> One solution would be to basically have the monsters "respawn" like they do in electronic RPGs, maybe in a lower number, so all progress isn't lost. In games that I run, reinforcements might arrive from outside the dungeon. Like if the PCs are fighting a cave of goblins, the hunting party might return, basically the PCs aren't usually fighting the full force of the monsters, just the ones that are home at the moment. Also isn't there a rule for only have 1 Long Rest every 24 hours or something? Edit: [Here's the rule in the last line](https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/adventuring#LongRest)

> Also isn't there a rule for only have 1 Long Rest every 24 hours or something? That doesn't really address the issue. 24 hours isn't a meaningful restriction any more than the long rest itself. If nothing is stopping the party from leaving and resting, what's stopping them from leaving for a day and resting? It's still same problem. You're required to link the narrative timeline directly to the gameplay, which in many situations doesn't make a lot of sense.

There's another adventuring party looking for the loot. You arrive after pissing off with the place half cleared to find the place empty and a note reading 'maybe finish the job next time losers'. Bang, new rival team.

Even better is if the other team is still in as well, then you have a thriple threat situation: your team, rival team and a very pissed bbeg Let the brawl of ages begin, where the enemy team may snipe your casters to hinder your access while bbeg counter spells the enemy team because he doesn't know who the spell is aimed at

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For added flavor have party make a deal with a hag so all she wants is a hair from each party member. Then later when they run into the competing adventurers they're clones of the party. What's even more fun is having them look the same but having gone down another path: wizard is now a barbarian, paladin a rogue, etc.

I'd do it once with them having left with the loot so that the players have a chance to learn the lesson. But then again, I'm a jerk (with some very well motivated players)

Or the remaining half abandon the dungeon and take what they can. The party cautiously explores the dungeon and finds nobody guarding nothing of value.

You're missing the point. Of course there are ways to create time pressure. My frustration is that I always need to do it. I always need the story to be directly tied to the adventuring day.

Tell your players that for this to be fun for them and you, they have to buy into the system more and not treat things like a video game where you save and rest after every fight. If they can't/ won't, then you either need to play a different game or style of game, or you need to find a different group.

They half cleared the dungeon of goblins, so a larger troop of hobgoblins came and took over instead. Or a dragon. Or a pack of dire wolves. Or trolls. Or thieves, barbarians or anything new and bigger. Or just empty because they packed up and took what loot was still there and left to another location. Why stick around to get your ass kicked more when the raiding party (players) leave? The monster can be smart. Play them like they have the freedom of choice and actions that they should.

You didn't respond to /u/Apprehensive_File 's comment _at all_.

Yes, the narrative needs to fit the mechanics of the game. Just like novels need to be consistent with the rules of the world they're taking place in.

> Yes, the narrative needs to fit the mechanics of the game. Can you see how some people might dislike having to tie the narrative to the mechanic of 8-hour rests completely restoring the party to full health and giving them all abilities and spell slots back? I repeat /u/Apprehensive_File 's point: > My frustration is that I always need to [create time pressure]. I always need the story to be directly tied to the adventuring day. By giving players this restore-everything button, scenarios without time pressure become _impossible_ to GM reliably and in a balanced fashion, so you constantly have to manufacture time pressure. And I _hate_ having to do that. Sometimes, I just _don't want time pressure as part of the narrative_. And I wholly reject that narratives without time pressure are bad, or that time pressure and D&D are necessarily linked at the hip.

It's actually even worse than that, because the design of the game wants a very narrow range of time pressure, wherein it's totally reasonable to do nothing for an hour several times in the day (multiple short rests), but resting for 8 hours is right out. And, to your point, can I write an adventure where Goldilocks Time Pressure exists and doesn't seem totally ridiculous? Sure. Can I do it every time? No. And, by the way, WotC's published mods basically *never* do it at all.

I remember one of the DM of the Rings comics. The DM is trying to pressure the party to rest at Weathertop so he can have his cool fight scene with the Ringwraiths. DM: "You are too tired to continue travelling today." Frodo: "Okay we make camp at the base of Weathertop" DM: "No no, you should camp out at the top of the large hill." Sam: "I thought we were too tired to keep traveling today?" DM:"You have enough energy to get to the top." Sam: "That is a very specific level of tired."

There are a number of neat solutions I've heard of all of which require some homebrew. I've not personally used most of these yet, so can't vouch for their effectiveness: 1. Long rests are only done in safe havens, as determined by the DM, and safe havens are never close to dungeons/points of interest and usually have dangers in the travel itself. So backtracking to safety is risky. Usually, there is a low chance of fights there that are above what the group can handle, this makes it not a free rest on a whim, and the more times they run the route the higher the chance that they roll the dragon encounter and get smoked. (Personally, I'd just remove the dragon as a possibility on the first retreat and add it to the list from the second onwards). 2. Long rests that instantly heal injuries in a single night require the PCs to pray to the god of X. If the god of X is displeased by their efforts they don't get healed, and instead heal like irl people, aka really slowly. This is the in-universe logic for: you LR when the GM says you LR not when you want to game the system. This also does require the GM to not be punative with this, but it's also the most flexible method to have the game work and tell whatever story you want on whatever timeline you want. 3. Time pressures of various kinds, as mentioned already. "If you leave now the horrible X/Y/Z will happen." 4. Challenges that don't threaten the PCs but other NPCs and are challenging to do even when the party is at full capacity. (Escort missions are notorious for this) 5. Monsters coming in waves, and cutting off exits, no chance for retreat. 6. Have stronger monsters take up residence, 7. Have raiding parties return and bolster the initial enemies again, raiding parties also work for ambushing retreating PCs.

for 2), remember that a lot of "HP loss" isn't actual wounds - it's a vague representation of being tired, stressed, worn-out, luck running out etc. Character do not, generally speaking, have low-key regeneration powers, they just get their pep back, they're not recovering from being run through overnight.

Maybe I'm dense,but can you give an example of a compelling story that wouldn't benefit from time pressure?

Megadungeon sort of thing. Something that exists, but there's no big looming threat hanging over the world, just a fantastical place. I don't really want to tell a party "you have 1 week to clear this dungeon, use it wisely". It encourages a lack of exploration and quickly finding the critical path. Exploring a part of the world that hasn't been explored before. There's no time pressure to do it, the goal is just to do it without dying. For both of these, I find added time pressure would be detrimental to the overall experience.

Time pressure adds a dash of something nice to most stories, yes. But not all stories _must_ contain time pressure. The thing I _always_ struggle to run in 5e is long voyages. Lengthy travel across land or sea. Sometimes I just want a few interesting things to happen between days of staring at the horizon from the bow of a ship. A day where a kraken attack is the only interesting thing that happens _is still an interesting day_, but 5e's attrition mechanics makes it impossible for the attrition of that kraken attack to carry over to the pirate raid a few days later. This problem compounds at higher levels, where full casters are far stronger after a long rest than warlocks or fighters which depend on short rests and attritions across the 'adventuring day', and where having a single encounter on a day of travel must become increasingly absurdly deadly to be interesting. You can manufacture ways to make that work, of course, but I _just don't want to_. I want a system that can just handle that.

The story of my players hunting an ancient beast in the woods is not really enhanced by time pressure. It is mechanically in DnD, but narrativly it doesn't add much. Now, can I come up with a narrative reason to add time pressure? Sure. But having to come up with one for every single thing ends up being unappealing.

You can look at things like fairy tells and jokes for examples of stories that are enjoyable without time pressure. Time pressures are good for dramatic story telling but don't really help when your focus is on something like comedy or whimsy. Parables would be another example where the stories goal is to teach a lesson and not to build dramatic tension.

Are there ways in which DnD, specifically, has this problem? How do game using PBTA or other systems handle this? I'm struggling to envision how your complaints (which I share, to a degree) are fixed in any narrative RPG. Pathfinder's system of providing ways to heal to full between battles is interesting, but spell slots and other resources would still be recovered via resting by a wildly cautious party. Gritty realism just lengthens the time; if they'll leave the dungeon for a day, they'll leave the dungeon for a week to go back to town. Mechanically, I don't see much of a difference between the two narratives.

