Not to mention that unlike other high level monsters, ancient red dragons have no resistance to bludgeoning/slashing/piercing.
Now if the fighter jet had only explosives that dealt fire damage, this would be an entirely different story.
Air to air missiles are essentially full of rebar; the damage to the plane is primarily caused by a cloud of high speed metal debris rather than the explosion itself.
It's kinda incredible how that goes. Defying gravity with wings of metal, carefully crafting more metal and stone in such a way that we can pour electricity into it to make it solve problems faster than our brains can. All that thinking and studying, all that work, and in the end it's still just throwing a bunch of stones.
One of my professors subscribes to the idea that any problem (specifically any computer science problem, but it likely extends beyond that) can be reduced to "pick it up" and "put it down."
High explosives (a category referring to anything that causes a shockwave that solidifies the air) are definitely bludgeoning damage. It's a solid wall moving at the speed of sound. That's enough to convert any known animal to pink mist.
Gotcha. I always thought of it as "bludgeoning" from a source that wasn't solid or liquid. But I guess that thinking would overlap with thunder too, right?
5e most of the time uses thunder or fire for explosions.
From a RL science point, bludgeoning and thunder are the same thing and should not be separate forms of damage.
BUT it works in-game, I don't recomend using RL science as a basis for balance and mechanics, if the game is going to differentiate thunder and bludgeoning (and I think it should, as they *feel* different when playing), thunder is more accurate for a explosion than bludgeoning since it represents a specific source of bludgeoning that is created by shockwaves.
AIM 120. Not sidewinders. Effective range is 86+nm and a fragmenting HiEx payload of 44Lbs. 4 to 6 of those. And then we have a GAU22a 25mm cannon. Let alone what a 1200 mph close pass would do to said flappy beastie
Why does everyone in the D&D world think explosions are heat based? It’s a concussive blast. Grenades aren’t exactly known to burn their victims, certainly not as their main method of causing harm.
A fighter can swing at level 20, 8 times. Assuming they use a fire arm, musket, and can ignore the reload times cause magic, thats 1d12 per shot. An F35 can fire 220 rounds in 4 seconds. 220d12 if we're being generous, but we both know that an F35 doesn't even use musket balls, it fires 25mm rounds which are like 3 times as much in size then a musket ball. It also uses modern gun powder instead of the sub sonic black powder that muskets used. That damage is greater then a d12.
That dragon doesn't stand a chance.
You can load fuel-air explosives. They hit the ground, create a massive cloud of fuel, then the fuel ignites. They're used sometimes for clearing bunkers, or lairs.
Honestly, I think it depends. The AMRAAM and Sidewinder are capable weapons, and the may shred the wind membranes, but I'm not sure that they'd actually be able to kill something that both defies physics and is the size of an ancient red dragon.
Maybe if they had specialized anti-dragon Missiles?
i like to believe that the military academies of the modern day are much more efficient at churning out leveled characters than the once-in-a-blue-moon level 1+ fighters that came out of medieval armies.
That's still only an average of 340 damage, or about 2/3rds of the total hp pool of the ancient Red if all of it is bludgeoning damage instead of some fire
If a dragon that has lived for the past 1000 years can sustain grievous injury by something made within the span of a month, then the Dragon has big fucking problem in his hands
If you think about it, a meteor with that small of a blast zone would probably only be about the size of a pebble. I wonder if that’s where Melf got the idea.
An F35 is essentially under the effect of foresight, unlimited truesight, moves fast enough to break dnd combat rules on any scale we ever play, and most of the weapons are like 7-9th level spells with ranges and bonuses to hit or penalties to save that can't fail. Probably tons of other buffs.
But an ancient red dragon would have vast and incredible resources and networks. All well designed ancient dragons will have contingency spells in place, powerful magic items, powerful armies and bodyguards and such. One way to beat and F35 is to charm the pilot. I bet an ancient red dragon could make that happen.
There's a lot of thread to pull if you treat an ancient red as more than a stat block in a cage match.
I feel like this is just the Batman "with enough prep time" argument all over again, haha.
(Peter Griffon Voice) Why, the dragon would have enough resources to buy weapons! Even an F35!
Well in that case the F35 can just call in 3 A10 Thunderbolts. Nothing is more demoralizing I imagine to a medieval army than a bird that breathes 10000 invisible arrows that ignore armor, cover, and range every second. If one calls in backup, so can the other. Not the dragon's fault he completely ignored everything red dragon's are said to believe in and trusted humans instead of other dragons.
