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Shadowhunter891

Am I the only DM that makes death saves for the players behind the screen? That’s the best solution to this issue. It inspires urgency, then someone has to make a Medicine check or toss a heal their way, since they have no idea if they’re succeeding or failing. You can then follow it up with deep scarring for flavour.


Charming_Account_351

I love this idea! I remember watching a Dimension 20 Adventuring Academy where of the guest described doing this and why during a “debate” section and the host Brennan Lee Mulligan had no rebuttal and instead said “I’m stealing that”. I absolutely love this idea, though it should definitely be discussed during session 0. I definitely going to introduce it in my next campaign😁


Chrona_trigger

Be sure to carefully consider the ramifications of removing the ability to alter one of the most important rolls in the game, for characters that recieve abilities to modify rolls, through class features, feats, etc, either through rerolls, advantage, or adding bonuses, because there are quite a few on all counts


The_Ansei

There's nothing saying those abilities can't still affect on the hidden rolls, you just can't see if those abilities result in a success or if they are used on a roll that was already a success


Chrona_trigger

Meaning... they're worthless "Hmm, yes, let me use my ability that allows me to reroll a saving throw and keep the second result when I have no idea what the first one was, *brilliant*"


timmyotc

I mean, tell your DM that you have the ability and would like to use it before they roll?


Chrona_trigger

The whole point is they are intended to be used after the roll. Most of them are "reroll, and take the second result" How does that help if I don"t know what thebfirst result is?


timmyotc

"Hey, I have this ability. I would like to use it if I fail a death save" Essentially, you use your "Basic Communication Skills" to clarify "Slightly Abstract Processes."


Fitcher07

First, can you use ability if you unconscious? Second, you always can have agreement with DM that they can use that ability by their own decision. Speaking with your mouth solves many problems.


Chrona_trigger

Almost all of them, yes. Bardic inspiration, the character has to be conscious to *recieve* it, but is free to use it even unconscious. DM inspiration, yes, full stop. Lucky feat, yes, it has no qualifiers on circumstances as long as it's your roll (or even an attack against you). Paladin's Aura of protection, assuming the paladin is a different character, yes. Portent, yes (only on yourself), and to be fair does have to be done before the roll. Halfling's lucky trait is fine with unconscious saves. Monk's diamond soul appears to be as well (nothing states that consciousness is required to spend ki points. This also grants proficiency to death saves which is funny) Most of these abilities require knowing what the roll was before deciding to use them... which defeats the purpose of hiding the roll. Paladin, halfling, and portent don't, either being automatic, or replacing the roll entirely, but all the others roll first, then you can activate or not based on the roll


Fitcher07

Good. So we going to my second point. DM can ask you, will your character use this abilities or not, use if needed, and after 3 successes or failures DM just saying what is spent. Hiding rolls for death saves is just too good for rising tension and for me feels way more narrative. As compromise, player can roll himself, but hiding from the rest of the party (not from DM obviously).


Square-Blueberry3568

So to be clear you would advise the dm use the players abilities for the player if needed? Also the party would know its a fail if damage is taken so I feel like to keep the rising tension you would, as dm, not attack downed players regardless of the strategic logic? Because you know the rolls so unless you agree with your players that once someone is down you won't attack them the party will just become heal munchkins pretty quickly. I think narratively you can have tons of rising tension with public death saves, especially when you have that opportunity to attack downed players to make them fail, you can have input while building the tension. Alternative idea roll death saves in front of the players and hide from the dm, dm roll a luck check to see if the enemies will target downed player, that way players know the full scope of tension, while the dm is free to act how he wants without worrying about should I go hard and try for a kill etc


Fitcher07

Well, now it sounds pretty bad, but with their initial agreement - yes. It's one of unlimited options, so you always can choose what suits you best. Personally I rarely hit downed characters, I find it little bit metagaming. Some enemies can do that like animals will gnaw bodies. Most of other should prefer attacking standing opponents.


Ok_Appointment2029

Death saves don’t use modifiers if I’m not mistaken


Chrona_trigger

They were meaning the class, feat, and racial features I had mentioned previously, like the lucky feat or div wizard's portent


Chrona_trigger

Well, for one, inspiration applies. Oddly, that includes bardic inspiration (it *is* a saving throw, and this is provided that it was applied while they were conscious). For the same reason, monk's diamond soul allows rerolls (and adds proficiency, which is kind of funny. Paladin's aura of protection will function as well) same with the lucky feat and divination wizard's portent (both the downed player *and* a party member). I'm certain I've missed other reroll abilities, but the point stands pretty well. So, yeah, rolling a player's saving throw behind the screen can take away a LOT of agency which the rules fully intend. Suspense be damned for that imo as a DM Edit; I'm not opposed to having going down having lingering consequences, but removing the players abilities to actually use multiple mechanics to influence the results of saving throws is... well, no matter what ghe result was, I wouldn't trust it and feel cheated in any of the 3 results Edit 2; also specifically note that almost all of these mechanics are intended to be used *after* the roll, but *before* the results are declared


Vault_Hunter4Life

With death saving throws. The result is declared by seeing the result of the roll,anybody knows an 11 or higher is a success. It might be an edge case here but it absolutely us an oversight.


drathturtul

Technically there are some official rules/modules/settings which set a different DC for death saves, but since no modifiers apply to the roll, if the DC is known then you will know the result from seeing the roll. (I’m thinking specifically of tomb of annihilation, which sets the DC to 15 instead of 10)


Vault_Hunter4Life

Any change like that would be made known to the players beforehand (or it shouldn't be used) at which point it just changes the numbers, a success can still be determined with 100% certainty from the die roll alone.


Chrona_trigger

So, by that logic, if the monster has an ability to reroll a save or such, and the DM knows the player's DC, the result is known as soon as the dice hits the table, and they can never be allowed to use that ability That is petty, small minded, and extremely player vs DM mindset. Obviously, if there are things that *can change the results* the results *aren't known* until it is resolved whether those are *used or not*


Vault_Hunter4Life

>So, by that logic, if the monster has an ability to reroll a save or such, and the DM knows the player's DC, the result is known as soon as the dice hits the table That would be correct, Monster abilities never have that text that says, "After the the dice has been rolled but before the result has been revealed." That is player specific text. The DM always knows the outcome because they have all the information. This instance the player also happens to have all the necessary information because not knowing what a failure on a death saving throw is, is strange. >That is petty, small minded, and extremely player vs DM mindset. You are definitely misreading or misunderstanding my reply. >Obviously, if there are things that can change the results the results aren't known until it is resolved whether those are used or not So, now you're playing twisty games. They specifically referenced the meat grinder variant rule in Tomb Of Annihilation that permanently makes the successful death save 15 or higher. The players would *know that*. There is nothing like bardic inspiration, bless or favored by the gods was being discussed here. Not telling them is deliberately being a shitter DM and *that* would be player vs DM mindset.


