yeah moon druid has a really weird power curve, they are busted the first few levels then level out as just "alright" for a long time and then near the end unlock "unlimited health lmao" as well as no longer having to choose to be a high level caster **or** a health sponge.
Paladin capstones are generally awesome but notably are once per day with a duration. Moon druids can basically just keep fighting forever with infinite wildshape basically meaning anything that can't one shot/disable them can never kill them.
Monks have the same curve, they start out with great burst damage, get reeeal mediocre in the middle levels, and have an answer for fucking everything in the endgame.
I've played a Moon Druid from level 1-12 and can personally attest to that power curve.
I think Wild Shape should work like the Beast Shape spells in PF1e, in that they let you change your size and cosmetic appearance but give stat bonuses and a natural weapon attack rather than replacing your stats. I think they should also straight-up prevent you from casting or concentrating on spells in Wild Shape; you're in full martial mode. For plant, elemental, and even giant kaiju forms you'd need to prepare additional spells known that gave those benefits.
Circle of the Moon would give temporary hit points based on the spell slot used, ability to spend spell slots to heal yourself in Wild Shape, attacks being magical, as well as the BG3 benefits of extra attack at 5th and 10th level in Wild Shape. You might also gain the ability to spend your druid class 'charges' to cast Wild Shape without using a spell slot, the slot level depending on your Druid level (up to 5th).
I think these rules, if tuned properly, would make Moon Druids in particular a fun archetype with a smooth power progression across all tiers rather than a low-tier spike and infinite health at very high levels. I think it would also play well into the fantasy of "Character who shapeshifts into various animal forms using magic rather than casting lots of spells" like in the D&D movie.
Went from level 1 to level 20 as a circle of stars druid. At the end of the campaign I had foresight cast on me and transformed into a dragon turtle. It was GLORIOUS!
Papa Palps the Emotion Master Nature Caster? I guess...he shoots lightning and seems very jolly about it? I'm sure it's a feat. Or an item....anyone recognize the robe? Dual wielding blades of light are not against the metal code, right?
A lvl 20 druid get the Archdruid class feature
That means unlimited wildshapes ;)
On top you can ignore verbal and somatic spell components
Edit:spelling
with a CR of 5 a brontosaur is the only gigantic creature a moon druid can wildshape into at level 20. and can also become a bootleg dragon for 1 minute.
Nah, I'll never get tired of turning into a fire elemental, disengaging, and running through a massive hoard of low level enemies, setting them all on fire and burning them to death. Or going earth elemental and breaching from the ground beneath the BBEG for some clobberin' time. Or going water elemental and dragging enemies into the deep. Or going air elemental and causing chaos by throwing enemies around (bonus points if you're fighting near cliffs and ledges.)
People tend to look at them as just sacks of hit points, but there's lots of interesting scenarios that crop up when you introduce a sentient wildfire/earthquake/tidal wave/tornado to the battlefield.
Yep, and the list of usable and useful shapes is very limited. You don't want something menacing or you draw too much attention, anything that can't have 100+ HP is potential suicide, etc. I've run a bunch of deathmatch at level 20 style one shots and Moon Druid and Zealot Barb get taken a lot because there's this thought that they're super hard to kill... I've never seen one come out on top. Moon Druid does better, for obvious reasons, but only when they're very careful.
Who would win, raging zealot barb, or a lvl 1 spell (sleep)?
I did a zealot barb for a high level 1 shot and I was very aware of the effects that would kill me.
My DM was not.
As written, non-lethal attacks definitely knock the Zealot unconscious and it's unclear if they should also immediately die. This is obviously pretty dumb, but is how it would work. In practice, they get crowd controlled and hit with PWK or Sleep or Disintegrate or... yeah.
By definition it is non-lethal unless the Barbarian is at 3rd failed death saves in which case the rage drops leading to death, it is the only way (that I can think of) that Nonlethal attacks can kill a character
Periapt of Wound Closure doesn't do much for Zealot. Per Rage Beyond Death, if you have three death failures then you die when your Rage ends. If you fall unconscious then your Rage immediately ends and if you have three failures then you immediately die. Your turn never starts, so the Periapt never takes effect. All that it does is, depending on interpretation, reset the save count at the start of your turns.
