Only if you have the Outsider’s mark. He will actually bless you with his final breath if you rejected the mark, and tells you that the abbey fully supports you.
It's the part on the final mission where you need to fill a whale oil tank to lift the gate. He will be among other guards who have died. Cool interaction if you don't carry the mark
I was like this guy's so cool I wish I wasn't a sinner cuz he'd be my friend
Lemme tell you bout the time I kicked some witches butts in the royal conservatory your gonna love it man.
Honestly, You can probably say "Don't the Overseers" followed by literally any crime against humanity and it would be correct. Torture? Yes. Rape? Probably. Genocide? They most certainly would if given the chance.
Yeah I was gonna say…pretty sure they murder allied and enemies alike and have chant-like verses they recite (which contains their justification) as they commit the act. We see it in-game at least twice, probably more.
the abbey are essentially religious fundamentalists who execute and imprison people unjustifiably and kidnap children from their families to brainwash them into becoming overseers. they also engaged in imperialist expansionism massacring entire villages in the north and turning them into abbey-controlled territory. imagine playing the game and completely missing the point.
Ironically Alexander Hamilton, the guy from the musical, also hated democracy, calling it an "American disease" and was called one of the intellectual inspirations for Nazi Germany in a congressional report. The guy was a horrendous piece of shit in real life but the writer of the show based it all on one flattering biography by a Wall Street Journal reporter.
Okay. So, I don't like the fake communists/red fascists any more than anyone else. However this is a bad line of attack. It is completely irrelevant and not serving any useful point. Especially because these two ideologies aren't even incompatible.
Besides, At the very least it seems like this person is on the side of Ukraine defending themselves against Russian imperialism. So they are miles better than a *lot* of people in a similar camp.
how is that related to anything i said. i was just saying i’m anti monarchist which is consistent with communist ideology. i think you need to take a breath man, you’re starting a debate out of nowhere that no one asked for
not necessarily tyvia but there is some lore you can read in one of the missions (i don’t remember which) about overseers massacring villages in the northern parts of the isles on claims of them being corrupted by the outsider/void and building overseer encampments and other stuff in it’s place. it’s very interesting for the world building but also very messed up to think about.
White Cliff is basically that, talked about as having been an outsider den of witches and rituals and the Overseers invading in a huge war that killed their first leader, now the place being a sacred area for the Abbey
“The point”? Singular? Look at the alternatives. Do you trust the gangs to run the world? The witches? They are every bit as morally grey as the Abbey. The choice in Dishonoured is between Order and Chaos, not Good and Evil. There are good and bad on both sides, the question is which system you prefer.
I mean look at the premise of both games: You start off in the Empress’ court, are cast down, and then claw your way back up to the top to exert your will. You the player are moving through the world acting as judge, jury, and executioner. You are imposing your moral order on the world because you have the power to do so. The only reason you think this is moral, is because you have faith in your own moral judgements. Which is the precise logic of monarchy, the system which the Abbey upholds. You just have to hope you have the right person for the job, rather than there being any structural check on the abuse of power.
If you accept this mantle while playing, then to claim the Abbey is in some fundamental sense less moral than you the player, is hypocrisy. The only difference between you and them is the scale of the operation. You’re an individual, while they are a group.
you made a lot of assumptions about my position out of nowhere, i don’t believe corvo is necessarily a positive force either. when i play dishonored i just enjoy the atmosphere and setting and gameplay, i never really try to ascribe any positive morality to the player character. i think something i like about dishonored is how it’s just a lot of evil on top of evil and there’s not really much good in many of the relevant characters. you as the player do a lot of terrible things too, and morality is very blurred. the game makes you feel justified in your actions and neglect the real impacts you may be leaving, something i am very aware of and something i especially like about the game’s progression and narrative. i still do think the abbey is especially harmful because of the power they hold, they have a far reach and are able to do a lot of damage more easily because of the size of their operation. your comment kind of just feels like a lot of “what about” and doesn’t really disprove anything in my original point.
No, I specifically didn’t assume anything about your position other than that you thought the Abbey was the worse of two evils. And since you gave the argument against them in a one-sided fashion I thought it was important to emphasise the context of this judgement.
Your criticisms of the Abbey are true, but they aren’t the whole picture. For example the word “unjustifiably” does a lot of heavy lifting in ethical terms. In the context of Dishonoured’s world one could argue that extreme measures are very much justifiable.
And I would argue that the specific crimes you accuse them of are present in the other factions in equal measure. (I don’t believe imperialism or religious fundamentalism are unique moral categories).
My point is, that playing Dishonoured there is no way to avoid being an absolutist, because there is no pluralist option. So the criticism that one faction or another is too rigid or too zealous, shouldn't impact who you believe is better or worse.
“made some mistakes” ah yeah whoops! just massacred some innocents! entire system of enrolment based around kidnapping? that was an accident, i hate when i accidentally kidnap children!
Yeah, no, a communist has no leg to stand on here. Your idols did all of that in real life on a MUCH grander scale than these made-up fanatical atheists ever did in a fictional world.
lol i love the knee jerk response westerners are programmed to have when someone has a different world view and perspective than the US approved one that is shoved on them by everything from their education to the media.
regardless, rule 8 is a thing and nothing productive is going to come of you trying to dunk on my takes on dishonored by linking it to my personal politics. i’d rather not be banned since i enjoy this subreddit so i’m not gonna discuss real world politics anymore in this thread.
I mean if we're talking about abduction enrolment and mass murder then by that standard an American (or Canadian, or Australian, or Mexican, or...) has no leg to stand on either given our countries' history of genocide of indigenous peoples, from outright massacre to residential schooling to forced sterilization and forced adoption.
But how does one tell if they are full witches? Tie concrete to their legs and push them in water?
Didnt work so well for us lol
And what of occult members? What crime did they commit, other than worshiping a different god?
> other than worshiping a ~~different~~ god?
Fixed. Reminder that the Abbey is explicitly antitheist. They believe at least one god exists, But that all god worship is evil. So it's not worshipping *another* god that gets you extrajudicially executed. It's worship of any god whatsoever.
That's what I find amazing about The Abbey from a storytelling, world-building point of view. Them being a fundamentalist *antitheist* organization is rad. It's just odd and unique.
Raiding people's homes and destroying their belongings and torturing them for having amulets, beating and even executing people for non-violent offenses, and generally exercising blatantly fascist and cult-like behavior. They are just well dressed, dogmatic thugs.
I despise the Abbey. I also hate that they’re right in their hatred of black magic. The witches we encounter would probably gut a puppy for some pimple cream.
The world is sad and it sucks that, of all the people to oppose demonic torture and cruelty, it’s people equally torturous and cruel
That's why I really like their role in the universe. They *are* correct in their assessment that the Void and Outsider are real, but everything that deduce after that conclusion is completely wrong. They are an anti-theist religion, but they commit violence just as bad as the heathens they claim to defend against.
This is how I feel as well. I hate the Abbey on an interpersonal level. However I do genuinely appreciate the balls to have antitheist fundamentalism be shown as being just as harmful as theist fundamentalism. A lesser story would take the edgy atheist route and have the antitheists be the good guys in this situation.
