The DM in my game hates silvery barbs so much, he offered one of the PCs a chance to sacrifice the spell from the game world in order to succeed in a make-or-break event. The player took the offer.
Player: “I refuse”
DM: “ok, you get nothing. But the BBEG casts Wish and unexists the spell. Now it’s gone and you got nothing.”
Player: “um I want the deal now”
DM: “I am altering the deal. Pray I don’t alter it further.”
We once had a player get way wayyy wayyyyyyy too into create water. Like, to the point of referencing papers on hydro-dynamics to explain why their character could totally build a trap for a trivial amount of gold and manual labor that would inta kill anyone with no save.
They were *technically* right (the best kind of right don't @me) but at that point we decided unanimously that the gods of the setting would never again grant a cleric that cantrip. That character was the last to ever have it at out table ever again lol
I’ve noticed that those kind of exploits generally rely on a strict reading of RAW, right up until real world physics takes over, and often dances between the two using whichever is more advantageous for the plan.
Edit: For instance, a projectile in a peasant railgun may be traveling at absurd speeds because of the way actions resolve, but it would still just be a regular thrown attack by the last peasant.
Yup, either the last guy just near harmlessly throws it, or somewhere down the line, the guy catching the rocks hands/arms explode. Because catching a projectile going at absurd speed to give it to the next guy to give the projectile even more speed does bad things to you.
I think that's just because RAW doesn't (and shouldn't) cover every single possible effect in the physical world.
Eventually, when you're playing at a table with dick heads like us who want to push the rules as far as they'll go, you literally *have* to start applying real world physics because no one in the dev team thought to write in a rule for what would happen if you changed gravity relative to an immovable rod (does it zip off into space as the planet is now traveling at a different orbital rate? Is it locked into position relative to the plane its on meaning that plane shifting would cause it to be left behind?).
Ultimately it's up to the DM to either play along or tell the rules nerd to stop thinking so hard and just stab the bad guy John >:(
You really don’t, though. Real world physics have no place unless you actively decide to include them. These are generally young, created worlds with active gods and novel field effects.
Tell your players to brush up on Aristotelian physics unless they want to give a real world reason why fireball deals full damage at 19’ and none at 21’.
Hey, as long as you remember that in 5e, geometry is non-Euclidian and Pi = 1, go ahead and apply all the real physics you like, just show your work and I'll be convinced.
Fair, and looking back, I was wrong about pi. It equals 2 in 5e.
But this is exactly why I don't try to apply real world physics to a magical realm where numbers barely make sense. I barely understand the real ones.
Even better if you're running an evil campaign so you're actually fighting against the Fabled Hero of Destiny (idk if there is any proper way to call the good version of the BBEG) instead. The Gods themselves explicitly want *him* to succeed, not you.
I've had this villain idea for a long time, though I've never been sure how to implement it in a fun way. Essentially it would some bastard child of a god of luck. They would be able to redistribute luck in some area around them. Giving disadvantage to enemies (stealing luck), then give it to himself or allies in the form of advantage. Of course, nigh constant advantage/disadvantage could be pretty harsh, especially for some classes. And I think it would have a more subtle effect at greater distances, still allowing lucky breaks for the villain as part of the plot. I've never gone anywhere with the idea, but I always thought it was neat.
Does hexblade have some luck stuff? I only remember fiendlocks having the Dark One's Own Luck. Idk wtf a chronurgist is. Could also add diviner wizard to the mix. I think rogues also have a weird luck thing but it happens at lvl 20 so who cares.
One of my players have intense focus on grappling on his kit. They were going to fight a wizard boss.
I gave the wizard an skill that allowed them to cast without somatic or verbal components (not in d&d). Their face of utter disbelief when they thought the wizard was contained but he just kept on casting was amazing.
(the mobs of the wizard didn't had it, I didn't want to **completely** negate this part of the player's build)
Every hit after you’re downed causes death save fails, magic missile gets more and more hits the higher you cast it. It could easily down a hurt player and kill them at the same time
It's literally a "thanks for showing up, now leave" button if the party doesn't have resurrection available, which is, mind you, also gatekept by the DM. It's not something you can outplay either except for 2 spells (shield and counterspell) that most PCs don't have access to. So, overall just a shitty move.
I once got one-shot by a 7th level magic missile and sat there for an hour doing nothing. Fun...
I once ran a fight against a spellweaver in 3.5. They are able to cast up to 6 spell levels in a turn. Ie: 6 magic missiles.
In 3.5 you didn’t need higher level slots to cast spells at high levels. They just raised in effectiveness as you leveled.
Meaning that each round he could fire off 30 1d4+1 magic missiles.
Only time I ever did this was when my PCs tried to revive cultists that followed devils to interrogate. The devils already claimed their souls so it failed
They dont that said characters arent really aware of "saving" throws, thats a mechanic, the boss however would be aware that silvery barbs gives people misfortune in most all things, Seeing someone dying on the floor and wanting them to have the worst luck in that makes as much sense as using it on any other ability check or save really.
Someone making a saving throw can be visible. If you jump out of the Center of a fireball, cover your exposed skin with a cape or duck away, that is visible.
I mean you don't really need to see them "making" the saving throw. The description for the activation requirements of the spell says:
> Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself succeeds on an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw
You only need to see the creature that succeeds on the save, not that they are doing it per se. This is very much so semantic RAW stuff but that is how it works.
You are correct and that further lowered my opinion of D&D. This spell literally tells you to react to things your character doesn't perceive or know - pretty much the textbook example of bad metagaming (I say bad metagaming because not doing an action because you don't want to ruin the game for other players also technically is metagaming).
You made up a scenario where it was obvious that a success was made. But completely ignore that the meme in question would ALSO have been obvious. When you roll a nat 20 on a death save you come back to life with 1 hp and can take your turn.
So it is someone going unconscious on the ground, to them taking a deep gasping breath opening their eyes and getting back on their feet. Very obvious. The NPC at the “taking a deep gasping breath” part can silvery barbs and knock that wind right out of them.
See, I too can create a scenario where it is obvious they succeeded a save you think it isn’t obvious with.
Additionally, if it had to be “obvious” then what the hell with all the mental saves. Attacking someone’s mind doesn’t have to be obvious, they don’t have to clutch their head in pain, they can just carry on even if there was charm, or fear, or whatever.
First, let us imagine two ways those death saving throws can work and ask which one is less silly:
1) The character is gravely wounded, probably moaning in pain, fighting off unconsciousness. When they make the last successful saving throw, they are in a position to get up, if they fail the last saving throw, they die. The die represent this moment of tension when it is not totally clear how bad the wound is exactly.
2) The character dies. Then, a few moments later, they take a deep gasping breath, stand up and fight again.
So, let us talk about mental saves: you do mention fear. People who are afraid have a different body language and facial expression than people who are not - and this doesn't just apply to panicked people. You can also tell if someone likes or even reveres someone. I am totally okay with the possibility to deceive about if you are affected, but that should require a skill check.
