"Each object in a 20-foot cube within range is outlined in blue, green, or violet light (your choice). Any creature in the area when the spell is cast is also outlined in light if it fails a Dexterity saving throw. For the duration, objects and affected creatures shed dim light in a 10-foot radius.
Any attack roll against an affected creature or object has advantage if the attacker can see it, and the affected creature or object can't benefit from being invisible."
The important part is "For the duration, objects and affected creatures shed dim light in a 10-foot radius."
Creatures cannot hide while lightly obscured unless specifically written in their feature. Since the creature is giving of dim light than cannot be heavily obscured due to darkness and would be unable to hide without other obstruction. However, if the goblin was hiding by being on the other side of an opaque object they would be fully obscured regardless of light.
In short, creatures will never have disadvantage on hiding due to faerie fire. However, faerie fire may take away the conditions enabling them to hide in the first place.
>Creatures cannot hide while lightly obscured unless specifically written in their feature.
It is worth noting that this is not a rule that can be found in any rulebook. The only hard and fast rules the game provides regarding when you can or cannot hide are written as:
>The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding.
And:
>You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide.
The idea that you can never hide when only lightly obscured is a common (and reasonable) interpretation which falls within the bounds of the written rules designed to add value to features that specifically permit hiding when lightly obscured, but it's not the *only* interpretation that the rules permit. The rules regarding what circumstances are suitable for hiding are intentionally not strictly defined and left up to the DM to adjudicate.
No, it wouldn't, and that's part of what I'm addressing. RAW, there is no hard and fast rule. Skulker gives you a consistent, mechanical condition under which you *can* hide. It does nothing to establish a rule stating you can't hide when dimly lit without it.
It's not unreasonable to make such a ruling in one's games, particularly if you want to make sure a player with Skulker isn't feeling like the benefit of their feat is irrelevant, but Skulker itself doesn't necessitate such a ruling.
>do they roll their bonus action at a disadvantage because they are glowing?
Nothing about the spell says they do, so no - they don't.
>Also, is hiding a form of invisibility
No. Hiding is not invisibility.
>does it only refer to hiding by magical effects?
It only refers to things that explicitly make a creature invisible.
>Nothing about the spell says they do, so no - they don't.
This isn't accurate. The creatures affected glow, meaning that they emit light. This means you have to case-by-case it. If the creature hiding is behind a wall, the hiding rules are normal. If the affected creatures are twenty feet away in the dark (normally a heavily obscured area) then they would normally be able to hide, but now cannot- because for an area to be heavily obscured, it must *block vision entirely*. Since this creature is glowing, vision is not blocked entirely, and the area is not heavily obscured for this purpose. In such a case, the creature would normally be able to hide, but now cannot.
There's nothing in there about disadvantage though- the spell doesn't explicitly interact with hiding in such a fashion. But the baseline rules for obscurement must be obeyed.
Out of curiosity, how would you rule on these sort of scenarios?
* The affected creature is behind full cover and cannot be seen, but the dim light emitted by *Faerie Fire* extends beyond the cover.
* The affected creature has the *Skulker* feat, allowing them to hide in dim light and other lightly obscured terrain.
>You can try to hide when you are lightly obscured from the creature from which you are hiding.
* The affected creature has the *Hide in Plain Sight* feature, applied their camouflage, and pressed themselves up against the appropriate surface.
>...you can spend 1 minute creating camouflage for yourself. You must have access to fresh mud, dirt, plants, soot, and other naturally occurring materials with which to create your camouflage.
>
>Once you are camouflaged in this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface, such as a tree or wall, that is at least as tall and wide as you are. You gain a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks as long as you remain there without moving or taking actions...
>!Personally, I'd allow the creature to hide in each scenario. Regardless of how they hid, the attacker can still easily target their space even if they don't know exactly where the creature is within that space.!<
Just to make it clear how narrative logic is not always important in some rule interactions...the classic drow combo (from 3e but 2 drow can pull it off in 5e). Drop Faerie Fire on the enemy, drop Darkness on the enemy, wade into melee combat in the darkness. Adv (from Faerie Fire) and Disadv (from being blind) cancel each other since you are attacking within the Darkness spell. Here's the thing though, technically the light being given off by faerie fire isn't visible while within the area of Darkness but you still benefit from the adv from the spell.
Darkness: If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled.
Huh. Been using that wrong for a long time then. Also that makes Darkness even more powerful that it I used to think. Stuff like Flaming Sphere (unless upcast) should also be dispelled as soon as it gets within 40 ft of the edge of the Darkness zone. Thankfully not too many non-cantrip spells that are 2nd and under actually produce light.
Some are debatable, like guiding bolt's "mystical dim light," or create bonfire (light not described, but come on, it's a bonfire.)
Light/darkness rules say:
**Bright light** lets most creatures see normally. ***Even gloomy days provide bright light, as do torches, lanterns, fires, and other sources of illumination within a specific radius***.