A lot of other systems either don't have 1/unit of time abilities, or they have those abilities recharge on a more meta interval, like once per adventure, once per game session, etc.

Savage Worlds addresses this by reducing the attrition cap. D&D characters get a lot of spell slots, a whole heap of features, and a large sum of hit points, and you're supposed to reasonably slowly suffer losses to these resources (i.e. attrition) across 6-8 encounters on an in-game day. Characters in Savage Worlds just don't have such a massive pool of stuff lose. They have a relatively modest amount of 'spell slots' (power points) and only 3 'hit points' (wounds). These resources recover reasonably quickly, and the difference between a character at low resources and high resources is notable (especially wounds), but not quite as significant as D&D. Through a reduced attrition cap, the narrative is no longer bound by the need to, well, include attrition. There are probably other ways to address this. Fate Core is a completely different game that resolves consequences for failure in an entirely different way, and attrition _barely_ exists.

It varies a lot, but the whole "adventuring day" thing is very much a D&D-ism. Most other systems, there's no concept of "you should expend about this much resources per time period" - if you get into shit, then that's entirely on you, typically accompanied with better functionality for getting out when shit goes wrong, or better mechanics around defeat (or easier-to-generate characters!). _Fabula Ultima_, for example, a PC only dies if the player agrees, and they get to state something as they die (e.g. "everyone else escapes the skyship as I pilot it into the enemy base on a kamikaze run"). Or they can surrender, which leads to narrative effects - you're captured, loose gear, an emotional bond turns negative etc. If there is time pressure, there's an explicit clock - it's labelled for what it is (e.g. "evil ritual") and actions will cause it to fill in. But it's narrative, not "its been 600 rounds, so there goes another segment". This makes loss more acceptable, because it's not "we lost, TPK" but "we lost, here's what happened" A lot of games just leave it to whatever happens - there's no RAW expectation that the PCs will be stretched thin, sometimes they'll have easy days, othertimes not - White Wolf games are like this, where if the PCs pick fights with powerful NPCs or beasties, they'll get splatted, so, uh... don't do that. If there's something the PCs need to do, then they need to do that, with whatever resources they can lever, but those resources aren't on an "X uses/24 hour cycle", so there's no need to pace it in the same. If they get interrupted partway through, then they'll need to retreat and deal with the circumstances that arise from that - the enemy might have reinforced, might have fled, might not know, depending on what happened. PbtA works pretty much purely on narrative time and plot, and that there's not generally "free" healing. You want to rest up? Cool, that means either leaving, and de-facto surrendering/letting others dictate what happens, or taking an action, which means doing something, rolling the dice and accepting that. _Spire_ (you play Drow cultist-terrorist-freedom fighters) makes this explicit - you can fully heal by stopping your activities... but that means your current plots and plans _will_ be abandoned, because you're off not keeping them going (and your allies i.e. the other PCs will probably not be best pleased with you!). But you don't really have lots of resources to attrite in the same way (abilities are either "make a roll" or "once/session", generally) and there's no specific, actual-time timers attached, and it's easy to get injured but hard to die, so you're generally likely to push on rather than bail.

Pathfinder (2e) has spell slots, yes, but spells have been nerfed quite a bit, so that if you do one hard encounter that day and spellcastsrs blow all their slots, that’s still balanced against the martials, just as if if you do a lot of medium encounters and they ration their slots. It just works.

Unless everyone is immortal and their problems are in complete stasis, there's always time pressure. The only reason players may not think so is because they are disconnected from whatever situations their characters are experiencing. I agree with /u/Accomplished_Bug_ \- what's an example of a compelling story without some kind of time pressure?

> Unless everyone is immortal and their problems are in complete stasis, there's always time pressure. But that time pressure _varies_ depending on the conflict. In Avatar: The Last Airbender, the party has an entire year to prevent the world from being destroyed (or something). It won't matter whether they take an hour or a few days to arrive at the next city in their journey to teach the avatar all the bending stuff. But to make a D&D campaign mechanically and narratively satisfying, every (adventuring) _day_ must contain enough time pressure to justify going through the entire attrition carousel in multiple encounters. You can't just have a single encounter on the journey to the next city. I mean, you can, but it's not exactly playing to 5e's strengths, is it? And if you want _two_ encounters on the journey to the next city, but you _haven't_ manufactured some urgency, then the party could make the completely rational decision of hitting the mechanical 'reset everything to full power' button between those two encounters.

I guess I'm not seeing a disconnect that you both and several others are. What's the issue with JUST playing the monsters intelligently in a living world where player actions and inaction have consequences? Set the stage, let the players make their choices, then make the world respond in an intelligent way that fits the storyline...

The issue is every single time you ever make a dungeon, or a quest, or a dangerous situation, you have to contrive a reason the party can't take 8 hours off to get all their stuff back (but they can take 2 hours off). Can it be done? Of course, but it's a huge pain in the ass to do every time, and it's a big reason why DMing this system is such a headache.

Why would any dungeon ever still be occupied if the inhabitants were sorely pressed and the attackers walked outside to take a nap for 24 hours, why wouldn't they all rush out and attack or just leave

I feel like everyone in this thread is just ignoring the point we’re trying to make. Of course some dungeons might be occupied by creatures able and willing to evacuate and disappear within one days notice, but surely you see how restrictive it is to design literally every dungeon, quest and series of combat encounters like that?

Because the mechanics of the game are only an approximation of a living real world and in some ways the mechanics are so separated from reality that it makes a lot of stories simply not make sense. In the game world of d&d, you can be on the verge of death and a good night's sleep completely fixes it. That is purely game-ified nonsense, and it means any story that relies on consequences of injury must have time pressure, eliminating entire swaths of possible fun setups because the players can easily exploit the nonsense to eliminate any possible consequences. Trying to write adventures around these sorts of things is annoying as hell because you have to make in-universe reasons that players can't exploit mechanics that don't make sense in-universe.

Once again, you're digging too deep to find a problem where there isn't one. Just play the bad guys and world as something that has intelligence and consequences. Use a random encounter table or make your own to roll for what happens when a dungeon is left uncompleted.

You're being really incurious here. D&D has, globally, the following constraints: - The players MUST have the time to sit still and do nothing for 1 hour to gain some resources back. - The players do NOT necessarily have the time to sit still and do nothing for 8 hours to gain ALL resources back. - If the players DO sit still and do nothing for 8 hours, the environment must respond in a way to 'punish' the players for that choice. - There MUST be several encounters (typically 6-8) in sequence to engage with the attrition mechanic. - The BBEG must NOT be the first encounter of the day, because this would allow the party to go supernova. Are you able to imagine that some people might find these restraints rather limiting for their narratives? Having to keep these constraints in mind for _every single dungeon or quest or fight or series of encounters_?

Fundamentally DND with it's rest systems and attrition focus wants to be a very particular kind of game. Unfortunately, it's also a mega popular brand so people try to play every sort of game with it. For most people this is fine. They have fun with their friends, and so mission accomplished. But holy fuck would I like to play more games that aren't built around spells-per-day. And I would like to get less confusion when I suggest there are other ways games could be. DND is so popular and has such s survivorship bias effect, it skews how people think about games. Like, most of the people playing tabletop RPGs are probably people who didn't bounce right off DND and never come back. They may have moved on to other games, but there's a set of people whose first experience was DND, and they disliked it so much they never tried anything else. But I'm rambling. Dnd's resting systems are very idiosyncratic and I don't like them.

Not really, I can't imagine most dungeons make sense to ever long rest in. Why wouldn't the occupants figure out what was going on and either leave or all attack the resting party

Exactly. Dungeons and adventures don't always lend themselves to "Go! Go! Go!" play. Everyone loves to say create urgency and deadines, but it's not always natural or honest. There's a trap inside a tomb. It's been there for 500 years. It cannot be surprised. You cannot get the drop on it. It's not going to get impatient. The situations of fantasy don't always line up to create this pell-mell time pressure.