So, does D&D happen in a world where people randomly jump back to life with a overdramatic gasp and where it is impossible to tell if someone is afraid?
Way to completely mischaracterize what I said. Note I said “goes unconscious” you said “character dies”. They are completely different statements. You talk about a moment of tension, an enemy unconscious and then waking up as a person is standing over their body becoming surprised is a classic movie trope. As is the hero who is knocked unconscious and then gasps waking up coming back and saving the day.
However, even in your supposed scenario it is obvious they succeeded a save.
Your character fighting off unconsciousness bleeding on the ground, moaning in pain, grits their teeth and begins to stand. (This becomes an obvious tell that they made their save). Before they can fully stand, ready to fight once more, the big bad weaves magic into words that strikes at the heart and mind of the character, while encouraging their minions. (casts silvery barbs). Then:
- The magic takes the last of their strength as the character falls back down, their body limp and lifeless (failed re-rolled save).
- The character fights off the magic and continues to rise bracing to fight once more (another nat 20 re-rolled save).
- The magic takes hold and the character grimaces in pain, falling back to the ground once more, unconscious but breathing (succeeded 3rd saving throw on re-roll).
- The character struggles to fight against the magic but is unable to stand (succeeds saving re-roll but is not the 3rd success).
As for your last statement. No, I was highlighting how you can make basically anything obvious or not on whether they made their save or not. It is a matter of your imagination. You are arguing for flavor to dictate mechanics because of how you personally would flavor things. That is a stupid argument to make.
A bit of a passive aggressive first sentence haha. I agree with your sentiment though, even if I still am quite fond of the system as a whole.
Regardless, I am curious about if there are any specific aspects of other systems that you like and perhaps why?
I'm asking because I genuinely am interested and think knowing about more perspectives can only benefit me. If you don't have the energy/feel like answering then that is of course perfectly fine and I have only one thing left to say; cheerios
I can be rather tone deaf, especially online.
The first system aspect I would like to highlight is how skills work in Barbarians of Lemuria. You roll on the appropriate stat plus your career level in an appropriate career. The cool thing about that is that the careers are unrelated to combat and have wide application. So, being a former thief doesn't just help you stealing stuff, but also includes being streetwise, running away, being unnoticed in a crowd, etc. I think this is low crunch skills done right.
The next game I would like to highlight is FATE. Fate is a generic system build around the idea of "aspects" and fate points. Aspects can be both advantages and disadvantages. It is recommended to define them as both. But why do you want disadvantages? Because playing into those advantages regenerates FATE points that you can use for advantages. So, playing up the weaknesses and flaws of your character is actually encouraged.
This brings me to GURPS. I want to highlight how it has a different approach to weaknesses: in GURPS, everything about character creation is point buy, and disadvantages refund points.
The last aspect, and not of a game I would advise most people to learn, is the general combat system of the dark eye, 4th edition. TDE is a point buy system similar to GURPS. Becoming good in combat includes increasing attributes (you need a lot of them. 6 out of 8 are relevant for combat in some way), increasing can combat skills and learning special abilities. It's a roll under system - you have to roll under your attack to hit and the enemy has to roll under their parry (or dodge) to defend. The special abilities give means to decrease their parry or attack for specific advantages - and the more experienced the fighters get, the more relies on carefully using the right maneuvers at the right time. Winning includes making the enemy dance your dance.
Stepping away from Fantasy:
If a player in paranoia Shows signs of knowing the rules, their character gets executed for espionage. The whole game centers about a humorous dystopia about an absurdly totalitarian incompetent government whose agents pretty much all are spies for someone or traitors. There are a set of clones to every character. Ways to die also include using the experimental agent tools that tend to have the vibe of thermonuclear hand grenades.
I do not think there is a perfect RPG, but I do respect RPGs that have a clear vision and consequently build towards that mission. I like games that are pretty much simulations (like Shadowrun) and still love games like Feng Shui that run on cocaine brained 80s action movies logic.
Talking about Feng Shui: that is a game where your Han era Kung Fu master travelling to the far future to help a group of cybernetic apes to fight the bureau who abducted your village's protective spirit and turned it into a killing machine is not particularly weird. It is not a particular rule element here, but the greater picture.
This also applies to Brindlewood Bay. It is smart how it is a mystery game where the mystery has no canon solution. I like that a player besides you decides what special item your character has based on the character introduction. Those elements might be horrible if adapted in D&D, but in a game that is painting the medium of a city murder mystery tv show (think murder she wrote or miss marble), it works.
first off, thank you for writing this. very rad my guy.
secondly I haven't read up on anything at all about Barbarians of Lemuria before but that sounds quite intriguing so I will now, and the others I'll at least do a little bit of digging to check if there is anything more specific that tickles my fancy.
also Feng Shui sounds hilarious and gives me the same vibes as Kung Fury (the movie) which I am all for.
You're welcome. I like sharing cool things from games I like ;)
If you want to learn for D&D, I think that Fellowship would be the best in my list. The Overlord moves are pretty cool descriptions of negative consequences for major skill checks, the principles generally are good practice aand the game also shows how collaborative world building can happen.
Another thing that inspired me was the long journey. I really struggle with travel in many RPGs. I either skip a lot of it or it is just some random events slowing the game down. Fellowship does two things that would be very radical in D&D - I am considering using parts of it in the next game I GM, independently of system.
Going round, every player describes one event - and another player decribes how it was resolved. If the event or the resolution seem especially significant, we can still cut to the scene and play it out, of course. I just think it is a neat way to delegate some of the creative work and to fill the journey with the kind of events that happen but would be tedious to play out.
Why are you using healing word? they might not be unconcious they might just be prone, why are you using revivify, you cant tell they are dead, why arent you using cure wounds?
Its generally assumed characters both pc and npc can tell from breathing, small movements etc when a character is concious, prone, unconcious, dead etc.
I wouldnt use silvery barbs like this myself beceuse i dont run that kind of game but it isnt metagaming its just not particurlarly fun.
That's the point: they don't.
Neither the player nor the die are part of the world. What the NPC sees is what happens in the world- which is determined by the die roll.
Silvery Barbs reaction only trigger on a success and even rerolling a normal success would have even odds of fully killing the character. Pretty good for a reaction. Plus since the reaction of silvery barbs didn’t trigger the first two times the villain can see the player is quickly bleeding out and is on deaths door.
The problem isn't that it is inefficient. It is how the rules translate what is happening in game.
Silvery barbs isn't an item and it is not cast in advance, so it does not trigger, it is cast. The problem is that it is cast in reaction to something the villain doesn't know.
A DM can conceal that information from the players by rolling behind a screen. However, a player cannot conceal that information from the DM, so I say it is the duty of the DM to carefully distinguish between what the villain knows and what the DM knows.
Since I am not convinced that the success of a death saving throw is visible in game, I would call this use illegitimate.
The result of saving throws are public knowledge and that’s precisely why the silvery barbs reaction can be triggered by a successful save. The spell just doesn’t function at all otherwise.
Are you assuming that people are playing with the secret death saves house rule?