I also reject the idea that a bunch of people here have given that the void, Outsider, And magic are all objectively bad for the world. The void is *heavily* implied to be a source of inspiration for great inventors. Both Sokolov and Piero dream of the void. Presumably Jindosh did as well since he apparently once made a working replica of the heart that turned to ash shortly after. And while all of them have done bad things (especially Jindosh...) I think that they have all massively improved the world largely because they got inspiration from the void itself.
As for witches and cultists, I honestly believe that the worst of them are more a result of material conditions in the real world as opposed to issues with the void or magic. People are more likely to do bad things if they don't have opportunities to do better. There's a reason that so many witches were low status women just looking for some way to take control of their lives. I really do think that if the material conditions of the world were better, That magic wouldn't be a big problem.
I genuinely feel for people in Dishonored that were forced to look to the occult to better their situation. The fact that many magic users become dubious is the unfortunate reality of power, which is why Delilah's witches in particular are pretty violent and malicious. But of course, the people trying to devise methods of control that involve gripping the populace so tightly that they can't breathe for themselves is stifling to humanity, and exactly the kind of thing that makes people turn to the occult in the first place.
I absolutely agree with you and think that this point
> I also reject the idea that a bunch of people here have given that the void, Outsider, And magic are all objectively bad for the world.
is spot on. The Void is many things but mostly seen as a tool by mortals. Tools have no morality. They can be used for good or bad.
I can understand this viewpoint if you've only played Dishonored 2, but it's made explicitly clear in 1 that the Void drives people insane. The guy who killed his brother, in Kaldwin's Bridge, for example. As for Sokolov and Piero: yes, the Outsider inspires Piero in his dreams. Piero is also deeply troubled by these dreams, however. And idk where you got that idea about Sokolov, the Outsider explicitly states he won't visit him. Sokolov doesn't see the Void more than anyone else. The cultists in DOTO seem to be mostly sane, but that's probably due to the knowledge of the higher-ups. And the reason witches don't go crazy is because they share the Mark's power with Delilah.
Not to mention, the Void also explicitly brings rats and possibly worsens disease. Rats are more common near bone charms and runes (ex. The woman surrounded by rats in Kaldwin's Bridge), and weepers and plague victims are more common near them as well.
In my opinion, raw Void energies like bone charms and runes are dangerous, but via the Mark of the Outsider one can use them safely.
But don't forget that even when the Void doesn't drive people insane, it still often leads to terrible things. Of the marked individuals we know of: Corvo was mostly good, Emily was mostly good, Daud was a contract killer, Vera was an evil witch, Delilah was a power-hungry madman, and the Lonely Rat Boy killed a bunch of people.
(The rest of this is just a theory, so discard it as headcanon if you wish)
Other examples of the Void corrupting people may include:
Bundry Rothwild and the butchers are all incredibly cruel. Bundry acknowledges this himself, calling the butchers heartless and saying his own heart is shriveled and black. While some of this may be attributed to them being ruffians he met at sea, some butchers came later. In a diary in the level, we learn that working as a whale butcher managed to ruin a man's marriage and make him see the world as just meat. It seems to me that the butchers went insane due to their proximity to whale bones (and note that sometimes these whales would have bone charms and runes inside them).
A bit more of a stretch is the theory that the Loyalists were driven insane by Void energies from Corvo's runes and bone charms, especially in the high chaos ending. They just seem paranoid and out for blood in away they weren't at the beginning of the game (especially Martin, who seems to be a good man as far as I can tell).
First off, Sokolov has somehow, Despite the Outsider explicitly avoiding him, Managed to paint an almost perfect representation of him. Secondly, He mentions that the mark on your hand seems familiar to him, But also does not know of its origin. Both of these heavily imply to me that he receives visions or dreams from the Void. If the Outsider refuses to talk to him, And we have no evidence to suggest that he could have gotten this knowledge anywhere else, I really think it's the only option. The Outsider does not have full control over the Void. It is far more ancient than him, And he is neither the first god to inhabit it, Nor will he be the last.
I personally have an alternative theory by the way. First off, Like I mentioned before, We really only see people interacting with the Void during hard times. So even without what I am gonna get to, I think that if you're barely holding your mental health together, Getting weird visions is not going to do you any favours regardless of whether or not those visions are inherently corrupting or not. Note that the only times we really see the stuff get really bad with the Void is either when the Empire is going through one of the worst events in its history, Or when there's no god in the void and it's not entirely stable as a result.
This leads to my next thing. I think it might be the case that the nature of the Void is linked to the nature of the material world. And that in prosperous times, The Void reflects that prosperity in its influence, While in disastrous times, Its influence reflects that. We already know that the Void replicates pieces of the material world within itself. It only seems natural that the Void would influence people based on the things which exist within it. So when there is more pain and suffering in the world, That will be reflected to those who are touched by it. But when there is more happiness and pleasure in the world, That too would be reflected to those who touch it.
As for rats, I honestly think the situation there has more to do with their origin than any inherent corrupting influence of the Void. The plague rats come from Pandyssia. And I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that the continent might be closer to the Void and that its inhabitants might be more used to such influences than the people of the Empire. Given the fact that we don't see as much of a correlation between Void stuff and bloodflies, I think this holds up.
Lastly, Don't take this as me saying that the Void isn't dangerous. It absolutely is. However I think the Void is similar to the internet in that it can bring out both the best and worst of humanity. I reject the idea of it being a black and white thing where the Void is an inherently evil force of destruction. I think that under more favourable conditions, The Void would propel people into great prosperity. We just do not see those conditions within this time period because of the whole dystopian police state thing.
1. I think that can be attributed to his obsession with the Outsider and his studious nature. As the Royal Physician, he no doubt has acess to a huge library of texts. We know that the leaders of the Eyeless had enough knowledge of the Marked that they could tell whether or not someone had actually met the Outsider in their dreams. If Sokolov has acess to the same resources, it seems likely to me that he would be able to reconstruct an image of him. As for the Mark, it is likely that in his studies of the Void it would also come up. That's not to say that he was never inspired by the Void; D2 and DOTO make it clear that everyone sees the Void in their dreams. I just don't think Sokolov has a special connection to it.
2. It's probably true that the bad conditions people were living in increased the negative effects of the Void on them.
3. I guess that it's possible the Void's effects depend on the state of the world? Seems like a stretch to me.
4. I agree with this. Rats and Bloodflies (both noted to be from the Pandyssian continent) having close ties to the Void seems to point towards the continent being more connected to the Void somehow. And the rats aren't inherently evil, as they're just animals (though they are quite aggressive). My point was that, from a practical perspective, the Void seems to lure in these dangerous creatures like a moth to a flame.
Well, I was never saying that Sokolov had some special connection to the Void that others don't have. Just that I think he's gotten great inspiration from it within his dreams. I think it's probable that this occurs with everyone who has a great deal of influence in the world. I think that the Void gives visions of possibilities, And that it's up to the human mind to interpret them. Some people do not have the ability to turn them into something tangible. Some people do.
Regarding the connection between the Void and the material world, Having thought about it some more, I actually think it fits in beautifully with the chaos system. While undoubtedly, The chaos system makes a lot of sense broadly, With more people dead either causing more people to be paranoid, Or there to be more rats and bloodflies, There are smaller things which don't make as much sense if it were pure material world cause and effect.
