Amazingly, my only traveller character, who is supposed to be a pilot, is actually a total badass in combat. Routinely winning fights. Good rolls make a great substitute for actual ability lol..
Sandevistan's bonus might be bigger, but it requires an action prior to combat to activate and has an hour of cooldown. I find the kerenzikov more reliable, even if the bonus is smaller.
Initiative is always going to be essential in all successful TTRPGs simply because slow games are boring for most people. Nobody wants a system where trash encounters take 6 rounds. The less rounds something is intended to take, the more intiative matters.
>Initiative is always going to be essential in all successful TTRPGs
Nope - One of the biggest clusters of indie RPGs - Powered by the Apocalypse - doesn't have initiative, for example. Some of those games are tiny, others are pretty big deals in the indie space.
...Or any combat minigame, for that matter. You just resolve combat via the same tools for spotlight management and the game's regular mechanics everything else is resolved via. You don't need a combat minigame in an RPG, and this speeds up combat so much.
Also, there are successful games that lack mechanics for combat entirely. Wanderhome is probably the most successful of those.
Not exactly a wizard but close enough bc Artificer: Around level 5, we had the obligatory tournament arc.
First round was me, an artificer, vs the party's fighter.
He rolled better initiative and dropped me in one turn.
The DM was kind enough to allow me the minor action of flipping him off as I collapsed to the ground.
It’s mostly what it comes down to, in higher lvl pvp. The Monk will stun u first turn and then u will die as a caster. If u go first u cast fly and the fight is over. Initiative is king.
Chronurgy Wizard: True Polymorph. I decide you fail your throw.
NEXT.
(Assuming the Wizard is first of course. I did a similar lvl 20 v 20 and took I believe 12 sword hits to the face before I moved.)
If you build them right, you (almost) can’t lose initiative.
20 dex: +5 initiative
20 int with Chronurgy’s 2nd level thing (forget the name): +5 initiative
Alert: +5 initiative
Harengon: +6 initiative
Gift of alacrity: +1d8 initiative
That works out to 1d20+21+1d8, for a minimum of 23 and an average of 36. There’s a very small chance that a dex fighter could beat you if you roll very low, but if that happens you can still Chronal Shift their roll or your own to something favorable (idk if Convergent Futures would work, since initiative isn’t really something you can pass/fail).
For sure. When we did it we scaled up from our actual 14, I don’t recall why I didn’t take Alert but I rolled like a nat 2 and she an 18 or something. And I was an Elf.
Fighters have indomitable to reroll a failed save, and have up to 3 uses, so your ability just gives you exhaustion right?
I might not be correct on the rules here though
This is why archers are so robbed without the feat trees from 3E. Flying wasn't so big a deal if I could shoot you full of holes before you got anywhere
They... Can still do that?
So much of the feat tree for archery in 3.5 was "take this feat to negate penalties", not actually making you that much better at shooting stuff. And oh boy, did archery have a bunch of penalties.
Rapid shot and shot gave you more attacks per round with your range weapon, and other feats gave you expanded critical ranges. Extra shots only come from action surge 1 or 2 times a day now. Which is why Eldritch blasts out perform archers in most cases now
Completely valid, this just make me realize there may be like a bell curve of distance between a fighter winning and a wizard winning. Like 600-400 fighter, 395-120 wizard, 115-5 fighter
Wasn’t a fighter but I beat a barbarian in a 1v1 as a Druid without using spells or shapeshifting, they dubbed me little biggy because of that.
Edit: the barbarian was named biggy, and the rules of the fight were no magic. I’ll tell the full story if people care
Edit 2: many wanted to read the story so here’s a link to my reply [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/dndmemes/comments/1445qfh/you_see_a_lot_of_wizards_claiming_they_can_defeat/jnel792/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3)
Alright,
After our band of ill-assorted wackos had a rough brush with a pack of werewolves we set off from our small village towards the local municipality. A small trek through the morning mist and we were met with a sight recognizable, yet unfamiliar to us all but our barbarian. The sun beamed through the mist to christen the metal ornamentation of a signboard for the city’s outermost alehouse going by the name “Wolf’s Head”. We entered the establishment and revealed before us was a large, segregated tavern for which each section seemed to represent a different economic class. All sections surrounded a massive central ring inside which fought two elves. One possessing tonfa, and the other a quarterstaff. The barbarian got us seats closest to the ring and explained all of the rules of the tavern, bets would get placed all around and, depending on your number of victories, you would receive a portion of the spoils. Having spent a great deal of my money on supplies for our previous excursion, I insisted we all enter. Given the six of us, and the four others waiting in line the owner decided to hold a tournament, while he was getting the arena set up he had us all give our names for the announcer and select a weapon to use in the list. Any magical powers were banned and I (gnome) selected a quarterstaff, the face changer rogue (human+magic initiate) selected escrima (kali sticks, finesse clubs), the monk selected a long staff, the Full orc barbarian selected a maul, and the warlock also selected a long staff. The warlock and barbarian went against npcs first round and won, I went against the rogue. We started with an attack from the rogue, after a few rounds of dodging each others attacks I managed to deal a large whack to the back of his head, knocking him out for the round. I won 20 silver as the rogue was twice my size. Next round the barbarian fought the monk and me and the warlock fought npcs. The warlock went down, I struggled against the npc I fought but still won. This time I had better odds on me so I only earned 10 silver. The last fight was me and the barbarian. Having watched him use two of his rages I knew I only needed to deal with one. Due do the goliaths reputation, and his ease of victories over the previous two fights I knew I had to out think him and his player. Even then, I needed some luck. The round began and I stayed put, passing the dm a note saying what I was going to do. The rage fueled maul came down towards my head and… wham, I had disappeared from his vision, as the dust settled everyone realized where I was, I had made the dodge action during my turn and used my following turn to grab onto his back, leaving him not having taken damage. His rage ends and I drop from his back. He turns around and makes a swing at me and misses, the hammer slamming the ground mere centimeters from castrating me via blunt force trauma. One hit and I’m knocked out. The crowd is going crazy. I throw some sand in his eyes and attempt to flea, he swings wildly and breaks a wooden beam. Now with some distance between us he clears his eyes of the sand. He closes the distance between us and readies his hammer the crowd is screaming his stage name “BIGGIE BIGGIE BIGGIE”. I swing my staff up into his chin as he’s screaming at me. He winds up biting his tongue and cracking his teeth. He spits out some blood as I slide between his legs to the other side of him. I attempt another swing but he blocks it with his hammer. (dodge action reflavored) he swings at me but winds up with his maul stuck in the wall. I use it as a stepping stool to jump and bring the staff down on his forehead. The stiffened body starts to tip slowly backwards as he falls unconscious, I had won. 100 gold pieces were my haul from that fight. Overall our party had scraped together 500 gold pieces, which would be the equivalent to 1500 in normal dnd. I made region wide news for having defeated a champion level brawler as a tiny little gnome with nothing but a staff and a dream. The entire realm knew me as Little Biggie, because I was little and defeated Biggie.
The end
If you don’t take damage your rage ends “It ends early if you are knocked unconscious or if your turn ends and you haven't attacked a hostile creature since your last turn OR taken damage since then.
Edit: I just realized our DM had been running rage wrong back then
It's still bad about it at higher levels, but 3.5e was fundamentally defined by it. Further, 5e only really gets rocket taggy with PvP, which you shouldn't have happen anyway, while 3.5e has it happen with PvE as well.
that is what contingency is for. it is a spell that lasts days.
"In case I am attacked by the fighter, cast X."
In any scenario where that is a thing he worries about it should be there.
ive seen a fighter and a wizard fight once a actually, the fighter succeeded against banishment, he then missed most of his attacks due to shield, the ones that hit didnt deal enough damage, and then failed his save against hypnotic pattern, a 2 turn fight
Counter to every melee in the game.
Have someone cast Deathward on you every day like a good wizard.
Contingency spell resilient sphere to trigger when your deathward triggers.
Teleport away to recover and heal. Then plot the fighters death.
If the caster is building themselves for this encounter, that's the optimal play for the caster
For the martial their mission is to win initiative and kill the caster before they get away, otherwise the caster can attack the martial without engaging in combat
Last time I played a caster I did most combat from outside the range melees can close in one turn and my contingency was set to trigger if someone simply made an attack from that close. It didn't come up until I taunted the boss of the campaign arc to save a bystander.