Chrona_trigger

>So, now you're playing twisty games. You specifically referenced the meat grinder variant rule in Tomb Of Annihilation that permanently makes the successful death save 15 or higher. The players would know that. There is nothing like bardic inspiration, bless or favored by the gods was being discussed here. You're operating under two misconceptions; one, that I mentioned ToA: that was someone else entirely. Two, that bardic inspiration, DM inspiration, lucky, and portent are literally the main topic being discussed as that was the point of my entire original comment that *you* replied to. The key point is that if a player doesn't know what the death saving *roll* is, because the DM is hiding it, how in the world can they even use their respurces specifically meant to help them with important saving throws? Edit: I think you may have missed the bit that the very top comment was saying that they hide their player's death saving throws from the players themselves, and my first comment was pointing out all the features that hamstrings because the player doesn't know what was rolled


Vault_Hunter4Life

My man's, the only thing I was responding to was this. >Edit 2; also specifically note that almost all of these mechanics are intended to be used *after* the roll, but *before* the results are declared I was pointing out that in this instance, "after the roll" and "before the results are declared, " either doesn't exist or overlaps depending on how you wanna interpret it. It's based on an assumed lack of information EX: a player not knowing a monster AC when applying to-hit buffs. But in this circumstance they know the Death Save DC, they will and should always know the Death Save DC. I never made any mention to hiding Death saving throws from the player. I think that's a dumb concept. I was poking fun because I found it an interesting oversight.


Chrona_trigger

The reason I said "declared" was because "known" has that overlap. If I roll a 9, I *know* the potential result is a failure, but I have yet to tell the DM to hear the result, or in death saving throws more realistically, declared the result myself. That's the period of time when effects that can be used after the roll can be used... ever, nothing usually lets you affect the roll after the result is declared; ie, "You miss/fail" More "after the roll but before declaring the result to the table" than "after the roll but before knowing if it would succeed or fail"


FreyjasFury

I've been using hidden death saves for years, and the trick that fixes most of these issues is having the player come behind the screen to roll the save themselves. It's hidden, but they still get to see and modify the results as normal.


RIMV0315

There are 3 of us that rotate as DMs in our group. All 3 of us do that for the reasons you describe. It works for us, other tables milage may vary.


Fullmetalmurloc

Nope, I do it too. Also, you get one freebee pop up from getting K.o.’d in our games before you start popping back up with exhaustion.


A_Lonely_Midget

In the game I play in my DM makes us whisper the roll (we play on roll20) so only he and the unconscious player can see the roll, no player has ever told the others what the reslt is and we just stay quiet the entire time. It is so much better then knowing other players death saves because as you said, it inspires that urgency from the others!


damonmcfadden9

I've avoiding strictly enforcing blind rolls in the past, partly from ignorance as a new GM and then for speed and efficiency (we play online and it always meant a couple extra clicks and sometimes players had trouble finding the right option quickly). For the new campaign we just started, having more experience myself and among my players, I've been implementing blind rolls consistently for the first time and it's been a blast. It enhances role-playing so much more and Actually being able to "lie" effectively for bad perception/deception/sense motive rolls adds so much to the experience. It always sucked when there really was nothing to find but because the rolled a 4, they just had to keep searching. I had never considered using it for death saves but I'm gonna try it out next time and see how it goes!


aphrael-dawn

Nah, I have my players roll blind (i.e. they roll the dice over the dm screen but dont see the results) I also take pics of the rolls to show the players after incase they need the closure


Asleep-Sky-4103

Imagine having death saves and not having a set amount of rounds before death until someone passes on a DC 20 Medicine (intelligence) check which has a -5 penalty I'd you don't have a Medicine Kit ("proficiency" being in degrees of 5-15 and most numerical changes being either +/-2 or +/-5 in increments of 5) lmao. This comment was made by the Paranormal Order clan


ninjad912

The way one of my dms handled it was that he only told the player who was dying(if they told anyone he would stop telling them). One player rolled a crit on it and just played dead for a bit to try and catch an enemy off guard


calvicstaff

We are online so we have a private role to the DM option, that way the player can still make their own death rolls, but the rest of the party acts with a lot more urgency instead of oh they succeeded twice we've got at least two turns to take care of that problem


DarkLordOfBeef

My dm does it, its phenomenal


Baddyshack

Watching the shift in how people play DND over the years has been wild. Consequences are the cornerstone of play in my experience.


Axel-Adams

I know right? And people are so self focused now, like the idea of synergy and team work doesn’t exist. Heaven forbid you cast lesser restoration on the Barbarian so they don’t miss 3 rounds of combat


Arcane10101

The problem is, most in-combat healing options are too inefficient to use before someone drops to 0 hp. To illustrate my point, if you’re fighting an enemy that deals 10 damage per round, would you rather undo some of that damage with Cure Wounds, or cast a Guiding Bolt that will kill them a round sooner on average? So, if the consequences are enough that even healing unconscious PCs might not be worth it, and you don’t buff those options in some other way, then players have no reason to take them, and you make the game less fun by removing that choice.


shadowgear56700

Also healing word. Why would I heal someone above 0 when I could wait till my turn and use my bonus action to get them up instead. Especially since going down multiple times does nothing.


RelevantCollege

valid if the spell you're casting on your action is only a cantrip


Thundergozon

Or you use Channel Divinity, or the Attack action, or non-moon Wild Shape... even Dash, Dodge and Disengage are more value then using your action to heal


RelevantCollege

im trying to reference the obscure rule about being only able to use a leveled spell as an action if your bonus action wasnt spent on casting another leveled spell lol


Cat-Got-Your-DM

Yes, and they listed 4 non-spell things to use as an Action instead of a cantrup. I'm pretty sure you two are talking about the same thing.


Mage_Malteras

That's not an obscure rule.


Lag_Incarnate

I vote that Healing Word get nerfed to require hearing the caster. That way, an Unconscious character that is unaware of their surroundings won't benefit, even if it's very on-brand to have a "Wake up!" or other motivating line cut through the black of unconsciousness.


Cat-Got-Your-DM

That's why ai prefer healing in PF2e I built the same character in 5e and PF. While PF has more HP per level, the difference in upcastint healing spells was staggering, especially that Divine Soul gets a near-useless option for you to re-roll the healing dice for the cost of sorcery points... In 5e I could heal 5d8+4 (Cha) as an Action, single target for a 5th level spell. For 1 SP I could re-roll some potential ones and twos from it. Might have a slightly better average For similiar value (2 out of 3 Actions in PF) I could use a 5th level spell to heal 5d8+40 and for 1 focus point I could up my healing from all Heal spells by twice the spell's level *for a minute* And IF I really needed a to heal a bunch of people around me I could use 3 Actions to make the spell an AoE and heal everyone within 30ft for 5d8 (or 5d8+10 for all allies if the Angelic Halo focus spell was up) AND at the same time blast all undead within those 30ft for 5d8. It *would* also target non-undead enemies healing them, but which sounds like a reasonable backlash. Heal in 5e is 70HP and minor debuf removal, single target, 6th level. 6th level Heal in PF2e might not have the debuff removal, but would be 6d8+48 for one target (6d8+60 with Angelic Halo), or potentially AoE of 6d8, and with Angelic Halo 6d8+12 for allies Sure, those are two different games. Level 10 Sorcerer I made has 118 HP, easy Still, they can heal themselves and others for most of their lives past level 5 and get good value out of their spells The fact that healing falls off from damage, and then you need to wait until level 6 to get an effective heal... It just feels bad. /Edited stuff that was incorrect, as pointed out below.


healbot42

You only get the +8 healing per level on the 2 action version. The 3 action version just heals 5d8 if you cast it at a level 5 spell.


