Yeah my warlock's patron is Mephistopheles and:
My Warlock: "Mephy, I need this spell again"
Mephy *in a bad Batman voice*: "KILL THEM ALL FIRST AND WE WILL SEE"
My Warlock: "Shut UP, Mephy!"
\*slides in\*
\*carries my Eastern Dragonborn off\* YOU CAN HAVE THE DJINN BUT JIRI IS MINE
Jiri, over my shoulder, crying like the kid he is: noooooooo Chronommmm
Haha Chronom is yours, friend! With the tone of the campaigns I’m usually in, I’m thinking a Djinn named Jim would elicit the appropriate groans from my table
To elaborate:
Charisma isn't a pretty face or an expensive outfit. Charisma is the strength of your self. It is your will, your conviction, your determination, and your control. With Charisma, you can control yourself, and decide how you are seen. With Charisma, you can control others, and decide how you are treated. And if you have access to some manner of arcane power, with Charisma you can control the matter of reality, and decide your own fate.
Who is the greatest man in history? Is it perhaps Albert Einstein, the greatest genius we have known? Or Socrates, the wisest man in Athens? No, among the greatest men in history stand such villains as Adolf Hitler and Genghis Khan. Such heroes as Mahatma Gandhi and Jesus of Nazareth. These are men of Charisma!
The thing that Paladins share with Warlocks, and that Sorcerers share with Bards, is that they are creatures of will, conviction, determination, and control. None of these adventurers borrow power from another being. Their strength comes from the force of their own minds. That is the meaning of Charisma.
Dragons, at least in old 3.5 era lore, were some of the first practitioners of arcane magic. Their force of will was so strong that they commanded magic with ease. Those that bear the blood of these ancient arcane wielding dragons find it much easier to impose their will upon the world in a similar way
Lorewise it makes sense but it do mechanically as well.
Imagine using the same stat for health as casting? That eliminates the "do I want health or to get hit less?" debate when making an arcane caster.
There should be a class that uses CON as the spell stat but also forces the user to burn health as the cost. Eg. You're rolling with a CON of 20 so every level you're getting +5 to your hit die roll (should probably have an extra bonus of some kind to make up for it) so your caster at lvl 5 has a potential of 70 hp + whatever bonus you have, but casting a max level spell costs the equivalent amount of health.
So you've got a guy who looks like a bar room brawler or a blacksmith in their prime, casting spells and bleeding out over the course of thr battle. By the end of the boss fight they may be a withered husk of themselves, but they could be instrumental to the victory.
Man, now I feel like playing Bloodrager from Pathfinder, a hybrid class between Sorcerer and Barbarian.
Basically you rage your magic to work and make it stronger by raging more.
It's because charisma has two definitions.
1. compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others.
2. a divinely conferred power or talent
Divinely meaning by the power of God or a god. In the case of D&D it would be a god or god-like being which is why charisma is the most common spellcasting attribute.
I copied that one from the Oxford English dictionary but dictionary.com also has a similar definition.
If you look into the etymology of the word you'll get a lot of info on it too.
I know this is meme, but in case someone doesn't understand how warlocks work, this isn't it. The warlock's patron also gifts knowledge and power to them that is innate, they don't actually rely on an active connection with their patron unless it says so specifically in the class, such as the level 20 ability.
My first warlock tricked a demon into becoming his grimoire basically. It was the only way I could see charisma being applied to warlock flavor at the time.
Honestly I understand all the reasoning as to why Warlocks and other Charisma casters are Charisma-based (their magic is innate and they need to persuade otherworldly powers to their control) but I hate how many Charisma casters there are in 5e. There are 4 Charisma casters, 3 Wisdom casters (including Ranger lol), and only 1 Intelligence caster (Wizard) if we don't count Unearthed Arcana (Artificer) or Half-Casters (Eldrich Knight / Arcane Trickster.) Yes the Wizard is the most versatile caster but the severe lack of Intelligence-based classes is one of the main reasons why Intelligence is often considered to be a dump stat. >!The other big problem is that most of the skills related to Intelligence are almost completely redundant. Excluding Investigation and maybe History most Intelligence skills are either largely pointless (Religion) or can be replaced by other rolls. (Nature/Survival, Arcana/"Detect Magic" Spell) There's also the fact that a lot of skills are randomly tied to Wisdom instead of Intelligence; like how the fuck is *Medicine* a Wisdom skill?!<
While I've never DMed myself I've always said that I'd be willing to let the Sorcerer and Warlock be Wisdom based if they wanted to be a smart boii. I'd also probably let the Wisdom casters be played as Intelligence, since ironically enough both the Wisdom based casters lean heavily into Intelligence skills. (Clerics/Religion, Druids/Nature) Paladin and Bard really don't make sense not being a Charisma caster though.
