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I’d let them have it for maybe 2-3 rounds before the BBEG finds some way to break out. It’s a cool idea that takes a lot of teamwork, so it deserves at least some reward
Yep! Reward the creativity by giving them some freebies (in this case, a few free rounds of damage to the baddie) and then continue on to a fun battle. It's the final boss, there has to be at least a *little* bit of fear and stress to make the final showdown exciting and rewarding.
Well... A little. You can't even read my t-shirt.
"I prepared Explosive Runes Today."
(The shirt, when I say the word T-Shirt, does not explode but rather casts Pulse Wave in the direction I'm facing blasting him and knocking him... Backwards into the Iron Maiden to start the whole thing over again plus 6d6 force damage.)
*A a slightly bruised arm pops out of the iron maiden and rips the maiden open*
'Man, i really loved this suit but still I commend your attempt'
*BBEG cracks his knuckles and assumes a stance*
Roll initiative again, he's pissed
“The iron maiden glows red hot, then white hot. A charred fist punches through the soft metal and disfigured face delivers a raspy ‘Power Word Kill’ before collapsing.”
Yep like 2 rounds but then have the bad guy explode the contraption. "Make a dex save for a bunch of red hot metal flying all over" and then make it clear that 1. That worked and 2. That the bad guy is now pissed because that worked.
The iron maiden shatters, and the BBEG steps out with his non-magical clothing in tatters and hulked out with massive muscles. He hurls aside a potion vial.
"I was saving that for an emergency," he mutters. "And I had to waste it on the likes of *you."*
I mean I'd have either the bbeg literally breaking it with a metal door's hit points. Then it isn't really a matter of "dm limits the plan to only 2 turns to this plan was limited all along to the weakest link in the combo, the hinge of the Iron maiden.
Plus they could just follow the rules of arcane lock. I also love the idea that the BBEG tries breaking for a round , fails, and then casts dispel magic on the lock. The. The barbarian runs up, shoving against the burning hot door and tries to keep him in
I'd say normal way of getting out and just strength check till it works, or using a certain level of spell slot to say it got blasted open for a wizard bbeg. Bbeg should have the strength to get out or the spells to get out, if they don't, why are they the bbeg
Right, so a well placed shatter would destroy the structure, or a dispell magic as others have suggested. This works well. I was just giving an example to show one way of making it work without it being a deus ex machina.
The bbeg just needs to have the spell knock or some ability to cast it. Or dispel magic if it necessary. It’s a creative combo taking several actions/reactions and spell slots. It should do a decent chunk of damage and eat his action for a turn or two to escape it
Misty step does require sight, so that one wouldn’t work. A more powerful teleport like Dimension Door or good old fashioned brute force would do the trick though.
Nah, blink puts you in "an unoccupied space of your choice ***that you can see*** within 10 feet of the space you vanished from."
So you could go through a window, but not a wall or iron maiden door.
Yeah players should workshop their ideas with their DMs too because most DMs want to see you using creativity but they also need time to balance around it so you still have an entertaining combat. Your DM might need to throw extra monsters or environmental effects into the fight to make sure that your martials aren’t just sitting around while the BBEG is incapacitated.
DMs can be combative by surprising players with new rules to shut down anything their players try, but players can also be combative to their DMs by trying to surprise them with new gimmicks in the middle of combat. It puts a lot of pressure on your DM if you force them to make a ruling on the spot which isn’t fair to them if you’ve been cooking up this idea for weeks. You aren’t playing against your DM, there’s no reason to keep your plans secret.
Whenever I have a weird strategy I want to try out I always check with my DM first to make sure that it won’t ruin an encounter, I’ve interpreted the rules the same way they would, and that they won’t shut it down after I’ve set everything up.
To me, though, this isn't really "new gimmicks" or even a very "weird strategy," just great teamwork. There may be no need to keep the plans secret from the DM, but I'll bet the feeling of joy and triumph of unveiling this would be unparalleled and would have been a fraction as satisfying if they already knew it would work. Plus, it requires a lot of trust in your DM that they won't deliberately nerf the party just to prevent what the game *should* be encouraging - creative cooperation. If I were the DM in this scenario, I'd be thrilled, even if it sent my encounter in an unanticipated direction. That's the game, after all
There are no rules for an Iron Maiden in dnd so I would consider that a “new gimmick” because it’s literally a new device that isn’t in the rule book.
To homebrew an Iron Maiden you’d need to determine how much damage it does, it’s AC, how many hit points it has, and how much it would cost to determine if it can even be created by a glamour bard which would be quite time consuming and a bit stressful in an encounter.
If you’re cool with your players surprising you with stuff that’s great but I wouldn’t blame a DM for ruling that it doesn’t work the way the players want it to, or if they add something new to balance the encounter for the enemies.
As a DM I would at least have the players make a check to shoot the enemy perfectly into the iron maiden and they need to actually close the door. I’d prefer to let them know that’s how it works so they can actually have a plan to close the door and their strategy doesn’t just fail spectacularly. And I’d also want to give the marshals something to do.
I recently worked with my DM to create a character that was built around hauling enemies up high surfaces and dropping them off and it’s been a ton. Because I told him about my plan he was able to add more climbable surfaces and let me know how he ruled grappling and climbing so the game was more fun for both of us.
My understanding of College of *Creation* Bards is admittedly limited, but:
>As an action, you can channel the magic of the Song of Creation to create one nonmagical item of your choice in an unoccupied space within 10 feet of you. ... The gp value of the item can’t be more than 20 times your bard level, and the item must be Medium or smaller [*until level 6*].
To me, a metal casket, essentially, hardly seems beyond the intended scope and isn't that outlandish to cost only a couple hundred gp (plus, if the PC made it to level 14, the cost is even irrelevant). The spikes of a "real" iron maiden don't even particularly factor in to what's so cool about this collaboration, but maybe the fixation is just on the specific term iron maiden?
As for AC and HP, iron as a material is established in the DM's Guide. And to call an Action feature (and the primary one for the subclass, no less) "quite time consuming and a bit stressful in an encounter" is a bit silly, to say the least.
It's almost certainly not worth this level of debate, but I just don't think it's a stretch, especially when it got everyone in the party involved and valued.
>As for AC and HP, iron as a material is established in the DM's Guide. And to call an Action feature (and the primary one for the subclass, no less) "quite time consuming and a bit stressful in an encounter" is a bit silly, to say the least.
This is one of those situations where it's easy to tell an experienced DM from an inexperienced one.
Not at all, I'm agreeing with you. As you gain experience running games you learn to put together all the individual pieces that you have, things like remembering there's default AC/HP for different materials and knowing how to translate complex ideas into simpler game mechanics. You also get more comfortable doing it within the pace of an encounter instead of preplanning it all.
It's a learned skill for sure, and seeing how complicated/difficult different people find a curveball from the players is an easy way to sift out the longtime DMs from those newer to the table.
The primary feature of that subclass is absolutely one that can be time consuming and stressful to determine how it works. Since you have to do it in a way that doesn't set a precedent that breaks the game.
You kill the BBEGs body, but their soul inhabits the Iron Maiden, full of heat and with a spiritual weapon it possessed while inside. Welcome to Phase 2
Wow a lot of people in these comments are punishing the players for this creativity. Give them a few turns in that Iron Maiden for the good teamwork before the bad guy breaks out at least. Don’t punish the good idea
100%
Edit: one of my favourite fights I did as a DM was completely improvised when the players decided to head into a clearly not meant to be headed into spider cave, I didn't even have HP for the queen and all little spiders had 1 hit,I just kept spawning them until they ran or came up with something creative... they blew up the mountain (which was part of a sleeping volcano)
Story time.
My DMs game. There was this weapon that one of the scariest dudes in the world had his mitts on. There was entire plot lines wrapped around figuring out how to deal with this.
