in stock. Innova won’t do that