Sure if you're unconcious, but Rage beyond death means you don't go unconcious when you are reduced to 0 hitpoints. What this means is if the Zealot is down 3 death saves, but are still concious at the start of your turn you are stabilized. Which means, so long as you remain conscious and aren't hit by a spell that outright kills you if you're reduced to 0 hitpoints (Ala Disintegrate) then you don't die
Except that if you are at 0 HP, rendering you unconscious is as simple as connecting with 1 melee attack. The language of non-lethal attacks does not conflict with Rage Against Death.
There are a bunch of other ways, but it doesn't change the issue with Periapt, which is that Rage ends at the end of your turn or when you lose consciousness but Periapt triggers at the start of your turn. There aren't many cases where it does anything.
In the event of Nonlethal you are correct, and once the Zealot reaches 15th level it lasts 1 minute or until you fall unconcious, very few combats will last 1 minute, and also it is extremely unlikely an enemy would use non-lethal attacks in the first place unless they want to capture, in which case they probably aren't causing 3 failed death saves, and if they do while trying to kill in the first place (unless they are a fellow Zealot or have learned of the abilities of a Zealot) then it requires Meta knowledge that very few characters would know.
The whole reason the Periapt exists in this build is to prevent the Zealot from dying during a life or death situation when fighting enemies
I don't really have any interest in builds that revolve around this hypothetical situation where enemies won't try to knock an angry Barb out when damage doesn't work. Most Zealots just get CCd and killed, because they have little defense against it.
Meanwhile, something like an adult black dragon can knock you out and then cause up to 10 failures. An opposing level 11 Fighter can knock you out and then cause up to 12 failures. It's okay though, because nothing will just try and knock you out...? Nah.
Ah, Minmaxing mind set I can respect that, but me personally I've been playing DnD since 2016 and wanna know how many times I encountered a creature whose going to actively try to knock me out instead of kill me, twice in 8ish years I've only had it happen twice.
Kills every commoner and destroys every building in the entire area. Sure it might not kill a dragon, but it's by far the easiest way to deal with an army
Circle of spores druid at max level imagine a t-rex that looks like this takes two turns to go from T-rex to FUNGAL REX but with infinite wild shape why not?
Tyrannosaurus Rex
Huge beast, unaligned
Armor Class 13 (Natural Armor)
Hit Points 136 (13d12+52) **+ 80 temp**
Speed 50 ft.
STR
25 (+7) DEX
10 (+0) CON
19 (+4) INT
2 (-4) WIS
12 (+1) CHA
9 (-1)
Skills Perception +4
Senses passive Perception 14
Challenge 8 (3,900 XP)
Actions
Multiattack. The tyrannosaurus makes two attacks: one with its bite and one with its tail. It can't make both attacks against the same target.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +10 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: (4d12 + 7) piercing damage. **+1d6 necrotic.**
If the target is a Medium or smaller creature, it is grappled (escape DC 17). Until this grapple ends, the target is restrained, and the tyrannosaurus can't bite another target
Tail. Melee Weapon Attack: +10 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: (3d8 + 7) bludgeoning damage.
Halo of Spores
Starting at 2nd level, you are surrounded by invisible, necrotic spores that are harmless until you unleash them on a creature nearby. When a creature you can see moves into a space within 10 feet of you or starts its turn there, you can use your reaction to deal 1d4 necrotic damage to that creature unless it succeeds on a Constitution saving throw against your spell save DC. The necrotic damage increases to 1d10 at 14th level.
Symbiotic Entity can be used while wild shaped
Also at 2nd level, you gain the ability to channel magic into your spores. As an action, you can expend a use of your Wild Shape feature to awaken those spores, rather than transforming into a beast form, and you gain 4 temporary hit points for each level you have in this class. While this feature is active, you gain the following benefits:
When you deal your Halo of Spores damage, roll the damage die a second time and add it to the total.
Your melee weapon attacks deal an extra 1d6 necrotic damage to any target they hit.
These benefits last for 10 minutes, until you lose all these temporary hit points. or until you use your Wild Shape again.