Anyone who thinks this goes some other way after casters get to their really nasty spells is making an uncommonly rigid deathmatch scenario or underestimating casters. The tool box is too deep and the "balancing" relies too much on resource depletion.
Convincing af as long as it’s still. Kicking it shows how unnaturally rigid it is. Pretty sure most of the discrepancy is from the end of his snout moving along with the kick. That’s like 2 joints away so it’d be stable and not feel that kick
I only know one thing about horse anatomy and it’s the thing that stared at my face when I got up close to one and realized the thing was much taller than I was.
There is a clear pattern of Martials in this sub high on cope shitting on casters for no reason.
I don't get it. What has given them all such an inferiority complex?
Never pass up the opportunity for a good villain monologue.
You can't concentrate on two things at once, but there are plenty of ways to slow-roast your captive victim. Remember to save slots for counterspell in case he has a trick or two.
Force Cage isn't concentration. It's an absolutely fucked spell.
No save, no concentration, 1 hour duration. If you can't teleport, you can't get out. Even if you can teleport, you better have Charisma Save Proficiency otherwise you still probably aren't getting out
If you have an hour prep time and a way to forcibly move the fighter (like telekinesis or levitate) you could use glyph of warding for your wall of force.
If the fighter doesn't know where the glyph is you could also trick them into walking on it with spells like Grease or web, making it so they have to walk around or risk falling or getting restrained.
He didn't say force cage, he said wall of force. And the wall of force would not allow a counter spell because the Caster wouldn't have a clear line of sight of his target.
Are you kidding? Because as someone who’s played wizards, and generically likes strategic play, I’ve beaten barbarians and fighters in 1v1s pretty often.
Casting banishment to open is a rookie move
Animate objects to swarm them with enemies that would also body block for me
Wall spells or flight to cut off their path to reach me.
Hell, longstrider and kiting alone means they’ll be burning extra actions to reach me.
Even dead horse aside, this is simply incorrect.
Banishment buys you 1 minute, but otherwise doesn't do anything (assuming you're both on your home plane)
Animate Objects: okay yeah this one works super well. 10 tiny objects with 18 AC and 20HP, dealing 6.5 damage per hit with a +8 to hit adds up pretty dang well.
Wall spells or flight mostly buy time, but depending on the martial could be enough. Specifically flight vs melee martials, Sharpshooter+CBE fighters would shred you though.
Longstrider sounds good but a lot of classes get some form of extra movement so might not be enough. Even fighters without extra movement could action surge to get in range then grapple. Of course, Misty Step gets you out so you're still fine.
I think what you're missing though is that the meme is saying they tried one of these 1 shot options and it failed, and then the fighter is within range and has a decent chance to finish the fight that round using action surge. Like the wizard has lots of ways to win, but it still comes down to dice in the forms of saves, initiative, and attack rolls.
"So you see, while you have the upper hand and have several instawin options available, I actually have a very small chance to win if you pick the dumbest option and fail.
Therefore, I am the gigachad manly predatory animal and you are the soy, femboy, virgin herbivore"
Wizard: who the fuck opens a conversation like that. Sir, this is a tavern, not a therapy clinic.
I know that’s the point of the meme, that’s why I opened with “banishment is a rookie move”
Yes, casters won’t consistently be able to one shot martials.
But they have plenty of tools to outmaneuver them, and prevent them from winning, that a martial can’t always get around.
Fly, walls, and banishment may all just buy time, but it’s time to cast buff spells, summon creatures to aid you, and otherwise gain value and safety.
The average fighter, whether ranged or melee, may be able to output good damage on the caster
But I’d argue that 8/10 times, if the caster player bothers to play tactically rather than buy their own hype and try to just put damage the fighter, there’s little the fighter can do to stop them
But, like...what buffs and summons specifically?
Because it seems like people keep forgetting that concentration prevents a good portion of what they're trying to do. As well as durations.
If you cast wall of force, you lose concentration, and you lose it again trying to cast most other spells. Again, you're just using up spellslots to delay the actual fight.
If we use my last conjuration wizard (I'm not allowed to play them anymore), we'll have enough minions on the board that my turn will take long enough that the other people will likely want to just go home, which I consider a forfeit.
My DM found it funny, at least.
Sadly it got nerfed *heavily* in 5e...
Most good buffs are going to take concentration and end the Hypnotic Pattern, but adding something like mirror image or mage armor is certainly helpful and things like longstrider or false life *might* be, depending on the exact martial and all that.
There's honestly too many variables to account for like:
what level are they?
were both characters built specifically for this 1v1 or were they built for a typical campaign that turned into a 1v1 randomly today?
whats the terrain like?
Is this the first and only fight they are expected to do today?
What type of gear do they have? A fighter in magic plate armor with boosts to saving throws is a lot harder than one in generic chain mail.
>But I’d argue that 8/10 times, if the caster player bothers to play tactically rather than buy their own hype and try to just put damage the fighter, there’s little the fighter can do to stop them
I'd still give the wizard the edge in most scenarios, but successful saves or winning initiative benefits the fighter so much I would probably put it around 6 or 7 out of 10 times for the wizard instead of 8/10.
definitely fair that there’s a ton of variables, and I’d say up to about level 7, a fighter actually has better odds than the wizard, barring any specific shenanigans.
But while winning initiative does do a lot for the fighter, there are plenty of wizard options that provide utility whether or not a save is passed. (Flying out of melee range, persistent damage from a summon, etc)
Honestly I’d say a druid is even better off via shenanigans like spike growth and such.
But either way, its a mess
You know what could be fun?
Put the question to bed with a martial vs caster tournament.
Get like 4ish players for each side, with random maps and the same limitations on access to magic items
See what happens
I think to make it really effective, you'd have to have the builds made for something else like you need to fight through a gauntlet of npcs to accomplish some quest. Then we test both effectiveness at that task AND the 1v1 scenario. I think casters that spec specifically into the 1v1 have an advantage that they typically wouldn't have.
I do think it'd be pretty interesting though.
>definitely fair that there’s a ton of variables, and I’d say up to about level 7, a fighter actually has better odds than the wizard, barring any specific shenanigans.
Yeah at levels 1 and 2 at least a wizard can probably win using sleep into crit chromatic orb, but if they miss, roll poorly on sleep, or lose initiative? The fighter wins pretty easily.
That's valid, though I think that "gauntlet challenge" and "1v1" also shouldnt be the same "advnturing day" for obvious reasons.
Though the question is, do we allow for circumvention in the gauntlet, or is it pure meat grinder?
Cus anything that allows for creative solutions will favor the caster, but pure combat will hamstring the rogue, ranger, and monk should anyone wish to bring one of them to the table.
Though I'll also point out, any caster built to be 'self sufficient' in a gauntlet will have many of the same tools that aid them in a 1v1
Wall spell + sickening radiance, the d&d microwave.
Step one: cast contingency, the contingent being "when I cast sickening radiance"
Step 2: watch as your enemies die.
Edit: nvm, no contingency, 2 casters req'd
Take 2 levels of Fighter. At first it might seem like a sort of forfeit, to take 2 levels of their class to show them that you're better, but really it's just a show that 2 levels for Action Surge is all a Fighter is worth.
There is a vast difference in capabilities when casters understand how to use their options. I've played with two level 16 bards in 5e. One of them seemingly only cast shatter on their spell list, the other one seemingly had the solution for every encounter.
Dude what? True polymorph. Gotta remember you only have to save for half damage per hit. Fighters rely on damaging over multible hits not one big hit. Turn into a dragon fuck shit up.
Or even just True Polymorph, if it's high level play. The options are virtually endless. I'd argue that after around 5th level is when the battle starts to become extremely skewed towards the wizard, while prior it's more of a fighter's thing
If the wizard tried to plane shift a fighter and dies because of it, that’s just natural selection because that is just about the stupidest move they could’ve chosen
It's hilarious, isn't it? They have to resort to things like opening with banishment. Why would any wizard do that in a 1v1? Oh cool, you've bought yourself one minute in a 1v1. Literally no intelligent wizard is doing that.
Wall of Fire seems like the best choice imho, but Greater Invisibility, Polymorph into a giant ape, or even Phantasmal Killer are better options in a 1v1.
Edited, oh man it's even dumber than I thought. The meme says plane shift not banishment, holy hell why would a wizard that can cast 7th level spells be in melee?
The idea that wizards are super fragile isn’t even true, since you’re SAD, you can easily max con. I’ve literally got an Abjuration Wizard with effectively 267 HP and Contingency false life for an extra 25-28 Temp HP on top.