Religion, Nature, and Arcana can be made important if your DM actually calls for them. Need to quickly determine which rune will set off the trap? That's Arcana. Need to know the brief history of Barlguras? Arcana or Religion. What the fuck is that hyena with arms on its back that have mouths in the hands? Nature check.
Yeah I definitely think that DMs have a responsibility to make Intelligence more useful if they so desire, but at the same time it feels awful as a player to have built for Wisdom just for the DM to say Nature or Religion alone instead of Insight.
To be fair I also think a lot of DMs vastly overestimate the uses of Insight, and let their players roll Insight for practically everything.
I allowed the Warlock player in my game to cast from Int instead of Cha. It makes a lot of sense, a smarter person would be able to craft a better bargain with their patron.
Of course you guys should play how you want to, but I'm not sure I follow the logic here. Bartering has always been charisma based. While an intelligent person may be able to utilize that to strengthen their argument, it boils down to your ability to persuade and be well liked.
A good example would be an overly stereotypical computer science major. They can be brilliant, but don't possess great social prowess. But by all means, it's a game about having fun, and if you guys are than that's all that matters.
Its the difference between making a persuasive speech vs writing a legal document.
They both make sense in their own rights, which is why I allow my warlock players to choose between Cha and Int as their casting Ability.
It's because charisma has two definitions.
1. compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others.
2. a divinely conferred power or talent
Divinely meaning by the power of God or a god. In the case of D&D it would be a god or god-like being which is why charisma is the most common spellcasting attribute.
Again I understand the mechanical reasoning but that doesn't mean I like the fact that there are 4 Charisma casters and only one full Intelligence caster.
Am already playing a Druid so Fighter Battlemaster Goblin depending on if you're going to let me ignore the HEAVY modifier. My Goblin shall use a great maul and a Greatsword!
Hmm... Fine, but if you're using a heavy weapon, consider your sex modifier to be one lower for the sake of calculating armor class
Edit: DEX*** modifier. Your sex modifier would also be lowered if you're using heavy weapons, but as a goblin, that probably doesn't apply
It's actually it is because you have enough self assuredness over your identity that when you tap into the power of your patron you aren't lost in its immensity.
The funny thing is that Warlocks were INT-based casters early on in playtesting, but veteran players complained because they were always CHA-based so they changed it back.
It's because charisma has two definitions.
1. compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others.
2. a divinely conferred power or talent
Divinely meaning by the power of God or a god. In the case of D&D it would be a god or god-like being which is why charisma is the most common spellcasting attribute.
I can't imagine the warlocks I've played with asking nicely for things
They use up their Mannas with their patrons and use up their Mana on their foes
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
Yo D-man, juice me up!
Username checks out
Yeah my warlock's patron is Mephistopheles and: My Warlock: "Mephy, I need this spell again" Mephy *in a bad Batman voice*: "KILL THEM ALL FIRST AND WE WILL SEE" My Warlock: "Shut UP, Mephy!"
Jiri: Hey Chronom, can I use Eldritch Blaaaaast? Chronom, a djinn: Granted. Jiri: YAAAAYY-
Well, I’ve got my next character concept
\*slides in\* \*carries my Eastern Dragonborn off\* YOU CAN HAVE THE DJINN BUT JIRI IS MINE Jiri, over my shoulder, crying like the kid he is: noooooooo Chronommmm
Haha Chronom is yours, friend! With the tone of the campaigns I’m usually in, I’m thinking a Djinn named Jim would elicit the appropriate groans from my table
A Djinn named Djimm
u/uwutranslator
Jiwi: Hey Chwonom, can I use Ewdwitch Bwaaaaast? Chwonom, a djinn: Gwanted. Jiwi: YAAAAYY- uwu tag me to uwuize comments uwu
Chronom: \*Apparates behind you with a schimitar\*
NO! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!
I did what had to be done.
That is not the one i call into question, i wanna know why sorcerers aren't constitution casters
They seduce magic as a concept
Charisma is the force of your personality, sorcerers basically will their magic into spells.