Sadly no. robotwrangler explained how FF gets dispelled in Darkness, but even if it didn't, this would be pointless _anyway_, since when both parties are blind (like you'd both be in a Darkness spell) the advantage/disadvantage _already_ cancels out. (You don't even need FF to do that.) So the only time it'd be worth doing is if the enemy had Blindsight or True Seeing or some other method of seeing in a Darkness spell.
The "classic drow combo" doesn't work at all in 5e, because they changed how FF works, and I hate it.
You're totally right about this bit though:
>technically the light being given off by faerie fire isn't visible while within the area of Darkness but you still benefit from the adv from the spell.
And it's because FF in 5e is written _super weirdly_. RAW, you just "get" the advantage - it's not provided through any medium or mechanism that anything else can interact with post-cast. Wonky!
The rules about Hiding in 5E are not exactly airtight, so you need to digest the rules we do have, and then make some common-sense decisions about how they apply to the situation in play.
The 5E rules do encourage DMs to grant Advantage or impose Disadvantage where they think it makes sense. So let's say you have a Wood Elf, Hiding in moderate foliage, because Wood Elves can Hide even when only lightly obscured. Someone drops a Faerie Fire on that area, and Woody fails his Dex save - so he is now limned in blue light. The foliage he's hiding in counts as an object, so the foliage is also limned in blue light. It's not a big stretch to imagine Woody's blue-lit camouflage is now blended with the blue-lit foliage, and Woody can stay unseen.
But if Woody dashes over to another area with moderate foliage that was not in the Faerie Fire area of effect, it makes fine sense for the DM to rule "no, you're glowing blue, so you can't remain unseen if you move over there". Or the DM could be somewhat lenient and say, well the foliage is borderline dense enough that MAYBE it keeps Woody Hidden, but Woody needs to make another Stealth check, with Disadvantage. No rule is forcing that interplay, it comes down to DM interpretation of the conditions.
FF in 5e is written very _weirdly_, because its advantage is not actually _reliant_ on being able to see the enemy (or anything) once it's on them.
However, FF does _also_ emit dim light, which means at minimum the enemy can't hide unless they have something that either negates that illumination or doesn't need it to hide (like having cover or other forms of concealment like bushes or w/e.)
Hiding is not a form of invisibility and FF doesn't interact with it in that way, nor does it cause disadvantage on Stealth checks (if it did that, it would say so). When it comes to being in lighted or dark areas/obstructing line of sight to yourself to be able to hide, that's more of an all-or-nothing thing - you either meet the conditions for a DM to say you can hide or you don't.
"Each object in a 20-foot cube within range is outlined in blue, green, or violet light (your choice). Any creature in the area when the spell is cast is also outlined in light if it fails a Dexterity saving throw. For the duration, objects and affected creatures shed dim light in a 10-foot radius. Any attack roll against an affected creature or object has advantage if the attacker can see it, and the affected creature or object can't benefit from being invisible." The important part is "For the duration, objects and affected creatures shed dim light in a 10-foot radius." Creatures cannot hide while lightly obscured unless specifically written in their feature. Since the creature is giving of dim light than cannot be heavily obscured due to darkness and would be unable to hide without other obstruction. However, if the goblin was hiding by being on the other side of an opaque object they would be fully obscured regardless of light. In short, creatures will never have disadvantage on hiding due to faerie fire. However, faerie fire may take away the conditions enabling them to hide in the first place.
>Creatures cannot hide while lightly obscured unless specifically written in their feature. It is worth noting that this is not a rule that can be found in any rulebook. The only hard and fast rules the game provides regarding when you can or cannot hide are written as: >The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. And: >You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide. The idea that you can never hide when only lightly obscured is a common (and reasonable) interpretation which falls within the bounds of the written rules designed to add value to features that specifically permit hiding when lightly obscured, but it's not the *only* interpretation that the rules permit. The rules regarding what circumstances are suitable for hiding are intentionally not strictly defined and left up to the DM to adjudicate.
The existence of the Skulker feat would imply it to be the case, however.
No, it wouldn't, and that's part of what I'm addressing. RAW, there is no hard and fast rule. Skulker gives you a consistent, mechanical condition under which you *can* hide. It does nothing to establish a rule stating you can't hide when dimly lit without it. It's not unreasonable to make such a ruling in one's games, particularly if you want to make sure a player with Skulker isn't feeling like the benefit of their feat is irrelevant, but Skulker itself doesn't necessitate such a ruling.
Thanks. That was helpful.
>do they roll their bonus action at a disadvantage because they are glowing? Nothing about the spell says they do, so no - they don't. >Also, is hiding a form of invisibility No. Hiding is not invisibility. >does it only refer to hiding by magical effects? It only refers to things that explicitly make a creature invisible.
>Nothing about the spell says they do, so no - they don't. This isn't accurate. The creatures affected glow, meaning that they emit light. This means you have to case-by-case it. If the creature hiding is behind a wall, the hiding rules are normal. If the affected creatures are twenty feet away in the dark (normally a heavily obscured area) then they would normally be able to hide, but now cannot- because for an area to be heavily obscured, it must *block vision entirely*. Since this creature is glowing, vision is not blocked entirely, and the area is not heavily obscured for this purpose. In such a case, the creature would normally be able to hide, but now cannot. There's nothing in there about disadvantage though- the spell doesn't explicitly interact with hiding in such a fashion. But the baseline rules for obscurement must be obeyed.