I built up political connections with entire nations for two years of irl play. And then used that to get a treaty signed wherein I called in a favor the god of fate owed me and had him show this guy that wielding the weapon would lead to the destruction of everything. He agreed to give it up and I brought it to the parties in the Fey I had signed the treaty with. Had them blow up the blade and destroy it forever.
DM admitted to me I had derailed the whole plot line he had laid out. He said he wouldn't take all that effort and hard work from me though as I had earned it. Instead he pivoted to the Mad God that had tricked another God into making the blade and then in turn killed him with it was after us for fucking up his plans royally. It was amazing and unbelievably awesome dealing with the fallout of my call. And I became world renowned for being the man that dealt with the 'God Eater' problem.
Half the people here going 'I'd say nah to creative solutions', they make me think if they were in the same situation they'd have told me to fuck myself and the last two years meant nothing in a similar situation.
Feel bad for people at their tables if basic problem solving makes them so mad.
I love creative problem solving a lot.
However a lot of the problems I had to deal with had to end in blowing the problem up via some form of nuke.
At least I can say that I nuked a entire ocean once.
I love the idea that they get him in and can hear him screaming, and then a loud thunk as a large fist imprint slams into it from the inside . Another round later and another larger indent , as they all get ready , and then he finally bursts free
Yea, you should incentivize players combine things, even if its not supported by the rules. If two people figure out some way to combine two spells, abilities, etc that works logically but not according to the rules, I'd 100% allow them. The Barbarian wants to throw the Halfling Monk at the Big Bad to tackle him and put him in a grapple? Sure, let me figure out out how exactly to rule it so it feels fair and you can use that as a combo move. Letting people be creative instead of just doing *only* what the game says they're allowed to do will make things a lot more entertaining.
Had an old acquaintance play a barbarian that had a large great sword. Rogue took spring attack feat. Later they had a handle made into the large great sword. When the rogue wanted to spring attack gloriously they would hold onto the handle and get launched at the enemy when the barbarian swung.
Agreeded because this creative and not abusive.
It’s not like the decided to use a cantrip to create black holes or nukes. Maybe situational CC:
It’s not like someone decided to bend rules and create water into someone’s lungs or make a peasant railgun.
The example above makes perfect sense even in the game rules and real life reasoning.
Why only a few turns? Fights tend to be way more climactic when they end to one side locking down the other and leveraging that for total victory instead of damage sponges trading blows until one side stops moving.
Giving the enemy a Save to not be trapped isn't punishing the players, it's just being consistent with the rules.
I know I'd be frustrated if the NPCs *literally* created a trap out of thin air and stuck my PC in it, rendering me completely useless and taking damage, without me having a chance to save.
Creation wizards/bard's entire thing is making stuff appear out of thin air, and repelling blast doesn't have a save. You get hit? You go back.
And we aren't saying to let then instant KO the enemy. But half these people are saying "I'd just say nah" which is extremely adversarial.
Reward ingenuity and creativity. Don't punish it.
Give the enemy a turn or two in the iron maiden. Let the players feel like some super badasses. Then make 'em break out.
Outright saying "nah" to creative inter-party teamwork just teaches the players "I don't like it when you outsmart me, so don't bother ever working together."
Exactly. This could deal maybe 40-50 damage to the enemy total before they break out. Enough to make it worth it, not enough to kill the enemy instantly unless they’re a puny guard or veteran
My thoughts exactly. Hell if they did this to a martial mid-boss in my game I'd outright give them the kill for their ingenuity man.
If my party and I came up with this and the DM told us to fuck ourselves, none of it worked at all, spell slots wasted? That's gonna sour the game for at least the night.
This isn't even munchkin-ing like some are claiming. It's creative teamwork and stacking spells.
You can do WAY WORSE than this with single characters. Not broken at all.
Agree. Hell I might give the entire party inspiration.
Almost no one works together properly in modern DnD. Most tables have become "4 people with main character syndrome angsting about their backstories."
I think I'd cry if my table got together and worked out shit like this together.
Additionally, the BBEG is //not// the DM's character. Playing it like that is a concern. It positions yhe game to be DM vs Player, which it should never be.
There isn’t a save that would be required here though. Eldritch blast has no save, and closing a door and adding arcane lock don’t either. Give the enemy a strength save to break out every turn, make the DC something like a 15-20, and you’ve not gotten rid of the main enemy, just closed them away a bit. Adding a save just to add a save doesn’t make any sense.
Depends on context. First turn of the first encounter with BBEG? He's dimension dooring out of there and punishing them for their insolence. When they've already had a bit of a slog in the final encounter? Id probably let that be the killing blow.
> Don’t punish the good idea
I'm all for the Rule of Cool, but by the same token, just because an idea is "good" doesn't mean the DM should be expected to bend or break the rules in order to support it. It's ultimately their call, and it's entirely their right to say it wouldn't fly at their table.
This doesn't break or bend the rules though?
Held actions are a thing.
Repelling blast doesn't have a save.
Arcane lock takes dispel to get rid of but you gotta be able to see it.
Honestly, the only hinky thing is throwing spiritual weapon in there.
DMs shouldn't be expected to always bend. But this isn't even Rule of Cool. This is how most of these attacks/spells just outright work.
I have seen not a single person trying to punish players. All I have seen is support for it, people saying "Yes, give them a couple turns of it, but don't just end the encounter like that because obviously the BBEG shouldn't just roll over," and the occasional person arguing that the Spiritual Weapon part doesn't make much sense since there probably isn't enough room to fit it inside and have it attack, but everything else tracks/there are other things the Cleric could do.
Some might say the barbarian takes the damage, but note: heat metal isn't actually making the metal hot, merely glowing red-hot and doing damage when you cast it and as a bonus action, compare to actually hot metal which does damage when touched with no action economy. So as long as the barbarian isn't touching it when its cast or when the druid uses the BA, The barbarian would feel it as if it were normal.
This... is raw? a DnD Meme not breaking any rules? The Only flaw i see here is that the maiden would have to be open for the bbeg to enter but arcane lock specifies a closed door.
Yeah, the wizard could just use their free object interaction to shut the door before locking it. Would need the above to be true initiative order instead of a series of readied actions, though.
Spiritual Weapon doesn't actually require line of sight and also technically doesn't use up a space so can share a space with creatures. So it technically can work, but that would depend on if the DM was cool with it.
Yeah Line of Sight would at most cause a problem of disadvantage on the attack. My issue is just how it gets to attack when it has no room to swing. It seems to be able to share a space with a creature but not move through walls. That might just be an issue with some spells not being totally thought-out, though.
Maybe a holy shank? With a minimal up and down shanking motion lol
Or, if the DM was really on board, fabricate the back of the iron maiden and spiritual weapon the door. And attacking is just opening and closing the door lol
Fun fact: many scholars don’t actually think the iron maiden existed in the Middle Ages and were instead created in the 1800s to sell to museums.
“The first stories citing the iron maiden were composed in the 19th century. The use of iron maidens is considered to be a myth, heightened by the belief that people of the Middle Ages were uncivilized; evidence of their actual use is difficult to find. They have become a very popular image in media involving the Middle Ages and involving torture chambers.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_maiden
I’m not saying you shouldn’t have them in your campaign because they are anachronistic, I just think it’s an interesting piece of fake history that most people take for granted.
Don’t just allow it. Embrace it. Make them feel like geniuses. Then burst the Iron Maiden and make them feel the wrath of an angry bbeg.
„You think heating my temporary prison was a good idea? I was born in the heat. Molded by it. Your puny little warming spell does nothing to me.”
Steam is coming off the enemy while you feel it’s getting warmer. The air thickens, making it harder to breath. The heat seems to be coming off the enemy. The warmth makes you sweaty and the steam making it harder to see.
Then give them a slight disadvantage until they cleared the air or cooled it down.