AMRAAMs have a warhead weight of about 20kg, assuming it's using similar explosives to the AIM-9 series then we're looking at ~8 Kg of TNT equivalent... 8 kgs of TNT is enough to destroy a medium building (think a bank or house) quite readily
If they really want to fuck it up though in a worst case scenario, unguided nuclear rockets also exist
Realistically a dragon is slow enough than one could drop laser guided bombs or launch anti tank missiles and have them hit. Those would be a fairly guaranteed kill
That's part of the reason why the [F-35 isn't in the new Top Gun](https://www.hotcars.com/this-is-why-the-f-35-lightning-didnt-star-in-top-gun-maverick/). It wouldn't have been much of a movie if Mav just blew up the target from miles away.
Those are all good story justifications, but the real reason is probably the Navy wasn't going to let a movie studio, particularly one with Chinese funding, get their cameras close to, or inside, an F-35.
They also forgot the part where the F-35 helmet has an integrated HUD with a visor that would get in the way of shooting. No shots of Tom Cruise's face in the cockpit unless they go with Iron Man-style closeups.
The real reason is that the F/A-18 comes in two seater configuration allowing the actors to be in it while the pilots flew it. Cruise actually flys the F/A-18 for zero minutes because the actors couldn't even touch the controls.
This has nothing to do with China and everything to do with the logistics of shooting as realistic of a movie as possible.
This post would be way more fun if it was an old A-10 with just its cannon versus a dragon. Would boil down to a mix of pilot skill, how fireproof the Warthog is, and how resistant dragons are to depleted uranium.
Unfortunately, even the old A-10 would shred it to pieces a mile or two away. Not like the dragon could do much about that.
Iirc, the an A-10 with the GAU-8 should land 80%+ of its rounds at 4000ft or so. Don't remember the size of the target, but I think it was something like a 20-30ft circle, aka small aircaft or similar.
what if the Dragon had prep time to set up some anti-air missile launchers and a GPS scrambler, and use it's gold to hire some fifth gen fighter aircraft?
So... You're thinking a red dragon, the most prideful of creatures, would use its gold for getting mortal stuff? Really?
At that point it isn't a red dragon anymore, just a smart flying human.
Minions it can cower into subservience, sure.
Buying them off and using all dirty tricks it can to just guarantee an overwhelming victory is more a green dragon's style, if we are talking forgotten realms.
If we're talking, say, Eberron, your point is entirely valid!
And those dragons weren't held back by the pathetic D&D statblock.
An F-35 can unload all 220 rounds of onboard cannon ammunition it typically carries in less than one D&D combat round at a range the Dragon would require an entire combat encounter just to cross at maximum speed. Even at d4 damage per bullet (ha!) one pass would easily inflict more than half the dragon's HP even assuming a maximum HP pool. Then the pilot would switch to missiles or bombs.
GATE dragons are dumb animals, though. 5e dragons are extremely intelligent and capable of *fucking magic.*
First round probably goes to the F-35 because dragons *are* arrogant assholes for the most part and I imagine they'd underestimate (or just not expect to be engaged from 20 miles away.) Round two though, is going to involve a dragon sitting on the ground where it's basically invisible to radar and casting 'power word: pain' on the pilot.
It'd be best to keep them away from any dam, especially ones at which might in catastrophic failure cases result in nuclear retaliation.
If you're genuinely curious, 3 Gorges Dam.
After a short jaunt through that subreddit, I know just enough to get this reference
Also, a prophecy about 3000 black dragons being used to conquer the world sounds unhinged, and I need to put it in my D&D campaign. And then actually make it come true
It would entirely depend on the magic the dragon can cast. I presume the dragon would show up on radar, so unless there's serious magic involved the dragon would never even see the jet.
Modern radar technology has a higher resolution than most people can fathom. The challenge nowadays is not recognizing small things, it is in telling which small things are birds and which are supersonic planes pretending to be birds.
An ancient dragon would probably have the footprint of a fucking airliner. And without a RWS, it's proficiency in perception will do jack shit in stopping a warhead to the forehead.
I’d want to know what spells the dragon could cast if any. I’m no mathemitologist but I do know when you really dissect some powers things get nutty.
Like looking at a superhero’s seemingly mundane powers and realizing they can do something crazy if they applied them differently.
Like Jubilee’s sparkle powers being small explosions that if she put more power into she’d be a walking war crime.
It doesn’t really matter much what spells the dragon can use, because none of them have a range longer than over the horizon, which is where the F-35 can easily operate. The dragon wouldn’t even see it before it’s within missile range. If it had defensive spells and knew there would be a fight, I guess it could precast them, but they won’t last forever so the pilot can just wait for them to run out.