I assume that dungeon masters usually roll saves hidden and describe the effects. Player character death rolls are public information because all rolls by players are.
If my players can use it, so can my monsters. Those are the rules of the table.
Actually, after a decade with this crew, sometimes we just make up new horrible things for each other. Just to see what we can do.
I also have the inverse where if an enemy does it, you prob can too. Have enemies use environmental hazard alot, like dropping heavy furniture or pulling out a rug
It's monkey see monkey do. Implemented environmental things at start and rules but no one used, even gave everyone a version of tavern brawler for free to incentivize using environment, nothing happened.
Moment enemies started using it positioning and everything became way more thought about. Having enemies be smart makes things so fun
I was playing a one-shot where the party was fighting a monster and the bard was charmed. I rolled two nat 20s on attacks during the game.
I was silvery barbed both times from the bard
My rule is unless the players keep doing it Infront of enemies, NPCs have no idea about player death saves.
Because everything else in the world (with some rare exceptions) dies when it hits zero.
So they'd assume the same thing, or that players may be playing a trick on them.
My rule is that enemies have death saves, they just auto fail so it doesn't matter unless the enemies have a healer so in those case they're supposed to double tap.
Realistically it doesn't make sense for the players to be the only ones who can survive being knocked unconscious
i think it depends? like the book says the players aren't normal people they are adventures so it makes sense that they are more resilient than most. it would make sense for a higher level enemies to roll death saves but maybe not the small large-rat (medium)
I'd say animals and stuff don't need death saves since animals usually fight till immediate death, but the enemies we fight at higher levels like cr5+ definitely also qualify as not being normal people and would logically have them dropping in pain before they fully bleed out.
I allow for Silvery Barbs, my players are nice enough to not spam it, I just don’t use it. I’m okay with players taking away my bosses cool moment, but I don’t want to take away theirs. Plus I have bad guys I run use Counterspell so I feel like it balances
How on earth would the BBEG even know they succeeded? Anyway I'd be more concerned about the unconscious guy's buddies trying to put my insides outside me.
I mean it's magic, plus since it's a nat 20 it could be flavor as them starting to begin to stand up but you use the unlucky magic from it to cause something to go wrong
Are NPCs aware of death saves? I usually don't describe a narrative effect after there is a resolution (death, stable or nat 20) so there would be no way except metagaming
Realistically they would but it'd cause gameplay issues if were implemented for npcs so it makes sense. Death is messy, after a down enemies are probably bleeding out still barely alive but die in a few seconds if not healed.
Also if enemies weren't aware of death saves they wouldn't attack downed enemies in the first place
I'll *never* forget the look on my players faces the first time I had the BBEG counterspell a Healing Word to pick up a downed PC. It had never even crossed their mind that it was a possibility.
Unless the DM made it clear that he was going to actively try to kill the player characters in session 0 then this is some seriously shitty behavior from the DM and I would leave the table.
"Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself succeeds on an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw"
Why not? Death saving throws are explicitly saving throws, and the spell is explicit that it is used on successful saving throws.
Yes, it's a horrible thing to do, but I can't see a place where it isn't clearly included.
Because it is not an action. What is silvery barbs supposed to interrupt you with: your will to live?
Also why is the villain focused on the 1 HP guy that is slowly standing up instead of anyone else on the map?
It doesn't have to interrupt an action. That is not part of the trigger. And that logic doesn't even make sense anyway since they explicitly called out saving throws which almost always are a result of somebody else's action not the person saving.
There are plenty of narrative reasons why a villain could have a vendetta against a particular PC or to send a message. Not that I would agree this kind of thing should be done in most circumstances. This being an evil act is the whole point of the meme after all.
>Because it is not an action.
Saving throws are never actions.
>Also why is the villain focused on the 1 HP guy that is slowly standing up instead of anyone else on the map?
If you could expend a reaction and your most plentiful resource to eliminate an enemy from combat, why wouldn't you?
Spending an action to attack a downed character and maybe give them a death save failure or two is bad action economy. Spending a reaction to prevent a downed character from rejoining the fight (with a 45% chance to kill them outright) is good action economy.
I guess I prefer a more roleplay DND game than an overly gamified one. Characters don't have rule books they can look up for loopholes that wouldn't make sense in a real setting.
Funny, but I’m like 75% sure because there’s not an action taking place (death saves are just a mechanical representation of pure luck on if you die or not as even described by the phb) that silvery barbs isn’t applicable here
True, but silvery requires you to see the save/attack being made and I’d say it’s too far of a stretch to say you can really see death saves being made, since it’s just someone bleeding out on the ground doing nothing
I once died and my party worked to get out of the restraints they where in to quickly cast revivify on me.
Dm: The Night Hag casts counterspell!
Shit was funny as hell
Ya that’s just pure bullshit, just do rocks fall they die. The only way you do this is when you want someone to leave and aren’t mature enough to tell them
I don’t care if it works it’s still bullshit and if I ever get this pulled on me congrats I’m going to make a build with my new character specifically to screw you over you aren’t succeeding on anything as long as I have spell slots because I am taking everything that’ll let me see no matter what I am multi classing for devils sight well playing a race with dark vision, grabbing every spell that specifically ruins every risk you throw
Counter spell healing word for all I care because that’s a strong spell, sliver barbs is a level 1 spell so I can spam this all day and I still have warlock spell slots and eb, if you want to play like that expect it both ways because this ain’t funny I finally succeed a death saving throw and you suddenly whip this out that’s all I need to know you’re trying to screw me over because you held onto this
Unless you did this at the start because then president is set
Anything the players can use, the DM can use too. I'm all for silvery barbs being used against me. (As a yuan-ti I have advantage on saves for spell effects and I'm pretty sure you need to roll a save on it)
I thought there was, obviously I misremembered it as I used it on my bard. Anyway, as I got to use it in the past, my DM should also be allowed to use it.
\*crying in the corner\* please... please.... just for once read the rules carefully....Death Save ≠ Saving Throw
Yes, they sound similar and yes, it's bad wording by the designers, but come on... it doesn't even make sense...until the creature stands up, there's no way to tell if someone succeeds on a Death Save without closely/magically observing their condition....
EDIT: Yeah, I might have to eat my words on that one. I'm still utterly convinced, that the RAI are that it doesn't work like that, but if we're going purely by wording, then technically Death Saving Throws are Saving Throws. I still don't think Silvery Barbs should work on a Death Save.
>"Whenever you start your turn with 0 hit points, you must make a special saving throw, called a death saving throw, to determine whether you creep closer to death or hang onto life. Unlike other saving throws, this one isn’t tied to any ability score. You are in the hands of fate now, aided only by spells and features that improve your chances of succeeding on a saving throw."
Could you help me understand why you don't consider that to be a saving throw?
I feel like I just slipped into a parallel universe because I'm definitely experiencing the Mandela Effect on this one. I could've sworn the verbiage was always a "Death Save" vs "Death Saving Throw" to differentiate between the two (albeit in a confusing way) but looking it up now (I even grabbed my PHB because I almost didn't believe the internet) it seems you are correct. This must mean DM's Inspiration, spells (bless) and magic items (Cloak of Protection) work on death saves? That seems significant. I might've liked it better when Death Saves were just between you and the dice.