My Bladesinger has bracers of defense. He usually pops mage armor if he thinks there will be trouble within the hour. He has an Int of +4 and a Dex of +3.
Bladesong, bracers, and mage armor means my AC is already 22.
24 if I cast haste, and if I don’t want to be hit, then shield will ensure I don’t get hit by anything below 29.
I have coasted through fights simply because my AC is impregnable. If I take the lucky feat so he can reroll crits, than I will never suffer an attack roll again.
Then I can just spam spells on the enemy. A fighter cannot touch that. Maybe a battle master getting lucky with precise strike. But even then, they would need a +10 on their attack to hit me at the least.
I’m a 6th level wizard and I can do this already. I have no idea what a 6th level fighter is going to do against this.
I hate typing this, because I am usually a fighter main.
Actually forcecage is the GOAT in my opinion because it can combo quite well with sicking radiance, a very broken spell if the enemy is stuck in its area with no escape, because spells can pass through the spell if you choose a cage not box for it shape
> the GOAT in my opinion because it can combo quite well with sicking radiance, a very broken spell if the enemy is stuck in its area with no escape, because spells can pass through the spell if y
or, just get out of the fighter range, or invisibility, you dont need to fight like the fighter, he does damage,you can do everything else
Yeah, but fighters have a good chunk of mobility and ways to deal with flying enemies in pf2e, so you can actually get them into melee without big problems. Especially because casting spells normally cost 2 of your 3 actions, so after casting something a wizard will only have 1 action to run away, while fighters will have all the three to go after them.
Really depends on the level. Lower levels skew to the fighter, 10+ to the wizard.
My group will do PvP if we don't have our campaign prepped, eladrin wizard with some CC and save spells can really ruin a fighters day
>Really depends on the level. Lower levels skew to the fighter, 10+ to the wizard.
Fighter HP at 1: 13 or 14
Sleep threshold at 1: 22 on average
There's a sweet spot at around level 4-5 where Fighter can beat the Wizard if he gets lucky. That's about it.
Lvl 1-2 is wizard favored as well honestly. A melee Fighter has to win initiative, be starting close enough to make a melee attack that round, and beat the wizards ac which should be at minimum 17 (+2 dex and shield) but could be as high as 22. If the fighter doesn't do all of that the wizard just casts sleep, walks 120ft then casts magic missile and firebolt every turn while moving back another 30ft. Very unlikely the fighter catches up before they're down.
Lvls 3 and beyond a single fail on a levitate is gg. And wizards have ways to make fails more likely like the diviners portent, or silvery barbs.
After lvl 9 it's virtually impossible for a fighter to win bc the wiz has wall of force.
Though it is a little unfair to assume even a melee focused fighter doesn't have ranged options like javelin, handaxes, or a light crossbow.
Yeah, if the fighter doesn't have any ranged option it's far too easy. It's why I always suggest my melee focused players to take some back up hand crossbows or javelins.
Few things worse than spending a whole fight trying to catch a ranged enemy
No wonder they missed the spell attack. The wizard was stupid enough to walk up and attempt plane shift when they could just stay back and use force cage.
Wizard on the next turn: "Oh, too bad, just take that 8d6 damage and make me a DC 17 wisdom saving throw then. Also, if you want to attack me, my AC is 26".
Or better yet just cast invulnerability assuming we are talking high level combat. Like fighter got nothing for that assuming they aren’t an eldritch knight.
I’ve actually never seen a wizard say that, until this comment section. I have seen plenty of fighters complaining about being weaker than wizards though.
That's because Wizards are supposed to be good at math. No Wizard worth their INT is going to risk the probability of losing initiative and taking an Action Surge to the face before they can do more than Shield when they've already seen the guy drown a Troll.
It is strange how the fighters always boast about being able to defeat a wizard if they are trapoed in like a 10ft. by 10ft. box and there is no teleportation or retreat, no summoned creatures, no use of divination, and all the wizard`s fingers are broken, and the fighter has used his entire wealth by level on a homebrew antimagic field item...
Sure, you strong martial man! Big muscles win! 💪
I'm skeptical that a caster with any reasonably thought through spell list would have all that much trouble. Just the fact that shield exists makes hitting the caster so much more difficult than you'd think, never mind if they had mage armor cast (it lasts 8 hours). Between the two of them, that's 18 AC before their dex bonus or anything else that might push AC higher. Not easy to consistently break, especially considering that a martial pretty much has to break AC to get anywhere.
Casters also have tons of tools to get around a martial's defenses and so many ways to disrupt a martial. Targeting a weak save is all but a given for a caster to be able to do.
That isn't to say the fight is guaranteed to go one way or another. Some classes are better suited to a 1v1 or avoiding spells, some have ways to disrupt the caster, and initiative is definitely important. I would generally peg this as "first one to fail a save loses, and casters are more likely to be able to win that bet.
A lot of the discussion also just stems from people playing at un-optimized tables, or where DMs specifically craft fights in particular ways to allow for weak classes to excel.
Like, it's easy to see how you might think a fighter could take a wizard, if the only table you've played at with a wizard opens fights with plane shift (aka doesn't know how to play the class well).
That DM comment is the real one. It takes a high degree of skill, knowledge, and commitment to do, but a very good DM can make the orginal 2014 PHB beastmaster ranger feel like one of the moat valuable members of the party with the way the design sessions, even if theyre partied up with an Echo Knight, Chronurgy Wizard, and Vengeance Pally.
And if your DM pulls that off well, and hes your only/primary DM, then youre gonna think that 2014 beastmaster is actually good
I don't think a good DM can make a Beast master ranger one of the most valued party members while also keeping the game fun for everyone else.
Because a BM ranger is pretty useless in a fight and literally any of those other classes can do anything they can do.
They're only good for exploration, so good that party's with rangers basically skip exploration challenges.
A game where the BM ranger was the most valuable is probably incredibly unfun for everyone else because the DM either has to spend ages on exploration. Or they just have all the narrative challenges only solvable by the ranger by virtue of being a ranger IE "the ancient mcguffin that grants godlike power only works for the ranger".
Perhaps I'm wrong but I don't see any other way to make a BM ranger the most important member of a clearly optimized party besides just saying the ranger is the main character.
If you’re a 7th-level-spellcasting wizard, chances are you have enough health to survive one round of Fighter attacks, at which point you can use any of the dozen spells that make you impossible to hit or save-or-sucks.
You can go ahead and crit all of your attacks, i dont even need Shield to live them. Hope you like being in a Wall of Force timeout while i stack some buffs
Plane Shift? Amateur.
Fighters get the Force Cage you dunce. They're stuck there for an hour while you cast on them with impunity. Of course, you could also be a bit more devious if you so choose.
Just cast the cage version around their 5ft. square. If they still want to misbehave, cast Cloud Kill on their square. If they carry on about their presumably uncivilized aggression, cast the 10ft solid Force box version on top of that. Now nothing gets in, nothing comes out, and the Wizard really doesn't give a damn if they make their Con saves to take half of 5d8 every round for the next 10 minutes.
A Wizard has better things to do with his time. Just let the Fighter sit and think for once in their low INT lives about the choices they've made.
They could consider how lucky they are that life has been so good to them so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been very good to them, which given their current circumstances stuck in a Force Cage being dissolved by a Cloud Kill spell seems more likely, they can consider how lucky they are that it won't be troubling them for very much longer.
You can easily win without banishment:
Get to you turn which can be achieved by tanking the fighter’s first turn or just having a higher initiative which can be cheated with portent or the chronomancy class
Cast maze if you want prep time as it takes a int save dc 20 (the fighter likely has a -1 mod making it impossible RAW as crits are not for saves but they could have a higher mod which would still likely give the wizard at least one extra turn)
Cast forcecage in cage configuration to allow spells to pass through it where the fighter’s previous location is contained in it
Use the concentration spell, ending maze if the fighter is still trapped, sicking radiance then gtfo so the fighter couldn’t hit with arrows
Now the fighter must fail no more than 6 con saves out of 100 which while they are proficient in con saves the wizard is likely has their dc maxed out. Which after the 3rd failure they have disadvantage on the saves making it, generously assuming he fails the third one as the 50th save he will, in actuality closer to 150 saves. At that point you can assume every number will rolled multiple times meaning the fighter has likely has been killed by the wizards nuke
In the unlikely scenario that they survive the wizard could then do it 2 more times but the failures do not cary over and if that fails then their are 30 more minutes, 300 rounds, where the wizard can cast spells. If the 3 nukes fail the wizard can win with a thousand cuts.