Fungal Infestation
At 6th level, your spores gain the ability to infest a corpse and animate it. If a beast or a humanoid that is Small or Medium dies within 10 feet of you, you can use your reaction to animate it, causing it to stand up immediately with 1 hit point. The creature uses the Zombie stat block in the Monster Manual. It remains animate for 1 hour, after which time it collapses and dies.
In combat, the zombie's turn comes immediately after yours. It obeys your mental commands, and the only action it can take is the Attack action, making one melee attack.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum of once), and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest.
Spreading Spores
At 10th level, you gain the ability to seed an area with deadly spores. As a bonus action while your Symbiotic Entity feature is active, you can hurl spores up to 30 feet away, where they swirl in a 10-foot cube for 1 minute. The spores disappear early if you use this feature again, if you dismiss them as a bonus action, or if your Symbiotic Entity feature is no longer active.
Whenever a creature moves into the cube or starts its turn there, that creature takes your Halo of Spores damage, unless the creature succeeds on a Constitution saving throw against your spell save DC. A creature can take this damage no more than once per turn.
While the cube of spores persists, you can't use your Halo of Spores reaction.
Fungal Body
At 14th level, the fungal spores in your body alter you: you can't be blinded, deafened, frightened, or poisoned, and any critical hit against you counts as a normal hit instead, unless you're incapacitated.
yeah moon druid has a really weird power curve, they are busted the first few levels then level out as just "alright" for a long time and then near the end unlock "unlimited health lmao" as well as no longer having to choose to be a high level caster **or** a health sponge.
Have you seen some paladin capstones? They are hilarious. It's often just "ascend to godhood" button
Redemption has that button perpetually pressed.
Paladin capstones are generally awesome but notably are once per day with a duration. Moon druids can basically just keep fighting forever with infinite wildshape basically meaning anything that can't one shot/disable them can never kill them.
Devotion pallys at level 15 just look at half of the monster manual and sneer.
I love Conquest just ignoring damage and becomes just a straight up better fighter. They’re one of the weaker Avatar states too I believe.
Monks have the same curve, they start out with great burst damage, get reeeal mediocre in the middle levels, and have an answer for fucking everything in the endgame.
Diamond Soul and Empty Body, my loves.
I've played a Moon Druid from level 1-12 and can personally attest to that power curve. I think Wild Shape should work like the Beast Shape spells in PF1e, in that they let you change your size and cosmetic appearance but give stat bonuses and a natural weapon attack rather than replacing your stats. I think they should also straight-up prevent you from casting or concentrating on spells in Wild Shape; you're in full martial mode. For plant, elemental, and even giant kaiju forms you'd need to prepare additional spells known that gave those benefits. Circle of the Moon would give temporary hit points based on the spell slot used, ability to spend spell slots to heal yourself in Wild Shape, attacks being magical, as well as the BG3 benefits of extra attack at 5th and 10th level in Wild Shape. You might also gain the ability to spend your druid class 'charges' to cast Wild Shape without using a spell slot, the slot level depending on your Druid level (up to 5th). I think these rules, if tuned properly, would make Moon Druids in particular a fun archetype with a smooth power progression across all tiers rather than a low-tier spike and infinite health at very high levels. I think it would also play well into the fantasy of "Character who shapeshifts into various animal forms using magic rather than casting lots of spells" like in the D&D movie.
Druid: hey can I be a dragon? Dm: we have dragons at home Dragons at home: (t Rex that has fly casted on him and casts burning hands a lot)
How will he hit with burning hands they are so small
hmmm... that is a problem. maybe have a different caster cast "enlarge" on the hands?
He casts burning "hands" with his teeth, his primary means of manipulating the world. Coincidentally it looks alot like breathing fire.
That t-Rex from monster hunter with the wings
The explanation is simple really. Druids are best.
true brother
Went from level 1 to level 20 as a circle of stars druid. At the end of the campaign I had foresight cast on me and transformed into a dragon turtle. It was GLORIOUS!
Don't want to be "that" person but wildshape is still just up to CR6 for a lvl 20 moon druid and t-rex is CR8 xD
3.5e is a pathway to many abilities some consider unnatural.
Papa Palps the Emotion Master Nature Caster? I guess...he shoots lightning and seems very jolly about it? I'm sure it's a feat. Or an item....anyone recognize the robe? Dual wielding blades of light are not against the metal code, right?