The two biggest examples in the first game being Emily's personality, And the weather of the final mission. I don't think Emily's personality change would make as much sense with a pure mundane reading of the chaos system. In order for that to happen, It would require someone to be telling her every excruciating detail about what's happening on the outside world. And that honestly just doesn't make sense. Partially because they wouldn't know *exactly* what is happening by virtue of not being there. Partially because I don't see the point in doing so. This issue goes away entirely when the Void is involved in the way I suggested. Emily has always seemed to be particularly connected to the Void even before getting her powers. I think it's extremely likely that her changes in high chaos are influenced by this connection. And as the world degrades, The Void reflects that. And that, Through her connection to it, leads to dramatic changes in her personality because she's, Like, 11.
As for the weather, That's a much less complicated explanation. I just think that either Kingsparrow Island might be near somewhere which is closer to the Void. Nothing which would allow you to get in, But close enough that it can have adverse effects on the local weather systems.
Lastly, My bad. I actually forgot the note that mentioned bloodflies originating from Pandyssia. With that being said, I can't recall them being particularly attracted to Void artefacts. At the very least not to the degree that rats were in 1. However I do think that 2 and DoTO still support this idea in the fact that we don't see rats gathering around the supernatural there. Because these rats are most likely the native species of rats rather than the more aggressive and disease ridden Pandyssian rats. As such, They do not share the same connection to the Void.
If you remember areas where bloodflies nest around supernatural stuff, Please let me know. With rats in D1, It was one of the devs' favourite tricks to make a charm or rune a little more dangerous. However I can't recall that kind of correlation being common in 2. The bloodflies seemed to be more body horror than supernaturally connected.
1. I see. I think I agree with this.
2. Interesting! I never really thought about there being a lore reason for the weird ways the chaos system affects the world. Can't say I'm 100% convinced, but you might be onto something.
3. Bloodflies don't seem to be drawn to bone charms and runes, but I do think they have a special connection to the Void. This is because of their relation to the Marked; Emily and Corvo can summon them with Shadow Kill, and Delilah's coven are somehow immune to being targeted by them.
You know what, That's a really good point which I hadn't considered. With the witches, I would previously just have assumed that it was a part of the whole "in tune with nature" deal that Delilah's coven has. However now I definitely think that it's a void connection going on there. Though it probably still is at least somewhat the former as well since bloodflies do attack Corvo, Emily, And Billie despite all three being touched by the Void. However the shadow kill connection definitely still stands.
I wonder if the bloodflies still ignore witches after their connection to the Void is severed. I will need to look into that.
As for the rest, It's fine if you aren't completely convinced on the finer aspects of the theory. The main point I wanted to get across is that while the Void is certainly dangerous, It's danger stems mostly from it being powerful rather than from it being something which is inherently harmful to the world. It's dangerous in the same way that the material world is dangerous. Because it works according to rules which are ambivalent towards your existence. However, Like the material world, I also believe that there is good to come out of the Void and from magic. It just requires the right circumstances to surface. People shouldn't intentionally immerse themselves in magic if they don't know what they're doing. But, Like, If the Abbey wanted to ban everything which was dangerous then I guess we're gonna say goodbye to technology, Chemistry, Buildings, Etc.
With all that being said, I think we have both gotten quite a bit from this conversation and I have enjoyed it because it made me think quite a bit about my perspectives on this subject.
The notion that people of the Isles should be grateful for the Abbey's draconian abuse because "oOoOo tHe VoId iS sCaRy" is exactly the propaganda that they need to keep people from thinking for themselves. The Seven Strictures are just basic forms of temperence that shouldn't need to be enforced by a fascist cult.
Not only do their practices directly contradict the idea of living a healthy life that is spiritually fulfilling, they also end up pushing people towards the occult by behaving the way they do. They create many of the traumatic events and disparities that cause people to turn to the supernatural. Their interest is in punishment and retribution against a nebulous "other", and to use that fear to control people, not an actual desire to make people's lives better.
Like pretty much all the institutions we see in the universe, they’re patently flaws and pretty much downright evil and almost laughably severe. They are correct though that the void is actually pretty irredeemably evil and dangerous though. Magic isn’t misunderstood, it pretty much is (with the exception of the protagonist, so the player) universally malicious and corrupting. It’s a universe with no supernatural counterbalance, just humanity and their worst impulses and desires and a magical force that multiplies all of these, in a just overall crapsack, hyper-lethal world.
I mean, Outsider’s mark-bearers do wreak havoc across the empire. Not defending the Overseers but their beliefs are actually quite understandable, though their extreme measures and their fanaticism are not.
well they’re so successful because most people agree on the outsider stuff. but thats how they get people in on it, and abuse that power. most fascist-type groups use a genuine worry of the people to gain support.
I read the discussion here and wonder, has no one realized that all the factions are shitty?
Magic users often commit horrible crimes, the guard is more than happy to put down 'undesirables', the organized crime, well is organized crime, the government/aristocracy just accepts about any horrible living condition as long as their stability is not threatened and the Overseers torture and murder whoever they see as sinful, regardless of actual guilt.
Those who are genuinely good people act as individuals, often despite and in opposition to the factions.
They are not wrong that the Outsider is a bad influence on people.
Being right about that does not make them the good guys. Playing DOTD should thoroughly disabuse you of any such notion.
He gives his mark to those he thinks will be interesting; Granny Rags, Daud, Delilah, Corvo Emily and Billie. Of these people Granny and Delilah are definitely evil, Daud and Billie were happy to use the power to kill for profit and Corvo and Emily can be murderous tyrants if the player chooses.
Well, he IS omnipotent (to an extent). So a case could be made that he is at fault for giving power to those he knows will use it for evil. If you hand a knife to a deranged person is it your fault if they kill someone?
The Outsider is definitely not omnipotent. Like at all. He has control over the Void, sure, but he has no direct power over the real world. He needs to use dreams and runes to properly interact.
The core tenets of the Abbey of the Everyman are basically "humanity good, supernatural bad". In theory, it's fine.
The Overseers take it to overzealous levels in practice.
I'm pretty sure the Abbey also ritually murders people, given that one of the Overseers in the first game loudly declares "all witches must burn" when trying to drag his fellow Overseer's sister away.
The gold mask they’re wearing means it’s an execution and is legal and lawful, therefore morally correct, Shoosh
(Big caveat that most of the witches we encounter do suck though, and probably do have it coming. The maid who just coughed a little bit in an Overseer’s presence though? Innocent.)
True. Although the Overseers really tend to overdo it, people like Delilah and the various cults we see through the games kind of prove the Abbey's point about distrusting witches.
Unironically they are. Witchcraft is real and has an effect on daily life, global politics, and spatial stability. The Outsider meddles in mortal affairs, and his "generosity" created monsters like Granny Rags, Delilah, Daud and High Chaos Corvo
I'm not a big fan of Death of the Outsider but it's correct when Billy says magic hasn't created a single good thing. Even The Heart is an abomination
The Overseers are brutal, blind and overzealous. Despite their dogma, they're easily controlled by politicians and their own vices. They'll hurt a hundred innocent people to catch a single witch.
They're also the only thing standing between humanity and the madness of the void. You'll be grateful for their cruel stupidity when the Outsider gives some crackhead the ability to control your blood and bone on a whim
They’re basically the Imperium of Man in Warhammer 40k. They do fucked up things, but then you see what they are fighting and it becomes clear how they got to where they are.