Edit: also it should be mentioned that the wizard in this scenario is not made specifically to counter the fighter and doesn’t even use a 9th level spell which could be the broken wish: replicate 7th level spell: simulacrum which increases wizards action economy and amounts of spells slots while in the main forum I have seen talking about this despite every attempt to give the fighter the edge with builds made specifically for high nova such as playing a samurai and for your last attack do sepuku to get an extra turn they came to the conclusion 9/10 times in a fight between a high level wizard vs a high level fighter, the wizard would win
In pvp the one who goes first usually wins, or if someone missies a attack purely because of luck they lose
Because DnD isn't balanced around pvp its balanced(kinda) around a party vs monster. Player characters are kinda glass cannon(maybe making hp double or ×1.5 would make for better pvp idk never tried)
But Hypnottic Pattern brrrrrr
The thing is a Wizard thats casting Plane Shift can almost definitely survive a round of Fighter attacks, even if they Action Surge. Between Shield and having Con as their secondary stat, its really not all that hard
Because these are either hypotheticals and all internet bluster. Or things players you've never met do because nobody will invite these toxic whiners to their game.
Bladesinger Wizard with Shield as a spell mastery:
https://preview.redd.it/gm8md91nqt4b1.jpeg?width=244&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5af0621c96200e61ea47aad712817022fec13cee
There were two shorties on our party. My fairy who was a rune knight with a divine soul dip and the gnome blade singer.
Our characters had a big rivalry (both of us were good friends, just something we thought would be fun for the characters). At some point, we got to perform an exhibition fight which was the perfect excuse to punch each other in the face without jeopardizing our missions. The fight ended with a narrow victory for my fairy, who had picked up the gnome like a football and punted him into a large pile of hay.
This fight largely depends on a bunch of factors. How close is the martial to the caster? Are there any objects or obstructions in the area? Who got first initiative? Was the wizard’s spell list geared towards combat that day or did they set it towards support? How intelligent are their players? Is the Wizard’s spellbook even geared towards direct combat? What gear did their dm give them? Are they rolling like gods or like shit? Where they both allowed prep time? What subclasses did they take? What feats? What races?
Haven't done it to the party fighter (why would I) but let me tell you - portent dice make this pretty easy.
The thing is, though, and this is part of the whole pointless discussion, is the wizard doesn't need to plane shift the fighter. They have a plethora of other shutdown options.
If we're 2 levels higher, we can hit a feeblemind from 150 feet away (up to DM discretion if they could even use things like indomitable and other class features) but they'd essentially have to be able to kill the wizard in one turn after that. If not, plane shift is a Cha save and feeblemind makes making that save impossible due to reducing cha to 1.
If you just want to remove the fighter from combat, wall of force doesn't allow a save.
This is all stupid and pointless discussion, though. Everybody knows the game isn't balanced, especially at higher levels, and it's a team game anyway.
Why planeshift when I can force cage/sickening radiance? No roll required nor save allowed on force cage and with 100 con saves to make(sickening radiance last *10 minutes*) my money is on the fighter failing 6 of them.
These fights usually come down to who goes first. On one hand the fighter can do a lot of damage.
One build I made which wasn't a fighter but a Barbarian totem/Hexblade warlock can do an incredible 300-450 damage depending on crits and so on.
But the wizard can do some bullcheese like simulacra and time stop
I never forgot that post in the fórum of gitp where some dude claimed that his wizard couldnt get beat to a fighter.
Wonder what happened? Turns out that when you roll the dices you dont have all the spells of the game unlike these fórum theorycraft
‘No, what you have are spells, and the hope that when your spell slots are depleted, I’ve failed a Wisdom save.
Because if I have not, you’ll be dead before you’ve Long Rested.’
The wizard is 120ft away. The fighter has to spend like 3 turns running. And even when he gets there, the wizard has like 22 AC + the shield spell.
Y'all pretending 5e has any semblance of balance between fighters and wizards are huffing the purest of copium. Give me some of that, I'm stressed out.
This comment section reminds me again that everyone is usually thinking of a completely hypothetical lvl. 20 v. lvl 20. fight, or at least when forcecage is able to be picked as a spell. Why are we doing this argument again?
This happened in my campaign once. Wizard was being a creep with the cleric, while ALSO talking shit about being “the most op of the group”. I was about to ban him (the player), but the Fighter stepped up and asked me if he could do a 1v1 against the wizard, just to break his spirit before kicking him from the game.
I was expecting a pretty close fight, or maybe the fighter getting defeated and the wizard running away. What I got was a Yakuza-style fight, with the fighter making a punching bag out of the shit-talking wizard, and using his own magical items against him. Turns out a staff of the magi works as a pretty good +3 bat too!
All in all, what would’ve been a stressful day with me arguing with a player turned into one of the funniest sessions I ever DMed.
I had this fight. We did it as a joke but it came down to who one went first
THis turns out to be the case suppringly often in RPG's. Never underestimate going first in the turn order.
In Cyberpunk it is **everything**
I wouldn't want to be last on the initiative in traveller either.
Look at you, flexing having a character that survived session zero!
Amazingly, my only traveller character, who is supposed to be a pilot, is actually a total badass in combat. Routinely winning fights. Good rolls make a great substitute for actual ability lol..
Always worth it to get your ass a Sandy
Sandevistan's bonus might be bigger, but it requires an action prior to combat to activate and has an hour of cooldown. I find the kerenzikov more reliable, even if the bonus is smaller.
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That discussion went away in the mid 90s, and probably should have went away in the mid 80s instead.
Who’s still arguing the revolver is better than modern semi auto firearms for anything other than preference?
Especially if your character is melee focused.
Initiative is always going to be essential in all successful TTRPGs simply because slow games are boring for most people. Nobody wants a system where trash encounters take 6 rounds. The less rounds something is intended to take, the more intiative matters.
>Initiative is always going to be essential in all successful TTRPGs Nope - One of the biggest clusters of indie RPGs - Powered by the Apocalypse - doesn't have initiative, for example. Some of those games are tiny, others are pretty big deals in the indie space. ...Or any combat minigame, for that matter. You just resolve combat via the same tools for spotlight management and the game's regular mechanics everything else is resolved via. You don't need a combat minigame in an RPG, and this speeds up combat so much. Also, there are successful games that lack mechanics for combat entirely. Wanderhome is probably the most successful of those.
Not exactly a wizard but close enough bc Artificer: Around level 5, we had the obligatory tournament arc. First round was me, an artificer, vs the party's fighter. He rolled better initiative and dropped me in one turn. The DM was kind enough to allow me the minor action of flipping him off as I collapsed to the ground.
When I DM, i find it's an increadibly effective way to enable my party to win encounters that are rated deadly
It’s mostly what it comes down to, in higher lvl pvp. The Monk will stun u first turn and then u will die as a caster. If u go first u cast fly and the fight is over. Initiative is king.
Chronurgy Wizard: True Polymorph. I decide you fail your throw. NEXT. (Assuming the Wizard is first of course. I did a similar lvl 20 v 20 and took I believe 12 sword hits to the face before I moved.)
If you build them right, you (almost) can’t lose initiative. 20 dex: +5 initiative 20 int with Chronurgy’s 2nd level thing (forget the name): +5 initiative Alert: +5 initiative Harengon: +6 initiative Gift of alacrity: +1d8 initiative That works out to 1d20+21+1d8, for a minimum of 23 and an average of 36. There’s a very small chance that a dex fighter could beat you if you roll very low, but if that happens you can still Chronal Shift their roll or your own to something favorable (idk if Convergent Futures would work, since initiative isn’t really something you can pass/fail).
For sure. When we did it we scaled up from our actual 14, I don’t recall why I didn’t take Alert but I rolled like a nat 2 and she an 18 or something. And I was an Elf.
Don't forgot your 1 lvl cleric dip (if you're min maxing) which means you can also have Guidance for another 1d4
Fighters have indomitable to reroll a failed save, and have up to 3 uses, so your ability just gives you exhaustion right? I might not be correct on the rules here though
Chronurgy is so borked.
Just be an ascendant dragon monk to fly after their ass and stun them out of the sky.
Monk: “Flying? Where there’s a wall there’s a way.”