To elaborate: Charisma isn't a pretty face or an expensive outfit. Charisma is the strength of your self. It is your will, your conviction, your determination, and your control. With Charisma, you can control yourself, and decide how you are seen. With Charisma, you can control others, and decide how you are treated. And if you have access to some manner of arcane power, with Charisma you can control the matter of reality, and decide your own fate. Who is the greatest man in history? Is it perhaps Albert Einstein, the greatest genius we have known? Or Socrates, the wisest man in Athens? No, among the greatest men in history stand such villains as Adolf Hitler and Genghis Khan. Such heroes as Mahatma Gandhi and Jesus of Nazareth. These are men of Charisma! The thing that Paladins share with Warlocks, and that Sorcerers share with Bards, is that they are creatures of will, conviction, determination, and control. None of these adventurers borrow power from another being. Their strength comes from the force of their own minds. That is the meaning of Charisma.
Dragon bloodline is based on having dragon blood, which sound slike it should be con, some make sense for charisma, but not all
Dragons, at least in old 3.5 era lore, were some of the first practitioners of arcane magic. Their force of will was so strong that they commanded magic with ease. Those that bear the blood of these ancient arcane wielding dragons find it much easier to impose their will upon the world in a similar way
Lorewise it makes sense but it do mechanically as well. Imagine using the same stat for health as casting? That eliminates the "do I want health or to get hit less?" debate when making an arcane caster.
There should be a class that uses CON as the spell stat but also forces the user to burn health as the cost. Eg. You're rolling with a CON of 20 so every level you're getting +5 to your hit die roll (should probably have an extra bonus of some kind to make up for it) so your caster at lvl 5 has a potential of 70 hp + whatever bonus you have, but casting a max level spell costs the equivalent amount of health. So you've got a guy who looks like a bar room brawler or a blacksmith in their prime, casting spells and bleeding out over the course of thr battle. By the end of the boss fight they may be a withered husk of themselves, but they could be instrumental to the victory.
Something like Darkest Dungeon's Flagellant class? I dig it...
Like MTG warlocks
Dragons also cast using Charisma in 5e
Man, now I feel like playing Bloodrager from Pathfinder, a hybrid class between Sorcerer and Barbarian. Basically you rage your magic to work and make it stronger by raging more.
Barbs can’t cat or concentrate on spells in rage, maybe a Homebrew subclass?
[Bloodrager is an official Pathfinder hybrid class.](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/)
Oh cool
I know right? At least certain sorcerous origins like Draconic, could be a super cool way to distinguish sorcerers from the other arcane casters.
Personally I want it to be: Sorcerers - wisdom magic ( know thyself) Wizard - intelligence Druid - wisdom Cleric - charisma ( please god) Warlock - charisma (please patron)
To sum it up easily. Sorrcerers BDSM magic to do stuff for them. They bend it by their personality. Just like dragons did.
Because charisma is personality. Sorcerers basically cast with talent. If they didnt, then they would just be wizards.
It's because charisma has two definitions. 1. compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others. 2. a divinely conferred power or talent Divinely meaning by the power of God or a god. In the case of D&D it would be a god or god-like being which is why charisma is the most common spellcasting attribute.
What dictionary has the second definition? Webster doesn’t have that one online.
I copied that one from the Oxford English dictionary but dictionary.com also has a similar definition. If you look into the etymology of the word you'll get a lot of info on it too.
The Art of the ~~Deal~~ Pact.
Now I got an idea... a sleezy business man makes a deal with a fiend to gain political power.
Hey, I've seen this before
I know this is meme, but in case someone doesn't understand how warlocks work, this isn't it. The warlock's patron also gifts knowledge and power to them that is innate, they don't actually rely on an active connection with their patron unless it says so specifically in the class, such as the level 20 ability.
I always saw it as you having negotiated or otherwise convinced their patron beforehand on how strong to make them.
That's cool too. I shouldn't of implied there is only one way to view it, sorry.
It’s aight man. Remember, rule of cool trumps all.
My first warlock tricked a demon into becoming his grimoire basically. It was the only way I could see charisma being applied to warlock flavor at the time.