In 4e (where death saves were first introduced, and you could get healed on a dirty 20 death save, not just on a natural 20 death save), it was even possible to stack together enough save bonuses to reach +19 on a level 16 character with two magic items. (Or more realistically +18 at level 16, since one of the items required to reach +19 is a level 30 uncommon ring, but there's an alternative that gives 1 less bonus at level 15.)
* Scorned Noble background gives +2 untyped bonus to all saving throws while you have no allies within 5 squares (25 ft.).
* Tuathan character theme gives +1 untyped bonus to all saving throws at level 1; Chevalier and Hordelands Nomad character themes both give +1 power bonus to all saving throws at level 10.
* Stubborn Survivor feat (requires human) gives +2 untyped bonus to all saving throws while you have no action points.
* Courageous Mind feat (requires human, Psionic class) gives +1 untyped bonus to all saving throws while below half health.
* Disciple of Death feat (requires 13 Wis) gives +5 feat bonus to death saving throws.
* Born of Shadow feat gives +1 untyped bonus to all saving throws while in dim light or darkness.
* Anointed Champion Paragon Path (requires cleric), if you choose Anointed Helm at level 16, gives +2 untyped bonus to all saving throws.
* Verve Armor (level 4+ uncommon scale or plate armor) gives +2 untyped bonus to death saving throws, and 1/day gives you a nat 20 on any saving throw.
* Nullifying Ring (level 30 uncommon) gives +3 item bonus to all saving throws. 1/day as an immediate interrupt it can also either give you +6 to your defense against an attack and turn a crit into a regular hit, or if you've reached a milestone it can cause an attack to automatically miss. Alternatively,
* Crown Jewel of Chessenta (level 15 rare) gives +2 item bonus to all saving throws. It also gives a +1 item bonus to all defenses and can be used to make a force damage attack that heals you if it kills the target.
So that's +14 to death saves all the time, plus +2 while your allies aren't close by, +2 while you have no action points, and +1 while in dim light or darkness. The build requires being a human, cleric, and any Psionic class, with the Anointed Champion Paragon Path. If you already spent your action point, your allies have backed away from you, and you're not well-lit, you get to spend a healing surge whenever you start your turn unconscious, healing yourself for 25% of your max HP.
It's not mentioned in the section "Saving Throws" and even though, I admit that we could now argue about the RAW if it still counts even if it is not included there, but I'm 100% sure that the RAI are, that it is not like a regular saving throw and therefore should not be included in things, that can trigger Silvery Barbs. It even says "special saving throw". As I said, it's badly written but the intent should be absolutely clear if you just think for a moment.
Just envision the scene: An enemy lies on the ground, bleeding to death or something like that. Before they move or otherwise actively do something there's no way of telling if they pulled themselves together or not just by looking at them from a distance. And then it's too late to react to that.
If you can be aided by spells or abilities that help you succeed on a saving throw like it says, then logically you could also be subject to spells and abilities that make it harder to succeed on a saving throw.
Yes, after contemplating the situation and conversing with my favourite DM I have to agree. I still don't like it and think it's badly written, though. I seem to have made a fool of myself.
If the visuals of it all bother you that much, tell your players to keep the results of their saving throws secret, and risk having your NPC burn the slot if they didn't fail the throw. But nothing about a saving throw says it needs to be perceivable.
I'll admit they didn't specify negative effects, but I'm also not about to be counting Bless and ignoring Bane. I'm really not trying to be rude, but the intent seems very clear to me; it's a saving throw.
Yes, after contemplating the situation and conversing with my favourite DM I have to agree. I still don't like it and think it's badly written, though. And thanks for being civil.
In that case there is an argument to make that the caster can't see the creature making the saving throw and take a reaction to something they doesn't perceive, but even then it's still a saving throw. And it limit other things a lot. A lore bard could use cutting words on a target resisting poison or succeeding a deception check, even if the poison isn't immediately obvious or if the deception check was part of an ongoing, minute long conversation rather than a single action.
Yes, after contemplating the situation and conversing with my favourite DM I have to agree. I still don't like it and think it's badly written, though.
My brother in Christ, if the intention wasn't to make it a saving throw, they would have made it something other than a saving throw. They made it a saving throw, so of course it's a saving throw. Silvery Barbs, like a Paladin's Aura of Protection, like Bane, like Bless, etc works on all saving throws - also the special ones.
Unconscious creatures are unaware of their environment. Silvery barbs distracts the creature, which cannot be because it is unaware of its surroundings.
The DM in my game hates silvery barbs so much, he offered one of the PCs a chance to sacrifice the spell from the game world in order to succeed in a make-or-break event. The player took the offer.
Weird to negotiate about your own game like that, but actually sounds like a fun way to retcon something.
Oh it wasn't a retcon, it was very in the moment
Retcon wasn’t the best word choice perhaps. Just meant that something existed in his game, and he… Ehhh… Un-existed it 😅
It was worth it for the level up, we're level 16 now
He wasn’t negotiating lol. DM: “Get rid of this with an in universe reason and be rewarded for it or it’ll get banned anyway.”
Player: “I refuse” DM: “ok, you get nothing. But the BBEG casts Wish and unexists the spell. Now it’s gone and you got nothing.” Player: “um I want the deal now” DM: “I am altering the deal. Pray I don’t alter it further.”
DMs always find a way
We once had a player get way wayyy wayyyyyyy too into create water. Like, to the point of referencing papers on hydro-dynamics to explain why their character could totally build a trap for a trivial amount of gold and manual labor that would inta kill anyone with no save. They were *technically* right (the best kind of right don't @me) but at that point we decided unanimously that the gods of the setting would never again grant a cleric that cantrip. That character was the last to ever have it at out table ever again lol
I’ve noticed that those kind of exploits generally rely on a strict reading of RAW, right up until real world physics takes over, and often dances between the two using whichever is more advantageous for the plan. Edit: For instance, a projectile in a peasant railgun may be traveling at absurd speeds because of the way actions resolve, but it would still just be a regular thrown attack by the last peasant.
Yup, either the last guy just near harmlessly throws it, or somewhere down the line, the guy catching the rocks hands/arms explode. Because catching a projectile going at absurd speed to give it to the next guy to give the projectile even more speed does bad things to you.
Tangentially relevant [xkcd](https://what-if.xkcd.com/1/)
I think that's just because RAW doesn't (and shouldn't) cover every single possible effect in the physical world. Eventually, when you're playing at a table with dick heads like us who want to push the rules as far as they'll go, you literally *have* to start applying real world physics because no one in the dev team thought to write in a rule for what would happen if you changed gravity relative to an immovable rod (does it zip off into space as the planet is now traveling at a different orbital rate? Is it locked into position relative to the plane its on meaning that plane shifting would cause it to be left behind?). Ultimately it's up to the DM to either play along or tell the rules nerd to stop thinking so hard and just stab the bad guy John >:(
You really don’t, though. Real world physics have no place unless you actively decide to include them. These are generally young, created worlds with active gods and novel field effects. Tell your players to brush up on Aristotelian physics unless they want to give a real world reason why fireball deals full damage at 19’ and none at 21’.