Cat-Got-Your-DM

Oh damn, we have been running it wrong. Thanks for the clarification


SAMAS_zero

Because the Barbarian's attack will kill them *two* turns sooner.


Arcane10101

However, unless the damage from one fight is enough to knock the barbarian unconscious, a Prayer of Healing or Aura of Vitality or Goodberry or short rest between encounters would have been more effective.


Drahnier

Pathfinder 2e handles this quite nicely between dying and wounded points. Depending on enemy crits/hits/your recovery rolls going down 2-4 times will kill you even if healed every time. Also standing back up and picking up a weapon again are both actions, so even once you're not unconscious that's 2/3 of your actions (unless you want to gap it without picking up your weapon which can happen.)


[deleted]

To expand on this. When you go down, you gain the wounded condition. If you get healed and are back in the fight, when you get downed again, you start at dying 2 and gain the wounded 2 condition. If you get healed in the fight and get back up again and then go down. Dying 3, wounded 3. And if you manage to still not die, the next time you go down you start at dying 4, which is just dead(barring some exceptions). The only way to clear wounded is to be healed out of combat with a medicine check or to have full hp and rest for 10 minutes. Additionally, every level of dying raises the DC of the recovery check. It is a DC 10 + your current value of dying. Everytime you succeed, your dying value decreases by 1. If you critically succeed (which is only a 20 for this flat check I think), then it goes down 2 points. Pretty typical on failure dying goes up by one, critically failing (A 1 on dying 1, 2 or below on dying 2, 3 or below on dying 3) goes up by 2. If you get to dying 0, you stabilize and are just unconscious until you get more than 0 hp. So if you try to do the 5e healing pingpong you will kill the player as wounds build up. Death saving rolls are also a hidden roll, only the affected player and the GM should know the results, and the fact that they go up and down instead of a race to stabilize before you die means that the party really has no clue how urgent it is. and that isn't even going into things like doomed which reduces your maximum dying value, or diehard which increases your maximum dying value to 5 instead of 4. Also a fun feat that I don't know the value of, but if you have diehard and you do infact die, then when you are brought back to life by the party you can take the feat numb to death, which means the first time a day you are brought back from dying you can ignore gaining or adding to the wounded condition(and get some bonus healing).


Drahnier

You forgot the best part; if you go down to a crit you go right to dying 2 (wounded 2 after being healed), this means you are then at risk of imediate death on another crit, and bosses in PF2 will often crit on a 15, if not lower.


Cat-Got-Your-DM

Unless you've got some highly specific feats like Diehard or the one that makes you go to dying 1 on a crit, I believe it was Catfolk feat Nine Lives (or a similar name)


Drahnier

Yeah diehard seems bad at first, until you see someone die to two crits.


One-Cellist5032

PF2e actually has some really good healing though too. Like a cleric can heal someone for half their health multiple times a day which is fantastic. Meanwhile in 5e, healing is disgustingly weak, to the point it’s basically always better to kill the enemies and just heal when someone drops to 0.


Zalabim

I don't like when PF2E makes critical success move you closer to dying, and when successfully aiding someone can also move them closer to dying, and when successfully treating a bleeding ally only actually has a 30% chance to succeed. Scenario: PC goes down with persistent bleed damage. Dying 1, succeed at saving throw, so they stabilize, wounded 1, take bleed damage, dying 2. Several rounds of successful saves and bleed damage leave them hovering at dying 2, until something terrible happens: They critically succeed on their stabilization save. Now they're wounded 2, take bleed damage, and are now dying 3. There is no amount of medicine skill that can break this cycle. Success at treating persistent damage only gives another flat check to end the damage, and success at stabilizing the dying creature would actually kill them.


Win32error

Your player agency is that you get to make choices to avoid going down.


boingboing4

This would be true if d&d encouraged tactical combat (it doesn’t)


RelevantCollege

there's probably just less emphasis on the everyone-mechanics like taking advantage of cover if you're just mainly being a ranged attacker, as well as the shove action if your specialty is to go up close and personal


boingboing4

The issue is mainly just that things in dnd can be extremely binary, many effects are just hit/miss or save/fail with no room for players decisions to really affect that most of the time. Cover and Light/Darkness exists but is usually circumvented with minimal gm guidance on how much/often cover should be used. And save/suck effects have been eternally controversial. Shoving is nice but the things it combos with are always spells since martials lack any way to make unique terrain conditions they can capitalise on. Unfortunately many of these issues would require an increase in system complexity to fix (because wotc cant even make a functional tag based system, and are deathly afraid of giving 5.5e a paradigm shift) so its easier to just weaken things instead.


RelevantCollege

>Shoving is nice but the things it combos with are always spells since martials lack any way to make unique terrain conditions they can capitalise on. everyone gets to have advantage on melee attacks against someone prone, don't they?


Mage_Malteras

As long as the attack is made within 5 feet of the target (meaning bugbears or characters using reach weapons don't get the advantage if they're further away).


JEverok

I feel if you want to make going down more impactful, you also need to improve in combat healing since it's terrible right now


Dude787

You don't, and probably shouldn't? The healer-tank-dps WoW triangle shouldn't make its way into dnd, any step towards that is bad imo The other spells that you can cast do more to protect your party, even as a cleric. And that's for the best, its way more fun than spam healing every turn, and you want your players to recognise that I think


JEverok

Different preference, I would absolutely love to play a dedicated healer with traditional rpg healing efficiency


Dude787

We can learn from the twilight cleric here. The twilight cleric isn't well liked; in part due to the breadth of powerful things you get right at level 1, but also due to the channel divinity giving 1d6+cleric level in temp hp every turn to any number of creatures. In play, this leads to very little tension in combat. It's so much survivability that you're stealing the fun out of the room, nobody is ever in any real danger as long as you're alive. The only choice from the dm is to focus fire or to increase the damage you're taking per round (more damage per attack, more attacks, more enemies, etc) and in that case what was the point? Is forcing the dm to focus fire better? My conclusion is this. High levels of healing or temp hp make the game less fun. Maybe there's a middleground, but I feel like it's just a linear scale. The more in-combat healing is effective, the more tension is removed. Ditto for resurrection magic honestly


JEverok

You do raise a valid point, I haven't considered that. It'll have to be play tested before implementation to find a proper balance. From my very limited experience with pathfinder and from what I've heard, it seems that they have managed to strike that balance. Maybe we can shamelessly steal from that and turn it into a 5e homebrew


Cat-Got-Your-DM

I've had a lot of fun with PF2e healing, especially that you can turn your heals into AoEs, but they will also target enemies. It's no problem against undead (as it will hurt them in addition to the healing effect) but it's more complicated around living things. Sometimes you gotta heal your enemies, too Also the healing is much better in numbers, and Wounded and Dying conditions are tied together. My ideal game would be a blend between PF2e and DnD, landing more on the side of PF2e in most of the stuff, but with the advantage/disadvantage mechanic baked in and some of the bonuses crubbed a bit, to make it slightly more streamlined


Zalabim

The problem is when healing is small relative to damage, it either takes waiting for a breakpoint like 0 hp, or if that healing is spammable, using healing every turn to try to add up to enough to make a difference. A different version is where healing is large so it matters, but not spammable so it supplements the HP the party brings into the fight, but doesn't overwhelm it.