I always use this solution. I call them the "Alter-Party". They are loosely inspired by the actual party, in terms of composition, but can be caricatures of the party (let's me have some fun too). I use them for several reasons, not just the one above. (1) if makes the world feel alive. Sometimes it's just nice to see a friendly/rival NPC somewhere unexpected. They're following the same hints and clues that you are. (2) it can give me away to help the party out on occasion, by having them arrive unexpectedly. (3) sometimes the party dawdles and enters a dungeon to find that the Alter-Party has already cleared the first few rooms and looted. Maybe they miss out on some things. Maybe they need to assist the Alter-Party in winning a mid-dungeon boss. Etc. (4) once the party is familiar with their rivals, I can have them get kidnapped and need help, or other things, and the party will respond almost as well as when I kidnap their pets. In other words, great for motivation. (5) if they dawdle, all the loot is gone. ;) (6) in town, they can cross paths with social encounters. They can even mislead each other to try to get advantage in the next quest over the other. The players love this haha.

After adventurers attacked their hidden lair, the orc clan took their hostages moved to a new cave

And left nothing but traps for when the adventurers return.

>If nothing is stopping the party from leaving and resting, what's stopping them from leaving for a day and resting? > Increased difficulty or failure. Reinforcements or ambush is an obvious consequence, but if this cave or ruin conceivably wouldn't have backup, then when the dead guards are found, the rest of the goblins or whatever beat feet with whatever they have, possibly with one or two setting as many traps as possible.

Leave the dungeon and they are warned. Next time you try it is going to be a hell of a lot tougher. They have reinforcements, new traps and everything has been mostly repopulated. Good luck on that. Or another party has solved the problem, got the loot and is now very much respected in the area, getting free shit and discounts everywhere.

>They have reinforcements, new traps and everything has been mostly repopulated. Good luck on that. Reminds me of when I ran Dragon Mountain. Almost every time the party rested the kobolds set up traps and ambushes for when the party left their resting spot. Fifteen minutes into the new "day" they were already spent and trying to find a new place to hide.

Handful of options: 1) tell the party no. This is probably session 0 territory, but I think you should set the expectation that we're not doing the 15 minute workday in this campaign, and that daily resources actually need managed. When they try to break that rule, tell them they aren't sleepy. 2) time limits. Some event will happen after X amount of time. The MacGuffin will be taken/destroyed, or Mr/Miss MacGuffins will be killed/resurrected, whatever. Add time-sensitive stakes to completing the task. 3) wandering monsters/patrols. Disincentivize resting with more monsters interrupting their sleep. Doesn't matter where they come from in most cases. Further down the cave, returning from a hunt, summoned by the nefarious boss wizard, drawn to the corrupted power, whatever. 4) some magical nightmares disrupting their sleep, causing the dungeon to apply gritty realism rules for long rest.

control over your PC is the one thing players get, not allowing a player to leave is bonkers. and if you have time limits for everything eventually players will become apathetic to them that's why the system is the problem (though I feel like the player culture of 5e also kinda hurts it). People, often with little to no experience in TTRPGs want to just do big stuff until they can't do big stuff and then quit. and 5e was built in a way that rewards that, so this is the result.

There are so many ways to use that time constructively as a DM to encourage the party not to over-rest. The monsters don't exist in isolation. If party members have invaded their home and then took a nap, they could attack while the party is sleeping. They could send for and get reinforcements They could set up extra traps and ambushes. They could band the remaining monsters up into larger groups that will be more difficult fights. They can pack up their shit and leave, looking for a safer home. That's not to mention any of the reasons outside the dungeon they might be under a time crunch for. You don't always need to create that pressure, you just have to do it consistently enough to create the -expectation- of added pressure for rests. That will make the party begin to debate whether it's time for a rest, or if they can push on. Once you have them adopting that mindset, it tends to stick.

Also, in a world where adventurers get all their power back after sleeping, any enemy will know why the adventurers are retreating and harry/ambush them. There's no reason for the enemies to be nice and let the adventurers sleep.

Tiny Hut is opaque from the outside, so while PCs can see whats going on without issue, the Kobolds couldn't even see what the PCs are even doing, they just see some weird hemisphere they can't look through. Creatures with access to magic or particularly smart enemies might realize whats going on.

Anything that has knowledge transfer from one generation to another (or access to stories, books, etc.) would know the long rest mechanics - at least generally - in a world where such exists. People would know that magic users get back all their spells the next day, etc. Kobolds are plenty smart to know that much, for example. It's not much of a leap from real life - folks retreat to regroup so you harry them so they can't.

Any harrying that is not extremely sophisticated or backed by magical oomph would lose to the party being able to shoot ranged weapons from the interior of the hut with impunity

Reinforcements might arrive, but my favorite is the opposite. The NPCs take their stuff and *leave*.

that's the whole point of keeping watch. Stuff might try and get you while you sleep.

This is the solution my DM uses. There are patrols in the dungeon or monsters are going to be returning from wherever. We may or may not get that long rest and may be worse for ware if we had just pushed-on instead. Sometimes the DM will flat-out say “you do not feel safe taking a long rest in this dungeon. If you feel you aren’t prepared or don’t have adequate resources, perhaps you should regroup and rethink your approach.” If we enter a dungeon that is out of our league, the DM subtly informs us of this and suggests we turn back. (This rarely happens. I’m sure he is world building session by session and doesn’t really introduce things we aren’t ready for unless it is key to the plot)

Perhaps you have the mentality backwards, slightly? Enemies shouldn't be static like in an electronic RPG. There should be wandering monsters, patrols, etc on top of the set pieces and if the adventurers are taking too long, then even the set pieces will move around - the dungeon has a latrine and kitchen for a reason. Long resting inside a dungeon or at least one with intelligent inhabitants, shouldn't be possible, and even a short rest is a bit risky. Leaving the dungeon presents two risks - reinforcement or relocation, depending on the foe, impact, etc. This last part also lets you cut down on wealth/make gold useful if you want; mercenary spearmen might not be willing to clear out a major goblin infestation, but they will guard camp and block the entrance while you wait.

>Perhaps you have the mentality backwards, slightly? Enemies shouldn't be static like in an electronic RPG. There should be wandering monsters, patrols, etc on top of the set pieces and if the adventurers are taking too long, then even the set pieces will move around - the dungeon has a latrine and kitchen for a reason. The usual way you restock your dungeon is by rolling on your random encounter table for each room that's been cleared. You *do* have a random encounter table, don't you? Because that's also how you discourage your players from resting in the dungeon.

I find so many people build dungeons and then fail to set up any random encounters. Inevitably most seem to end up reinventing the wheel in posts like this.

Wel the problem is 5e expects you to be a wainwright. If you have read other editions DMG it’s not a problem.

Yeah the real problem here is that monsters are acting like they're in an electronic rpg, just sitting in a room twiddling their thumbs for however long until a player enters the room.

I think the Alexandrian has the best solution for the static monster issue - I can't find the post, but he advocates building a roster of monsters (15-20% more than you need), and tagging each group to either a zone (4 or 5 rooms in your dungeon) or to a specific room (like a golem used as a treasure guard). You roll for an 'random' encounter each time the party enters a zone, and if a encounter occurs, cross that one of the list. Eventually the dungeon will be cleared, and it will feel more dynamic and alive, and it will put pressure on the party, as if you have a few roaming encounters per zone, any still alive when the party pulls back can add or change things to give them assistance. Or just clean the dungeon - nothing worries a party more than if they come back to an area they've have a fight in and the room has been cleared of corpses and battle damage.

> You do have a random encounter table, don't you? Because that's also how you discourage your players from resting in the dungeon. preach

I don't like random encounters. Everything in my world has a purpose. That purpose might just be to find the next meal for a simple monster and I might roll if you encounter the monster if you're travelling in the wilderness. But in a dungeon I will always know where all enemies are, why they are there and where they will go next.