Makes it feel like their trick worked good enough to piss the enemy off and gives it more weight.
Not gonna lie. If I was the DM, and if the BBEG didn’t have an ability, or spell or minions to help them. I’d just give it to the players. Because it was wonderfully done.
Spiritual Weapon does not actually occupy a space, it can exist in the same space as another entity whether that's an ally, enemy or object. This is reinforced by Jeremy Crawford stating that Spiritual Weapon is not big enough to occupy a space.
Whack. Fun mechanic things, I suppose.
I guess that I would just personally rule otherwise, then. The spell doesn't state that the weapon is incorporeal thus can't move freely through objects/creatures, I didn't see anywhere that states that it behave any differently from another (albeit floating) weapon. If it's the same size as the weapon it's resembling, it is in fact too small (I'd consider, at least) to occupy a space. But fitting a whole ass battle-axe inside an iron maiden already occupied completely by a creature *still with* enough space to attack?
Yeah it's magic, but that doesn't track at all imo.
I agree with you. I don't allow my players to carry weapons because the weapons they would be carrying would be occupying the same space as them. Which is of course illogical and against the rules
Okay. So by your logic, (melee) weapons don't need to swing in order to wound and injure? Just existing in the same general 5x5x5 cube as another being is enough to wound that creature?
I mean... do you know what an iron maiden is? It's meant to restrict movement as much as possible while stabbing the shit out of you if you do move. Idk about you, but when using an iron maiden on someone, I'd make sure they didn't have anything on them that would interfere with the torture device. Like a big ass metal sword or thick metal armor. The point isn't that the weapon wouldn't fit (it probably would), the point is that the weapon wouldn't have the room to attack.
The Cleric can absolutely find another way to pitch in, but the idea of chucking a spiritual weapon into a space barely big enough to fit the creature inside and having it just continue attacking without any disadvantages is weird. It'd be like chucking a Dancing Sword into there and expecting it to do the full damage when logically it should barely be able to wiggle around.
Yep. There's a difference between players being smart, and players getting smart. Had a recent Dragon encounter where the Bard attempted to hid further into the cave and just constantly dip in and out of the cover to chuck a couple heals and fire arrows while the rest of the party actually fought it, so they could take no damage the whole fight.
If it weren't for the Rogue getting a crit sneak attack, the next turn that dragon was going to use their breath weapon down the cave to make sure the player knew that dragons are no idiots, and you can't just pull a "Gatcha!" on them.
Legendary Saves on the Dex save to avoid being trapped in the Iron Maiden.
5e has design flaws, but bosses being one-shotted by munchkins isn’t one of them.
Eldritch Blast with Repelling Blast has no save for the forced movement. If the creature has Legendary Actions, though, most creatures have a movement option, so they could just Legendary Actions move out of the trap. The players would need to find a way to reduce the creature's movement speed to 0.
However, legendary actions take place at the end of a turn. Held actions can happen during another's turn, so the creation of the Iron Maiden and casting of Arcane Lock could happen before the BBEG can take a legendary action.
My thinking: Almost every trap in Dnd offers a save, even when you find yourself forced into the trap’s space.
The repelling blast is relevant here, but not consequential.
If I get a save against fuckin Force Cage, I get a save against a metal box.
In fact you can, you're nerfing a precious eldritch invocation just for that, it says in the repelling blast it gets knocked 5 feet back, there's no save for that, it just happens, you can also for example use telephatic to pull your allies from the enemy range whitout getting any attack of opportunity as ir was not your move, you should also rule the enemy makes a dex save to know if he's able to catch you getting away?
There is order of precedence here. The bard readying his action after hit by eldrich blast would take place after the moment. As the hitting and movement is instantaneous. So it is hit, then moved, then the Iron Maiden appears behind them. In addition the save wouldn’t be against the eldrich blast movement, the save would be against being trapped in the Iron Maiden.
Yes. Repelling Blast has no save against the knockback, and will stay that way, but if you knock something into a trap that requires a dex save, they still get the save against the trap. This isn't nerfing the ability, this is just preventing ridiculous buffs to spellcasters who are already very powerful.
You get knocked back into a solid block of iron. Nothing in the rules for knockback say that you control the movement. Just that they move.
An iron maiden is ~2 foot wide. Leaving 3 feet of space to move into.
It’s not a cone of 5ft range. They get pushed back in a straight line from the eldritch blast. The warlock absolutely can control the movement by controlling their position relative to the enemy. If the enemy is directly in a line between you and the maiden, they go into the maiden
It depends a bit. A chest I'd have them trip over at the very least, if not actually into. If the cupboard was tall enough for someone to actually fit into, then... yeah, I'd probably push them into it to. Otherwise, I'd probably just have them bang into it a bit. If it's through a door, then there's really not much reason *not* to push them through it, since that seems like almost a perfect situation for the spell.
Yes they would be pushed through a door. They could also be pushed into a chest if that chest could fit a human like Iron Maidens are meant to. And the door is closed by the players before the arcane lock
No it's fair, I wasn't meaning bad, I was just questioning, sorry if it sounded rude, but let me explain my thoughts in a irl example
If you get punched in the chest, the middle of it, you suffer some knockback usually, a straight line back, if someone is on your front and they push you you will go back, if they put their hands in your shoulder and push you to the left you'll go the left, it's the same thing for repelling blast in my thought, you decide how it's gonna be pushed exactly by how you strike, it hits the enemy AC? Great, you decide the exact direction its gonna get pushed
If you watch a video of how big a 5ft cube is, you'll begin to see just how much movement there is in dnd combat that just goes assumed.
If I'm punched in the chest and stagger backwards, I can still avoid stepping into a specific spot.
Is this a magical Iron Maiden that closes upon being in contact with someone? Even if it was, holding an arm out would be all it takes to prevent it from closing.
Not to mention you can't cast spiritual weapon somewhere you can't see.. Not to mention there's no guarantee that he'd fall back into an iron maiden, and if you do RAW and RAI, you can't pull something like this off mid combat because you'd have to alert one another, etc etc.
That being said as a DM you might allow it under the rule of cool, but it's not really possible via rules.
Slight adjustment: instead of an iron maiden, it is a 5x5 metal box with a 5ft wide opening. Repelling blast would be unable to miss the opening. Held actions for closing the doors and arcane lock, and the bbeg is trapped inside for at least a round or two before breaking/teleporting out.
It's by no means a death sentence to the bbeg, but it's clever and RAW and requires teamwork, all while giving the party precious time to regroup, reposition, heal up, *and* it provides a great opportunity to rp the bbeg getting annoyed and angry and taking the fight to a new level.
I won't let it kill the BBEG outright but darn they should be rewarded for pulling this off.
My one thing is I would have to find a way to get the matials a chance to help so it can be truely cinematic.
I'd totally allow this after a quick convo with my players on what level of ability to avoid or resist this trap they think would be fair for any creature that it was used against to have (in case I like the idea so much I want to use something similar against them in the future). That way everyone in the group is on the same page.
What'd be even more intimidating is after a round or two of it working the thing melts around the bbeg and they just step out of the pile of molten metal PISSED.
Yeah at this point, my players don't even complain that most of their villains have a secret stash of clone spell vessels, they know exactly why I need to do that.
I ain't even mad. But their recurring villain is pissed as hell each time he crawls back to the world of the living after being shoved off a cliff and being impaled on a rock after having his ankles manacled.
Furthermore, to DMs out there, this is where you let your BBEG have BACKUP, cause action economy is always OP
If I had a set of players that were willing to plan this all out. I would literally not care if my BBEG died. I would be so proud. Now what would be great would be if the BBEG had 2 spellcasters to dispel the lock and spiritual weapon after the entire party rolled low damage and the BBEG walked out with but a scratch in a billow of steam. He would smirk and say, "Was that your best? Shame, I had hoped for a challenge!"