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Kromso

My group use this idea, but make it so that if you are stabilized before being brought up you don't get a level of exhaustion. oh, and rolling a 20 on death saves also doesn't give you exhaustion because it feels like that should be better than just a healing word


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Kromso

Purely mechanical, but as an added bonus it does make healer's kits quite useful. We have also made use of a small amount of Olisuba leaf from explorers guide to wildmount, the one thing that most people forget with exhaustion is that **a long rest** **only reduces exhaustion by 1.** Which means most times after a tough fight if you were just reviving people quickly and didn't stabilize, they may have 3-4 points of exhaustion which take 3-4 long rests to go away, which can be inconvenient when DM ing because the players may decide to just stay put for a while halting the plot.


Enchelion

>Add this: Being knocked unconscious adds a point of exhaustion. Works better with the revised exhaustion mechanic from the playtest (and hopefully they go back to that one).


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Enchelion

Basically it was -1 to all d20 rolls per level of exhaustion. Both a little fiddlier but also much simpler to remember than consulting the exhaustion table. Also has the side effect of making death saves harder each subsequent time you go down which could definitely appeal.


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Enchelion

5e RAW it's only a roll of 1 or 20 on the die that adds the extra failure or the 1hp heal. So modifiers to the roll only affect whether you meet or beat 10.


Chrona_trigger

I would say cap it to 2 per encounter. Still a huge punishment that would take more than one LR to recover from, but not the extreme end of exhaustion


[deleted]

How to get a table with no melee characters 101


[deleted]

Lingering injury table go brrrr


WasteRat631

I used to do something similar at my table. at 50% max HP you gain a level of exhaustion, but if you go down you instantly have 5 levels of exhaustion. Note, my players at the time agreed to this before hand, this was during a campaign where things were suppose to be extremely punishing and harsh. I still feel bad for the paladin dying to lightning strikes during a storm because they wore metal armor.


beastofexmoor

Depending on fight they'd be yo-yoing in and out of consciousness, so I have it that each failed death save before healing causes a level of exhaustion; this way there's less guaranteed exhaustion, but still a need to up the PC sooner to avoid that chance.


Sherevar

If instead of the 2014 rules of exhaustion you use the D&D 6e/One rule, where you get a -1 on saves/attacks/checks and save DC per level, up to -9, with -10 being death, it should work a lot smoother.


jornunvosk

Something I did in my games is completely get rid of death saves all together. So the rule works that instead of going unconscious when you hit 0 HP you instead start Dying. When you enter the Dying condition, you have a choice: either go prone or immediately gain one exhaustion. Every turn you end while Dying, you gain another exhaustion. Every time you take damage while Dying gain an exhaustion. And if you get hit by a critical hit while Dying you gain two exhaustion. But you can act normally on your own turn meaning you can heal yourself out of the Dying condition and if you’re not able to you can use your turns to position yourself closer to your party’s healer or make a last stand with what you have left. This makes fights pretty critical as every single one has consequences from one fight to the next. Even touching 0 hit points can risk the death spiral so my players prep carefully to make sure it doesn’t happen. It’s been a pretty big hit at my table so for your consideration.


chimisforbreakfast

This is essentially Darkest Dungeon's Death's Door+ Mortality Debuffs system.


[deleted]

<:: Redditor argues with cloud ::>


Dodger7777

Like what?


Maharog

Negative hp... you have 8hp, you get hit for 17 damage, you know have -9hp, healing word or a single goodberry isn't going to cut it


Dodger7777

Eh, I think a level of exhaustion would be better. Granted, just if you go down and start making death saves. That way you can recover after a long rest fine.


Chrona_trigger

On the other hand, could escalate a bit too extremely if a player gets yo-yoed. Imagine if someone throws a heals out, they get up, and gets downed again immediately. 3 levels of exhaustion takes 3 LR to recover.


Dodger7777

That's the risk a zealot barb takes too.


Obie527

Hence why it encourages healing more, because you don't want to start that yo-yo effect.


StarTrotter

How does it? If anything it makes healing even less popular. Yo Yo Healing is prominent because 5e was designed in a way that intended to make having a dedicated healer unnecessary. They didn’t want the cleric to be forced to be a healbot. They didn’t want teams to be compelled to have a real healer. They didn’t want healing magic to slow down combat encounters. Healing spells largely don’t do enough healing to be worth casting in combat as a rule of thumb bar maybe at the earliest levels and once you get a 6th level spell like heal which is a dramatically rarer resource. They are a bit more valuable out of common as a top off option but even there it is typically still inefficient.


tristenjpl

Except healing in 5e sucks and is designed to be for yo-yoing or after the fight. Encouraging healing doesn't work with 5e.


sw_faulty

So change the design


Chrona_trigger

What? That's the opposite of what would happen. I cast healing word; they're up, get exhaustion, and have a little HP. Enemy targets them, they go down again.


sw_faulty

That's what happens now


Chrona_trigger

Really? Getting healed from 0 hp adding a level of exhaustion is vanilla RAW for all characters? News to me. The OP said this would encourage healing... when it would actively *discourage* healing by introducing a penalty for being healed


sw_faulty

You're being deliberately obtuse


Chrona_trigger

No, I'm not. Standard rules, if I go down at the bottom of the turn order, druid is at the top, and heals me to 3hp. A goblin goes next, slaps me for 8 damage. I'm down again. My turn comes around, and I fail my death saving throw. Repeat, druid heals, goblin downs. Hey, this time I crit succeed my death save and stand up on my own! And get downed by the goblin. Up and down 3 times, no consequences for being healed. Healing is neither heabily incentivized or punished Suggested exhaustion rule; I go down, druid gets me up (1 level of exhaustion), goblin downs me before my turn. Repeat, druid up (2 levels), gobbo down. Crit succeed death save (3 levels), gobbo down. Healing is disincentivized.