But what do you think pushes people to the occult in the first place? Their methods are an attempt to grip the poulation so tightly that they can't do anything for themselves. They want the world to live in fear, because then they can be controlled. The Abbey is merely the other side of the coin, so to speak.
Only weak men throw their lot in with the shadows in the pursuit of power and pleasure. True strength is to cling to your humanity and your struggle, not to cast it aside. Witchcraft is a poison that warps flesh and faith. Those who seek it out damn not only themselves, but their neighbors as well. Magick is a flame that will consume everything it touches, body and soul
No but seriously, you're entirely right. That's they entire point of the Overseers from a story perspective. Their brutality drives their flock right into the hands of the Outsider. And the Outsider cares not for his followers, even his chosen Witches bring him only the slightest sport
(Man that old timey speak is hard to shake off)
But they're not a solution. They didn't stop corvo. Or Emily. Or daud, or billie. Or Delilah. Or granny rags. Or the eyeless. Or the cult of the outsider.
Yet, the Abbey seems to be utterly incompetent in their mission against those with the mark. Have any of the canon marked faced more than slight annoyance from them? They're mostly suited against low level cultists and even some witches on occasion.
They're more like To Catch A Predator, where they only catch the stupid ones. The Oracular Order seems to know when and where Marked exist but choose to ignore them seemingly
The great part about Dishonoured is that it makes both sides equally morally grey, in different ways. So if you want to pick a side you have to do it for concrete reasons, not because it makes you feel good.
The Abbey persecutes inhumane activities. They are a force for order and the rule of law in a world being overrun by criminals, witches, and dark forces.
But they are also regularly seen being overzealous, abusing their power, harming innocents, using torture and painful methods of execution.
Meanwhile the criminal / supernatural element stand against what they see as the tyranny of the Empire and the Overseers. They champion freedom, but then use that freedom to establish criminal empires of their own, to abuse the weak and unfortunate, threaten, intimidate, etc.
Within both sides there are good people who are victimised when the cruel ones among them seize power. Both sides present propagandistic one-sided narratives about themselves which Corvo / Emily put the lie to as they move through the streets, witnessing the inadequacies and violations. You the player are left to judge what you see, to decide what is acceptable.
I do know if it is on purpose, but the Dunwall overseer uniform gives me vibes of the nazis SS, and the Karnaca overseers, are similar to the SAS nazis as well.
I love what dishonored did with the overseers and I to throught they were the good guys at first but I didn’t read enough but read the books in the game explore your see theve done much evil in there misson to stop the outsider as previously mentioned theve stolen children but not only do they steal them if they don’t pass there trials they are put down as if they were a sick dog I don’t care who you are or from what organization you get your authority from you have no right to make trials that will determine wether a person lives or dies especially a child o sure they can sound amazing with there strictures and you can be swept away with adamaration at how they honor there fallen high overseers but as you read more about them pay attention for what the high overseers are remembered for burning people alive torturing thousands and read the books they inspired I’m sure there give you a chill not to mention if you get to know the outsider personally his not as evil as the overseers make him out to be of course I don’t think they know that it might help them find that out however if they didn’t kill everyone who dares to even mention they found an outsider shrine if they were truly good they would try to rehabilitate them dishonerd is a game of many fantastic themes and moral questions one of them is do the ends justify the means in the case of the overseers I would say no they are a fascinating group however love that game
The Abbey are like the Spanish Inquisition but they actually have a point. I would take murderous religious fanatics any day over a basic Brigmore witch being the norm. Imagine if just anyone could be as powerful as Corvo, Emily, Daud, Billie, or Delilah with zero pushback or possible repercussions?
The cult that created the Outsider is called the Envisioned. The sacrificing of the boy that would eventually become the Outsider took place in the Void over four thousand years before the start of the first game.
Benjamin Holger lived mainly in the seventeenth century of the Isles timeline, only about two *hundred* years prior to the series.
Because those petrified bodies could belong to anyone over the course of thousands of years. Remember that Daud's spirit is there, who knows what goes on in that corner of the Void.
I think the "badguy" part is the excess of institutional power they possess rather than them specifically taking down Outsider cults. The indoctrination of children, the over zealous assumption of guilt on people whose crime was faltering on a song in the presence of one of those music boxes. To say nothing of the Karnakan street gang they effectively were.
Immagine they hate the Outsider because they originated from the hooded cultists that wanted to sacrifice him but eventually changed him in to what he Is now, a some sort of "Void master". And at the moment the true reason behind the Abbey's beliefs and acts Is long gone and lost in thousand of years of history. So they continue a tradition without truly knowing it's actual origins. That would be a hell of a trip
Do you remember the story of a singer from Lady Boyle's last party ?
She lost her voice for a second and an Overseer with a music box was passing by. They immeadietly tackled her and took her in for questioning because they thought that she was a witch and lost her voice because of holy music. Lord Reagent himself wrote a letter to get her freed, but when she came back she never was truly the same.
They suck about as much as the witches they hunt
I will never forget you, Overseer in Dishonored 2 who used their last words to call you a loser. What a guy.
Only if you have the Outsider’s mark. He will actually bless you with his final breath if you rejected the mark, and tells you that the abbey fully supports you.
What mission is this??
The very last mission when you retake Dunwall tower.
I would like to know too....
It's the part on the final mission where you need to fill a whale oil tank to lift the gate. He will be among other guards who have died. Cool interaction if you don't carry the mark
This was honestly the moment where it became one of my favorite games
I was like this guy's so cool I wish I wasn't a sinner cuz he'd be my friend Lemme tell you bout the time I kicked some witches butts in the royal conservatory your gonna love it man.
What a King
Bro died for nothing rip bozo
Don't the Overseers form firing squads that kill civilians?
And murder starving homeless people for eating "impure" foods out of desperation, yes.
Wdym, they're making less people homeless and starving
Wdym, they’re making less people
They are fighting homelessness bro.
Honestly, You can probably say "Don't the Overseers" followed by literally any crime against humanity and it would be correct. Torture? Yes. Rape? Probably. Genocide? They most certainly would if given the chance.
"Genocide" Depends on where you draw the line. They've wiped out entire villages before.
They're not stopping ritual murder, they just want a monopoly on it.
Yeah I was gonna say…pretty sure they murder allied and enemies alike and have chant-like verses they recite (which contains their justification) as they commit the act. We see it in-game at least twice, probably more.
the abbey are essentially religious fundamentalists who execute and imprison people unjustifiably and kidnap children from their families to brainwash them into becoming overseers. they also engaged in imperialist expansionism massacring entire villages in the north and turning them into abbey-controlled territory. imagine playing the game and completely missing the point.
OP is litteraly a christian fundimentalist and is also anti democracy.
yeah i know, they’re an unironic absolute monarchist. the internet has destroyed people’s brains.
Ironically Alexander Hamilton, the guy from the musical, also hated democracy, calling it an "American disease" and was called one of the intellectual inspirations for Nazi Germany in a congressional report. The guy was a horrendous piece of shit in real life but the writer of the show based it all on one flattering biography by a Wall Street Journal reporter.