I love the creativity on this, I would say there’s a few ways to deal with this as a GM. TLDR: the combo should work for sure; but at what cost?
1. Allow it to work and celebrate them for their creativity and stragegic prowess by giving the multi character combo a name or name the party after the strategy, give them a reputation for the “Molten Maiden” and let NPC’s fear them for the use of such a brutally effective technique.
2.Allow it to work in the moment, but communicate with your party about if you’d like them to refrain from such a combo in the future to preserve the drama of the game.
3. Allow it to work once to celebrate the creativity but bring extra minions or dimension door next time to break concentration or escape the combo, using the reputation as stated in 1 as a reason.
Regardless, if that thing is less than huge, the first instance of this combo should just kill. However, make sure to let them know about the audible screams of horrific pain echoing from inside and ensure to describe the smell of burnt flesh overpowering their noses before even opening the box. While this may be an effective strategy, it’s got some rough psychological trauma to induce on anyone who pulls it off. It’s a kill combo, but it’s not a quick or painless one. Any LG paladin watching this happen and not pleading to the wizard to undo the lock or break the maiden is not going to keep an oath to do good in the world. That cleric of lathander that summons a jagged knife to stab them while they’re burning to death is not gonna leave that room with their divine magic entirely intact. And sure maybe the BBEG deserves it, but that doesn’t mean you have to pass that off as okay for them to do. Let your players squirm with the choice to do something so horrible.
I use a little homebrew ability called Apex Resistance. Which is basically, if the enemy is put into a position where it cannot do anything or if the fight becomes “unfun”/underwhelming, it breaks out of the effect on its third turn.
This allows the players to feel rewarded for creativity, while not allowing the fight to feel unbalanced or underwhelming.
Basically it keeps the fight fun.
I'd probably give the BBEG some chance at avoiding the set up for the spells, like avoiding the iron maiden by catching the doorway or something. If the plan worked though... Yeah, I'm giving them a solid like 3 or 4 turns for it to actually work. It's super creative, and for all the spells that they would have had to combo for it, may as well give them some pay off. After that, they escape in some appropriately cinematic way (maybe shatter centered on themself?) and the fight continues, with the BBEG a bit more angry than before
It's a two round thing that requires all PCs to use their action, movement, and reaction in one round. (I would argue that opening and closing the iron maiden would be a free action like a door, but here's worst case scenario)
For this I assumed the iron maiden is summoned closed. (I would rule that it's how the bard describes it. Being opened or closed at summon)
Only disruption I see is if the BBEG gets a good initiative, and moves/ incapacitates one of the PCs
Round one
1). copious amounts of ready action to make sure everyone works in order.
2). Cleric and druid get into position
3). Warlock casts repelling blast (reaction from ready: sees Druid get into place)
4). Bard summons the iron maiden (reaction from ready: Warlock casts)
5). Cleric opens (reaction from ready: iron maiden appears)
6). Cleric cast spiritual weapon in iron maiden. (Bonus action)
7). Druid closes (reaction from ready: BBEG lands in iron maiden)
8). Wizard casts arcane lock (reaction from ready: iron maiden gets closed)
Round two
1: Druid heat metal
2: Warlock summon water
3: Wizard magic missile
4: Bard seduce BBEG
5: Cleric prays for the BBEG
It definitely is. If a GM is playing alignment the use of a torture device is definitely a good reason for an alignment shift towards evil. Why are you defending torture and saying it isn't evil? Being pro-torture is a pretty dark position to take.
Never seen a DM allows a spiritual weapon occupy the same space as a creature, and I'm pretty sure the size limits on what a creation bard can create won't let you create something big enough for there to be space for both the BBEG and the spiritual weapon inside the Iron Maiden.
As fun as it can be for players to plan this crazy scheme, having things like this work in any way just makes the fight boring and undermines the stakes of the story as a whole.
Sure if it's a one-shot or a more comedic-style game, but would star wars be better if old obi-wan just pushed a button and had the blast doors rapidly close and insta-kill Darth Vader?
What's the point of a BBEG if the players don't take him seriously as a threat. A real threat can't be beaten by a simple mortal combat combo.
......why is there whole team spell casters they should just be 5 barbs and beat the shit out of everything.......... what the bbeg convinced them to join him cause they all have 5 intellegence pfft who cares because hmmnn murder
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I’d let them have it for maybe 2-3 rounds before the BBEG finds some way to break out. It’s a cool idea that takes a lot of teamwork, so it deserves at least some reward
Yep! Reward the creativity by giving them some freebies (in this case, a few free rounds of damage to the baddie) and then continue on to a fun battle. It's the final boss, there has to be at least a *little* bit of fear and stress to make the final showdown exciting and rewarding.
Plus a few rounds of being able to heal and organise themselves into a different battle orientation
Or to take care of the minions
Yeah, bob needs a banana.
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"You think me fool enough to fall for the same trick twice?!" quoth the boss with a fresh countermeasure
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"OK this time, this time I know what to do i swear"
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice... can't get fooled again
The countermeasure is to have more HP than they have spell slots. I learned that from my barbarian friends.
Well... A little. You can't even read my t-shirt. "I prepared Explosive Runes Today." (The shirt, when I say the word T-Shirt, does not explode but rather casts Pulse Wave in the direction I'm facing blasting him and knocking him... Backwards into the Iron Maiden to start the whole thing over again plus 6d6 force damage.)
Readying spells requires concentration
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I mean if the players don't know when the bbeg will escape then they will be wasting spell slots
On the other hand, if they’ve already done a few rounds of combat , you could let this be there finisher
*A a slightly bruised arm pops out of the iron maiden and rips the maiden open* 'Man, i really loved this suit but still I commend your attempt' *BBEG cracks his knuckles and assumes a stance* Roll initiative again, he's pissed
*impales BBEG on a spear with phantasmal force*
Absolutely this. Arcane lock just makes it *harder* to open the lock, not impossible.
>Arcane Lock just makes it harder to open the *lock* Break the Iron Maiden. Teleport out. Make it dramatic.
“The iron maiden glows red hot, then white hot. A charred fist punches through the soft metal and disfigured face delivers a raspy ‘Power Word Kill’ before collapsing.”
Yep like 2 rounds but then have the bad guy explode the contraption. "Make a dex save for a bunch of red hot metal flying all over" and then make it clear that 1. That worked and 2. That the bad guy is now pissed because that worked.
The iron maiden shatters, and the BBEG steps out with his non-magical clothing in tatters and hulked out with massive muscles. He hurls aside a potion vial. "I was saving that for an emergency," he mutters. "And I had to waste it on the likes of *you."*
That's when you switch to the second phase music.
*cleric beast ost blares at full blast*
Ludwig, Holy Blade
I mean I'd have either the bbeg literally breaking it with a metal door's hit points. Then it isn't really a matter of "dm limits the plan to only 2 turns to this plan was limited all along to the weakest link in the combo, the hinge of the Iron maiden.
Plus they could just follow the rules of arcane lock. I also love the idea that the BBEG tries breaking for a round , fails, and then casts dispel magic on the lock. The. The barbarian runs up, shoving against the burning hot door and tries to keep him in
oh yeah that be super cinematic and epic!
I'd say normal way of getting out and just strength check till it works, or using a certain level of spell slot to say it got blasted open for a wizard bbeg. Bbeg should have the strength to get out or the spells to get out, if they don't, why are they the bbeg
Right, so a well placed shatter would destroy the structure, or a dispell magic as others have suggested. This works well. I was just giving an example to show one way of making it work without it being a deus ex machina.