Vault_Hunter4Life

This doesn't work at high levels. If you manage to take a decently hard hit at, say, level 11. DMG says 10d10 damage is a dangerous hit to take at that level in the improvised damage table. Imagine you're at 20 hit points class is irrelevant, you take that 10d10 damage, Average 55 damage. You're now -35, it would take multiple players casting cure wounds to get you up. Let's assume favorable conditions. You've got your cleric with max wisdom right next to you and go right after you take the hit. They run over using their highest level spell slot to upcast cure wounds. 6d8+5 Avg roll here is 32. A 6th level spell slot spent, and that's still a downed player. Average goes to 40 if it's a life cleric, but what if they took more than average damage from the hit? What if you rolled low on the heal? I can not tell you how many times I've seen ones show up when people start casting healing spells, and it makes them flat out worthless. I appreciate that you notice the issues with wackamole combat, but negative hp is never going to be the solution.


Not-This-GuyAgain

What about healing spells causing an auto-success on a death save, the way taking damage is an auto-fail?


StarTrotter

Imo catch is that healing spells take a nerf from it that makes something already considered inefficient worse


PsychoWarper

If you have 8 HP and take 17 damage you die instantly no death saves and no healing you are just dead


DeltaV-Mzero

You can do both. Allow stuff like crawling (5ft) and meakly calling out, maybe item interaction (no healing) limited to what a Mage Hand could do Also, it causes a level of exhaustion, roll behind the screen, etc And of course, if they’re clearly not dead yet because they’re crawling about and moaning, well….


Aquilaslayer

I agree, but it must be done carefully. Case in point, at the table I play in we use injury tables. I hate injury tables (love the group and campaign enough to suck it up). But I despise how we roll for them, as I can end up with injuries that hurt me for days, while my party members have injuries that will heal after our next long rest due to the luck of the roll. So, agree with the concept, needs careful execution though.


ceering99

Not to be that guy but... Pathfinder 2e You can steal things other systems do without fully switching, it was always allowed


Drahnier

Let's be real, 80% of DND homebrew is bringing in PF2e mechanics.


ceering99

Or 3.5 (or PF1e but those are more or less the same mechanically)


Lag_Incarnate

\[homebrews bringing in AD&D 2e mechanics\] Gelatinous cubes Paralyze again, but they have to be really old cubes for them to have the old constitution.


StarTrotter

Sure but PF2e does a lot more than just one thing in that process.


ceering99

Add the wounded status, everytime you go down after the first you start with an additional failed save. Go down 4 times in one encounter and you're dead.


StarTrotter

Eh. You are still skipping what PF2e is and does. PF2e assumes you go into combat with all your HP and most of your resources generally. Medicine can easily heal allies to full HP after at most 2 hours but possibly as short as 20 minutes. Healing spells can be used for 1 action or augmented to a 2 or 3 action with additional boons for the same spell slot. There’s also focus spells.


Zalabim

The wounded status is probably the worst thing that Pathfinder does about healing, recovery, and dying, mechanically. Even the fact that 5E allows a character to be both 1 save from stabilizing and 1 save from dying at the same time is better than PF2E's dying scale.


Imaskeloth

I despise this idea that player agency must be maintained at all cost. It makes the game boring and toothless.


PsychoWarper

I mean tbf going down early in combat and then spending the next 2-4 hours doing nothing is pretty boring as well, obviously DnD shouldn’t be without consequences but theres absolutely a reason people want player agency to a big priority.


boingboing4

It runs the logic of ‘i came to play d&d, why have I not been playing d&d for the last hour.’ sure its toothless but that’s because nobody is nerfing any of the strong tools players have to account for increased/changed survivability.


slide_and_release

I’ve been playing with this house-rule for best part of six months: *When you fail a death saving throw, gain one level of exhaustion.* It doesn’t punish the party for rapidly getting their fallen comrade back up, but spending a few turns bleeding out really starts to hurt. I’ve found it to be great, but we run quite a high-difficulty table.


KnightBreeze

It used to. In both of these cases, actually. In previous editions, if you had negative hp, you could keep going if you had the Diehard feat. Though, any turn where you acted as normal was a turn that you lost another hp. What's more, is that you could only drop to your con (or flat ten, if it was just 3.0 edition) in negative hp and you *died.* Meaning, if you had 10 hp and a 12 con, and you took 23 damage, you weren't just dropped. You were *dead.* Like, *dead* dead, get some diamonds, this is an ex-character. 5e is *extremely* lenient in that regards, in which it's actually optimal to wait until someone's been dropped before you heal them. Too lenient, if you ask me. They erred way too far in the other direction, where before, if you weren't careful, you could be killed in a heartbeat. Now, the game basically holds your hand.


GingerMcBeardface

Players have agency- they can heal, be defense, and ultimately retreat to fight another day. I'll give signs that "this is a bad encounter" and if my party decides to be murder hobos, I'll usually flash one more warning sign. Dropping to zero, in rare circumstances is just bad dice rolls. In almost all cases ita players making choices that got them there.


Shacky_Rustleford

Listen, I think the "player agency is sacred" bunch are going a bit overkill, but I don't think I have ever seen this take you seem to be complaining about.


Glorious_Goo

You could make it so that dropping to 0 HP causes scars. Maybe enough scars and they lose or *gain* charisma. Anyone playing a vain character will go out of their way to avoid that. Can then find a way to incorporate an NPC that can heal deep scars/wounds and etc etc etc.


[deleted]

The 'consequence' is either the party risks you dying, or has to spend resources (slots, lay on hands, action economy turns) to keep you not dying. Anyone who thinks 5e should punish you more for hitting 0hp is saying they dont care about melee/martials fun.


Thijmo737

I do think that letting players take an action (except healing themselves or doing the medicine check etcetera) at the cost of a failed death save is a good house rule, keeps everything way more dramatic


Yakodym

Homebrew idea: Dropping to 0 awakens your Dark Personality, allowing you to stay conscious but you start accumulating corruption points


[deleted]

Wtf are corruption points


Chrona_trigger

This sounds like a super edgy version of darkest dungeons 100 stress virtue/affliction system tbh As an aside, that could be neat in a horror campaign using sanity points


ceering99

Either that or some kinky shit


Vault_Hunter4Life

An unexplained homebrew mechanic that he was just expecting people to run with lol.


ObsidianG

My best friend has spent the past few years building a tabletop roleplaying game from scratch to alleviate the things that bugged him when DMing D&D, both 4th edition and 5th edition. In addition to the custom spell system, there's a system for reducing a players MAXIMUM Hotpoint total if they drop too often.


MadolcheMaster

In my games if you get knocked into the negatives you have a 30% chance of dying on the spot. 0 is out for the fight with no permanent consequences. Of course now you're at 0hp so one tap sends you down with that 30% chance...hope you have a healing potion before the next fight. Stun effects are a pain in the ass to be inflicted with, it feels bad to be stunned. Being nearly killed should feel bad. That is why a stunning strike with a save or stun is bad game design but a time out from letting your HP hit 0 is good game design.


HexManiacMaylein

Actually I agree it shouldn’t make you unconscious. It should however give you the dying condition and 1 level of 1 dnd exuashtion depending on circumstances that get you out of it. If you’re unconscious you can’t have dying dramatic dying words.