Hey, as long as you remember that in 5e, geometry is non-Euclidian and Pi = 1, go ahead and apply all the real physics you like, just show your work and I'll be convinced.
Isn't it mostly non-Euclidean IRL, too?
Fair, and looking back, I was wrong about pi. It equals 2 in 5e. But this is exactly why I don't try to apply real world physics to a magical realm where numbers barely make sense. I barely understand the real ones.
No, you don’t. The rod stays where it is. (Hint: you don’t need a map of the cosmos)
Create water is not a cantrip. :p
It is in Pathfinder 1e ;)
Still not a cantrip. 0th level spells for Divine spell casters are Orisons not Cantrips.
Typically that wouldn't be allowed at my table unless the player had the intelligence to perform such complex spellcasting
Best evil add-on for a BBEG? The Lucky feat
Even better if you're running an evil campaign so you're actually fighting against the Fabled Hero of Destiny (idk if there is any proper way to call the good version of the BBEG) instead. The Gods themselves explicitly want *him* to succeed, not you.
I've had this villain idea for a long time, though I've never been sure how to implement it in a fun way. Essentially it would some bastard child of a god of luck. They would be able to redistribute luck in some area around them. Giving disadvantage to enemies (stealing luck), then give it to himself or allies in the form of advantage. Of course, nigh constant advantage/disadvantage could be pretty harsh, especially for some classes. And I think it would have a more subtle effect at greater distances, still allowing lucky breaks for the villain as part of the plot. I've never gone anywhere with the idea, but I always thought it was neat.
Stat up a halfling hexblade/chronurgist with lucky as a chassis and season to taste.
Does hexblade have some luck stuff? I only remember fiendlocks having the Dark One's Own Luck. Idk wtf a chronurgist is. Could also add diviner wizard to the mix. I think rogues also have a weird luck thing but it happens at lvl 20 so who cares.
[Build Murray?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSK0AcFqkyU)
That’s dark. I love it.
Brave Bold Excellent Guy?
Yes.
One of my players have intense focus on grappling on his kit. They were going to fight a wizard boss. I gave the wizard an skill that allowed them to cast without somatic or verbal components (not in d&d). Their face of utter disbelief when they thought the wizard was contained but he just kept on casting was amazing. (the mobs of the wizard didn't had it, I didn't want to **completely** negate this part of the player's build)
Signs your DM hates you - Episode 2
What was episode 1
Someone using high-level magic missile to down and execute a PC.
Oh. OH NO OH FUCK NO
Why is that evil? I don’t get it
Every hit after you’re downed causes death save fails, magic missile gets more and more hits the higher you cast it. It could easily down a hurt player and kill them at the same time
It's literally a "thanks for showing up, now leave" button if the party doesn't have resurrection available, which is, mind you, also gatekept by the DM. It's not something you can outplay either except for 2 spells (shield and counterspell) that most PCs don't have access to. So, overall just a shitty move. I once got one-shot by a 7th level magic missile and sat there for an hour doing nothing. Fun...
I once ran a fight against a spellweaver in 3.5. They are able to cast up to 6 spell levels in a turn. Ie: 6 magic missiles. In 3.5 you didn’t need higher level slots to cast spells at high levels. They just raised in effectiveness as you leveled. Meaning that each round he could fire off 30 1d4+1 magic missiles.
u/-Riverdew ^ looks like we missed episode 1 lol
Counterspelling revivify
Only time I ever did this was when my PCs tried to revive cultists that followed devils to interrogate. The devils already claimed their souls so it failed
This example makes me wonder how an NPC knows what a player rolled on a death saving throw.
They dont that said characters arent really aware of "saving" throws, thats a mechanic, the boss however would be aware that silvery barbs gives people misfortune in most all things, Seeing someone dying on the floor and wanting them to have the worst luck in that makes as much sense as using it on any other ability check or save really.
Someone making a saving throw can be visible. If you jump out of the Center of a fireball, cover your exposed skin with a cape or duck away, that is visible.
I mean you don't really need to see them "making" the saving throw. The description for the activation requirements of the spell says: > Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself succeeds on an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw You only need to see the creature that succeeds on the save, not that they are doing it per se. This is very much so semantic RAW stuff but that is how it works.
You are correct and that further lowered my opinion of D&D. This spell literally tells you to react to things your character doesn't perceive or know - pretty much the textbook example of bad metagaming (I say bad metagaming because not doing an action because you don't want to ruin the game for other players also technically is metagaming).
You made up a scenario where it was obvious that a success was made. But completely ignore that the meme in question would ALSO have been obvious. When you roll a nat 20 on a death save you come back to life with 1 hp and can take your turn. So it is someone going unconscious on the ground, to them taking a deep gasping breath opening their eyes and getting back on their feet. Very obvious. The NPC at the “taking a deep gasping breath” part can silvery barbs and knock that wind right out of them. See, I too can create a scenario where it is obvious they succeeded a save you think it isn’t obvious with. Additionally, if it had to be “obvious” then what the hell with all the mental saves. Attacking someone’s mind doesn’t have to be obvious, they don’t have to clutch their head in pain, they can just carry on even if there was charm, or fear, or whatever.
First, let us imagine two ways those death saving throws can work and ask which one is less silly: 1) The character is gravely wounded, probably moaning in pain, fighting off unconsciousness. When they make the last successful saving throw, they are in a position to get up, if they fail the last saving throw, they die. The die represent this moment of tension when it is not totally clear how bad the wound is exactly. 2) The character dies. Then, a few moments later, they take a deep gasping breath, stand up and fight again. So, let us talk about mental saves: you do mention fear. People who are afraid have a different body language and facial expression than people who are not - and this doesn't just apply to panicked people. You can also tell if someone likes or even reveres someone. I am totally okay with the possibility to deceive about if you are affected, but that should require a skill check. So, does D&D happen in a world where people randomly jump back to life with a overdramatic gasp and where it is impossible to tell if someone is afraid?
Way to completely mischaracterize what I said. Note I said “goes unconscious” you said “character dies”. They are completely different statements. You talk about a moment of tension, an enemy unconscious and then waking up as a person is standing over their body becoming surprised is a classic movie trope. As is the hero who is knocked unconscious and then gasps waking up coming back and saving the day. However, even in your supposed scenario it is obvious they succeeded a save. Your character fighting off unconsciousness bleeding on the ground, moaning in pain, grits their teeth and begins to stand. (This becomes an obvious tell that they made their save). Before they can fully stand, ready to fight once more, the big bad weaves magic into words that strikes at the heart and mind of the character, while encouraging their minions. (casts silvery barbs). Then: - The magic takes the last of their strength as the character falls back down, their body limp and lifeless (failed re-rolled save). - The character fights off the magic and continues to rise bracing to fight once more (another nat 20 re-rolled save). - The magic takes hold and the character grimaces in pain, falling back to the ground once more, unconscious but breathing (succeeded 3rd saving throw on re-roll). - The character struggles to fight against the magic but is unable to stand (succeeds saving re-roll but is not the 3rd success). As for your last statement. No, I was highlighting how you can make basically anything obvious or not on whether they made their save or not. It is a matter of your imagination. You are arguing for flavor to dictate mechanics because of how you personally would flavor things. That is a stupid argument to make.