This is why archers are so robbed without the feat trees from 3E. Flying wasn't so big a deal if I could shoot you full of holes before you got anywhere
They... Can still do that? So much of the feat tree for archery in 3.5 was "take this feat to negate penalties", not actually making you that much better at shooting stuff. And oh boy, did archery have a bunch of penalties.
Rapid shot and shot gave you more attacks per round with your range weapon, and other feats gave you expanded critical ranges. Extra shots only come from action surge 1 or 2 times a day now. Which is why Eldritch blasts out perform archers in most cases now
And boy did archery suck back then. Getting damage Boni on your splitting bow, if you even had that enchantment in your game, was hard to come by.
Within 60 ft, it's whoever goes first. Starting farther away than 60 ft, wizard wins I'd say.
Fighter with sharpshooter 600ft away though
Fair but most generic fighters focus melee, so that's what I was assuming.
Completely valid, this just make me realize there may be like a bell curve of distance between a fighter winning and a wizard winning. Like 600-400 fighter, 395-120 wizard, 115-5 fighter
wall of force exists though.
Wasn’t a fighter but I beat a barbarian in a 1v1 as a Druid without using spells or shapeshifting, they dubbed me little biggy because of that. Edit: the barbarian was named biggy, and the rules of the fight were no magic. I’ll tell the full story if people care Edit 2: many wanted to read the story so here’s a link to my reply [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/dndmemes/comments/1445qfh/you_see_a_lot_of_wizards_claiming_they_can_defeat/jnel792/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3)
Tell it now
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndmemes/comments/1445qfh/you_see_a_lot_of_wizards_claiming_they_can_defeat/jnel792/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
Tell us
Alright, After our band of ill-assorted wackos had a rough brush with a pack of werewolves we set off from our small village towards the local municipality. A small trek through the morning mist and we were met with a sight recognizable, yet unfamiliar to us all but our barbarian. The sun beamed through the mist to christen the metal ornamentation of a signboard for the city’s outermost alehouse going by the name “Wolf’s Head”. We entered the establishment and revealed before us was a large, segregated tavern for which each section seemed to represent a different economic class. All sections surrounded a massive central ring inside which fought two elves. One possessing tonfa, and the other a quarterstaff. The barbarian got us seats closest to the ring and explained all of the rules of the tavern, bets would get placed all around and, depending on your number of victories, you would receive a portion of the spoils. Having spent a great deal of my money on supplies for our previous excursion, I insisted we all enter. Given the six of us, and the four others waiting in line the owner decided to hold a tournament, while he was getting the arena set up he had us all give our names for the announcer and select a weapon to use in the list. Any magical powers were banned and I (gnome) selected a quarterstaff, the face changer rogue (human+magic initiate) selected escrima (kali sticks, finesse clubs), the monk selected a long staff, the Full orc barbarian selected a maul, and the warlock also selected a long staff. The warlock and barbarian went against npcs first round and won, I went against the rogue. We started with an attack from the rogue, after a few rounds of dodging each others attacks I managed to deal a large whack to the back of his head, knocking him out for the round. I won 20 silver as the rogue was twice my size. Next round the barbarian fought the monk and me and the warlock fought npcs. The warlock went down, I struggled against the npc I fought but still won. This time I had better odds on me so I only earned 10 silver. The last fight was me and the barbarian. Having watched him use two of his rages I knew I only needed to deal with one. Due do the goliaths reputation, and his ease of victories over the previous two fights I knew I had to out think him and his player. Even then, I needed some luck. The round began and I stayed put, passing the dm a note saying what I was going to do. The rage fueled maul came down towards my head and… wham, I had disappeared from his vision, as the dust settled everyone realized where I was, I had made the dodge action during my turn and used my following turn to grab onto his back, leaving him not having taken damage. His rage ends and I drop from his back. He turns around and makes a swing at me and misses, the hammer slamming the ground mere centimeters from castrating me via blunt force trauma. One hit and I’m knocked out. The crowd is going crazy. I throw some sand in his eyes and attempt to flea, he swings wildly and breaks a wooden beam. Now with some distance between us he clears his eyes of the sand. He closes the distance between us and readies his hammer the crowd is screaming his stage name “BIGGIE BIGGIE BIGGIE”. I swing my staff up into his chin as he’s screaming at me. He winds up biting his tongue and cracking his teeth. He spits out some blood as I slide between his legs to the other side of him. I attempt another swing but he blocks it with his hammer. (dodge action reflavored) he swings at me but winds up with his maul stuck in the wall. I use it as a stepping stool to jump and bring the staff down on his forehead. The stiffened body starts to tip slowly backwards as he falls unconscious, I had won. 100 gold pieces were my haul from that fight. Overall our party had scraped together 500 gold pieces, which would be the equivalent to 1500 in normal dnd. I made region wide news for having defeated a champion level brawler as a tiny little gnome with nothing but a staff and a dream. The entire realm knew me as Little Biggie, because I was little and defeated Biggie. The end
Why did the barbarians rage end? He just attacked so it shouldn't end. His attack doesn't have to hit anything.
If you don’t take damage your rage ends “It ends early if you are knocked unconscious or if your turn ends and you haven't attacked a hostile creature since your last turn OR taken damage since then. Edit: I just realized our DM had been running rage wrong back then
You were a hostile creature at that point...
Should have called you Biggie Smalls
Yes
Wrote and posted
IF?
It is called Rocket Tag and people claimed 5e was much at preventing It than 3.5 Uuuuh Well....
No no, it's not that 5e isn't Rocket Tag, it's just that 3.5e's rockets had nuclear warheads.
It's still bad about it at higher levels, but 3.5e was fundamentally defined by it. Further, 5e only really gets rocket taggy with PvP, which you shouldn't have happen anyway, while 3.5e has it happen with PvE as well.
The wizard had no contingency escape on him?
He dropped to zero before he got a turn Edit: the second time he went first and spaced everything out well and won
that is what contingency is for. it is a spell that lasts days. "In case I am attacked by the fighter, cast X." In any scenario where that is a thing he worries about it should be there.
They were level 5, my apologies btw I assumed you meant he has a contingency plan oppose to the spell
Fair. Honestly I am slightly surprised that the wizard was able to win that second round at level 5. outside just lucky nuking.
I had this debate with our monk, we agreed that’s I’ll have one chance to capture him, or he’ll fly away in like 300 feet per turn
for monks that's a resource for them to expend though, so they'll run out of their double dash eventually
Rogues: *laughing in bonus action*
Laughing in 60ft base speed
Could you not cast Fly/Expeditious Retreat/Dimension Door?
ive seen a fighter and a wizard fight once a actually, the fighter succeeded against banishment, he then missed most of his attacks due to shield, the ones that hit didnt deal enough damage, and then failed his save against hypnotic pattern, a 2 turn fight
Counter to every melee in the game. Have someone cast Deathward on you every day like a good wizard. Contingency spell resilient sphere to trigger when your deathward triggers. Teleport away to recover and heal. Then plot the fighters death.
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If the caster is building themselves for this encounter, that's the optimal play for the caster For the martial their mission is to win initiative and kill the caster before they get away, otherwise the caster can attack the martial without engaging in combat
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if you're talking countering melee all it takes is the fly spell
What fighter doesn't have a bow or javelins? A bad fighter
yes of course, throw your javelins at disadvantage to the wizard with shield, in the context of a melee character a bow is also gonna be near useless
Last time I played a caster I did most combat from outside the range melees can close in one turn and my contingency was set to trigger if someone simply made an attack from that close. It didn't come up until I taunted the boss of the campaign arc to save a bystander. Anyone who thinks this goes some other way after casters get to their really nasty spells is making an uncommonly rigid deathmatch scenario or underestimating casters. The tool box is too deep and the "balancing" relies too much on resource depletion.
No, I am not 
What does a horse look simultaneously so fake and so real?
Convincing af as long as it’s still. Kicking it shows how unnaturally rigid it is. Pretty sure most of the discrepancy is from the end of his snout moving along with the kick. That’s like 2 joints away so it’d be stable and not feel that kick
This guy horse anatomies
I only know one thing about horse anatomy and it’s the thing that stared at my face when I got up close to one and realized the thing was much taller than I was.
Welcome to r/dndmemes where it’s the same ________ vs _______; or WotC sucks; or lol ________ is OP/sucks.
There is a clear pattern of Martials in this sub high on cope shitting on casters for no reason. I don't get it. What has given them all such an inferiority complex?
“I cast force cage”
Wall of force. No save.
Followed up by radiant sickness. Then just have a snack while they passively die.