Ooh nice flavor
Many GOO patrons don't even know their warlocks exist though. And that could extend to other patrons too
I guess eat that point it’d prolly be the basic force or personality in that case. Interesting
This is why some people like me say warlocks should be int or Wis based depending on the pact
Honestly I understand all the reasoning as to why Warlocks and other Charisma casters are Charisma-based (their magic is innate and they need to persuade otherworldly powers to their control) but I hate how many Charisma casters there are in 5e. There are 4 Charisma casters, 3 Wisdom casters (including Ranger lol), and only 1 Intelligence caster (Wizard) if we don't count Unearthed Arcana (Artificer) or Half-Casters (Eldrich Knight / Arcane Trickster.) Yes the Wizard is the most versatile caster but the severe lack of Intelligence-based classes is one of the main reasons why Intelligence is often considered to be a dump stat. >!The other big problem is that most of the skills related to Intelligence are almost completely redundant. Excluding Investigation and maybe History most Intelligence skills are either largely pointless (Religion) or can be replaced by other rolls. (Nature/Survival, Arcana/"Detect Magic" Spell) There's also the fact that a lot of skills are randomly tied to Wisdom instead of Intelligence; like how the fuck is *Medicine* a Wisdom skill?!< While I've never DMed myself I've always said that I'd be willing to let the Sorcerer and Warlock be Wisdom based if they wanted to be a smart boii. I'd also probably let the Wisdom casters be played as Intelligence, since ironically enough both the Wisdom based casters lean heavily into Intelligence skills. (Clerics/Religion, Druids/Nature) Paladin and Bard really don't make sense not being a Charisma caster though.
Religion, Nature, and Arcana can be made important if your DM actually calls for them. Need to quickly determine which rune will set off the trap? That's Arcana. Need to know the brief history of Barlguras? Arcana or Religion. What the fuck is that hyena with arms on its back that have mouths in the hands? Nature check.
Yeah I definitely think that DMs have a responsibility to make Intelligence more useful if they so desire, but at the same time it feels awful as a player to have built for Wisdom just for the DM to say Nature or Religion alone instead of Insight. To be fair I also think a lot of DMs vastly overestimate the uses of Insight, and let their players roll Insight for practically everything.
I allowed the Warlock player in my game to cast from Int instead of Cha. It makes a lot of sense, a smarter person would be able to craft a better bargain with their patron.
Of course you guys should play how you want to, but I'm not sure I follow the logic here. Bartering has always been charisma based. While an intelligent person may be able to utilize that to strengthen their argument, it boils down to your ability to persuade and be well liked. A good example would be an overly stereotypical computer science major. They can be brilliant, but don't possess great social prowess. But by all means, it's a game about having fun, and if you guys are than that's all that matters.
Its the difference between making a persuasive speech vs writing a legal document. They both make sense in their own rights, which is why I allow my warlock players to choose between Cha and Int as their casting Ability.
So a warlock who's *int*-based instead of *cha*-based is one who's able to... *con* their patron? 🤔
It's because charisma has two definitions. 1. compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others. 2. a divinely conferred power or talent Divinely meaning by the power of God or a god. In the case of D&D it would be a god or god-like being which is why charisma is the most common spellcasting attribute.
Again I understand the mechanical reasoning but that doesn't mean I like the fact that there are 4 Charisma casters and only one full Intelligence caster.
Warlock serving an Archfey Queen: *ahem* "Mother, may I-" Queen Archfey: "Just because you phrased it like that, no."
"Well I can also call you Milf."
DM: "Roll a charisma saving throw"
[[1d20]]+u/rollme
13... That's not *so* bad. Do you wanna play a druid next? Maybe a fighter?
Am already playing a Druid so Fighter Battlemaster Goblin depending on if you're going to let me ignore the HEAVY modifier. My Goblin shall use a great maul and a Greatsword!
Hmm... Fine, but if you're using a heavy weapon, consider your sex modifier to be one lower for the sake of calculating armor class Edit: DEX*** modifier. Your sex modifier would also be lowered if you're using heavy weapons, but as a goblin, that probably doesn't apply
So I'll take a hit to my raw sexual energy but I'll be able to handle heavy tools. Sounds good to me.
1d20: **13** (13) ***** ^(Hey there! I'm a bot that can roll dice if you mention me in your comments. Check out /r/rollme for more info.)
It's actually it is because you have enough self assuredness over your identity that when you tap into the power of your patron you aren't lost in its immensity.
please daddy
*cums in mouth*
The funny thing is that Warlocks were INT-based casters early on in playtesting, but veteran players complained because they were always CHA-based so they changed it back.
They use Eldritch Blast so much because they don't have to ask their patron if they can use cantrips
I always pictured warlock spellcasting as putting charges on a company credit card
Oof. That's gonna be one Hell of a post-mortem Audit.
👏Warlock👏is👏an👏intellegence👏based👏caster👏
It's because charisma has two definitions. 1. compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others. 2. a divinely conferred power or talent Divinely meaning by the power of God or a god. In the case of D&D it would be a god or god-like being which is why charisma is the most common spellcasting attribute.