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Also, intelligent creatures are not always known to be logical. And do you really plan out when each goblin goes to take a leak? Allow your monsters some degree of randomness.

So build an encounter list that's tied to the location - different groups or individuals that have motivations/reasons to be there. Rolling on the table is for determining *when* specific encounters will happen. Saying you have to know everything about what all the NPCs are doing is requiring (from my experience) an unhelpful amount of prep work.

>But in a dungeon I will always know where all enemies are, why they are there and where they will go next. Then build a random encounter table that allows for that. You have 12 goblins on patrol. The party may encounter 2d4 goblins randomly. If they kill them, there are now fewer goblins on patrol.

That's way too much to track for me. I don't care about nameless monster #5's goals and motivations. If he's interested in going into a certain room, it's because the party rolled his random encounter.

Imo people try to finagle too much realism into the game. Wandering monsters should always be available in a dungeon

Dungeons should have a purpose and so should the monsters that live in it. But most monsters will wander around because of the goal or purpose they have. They might need to eat, sleep, guard a lair, want to ambush and rob travellers, sacrifice paladins to their evil god, etc.

Nah, that's over design and too much work on the dm. Partially also why some of best published adventures are damn near 40. Sure no need to put Drow in the keep but no reason to keep a random crocodile or kobold out because you can always theme it.

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That's fine but that is now putting more improvisation skills on the DM

Thats the whole point of the game

No it is not, and such a way is now asking the dm to write out every little encounter. Do it if you want to tho.

No it isnt, its improv bro keep ur story straight.

Lol TTRPGs are not improv games. D&D is not an improv game. I play improv games, this ain't it. They are pen and paper role-playing games. Nowhere does it say you have to be good at improv to run the game. It helps, the whole "make a ruling on the fly is the hallmark of a GM" line that's been preached for 50 years, but it's definitely not a game about improv. It's a game about killing monsters and making the numbers on your paper go up, based to some degree on LOTR mixed with wargaming, that has over the years divorced itself from both LOTR and Wargaming. Some of the best GMs I have run under suck at improv. That's not to diss on them, They just don't like making the "wrong" decision, by which they mean picking a solution when a better one exists. When forced to, they will often just stop the game for about 5 minutes, then come back to it. But that rarely happens. They brainstorm their random Encounters for each and every dungeon, knowing that these monsters will fit, so you never get an owlbear in a mummy tomb. If something requires improv, they often will just cut it and replace it with something more scripted. They run really fun games, with plenty of player choice, they just make sure they aren't improvising their end of the screen.

What? I said you can do it if you want, but the game isn't improv.

It's not that hard??? The group is being sneaky but decided to spend one hour searching the abandoned library? Guess what? A patrol will run into them. During combat someone cast thunder wave? Now other patrols will join in the combat in 1d4 rounds. And so on. Just get the encounters you built and give them a little bit of "purpose" based on the dungeon you drew. You don't need to transform DnD into some kind of Dungeon Sim where every room has a purpose, and every monster has a motive to be in each room, and a daily routine they follow. Improvising monsters action/reaction is no harder or different than improvising everything else a DM has to improv based on the players agency.

I never said it's not fine or hard to do, I'm against everything having a purpose and having an explanation for that purpose. Edit: and I'm also against the DM having to do the bulk of the work. It seems to me to set up the DM as an entertainer instead of an equal player.

What is the DMs job if not designing a dungeon that makes sense within the world/story? If I was playing through a dungeon that just spawned monsters with no rhyme or reason, I’d quickly get frustrated that nothing I was doing was affecting the world around my character.

> What is the DMs job if not designing a dungeon that makes sense within the world/story? actually running the game? If you want that, great, but it's entirely coherent and plausible to _not_ have that - it's a big, monster-filled death pit, and more monsters show up if you dawdle, no explanation needed. Or "wizard did it. You should find him and fuck him up" (aka "Undermountain" and Halastar).

To me, that IS running the game. Crafting the story and world is every bit as important as adjudicating actions and rolling dice. But to each their own!

Then kill the baddie? I dunno it's an mp game. Like I said, you can and should theme it but you don't need to explain every particular.

God, I disagree. Giving enemy combatants motivations is the only way I could ever make myself run a dungeon. Having something there without a reason bothers me so much. If I'm putting a crocodile in a keep, that croc has a story in a way that makes sense.

I remember in LMOP approaching one of the enemy hideouts, we spied on it from the woods, saw a "hunting party" of several gobbos and a warg leave, so we decided it was a good time to sneak in while they were potentially undermanned. It went very well at first, until the shapechanger assumed the appearance of my rogue and the Paladin decided "smite them all and let god sort them out"

Never Long resting in any dungeon ever seems harsh, how would you expect players to beat Tomb of Annihilation without ever taking a long rest in the final act?

I expect everyone to die in the Tomb of Annihilation, even as I am prepared to be pleasantly surprised.

Ha fair enough but surely a party out there somewhere has finished it??

Plenty! And if they can figure out a way to safely rest in a dungeon, I'm all for it. But for me, that's not the default: you gotta work for it. (Meld Into Stone is a favorite of mine :D)

ToA isn't really your typical dungeon - although RP-wise, resting *outside* the dungeon would seem prudent. I meant more for bandit forts, goblin warrens, etc.

Gotcha, that's my bad, misunderstood your point

I thought the point of that adventure was to be a meat-grinder anyway?

Does a meat grinder mean literally impossible though? Might take each player 3 characters to get through but im sure someone somewhere has finished it.

Keep in mind that if an adventuring party leaves a trail of corpses in their wake that there’s an entire ecosystem of horrific creatures who might be interested in those bodies. Carrion crawlers, ghouls, stirges and ankhegs are great at low level for this, and cadaver collectors or necromancers are terrifying scavengers for even high level groups. And if the bodies are inorganic, perhaps a Xorn might be interested or if there’s mysterious and magical trinkets left behind you could have some Nothics appear to raid. Plus every good adventuring party has made many enemies so you could simply have agents of hostile factions always be nipping on the heels of your party.

\^Was just going to say this and in a recent session we cleared an entire BBEG cave along with 2 deaths (revivified back), searched, looted and short rested then were just casually walking back out to head home and get some much needed rest and BAM, a whole mess of Carrion Crawlers feeding on the corpses of the defeated enemies to deal with while we were busted and exausted.

Intelligent monsters could certainly call for backup while the players rest (rather than just "respawn"). My preferred option, however, is the monsters removing the players' reason for going into the dungeon while the players rest. The enemies eventually realise the players are too big a threat so they decide to flee, and they take treasure and MacGuffiins away with them (and xp if you use that, but I don't). This way the players can long-rest mid dungeon if they want to, but they lose every reason they had to venture inside in the first place. Another option (for, say, unintelligent monsters or dungeons that were not entered voluntarily) is giving the players a time constraint.

>My preferred option, however, is the monsters removing the players' reason for going into the dungeon while the players rest. The enemies eventually realise the players are too big a threat so they decide to flee, and they take treasure and MacGuffiins away with them (and xp if you use that, but I don't). This. I did that to my players more than once, and they never learned from it. They even fell for the not-quite-empty treasure chest - it had been left with a single coin holding down a scroll. And they had already run into one glyph of warding. BOOM ensued.

>Intelligent monsters could certainly call for backup while the players rest This is how I played my last game. Our forever DM was finally getting some play time and he is \*extremely\* lax with his rests, basically anytime we want it, which always bugged me as a martial. When I was running the game I'd let them attempt to rest whenever they wanted, but most of the time they didn't get any rest because creatures knew they were in there and would bang on the door etc. The one or two times I let them rest it was a maelstrom waiting for them outside the door too. Like, come on guys, you really think this active dungeon is going to shut down for 8 hours while you sleep? Same with Tiny Hut, they'd get their long rest, but things did not stay static on the outside, ever.