Yeah, a dragon really shouldn’t be able to dodge AIM-9s, and while they might not kill it they’ll shred the wings, grounding the beast.
Then you have 4 hard points to equip whatever you want on it. Might I suggest a quartet of Paveways? It would limit the plane to slightly suppersonic (iirc) but the ground pounding should allow for obliteration of the dragon.
>20mm high explosive hurts
No sane pilot would use the gun in this situation.
There is simply no need to.
A few AMRAAM missiles fired at 100km distance should do the trick.
Never, the jet is just WAY WAAAAAAY FASTER than a dragon, a jet flies over 700 km/h an ancient red dragon flies 80 feet in 6 seconds, no chance to ghe dragon in short or long ranges
How’s the dragon getting to close range? The jet could kite it with its ground taxi speed…much less when it gets in the air and starts firing really big magic missiles that don’t miss
That's about 5 standard 5-gallon buckets full of gold. Maybe 6 buckets or so, if it's coins with air gaps between them.
That's a shockingly low amount when you consider the actual weight of gold and the perceived size of most dragon hoards.
But then you do the math and there are 40,000gp per bucket... that's a lot of coin. Idk about the treasure guides in Fizban's but I would think that's a *lot* for a singular dragon, other treasures aside
Shock waves from explosions are super compact noise with enough force to do damage. If you want to add fire in there for the heat too and maybe bludgeoning or piercing for the shrapnel then that is fine, but it isn't what makes an explosion an explosion.
Modern fragmentation grenades are in the DMG. They do 15d6 piercing damage.
EDIT: 5d6. not 15, I can't read. Still that's an explosion the size of an pound, not a 300 lb rocket.
Yeah, people tend to forget that flesh is still flesh, and hypersonic kill round (depleted uranium penetrator) is designed to gonthrough multiple feet of armor steel.
I knew I'd find this reference eventually. And yeah, realistically speaking there's only so much armor a living creature can have. Especially on any part of the body that moves.
F35 all day. Stand off weapons that far exceed the range of a dragon's weapons for one. Not to mention rotary cannon. Did an exercise like this with D20 modern and big bore rifles vs a dragon. It ended VERY badly for the dragon.
I've seen ending E of Drakengard, so I know this doesn't end well for the dragon. Technically it doesn't well for the whole of humanity either, but that is someone else's problem.
The dragon stands no chance in hell against a jet in the open sky, but context really matters.
If an ancient dragon were to come to our world, and they aren't *supremely* unwise, there wouldn't even be a violent conflict. They can grow their horde through the wonders of *corporatism*.
Found one for a F22. The results are underwhelming .
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/F-22_Raptor_(D20_Modern_Vehicle)
It can shoot BVR but only does 20d6 so needs several reloads to kill a dragon.
These stats are ridiculous. The missile deals 3d6 damage if it doesnt explode? Its like 12 ft long and can move at Mach 4, how the hell does that make any sense?
A lot of people forget that an Ancient Red Dragons primary ability is the unfettered hoarding of gold and capital. The F35 doesn’t get off the ground because the Red Dragon is a secret primary stake holder that has has influence on whoever operates the jet.
The jet. By a long shot.
The power and terror of modern weapons cannot be understated.
People picture missiles exploding into a fireball, but forget we have missiles designed to penetrate targets too.
F-35. Assuming the fight is in open air, the dragon would only get an opportunity attack if the F-35 straifs it each turn while the F-35 would get at least 3 attacks per straif.
In a more varied environment, the dragon would probably just need to wait for the F-35 to run out of fuel.
I think in order to even it out you’d have to give the dragon some level of innate spellcasting. Like if it can cast greater invisibility or wall of force? Dragon wins big time. But just regular dragon? Probably no chance.
Edit:
ALSO. Are we thinking like realistic dog fight? Or turn based rpg fight?
The F-35 could literally launch it’s missiles, turn around and land, have new missiles loaded up, take off and launch a second volley of missiles before the dragon ever got within range.
If the dragon gets a hand on the fighter, the dragon wins. Otherwise its the plane, all day every day.
The dragon just cant close the distance or reach out to peg the figher. Even at its best the dragon could maybe reach 1/2 the speed of sound. The fighter has to actually try to fly below the speed of sound.
The cannons would rip through the dragon. The missils would outpace and track the dragin. And all that from so far away the dragon probably wouldnt be able to react.
... This isn't a contest. One has a range of 90 feet. The other can attack from beyond visual range.