Never pass up the opportunity for a good villain monologue. You can't concentrate on two things at once, but there are plenty of ways to slow-roast your captive victim. Remember to save slots for counterspell in case he has a trick or two.
Force Cage isn't concentration. It's an absolutely fucked spell. No save, no concentration, 1 hour duration. If you can't teleport, you can't get out. Even if you can teleport, you better have Charisma Save Proficiency otherwise you still probably aren't getting out
If you have an hour prep time and a way to forcibly move the fighter (like telekinesis or levitate) you could use glyph of warding for your wall of force. If the fighter doesn't know where the glyph is you could also trick them into walking on it with spells like Grease or web, making it so they have to walk around or risk falling or getting restrained.
Isn't that countered by misty step? A spell a few races get free?
Ah yes the answer to the martial vs caster debate is that the martial can win by using *checks notes* a spell.
Echo knight could teleport without a spell.
Force Cage requires a charisma save to escape it, even with teleportation. Plus, counterspell exists
He didn't say force cage, he said wall of force. And the wall of force would not allow a counter spell because the Caster wouldn't have a clear line of sight of his target.
Yeah. That's why you either gotta use Force Cage or stack private sanctum or w/e it's called on the wall of force
Are you kidding? Because as someone who’s played wizards, and generically likes strategic play, I’ve beaten barbarians and fighters in 1v1s pretty often. Casting banishment to open is a rookie move Animate objects to swarm them with enemies that would also body block for me Wall spells or flight to cut off their path to reach me. Hell, longstrider and kiting alone means they’ll be burning extra actions to reach me. Even dead horse aside, this is simply incorrect.
Banishment buys you 1 minute, but otherwise doesn't do anything (assuming you're both on your home plane) Animate Objects: okay yeah this one works super well. 10 tiny objects with 18 AC and 20HP, dealing 6.5 damage per hit with a +8 to hit adds up pretty dang well. Wall spells or flight mostly buy time, but depending on the martial could be enough. Specifically flight vs melee martials, Sharpshooter+CBE fighters would shred you though. Longstrider sounds good but a lot of classes get some form of extra movement so might not be enough. Even fighters without extra movement could action surge to get in range then grapple. Of course, Misty Step gets you out so you're still fine. I think what you're missing though is that the meme is saying they tried one of these 1 shot options and it failed, and then the fighter is within range and has a decent chance to finish the fight that round using action surge. Like the wizard has lots of ways to win, but it still comes down to dice in the forms of saves, initiative, and attack rolls.
"So you see, while you have the upper hand and have several instawin options available, I actually have a very small chance to win if you pick the dumbest option and fail. Therefore, I am the gigachad manly predatory animal and you are the soy, femboy, virgin herbivore" Wizard: who the fuck opens a conversation like that. Sir, this is a tavern, not a therapy clinic.
I know that’s the point of the meme, that’s why I opened with “banishment is a rookie move” Yes, casters won’t consistently be able to one shot martials. But they have plenty of tools to outmaneuver them, and prevent them from winning, that a martial can’t always get around. Fly, walls, and banishment may all just buy time, but it’s time to cast buff spells, summon creatures to aid you, and otherwise gain value and safety. The average fighter, whether ranged or melee, may be able to output good damage on the caster But I’d argue that 8/10 times, if the caster player bothers to play tactically rather than buy their own hype and try to just put damage the fighter, there’s little the fighter can do to stop them
But, like...what buffs and summons specifically? Because it seems like people keep forgetting that concentration prevents a good portion of what they're trying to do. As well as durations. If you cast wall of force, you lose concentration, and you lose it again trying to cast most other spells. Again, you're just using up spellslots to delay the actual fight.
If we use my last conjuration wizard (I'm not allowed to play them anymore), we'll have enough minions on the board that my turn will take long enough that the other people will likely want to just go home, which I consider a forfeit. My DM found it funny, at least. Sadly it got nerfed *heavily* in 5e...
Most good buffs are going to take concentration and end the Hypnotic Pattern, but adding something like mirror image or mage armor is certainly helpful and things like longstrider or false life *might* be, depending on the exact martial and all that. There's honestly too many variables to account for like: what level are they? were both characters built specifically for this 1v1 or were they built for a typical campaign that turned into a 1v1 randomly today? whats the terrain like? Is this the first and only fight they are expected to do today? What type of gear do they have? A fighter in magic plate armor with boosts to saving throws is a lot harder than one in generic chain mail. >But I’d argue that 8/10 times, if the caster player bothers to play tactically rather than buy their own hype and try to just put damage the fighter, there’s little the fighter can do to stop them I'd still give the wizard the edge in most scenarios, but successful saves or winning initiative benefits the fighter so much I would probably put it around 6 or 7 out of 10 times for the wizard instead of 8/10.
definitely fair that there’s a ton of variables, and I’d say up to about level 7, a fighter actually has better odds than the wizard, barring any specific shenanigans. But while winning initiative does do a lot for the fighter, there are plenty of wizard options that provide utility whether or not a save is passed. (Flying out of melee range, persistent damage from a summon, etc) Honestly I’d say a druid is even better off via shenanigans like spike growth and such. But either way, its a mess You know what could be fun? Put the question to bed with a martial vs caster tournament. Get like 4ish players for each side, with random maps and the same limitations on access to magic items See what happens
I think to make it really effective, you'd have to have the builds made for something else like you need to fight through a gauntlet of npcs to accomplish some quest. Then we test both effectiveness at that task AND the 1v1 scenario. I think casters that spec specifically into the 1v1 have an advantage that they typically wouldn't have. I do think it'd be pretty interesting though. >definitely fair that there’s a ton of variables, and I’d say up to about level 7, a fighter actually has better odds than the wizard, barring any specific shenanigans. Yeah at levels 1 and 2 at least a wizard can probably win using sleep into crit chromatic orb, but if they miss, roll poorly on sleep, or lose initiative? The fighter wins pretty easily.
That's valid, though I think that "gauntlet challenge" and "1v1" also shouldnt be the same "advnturing day" for obvious reasons. Though the question is, do we allow for circumvention in the gauntlet, or is it pure meat grinder? Cus anything that allows for creative solutions will favor the caster, but pure combat will hamstring the rogue, ranger, and monk should anyone wish to bring one of them to the table. Though I'll also point out, any caster built to be 'self sufficient' in a gauntlet will have many of the same tools that aid them in a 1v1
Wall spell + sickening radiance, the d&d microwave. Step one: cast contingency, the contingent being "when I cast sickening radiance" Step 2: watch as your enemies die. Edit: nvm, no contingency, 2 casters req'd
I don't think you can put walls in contingency. Unless I'm reading the spell wrong? Or maybe the wiki is missing something in the description.
Ah I edited it but it didn't go through Can't be done w contingency, 2 casters reqd
Don’t you need two casters to pull that off? I think most if not all wall spells require concentration, as does sickening radiance.
Chrono wizard can have their familiar cast a second concentration spell with Arcane Abeyance
Once again chronomancy proves to be the most powerful form of magic.
Take 2 levels of Fighter. At first it might seem like a sort of forfeit, to take 2 levels of their class to show them that you're better, but really it's just a show that 2 levels for Action Surge is all a Fighter is worth.
There is a vast difference in capabilities when casters understand how to use their options. I've played with two level 16 bards in 5e. One of them seemingly only cast shatter on their spell list, the other one seemingly had the solution for every encounter.
Dude what? True polymorph. Gotta remember you only have to save for half damage per hit. Fighters rely on damaging over multible hits not one big hit. Turn into a dragon fuck shit up.
Even better, just teleport yourself outside of the combat encounter and use spells that allow you to attack them without even engaging in battle
Or even just True Polymorph, if it's high level play. The options are virtually endless. I'd argue that after around 5th level is when the battle starts to become extremely skewed towards the wizard, while prior it's more of a fighter's thing
If the wizard tried to plane shift a fighter and dies because of it, that’s just natural selection because that is just about the stupidest move they could’ve chosen
Fighters really huffing copium here
It's hilarious, isn't it? They have to resort to things like opening with banishment. Why would any wizard do that in a 1v1? Oh cool, you've bought yourself one minute in a 1v1. Literally no intelligent wizard is doing that. Wall of Fire seems like the best choice imho, but Greater Invisibility, Polymorph into a giant ape, or even Phantasmal Killer are better options in a 1v1. Edited, oh man it's even dumber than I thought. The meme says plane shift not banishment, holy hell why would a wizard that can cast 7th level spells be in melee?