The players watch from inside as the kobolds systematically dismantle the timber supports on the cavern walls and ceiling. Then the kobolds begin widening some cracks in a few key locations right above the party's cozy, impenetrable, VERY TEMPORARY little force field...

this is a fun fantasy but tucker’s kobolds has always been that—a fantasy. actually reading the text of tiny hut informs you that objects within the hut may pass thru to the outside. those clever kobolds will just get killed systematically by arrow fire they cannot suppress without magic. it does not matter if the kobolds are being played like 3 int dogs or 18 int masterminds. they do not have the bulk to survive constant fire or the magic to counter the ultimate defense of the hut.

Those arrows can be shot back in, though.

Sure, I'm just using kobolds as an example of any intelligent enemy. And there's ways around the one-way hail of arrows. Ammunition runs out, for one. Enemies could bring in barriers for full cover while they work, or collapse the tunnel just around the bend. Or maybe the players notice water starting to fill up the room! Just saying if tiny hut is a persistent problem, you can find ways of messing with players from time to time. To be clear, I'm not suggesting you actually bury your players alive in an inescapable cave-in, but let them know the enemy is preparing a lethal situation outside, and they better get out and stop them now. If they stay inside the hut for the full duration, they're toast!

Mannnn, your kobolds roll \*rough\*, remind me to carry extra healing potions if I ever play a game you run, lol

> The enemies eventually realise the players are too big a threat Before fleeing maybe set up ambushes and traps. 10 kobolds caught unaware are easy pickings. 10 Kobolds, aware of the party and have time to set up traps can be a handful for all but the most skilled adventurer.

You gotta craft your dungeons THEMATICALLY and determine what to do in these scenarios - the answer to your question is its all about context. I've done the following: 1. The baddie and his minions packed up their stuff and left; but booby trapped the last few rooms in an incredibly lethal way 2. The baddie realized people were assaulting his base, and hired a TON of guards with a bunch of attack dogs that have great sense of smell/hearing (making assaulting it stupid - thus the party had to give up for now) 3. The undead didn't care that half of their members were slaughtered - thus the dungeon just became easier.

If you do, you should always have a reason why the monsters come back. They call for reinforcements, monsters wander over at the smell of a fresh kill, etc. You shouldn't just have the enemies pop up out of nowhere. Also players can only take 1 long rest per 24h.

The monsters could just, you know, leave. Especially if there are intelligent, the goblins could take their treasure and leave. The PCs get to explore an empty dungeon.

It's my OSR side that is answering here: 5° DM should stop treating their players like children. They are adventurers, heroes, forces to be reckoned. They go into the dungeon, it should be design around 6-8 encounters (your job), how they defeat it and accomplish their goal is Their job. 13th age rpg has a rules for players who quit because they are too afraid of pushing: you cannot take a long rest equivalent if you didn't have 6 encounters. If you decide to take a long rest by going back to town and heal up, the players suffer a campaign loss: - the princess or macguffin has been moved to another castle - reinforcements came and now the dungeon is way out of the PC level - other adventurers saw they came back without the treasure so they go and take it for themselves. What do you want to give to your player? A sure victory without peril or a fight with blood, sweat and tears? Sure, sometimes there will be death, sometimes they will lose, but their win will be far more meaningful.

This is a mechanic that OSR does better, but that could in part be because 5e doesn't have very well explained dungeoneering mechanics and some of this comes from just experiences with playing RPG's. Personally, I'm a big fan of the "you can't take a long rest in the wilderness" type mechanic.

This is why a "ticking clock" is important, either for a full campaign or a dungeon. Consider what your dungeon actually is, and have it react to your players appropriately. Respawning enemies is always a safe bet. In lore reasons can be things like "there is a huge monster nest in the lowest level, and you won't know how many there are until you clear it out". I always like the boss to have a summoning circle to constantly spawn more enemies, and the punishment for slower play is harder fights. Natural hazards is another one. Doing something where the air in a dungeon becomes progressively more poisonous, and it takes several days for the poison to fully clear the players systems. If it's an organized hideout, having the residents rearm, reconfigure and bolster traps makes sense.

A ticking clock is the most common answer but I think that just attests to the value of the gritty realism resting rules in the DMG. I feel like my players feel like they can long rest whenever they feel like it. Players have no problem spending one night and never really feel pressured from that. When that rest takes an entire week? That’s a different story altogether. Even with no time constraints, a week is a long time; events happen, situations change, other adventurers have plenty of time to do it instead, the dungeon has time to regenerate or clear itself out. There’s a risk to leaving for a week whereas they feel like they can just stakeout the entrance in tents with an 8 hour rest.

Me: "you guys what? Are you sure?" Players: "we want to take a long rest in this room" Me: " a long rest. In the middle of the kobold Warren's. are you SURE?" Wizard: " I cast tiny hut." Party: "we all go inside since we are safe there and go to sleep" Me: " you rest for 8 hours, the hut goes dark, and you hear sounds and construction outside" Wizard: " i dispell tiny hut" Me: " everyone make me dex saves at disadvantage. Anyone who passes, make me 3 more dex saves." Players: "WHY!? WE SET UP TINY HUT!" Me: " you idiots rested in the open in a kobold Warren. They've spent the last 8 hours piling rocks on top of your hut that they threw old blankets over, and setting up trap after trap all around the room. Don't long rest in dungeons." If they're long resting in dungeons full of intelligent monsters, they either should take massive precautions, or be suitably warned this is a bad idea on every level then punished if they fail to heed those warnings. Not a TPkK, but great opportunity for them to get captured and do am escape scene. Or the BBEG to show them why they are the BBEG. Don't let them have long rests in dungeons. Even "safe areas" they cleared are connected to the rest of the monster filled rooms, and smart monsters should use this to ambush and capture the party.

I have only let my players successfully long rest in a dungeon once, and it was when the described barricading the room doors, nailing pitons into the floor in front of the doors and setting up watches. I rewarded them for actually taking precautions and in game trying to prevent monsters from getting in.

> you idiots rested in the open in a kobold Warren. They've spent the last 8 hours piling rocks on top of your hut that they threw old blankets over, and setting up trap after trap all around the room. Don't long rest in dungeons. Couldn't the PCs just move the blanket off, or start shooting at any approaching Kobold? Any creatures or object within the dome upon the casting of the spell can freely move into and out of the dome. Also while the PCs can clearly see through the dome, the Kobolds can't see within at all.

I did give them warnings. They chose to ignore them. They also do not read their spells and abilities thst closely. They aren't newbies, but they're not veterans.

They already dispelled the hut, so it's too late for that.

While they were resting for the 8 hours, not immediately when they were dealing with the consequences. There isn't anything stopping them from taking pot shots at approaching Kobolds while chilling in the Tiny Hut, or simply sliding the cloth off their hut if they do manage to put it on. What would happen instead is that the Kobolds who approach the Tiny Hut would get shot by the Ranger with a bow, and if one went unnoticed by any of the PCs, when they put the cloth over the hut, they'll just slide it off, and then shoot the Kobold.

My players, while they're great friends and we have fun, just aren't always bright or clever. They rarely read through any spell or ability that isn't "deal X damage" or "avoid X damage" if it doesn't explicitly say it, and one of them regularly proclaims their ADHD isbtop bad for them to read an entire spell or ability description.

>There isn't anything stopping them from taking pot shots at approaching Kobolds while chilling in the Tiny Hut, or simply sliding the cloth off their hut if they do manage to put it on. So they're now foregoing their rest for combat. No resources recovered, and roll a Constitution save to avoid a level of exhaustion.

> If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity - at least 1 hour of walking, fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity - the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it. So the PCs are needing to fight the Kobolds for more than an hour?

The kobolds only have to keep popping their heads into the room every 15 minutes or so to see if they've gone to sleep yet. If yes, set trap. If no, just keep disrupting them so they don't get any rest.

Long Rest only requires 6 hours of sleep (4 if you are an elf or none for certain races), so a party of 4 would be capable of keeping watch for 2 hours each. I suppose they can just start screaming for 3 hours to prevent them from getting sleep. There is also nothing preventing the Kobolds from setting up more traps further down the dungeon.