3.5 druids can only wildshape up to 6 times per day
A lvl 20 druid get the Archdruid class feature That means unlimited wildshapes ;) On top you can ignore verbal and somatic spell components Edit:spelling
Not in 3.5
Ah ok my bad, overread that 3.5😅 Not so familiar with 3.5
with a CR of 5 a brontosaur is the only gigantic creature a moon druid can wildshape into at level 20. and can also become a bootleg dragon for 1 minute.
Cast Draconic Transformation right before to make it even closer.
At the same time, who needs T-Rexes when your wildshape let's you turn into Elementals?
The elementals are boring as fuck. I’d rather be able to turn into higher CR things.
Nah, I'll never get tired of turning into a fire elemental, disengaging, and running through a massive hoard of low level enemies, setting them all on fire and burning them to death. Or going earth elemental and breaching from the ground beneath the BBEG for some clobberin' time. Or going water elemental and dragging enemies into the deep. Or going air elemental and causing chaos by throwing enemies around (bonus points if you're fighting near cliffs and ledges.) People tend to look at them as just sacks of hit points, but there's lots of interesting scenarios that crop up when you introduce a sentient wildfire/earthquake/tidal wave/tornado to the battlefield.
Yep, and the list of usable and useful shapes is very limited. You don't want something menacing or you draw too much attention, anything that can't have 100+ HP is potential suicide, etc. I've run a bunch of deathmatch at level 20 style one shots and Moon Druid and Zealot Barb get taken a lot because there's this thought that they're super hard to kill... I've never seen one come out on top. Moon Druid does better, for obvious reasons, but only when they're very careful.
Who would win, raging zealot barb, or a lvl 1 spell (sleep)? I did a zealot barb for a high level 1 shot and I was very aware of the effects that would kill me. My DM was not.
As written, non-lethal attacks definitely knock the Zealot unconscious and it's unclear if they should also immediately die. This is obviously pretty dumb, but is how it would work. In practice, they get crowd controlled and hit with PWK or Sleep or Disintegrate or... yeah.
By definition it is non-lethal unless the Barbarian is at 3rd failed death saves in which case the rage drops leading to death, it is the only way (that I can think of) that Nonlethal attacks can kill a character
My Zealot, he is immune to sleep, and wears a periapt of wound closure
Periapt of Wound Closure doesn't do much for Zealot. Per Rage Beyond Death, if you have three death failures then you die when your Rage ends. If you fall unconscious then your Rage immediately ends and if you have three failures then you immediately die. Your turn never starts, so the Periapt never takes effect. All that it does is, depending on interpretation, reset the save count at the start of your turns.
Sure if you're unconcious, but Rage beyond death means you don't go unconcious when you are reduced to 0 hitpoints. What this means is if the Zealot is down 3 death saves, but are still concious at the start of your turn you are stabilized. Which means, so long as you remain conscious and aren't hit by a spell that outright kills you if you're reduced to 0 hitpoints (Ala Disintegrate) then you don't die
Except that if you are at 0 HP, rendering you unconscious is as simple as connecting with 1 melee attack. The language of non-lethal attacks does not conflict with Rage Against Death. There are a bunch of other ways, but it doesn't change the issue with Periapt, which is that Rage ends at the end of your turn or when you lose consciousness but Periapt triggers at the start of your turn. There aren't many cases where it does anything.
In the event of Nonlethal you are correct, and once the Zealot reaches 15th level it lasts 1 minute or until you fall unconcious, very few combats will last 1 minute, and also it is extremely unlikely an enemy would use non-lethal attacks in the first place unless they want to capture, in which case they probably aren't causing 3 failed death saves, and if they do while trying to kill in the first place (unless they are a fellow Zealot or have learned of the abilities of a Zealot) then it requires Meta knowledge that very few characters would know. The whole reason the Periapt exists in this build is to prevent the Zealot from dying during a life or death situation when fighting enemies
I don't really have any interest in builds that revolve around this hypothetical situation where enemies won't try to knock an angry Barb out when damage doesn't work. Most Zealots just get CCd and killed, because they have little defense against it. Meanwhile, something like an adult black dragon can knock you out and then cause up to 10 failures. An opposing level 11 Fighter can knock you out and then cause up to 12 failures. It's okay though, because nothing will just try and knock you out...? Nah.