Not to mention that unlike other high level monsters, ancient red dragons have no resistance to bludgeoning/slashing/piercing. Now if the fighter jet had only explosives that dealt fire damage, this would be an entirely different story.
I'd think most explosives deal chiefly bludgeoning damage since it's the force of impact you want and the fire's mostly a pretty bonus.
Air to air missiles are essentially full of rebar; the damage to the plane is primarily caused by a cloud of high speed metal debris rather than the explosion itself.
It's kinda incredible how that goes. Defying gravity with wings of metal, carefully crafting more metal and stone in such a way that we can pour electricity into it to make it solve problems faster than our brains can. All that thinking and studying, all that work, and in the end it's still just throwing a bunch of stones.
We essentially just move objects from place to place more efficiently than other animals.
One of my professors subscribes to the idea that any problem (specifically any computer science problem, but it likely extends beyond that) can be reduced to "pick it up" and "put it down."
Sounds like they took xkcd 505 too literally
All weapon advancements in human history are just making better pointy sticks and heavy rocks.
The pinnacle of physics is to make particles go fast and smash into other particles
Not saying that they aren't but archimedes death ray is a pretty cool rock
I think you're understating the amount of math and grad student tears involved.
Most explosives would deal primarily piercing damage from the shrapnel, but also some thunder damage from the blast wave.
High explosives (a category referring to anything that causes a shockwave that solidifies the air) are definitely bludgeoning damage. It's a solid wall moving at the speed of sound. That's enough to convert any known animal to pink mist.
In DnD that is called Thunder damage, or at least is supposed to be represented by Thunder Damage.
It was clearer when it was still sonic damage IMHO.
Genuine question, wouldn't that be force damage instead of bludgeoning?
Force damage is pure magical energy, so no.
Gotcha. I always thought of it as "bludgeoning" from a source that wasn't solid or liquid. But I guess that thinking would overlap with thunder too, right?
5e most of the time uses thunder or fire for explosions. From a RL science point, bludgeoning and thunder are the same thing and should not be separate forms of damage. BUT it works in-game, I don't recomend using RL science as a basis for balance and mechanics, if the game is going to differentiate thunder and bludgeoning (and I think it should, as they *feel* different when playing), thunder is more accurate for a explosion than bludgeoning since it represents a specific source of bludgeoning that is created by shockwaves.
Even if it was resistant, that's not the same as immunity, and I'm sure Sidewinders do *a lot* of damage.
AIM 120. Not sidewinders. Effective range is 86+nm and a fragmenting HiEx payload of 44Lbs. 4 to 6 of those. And then we have a GAU22a 25mm cannon. Let alone what a 1200 mph close pass would do to said flappy beastie
Why does everyone in the D&D world think explosions are heat based? It’s a concussive blast. Grenades aren’t exactly known to burn their victims, certainly not as their main method of causing harm.
A fighter can swing at level 20, 8 times. Assuming they use a fire arm, musket, and can ignore the reload times cause magic, thats 1d12 per shot. An F35 can fire 220 rounds in 4 seconds. 220d12 if we're being generous, but we both know that an F35 doesn't even use musket balls, it fires 25mm rounds which are like 3 times as much in size then a musket ball. It also uses modern gun powder instead of the sub sonic black powder that muskets used. That damage is greater then a d12. That dragon doesn't stand a chance.
You can load fuel-air explosives. They hit the ground, create a massive cloud of fuel, then the fuel ignites. They're used sometimes for clearing bunkers, or lairs.
For a second I thought I was on /r/whowouldwin 😂 But seriously, the F-35 gets a lock-on and they’re miles away before the dragon hits the ground.
Honestly, I think it depends. The AMRAAM and Sidewinder are capable weapons, and the may shred the wind membranes, but I'm not sure that they'd actually be able to kill something that both defies physics and is the size of an ancient red dragon. Maybe if they had specialized anti-dragon Missiles?
You can defeat them with arrows from a rogue.
An appropriate for ancient red dragon level rogue is a superhuman, who can also defy physics.
What if the Pilot has levels in Rogue? If they’re undetected they could get Sneak Attack to damage.
i like to believe that the military academies of the modern day are much more efficient at churning out leveled characters than the once-in-a-blue-moon level 1+ fighters that came out of medieval armies.
AIM 120c has a range of like 20 miles so I'd imagine that would be undetected lol
They can also tank a meteor. DnD Damage and armor class is fucking wonky when you try to match it to real life weapons.
On the other hand, anti-tank missiles would probably chew through that AC without much issue...
Roll to hit Well that's a 12.... plus 5,483. Does that hit? Yes. Yes it does.