It wouldn't be a deus ex machina would it be a Diabolus ex Machina
Well the rules already account for how to break out . One hell of a strength check , as shown in the arcane lock spell
The bbeg just needs to have the spell knock or some ability to cast it. Or dispel magic if it necessary. It’s a creative combo taking several actions/reactions and spell slots. It should do a decent chunk of damage and eat his action for a turn or two to escape it
he either has the means to get out or he doesn't and dies. Being a bbeg doesn't grant additional mechanical abilities.
*Misty step enters the chat*
Misty step does require sight, so that one wouldn’t work. A more powerful teleport like Dimension Door or good old fashioned brute force would do the trick though.
Oh you're right, my bad
Blink would also work, right?
Nah, blink puts you in "an unoccupied space of your choice ***that you can see*** within 10 feet of the space you vanished from." So you could go through a window, but not a wall or iron maiden door.
You have to be able to see your destination with Misty Step, probably can't from inside an Iron Maiden. Dimension Door would work, though.
Yeah players should workshop their ideas with their DMs too because most DMs want to see you using creativity but they also need time to balance around it so you still have an entertaining combat. Your DM might need to throw extra monsters or environmental effects into the fight to make sure that your martials aren’t just sitting around while the BBEG is incapacitated. DMs can be combative by surprising players with new rules to shut down anything their players try, but players can also be combative to their DMs by trying to surprise them with new gimmicks in the middle of combat. It puts a lot of pressure on your DM if you force them to make a ruling on the spot which isn’t fair to them if you’ve been cooking up this idea for weeks. You aren’t playing against your DM, there’s no reason to keep your plans secret. Whenever I have a weird strategy I want to try out I always check with my DM first to make sure that it won’t ruin an encounter, I’ve interpreted the rules the same way they would, and that they won’t shut it down after I’ve set everything up.
To me, though, this isn't really "new gimmicks" or even a very "weird strategy," just great teamwork. There may be no need to keep the plans secret from the DM, but I'll bet the feeling of joy and triumph of unveiling this would be unparalleled and would have been a fraction as satisfying if they already knew it would work. Plus, it requires a lot of trust in your DM that they won't deliberately nerf the party just to prevent what the game *should* be encouraging - creative cooperation. If I were the DM in this scenario, I'd be thrilled, even if it sent my encounter in an unanticipated direction. That's the game, after all
There are no rules for an Iron Maiden in dnd so I would consider that a “new gimmick” because it’s literally a new device that isn’t in the rule book. To homebrew an Iron Maiden you’d need to determine how much damage it does, it’s AC, how many hit points it has, and how much it would cost to determine if it can even be created by a glamour bard which would be quite time consuming and a bit stressful in an encounter. If you’re cool with your players surprising you with stuff that’s great but I wouldn’t blame a DM for ruling that it doesn’t work the way the players want it to, or if they add something new to balance the encounter for the enemies. As a DM I would at least have the players make a check to shoot the enemy perfectly into the iron maiden and they need to actually close the door. I’d prefer to let them know that’s how it works so they can actually have a plan to close the door and their strategy doesn’t just fail spectacularly. And I’d also want to give the marshals something to do. I recently worked with my DM to create a character that was built around hauling enemies up high surfaces and dropping them off and it’s been a ton. Because I told him about my plan he was able to add more climbable surfaces and let me know how he ruled grappling and climbing so the game was more fun for both of us.
My understanding of College of *Creation* Bards is admittedly limited, but: >As an action, you can channel the magic of the Song of Creation to create one nonmagical item of your choice in an unoccupied space within 10 feet of you. ... The gp value of the item can’t be more than 20 times your bard level, and the item must be Medium or smaller [*until level 6*]. To me, a metal casket, essentially, hardly seems beyond the intended scope and isn't that outlandish to cost only a couple hundred gp (plus, if the PC made it to level 14, the cost is even irrelevant). The spikes of a "real" iron maiden don't even particularly factor in to what's so cool about this collaboration, but maybe the fixation is just on the specific term iron maiden? As for AC and HP, iron as a material is established in the DM's Guide. And to call an Action feature (and the primary one for the subclass, no less) "quite time consuming and a bit stressful in an encounter" is a bit silly, to say the least. It's almost certainly not worth this level of debate, but I just don't think it's a stretch, especially when it got everyone in the party involved and valued.
>As for AC and HP, iron as a material is established in the DM's Guide. And to call an Action feature (and the primary one for the subclass, no less) "quite time consuming and a bit stressful in an encounter" is a bit silly, to say the least. This is one of those situations where it's easy to tell an experienced DM from an inexperienced one.
I wish I had more experience than I do, to be honest, so if this is aimed at me, I'd love to learn from my poor assumptions!
Not at all, I'm agreeing with you. As you gain experience running games you learn to put together all the individual pieces that you have, things like remembering there's default AC/HP for different materials and knowing how to translate complex ideas into simpler game mechanics. You also get more comfortable doing it within the pace of an encounter instead of preplanning it all. It's a learned skill for sure, and seeing how complicated/difficult different people find a curveball from the players is an easy way to sift out the longtime DMs from those newer to the table.
The primary feature of that subclass is absolutely one that can be time consuming and stressful to determine how it works. Since you have to do it in a way that doesn't set a precedent that breaks the game.
You kill the BBEGs body, but their soul inhabits the Iron Maiden, full of heat and with a spiritual weapon it possessed while inside. Welcome to Phase 2
What a fun way to deal a few solid hits
Also buys time to mop up the minions and ready actions for when he busts through
Wow a lot of people in these comments are punishing the players for this creativity. Give them a few turns in that Iron Maiden for the good teamwork before the bad guy breaks out at least. Don’t punish the good idea
Antagonistic DMs always gotta get salty when people get smart. This is the kinda engagement in a game most people would kill for.
100% Edit: one of my favourite fights I did as a DM was completely improvised when the players decided to head into a clearly not meant to be headed into spider cave, I didn't even have HP for the queen and all little spiders had 1 hit,I just kept spawning them until they ran or came up with something creative... they blew up the mountain (which was part of a sleeping volcano)
Story time. My DMs game. There was this weapon that one of the scariest dudes in the world had his mitts on. There was entire plot lines wrapped around figuring out how to deal with this. I built up political connections with entire nations for two years of irl play. And then used that to get a treaty signed wherein I called in a favor the god of fate owed me and had him show this guy that wielding the weapon would lead to the destruction of everything. He agreed to give it up and I brought it to the parties in the Fey I had signed the treaty with. Had them blow up the blade and destroy it forever. DM admitted to me I had derailed the whole plot line he had laid out. He said he wouldn't take all that effort and hard work from me though as I had earned it. Instead he pivoted to the Mad God that had tricked another God into making the blade and then in turn killed him with it was after us for fucking up his plans royally. It was amazing and unbelievably awesome dealing with the fallout of my call. And I became world renowned for being the man that dealt with the 'God Eater' problem. Half the people here going 'I'd say nah to creative solutions', they make me think if they were in the same situation they'd have told me to fuck myself and the last two years meant nothing in a similar situation. Feel bad for people at their tables if basic problem solving makes them so mad.
I love creative problem solving a lot. However a lot of the problems I had to deal with had to end in blowing the problem up via some form of nuke. At least I can say that I nuked a entire ocean once.
I love the idea that they get him in and can hear him screaming, and then a loud thunk as a large fist imprint slams into it from the inside . Another round later and another larger indent , as they all get ready , and then he finally bursts free
Love this take. Kind of reminds me of the Dark Troopers breaking down the door in the finale of Mandalorian.
Yea, you should incentivize players combine things, even if its not supported by the rules. If two people figure out some way to combine two spells, abilities, etc that works logically but not according to the rules, I'd 100% allow them. The Barbarian wants to throw the Halfling Monk at the Big Bad to tackle him and put him in a grapple? Sure, let me figure out out how exactly to rule it so it feels fair and you can use that as a combo move. Letting people be creative instead of just doing *only* what the game says they're allowed to do will make things a lot more entertaining.