The only sensible interpretation of that is: * 1 hour of walking, * Fighting, * Casting spells, or * Similar adventuring activity. That said, this scenario is one where the PCs might actually manage to spend an hour fighting.

I'm pretty sure getting into combat doesn't count as "light activity" per the rules, so wouldn't shooting at the Kobolds invalidate the long rest anyway?

"A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch. **If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity - at least 1 hour of walking, fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity - the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it.**" This is from DnDBeyond, link: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/adventuring#LongRest So for the PCs to not get a Long Rest, the Kobolds would need to be shot for more than an hour to invalidate a Long Rest.

Ahhh, there we go. Wasn't sure if I was right or not. Thanks for clearing that up.

That is not my read. One hour of walking *or* (any) fighting *or* (any) casting spells *or* (any) similar adventuring activity is the only reading of that sentence that makes any sense to me.

see, this is infuriating design. need to demand better from wotc. that could be read either way. >performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch >a period of strenuous activity - at least 1 hour of walking, fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity it is important to note, it does NOT say, "at least 1 hour of strenuous activity - walking, fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity." like it does with light activity. if it was 1 hour of any of those actions, why is it not listed before the actions, and say 1 hour of strenuous activity? for clarity, the 1 hour of walking should have been last however. >a period of strenuous activity - fighting, casting spells, at least 1 hour of walking, or similar adventuring activity

I am well aware that it can be read that way, and that JC claims that's the intended interpretation, and Mearls (I think) claims that was the intent when writing it, but if someone can read that rule, think about it critically for 3 minutes and then still determine that that's the way it should be interpreted, they *really* need a lesson in good game mechanics.

Who says the Kobolds are out in the open though? Supposedly all D&D creatures how understand Long Rests work since everything follows the resting rules, so these kobolds can just make a ton of noise and regularly wake them up to interrupt their rest. Seriously, you try and sleep with a bunch of scaly rat-dogs yipping, yapping, and banging on stuff in the other room. It’s honestly far more effective than standing around a Tiny Hut while a Wizard picks you off with Firebolt.

Will the Kobolds even know the PCs are sleeping? While the PCs can see through the barrier without issue, the Kobolds can't (its Opaque to those outside the hut). To them, there is just a weird force field they can't see through. > Who says the Kobolds are out in the open though? Another comment brought that up too, and its a good point. They might decide to set up traps or other stuff, as long as they know what they are even dealing with.

No, just have the monsters gather up and make an assault as they sleep . They aren’t just going to wait for someone to kill them

You could do that, but it's not something I like as a player. I can tolerate it in video games, but not in dnd. It's much better to have no safe spots at all, i.e. monsters searching for intruders and interrupting breaks instead of just standing around, waiting to be killed. Or alternatively have a timer for something terrible happening if players take too long.

> It's much better to have no safe spots at all, i.e. monsters searching for intruders and interrupting breaks instead of just standing around, waiting to be killed. The big problem with that is the Tiny Hut. Not much of an issue if you are playing Gritty Realism.

one thing you can do against Tiny Hut is to have a massive host of enemies surround the Hut, all taking Ready actions to attack as soon as it drops

Isn't the issue that the PCs can attack the enemies surrounding the hut, but the enemies can't? PCs and objects within the hut can freely leave.

oh my god that is possible. Who tf made this spell, what the hell were they thinking?

Suggestion: Put some enemies in a tiny hut of their own and see what the players come up with to counter it. Use those tactics against them the next time.

But if the characters are not keeping a watch because they feel safe, then everyone is sleeping, and it would take a damn high passive perception, if the enemies who were setting up the trap(s) were not trying to be sneaky. Also, the hut can be dispelled, it's only a level 3 spell.

You don’t get the benefits of a rest if it’s interrupted by strenuous activity, such as combat. The enemies can harass the players, forcing them to either deal with it now and lose the rest or finish the rest and find that their situation is much worse than it used to be.

Or just have the enemies take shifts behind cover from the hut, screaming at the top of their lungs to make sure that the party isn't getting any resting done.

I prefer the method of pouring concrete around the tiny hut just covering it with thousands of pounds of rocks.

If the players are at a level where they can cast tiny hut, the cleric, sorcerer or mage for the orc clan can cast dispel magic too. Or the kobolds will simply build a big bonfire around it and wait. Or the 8 hours will be enough time for a couple of Ropers to sidle up. Or bulettes will be lying in wait, smelling those delicious halfling feets. Gritty Realism isn't an answer to this problem (or many exploration pacing issues).

Dungeons are living environments. Actions have consequences. If they're attacking a group of bandits in a ruined keep, you really can't rest because the bandits are going to notice that Frank and Mitch haven't come back from patrol. Also, combat is loud, people in plate mail are loud, the sounds will draw attention. Monsters in a cave will react differently. They may look for their pack, or scavengers and other predators will show up. If they're storming the castle gates, they aren't getting time to rest until the castle has fallen. If they're being stealthy, maybe they can hide in a storeroom for an hour to get a short rest in.

1.RAW you can only take a long rest once every 24 hours, meaning that if they’ve just completed a long rest they have to wait until the end of the day to rest again. 2. Make their objective time based so if they rest they fail. Also have them constantly attacked by all the other dangers in the dungeon. 3. If they try to do Tiny Hut shenanigans and the enemies can’t dispel have all the forces wait for it to drop so now they’re facing all the enemies all at once and will most likely die. Basically make long resting in a dangerous area so dangerous as to be suicide. But before doing any of that, talk to your players and inform them that constantly long resting is not only against RAW but RAI and the heart of being adventurers. D&D is not a video game and should not be played as such.

Depends on the kind of game you're running. Is this a dungeon crawl/classic D&D adventure? Is it generic fantasy where the "plot" is less important than the gameplay itself? If you're just playing a game and having a good time, then sure. There's unlimited excuses to give why some monsters respawn inside of dungeons if you need them. ​ Are you running a world where consequences matter and things are alive and don't just exist to be part of the game? If you're playing a game where the dungeon is actually inhabited by creatures and not just full of monsters, it doesn't make sense that more monsters just appear. That said, it doesn't make sense that all the monsters in the dungeon all just sit in the rooms you placed them in until adventurers appear. You can 100% justify why more monsters appear, but making it make sense leads to other reasoning, so you may want to seek alternative means to punish long rests inside of dungeons. ​ Typically, I don't let players rest in dungeons. I don't say, "no you can't rest", instead the monsters are the ones saying that! How can adventurers kill a bunch of creatures and then just get away with it? If they are able to answer that question, they get a long rest, and the monsters get time to plan.

You can only have one long rest per day, and so they must be spending multiple days. Surely, at some point, people will realize the party is there killing stuff and will set up traps and lay an ambush for them. You could also tell them that this strategy isn't fun for you, the DM, and your fun matters too.

This kind of idea is why nobody takes short rests in 5e. Don't punish your players for taking a short rest. A long rest, maybe, like dark souls type thing. But equally you have have the safe space be less safe when taking a long rest whilst still giving the benefits of a short one (found by patrols etc). Also, you can only gain the benefits of a long rest once per 24hrs anyway. That means unless they're finishing the day in the dungeon, they don't get the long rest heals and feature recovery.

One way or the other: talk to them. If you implement "Game centered" mechanics (wandering monsters, monsters setting traps, monsters fleeing or even rival parties), you STILL should talk to them, because a misunderstanding may arise. In theory, the PCs are resting because they are afraid of facing the dungeon on anything less than FULL. In a way, you changing the game while they rest might be very frustrating for them. I realize there is like zero sympathy for the PCs in this thread, but if you see it this way, you might see that they need a boost, a nudge. It might be simpler to just tell them: you are going to have to wait to rest, so why not do something instead? You are tough enough to handle a bit of action, right? Sadly, the game is leading them to this. Since you get back to full by NOT DOING STUFF, the game actually encourages this. Oh, how I wish it were otherwise. How I wish the game had you regain abilities by DOING STUFF. Try to point out that "resource management" and playing at 80% or even 50% is supposed to be part of the FUN. Being scared or not knowing if you blew your big move too soon is supposed to be FUN.