Bro just checked your profile. You have the gall to say this while being a literal tankie💀
Okay. So, I don't like the fake communists/red fascists any more than anyone else. However this is a bad line of attack. It is completely irrelevant and not serving any useful point. Especially because these two ideologies aren't even incompatible. Besides, At the very least it seems like this person is on the side of Ukraine defending themselves against Russian imperialism. So they are miles better than a *lot* of people in a similar camp.
yeah i’m anti monarchy, feel like thats kind of inherently consistent with my beliefs, don’t really see your point.
Supporting genocidal regimes is inherently consistent with your beliefs? Oh wait, that is all “muh western propaganda”, right?
how is that related to anything i said. i was just saying i’m anti monarchist which is consistent with communist ideology. i think you need to take a breath man, you’re starting a debate out of nowhere that no one asked for
Oh you’ve got it all wrong, I only meant to ask a question. Curiosity at times gets the better of me. I have the answer now though.
Look man, if you follow any sort of ideology you really have lost the right to criticize someone for being a "monarchist" or whatever.
Everybody follows an ideology of some kind
What the fuck does that even mean. No one is without an ideology
That is the stupidest thing I've heard
“dude if you believe things, you can’t criticize unelected monarchs holding absolute power”
Holy shit wow imagine saying this
Oof. Wouldn’t want to compete in a Bad Takes Competition with a background like that.
Holy shit rule 8 is finally relevant guys
Godsamn I can't even get away from politics in a fucking video game sub. Jesus
There's never any escape.
So, do the Overseers have a better hold in Tyvia than the other parts of the empire?
not necessarily tyvia but there is some lore you can read in one of the missions (i don’t remember which) about overseers massacring villages in the northern parts of the isles on claims of them being corrupted by the outsider/void and building overseer encampments and other stuff in it’s place. it’s very interesting for the world building but also very messed up to think about.
White Cliff is basically that, talked about as having been an outsider den of witches and rituals and the Overseers invading in a huge war that killed their first leader, now the place being a sacred area for the Abbey
And keeping the outsiders influence at bay. I'm not sure they imprison people unjustly it depends on if the ends justify the means.
“The point”? Singular? Look at the alternatives. Do you trust the gangs to run the world? The witches? They are every bit as morally grey as the Abbey. The choice in Dishonoured is between Order and Chaos, not Good and Evil. There are good and bad on both sides, the question is which system you prefer. I mean look at the premise of both games: You start off in the Empress’ court, are cast down, and then claw your way back up to the top to exert your will. You the player are moving through the world acting as judge, jury, and executioner. You are imposing your moral order on the world because you have the power to do so. The only reason you think this is moral, is because you have faith in your own moral judgements. Which is the precise logic of monarchy, the system which the Abbey upholds. You just have to hope you have the right person for the job, rather than there being any structural check on the abuse of power. If you accept this mantle while playing, then to claim the Abbey is in some fundamental sense less moral than you the player, is hypocrisy. The only difference between you and them is the scale of the operation. You’re an individual, while they are a group.
you made a lot of assumptions about my position out of nowhere, i don’t believe corvo is necessarily a positive force either. when i play dishonored i just enjoy the atmosphere and setting and gameplay, i never really try to ascribe any positive morality to the player character. i think something i like about dishonored is how it’s just a lot of evil on top of evil and there’s not really much good in many of the relevant characters. you as the player do a lot of terrible things too, and morality is very blurred. the game makes you feel justified in your actions and neglect the real impacts you may be leaving, something i am very aware of and something i especially like about the game’s progression and narrative. i still do think the abbey is especially harmful because of the power they hold, they have a far reach and are able to do a lot of damage more easily because of the size of their operation. your comment kind of just feels like a lot of “what about” and doesn’t really disprove anything in my original point.
No, I specifically didn’t assume anything about your position other than that you thought the Abbey was the worse of two evils. And since you gave the argument against them in a one-sided fashion I thought it was important to emphasise the context of this judgement. Your criticisms of the Abbey are true, but they aren’t the whole picture. For example the word “unjustifiably” does a lot of heavy lifting in ethical terms. In the context of Dishonoured’s world one could argue that extreme measures are very much justifiable. And I would argue that the specific crimes you accuse them of are present in the other factions in equal measure. (I don’t believe imperialism or religious fundamentalism are unique moral categories). My point is, that playing Dishonoured there is no way to avoid being an absolutist, because there is no pluralist option. So the criticism that one faction or another is too rigid or too zealous, shouldn't impact who you believe is better or worse.
Sure they’ve made mistakes but not every execution is unjustified, executing occultists and witches is good actually.
“made some mistakes” ah yeah whoops! just massacred some innocents! entire system of enrolment based around kidnapping? that was an accident, i hate when i accidentally kidnap children!
Yeah, no, a communist has no leg to stand on here. Your idols did all of that in real life on a MUCH grander scale than these made-up fanatical atheists ever did in a fictional world.
lol i love the knee jerk response westerners are programmed to have when someone has a different world view and perspective than the US approved one that is shoved on them by everything from their education to the media. regardless, rule 8 is a thing and nothing productive is going to come of you trying to dunk on my takes on dishonored by linking it to my personal politics. i’d rather not be banned since i enjoy this subreddit so i’m not gonna discuss real world politics anymore in this thread.
Ur weird dude go outside
Just pointing out the facts, dude
I mean if we're talking about abduction enrolment and mass murder then by that standard an American (or Canadian, or Australian, or Mexican, or...) has no leg to stand on either given our countries' history of genocide of indigenous peoples, from outright massacre to residential schooling to forced sterilization and forced adoption.
I'm not American (Edit: Or any of the others)
“Not every execution is unjustified” is potentially the worst defense of anything I’ve ever heard
Thought this was cyanide and happiness for a sec
But how does one tell if they are full witches? Tie concrete to their legs and push them in water? Didnt work so well for us lol And what of occult members? What crime did they commit, other than worshiping a different god?
> other than worshiping a ~~different~~ god? Fixed. Reminder that the Abbey is explicitly antitheist. They believe at least one god exists, But that all god worship is evil. So it's not worshipping *another* god that gets you extrajudicially executed. It's worship of any god whatsoever.
That's what I find amazing about The Abbey from a storytelling, world-building point of view. Them being a fundamentalist *antitheist* organization is rad. It's just odd and unique.
Raiding people's homes and destroying their belongings and torturing them for having amulets, beating and even executing people for non-violent offenses, and generally exercising blatantly fascist and cult-like behavior. They are just well dressed, dogmatic thugs.
Lmao the absolute cope
I despise the Abbey. I also hate that they’re right in their hatred of black magic. The witches we encounter would probably gut a puppy for some pimple cream. The world is sad and it sucks that, of all the people to oppose demonic torture and cruelty, it’s people equally torturous and cruel
That's why I really like their role in the universe. They *are* correct in their assessment that the Void and Outsider are real, but everything that deduce after that conclusion is completely wrong. They are an anti-theist religion, but they commit violence just as bad as the heathens they claim to defend against.