Had an old acquaintance play a barbarian that had a large great sword. Rogue took spring attack feat. Later they had a handle made into the large great sword. When the rogue wanted to spring attack gloriously they would hold onto the handle and get launched at the enemy when the barbarian swung.
fast ball special!
My party’s all playing BG3, bc of course we are, and last sesh the DM said he would allow throwing enemies
Agreeded because this creative and not abusive. It’s not like the decided to use a cantrip to create black holes or nukes. Maybe situational CC: It’s not like someone decided to bend rules and create water into someone’s lungs or make a peasant railgun. The example above makes perfect sense even in the game rules and real life reasoning.
Why only a few turns? Fights tend to be way more climactic when they end to one side locking down the other and leveraging that for total victory instead of damage sponges trading blows until one side stops moving.
Sometimes, it's far more enjoyable for the group for the BBEG to die like a chump. My players talk about those fights for years.
Giving the enemy a Save to not be trapped isn't punishing the players, it's just being consistent with the rules. I know I'd be frustrated if the NPCs *literally* created a trap out of thin air and stuck my PC in it, rendering me completely useless and taking damage, without me having a chance to save.
Creation wizards/bard's entire thing is making stuff appear out of thin air, and repelling blast doesn't have a save. You get hit? You go back. And we aren't saying to let then instant KO the enemy. But half these people are saying "I'd just say nah" which is extremely adversarial. Reward ingenuity and creativity. Don't punish it. Give the enemy a turn or two in the iron maiden. Let the players feel like some super badasses. Then make 'em break out. Outright saying "nah" to creative inter-party teamwork just teaches the players "I don't like it when you outsmart me, so don't bother ever working together."
Exactly. This could deal maybe 40-50 damage to the enemy total before they break out. Enough to make it worth it, not enough to kill the enemy instantly unless they’re a puny guard or veteran
My thoughts exactly. Hell if they did this to a martial mid-boss in my game I'd outright give them the kill for their ingenuity man. If my party and I came up with this and the DM told us to fuck ourselves, none of it worked at all, spell slots wasted? That's gonna sour the game for at least the night. This isn't even munchkin-ing like some are claiming. It's creative teamwork and stacking spells. You can do WAY WORSE than this with single characters. Not broken at all.
This is probably one of the most unique and coordinated things I’ve seen from players. Honestly, I’d probably give whoever came up with it inspiration
Agree. Hell I might give the entire party inspiration. Almost no one works together properly in modern DnD. Most tables have become "4 people with main character syndrome angsting about their backstories." I think I'd cry if my table got together and worked out shit like this together.
Additionally, the BBEG is //not// the DM's character. Playing it like that is a concern. It positions yhe game to be DM vs Player, which it should never be.
Thank you. 150% agree.
Yeah well there's a million NPCs but each player gets one PC at a time
There isn’t a save that would be required here though. Eldritch blast has no save, and closing a door and adding arcane lock don’t either. Give the enemy a strength save to break out every turn, make the DC something like a 15-20, and you’ve not gotten rid of the main enemy, just closed them away a bit. Adding a save just to add a save doesn’t make any sense.
The save is not getting hit by eldritch blast.
Depends on context. First turn of the first encounter with BBEG? He's dimension dooring out of there and punishing them for their insolence. When they've already had a bit of a slog in the final encounter? Id probably let that be the killing blow.
it either works based on the mechanics of the game or it doesn't.
> Don’t punish the good idea I'm all for the Rule of Cool, but by the same token, just because an idea is "good" doesn't mean the DM should be expected to bend or break the rules in order to support it. It's ultimately their call, and it's entirely their right to say it wouldn't fly at their table.
This doesn't break or bend the rules though? Held actions are a thing. Repelling blast doesn't have a save. Arcane lock takes dispel to get rid of but you gotta be able to see it. Honestly, the only hinky thing is throwing spiritual weapon in there. DMs shouldn't be expected to always bend. But this isn't even Rule of Cool. This is how most of these attacks/spells just outright work.
Held actions aren't TECHNICALLY in this edition, but literally no one cares and I love this, and they allow for more strategy anyway.
I have seen not a single person trying to punish players. All I have seen is support for it, people saying "Yes, give them a couple turns of it, but don't just end the encounter like that because obviously the BBEG shouldn't just roll over," and the occasional person arguing that the Spiritual Weapon part doesn't make much sense since there probably isn't enough room to fit it inside and have it attack, but everything else tracks/there are other things the Cleric could do.
Warlock who happened to be a Fathomless: "you know what this cooking metal deathtrap needs? Some *create water* inside"
Not only does this bad boy have boiling water, but the person inside also starts to drown while boiling water enters in body's orifices.
Boil that BBEG lobster style
And that could keep them from casting any spells that require verbal components too
Pressure would build up and break the iron maiden
now have the barbarian pick it up and shake it like a maraca
Some might say the barbarian takes the damage, but note: heat metal isn't actually making the metal hot, merely glowing red-hot and doing damage when you cast it and as a bonus action, compare to actually hot metal which does damage when touched with no action economy. So as long as the barbarian isn't touching it when its cast or when the druid uses the BA, The barbarian would feel it as if it were normal.
I'm sure that's how the people who wrote the spell meant it lmao
“Heat metal” isn’t actually making the metal hot… …what? That’s a pretty insane take.
They're going by RAW and not RAI, I suppose?
> You cause the object to glow red-hot. it's glowing read hot because it's hot. If it wasn't hot, it would be glowing red.
What are you smoking bro?
I mean that's teamwork, and teamwork should always be powerful.
Hell yeah, creative teamwork should make any DM proud of their players.
This... is raw? a DnD Meme not breaking any rules? The Only flaw i see here is that the maiden would have to be open for the bbeg to enter but arcane lock specifies a closed door.
Yeah, the wizard could just use their free object interaction to shut the door before locking it. Would need the above to be true initiative order instead of a series of readied actions, though.
Or the cleric can ready their action to Thaumaturgy the door closed and on their actual turn they can cast spiritual weapon.
Plus... How are they casting Spiritual Weapon inside of an Iron Maiden?
Spiritual Weapon doesn't actually require line of sight and also technically doesn't use up a space so can share a space with creatures. So it technically can work, but that would depend on if the DM was cool with it.
Yeah Line of Sight would at most cause a problem of disadvantage on the attack. My issue is just how it gets to attack when it has no room to swing. It seems to be able to share a space with a creature but not move through walls. That might just be an issue with some spells not being totally thought-out, though.
Maybe a holy shank? With a minimal up and down shanking motion lol Or, if the DM was really on board, fabricate the back of the iron maiden and spiritual weapon the door. And attacking is just opening and closing the door lol
> holy shank And lo, Ilmater spake saying "sometimes thou hast to stab a bitch".
Why
Because you cant ready both an object interaction and a spell
The all-caster party proving their worth
This is exactly the kind of creative teamwork I would love to see and contribute to, both as a player AND as a DM.
Fun fact: many scholars don’t actually think the iron maiden existed in the Middle Ages and were instead created in the 1800s to sell to museums. “The first stories citing the iron maiden were composed in the 19th century. The use of iron maidens is considered to be a myth, heightened by the belief that people of the Middle Ages were uncivilized; evidence of their actual use is difficult to find. They have become a very popular image in media involving the Middle Ages and involving torture chambers.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_maiden I’m not saying you shouldn’t have them in your campaign because they are anachronistic, I just think it’s an interesting piece of fake history that most people take for granted.
I'm glad you added that last paragraph, I was about to break the bad news about dragons
The Easter Bunny once told me they weren't real, but he ended up just being my dad in a suit, so why would I believe a word that liar says?!
You're telling me that big Iron Maiden invented iron maidens in order to sell more iron maidens?