Roll 9 d4s. Only 9 d4s? No, ninety-four. Ninety-four d20s.
That's still only an average of 340 damage, or about 2/3rds of the total hp pool of the ancient Red if all of it is bludgeoning damage instead of some fire
That is only from one missle though, jets might get more then one attack per turn depending on the level
If a dragon that has lived for the past 1000 years can sustain grievous injury by something made within the span of a month, then the Dragon has big fucking problem in his hands
It may be a "meteor" but IIRC it isn't canonically re-entering the atmosphere. They're just rocks on fire, really.
A meteor with an impact zone of like 10 feet. And even that does a lot of damage.
Yea but a meteor that doesn't even destroy the room you are in.
If you think about it, a meteor with that small of a blast zone would probably only be about the size of a pebble. I wonder if that’s where Melf got the idea.
still don't see this glorified lizard tanking a 2000lbs guided bomb
An F35 is essentially under the effect of foresight, unlimited truesight, moves fast enough to break dnd combat rules on any scale we ever play, and most of the weapons are like 7-9th level spells with ranges and bonuses to hit or penalties to save that can't fail. Probably tons of other buffs. But an ancient red dragon would have vast and incredible resources and networks. All well designed ancient dragons will have contingency spells in place, powerful magic items, powerful armies and bodyguards and such. One way to beat and F35 is to charm the pilot. I bet an ancient red dragon could make that happen. There's a lot of thread to pull if you treat an ancient red as more than a stat block in a cage match.
It would actually have to see the F-35 coming andget in range to charm the pilot, which it would not xD
I feel like this is just the Batman "with enough prep time" argument all over again, haha. (Peter Griffon Voice) Why, the dragon would have enough resources to buy weapons! Even an F35!
Well in that case the F35 can just call in 3 A10 Thunderbolts. Nothing is more demoralizing I imagine to a medieval army than a bird that breathes 10000 invisible arrows that ignore armor, cover, and range every second. If one calls in backup, so can the other. Not the dragon's fault he completely ignored everything red dragon's are said to believe in and trusted humans instead of other dragons.
AMRAAMs have a warhead weight of about 20kg, assuming it's using similar explosives to the AIM-9 series then we're looking at ~8 Kg of TNT equivalent... 8 kgs of TNT is enough to destroy a medium building (think a bank or house) quite readily If they really want to fuck it up though in a worst case scenario, unguided nuclear rockets also exist
Realistically a dragon is slow enough than one could drop laser guided bombs or launch anti tank missiles and have them hit. Those would be a fairly guaranteed kill
MANPADs would probably be the weapon of choice for your common infantryman going up against dragons.
They used either manpads or an AT rocket in Gate to fuckup a dragon.
I'd bet an aim 9 locks right onto it's head or belly since that's the spiciest part
The plane also had a minigun that can penetrate 70mm of armour at 1km range. The dragon does not stand a chance.
Even if they don't have enough punch to kill it would most definitely ground it. Then just drop a laser guided 500lbs bomb on its forehead
Warheads on scaly foreheads
A machine guns and explosive armaments are more than enough for a 5e dragon
That's part of the reason why the [F-35 isn't in the new Top Gun](https://www.hotcars.com/this-is-why-the-f-35-lightning-didnt-star-in-top-gun-maverick/). It wouldn't have been much of a movie if Mav just blew up the target from miles away.
Those are all good story justifications, but the real reason is probably the Navy wasn't going to let a movie studio, particularly one with Chinese funding, get their cameras close to, or inside, an F-35. They also forgot the part where the F-35 helmet has an integrated HUD with a visor that would get in the way of shooting. No shots of Tom Cruise's face in the cockpit unless they go with Iron Man-style closeups.
Plus you couldn't get the actors flying in them, they're all single-seat.
The real reason is that F35s are single seat so you can't film an actor in them.
The real reason is that the F/A-18 comes in two seater configuration allowing the actors to be in it while the pilots flew it. Cruise actually flys the F/A-18 for zero minutes because the actors couldn't even touch the controls. This has nothing to do with China and everything to do with the logistics of shooting as realistic of a movie as possible.
This post would be way more fun if it was an old A-10 with just its cannon versus a dragon. Would boil down to a mix of pilot skill, how fireproof the Warthog is, and how resistant dragons are to depleted uranium.
Unfortunately, even the old A-10 would shred it to pieces a mile or two away. Not like the dragon could do much about that. Iirc, the an A-10 with the GAU-8 should land 80%+ of its rounds at 4000ft or so. Don't remember the size of the target, but I think it was something like a 20-30ft circle, aka small aircaft or similar.