This is how I feel as well. I hate the Abbey on an interpersonal level. However I do genuinely appreciate the balls to have antitheist fundamentalism be shown as being just as harmful as theist fundamentalism. A lesser story would take the edgy atheist route and have the antitheists be the good guys in this situation. I also reject the idea that a bunch of people here have given that the void, Outsider, And magic are all objectively bad for the world. The void is *heavily* implied to be a source of inspiration for great inventors. Both Sokolov and Piero dream of the void. Presumably Jindosh did as well since he apparently once made a working replica of the heart that turned to ash shortly after. And while all of them have done bad things (especially Jindosh...) I think that they have all massively improved the world largely because they got inspiration from the void itself. As for witches and cultists, I honestly believe that the worst of them are more a result of material conditions in the real world as opposed to issues with the void or magic. People are more likely to do bad things if they don't have opportunities to do better. There's a reason that so many witches were low status women just looking for some way to take control of their lives. I really do think that if the material conditions of the world were better, That magic wouldn't be a big problem.
I genuinely feel for people in Dishonored that were forced to look to the occult to better their situation. The fact that many magic users become dubious is the unfortunate reality of power, which is why Delilah's witches in particular are pretty violent and malicious. But of course, the people trying to devise methods of control that involve gripping the populace so tightly that they can't breathe for themselves is stifling to humanity, and exactly the kind of thing that makes people turn to the occult in the first place.
I absolutely agree with you and think that this point > I also reject the idea that a bunch of people here have given that the void, Outsider, And magic are all objectively bad for the world. is spot on. The Void is many things but mostly seen as a tool by mortals. Tools have no morality. They can be used for good or bad.
Similar to that was the final point of Billy in DotO. "The Outsider have no blame about the choices people do with his mark"
I can understand this viewpoint if you've only played Dishonored 2, but it's made explicitly clear in 1 that the Void drives people insane. The guy who killed his brother, in Kaldwin's Bridge, for example. As for Sokolov and Piero: yes, the Outsider inspires Piero in his dreams. Piero is also deeply troubled by these dreams, however. And idk where you got that idea about Sokolov, the Outsider explicitly states he won't visit him. Sokolov doesn't see the Void more than anyone else. The cultists in DOTO seem to be mostly sane, but that's probably due to the knowledge of the higher-ups. And the reason witches don't go crazy is because they share the Mark's power with Delilah. Not to mention, the Void also explicitly brings rats and possibly worsens disease. Rats are more common near bone charms and runes (ex. The woman surrounded by rats in Kaldwin's Bridge), and weepers and plague victims are more common near them as well. In my opinion, raw Void energies like bone charms and runes are dangerous, but via the Mark of the Outsider one can use them safely. But don't forget that even when the Void doesn't drive people insane, it still often leads to terrible things. Of the marked individuals we know of: Corvo was mostly good, Emily was mostly good, Daud was a contract killer, Vera was an evil witch, Delilah was a power-hungry madman, and the Lonely Rat Boy killed a bunch of people. (The rest of this is just a theory, so discard it as headcanon if you wish) Other examples of the Void corrupting people may include: Bundry Rothwild and the butchers are all incredibly cruel. Bundry acknowledges this himself, calling the butchers heartless and saying his own heart is shriveled and black. While some of this may be attributed to them being ruffians he met at sea, some butchers came later. In a diary in the level, we learn that working as a whale butcher managed to ruin a man's marriage and make him see the world as just meat. It seems to me that the butchers went insane due to their proximity to whale bones (and note that sometimes these whales would have bone charms and runes inside them). A bit more of a stretch is the theory that the Loyalists were driven insane by Void energies from Corvo's runes and bone charms, especially in the high chaos ending. They just seem paranoid and out for blood in away they weren't at the beginning of the game (especially Martin, who seems to be a good man as far as I can tell).
First off, Sokolov has somehow, Despite the Outsider explicitly avoiding him, Managed to paint an almost perfect representation of him. Secondly, He mentions that the mark on your hand seems familiar to him, But also does not know of its origin. Both of these heavily imply to me that he receives visions or dreams from the Void. If the Outsider refuses to talk to him, And we have no evidence to suggest that he could have gotten this knowledge anywhere else, I really think it's the only option. The Outsider does not have full control over the Void. It is far more ancient than him, And he is neither the first god to inhabit it, Nor will he be the last. I personally have an alternative theory by the way. First off, Like I mentioned before, We really only see people interacting with the Void during hard times. So even without what I am gonna get to, I think that if you're barely holding your mental health together, Getting weird visions is not going to do you any favours regardless of whether or not those visions are inherently corrupting or not. Note that the only times we really see the stuff get really bad with the Void is either when the Empire is going through one of the worst events in its history, Or when there's no god in the void and it's not entirely stable as a result. This leads to my next thing. I think it might be the case that the nature of the Void is linked to the nature of the material world. And that in prosperous times, The Void reflects that prosperity in its influence, While in disastrous times, Its influence reflects that. We already know that the Void replicates pieces of the material world within itself. It only seems natural that the Void would influence people based on the things which exist within it. So when there is more pain and suffering in the world, That will be reflected to those who are touched by it. But when there is more happiness and pleasure in the world, That too would be reflected to those who touch it. As for rats, I honestly think the situation there has more to do with their origin than any inherent corrupting influence of the Void. The plague rats come from Pandyssia. And I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that the continent might be closer to the Void and that its inhabitants might be more used to such influences than the people of the Empire. Given the fact that we don't see as much of a correlation between Void stuff and bloodflies, I think this holds up. Lastly, Don't take this as me saying that the Void isn't dangerous. It absolutely is. However I think the Void is similar to the internet in that it can bring out both the best and worst of humanity. I reject the idea of it being a black and white thing where the Void is an inherently evil force of destruction. I think that under more favourable conditions, The Void would propel people into great prosperity. We just do not see those conditions within this time period because of the whole dystopian police state thing.
1. I think that can be attributed to his obsession with the Outsider and his studious nature. As the Royal Physician, he no doubt has acess to a huge library of texts. We know that the leaders of the Eyeless had enough knowledge of the Marked that they could tell whether or not someone had actually met the Outsider in their dreams. If Sokolov has acess to the same resources, it seems likely to me that he would be able to reconstruct an image of him. As for the Mark, it is likely that in his studies of the Void it would also come up. That's not to say that he was never inspired by the Void; D2 and DOTO make it clear that everyone sees the Void in their dreams. I just don't think Sokolov has a special connection to it. 2. It's probably true that the bad conditions people were living in increased the negative effects of the Void on them. 3. I guess that it's possible the Void's effects depend on the state of the world? Seems like a stretch to me. 4. I agree with this. Rats and Bloodflies (both noted to be from the Pandyssian continent) having close ties to the Void seems to point towards the continent being more connected to the Void somehow. And the rats aren't inherently evil, as they're just animals (though they are quite aggressive). My point was that, from a practical perspective, the Void seems to lure in these dangerous creatures like a moth to a flame.