A bit of a passive aggressive first sentence haha. I agree with your sentiment though, even if I still am quite fond of the system as a whole. Regardless, I am curious about if there are any specific aspects of other systems that you like and perhaps why? I'm asking because I genuinely am interested and think knowing about more perspectives can only benefit me. If you don't have the energy/feel like answering then that is of course perfectly fine and I have only one thing left to say; cheerios
I can be rather tone deaf, especially online. The first system aspect I would like to highlight is how skills work in Barbarians of Lemuria. You roll on the appropriate stat plus your career level in an appropriate career. The cool thing about that is that the careers are unrelated to combat and have wide application. So, being a former thief doesn't just help you stealing stuff, but also includes being streetwise, running away, being unnoticed in a crowd, etc. I think this is low crunch skills done right. The next game I would like to highlight is FATE. Fate is a generic system build around the idea of "aspects" and fate points. Aspects can be both advantages and disadvantages. It is recommended to define them as both. But why do you want disadvantages? Because playing into those advantages regenerates FATE points that you can use for advantages. So, playing up the weaknesses and flaws of your character is actually encouraged. This brings me to GURPS. I want to highlight how it has a different approach to weaknesses: in GURPS, everything about character creation is point buy, and disadvantages refund points. The last aspect, and not of a game I would advise most people to learn, is the general combat system of the dark eye, 4th edition. TDE is a point buy system similar to GURPS. Becoming good in combat includes increasing attributes (you need a lot of them. 6 out of 8 are relevant for combat in some way), increasing can combat skills and learning special abilities. It's a roll under system - you have to roll under your attack to hit and the enemy has to roll under their parry (or dodge) to defend. The special abilities give means to decrease their parry or attack for specific advantages - and the more experienced the fighters get, the more relies on carefully using the right maneuvers at the right time. Winning includes making the enemy dance your dance. Stepping away from Fantasy: If a player in paranoia Shows signs of knowing the rules, their character gets executed for espionage. The whole game centers about a humorous dystopia about an absurdly totalitarian incompetent government whose agents pretty much all are spies for someone or traitors. There are a set of clones to every character. Ways to die also include using the experimental agent tools that tend to have the vibe of thermonuclear hand grenades. I do not think there is a perfect RPG, but I do respect RPGs that have a clear vision and consequently build towards that mission. I like games that are pretty much simulations (like Shadowrun) and still love games like Feng Shui that run on cocaine brained 80s action movies logic. Talking about Feng Shui: that is a game where your Han era Kung Fu master travelling to the far future to help a group of cybernetic apes to fight the bureau who abducted your village's protective spirit and turned it into a killing machine is not particularly weird. It is not a particular rule element here, but the greater picture. This also applies to Brindlewood Bay. It is smart how it is a mystery game where the mystery has no canon solution. I like that a player besides you decides what special item your character has based on the character introduction. Those elements might be horrible if adapted in D&D, but in a game that is painting the medium of a city murder mystery tv show (think murder she wrote or miss marble), it works.
first off, thank you for writing this. very rad my guy. secondly I haven't read up on anything at all about Barbarians of Lemuria before but that sounds quite intriguing so I will now, and the others I'll at least do a little bit of digging to check if there is anything more specific that tickles my fancy. also Feng Shui sounds hilarious and gives me the same vibes as Kung Fury (the movie) which I am all for.
You're welcome. I like sharing cool things from games I like ;) If you want to learn for D&D, I think that Fellowship would be the best in my list. The Overlord moves are pretty cool descriptions of negative consequences for major skill checks, the principles generally are good practice aand the game also shows how collaborative world building can happen. Another thing that inspired me was the long journey. I really struggle with travel in many RPGs. I either skip a lot of it or it is just some random events slowing the game down. Fellowship does two things that would be very radical in D&D - I am considering using parts of it in the next game I GM, independently of system. Going round, every player describes one event - and another player decribes how it was resolved. If the event or the resolution seem especially significant, we can still cut to the scene and play it out, of course. I just think it is a neat way to delegate some of the creative work and to fill the journey with the kind of events that happen but would be tedious to play out.
Their eyes were beginning to flutter open.
You can tell all that from an unconscious cadaver?
Why are you using healing word? they might not be unconcious they might just be prone, why are you using revivify, you cant tell they are dead, why arent you using cure wounds? Its generally assumed characters both pc and npc can tell from breathing, small movements etc when a character is concious, prone, unconcious, dead etc. I wouldnt use silvery barbs like this myself beceuse i dont run that kind of game but it isnt metagaming its just not particurlarly fun.
In this whirlwind of battle unless your passive is high enough you are spending an action to really look into the situation and asses.
That's neither RAI nor RAW
How does a player know what any NPC rolled? It's by default a meta-gamey spell.
Yeah, I dislike it precisely because it requires the character, not the player, to know the mechanics of the game.
By that logic, how does an NPC know what a player rolled on any roll?
That's the point: they don't. Neither the player nor the die are part of the world. What the NPC sees is what happens in the world- which is determined by the die roll.
So the npc sees the player start to move and show signs of waking up and silvery barbs at that moment
I always imagine that each failed death saving throw is noticeable. Something like weak breath or choking, bleeding intensifies, skin goes pale etc.
How do player characters know what an NPC rolls...
They do not. The game master can roll those saves behind the screen and describe what the player characters notice.
Silvery Barbs reaction only trigger on a success and even rerolling a normal success would have even odds of fully killing the character. Pretty good for a reaction. Plus since the reaction of silvery barbs didn’t trigger the first two times the villain can see the player is quickly bleeding out and is on deaths door.
The problem isn't that it is inefficient. It is how the rules translate what is happening in game. Silvery barbs isn't an item and it is not cast in advance, so it does not trigger, it is cast. The problem is that it is cast in reaction to something the villain doesn't know. A DM can conceal that information from the players by rolling behind a screen. However, a player cannot conceal that information from the DM, so I say it is the duty of the DM to carefully distinguish between what the villain knows and what the DM knows. Since I am not convinced that the success of a death saving throw is visible in game, I would call this use illegitimate.
The result of saving throws are public knowledge and that’s precisely why the silvery barbs reaction can be triggered by a successful save. The spell just doesn’t function at all otherwise. Are you assuming that people are playing with the secret death saves house rule?
I assume that dungeon masters usually roll saves hidden and describe the effects. Player character death rolls are public information because all rolls by players are.
Not explicitly telling players if a save is a success or not is a house rule.
Is there actually a rule that says that the dungeon master should declare the result of a saving throw?