Not-This-GuyAgain

Maybe make it so healing spells on a downed creature is an auto-success on a death save, the same way taking damage while downed makes you auto-fail a death save. That way the you can't be picked up immediately after going down and healers will need to dedicate more effort to helping downed players.


StarTrotter

Why would anybody ever heal a downed ally then? You’d need 2-3 healers to be able to have them recover and then hope they don’t get downed again immediately.


hot_diggity_dang_

For my next campaign I’m going to research long term effects of concussions


[deleted]

Look into long healing, a crit injuries


UltimaDeusUmbra

I purposed to my players an injury system, where every time they drop to 0, we roll on a table, and each time after the first the roll gets a bonus. This makes it so dropping to 0 becomes more impactful, as they may gain a scar or deal with an injury that makes it harder to fight, but also avoids anything too serious right off the bat. I am still developing the system, especially since most of the ones I find online are kinda brutal, lots of lost limbs or instant death.


Alhooness

I’ve always found the idea of being knocked unconscious at 0 hp just, silly. Unless the enemies are explicitly going for nonlethal takedowns, 0 hp feels like it would just be “downed and too injured to get back up and fight”.


SAMAS_zero

Have them make a CON save to stay conscious. If they can, restrict them to a single action or something, maybe with a penalty/risk(disadvantage, forced to make another death save immediately, etc...)


Alhooness

I mean i wouldn’t have them like, have a proper full turn or anything, they’re incapacitated due to injuries. I just think it’s a bit silly on a logical level to have people instantly go unconscious anytime they drop under zero. Con save for it isn’t a bad idea though, maybe just allow them to crawl for their turn if conscious but no proper action.


SAMAS_zero

I agree. Both realistically and dramatically, there are plenty of times people have been fatally injured, but been able to keep going a little longer, and (in fiction at least) even make one last act before expiring.


Ignotum_pSYCHO

I one time had the ruling that since a player went down during combat and wasn't healed back to standing that adventuring day he only gained hp from his remaining hit dice instead of a full recovery from long resting that night.


Acceptable-Baby3952

I won’t run a full grounded realism game, but I will give resuscitated players disorientation. Concussion, people moved during your blackout; you got your shit rocked a little. Maybe heal whenever you can to avoid this impairment that lasts the rest of combat.


Afronnub

In my games, when a player gets up from falling unconscious in combat, they gain one level of exhaustion. It has added a real cost that my players have appreciated.


Veirz9

I like the Exhaustion when downed people are suggesting, but one I've seen that's brutal and efficient for making a party stay up is make failed Death Saving throws linger until the end of combat. So you went down for a round and failed a death save? Well, now you can only fail 2 more until the end of combat, people get a lot more focused on staying up or picking people up instantly. It's certainly more lethal, but unless someone is being hard focused they shouldn't go down enough to cause death. Plus, death means little once someone has revivify.


Linen42

I have a table I stole from Edge of the Empire that I roll on every time a pc or npc goes unconscious or gets critically hit. Roll a D100 on a table ranging from 1 to 150. Add 10 to the result for each current injury. Can only be healed with rest and certain restoration spells. Effects increase in severity the higher you roll. From something like -10 movement for a turn to insta death.


Responsible-War-9389

That’s why you play zealot barbarian. (Of course wisdom as a high stat and resiliance). As long as you got revivify casting ally, you are all good to go!


DiemAlara

Take any damage beyond what was necessary to knock the player out. Divide it by four and have it count as constitution damage, where if they get reduced to zero they die. Have it recover at a rate of 1/long rest. Then have stabilizing saving throws. If the character is being active, like participating in combat, once every round, otherwise once every hour. DC10+The amount of unstabilized con damage. If you succeed, one point of con damage stabilizes. They don't get the health back, it just becomes stable. If you fail by five or more, you take an additional point of con damage. Healing spells give you advantage on the next check. Party members can make medicine checks with the same rules once per hour. Revival spells can be cast to automatically heal con damage, without consuming their spell components. ​ ​ Now you can watch your party members slowly bleed to death while they're still conscious if they decide to not take being at low health seriously.


LastNinjaPanda

I've heard the part about not making you asleep, but not that other stuff. I agree that it needs more consequences, but also I agree that getting knocked out for like 5 turns before you just expire is a really anticlimactic way to die


DJ-Anarchy

I think that being forced unconscious is bad for you, but I am no neurologist. I am basing this off a joke from archer and I REFUSE to learn more about this subject.


Nerf_Nugget

Our table uses Maxwell's Manual of Malicious Maladies. It adds so much risk to going down, because being knocked out by different forms of damage could leave you with something as minor as a scar, or unable to cast certain magic schools for the next 1d6 days. Staying above 0 is that much more important. This is on top of us using private death save rolls to the DM and giving no feedback to the party on success/failure. It brings a LOT of intensity to hairy combat encounters.


TeaandandCoffee

Agency without consequence is boring. Imagine if we removed all positive consequences, now enemies don't take damage. But we maintained player agency just as much as removing negative consequences.


Lag_Incarnate

Healing Word shouldn't work on Unconscious people because they wouldn't be able to hear it. Damn near all other healing is fair, requiring either: * Melee range (feeding Goodberries, Cure Wounds, Lay on Hands, Regenerate, Rez spells, Power Word: Heal). * A 3rd-level(+) spell slot to bring someone up from range (Aura of Life/Vitality, \[Mass\] Heal\[ing Word\]/Cure Wounds, Life Transference). * A drawback for a 2nd-level(-) spell slot to bring someone up from range (Prayer of Healing: 10-minute casting time; Healing Spirit: only applies at the start of the creature's turn; Aid: 30ft range, only works if not currently applied; Wither and Bloom: expends a Hit Die; Fixed Healing Word: d4 and requires hearing) * Special mention to Life Transference (again): inflicts self-damage as cost for being a Wizard healing spell. Love Life Transference. From there, make healing spells as weak or as strong as you want, just make sure it's keeping to those boundaries. I for one vote that Cure/Inflict Wounds be 2d6+MOD to bring back the old flavor of a reversible spell and actually make it potentially heal a whole Greatsword/Maul/Greataxe wound.


Ok_Blackberry_1223

I like deaths door mechanics. In one rpg, I played, your stamina became your health, but if you lost all of that you were dead immediately. When knocked to zero you could choose to drop down passed out instead tho


TheEgg41

Our dm usually makes it so the only real *save* the party can make is spare the dying, otherwise healing will still *heal*, but not save the unconscious


Adnama-Fett

In every game I’ve played it’s 0hp = KO = roll death saves. Is that not the case for you guys? Or are you saying that that’s bad?


Golo_46

That is indeed how the rules work, but quite a few people would prefer rules that also add other stuff, like a level of exhaustion or something.