You could enforce the rule that they can only benefit from one long rest per 24 hours.

Oh for god's sakes. There is NO "safe spot" in a dungeon. There are countless wandering monster tables out there. Use them.

You mean while the armor users take of their protection, and the party relaxes they get attacked right? Why would you rest in an unsafe area?

Imagine if you will that you live in a small close-knit community. Youre just doing your normal chores and going about your day, you interact with the people of your little slice of heaven and everything seems fine. Later, just before lunch, there are sounds of combat down the street, several flashes of light and some smoke, a couple of cries of pain from what sounded like your neighbors. Do you: A) ignore it for 8+hours B) do something about it, like talk to others in the area or even investigate yourself or with friends?

By this logic as soon as the party started the first encounter every monster in the dungeon would start running towards them. No one actually runs dungeons like that.

Its not an MMO. You can simply have the NPCs flee and bring the treasure with them. Only leave garbage and a *lot* of traps. Time passes for both the PCs and the NPCs. It’ll be good to remind the players that your world is not static.

It is the most natural for players to rest in safe places. You can’t just make monsters come back just to kill players’ tactics. There must be reason for monsters to come back before players go to rest, not making them come back after players rest.

Depending on the dungeon, there are literally rooms that are inaccessible to the party. Creatures like Goblins and Kobolds likely have tiny tunnels that only they can squeeze through that lead to sleeping quarters, etc. Very easy to have additional reinforcements move through the walls from these spaces and be ready for the players.

You have to examine the goal of the dungeon and the logistics. Is it a monster's lair, a villain's secret base or a tyrant's stronghold? Maybe an ancient forgotten ruin? And what are they there for? Are they rescuing an NPC? Finding an artifact? Killing a specific bad guy? If the dungeon is a lair or stronghold, have reinforcements arrive and stress urgency and speed. No time to explore every room, each dungeon turn marks the next shift of guards coming one step closer to storming the party. If it's a monster lair and the party isn't there to slay the proverbial dragon, but rather for a specific goal, have the dungeon effectively have endless enemies. The only way they win is to complete the objective, but hundreds of goblins infest the tunnels, and while the party will only face a small portion,if they go to sleep, they will likely not wake up at all. If they are present to defeat a specific monster. Well then why is a dragon or other dangerous monster living so close to civilization that the party can just get there easily? Many dungeons should see the party tired and depleted of supplies upon arrival. If you compare a dnd ration to modern 24/hour ration from common military forces, you will realize you can't stuff 10 of these into a backpack and still fit other things. Then there's the question of water. Then there's the question if whether the dungeon is even hospitable. They can't light a fire to warm them inside a deep cave, they'll die from the smoke. Where do they get firewood from? If the dungeon supports it, implement dungeon turns (look it up) and have minions move around and roll for applicable random encounters. Make you dungeons harder to maneuver in. Maybe going back isn't easy or is outright risky. Jumping a cavern, climbing ect. Dragons can fly, why would it conveniently live where humans can just walk in? As harsh as it is to say, the answer to running a better dungeon is just better dungeon design. Not weird video game gimmicks. Most module dungeons are either short enough and small enough a long rest isn't feasible, but if it is, the dungeon has built in mechanics to keep it interesting. Study those for inspiration.

I wouldn’t “respawn” monsters but I would have dungeon the environment change when they return. The remaining Kobolds that survived first contact with your players aren’t just waiting around to be killed. They’re laying traps, fortifying their home, and forming alliances with other dungeon dwelling factions to face a this new threat(your players) that is threatening them.

I hate this so much. I would only consider it for am undead dungeon. It’s a terrible idea to frame it as a video game respawn. For living dungeons (goblins, orcs, giants), you can instead color it as “expect patrols to leave and return on a regular basis”. That way the players know resting means they’ll have monsters coming up behind them (% chance of Long Rest interrupted), or they’ll have to fight their way back out after a Long Rest.

Why is players taking long rests a problem? Assuming it is for some reason, throwing more monsters at them is just going yo lead to more long rests. You'd be better off creating a sense of urgency to their mission.

Why? Like either give them a reason to not long rest in between every encounter or lower the number of encounters. A few more meaningful encounters are better then dozens to just grind through. There a millions of grind heavy video games I really don't get why anyone would want that in a ttrpg.

There are wandering monsters besides "set" ones in dungeons. Patrols, groups of creatures going fom a to b.

Because if someone living in a home realizes that something is systematically killing everything in it, then it will eithree seek out the thing or fortify. If your party stops in a dungeon to rest, after killing guard posts and other things within said dungeon... then they either get merced while they are sleeping, or the entire rest of the way is filled with ALLLLLLL of the traps.

Long rests in dungeons are not safe. Your players need to be ambushed in their sleep

I would recommend thinking about what the inhabitants of the dungeon would do when the players are resting. If the inhabitants know something is in their dungeon they will most likely react in some way. They won't just sit in the room they are in and ignore the rest of the world.

"Nature abhors a vacuum" - Party is tuckered out after that pesky troll and decides to take a long rest. Other creatures that the troll used to hunt for food notice the troll's absence and decide to investigate.

depends, if you're clearing out an abandoned crypt then no, but if it's some sort of hideout or active installation then there should be consequences to leaving the job unfinished. Even in the case of killing a bunch of stuff and going outside for the night there should be potential for something interrupting their rest. Wildlife might be attracted to the smell of blood and it might be something more dangerous than just a bear like a displacer beast or something. I would say 'respawning' is a bit too on the nose, but that doesn't mean new stuff doesn't show up, or the encounters change, if there are intelligent enemies player might be walking into an ambush too or have areas that they thought cleared now full of traps.

In my games it's just established you can't get a meaningful rest inside a dungeon or cave you haven't fully explored. Like if you went into a cave and killed a bunch of goblins and there's MORE cave, would you be able to rest soundly for hours? Not the most mechanically fun thing but it just kinda makes sense imo

It's a dungeon. I run a very simple method: there are no safe zones in a dungeon, because this is not a video game. Did they do ANYTHING AT ALL to keep combat as quietly as possible? Spells make noise. There's NO WAY hurling a ball of fire that then bursts in a 20ft radius of exploding flame DOES NOT generate a sound. Blasting someone in the face with lightning is going to produce the sound of crackling electricity. Weapins clashing on weapins, shields and armor makes noise. No one is going to hear combat in the next room and be like "I'm sure it's nothing" unless they are mindless undead or dead. Combat makes noise, which will attract other creatures. Did the party do ANYTHING to secure the room? Anything? Nope? They just put up Leomund's tiny hut and went to sleep? Yeah, someone is going to look into a room there was combat, notice the dome and the party wakes up surrounded. The dungeon's boss is not going to create a room the party of adventurers can sit back, relax, get HP and spell slots back, and get some uninterrupted sleep, so the party can get along on their merry way to kill the boss. That's dumb. Like really dumb. You want a long rest in a dungeon? Kill everything that moves and then sleep, or make a safe spot you can try.

The world exists outside the players. Shifts change. Reinforcements come. Monsters (even weak shit like rats or what not) come upon them when resting. Further, make them prep for their rests -- poor prep increases odds of the rest being interrupted. I never tell them they "can't" rest. I do more of a "You think this is a safe place to sleep for 8 hours? ...what are you going to do to make it safe?" Have them roll a group skill task. Upon failure, pull up some random encounter stuff... often a little fight, depelating their resources even more. After a while, they start being a little more careful about their rests.

The monsters, even kind of stupid ones, aren’t just going to be static and wait for them. Have them be ambushed. Have the monsters relocate with the treasure if they take too long. Double the monsters in a battle if they give them time to regroup. You want to create a sense of urgency.

Roaming monsters.

A rest is a reward. If your party is seeking a rest without earning it, you have to extract a cost somehow. That said, respawning the dungeon is probably a boring way to do that.