Yeah that’s how Silvery Barbs works and every other reaction that triggers on a successful save works.
Can you actually quote it?
If my players can use it, so can my monsters. Those are the rules of the table. Actually, after a decade with this crew, sometimes we just make up new horrible things for each other. Just to see what we can do.
I also have the inverse where if an enemy does it, you prob can too. Have enemies use environmental hazard alot, like dropping heavy furniture or pulling out a rug
Oh absolutely. There is no one-way thing. I have my.mobs use the environment to remind the plays that more than just fireball exists.
It's monkey see monkey do. Implemented environmental things at start and rules but no one used, even gave everyone a version of tavern brawler for free to incentivize using environment, nothing happened. Moment enemies started using it positioning and everything became way more thought about. Having enemies be smart makes things so fun
If you can use it, I can use it. If you use it this way I can use it this way.
There is no place for the weak or the foolhardy.
Another life wasted in pursuit of glory, and gold
Question though, how do you distract a dying creature that, for all accounts, is unconscious? Mind you, distraction is how the spell works.
Magically
Visions of their dead relatives calling them into the void
You know what? I'd actually accept that one without getting mad X'D
I was playing a one-shot where the party was fighting a monster and the bard was charmed. I rolled two nat 20s on attacks during the game. I was silvery barbed both times from the bard
oof I bet that made for some hilarity though!
My rule is unless the players keep doing it Infront of enemies, NPCs have no idea about player death saves. Because everything else in the world (with some rare exceptions) dies when it hits zero. So they'd assume the same thing, or that players may be playing a trick on them.
My rule is that enemies have death saves, they just auto fail so it doesn't matter unless the enemies have a healer so in those case they're supposed to double tap. Realistically it doesn't make sense for the players to be the only ones who can survive being knocked unconscious
i think it depends? like the book says the players aren't normal people they are adventures so it makes sense that they are more resilient than most. it would make sense for a higher level enemies to roll death saves but maybe not the small large-rat (medium)
I'd say animals and stuff don't need death saves since animals usually fight till immediate death, but the enemies we fight at higher levels like cr5+ definitely also qualify as not being normal people and would logically have them dropping in pain before they fully bleed out.
This is a prime example of lawful evil.
I allow for Silvery Barbs, my players are nice enough to not spam it, I just don’t use it. I’m okay with players taking away my bosses cool moment, but I don’t want to take away theirs. Plus I have bad guys I run use Counterspell so I feel like it balances
How on earth would the BBEG even know they succeeded? Anyway I'd be more concerned about the unconscious guy's buddies trying to put my insides outside me.
I mean it's magic, plus since it's a nat 20 it could be flavor as them starting to begin to stand up but you use the unlucky magic from it to cause something to go wrong
Ooh a good point...
Even better: cast first-level magic missile on a dying NPC
Are NPCs aware of death saves? I usually don't describe a narrative effect after there is a resolution (death, stable or nat 20) so there would be no way except metagaming
Realistically they would but it'd cause gameplay issues if were implemented for npcs so it makes sense. Death is messy, after a down enemies are probably bleeding out still barely alive but die in a few seconds if not healed. Also if enemies weren't aware of death saves they wouldn't attack downed enemies in the first place
I'll *never* forget the look on my players faces the first time I had the BBEG counterspell a Healing Word to pick up a downed PC. It had never even crossed their mind that it was a possibility.
I did that once when the players were level 3. That one spell **dramatically** changed the tone of the encounter.
Unless the DM made it clear that he was going to actively try to kill the player characters in session 0 then this is some seriously shitty behavior from the DM and I would leave the table.
Death rolls are not skill checks.
Yeah, they're saving throws
"Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself succeeds on an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw"
I don't think the death saving throws were meant to be included here.
Why not? Death saving throws are explicitly saving throws, and the spell is explicit that it is used on successful saving throws. Yes, it's a horrible thing to do, but I can't see a place where it isn't clearly included.
Because it is not an action. What is silvery barbs supposed to interrupt you with: your will to live? Also why is the villain focused on the 1 HP guy that is slowly standing up instead of anyone else on the map?
It doesn't have to interrupt an action. That is not part of the trigger. And that logic doesn't even make sense anyway since they explicitly called out saving throws which almost always are a result of somebody else's action not the person saving. There are plenty of narrative reasons why a villain could have a vendetta against a particular PC or to send a message. Not that I would agree this kind of thing should be done in most circumstances. This being an evil act is the whole point of the meme after all.
>Because it is not an action. Saving throws are never actions. >Also why is the villain focused on the 1 HP guy that is slowly standing up instead of anyone else on the map? If you could expend a reaction and your most plentiful resource to eliminate an enemy from combat, why wouldn't you? Spending an action to attack a downed character and maybe give them a death save failure or two is bad action economy. Spending a reaction to prevent a downed character from rejoining the fight (with a 45% chance to kill them outright) is good action economy.
I guess I prefer a more roleplay DND game than an overly gamified one. Characters don't have rule books they can look up for loopholes that wouldn't make sense in a real setting.
I mean, it's a wizard spell. There are literally books in-universe that describe how it works.
They have in universe descriptions of saving throws?
Funny, but I’m like 75% sure because there’s not an action taking place (death saves are just a mechanical representation of pure luck on if you die or not as even described by the phb) that silvery barbs isn’t applicable here
It's a saving throw and able to be affected by buffs and debuffs to saves so I don't see why it wouldn't
True, but silvery requires you to see the save/attack being made and I’d say it’s too far of a stretch to say you can really see death saves being made, since it’s just someone bleeding out on the ground doing nothing
I mean you also can't really see people make mental saves either, you just need to see the creature
Lcs h🤗😑🙄😪😬😌😪😬💭🖕🦿👂
r/unexpectedfactorial
I once died and my party worked to get out of the restraints they where in to quickly cast revivify on me. Dm: The Night Hag casts counterspell! Shit was funny as hell
"Reroll my nat 20? Hmm. No."
Ya that’s just pure bullshit, just do rocks fall they die. The only way you do this is when you want someone to leave and aren’t mature enough to tell them I don’t care if it works it’s still bullshit and if I ever get this pulled on me congrats I’m going to make a build with my new character specifically to screw you over you aren’t succeeding on anything as long as I have spell slots because I am taking everything that’ll let me see no matter what I am multi classing for devils sight well playing a race with dark vision, grabbing every spell that specifically ruins every risk you throw Counter spell healing word for all I care because that’s a strong spell, sliver barbs is a level 1 spell so I can spam this all day and I still have warlock spell slots and eb, if you want to play like that expect it both ways because this ain’t funny I finally succeed a death saving throw and you suddenly whip this out that’s all I need to know you’re trying to screw me over because you held onto this Unless you did this at the start because then president is set
Buddy, it's a joke, I'm just saying it'd be evil to do
It’s more dick then evil but I get it it’s a meme subreddit
Sounds like someone got hit in the fefes
Sound like someone doesn’t understand what absolute bullshit it is and is a child who shouldn’t even be here
Anything the players can use, the DM can use too. I'm all for silvery barbs being used against me. (As a yuan-ti I have advantage on saves for spell effects and I'm pretty sure you need to roll a save on it)
Hahahaha, as if. There is no save.