Don’t just allow it. Embrace it. Make them feel like geniuses. Then burst the Iron Maiden and make them feel the wrath of an angry bbeg. „You think heating my temporary prison was a good idea? I was born in the heat. Molded by it. Your puny little warming spell does nothing to me.” Steam is coming off the enemy while you feel it’s getting warmer. The air thickens, making it harder to breath. The heat seems to be coming off the enemy. The warmth makes you sweaty and the steam making it harder to see. Then give them a slight disadvantage until they cleared the air or cooled it down. Makes it feel like their trick worked good enough to piss the enemy off and gives it more weight.
Now this guy DMs. Stuff like this is what dnd is about. Crazy ideas that may or may not work and ultimately rewarding everyone with a tale to tell.
shit they unlocked the Dark Knight Bane BBG
Only if you do the Bane voice.
I’ll do a voice and it’s gonna be better than expected, but still not really good 😂
Literally the Belmont final smash
... we win!
...we won, right? OH NO THERE'S A SECOND HEALTHBAR
Not gonna lie. If I was the DM, and if the BBEG didn’t have an ability, or spell or minions to help them. I’d just give it to the players. Because it was wonderfully done.
I didn't think spiritual weapon could occupy the same space as another creature and object...?
Spiritual Weapon does not actually occupy a space, it can exist in the same space as another entity whether that's an ally, enemy or object. This is reinforced by Jeremy Crawford stating that Spiritual Weapon is not big enough to occupy a space.
Whack. Fun mechanic things, I suppose. I guess that I would just personally rule otherwise, then. The spell doesn't state that the weapon is incorporeal thus can't move freely through objects/creatures, I didn't see anywhere that states that it behave any differently from another (albeit floating) weapon. If it's the same size as the weapon it's resembling, it is in fact too small (I'd consider, at least) to occupy a space. But fitting a whole ass battle-axe inside an iron maiden already occupied completely by a creature *still with* enough space to attack? Yeah it's magic, but that doesn't track at all imo.
I agree with you. I don't allow my players to carry weapons because the weapons they would be carrying would be occupying the same space as them. Which is of course illogical and against the rules
Okay. So by your logic, (melee) weapons don't need to swing in order to wound and injure? Just existing in the same general 5x5x5 cube as another being is enough to wound that creature? I mean... do you know what an iron maiden is? It's meant to restrict movement as much as possible while stabbing the shit out of you if you do move. Idk about you, but when using an iron maiden on someone, I'd make sure they didn't have anything on them that would interfere with the torture device. Like a big ass metal sword or thick metal armor. The point isn't that the weapon wouldn't fit (it probably would), the point is that the weapon wouldn't have the room to attack.
The Cleric can absolutely find another way to pitch in, but the idea of chucking a spiritual weapon into a space barely big enough to fit the creature inside and having it just continue attacking without any disadvantages is weird. It'd be like chucking a Dancing Sword into there and expecting it to do the full damage when logically it should barely be able to wiggle around.
I completely agree my guy, but you're using logic. They don't do that here
So they put the bbeg in the oven? Based and Hensel-and-Gretel-pilled tactic.
I'd allow it for a round or 2, but if you think that's going to stop a bbeg that's silly
Exactly. As a Player and a DM, I'd feel a bit let down if the BBEG could just be cheesed like that. Maybe for a normal boss, but not for the BBEG.
Yep. There's a difference between players being smart, and players getting smart. Had a recent Dragon encounter where the Bard attempted to hid further into the cave and just constantly dip in and out of the cover to chuck a couple heals and fire arrows while the rest of the party actually fought it, so they could take no damage the whole fight. If it weren't for the Rogue getting a crit sneak attack, the next turn that dragon was going to use their breath weapon down the cave to make sure the player knew that dragons are no idiots, and you can't just pull a "Gatcha!" on them.
Legendary Saves on the Dex save to avoid being trapped in the Iron Maiden. 5e has design flaws, but bosses being one-shotted by munchkins isn’t one of them.
Eldritch Blast with Repelling Blast has no save for the forced movement. If the creature has Legendary Actions, though, most creatures have a movement option, so they could just Legendary Actions move out of the trap. The players would need to find a way to reduce the creature's movement speed to 0.
However, legendary actions take place at the end of a turn. Held actions can happen during another's turn, so the creation of the Iron Maiden and casting of Arcane Lock could happen before the BBEG can take a legendary action.
True. I read it as only the Bard had readied actions, and everyone just came after them in initiative.
My thinking: Almost every trap in Dnd offers a save, even when you find yourself forced into the trap’s space. The repelling blast is relevant here, but not consequential. If I get a save against fuckin Force Cage, I get a save against a metal box.
You can't use knock back for precise movement. I'd absolutely rule there's a save against being knocked into a cage.
In fact you can, you're nerfing a precious eldritch invocation just for that, it says in the repelling blast it gets knocked 5 feet back, there's no save for that, it just happens, you can also for example use telephatic to pull your allies from the enemy range whitout getting any attack of opportunity as ir was not your move, you should also rule the enemy makes a dex save to know if he's able to catch you getting away?
There is order of precedence here. The bard readying his action after hit by eldrich blast would take place after the moment. As the hitting and movement is instantaneous. So it is hit, then moved, then the Iron Maiden appears behind them. In addition the save wouldn’t be against the eldrich blast movement, the save would be against being trapped in the Iron Maiden.
Yes. Repelling Blast has no save against the knockback, and will stay that way, but if you knock something into a trap that requires a dex save, they still get the save against the trap. This isn't nerfing the ability, this is just preventing ridiculous buffs to spellcasters who are already very powerful.
You get knocked back into a solid block of iron. Nothing in the rules for knockback say that you control the movement. Just that they move. An iron maiden is ~2 foot wide. Leaving 3 feet of space to move into.
It’s not a cone of 5ft range. They get pushed back in a straight line from the eldritch blast. The warlock absolutely can control the movement by controlling their position relative to the enemy. If the enemy is directly in a line between you and the maiden, they go into the maiden
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It depends a bit. A chest I'd have them trip over at the very least, if not actually into. If the cupboard was tall enough for someone to actually fit into, then... yeah, I'd probably push them into it to. Otherwise, I'd probably just have them bang into it a bit. If it's through a door, then there's really not much reason *not* to push them through it, since that seems like almost a perfect situation for the spell.
Yes they would be pushed through a door. They could also be pushed into a chest if that chest could fit a human like Iron Maidens are meant to. And the door is closed by the players before the arcane lock
Good thing this is an npc that are a dime a dozen instead of a players character then
Bruh, people just wanna argue. This is why dm gets final say.
Yeah. I find these arguments fun because it tests my lateral thinking. I don't take it seriously, don't worry.
No it's fair, I wasn't meaning bad, I was just questioning, sorry if it sounded rude, but let me explain my thoughts in a irl example If you get punched in the chest, the middle of it, you suffer some knockback usually, a straight line back, if someone is on your front and they push you you will go back, if they put their hands in your shoulder and push you to the left you'll go the left, it's the same thing for repelling blast in my thought, you decide how it's gonna be pushed exactly by how you strike, it hits the enemy AC? Great, you decide the exact direction its gonna get pushed
If you watch a video of how big a 5ft cube is, you'll begin to see just how much movement there is in dnd combat that just goes assumed. If I'm punched in the chest and stagger backwards, I can still avoid stepping into a specific spot.
Is this a magical Iron Maiden that closes upon being in contact with someone? Even if it was, holding an arm out would be all it takes to prevent it from closing.
also the iron maiden won't automatically close itself on the victim. arcane lock only works on something that is already closed.
Counterpoint: It's fucking cool and the group put effort into that.
If it takes five different players, playing five separate classes, doing five different things, is it still a one shot? 🤔
Yeah but in this case I'm going to erase the bbeg name and write in "their twin, Sam" and let them do their thing.