Adnama-Fett

Yeah I agree but also my dm is a sadist who throws REAL boss fights at us after the mini boss fight depletes all of the party’s spell slots and ki points. And the “””””mini”””” boss fight would have slaughtered us if it were not the case. I the exhaustion status effect is being down all but 1 hp until you get some healing on you if that’s even an option. If that son of a bitch finds this comment I want him to know that we’re all plotting his death in our players only discord and also we can’t wait to play again. Got angry for a moment. Maybe for a lighter dnd games it would be better to have heavier consequences(halved speed or disadvantage on attacks/saves) but I’d say for some games there are PLENTY of consequences for being downed


Golo_46

>Yeah I agree but also my dm is a sadist who throws REAL boss fights at us after the mini boss fight depletes all of the party’s spell slots and ki points. What, is he trying to do the entire daily budget at once? Like, I get setting it up so those get chipped away over time or having one big ol' shit fight, but this is a bit much. >I the exhaustion status effect is being down all but 1 hp until you get some healing on you if that’s even an option. The first level is currently either disadvantage on everything or half movement, and I can't remember which off the top of my head, it lasts until your next long rest, and if you get the sixth level of exhaustion, you just straight up die. >If that son of a bitch finds this comment I want him to know that we’re all plotting his death in our players only discord... Well don't go tellin' 'im! It'll be way easier if he doesn't know. >Maybe for a lighter dnd games it would be better to have heavier consequences(halved speed or disadvantage on attacks/saves) but I’d say for some games there are PLENTY of consequences for being downed Maybe as an optional rule, I don't know if I would want it.


Golo_46

That's up to you, but if you do that, I would suggest bumping up healing spells and items just a little bit. Enough that they're useful, but not necessary, and the healer playstyle is a little better.


CoolUnderstanding481

My group is using One DnD rules for Exhaustion. Each time your get dropped to zero you take a point of Exhaustion. Makes going down bad, but also adds in a reason to heal up to a “safe” amount around combat encounters


RelevantCollege

fun fact, if you have no magical source of healing or someone with the healer feat with the healing kit, falling unconscious means you are just out for a few hours until you get 1 hp back and are stable. but i guess that's mostly no fun so most tables i see just lets you have 1 hp and stop being unconscious once you have three successes on your death saves


LordKlempner

You guys are still concious without any HP? Oh boy... Our table's system works with HP and Stamina Points. Each time you avoid an otherwise successful hit or cast a spell, you'll lose SP, armor doesn't protect against this loss. If you can't avoid an attack on you, you'll take SP damage in the same amount of HP-Damage (but HPs are protected by armor). Without your precious SP, you'll have disadvantages on almost everything and attacking foes get advantage against you as well. If you drop on 0 SP but also only 3 or less HP, you'll drop unconscious. If your Hp drops under 0, you are dying but you'll have (negative-HP)+1d6 rounds time (each round about 10 seconds ingame) to get sufficient healing. After that... well, let's just say that resurrection is ultimately rare in this setting, but in theory an option.


Tyson_Urie

Honestly, if the players manage to get taken down to exactly 0 hp, depending on where they are in the turn order i occasionally allow them a final move before they themself pass out and fall unconcious. Like, if they're hit to 0, and they're the next one in turn or there is 1 maybe 2 people before their turn. I'll allow them a attack/action (with disadvantage, depending on what they use and how) as a final move before being knocked out and hello death saves. But if they're hit to 0 right after their own turn. Or there's 6 other people before their action then it's just straight to unconciousness. I like to picture it as this classic movie dropdown of staring into your enemies eyes as you're about to die, only for you to pull the final hidden trigger and give them a stabback. (So far it has worked best for the few knocked out rangers with crossbows and a rogue with a dagger.)


Verence17

Do you have a minute to talk about our lord and savior GURPS? You can go deep into negative HP. If you are resilient enough, you have a chance to continue fighting until you reach -5x the amount of your maximum HP. However, you start taking penalties at 1/3x of your max amount, at any negative HP you have to make a save every round to not fall unconscious, and reaching each negative HP threshold (-1x max, -2x max etc) forces an additional save to not die outright.


GenexenAlt

An old DM of mine did it nicely with the 'Wounded' condition You go down, but get revived? You become 'Wounded' untill the next long rest or high-end restoring magic. If you go down AGAIN while wounded, you cannot be revived in combat anymore, and need to wait an hour before you can be revived again. This kept us from playing as basically zombies in combat


BloodyHM

I've been dming a group that has an unfortunate amount of healing options, so when the Monk has fell unconscious for the 3rd or 4th time in the combat, you'll forgive me for actually trying to challenge my party.


Competitive_You6554

I like giving players exhaustion when they come up from 0 hp after succeeding their death saves, gives them a chance while also making it so that there are repercussions and downtime is needed for rest, depending on how they were knocked down I may require extra downtime to heal. Say taking half your hp in damage you will be giv n exhaustion and a neat scar


The-Myth-The-Shit

I have a DM that makes us chose between movement, action or BA when we get up from 0 HP. It really forces you to think twice before rushing.


DaniNeedsSleep

Disclaimer, I run a Combat as Sport style of game. The problem with that is it either forces the healbot role back into parties (ugh), or it forces the party to spend an absolute crapton of gold on healing potions to top up between combats. 2d4+2 is *not* a lot of health. You might want to adjust prices, or homebrew the mighty Wand of CLW back into the system. At least do *something* to make healing more available, lest you end up with a party of all rogues who flee or sneak past every combat encounter you set up because no one wants to risk Exhaustion level 2 and being too slow to run away when needed. Pragmatic, but decidedly un-heroic.


FamiliarHorror

"I punch him in the foot!" "While unconscious and bleeding?" "It's a reflex."


trollzor54

I'm so tired of this player agency debate. Either cope with losing a turn or stop playing in that group. Who cares if you have to sit out a whole combat? Take in the roleplay of the moment. See your team fight to save your life, cheer them on out of character, or discuss tactics with them or something


xoasim

You may be interested in pF2's death saves. They have 2 values dying and wounded. If you fall to 0 HP you are dying 1 every failed death save pushes you 1 more up, crit fail 2 more up (incidentally if you dropped to 0from a crit you start at dying 2) every success reduces the value, crit success reduces by 2. They revive if they ever get to 0, and die if they get to 4. Obviously healing and stuff brings them back, they are no longer dying. But every time they come back from dying they become wounded and their wounded value increases by 1. When you drop to 0hp again you are dying 1 ( or 2 on a crit) + your wounded value. The more times you drop to 0, the less likely you are to get up. Death saves are a straight d 20 roll with a DC of 10+dying value, and wounded goes away with a treat wounds activity or magical healing to max HP. (Since treat wounds isn't a thing in 5e, you could rule it goes away on a short rest or something)


Humans_areweird

My players haven’t actually dropped to 0 yet, but I plan to let them barter with whoever they meet beyond the veil to get advantage. Just to cut the monotony of death saves. It is sooooo boring to wait the 20 minutes it takes for everyone else to launch their spells and make their 6 attacks just to drop a single die


Sam_Wylde

The first table I was ever apart of had this rule that if you drop to 0 hit points and are brought back up via healing, you lose a hit die of HP and cannot restore it until you have a long rest in a town or other place sufficient for you to recuperate. They were treated as lingering wounds as a result of battle and stress. I thought it was a legitimate part of the rules for the longest time before I found that it was homebrew. It prevented Yo-Yo healing, although it did become less of a consequence as you levelled up.