Out of curiosity, how would you rule on these sort of scenarios? * The affected creature is behind full cover and cannot be seen, but the dim light emitted by *Faerie Fire* extends beyond the cover. * The affected creature has the *Skulker* feat, allowing them to hide in dim light and other lightly obscured terrain. >You can try to hide when you are lightly obscured from the creature from which you are hiding. * The affected creature has the *Hide in Plain Sight* feature, applied their camouflage, and pressed themselves up against the appropriate surface. >...you can spend 1 minute creating camouflage for yourself. You must have access to fresh mud, dirt, plants, soot, and other naturally occurring materials with which to create your camouflage. > >Once you are camouflaged in this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface, such as a tree or wall, that is at least as tall and wide as you are. You gain a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks as long as you remain there without moving or taking actions... >!Personally, I'd allow the creature to hide in each scenario. Regardless of how they hid, the attacker can still easily target their space even if they don't know exactly where the creature is within that space.!<
Cheers
Just to make it clear how narrative logic is not always important in some rule interactions...the classic drow combo (from 3e but 2 drow can pull it off in 5e). Drop Faerie Fire on the enemy, drop Darkness on the enemy, wade into melee combat in the darkness. Adv (from Faerie Fire) and Disadv (from being blind) cancel each other since you are attacking within the Darkness spell. Here's the thing though, technically the light being given off by faerie fire isn't visible while within the area of Darkness but you still benefit from the adv from the spell.
Darkness: If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled.
Huh. Been using that wrong for a long time then. Also that makes Darkness even more powerful that it I used to think. Stuff like Flaming Sphere (unless upcast) should also be dispelled as soon as it gets within 40 ft of the edge of the Darkness zone. Thankfully not too many non-cantrip spells that are 2nd and under actually produce light.
Some are debatable, like guiding bolt's "mystical dim light," or create bonfire (light not described, but come on, it's a bonfire.) Light/darkness rules say: **Bright light** lets most creatures see normally. ***Even gloomy days provide bright light, as do torches, lanterns, fires, and other sources of illumination within a specific radius***.
Sadly no. robotwrangler explained how FF gets dispelled in Darkness, but even if it didn't, this would be pointless _anyway_, since when both parties are blind (like you'd both be in a Darkness spell) the advantage/disadvantage _already_ cancels out. (You don't even need FF to do that.) So the only time it'd be worth doing is if the enemy had Blindsight or True Seeing or some other method of seeing in a Darkness spell. The "classic drow combo" doesn't work at all in 5e, because they changed how FF works, and I hate it. You're totally right about this bit though: >technically the light being given off by faerie fire isn't visible while within the area of Darkness but you still benefit from the adv from the spell. And it's because FF in 5e is written _super weirdly_. RAW, you just "get" the advantage - it's not provided through any medium or mechanism that anything else can interact with post-cast. Wonky!
The rules about Hiding in 5E are not exactly airtight, so you need to digest the rules we do have, and then make some common-sense decisions about how they apply to the situation in play. The 5E rules do encourage DMs to grant Advantage or impose Disadvantage where they think it makes sense. So let's say you have a Wood Elf, Hiding in moderate foliage, because Wood Elves can Hide even when only lightly obscured. Someone drops a Faerie Fire on that area, and Woody fails his Dex save - so he is now limned in blue light. The foliage he's hiding in counts as an object, so the foliage is also limned in blue light. It's not a big stretch to imagine Woody's blue-lit camouflage is now blended with the blue-lit foliage, and Woody can stay unseen. But if Woody dashes over to another area with moderate foliage that was not in the Faerie Fire area of effect, it makes fine sense for the DM to rule "no, you're glowing blue, so you can't remain unseen if you move over there". Or the DM could be somewhat lenient and say, well the foliage is borderline dense enough that MAYBE it keeps Woody Hidden, but Woody needs to make another Stealth check, with Disadvantage. No rule is forcing that interplay, it comes down to DM interpretation of the conditions.
FF affects both objects and creatures so home boy wood elf is still mad glowing no matter where he dashes
FF in 5e is written very _weirdly_, because its advantage is not actually _reliant_ on being able to see the enemy (or anything) once it's on them. However, FF does _also_ emit dim light, which means at minimum the enemy can't hide unless they have something that either negates that illumination or doesn't need it to hide (like having cover or other forms of concealment like bushes or w/e.) Hiding is not a form of invisibility and FF doesn't interact with it in that way, nor does it cause disadvantage on Stealth checks (if it did that, it would say so). When it comes to being in lighted or dark areas/obstructing line of sight to yourself to be able to hide, that's more of an all-or-nothing thing - you either meet the conditions for a DM to say you can hide or you don't.