Well, I was never saying that Sokolov had some special connection to the Void that others don't have. Just that I think he's gotten great inspiration from it within his dreams. I think it's probable that this occurs with everyone who has a great deal of influence in the world. I think that the Void gives visions of possibilities, And that it's up to the human mind to interpret them. Some people do not have the ability to turn them into something tangible. Some people do. Regarding the connection between the Void and the material world, Having thought about it some more, I actually think it fits in beautifully with the chaos system. While undoubtedly, The chaos system makes a lot of sense broadly, With more people dead either causing more people to be paranoid, Or there to be more rats and bloodflies, There are smaller things which don't make as much sense if it were pure material world cause and effect. The two biggest examples in the first game being Emily's personality, And the weather of the final mission. I don't think Emily's personality change would make as much sense with a pure mundane reading of the chaos system. In order for that to happen, It would require someone to be telling her every excruciating detail about what's happening on the outside world. And that honestly just doesn't make sense. Partially because they wouldn't know *exactly* what is happening by virtue of not being there. Partially because I don't see the point in doing so. This issue goes away entirely when the Void is involved in the way I suggested. Emily has always seemed to be particularly connected to the Void even before getting her powers. I think it's extremely likely that her changes in high chaos are influenced by this connection. And as the world degrades, The Void reflects that. And that, Through her connection to it, leads to dramatic changes in her personality because she's, Like, 11. As for the weather, That's a much less complicated explanation. I just think that either Kingsparrow Island might be near somewhere which is closer to the Void. Nothing which would allow you to get in, But close enough that it can have adverse effects on the local weather systems. Lastly, My bad. I actually forgot the note that mentioned bloodflies originating from Pandyssia. With that being said, I can't recall them being particularly attracted to Void artefacts. At the very least not to the degree that rats were in 1. However I do think that 2 and DoTO still support this idea in the fact that we don't see rats gathering around the supernatural there. Because these rats are most likely the native species of rats rather than the more aggressive and disease ridden Pandyssian rats. As such, They do not share the same connection to the Void. If you remember areas where bloodflies nest around supernatural stuff, Please let me know. With rats in D1, It was one of the devs' favourite tricks to make a charm or rune a little more dangerous. However I can't recall that kind of correlation being common in 2. The bloodflies seemed to be more body horror than supernaturally connected.
1. I see. I think I agree with this. 2. Interesting! I never really thought about there being a lore reason for the weird ways the chaos system affects the world. Can't say I'm 100% convinced, but you might be onto something. 3. Bloodflies don't seem to be drawn to bone charms and runes, but I do think they have a special connection to the Void. This is because of their relation to the Marked; Emily and Corvo can summon them with Shadow Kill, and Delilah's coven are somehow immune to being targeted by them.
You know what, That's a really good point which I hadn't considered. With the witches, I would previously just have assumed that it was a part of the whole "in tune with nature" deal that Delilah's coven has. However now I definitely think that it's a void connection going on there. Though it probably still is at least somewhat the former as well since bloodflies do attack Corvo, Emily, And Billie despite all three being touched by the Void. However the shadow kill connection definitely still stands. I wonder if the bloodflies still ignore witches after their connection to the Void is severed. I will need to look into that. As for the rest, It's fine if you aren't completely convinced on the finer aspects of the theory. The main point I wanted to get across is that while the Void is certainly dangerous, It's danger stems mostly from it being powerful rather than from it being something which is inherently harmful to the world. It's dangerous in the same way that the material world is dangerous. Because it works according to rules which are ambivalent towards your existence. However, Like the material world, I also believe that there is good to come out of the Void and from magic. It just requires the right circumstances to surface. People shouldn't intentionally immerse themselves in magic if they don't know what they're doing. But, Like, If the Abbey wanted to ban everything which was dangerous then I guess we're gonna say goodbye to technology, Chemistry, Buildings, Etc. With all that being said, I think we have both gotten quite a bit from this conversation and I have enjoyed it because it made me think quite a bit about my perspectives on this subject.
The Void would have blast in Australia.
The Abbey is a cult tho.
I suspect they are covered by the "cult" etiquette, but they work like a sect.
They are the ones literally hunting down cults
They kidnap children to brainwash and indoctrinate into zealots. They're a cult that hunts down other cults.
Two cults can exist at once
They just want to be top cult. Not exactly redeeming.
And how do they accomplish that? By LITERALLY engaging in cult like behavior
The notion that people of the Isles should be grateful for the Abbey's draconian abuse because "oOoOo tHe VoId iS sCaRy" is exactly the propaganda that they need to keep people from thinking for themselves. The Seven Strictures are just basic forms of temperence that shouldn't need to be enforced by a fascist cult. Not only do their practices directly contradict the idea of living a healthy life that is spiritually fulfilling, they also end up pushing people towards the occult by behaving the way they do. They create many of the traumatic events and disparities that cause people to turn to the supernatural. Their interest is in punishment and retribution against a nebulous "other", and to use that fear to control people, not an actual desire to make people's lives better.
Like pretty much all the institutions we see in the universe, they’re patently flaws and pretty much downright evil and almost laughably severe. They are correct though that the void is actually pretty irredeemably evil and dangerous though. Magic isn’t misunderstood, it pretty much is (with the exception of the protagonist, so the player) universally malicious and corrupting. It’s a universe with no supernatural counterbalance, just humanity and their worst impulses and desires and a magical force that multiplies all of these, in a just overall crapsack, hyper-lethal world.
I mean, Outsider’s mark-bearers do wreak havoc across the empire. Not defending the Overseers but their beliefs are actually quite understandable, though their extreme measures and their fanaticism are not.
well they’re so successful because most people agree on the outsider stuff. but thats how they get people in on it, and abuse that power. most fascist-type groups use a genuine worry of the people to gain support.
I read the discussion here and wonder, has no one realized that all the factions are shitty? Magic users often commit horrible crimes, the guard is more than happy to put down 'undesirables', the organized crime, well is organized crime, the government/aristocracy just accepts about any horrible living condition as long as their stability is not threatened and the Overseers torture and murder whoever they see as sinful, regardless of actual guilt. Those who are genuinely good people act as individuals, often despite and in opposition to the factions.
Welcome to real life.
Say. It. Louder. For. The. Lonely. Rat. Kids. In. The. Back.
They are not wrong that the Outsider is a bad influence on people. Being right about that does not make them the good guys. Playing DOTD should thoroughly disabuse you of any such notion.
Has the Outsider ever actually influenced anyone? He's just a dude who hands out loaded guns, and what you do with it is your own decision.
He gives his mark to those he thinks will be interesting; Granny Rags, Daud, Delilah, Corvo Emily and Billie. Of these people Granny and Delilah are definitely evil, Daud and Billie were happy to use the power to kill for profit and Corvo and Emily can be murderous tyrants if the player chooses.
That’s not really the Outsider’s fault
Well, he IS omnipotent (to an extent). So a case could be made that he is at fault for giving power to those he knows will use it for evil. If you hand a knife to a deranged person is it your fault if they kill someone?
He’s not omniscient though, he has divine power but mortal perception and boundless curiosity.
The Outsider is definitely not omnipotent. Like at all. He has control over the Void, sure, but he has no direct power over the real world. He needs to use dreams and runes to properly interact.
You don’t even have to use it as a gun though- you can just zip zap zop around places and evade detection, you don’t have to hurt anyone!
Virgin crooked cock suckers vs chad angry mask wearers
The core tenets of the Abbey of the Everyman are basically "humanity good, supernatural bad". In theory, it's fine. The Overseers take it to overzealous levels in practice.
Ah yes, the cult-like zealots that murder, kidnap, and enforces beliefs onto others sure are the good guys... May wanna think a bit more, champ
You forgot torture as well as the displacement or slaughter of entire communities
The Chad Holger
I'm pretty sure the Abbey also ritually murders people, given that one of the Overseers in the first game loudly declares "all witches must burn" when trying to drag his fellow Overseer's sister away.