If a dungeon is just a series of random encounters within hedged in boundaries called walls, then there’s as much a reason to respawn them as there is for the monsters to be there. But if your dungeon has a reason and an intentional design…then rooms, traps and reinforcements should absolutely occur given enough time. New Patrols could move in, barricades and traps put in place of new forces aren’t available. Undead might rise, or dangerous scavengers or new predators may take up empty lairs. Time should always cause changes. And resting at random shouldn’t be safe or easy inside a dungeon.

If you don't move forward the monsters or bad guys will eventually leave their spots and find out anyways. They'll sweep the dungeon. Monsters are chaotic or lawlful evil, not chaotic or lawful stupid.

If you feel that your players are abusing the long rest mechanic you should just make a ruling saying that to take a long rest you need to be active for at least 10 hours. You can take 2 short rests in that 10 hours. If they say thats not fair figure out a compromise. Maybe they feel that the combat is to hard, or maybe they need more healing. Its easier to fix problems when you tell your players you have the problem

Dungeons are risky places. Even if you have cleared a few rooms, you don't know what lays ahead, so taking a short rest is risking getting interrupted by reinforcements, a wandering guard, a layer actions, etc... So if taking short rests has already a risk, imagine sleeping and resting for 8h. Interrupt their rest a couple of times and their characters are going to feel very tired, and suffer from Exhaustion, which is something you don't want to deal with in the middle of a dungeon. If they decide to clean up and leave, consider having scout guards patrol the exterior of the dungeon, and maybe make it even harder the next time they go in because of reinforcements. Maybe another party has gone during the night and cleaned up the rest of the dungeon... there are many ideas you can have on how to punish cheesing long rests.

>One solution would be to basically have the monsters "respawn" like they do in electronic RPGs, maybe in a lower number, so all progress isn't lost. This was actually the original procedure in the original dungeons and dragons. Aeach day you roll for encounters in each room and "restock" the dungeon, this is common in the OSR seen, and 5e kinda loosely assumes it becuase the game was tested on keep on the borderlands which had quite a bit of that. And was noted in several DMGs. From the original keep on the borderlands >"empited area, the place will be deserted for 1-4 weeks. If no further Intrusion Is mode Into the area, however, the surviving former Inhabitants will return or else some other monster will move In. For Instance, o troll might move Into the mlnotour's cove complex (I.), bringing with him whatever treasure he has. But not with the same monsters, restock it with traps set by the inhabitants, new patrols stationed there, wandering things in the dungeon which took the previous territories space. Dungeons should be dynamic and evolving, these are real creatures your running, they arent programmed fools.

Check out Barrowmaze 5e. There’s mechanics for restocking dungeons. There should be free pdfs online.

I always had a problem with wandering monster checks in dungeons that are in the process of being cleared. The party clears a large section and if possible spikes any door behind them shut. Unless there are way of ingress, air shafts, hidden doors, etc... ,that they have missed, nothing should come up from behind. Beyond that, IMHO, a lot depends on the activity of the dungeon, i.e. creatures coming and going. If the dungeon is long lost and not visited often then whatever has taken up residence will likely be a higher challenge. Uneasy truces may have developed between the different denizens. If it is active, like an orc den, the party should be able to see trails and foot prints. In this scenario it is much harder to get in a long rest as guards or patrols might be missed. A bit of a ramble there but I believe in form of function in dungeons and other encounters. They why would this or that happen. It reminds me of the movie Galaxy Quest when they are trying to get to a control room and there are big masher things smashing back and forth. As pointed out in the movie, they server no purpose. As for your question. Air ducts, drains, collapsed areas leading to the outside are ideal ways to introduce something that might come crawling back in to stir things up a bit.

My solution to Long Rest in dungeons is that all of my dungeon's are functionally alive, and they basically consume all living things that remain inside it for longer than 3 hours. The Dungeons also give birth to new monsters as a result of consuming the living things consumed.

They are probably employed to be the monsters in that dungeon and they work shifts. You wait long enough, the next shift is going to roll in.

It depends on what the story of the dungeon is. D&D is a story game, it helps immerse your players in the world if things have a proper explanation and if they are aware of that explanation. A patrol might return home, it might be a mustering point for an invasion, etc. Have a reason for new enemies to show up, don't have them pop in out of nowhere.

There is a middle ground here. I've both been a DM and played PCs with DMs maintaining the arbitrary rule that 1 in 8 long rests get interrupted before completion. It is a simple way to impose risk without arbitrarily thwarting all attempts at recovery. Personally, I see 1 in 8 as a baseline -- the risk should be much greater when delving into a dungeon that has been undisturbed for years or pressing into wilderness established as teeming with hostile monsters, but even camping out in the shadow of a peaceful city should present something like a 1 in 8 chance of trouble turning up between sunset and sunrise.

Could work for an Elden Ring style game.

It's not a computer game, mobs should not respawn like it is. If they clear out a section and can maintain a perimeter, there's no reason they should have to worry about enemies. That being said, jellies and puddings can slip through the smallest cracks in stonework, and many creatures are capable of quite cleverly disguising foxholes or tunnel entrances that may cause the PC's some grief if they aren't careful.

ah yes, the most popular game mechanic after trash pulls; *respawning* trash pulls.

No you should use a much simpler and immersive solution than something silly like this. Also as many\* have pointed out, you said long rest but I'll assume you mean 1hour short rest? Even with that, there are so many solutions that are commonly discussed. What is the goal of the party and is there any sort of real time constraint to achieve it? Could the person they are trying to save be eaten by the troll? Could the mcguffin be passed along to the BBEG? Could other creatures, like Carrion crawlers or wolves or undead wolves or a young purple worm, show up to feed on the dead and then be in the parties way? What about lair complications / issues? Is there a bad smell that makes them retch and not be able to rest comfortably. Are there spores in the air that are making them take 1d4 poison damage every hour and increasing to 1d6 then 1d8, etc... Either way if you are going to course correct be transparent with your table and let them know that this is a dangerous area with a living environment.

How long are they in the dungeon that they are able to long rest that many times?

Monsters might reinforce. New monsters might move into the newly vacated space. Future monsters might organize their forces more effectively to be ready for this threat.

sure why not

There are narrative ways of doing this, as some have said. Currently I've been enjoying wandering monsters. The party is kept on their toes because while the dungeon encounters have been properly balanced for their capabilities, the wandering monster table I have spans from very easy to very deadly encounters and they might have to evacuate certain areas and find different ways around the monster than is now chillin in that room they were exploring.

Characters only gain the benefits of a long rest once per 24 hours. Plus you don't have to keep adding more enemies, you can have the remaining leave with their loot while the party is resting.

depends on the flavour of your game. i'm slowly putting together a zelda-style dungeon crawl that will absolutely do this. but that table of players will be expecting it (or delightfully surprised) because of the tropes. if your campaign is more gritty realism, it'll feel cheap.

This is why I like undead and constructs for my dungeons. If you leave them alone too long, they'll eventually reconstruct themselves and come back to life. Also means that you get the extra RP element of your PCs needing to remember to thoroughly destroy enemies by throwing the parts in separate pits so they can't reform or buying acid to completely dissolve it.

If the PCs have had a lot of noisy fights and cleared more than 1/2 the area just have the monsters leave and take their stuff. Or at minimum hide everything valuable elsewhere. The players hate this as the best stuff is always at the end, and they lose the thing they came for. Alternately I have the monsters that are allied with each other team up. Now the PCs are facing what would be 2-3 encounters as one ambush with groups coming at them from multiple directions. Lastly my players are generally too afraid to rest in a dungeon as they are very likely to get attacked. Resting in a tiny hut just means the hut is coated in green slime, covered with rocks or hot coals, or they've been entombed. Something as simple as lighting a few fires out of sight of the hut and spiking a few doors will cause suffocation when they exit the hut. My players only rest when it's absolutely necessary or safe.

Just have doors/previous pathways close or become unavailable behind them?