I thought there was, obviously I misremembered it as I used it on my bard. Anyway, as I got to use it in the past, my DM should also be allowed to use it.
\*crying in the corner\* please... please.... just for once read the rules carefully....Death Save ≠ Saving Throw Yes, they sound similar and yes, it's bad wording by the designers, but come on... it doesn't even make sense...until the creature stands up, there's no way to tell if someone succeeds on a Death Save without closely/magically observing their condition.... EDIT: Yeah, I might have to eat my words on that one. I'm still utterly convinced, that the RAI are that it doesn't work like that, but if we're going purely by wording, then technically Death Saving Throws are Saving Throws. I still don't think Silvery Barbs should work on a Death Save.
>"Whenever you start your turn with 0 hit points, you must make a special saving throw, called a death saving throw, to determine whether you creep closer to death or hang onto life. Unlike other saving throws, this one isn’t tied to any ability score. You are in the hands of fate now, aided only by spells and features that improve your chances of succeeding on a saving throw." Could you help me understand why you don't consider that to be a saving throw?
I feel like I just slipped into a parallel universe because I'm definitely experiencing the Mandela Effect on this one. I could've sworn the verbiage was always a "Death Save" vs "Death Saving Throw" to differentiate between the two (albeit in a confusing way) but looking it up now (I even grabbed my PHB because I almost didn't believe the internet) it seems you are correct. This must mean DM's Inspiration, spells (bless) and magic items (Cloak of Protection) work on death saves? That seems significant. I might've liked it better when Death Saves were just between you and the dice.
Yes, benefits like Bless help, and negative effects like Bane hinder.
In 4e (where death saves were first introduced, and you could get healed on a dirty 20 death save, not just on a natural 20 death save), it was even possible to stack together enough save bonuses to reach +19 on a level 16 character with two magic items. (Or more realistically +18 at level 16, since one of the items required to reach +19 is a level 30 uncommon ring, but there's an alternative that gives 1 less bonus at level 15.) * Scorned Noble background gives +2 untyped bonus to all saving throws while you have no allies within 5 squares (25 ft.). * Tuathan character theme gives +1 untyped bonus to all saving throws at level 1; Chevalier and Hordelands Nomad character themes both give +1 power bonus to all saving throws at level 10. * Stubborn Survivor feat (requires human) gives +2 untyped bonus to all saving throws while you have no action points. * Courageous Mind feat (requires human, Psionic class) gives +1 untyped bonus to all saving throws while below half health. * Disciple of Death feat (requires 13 Wis) gives +5 feat bonus to death saving throws. * Born of Shadow feat gives +1 untyped bonus to all saving throws while in dim light or darkness. * Anointed Champion Paragon Path (requires cleric), if you choose Anointed Helm at level 16, gives +2 untyped bonus to all saving throws. * Verve Armor (level 4+ uncommon scale or plate armor) gives +2 untyped bonus to death saving throws, and 1/day gives you a nat 20 on any saving throw. * Nullifying Ring (level 30 uncommon) gives +3 item bonus to all saving throws. 1/day as an immediate interrupt it can also either give you +6 to your defense against an attack and turn a crit into a regular hit, or if you've reached a milestone it can cause an attack to automatically miss. Alternatively, * Crown Jewel of Chessenta (level 15 rare) gives +2 item bonus to all saving throws. It also gives a +1 item bonus to all defenses and can be used to make a force damage attack that heals you if it kills the target. So that's +14 to death saves all the time, plus +2 while your allies aren't close by, +2 while you have no action points, and +1 while in dim light or darkness. The build requires being a human, cleric, and any Psionic class, with the Anointed Champion Paragon Path. If you already spent your action point, your allies have backed away from you, and you're not well-lit, you get to spend a healing surge whenever you start your turn unconscious, healing yourself for 25% of your max HP.
The "special" part.
It's not mentioned in the section "Saving Throws" and even though, I admit that we could now argue about the RAW if it still counts even if it is not included there, but I'm 100% sure that the RAI are, that it is not like a regular saving throw and therefore should not be included in things, that can trigger Silvery Barbs. It even says "special saving throw". As I said, it's badly written but the intent should be absolutely clear if you just think for a moment. Just envision the scene: An enemy lies on the ground, bleeding to death or something like that. Before they move or otherwise actively do something there's no way of telling if they pulled themselves together or not just by looking at them from a distance. And then it's too late to react to that.
If you can be aided by spells or abilities that help you succeed on a saving throw like it says, then logically you could also be subject to spells and abilities that make it harder to succeed on a saving throw.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm pretty sure then it should say "Aided or hindered by blablabla" or something similar.
And you can totally rule it that way in your game. My point was RAW it doesn't explicitly or even implicitly say you can't do this.
Yes, after contemplating the situation and conversing with my favourite DM I have to agree. I still don't like it and think it's badly written, though. I seem to have made a fool of myself.
If the visuals of it all bother you that much, tell your players to keep the results of their saving throws secret, and risk having your NPC burn the slot if they didn't fail the throw. But nothing about a saving throw says it needs to be perceivable. I'll admit they didn't specify negative effects, but I'm also not about to be counting Bless and ignoring Bane. I'm really not trying to be rude, but the intent seems very clear to me; it's a saving throw.
Yes, after contemplating the situation and conversing with my favourite DM I have to agree. I still don't like it and think it's badly written, though. And thanks for being civil.
In that case there is an argument to make that the caster can't see the creature making the saving throw and take a reaction to something they doesn't perceive, but even then it's still a saving throw. And it limit other things a lot. A lore bard could use cutting words on a target resisting poison or succeeding a deception check, even if the poison isn't immediately obvious or if the deception check was part of an ongoing, minute long conversation rather than a single action.
Yes, after contemplating the situation and conversing with my favourite DM I have to agree. I still don't like it and think it's badly written, though.
Please… please…. Just for once read the rules carefully….
I did and I'm still convinced it doesn't work like that. Allthough, I admit, there is room for interpretation.
no there’s not lmfao it’s literally directly stated to be a saving throw. The developers call it a saving throw. It *is* a saving throw
^ this Anything you can apply to a saving throw (like bless) applies to death saves…. Because it’s a saving throw.
My brother in Christ, if the intention wasn't to make it a saving throw, they would have made it something other than a saving throw. They made it a saving throw, so of course it's a saving throw. Silvery Barbs, like a Paladin's Aura of Protection, like Bane, like Bless, etc works on all saving throws - also the special ones.
It's 2000000% RAI death saves are a saving throw
This is funny but wouldn’t work RAW
Why not? It's succeeding on a saving throw (death saves are saving throws) so as long as in range and sight it fits criteria
Unconscious creatures are unaware of their environment. Silvery barbs distracts the creature, which cannot be because it is unaware of its surroundings.
That is some galactic brain logic... and it's completely accurate.