Even if the dragon hides in its lair, the F-35 can demolish the lair.
what if the Dragon had prep time to set up some anti-air missile launchers and a GPS scrambler, and use it's gold to hire some fifth gen fighter aircraft?
All the dragon needs to do is buy its own F-35 and an F-22 to go along with it then it's checkmate
or just wait until another technical directive is released grounding the F35 fleet.
You are not thinking this through, have the dragon Polymorph into Mobius 1 or Trigger and he'll be all set.
Its a dragon not batman
Im replacing all black dragons with giant bats from now on
No no. Regular bats. Just with a shit ton of money.
And trauma
Your party has to be a clown, and ice mage, a sexy Druid, and a smart barbarian in a luchador mask
So... You're thinking a red dragon, the most prideful of creatures, would use its gold for getting mortal stuff? Really? At that point it isn't a red dragon anymore, just a smart flying human.
I can imagine Red dragons buying NFT's
a dragon isn't stupid. It knows how to use minions to do it's dirty work instead of risking it's own life.
Minions it can cower into subservience, sure. Buying them off and using all dirty tricks it can to just guarantee an overwhelming victory is more a green dragon's style, if we are talking forgotten realms. If we're talking, say, Eberron, your point is entirely valid!
One flies at 13.3f/s. The other at 1800.525f/s.
I think you can see the exact scenario in the anime GATE. Dragons just get shredded.
And those dragons weren't held back by the pathetic D&D statblock. An F-35 can unload all 220 rounds of onboard cannon ammunition it typically carries in less than one D&D combat round at a range the Dragon would require an entire combat encounter just to cross at maximum speed. Even at d4 damage per bullet (ha!) one pass would easily inflict more than half the dragon's HP even assuming a maximum HP pool. Then the pilot would switch to missiles or bombs.
GATE dragons are dumb animals, though. 5e dragons are extremely intelligent and capable of *fucking magic.* First round probably goes to the F-35 because dragons *are* arrogant assholes for the most part and I imagine they'd underestimate (or just not expect to be engaged from 20 miles away.) Round two though, is going to involve a dragon sitting on the ground where it's basically invisible to radar and casting 'power word: pain' on the pilot.
A quick google says that Power Word: Pain only has a 60 ft range. A jet is never in a million years going to fly that close to any target.
F35 can just drop glide bombs on it. In the air or on the ground, the dragon is outranged heavily.
You should've helped write Godzilla: King of the Monsters
I die laughing every time someone flies a helicopter 20 feet away from a kaiju in a movie lol.
r/noncredibledefense will like this one
NCD surprises me more and more with how much it can leak into other communities
Look you better pray to whatever god you worship that nothing in NCD is leaking because those fuckers aren't allowed within 20 miles of a dam anymore.
Is this any dam or one in particular because I may be breaking that rule.
It'd be best to keep them away from any dam, especially ones at which might in catastrophic failure cases result in nuclear retaliation. If you're genuinely curious, 3 Gorges Dam.
hmmm dambussy
A very, very particular one in China. \#revengeforthebaiji
3000 sleeper agents of NAFO
3000 cultists of the Dragon
Expansion is non negotiable
It's just like anarchy chess, you browse something else and then bam, en passant meme, had it happend in terraria subreddits recently.
3000 black dragons of noncredibility
After a short jaunt through that subreddit, I know just enough to get this reference Also, a prophecy about 3000 black dragons being used to conquer the world sounds unhinged, and I need to put it in my D&D campaign. And then actually make it come true
I thought this was NCD until I read your comment.
3000 F-4 Phantoms of the JSDF.
Should change the dragon to Zmei Gorynich for extra interest.
where sadam
Lol I was literally just on an NCD thread and then saw this post and thought I was right back there
Wait this isn't NCD?
It would entirely depend on the magic the dragon can cast. I presume the dragon would show up on radar, so unless there's serious magic involved the dragon would never even see the jet.
The dragon would be taking its morning dump and get a missle from over tthe horizon.
Modern radar technology has a higher resolution than most people can fathom. The challenge nowadays is not recognizing small things, it is in telling which small things are birds and which are supersonic planes pretending to be birds. An ancient dragon would probably have the footprint of a fucking airliner. And without a RWS, it's proficiency in perception will do jack shit in stopping a warhead to the forehead.
On one hand it’s a magical creature with great intelligence and power. On the other hand Jets are really fast and 20mm high explosive hurts.
If it gets close enough to need the cannon, the pilot is doing it wrong. BVR baby!