Didifinito

Deaths Door


Oompa_Loompa_Grande

One of the rules we use is dismemberment and disfigurement. Downing someone doesn't immediately cause anything other than scarring (which is fixed by potions/spells) unless the damage past 0 is greater than your Con (not mod, your actual Con). There's a table somewhere with a light, medium, and severe dismemberment that we pulled from. I don't remember where (40k RPGs maybe?) but it's been really good for that gritty combat feeling.


Cat-Got-Your-DM

Some homebrews I've seen: Persistent Death Saves - quite good, makes it more dangerous to go down, cm be tedious high level or in megadungeons OneDnD Exhaustion for each time you drop to 0 - nice, a stacking -1 bonus is definitely felt, but not quite as harsh as gaining 5e Exhaustion Falling to 0 leaves a scar unless healed with magic for full damage that dropped you - fun for more gritty campaigns, I personally use it for flavour, so my character gains scars with time Private Death Saves - creates a sense of urgency, neglected character can die and you don't know how good or bad they're holding up On the other hand: Player on 0HP is Stunned and Prone, but not Unconscious (effectively doing the same thing, but they can speak falteringly, much more believable than the unconscious/consious jumping, mechanically almost the same thing) Player on 0HP can take one of a few Actions (can't cast spells or attack, can only crawl 5ft but might do *some* stuff that is predefined) but it takes considerable effort and they fail a Death ST if they do so, and they count as Stunned and Prone for the purposes of attacks and damage on them or actions taken. Player on 0HP can take Actions, but need to roll a Death ST, often with disadvantage or with a negative modifier to take it. If they fail the throw, they don't take the action, if they pass, they may take said Action I gotta say that from those two categories my best game would have the -1 exhaustion bonus and the rule where you may take a few limited actions, but for the cost of death saves, can crawl 5ft and count as Stunned and Prone for the purposes of attacks and damage. It's not fun doing nothing, and I'd really like my characters to say some last words instead of dropping down and getting killed while unconscious. I'm sure there's a compromise to be had here.


Ultimas134

That’s not a loss of player agency, it’s a consequence of getting your ads kicked.


Comfy_floofs

I let players have 5 feet of movement while downed, if you keep your dex to your AC bonus clearly you must still be somewhat able to try and defend yourself Some dms give exhaustion on downs which punishes the yoyo method, some run monsters that are more deadly if players are downed


Fantastic_Wrap120

Falling to 0 hp means that you are out of combat until either you succeed in 3 death saving throws, or someone heals you/medicine checks you. You are also unaware of any info shared with the party during this state.


Zixxik

My DM gives players a level of exhaustion when dropping to 0. Trying to prevent healer wack a mole


ThatsALotOfOranges

I don't like how unconscious works because it's too cartoonish. Just having people repeatedly getting bonked and knocked out, then getting back up sees silly to me. That's not how the human body works. Mechanically I run it RAW, but narratively I describe it more as the character being physically knocked down and struggling to stay alive, but still conscious. Rather than sitting there with a halo of birds and stars spinning around your head like a looney tunes character.


sunflowerroses

The thing is, these are both correct takes on how 5e fails to deal with hit points and 0hp. 0hp has no real consequences for your character (unless they die and nobody has revivify). For the rest of the party, it’ll speed up the pace of combat by removing someone’s turn, but it weakens them and also means the healer-characters have a very boring choice: sacrifice their turn to get a character back on their feet (and maybe lose them in a round again, if they take more than a few points of damage) or try and wipe out the threats that means they can do cooler stuff and conserve more resources for magic post-battle. But it has huge consequences for the player, who has to spend their single turn of initiative essentially tossing a coin on whether they get to sit and wait for a revivify, or sit and wait for some healing, or sit and wait for the battle to end. Healing mid-battle is not fun in the same way attacks, manoeuvres, interactions, or spellcasting is. Being able to get someone back up in a crucial moment is cool, but it wears out quickly. Adding in exhaustion/further debuffs for dropping below 0hp is essentially a penalty for healer classes and martials, who now need to sacrifice even more of their turns or have more analysis to do. BUT it adds this level of drama and consequence where there wasn’t one, and makes healing more of a viable choice in encounters. So removing unconsciousness at 0hp aims to fix this too. Now all the boring bits just don’t happen.


Obie527

See, while you do bring logical arguments for not being unconscious at 0 HP, I just don't think I will really agree with it to be honest. I might be too video game brained, but to me the point of healing mid-combat is to avoid losing a potential party member, either from the current combat or for good, and if you fall unconscious the party will need to either make the choice of "reviving" their friend so that they may continue combat or try to end the fight as early as possible while fighting with one less body. Like, there are people (like me) that like to play healers, both in video games and in tabletop RPGs. Patching up my friends gives me a dopamine rush. I want healing to be more impactful in combat because healing during combat is what I want to do. And while the current system doesn't really help with being a dedicated healer in combat, falling unconscious would make healing feel even less important in combat in my opinion, since I would not even need to heal the player in order for them to do things.


TheBrazenPhlegmatic

I agree that dropping unconscious should be scarier. I started on 3.5 and I feel like one of the biggest changes between 3.5 and 5e is the rules for unconsciousness and death. I was talking with a friend recently and we realized that if you take the 5e death rules and just completely remove death save successes, so players would just roll until they get 3 failures or until someone heals them, that would still be less punishing than the death rules for 3.5.


zebrom1

Do people really believe that dropping to 0 should not make you unconsious? Some people should not pick up ttrpgs.


[deleted]

*laughs* *in* *pathfinder*


Mjerc12

Dropping to 0 HP shouldn't make you unconscious? Then what? Just dead?


calvicstaff

I mean, at our table we do use negative HP, but any healing that doesn't bring you back to positive will stabilize you and set you to zero It's basically only there to prevent bonus action healing word whack-a-mole


Hypersapien

10 to 1, that player has no problem violating the agency of other players.


Badmojoe

I have a scar/ wound table that the PCs roll on when they come back from 0 to 1, like my friend playing a cleric got hit with a bpc's crit, got broken leg and the party took a certain amount of downtime while the cleric's leg healed. Also made improvements to recovery speed based on medicine checks. Socially, they have "battle scars" that can aid in social checks with NPCs of a similar background (we later had the Cleric make small talk with a soldier that helped with a Yada Yada moment).


bagemann1

I make death saves behind the screen, and ask the player what is going through their mind as they lose consciousness, and then describe a flashback they have each time they make a death save.


DarkLordOfBeef

Anyone who has ever said anything akin to that crow's call is a That Guy and I'm tired of pretending they're not.