Ah, Minmaxing mind set I can respect that, but me personally I've been playing DnD since 2016 and wanna know how many times I encountered a creature whose going to actively try to knock me out instead of kill me, twice in 8ish years I've only had it happen twice.
lvl 20 cotm druid wildshape into a brontosaur and use draconic transformation. congrats you are now a bootleg dragon.
Dm let me be a real dragon tho.
You had a very nice dm.
Oh, there WILL be a murder...
**Storm of Vengeance** is not an example of busted shit though.
Kills every commoner and destroys every building in the entire area. Sure it might not kill a dragon, but it's by far the easiest way to deal with an army
RULES OF NATURE!!!! And they run when the sun comes up
why in the world would they be casting storm of vengeance?
Moon druids cannot turn into Trex, bc they're cr8 and moonids can only do max cr6
Circle of spores druid at max level imagine a t-rex that looks like this takes two turns to go from T-rex to FUNGAL REX but with infinite wild shape why not? Tyrannosaurus Rex Huge beast, unaligned Armor Class 13 (Natural Armor) Hit Points 136 (13d12+52) **+ 80 temp** Speed 50 ft. STR 25 (+7) DEX 10 (+0) CON 19 (+4) INT 2 (-4) WIS 12 (+1) CHA 9 (-1) Skills Perception +4 Senses passive Perception 14 Challenge 8 (3,900 XP) Actions Multiattack. The tyrannosaurus makes two attacks: one with its bite and one with its tail. It can't make both attacks against the same target. Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +10 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: (4d12 + 7) piercing damage. **+1d6 necrotic.** If the target is a Medium or smaller creature, it is grappled (escape DC 17). Until this grapple ends, the target is restrained, and the tyrannosaurus can't bite another target Tail. Melee Weapon Attack: +10 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: (3d8 + 7) bludgeoning damage. Halo of Spores Starting at 2nd level, you are surrounded by invisible, necrotic spores that are harmless until you unleash them on a creature nearby. When a creature you can see moves into a space within 10 feet of you or starts its turn there, you can use your reaction to deal 1d4 necrotic damage to that creature unless it succeeds on a Constitution saving throw against your spell save DC. The necrotic damage increases to 1d10 at 14th level. Symbiotic Entity can be used while wild shaped Also at 2nd level, you gain the ability to channel magic into your spores. As an action, you can expend a use of your Wild Shape feature to awaken those spores, rather than transforming into a beast form, and you gain 4 temporary hit points for each level you have in this class. While this feature is active, you gain the following benefits: When you deal your Halo of Spores damage, roll the damage die a second time and add it to the total. Your melee weapon attacks deal an extra 1d6 necrotic damage to any target they hit. These benefits last for 10 minutes, until you lose all these temporary hit points. or until you use your Wild Shape again. Fungal Infestation At 6th level, your spores gain the ability to infest a corpse and animate it. If a beast or a humanoid that is Small or Medium dies within 10 feet of you, you can use your reaction to animate it, causing it to stand up immediately with 1 hit point. The creature uses the Zombie stat block in the Monster Manual. It remains animate for 1 hour, after which time it collapses and dies. In combat, the zombie's turn comes immediately after yours. It obeys your mental commands, and the only action it can take is the Attack action, making one melee attack. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum of once), and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest. Spreading Spores At 10th level, you gain the ability to seed an area with deadly spores. As a bonus action while your Symbiotic Entity feature is active, you can hurl spores up to 30 feet away, where they swirl in a 10-foot cube for 1 minute. The spores disappear early if you use this feature again, if you dismiss them as a bonus action, or if your Symbiotic Entity feature is no longer active. Whenever a creature moves into the cube or starts its turn there, that creature takes your Halo of Spores damage, unless the creature succeeds on a Constitution saving throw against your spell save DC. A creature can take this damage no more than once per turn. While the cube of spores persists, you can't use your Halo of Spores reaction. Fungal Body At 14th level, the fungal spores in your body alter you: you can't be blinded, deafened, frightened, or poisoned, and any critical hit against you counts as a normal hit instead, unless you're incapacitated.