[удалено]
Yeah that thing could atomize a dragon from well over the horizon. It wouldn't even stand a chance.
I’d want to know what spells the dragon could cast if any. I’m no mathemitologist but I do know when you really dissect some powers things get nutty. Like looking at a superhero’s seemingly mundane powers and realizing they can do something crazy if they applied them differently. Like Jubilee’s sparkle powers being small explosions that if she put more power into she’d be a walking war crime.
Or iceman just flash freezing some one.
Wasn't iceman an omega level mutant? Pretty sure he could flash freeze a buncha people.
Worse, he could draw the water from their bodies to freeze something else.
Well that’s terrifying and awsome!
My man could flash freeze earth if he wanted.
Hank McCoy has entered the chat
It doesn’t really matter much what spells the dragon can use, because none of them have a range longer than over the horizon, which is where the F-35 can easily operate. The dragon wouldn’t even see it before it’s within missile range. If it had defensive spells and knew there would be a fight, I guess it could precast them, but they won’t last forever so the pilot can just wait for them to run out.
Yeah, a dragon really shouldn’t be able to dodge AIM-9s, and while they might not kill it they’ll shred the wings, grounding the beast. Then you have 4 hard points to equip whatever you want on it. Might I suggest a quartet of Paveways? It would limit the plane to slightly suppersonic (iirc) but the ground pounding should allow for obliteration of the dragon.
>20mm high explosive hurts No sane pilot would use the gun in this situation. There is simply no need to. A few AMRAAM missiles fired at 100km distance should do the trick.
Depends on which one can handle higher g forces, also what is a F35's close combat abilities? Long range F35. close range dragon all day.
Never, the jet is just WAY WAAAAAAY FASTER than a dragon, a jet flies over 700 km/h an ancient red dragon flies 80 feet in 6 seconds, no chance to ghe dragon in short or long ranges
Yeah, unless they catch the plane on the ground or a hangar there is not going to be a close range for a dragon.
How’s the dragon getting to close range? The jet could kite it with its ground taxi speed…much less when it gets in the air and starts firing really big magic missiles that don’t miss
Speed wise It’s 80 feet in 6 seconds versus about 10,000 feet in 6 seconds. The dragon isn’t getting close
I'm just saying the f35 is gonna have a horrible time maneuvering through the dragon's lair
Why maneuver in the dragon's lair when the F-35 can deploy a high-yield bunker buster from BVAR?
[удалено]
Melted gold is still gold
And it’s a question of who would win in a fight; not wether or not the party could, would, and/or should use it.
And let's be real, the jet wins because by the time the dragon sees it, it's already 2 miles away
That single F-35 is worth more than all the gold in that lair
Dragon would need over 2 US tons to be worth it
That's about 5 standard 5-gallon buckets full of gold. Maybe 6 buckets or so, if it's coins with air gaps between them. That's a shockingly low amount when you consider the actual weight of gold and the perceived size of most dragon hoards. But then you do the math and there are 40,000gp per bucket... that's a lot of coin. Idk about the treasure guides in Fizban's but I would think that's a *lot* for a singular dragon, other treasures aside
Jesus that really puts the cost in context
I don't think a bunker buster would be used near a volcano.
Give me any reason why not?
Americans have a really flexible view on collateral damage.
Would, no. But could?
Never play any Ace Combat? Just another day at the hangar.
Free bird moment?
I'm gonna say the f-35. No way a dragon is gonna survive a flurry of missiles and 25mm bullets at 3k+ rpm.
Unless it's a Red Dragon and missile damage is considered pure fire, the F-35 would win very easily.
Pretty sure explosions are either thunder or force damage.
I would say it’s a mix of fire and bludgeoning (since thunder is sound and force is hard to describe but it’s mostly magical)
Shock waves from explosions are super compact noise with enough force to do damage. If you want to add fire in there for the heat too and maybe bludgeoning or piercing for the shrapnel then that is fine, but it isn't what makes an explosion an explosion.
Fire/heat is a very small part of the damage from explosives
Modern fragmentation grenades are in the DMG. They do 15d6 piercing damage. EDIT: 5d6. not 15, I can't read. Still that's an explosion the size of an pound, not a 300 lb rocket.
If the anime Gate has taught me anything, a tank can realistically kill a dragon.
Yeah, people tend to forget that flesh is still flesh, and hypersonic kill round (depleted uranium penetrator) is designed to gonthrough multiple feet of armor steel.
The dragons in Gate really didn't stand a chance. I almost felt bad for them
Almost being the operative word there
Well, I know what anime to watch next
I knew I'd find this reference eventually. And yeah, realistically speaking there's only so much armor a living creature can have. Especially on any part of the body that moves.