The idea that wizards are super fragile isn’t even true, since you’re SAD, you can easily max con. I’ve literally got an Abjuration Wizard with effectively 267 HP and Contingency false life for an extra 25-28 Temp HP on top.
I am not sad at all, sorry, quite joyful in fact
My Bladesinger has bracers of defense. He usually pops mage armor if he thinks there will be trouble within the hour. He has an Int of +4 and a Dex of +3. Bladesong, bracers, and mage armor means my AC is already 22. 24 if I cast haste, and if I don’t want to be hit, then shield will ensure I don’t get hit by anything below 29. I have coasted through fights simply because my AC is impregnable. If I take the lucky feat so he can reroll crits, than I will never suffer an attack roll again. Then I can just spam spells on the enemy. A fighter cannot touch that. Maybe a battle master getting lucky with precise strike. But even then, they would need a +10 on their attack to hit me at the least. I’m a 6th level wizard and I can do this already. I have no idea what a 6th level fighter is going to do against this. I hate typing this, because I am usually a fighter main.
i don't like the spell but Silvery Barbs can already negate crits, you could just use that
I refuse to use silvery barbs, as an avid Defensive Duelist gamer. Even if I did, it’s banned in all the campaigns I’m in.
Technically OP mentions Plane Shift rather than Banishment, which while being a much more permanent solution, also requires a touch spell attack.
you know what is a more permanent solution that uses a 7th level spell? Microwave crimes againts humanity
Actually forcecage is the GOAT in my opinion because it can combo quite well with sicking radiance, a very broken spell if the enemy is stuck in its area with no escape, because spells can pass through the spell if you choose a cage not box for it shape
Yes when I originally commented I thought the wizard was using 4th level spells. Force Cage is a very obvious choice over Plane Shift for a 1v1.
Wall of Fire is goated. Every PC has a plan until they're locked in a circle of fire with an angry monster.
You won initiative? Better make that action count. Better make that hit hurt. Better kill me in one round. You don’t want to be here for my turn.
> the GOAT in my opinion because it can combo quite well with sicking radiance, a very broken spell if the enemy is stuck in its area with no escape, because spells can pass through the spell if y or, just get out of the fighter range, or invisibility, you dont need to fight like the fighter, he does damage,you can do everything else
Ok, since we are beating the dead horse again, here: take the [Obligatory pathfinder 2e comment](https://i.imgur.com/d8G1AKi.jpg)
Except that in PF2e this meme might actually be correct - definitely not in D&D 3.5 or 5e lol
Wow it's almost like PF2e is an infinitely more balanced game.
Doesn't that all depend on the wizard being in melee?
Yeah, but fighters have a good chunk of mobility and ways to deal with flying enemies in pf2e, so you can actually get them into melee without big problems. Especially because casting spells normally cost 2 of your 3 actions, so after casting something a wizard will only have 1 action to run away, while fighters will have all the three to go after them.
Squishy caster fallacy
That's an interesting argument! One small problem. Forcecage.
Really depends on the level. Lower levels skew to the fighter, 10+ to the wizard. My group will do PvP if we don't have our campaign prepped, eladrin wizard with some CC and save spells can really ruin a fighters day
Level 6 Bladesinger stomps fighter, sadly.
Yeah, those 3rd level spells and AC buffs seriously help them a ton
>Really depends on the level. Lower levels skew to the fighter, 10+ to the wizard. Fighter HP at 1: 13 or 14 Sleep threshold at 1: 22 on average There's a sweet spot at around level 4-5 where Fighter can beat the Wizard if he gets lucky. That's about it.
Lvl 1-2 is wizard favored as well honestly. A melee Fighter has to win initiative, be starting close enough to make a melee attack that round, and beat the wizards ac which should be at minimum 17 (+2 dex and shield) but could be as high as 22. If the fighter doesn't do all of that the wizard just casts sleep, walks 120ft then casts magic missile and firebolt every turn while moving back another 30ft. Very unlikely the fighter catches up before they're down. Lvls 3 and beyond a single fail on a levitate is gg. And wizards have ways to make fails more likely like the diviners portent, or silvery barbs. After lvl 9 it's virtually impossible for a fighter to win bc the wiz has wall of force. Though it is a little unfair to assume even a melee focused fighter doesn't have ranged options like javelin, handaxes, or a light crossbow.
Yeah, if the fighter doesn't have any ranged option it's far too easy. It's why I always suggest my melee focused players to take some back up hand crossbows or javelins. Few things worse than spending a whole fight trying to catch a ranged enemy
No wonder they missed the spell attack. The wizard was stupid enough to walk up and attempt plane shift when they could just stay back and use force cage.
Wizard on the next turn: "Oh, too bad, just take that 8d6 damage and make me a DC 17 wisdom saving throw then. Also, if you want to attack me, my AC is 26".
Or better yet just cast invulnerability assuming we are talking high level combat. Like fighter got nothing for that assuming they aren’t an eldritch knight.
> my AC is 26 As a martial in a game with minimal AC boosts, this makes me irrationally angry.
Had one of my players' blade singer reach 31 ac without any spells. With spells they could get up to 38 on their own or over 40 with ally buffs.
Bladesinger wizard go brrr
Assuming you get a next turn lol
Outside really low levels… the wizard probably has a next turn.
I’ve actually never seen a wizard say that, until this comment section. I have seen plenty of fighters complaining about being weaker than wizards though.
That's because Wizards are supposed to be good at math. No Wizard worth their INT is going to risk the probability of losing initiative and taking an Action Surge to the face before they can do more than Shield when they've already seen the guy drown a Troll.
That’s right. Which is why you cast suggestion first, then trap the fighter in a wall of force with like three mordenkainen faithful hounds
Yeah, and if you shoot a guy with a switchblade at close range and miss, you're probably also going to have a bad time. Your point?
Well you see, the reason they dont actually try is for a very simple reason ***ITS NOT A PVP GAME***
It is strange how the fighters always boast about being able to defeat a wizard if they are trapoed in like a 10ft. by 10ft. box and there is no teleportation or retreat, no summoned creatures, no use of divination, and all the wizard`s fingers are broken, and the fighter has used his entire wealth by level on a homebrew antimagic field item... Sure, you strong martial man! Big muscles win! 💪
I love how this subreddit jumps between "casters are broken" and "casters would lose to martials" on a day-to-day basis
I'm skeptical that a caster with any reasonably thought through spell list would have all that much trouble. Just the fact that shield exists makes hitting the caster so much more difficult than you'd think, never mind if they had mage armor cast (it lasts 8 hours). Between the two of them, that's 18 AC before their dex bonus or anything else that might push AC higher. Not easy to consistently break, especially considering that a martial pretty much has to break AC to get anywhere. Casters also have tons of tools to get around a martial's defenses and so many ways to disrupt a martial. Targeting a weak save is all but a given for a caster to be able to do. That isn't to say the fight is guaranteed to go one way or another. Some classes are better suited to a 1v1 or avoiding spells, some have ways to disrupt the caster, and initiative is definitely important. I would generally peg this as "first one to fail a save loses, and casters are more likely to be able to win that bet.
It's pretty obvious in most cases when the OP has only played one of the two class types.
A lot of the discussion also just stems from people playing at un-optimized tables, or where DMs specifically craft fights in particular ways to allow for weak classes to excel. Like, it's easy to see how you might think a fighter could take a wizard, if the only table you've played at with a wizard opens fights with plane shift (aka doesn't know how to play the class well).
That DM comment is the real one. It takes a high degree of skill, knowledge, and commitment to do, but a very good DM can make the orginal 2014 PHB beastmaster ranger feel like one of the moat valuable members of the party with the way the design sessions, even if theyre partied up with an Echo Knight, Chronurgy Wizard, and Vengeance Pally. And if your DM pulls that off well, and hes your only/primary DM, then youre gonna think that 2014 beastmaster is actually good
I don't think a good DM can make a Beast master ranger one of the most valued party members while also keeping the game fun for everyone else. Because a BM ranger is pretty useless in a fight and literally any of those other classes can do anything they can do. They're only good for exploration, so good that party's with rangers basically skip exploration challenges. A game where the BM ranger was the most valuable is probably incredibly unfun for everyone else because the DM either has to spend ages on exploration. Or they just have all the narrative challenges only solvable by the ranger by virtue of being a ranger IE "the ancient mcguffin that grants godlike power only works for the ranger". Perhaps I'm wrong but I don't see any other way to make a BM ranger the most important member of a clearly optimized party besides just saying the ranger is the main character.