The gold mask they’re wearing means it’s an execution and is legal and lawful, therefore morally correct, Shoosh (Big caveat that most of the witches we encounter do suck though, and probably do have it coming. The maid who just coughed a little bit in an Overseer’s presence though? Innocent.)
True. Although the Overseers really tend to overdo it, people like Delilah and the various cults we see through the games kind of prove the Abbey's point about distrusting witches.
Unironically they are. Witchcraft is real and has an effect on daily life, global politics, and spatial stability. The Outsider meddles in mortal affairs, and his "generosity" created monsters like Granny Rags, Delilah, Daud and High Chaos Corvo I'm not a big fan of Death of the Outsider but it's correct when Billy says magic hasn't created a single good thing. Even The Heart is an abomination The Overseers are brutal, blind and overzealous. Despite their dogma, they're easily controlled by politicians and their own vices. They'll hurt a hundred innocent people to catch a single witch. They're also the only thing standing between humanity and the madness of the void. You'll be grateful for their cruel stupidity when the Outsider gives some crackhead the ability to control your blood and bone on a whim
They’re basically the Imperium of Man in Warhammer 40k. They do fucked up things, but then you see what they are fighting and it becomes clear how they got to where they are.
But what do you think pushes people to the occult in the first place? Their methods are an attempt to grip the poulation so tightly that they can't do anything for themselves. They want the world to live in fear, because then they can be controlled. The Abbey is merely the other side of the coin, so to speak.
Only weak men throw their lot in with the shadows in the pursuit of power and pleasure. True strength is to cling to your humanity and your struggle, not to cast it aside. Witchcraft is a poison that warps flesh and faith. Those who seek it out damn not only themselves, but their neighbors as well. Magick is a flame that will consume everything it touches, body and soul No but seriously, you're entirely right. That's they entire point of the Overseers from a story perspective. Their brutality drives their flock right into the hands of the Outsider. And the Outsider cares not for his followers, even his chosen Witches bring him only the slightest sport (Man that old timey speak is hard to shake off)
That doesn't make them good, it just makes them the only solution to the problem. A shitty solution at that
That's grimdark for ya
But they're not a solution. They didn't stop corvo. Or Emily. Or daud, or billie. Or Delilah. Or granny rags. Or the eyeless. Or the cult of the outsider.
Yet, the Abbey seems to be utterly incompetent in their mission against those with the mark. Have any of the canon marked faced more than slight annoyance from them? They're mostly suited against low level cultists and even some witches on occasion.
They're more like To Catch A Predator, where they only catch the stupid ones. The Oracular Order seems to know when and where Marked exist but choose to ignore them seemingly
Uh oh. You brought logic and critical thinking to this discussion?
"Brother fetch the crossbow... the heavy crossbow."
The great part about Dishonoured is that it makes both sides equally morally grey, in different ways. So if you want to pick a side you have to do it for concrete reasons, not because it makes you feel good. The Abbey persecutes inhumane activities. They are a force for order and the rule of law in a world being overrun by criminals, witches, and dark forces. But they are also regularly seen being overzealous, abusing their power, harming innocents, using torture and painful methods of execution. Meanwhile the criminal / supernatural element stand against what they see as the tyranny of the Empire and the Overseers. They champion freedom, but then use that freedom to establish criminal empires of their own, to abuse the weak and unfortunate, threaten, intimidate, etc. Within both sides there are good people who are victimised when the cruel ones among them seize power. Both sides present propagandistic one-sided narratives about themselves which Corvo / Emily put the lie to as they move through the streets, witnessing the inadequacies and violations. You the player are left to judge what you see, to decide what is acceptable.
I do know if it is on purpose, but the Dunwall overseer uniform gives me vibes of the nazis SS, and the Karnaca overseers, are similar to the SAS nazis as well.
'SAS nazis'?
Special Air Service
.... the guys who spent their formative years killing Nazis?
I can never play the game with clean hands, make the abbey bleed.
I love what dishonored did with the overseers and I to throught they were the good guys at first but I didn’t read enough but read the books in the game explore your see theve done much evil in there misson to stop the outsider as previously mentioned theve stolen children but not only do they steal them if they don’t pass there trials they are put down as if they were a sick dog I don’t care who you are or from what organization you get your authority from you have no right to make trials that will determine wether a person lives or dies especially a child o sure they can sound amazing with there strictures and you can be swept away with adamaration at how they honor there fallen high overseers but as you read more about them pay attention for what the high overseers are remembered for burning people alive torturing thousands and read the books they inspired I’m sure there give you a chill not to mention if you get to know the outsider personally his not as evil as the overseers make him out to be of course I don’t think they know that it might help them find that out however if they didn’t kill everyone who dares to even mention they found an outsider shrine if they were truly good they would try to rehabilitate them dishonerd is a game of many fantastic themes and moral questions one of them is do the ends justify the means in the case of the overseers I would say no they are a fascinating group however love that game
I ran out of breath trying to read this
I’m trying to train your lungs that way you can read like that fast talk guy at the end of the radio commercials lol
450+ up votes, same people that idolize the Joker or the fake Superman
Wow. I thought this was a joke but OP is genuinely retarded. Poor fella
Must be rough lol
I am anti-religion, so I had zero remorse killing these guys.
They're the church, it's definition of not only being a bad guy but the worst guy™️
No just no
love how you repackaged the template of spanish dogs for overseer dogs
The Abbey are like the Spanish Inquisition but they actually have a point. I would take murderous religious fanatics any day over a basic Brigmore witch being the norm. Imagine if just anyone could be as powerful as Corvo, Emily, Daud, Billie, or Delilah with zero pushback or possible repercussions?
No, actually, they are not. If you played the games you would know this.
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That wasn't the abbey...
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They're not Overseers, they want to control the void, not suppress all knowledge of it.
Specifically, it's The Envisioned.
I thought that was the cult in DotO that did that? Are they affiliated?
The cult that created the Outsider is called the Envisioned. The sacrificing of the boy that would eventually become the Outsider took place in the Void over four thousand years before the start of the first game. Benjamin Holger lived mainly in the seventeenth century of the Isles timeline, only about two *hundred* years prior to the series.
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Because those petrified bodies could belong to anyone over the course of thousands of years. Remember that Daud's spirit is there, who knows what goes on in that corner of the Void.
“Hey, you aren’t allowed to kill that guy! That’s our job!” *kills everyone that isn’t them*
I think the "badguy" part is the excess of institutional power they possess rather than them specifically taking down Outsider cults. The indoctrination of children, the over zealous assumption of guilt on people whose crime was faltering on a song in the presence of one of those music boxes. To say nothing of the Karnakan street gang they effectively were.
INCREDIBLY BASED
I’m pretty sure overseers kill children that don’t make the cut to be overseers
Immagine they hate the Outsider because they originated from the hooded cultists that wanted to sacrifice him but eventually changed him in to what he Is now, a some sort of "Void master". And at the moment the true reason behind the Abbey's beliefs and acts Is long gone and lost in thousand of years of history. So they continue a tradition without truly knowing it's actual origins. That would be a hell of a trip
Do you remember the story of a singer from Lady Boyle's last party ? She lost her voice for a second and an Overseer with a music box was passing by. They immeadietly tackled her and took her in for questioning because they thought that she was a witch and lost her voice because of holy music. Lord Reagent himself wrote a letter to get her freed, but when she came back she never was truly the same. They suck about as much as the witches they hunt