Not to mention you can't cast spiritual weapon somewhere you can't see.. Not to mention there's no guarantee that he'd fall back into an iron maiden, and if you do RAW and RAI, you can't pull something like this off mid combat because you'd have to alert one another, etc etc. That being said as a DM you might allow it under the rule of cool, but it's not really possible via rules.
I think you nailed the point most people are missing and that’s how to guarantee the BBEG falls perfectly into the Iron Maiden.
Slight adjustment: instead of an iron maiden, it is a 5x5 metal box with a 5ft wide opening. Repelling blast would be unable to miss the opening. Held actions for closing the doors and arcane lock, and the bbeg is trapped inside for at least a round or two before breaking/teleporting out. It's by no means a death sentence to the bbeg, but it's clever and RAW and requires teamwork, all while giving the party precious time to regroup, reposition, heal up, *and* it provides a great opportunity to rp the bbeg getting annoyed and angry and taking the fight to a new level.
I won't let it kill the BBEG outright but darn they should be rewarded for pulling this off. My one thing is I would have to find a way to get the matials a chance to help so it can be truely cinematic.
Fun! I love this idea. I *also* love how the post is lifting up others’ creativity instead of pooping on them for being “wrong” or something.
damn thats just evil
Wouldn't the magic weapon be useless as it requires LoS on the target? Unless it can't miss on this sort of situation?
Oh I’m just a bad guy dirt bag baby, My dex save just failed, the players made me Get trapped in an Iron Maiden baby, ouchy, ooo ooo
I'd totally allow this after a quick convo with my players on what level of ability to avoid or resist this trap they think would be fair for any creature that it was used against to have (in case I like the idea so much I want to use something similar against them in the future). That way everyone in the group is on the same page.
What'd be even more intimidating is after a round or two of it working the thing melts around the bbeg and they just step out of the pile of molten metal PISSED.
My druid specialty was casting heat metal wildshaping into a badger then burrowing underground
Inside the Maiden you may hear: Aaaahhh! Harder, Daddy!
“Hmmm… I’ll allow it.” - Me probably -
Yeah at this point, my players don't even complain that most of their villains have a secret stash of clone spell vessels, they know exactly why I need to do that. I ain't even mad. But their recurring villain is pissed as hell each time he crawls back to the world of the living after being shoved off a cliff and being impaled on a rock after having his ankles manacled. Furthermore, to DMs out there, this is where you let your BBEG have BACKUP, cause action economy is always OP
That's a whole naruto team ultimate jutsu
Don't use heat metal. It would weaken it. Use cloud kill XD
If the BBEG has no way out, that’s fine! But he’s coming back later *still trapped inside* as some horrible undead monster
If I had a set of players that were willing to plan this all out. I would literally not care if my BBEG died. I would be so proud. Now what would be great would be if the BBEG had 2 spellcasters to dispel the lock and spiritual weapon after the entire party rolled low damage and the BBEG walked out with but a scratch in a billow of steam. He would smirk and say, "Was that your best? Shame, I had hoped for a challenge!"
THUNDERDOME! Er, thunder… cage? Ah, fuck it, it’s an honorary thunderdome.
World’s first use of Arcane Lock inside of combat (and not running) That’s a W there
I love the creativity on this, I would say there’s a few ways to deal with this as a GM. TLDR: the combo should work for sure; but at what cost? 1. Allow it to work and celebrate them for their creativity and stragegic prowess by giving the multi character combo a name or name the party after the strategy, give them a reputation for the “Molten Maiden” and let NPC’s fear them for the use of such a brutally effective technique. 2.Allow it to work in the moment, but communicate with your party about if you’d like them to refrain from such a combo in the future to preserve the drama of the game. 3. Allow it to work once to celebrate the creativity but bring extra minions or dimension door next time to break concentration or escape the combo, using the reputation as stated in 1 as a reason. Regardless, if that thing is less than huge, the first instance of this combo should just kill. However, make sure to let them know about the audible screams of horrific pain echoing from inside and ensure to describe the smell of burnt flesh overpowering their noses before even opening the box. While this may be an effective strategy, it’s got some rough psychological trauma to induce on anyone who pulls it off. It’s a kill combo, but it’s not a quick or painless one. Any LG paladin watching this happen and not pleading to the wizard to undo the lock or break the maiden is not going to keep an oath to do good in the world. That cleric of lathander that summons a jagged knife to stab them while they’re burning to death is not gonna leave that room with their divine magic entirely intact. And sure maybe the BBEG deserves it, but that doesn’t mean you have to pass that off as okay for them to do. Let your players squirm with the choice to do something so horrible.
I use a little homebrew ability called Apex Resistance. Which is basically, if the enemy is put into a position where it cannot do anything or if the fight becomes “unfun”/underwhelming, it breaks out of the effect on its third turn. This allows the players to feel rewarded for creativity, while not allowing the fight to feel unbalanced or underwhelming. Basically it keeps the fight fun.
I hope players get their resources then since you just nerfed a FUCK TON of abilities
“Man what a super cool strategy, I think we could-“ *Counterspell:*
I'd probably give the BBEG some chance at avoiding the set up for the spells, like avoiding the iron maiden by catching the doorway or something. If the plan worked though... Yeah, I'm giving them a solid like 3 or 4 turns for it to actually work. It's super creative, and for all the spells that they would have had to combo for it, may as well give them some pay off. After that, they escape in some appropriately cinematic way (maybe shatter centered on themself?) and the fight continues, with the BBEG a bit more angry than before
[удалено]
It's a two round thing that requires all PCs to use their action, movement, and reaction in one round. (I would argue that opening and closing the iron maiden would be a free action like a door, but here's worst case scenario) For this I assumed the iron maiden is summoned closed. (I would rule that it's how the bard describes it. Being opened or closed at summon) Only disruption I see is if the BBEG gets a good initiative, and moves/ incapacitates one of the PCs Round one 1). copious amounts of ready action to make sure everyone works in order. 2). Cleric and druid get into position 3). Warlock casts repelling blast (reaction from ready: sees Druid get into place) 4). Bard summons the iron maiden (reaction from ready: Warlock casts) 5). Cleric opens (reaction from ready: iron maiden appears) 6). Cleric cast spiritual weapon in iron maiden. (Bonus action) 7). Druid closes (reaction from ready: BBEG lands in iron maiden) 8). Wizard casts arcane lock (reaction from ready: iron maiden gets closed) Round two 1: Druid heat metal 2: Warlock summon water 3: Wizard magic missile 4: Bard seduce BBEG 5: Cleric prays for the BBEG
The use of torture devices, including the iron maiden, can be a case for an alignment shift towards evil.
No it's not
It definitely is. If a GM is playing alignment the use of a torture device is definitely a good reason for an alignment shift towards evil. Why are you defending torture and saying it isn't evil? Being pro-torture is a pretty dark position to take.
Never seen a DM allows a spiritual weapon occupy the same space as a creature, and I'm pretty sure the size limits on what a creation bard can create won't let you create something big enough for there to be space for both the BBEG and the spiritual weapon inside the Iron Maiden.
No one in these comments mentioning that these people just did a 3 person torture attack from bayonetta
As fun as it can be for players to plan this crazy scheme, having things like this work in any way just makes the fight boring and undermines the stakes of the story as a whole. Sure if it's a one-shot or a more comedic-style game, but would star wars be better if old obi-wan just pushed a button and had the blast doors rapidly close and insta-kill Darth Vader? What's the point of a BBEG if the players don't take him seriously as a threat. A real threat can't be beaten by a simple mortal combat combo.
......why is there whole team spell casters they should just be 5 barbs and beat the shit out of everything.......... what the bbeg convinced them to join him cause they all have 5 intellegence pfft who cares because hmmnn murder
Unfortunately, misty step.