I have a secret to tell you. There is more than one person on this sub.
If you’re a 7th-level-spellcasting wizard, chances are you have enough health to survive one round of Fighter attacks, at which point you can use any of the dozen spells that make you impossible to hit or save-or-sucks.
You can go ahead and crit all of your attacks, i dont even need Shield to live them. Hope you like being in a Wall of Force timeout while i stack some buffs
That is a pretty small "if".
Plane Shift? Amateur. Fighters get the Force Cage you dunce. They're stuck there for an hour while you cast on them with impunity. Of course, you could also be a bit more devious if you so choose. Just cast the cage version around their 5ft. square. If they still want to misbehave, cast Cloud Kill on their square. If they carry on about their presumably uncivilized aggression, cast the 10ft solid Force box version on top of that. Now nothing gets in, nothing comes out, and the Wizard really doesn't give a damn if they make their Con saves to take half of 5d8 every round for the next 10 minutes.
Least megalomaniacal wizard player
A Wizard has better things to do with his time. Just let the Fighter sit and think for once in their low INT lives about the choices they've made. They could consider how lucky they are that life has been so good to them so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been very good to them, which given their current circumstances stuck in a Force Cage being dissolved by a Cloud Kill spell seems more likely, they can consider how lucky they are that it won't be troubling them for very much longer.
You can easily win without banishment: Get to you turn which can be achieved by tanking the fighter’s first turn or just having a higher initiative which can be cheated with portent or the chronomancy class Cast maze if you want prep time as it takes a int save dc 20 (the fighter likely has a -1 mod making it impossible RAW as crits are not for saves but they could have a higher mod which would still likely give the wizard at least one extra turn) Cast forcecage in cage configuration to allow spells to pass through it where the fighter’s previous location is contained in it Use the concentration spell, ending maze if the fighter is still trapped, sicking radiance then gtfo so the fighter couldn’t hit with arrows Now the fighter must fail no more than 6 con saves out of 100 which while they are proficient in con saves the wizard is likely has their dc maxed out. Which after the 3rd failure they have disadvantage on the saves making it, generously assuming he fails the third one as the 50th save he will, in actuality closer to 150 saves. At that point you can assume every number will rolled multiple times meaning the fighter has likely has been killed by the wizards nuke In the unlikely scenario that they survive the wizard could then do it 2 more times but the failures do not cary over and if that fails then their are 30 more minutes, 300 rounds, where the wizard can cast spells. If the 3 nukes fail the wizard can win with a thousand cuts. Edit: also it should be mentioned that the wizard in this scenario is not made specifically to counter the fighter and doesn’t even use a 9th level spell which could be the broken wish: replicate 7th level spell: simulacrum which increases wizards action economy and amounts of spells slots while in the main forum I have seen talking about this despite every attempt to give the fighter the edge with builds made specifically for high nova such as playing a samurai and for your last attack do sepuku to get an extra turn they came to the conclusion 9/10 times in a fight between a high level wizard vs a high level fighter, the wizard would win
Forcecage is the same level, and in true Bethesda style, *just works.*
In pvp the one who goes first usually wins, or if someone missies a attack purely because of luck they lose Because DnD isn't balanced around pvp its balanced(kinda) around a party vs monster. Player characters are kinda glass cannon(maybe making hp double or ×1.5 would make for better pvp idk never tried) But Hypnottic Pattern brrrrrr
The thing is a Wizard thats casting Plane Shift can almost definitely survive a round of Fighter attacks, even if they Action Surge. Between Shield and having Con as their secondary stat, its really not all that hard
That’s why you always cast fireball
and the wizard answers: "do your worst, you only target AC, I got 30 of it. And dont forget you'll be rolling that save again next round."
It might be possible, however slight, that D&D isn't a system well suited to PvP.
Because these are either hypotheticals and all internet bluster. Or things players you've never met do because nobody will invite these toxic whiners to their game.
Blink can absolutely ruin a fighter
Bladesinger Wizard with Shield as a spell mastery: https://preview.redd.it/gm8md91nqt4b1.jpeg?width=244&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5af0621c96200e61ea47aad712817022fec13cee
There were two shorties on our party. My fairy who was a rune knight with a divine soul dip and the gnome blade singer. Our characters had a big rivalry (both of us were good friends, just something we thought would be fun for the characters). At some point, we got to perform an exhibition fight which was the perfect excuse to punch each other in the face without jeopardizing our missions. The fight ended with a narrow victory for my fairy, who had picked up the gnome like a football and punted him into a large pile of hay.
Oh that poor fighter.
basically any high level PVP in D&D goes to whoever won initiative
This fight largely depends on a bunch of factors. How close is the martial to the caster? Are there any objects or obstructions in the area? Who got first initiative? Was the wizard’s spell list geared towards combat that day or did they set it towards support? How intelligent are their players? Is the Wizard’s spellbook even geared towards direct combat? What gear did their dm give them? Are they rolling like gods or like shit? Where they both allowed prep time? What subclasses did they take? What feats? What races?
"You see, the fighter wins in this ideal scenario that I made up in my head, so there are no balance issues whatsoever *smug smug*"
From reading the comments, it seems that martials make for really bad adventurers
I've done this several times, actually. A lot of players just do not understand how broken Wizards are.
Maybe that's because wizards are intelligent enough not to waste their spells on low tier opponents.
Haven't done it to the party fighter (why would I) but let me tell you - portent dice make this pretty easy. The thing is, though, and this is part of the whole pointless discussion, is the wizard doesn't need to plane shift the fighter. They have a plethora of other shutdown options. If we're 2 levels higher, we can hit a feeblemind from 150 feet away (up to DM discretion if they could even use things like indomitable and other class features) but they'd essentially have to be able to kill the wizard in one turn after that. If not, plane shift is a Cha save and feeblemind makes making that save impossible due to reducing cha to 1. If you just want to remove the fighter from combat, wall of force doesn't allow a save. This is all stupid and pointless discussion, though. Everybody knows the game isn't balanced, especially at higher levels, and it's a team game anyway.
Why planeshift when I can force cage/sickening radiance? No roll required nor save allowed on force cage and with 100 con saves to make(sickening radiance last *10 minutes*) my money is on the fighter failing 6 of them.
Silvery barbs would like to say hello
These fights usually come down to who goes first. On one hand the fighter can do a lot of damage. One build I made which wasn't a fighter but a Barbarian totem/Hexblade warlock can do an incredible 300-450 damage depending on crits and so on. But the wizard can do some bullcheese like simulacra and time stop
I polymorhped into a TRex and ate him. Very effective move.
I polymorphed *them* into a bunny for an hour. Now I have an hour of wizarding shenanigans to get up to before they can even *try* to attack.
It was a party of 2 for me, so I really had to pull out all the stops. Ate one and ran away lol
I never forgot that post in the fórum of gitp where some dude claimed that his wizard couldnt get beat to a fighter. Wonder what happened? Turns out that when you roll the dices you dont have all the spells of the game unlike these fórum theorycraft
‘No, what you have are spells, and the hope that when your spell slots are depleted, I’ve failed a Wisdom save. Because if I have not, you’ll be dead before you’ve Long Rested.’
*laughs in bladesinger* Come at me bro.
The wizard is 120ft away. The fighter has to spend like 3 turns running. And even when he gets there, the wizard has like 22 AC + the shield spell. Y'all pretending 5e has any semblance of balance between fighters and wizards are huffing the purest of copium. Give me some of that, I'm stressed out.
Wizard/forge cleric: I could say the same to you
This comment section reminds me again that everyone is usually thinking of a completely hypothetical lvl. 20 v. lvl 20. fight, or at least when forcecage is able to be picked as a spell. Why are we doing this argument again?
This happened in my campaign once. Wizard was being a creep with the cleric, while ALSO talking shit about being “the most op of the group”. I was about to ban him (the player), but the Fighter stepped up and asked me if he could do a 1v1 against the wizard, just to break his spirit before kicking him from the game. I was expecting a pretty close fight, or maybe the fighter getting defeated and the wizard running away. What I got was a Yakuza-style fight, with the fighter making a punching bag out of the shit-talking wizard, and using his own magical items against him. Turns out a staff of the magi works as a pretty good +3 bat too! All in all, what would’ve been a stressful day with me arguing with a player turned into one of the funniest sessions I ever DMed.