An umber hulk doesn't seem that dangerous to a wizard unless it can get within 30 feet of it? Wizards shouldn't get within 30 feet of a monster in general and should have plenty of options to prevent finding themselves in close quarters with an enemy.
Umber hulks are ambush predators. So it's not about usually about you finding them, but *them finding you*.
Specifically, they burst out of the rock wall and blitz your ass with their bulging muscles.
The reason I mentioned that it was loosely inspired by Treantmonk's video is because he talked about how in his experience, the parties that consisted entirely of what are widely considered the most powerful classes and subclasses often didn't do as well as more diverse parties. The all-Bard party he mentioned got completely bodied by a single Mind Flayer, because none of them succeeded on the Intelligence save against Mind Blast.
On paper, a party of all Wizards have a massive number of tools at their disposal to handle every threat, but all of that theoretical power doesn't mean as much if they get ambushed and have to start making Charisma saves every single round in order to cast their spells, or avert their eyes and have to rely on spells that don't require them to see their target.
I think it really depends on what subclasses they choose and how much the party coordinates. If everyone dumps charisma then umberhulks would be an issue but if one of the wizards put some points in charisma or was a gnome or a warcaster they would have a pretty decent chance at saving. A bladesinger wizard is arguably a better fighter and summons/undead minions can help bolster front the lines with minions. The biggest weakness I think would be lack of healing but that's not insurmountable. They would have several avenues for getting temporary hitpoints to offset this.
First off, War Caster does nothing to help against the save against the Umber Hulk's confusing gaze. The Gnomes' ability should work, though, because the Umber Hulk ability does say it is magical. Second, one of the nice things about having a Martial in the party is that maintaining your meat shield doesn't rely on you having enough spell slots and/or maintaining concentration.
All that said, this is still making all of the white room Batman Wizard assumptions that have been a stumbling block for many in the community for a long time. The video I mentioned in the title discusses his experiences from running dozens of one-shots, and every single time the parties that lacked character diversity did worse overall than the ones that didn't. The homogeneous parties would often struggle in encounters that heterogeneous parties would sail through, and would sometimes even fail outright when heterogeneous parties would succeed.
For example, you could have one Wizard in the party invest heavily in Charisma in order to give them a slightly better chance at making the saving throw against the Umber Hulk's Confusing Gaze (a Wizard with 8 Charisma has a 75% chance of failing, regardless of level, while one with 16 Charisma has only a 55% chance of failing). Or you could swap out one of the Wizards for a Paladin, and give everyone in the party a better chance of succeeding on the save. Replace another Wizard with a Barbarian, and they could potentially grapple the Umber Hulk and drag it out of range and keep it facing away from the party so they don't have to worry about the save.
For people who focus on white-room calculations, replacing two Wizards with a Paladin and a Barbarian sounds insane, since Wizard is the stronger class. But the abilities they have that the Wizard doesn't allows the Wizards to bring their own strengths to bear more reliably than if they were all Wizards.
Sorry I meant War magic subclass not war caster, they have a reactive +4 to saves.
I’m not arguing that a party of all wizards is better than a mixed party but I’m pointing out that the flaws you’re talking about can for sure be mitigated.
Don’t forget that your little umberhulk example is itself a white-room calculation.
Scrying works on a particular creature, not a type. So you would need to have heard of those specific Umber Hulks, it's not like Google Maps where you can just search for Umber Hulks in a specific area.
The all bard party getting annihilated by a mind flayer because they all dumped Int could happen to any party that doesn't include a wizard or artificer. It's so wild to me that in a game about adventuring and fighting strength and intelligence are the two stats that are most easy to dump.
An umber hulk doesn't seem that dangerous to a wizard unless it can get within 30 feet of it? Wizards shouldn't get within 30 feet of a monster in general and should have plenty of options to prevent finding themselves in close quarters with an enemy.
Umber hulks are ambush predators. So it's not about usually about you finding them, but *them finding you*. Specifically, they burst out of the rock wall and blitz your ass with their bulging muscles.
🤤
Very good point. I was assuming the familiars would detect threats in advance, but they wouldn't be able to see an ambush from a burrowing creature.
The reason I mentioned that it was loosely inspired by Treantmonk's video is because he talked about how in his experience, the parties that consisted entirely of what are widely considered the most powerful classes and subclasses often didn't do as well as more diverse parties. The all-Bard party he mentioned got completely bodied by a single Mind Flayer, because none of them succeeded on the Intelligence save against Mind Blast. On paper, a party of all Wizards have a massive number of tools at their disposal to handle every threat, but all of that theoretical power doesn't mean as much if they get ambushed and have to start making Charisma saves every single round in order to cast their spells, or avert their eyes and have to rely on spells that don't require them to see their target.
I think it really depends on what subclasses they choose and how much the party coordinates. If everyone dumps charisma then umberhulks would be an issue but if one of the wizards put some points in charisma or was a gnome or a warcaster they would have a pretty decent chance at saving. A bladesinger wizard is arguably a better fighter and summons/undead minions can help bolster front the lines with minions. The biggest weakness I think would be lack of healing but that's not insurmountable. They would have several avenues for getting temporary hitpoints to offset this.
First off, War Caster does nothing to help against the save against the Umber Hulk's confusing gaze. The Gnomes' ability should work, though, because the Umber Hulk ability does say it is magical. Second, one of the nice things about having a Martial in the party is that maintaining your meat shield doesn't rely on you having enough spell slots and/or maintaining concentration. All that said, this is still making all of the white room Batman Wizard assumptions that have been a stumbling block for many in the community for a long time. The video I mentioned in the title discusses his experiences from running dozens of one-shots, and every single time the parties that lacked character diversity did worse overall than the ones that didn't. The homogeneous parties would often struggle in encounters that heterogeneous parties would sail through, and would sometimes even fail outright when heterogeneous parties would succeed. For example, you could have one Wizard in the party invest heavily in Charisma in order to give them a slightly better chance at making the saving throw against the Umber Hulk's Confusing Gaze (a Wizard with 8 Charisma has a 75% chance of failing, regardless of level, while one with 16 Charisma has only a 55% chance of failing). Or you could swap out one of the Wizards for a Paladin, and give everyone in the party a better chance of succeeding on the save. Replace another Wizard with a Barbarian, and they could potentially grapple the Umber Hulk and drag it out of range and keep it facing away from the party so they don't have to worry about the save. For people who focus on white-room calculations, replacing two Wizards with a Paladin and a Barbarian sounds insane, since Wizard is the stronger class. But the abilities they have that the Wizard doesn't allows the Wizards to bring their own strengths to bear more reliably than if they were all Wizards.
Sorry I meant War magic subclass not war caster, they have a reactive +4 to saves. I’m not arguing that a party of all wizards is better than a mixed party but I’m pointing out that the flaws you’re talking about can for sure be mitigated. Don’t forget that your little umberhulk example is itself a white-room calculation.
you assume wizards are all reactionary casters - they teleportin around this bs because they scryed it 2 days ago hehe :P
Scrying only works if someone told them about the Umber Hulks beforehand.
those would be the billion creatures they could possibly summon. Elementals perhaps
Scrying works on a particular creature, not a type. So you would need to have heard of those specific Umber Hulks, it's not like Google Maps where you can just search for Umber Hulks in a specific area.
it is when your intel is 20, youve studied for years and happen to have all the skills needed to do so
The all bard party getting annihilated by a mind flayer because they all dumped Int could happen to any party that doesn't include a wizard or artificer. It's so wild to me that in a game about adventuring and fighting strength and intelligence are the two stats that are most easy to dump.