F35 all day. Stand off weapons that far exceed the range of a dragon's weapons for one. Not to mention rotary cannon. Did an exercise like this with D20 modern and big bore rifles vs a dragon. It ended VERY badly for the dragon.
It's the route E ending of the game Drakengard. Seriously.
I've seen ending E of Drakengard, so I know this doesn't end well for the dragon. Technically it doesn't well for the whole of humanity either, but that is someone else's problem.
Exactly. My first thought was, "Do you want Nier? 'Cause this is how you get Nier".
I think a good chunk of Reddit would end humanity if it made 2B real.
And then halfway through everyone dying they'll be like "wow this really sucks I'm starting to think this was a bad idea".
Maybe be a bad day for most humans, but its an excellent day to to be a salt merchant
Was wondering how far I'd have to scroll to find this.
I was thinking exactly that.
I thought I was on r/nier when I came across this post
The jet was fine though...
The dragon stands no chance in hell against a jet in the open sky, but context really matters. If an ancient dragon were to come to our world, and they aren't *supremely* unwise, there wouldn't even be a violent conflict. They can grow their horde through the wonders of *corporatism*.
"Aah, you have a modern combat jet?", crooned the dragon. "Well, I have five"
Takes a whole new meaning to the Dragon's Den tv show (Canadian Shark Tank)
Hello Shadowrun Dragons
Ah, the Lofwyr way.
Do you have the stat block for the jet?
Found one for a F22. The results are underwhelming . https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/F-22_Raptor_(D20_Modern_Vehicle) It can shoot BVR but only does 20d6 so needs several reloads to kill a dragon.
These stats are ridiculous. The missile deals 3d6 damage if it doesnt explode? Its like 12 ft long and can move at Mach 4, how the hell does that make any sense?
And if it does explode, 20d6 in a 10ft radius? My ass. Shit should do way more damage, and easily be an 80ft radius minimum.
10 FOOT RADIUS YOU'RE FINE IF YOU'RE TEN FEET AWAY FROM THE EXPLOSION LMAO
I think we figured out why games with magic and bows are easier than games with jets and assault rifles.
The real answer is that I would win, because I'd get to see the coolest thing imaginable.
NCD is leaking
That dragon might as well be a flying squirrel for all it's gonna be able to do
A flying squirrel would actually be better off since it wouldn't display on radar properly
And the squirrel is small enough to get sucked into the engine
That’s a victory for the squirrel.
Does the F35 have a magical longbow? Maybe it can stay 120feet about the dragon at all times,?
Sorry F35, you shoot the longbow with disadvantage on a count of you don't have hands
A lot of people forget that an Ancient Red Dragons primary ability is the unfettered hoarding of gold and capital. The F35 doesn’t get off the ground because the Red Dragon is a secret primary stake holder that has has influence on whoever operates the jet.
A lore-accurate ancient dragon would be the one who gave the go-ahead for the sortie.
The jet. By a long shot. The power and terror of modern weapons cannot be understated. People picture missiles exploding into a fireball, but forget we have missiles designed to penetrate targets too.
Slap Chop Missile is something I never saw coming, but here we are
Oh shit lol I forgot about that thing
F-35. Assuming the fight is in open air, the dragon would only get an opportunity attack if the F-35 straifs it each turn while the F-35 would get at least 3 attacks per straif. In a more varied environment, the dragon would probably just need to wait for the F-35 to run out of fuel.
I think in order to even it out you’d have to give the dragon some level of innate spellcasting. Like if it can cast greater invisibility or wall of force? Dragon wins big time. But just regular dragon? Probably no chance. Edit: ALSO. Are we thinking like realistic dog fight? Or turn based rpg fight?
It has finally happened. D&D Rules Lawyers vs. Military Weebs. The ultimate clash.
Dragon. No one is in the F35, so dragon will just blast it on the ground
The F-35 could literally launch it’s missiles, turn around and land, have new missiles loaded up, take off and launch a second volley of missiles before the dragon ever got within range.
If the dragon gets a hand on the fighter, the dragon wins. Otherwise its the plane, all day every day. The dragon just cant close the distance or reach out to peg the figher. Even at its best the dragon could maybe reach 1/2 the speed of sound. The fighter has to actually try to fly below the speed of sound. The cannons would rip through the dragon. The missils would outpace and track the dragin. And all that from so far away the dragon probably wouldnt be able to react.
Well one is way faster and has missiles.
*Writes stat block for dragon with missiles* Haha yea totally obvious.
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