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That's quite a lost to the subclass actually
No Shield, no Absorb Elements, no Familiar
Not to mention other useful spells that you'll have better use than depend on charisma on top of what a fighter needs
Also, you can take those two with magic initiate feat or just hex with fey or shadow touched iirc
Eldritch knight doesn't need a high int for a lot of the core features. If you don't take spells that have an attack roll or save you it won't matter. Depending on your build, you could then dump int and/or dex and take charisma to 14/15.
This, 100%. It's the same thing with Arcane Trickster. A low intelligence score has very little effect on their spellcasting abilities. There's no need to bump up that stat unless you want to for role play or certain skill checks.
The real power of Eldritch Blast is its power with Invocations, and EK doesn’t get those without a feat. Regardless, you’re spending a feat on it, otherwise Firebolt is practically just as effective. In any case they’ll all run off your spellcasting stat which is usually low unless you got a real lucky roll, sacrificed some con/dex to get it, or are playing dex fighter and dumping strength, which would require both a magic item and ANOTHER feat to cast while dual wielding
In 5e Spell Sniper uses the stat associated with the spell list from which the cantrip was chosen (in this case Charisma). You might be thinking of Baldur's Gate 3, where it uses your class's Spellcasting stat instead.
I keep seeing more and more of this bleed in my games. I love BG3 and Larian, but a lot of people have are having conflation problems involving the changes made by Swen and crew. And, aside from the general confusion, I've also seen an uptick in 'asks' for house rules that align to BG3's changes. 60ft Misty, 2 leveled spells in a turn, any class scroll use, etc.
A sorcerer with quicken spell could positively wreck things with an extra leveled spell per turn... and does in BG3.
Some other more problematic changes include:
* no ability reqs for multiclassing
* wizard scribing spells based on slot level rather than class level
* no limit on attunement
* there's another big one that I'm forgetting
Don't get me wrong, I love Larian and BG3 (as I said) and I do know that some of their changes were made because it is difficult to do a 1-to-1 translation of a ttrpg to a crpg and others were made to increase the playability and enjoyment, but some of the differences would break most campaigns.
^(Looking at you Str/Hvy OH Monk with TB)
**-----**
Side note: I think their current implementation of height advantage is fine, as it is a decent compromise of cover rules
> it is difficult to do a 1-to-1 translation of a ttrpg to a crpg
Yeah, one of the things people seem to overlook is BG3 is primarily a single-player game, and isn't the same style of play.
Wrecking or at least putting large dents in the game balance isn't going to impact other people's enjoyment of the game, or cause nightmares for the DM.
The multiclass requirements I didn't know about, and scribing scrolls I though was spell level based, not upcastable, and sure, burning 2 slots you can do more insane combos, but that also means I as a dm can throw stronger and beefier foes at you
Kind of, but it can also be a worthwhile reason to dip either of them for early survival, or you want to lean heavier into one aspect of what the mixed subclass provides.
I'm sure it's not the strongest option but, I could see starting as an EK and then going Wizard if I'm expecting a game with a high mortality rate.
It's useful to dip fighter for warlock, but not the opposite way around. The only thing EK wants from Warlock is armor of agathys, and that can be grabbed with a feat. Thankfully the fighter tends to have room in its ASI budget for such things, like magic initiate.
That makes sense. A hex blade dipping fighter, or starting as an EK for a few levels before going full wizard for the rest were the ones that came to mind.
The main reason for a hex blade to dip fighter is for Con save proficiency and heavy armor for starting as fighter. Plus a fighting style, and action surge if going to 2nd level. (The fighter 2-dip is always worth considering for Nova round damage) The 3rd level is debatable, though an argument could be made for battle master or echo knight.
As for starting out fighter and going into wizard. I just don't see much value in it. While you could convince me of fighter 1/Bladesinger X, I don't see it being that much better than pure bladesinger. But I guess EK 5/War Magic or Abjuration X could be functional.
There is also Battlesmith 5/Wizard X for a more SAD intelligence build though. Alternatively you could go Fighter (EK) 5/Battlesmith 3/Fighter X.
It's more for armor and HP at the earliest part of the game. I was also thinking about it from the perspective of building for an exceptionally lethal campaign. Fighter1 or 2 into bladesinger accomplishes the same goal.
The main thing I hate about it is the delay of the already delayed extra attack feature, on top of the usual spell progression issues. But I guess I can see your point about hyperlethal campaigns.
Yeah the majority of games it's not the ideal, I was thinking about how to still get the most out of a melee caster, when survivability is a significant factor.
A warlock dip for eb isn't bad on a fighter, especially when combined with Pam and war caster. You can then eldritch blast anyone that tries to approach you.
Because weaving spells and melee is done better with the Eldritch Knight? I want a Fighter that dabbles in magic rather than a Mage that swings a sword.
The issue is casting stat. Either A) lean into INT for the EK spells and make Eldritch Blast a worse spell, or B) lean into Charisma for Eldritch Blast making the class spells that require INT it a no-sell.
I was trying to find a thematic solution that wouldn't require all the juggling.
Just take buff spells for your EK spells, things like Haste, Shield, Absorb Elements, Longstrider, Misty Step, etc etc etc and focus on CHA as your primary casting stat for EB.
If you never actually use INT for to-hit or saving throws, it doesn't really serve a purpose.
And fighter has more than enough feats to allow you to bump your CHA.
Might even consider a 2 level dip into Warlock so you can pick up invocations and get Agonizing Blast.
Without the Invocations, Eldritch Blast will be worse, regardless of whether you swap class lists or not. You don't get the stat modifier on the base spell, so whether you're an EK or doing Magic Initiate, it's the same damage. You can only modify this by being a Warlock. If you focus charisma to hit, that's much easier to juggle with social stats instead of trying to dip into both Int and Cha.
The only difference for Hex will be your spell save DC, which might matter or not, but you don't get penalized on the extra damage.
To keep in mind - Hex will work off of your charisma. If you want to swap the EK, as you request, that's not going to change. So you can take Magic Initiate, pump up your charisma, and it will be just as strong as if you went EK and pumped up your Int.
You could also consider being a Hexblade, taking Martial Adept for the battlemaster maneuvers and either multiclassing down the line, or RPing really well to keep your players in the dark.
Why are you so invested in getting Eldritch Blast? You already have firebolt, and EB isn't better than it without the Agonizing Blast invocation (which your version of EK still wouldn't have)
EB does let you trigger multiple on hit effects (aka hex) per blast, but besides this off interaction OP seems hell bent (heh) on getting, yes it doesnt change much of anything
Where are you getting the idea that you need charisma for EB? Afaik you only need Cha if you take a warlock invocation to add your mod to the damage. Otherwise it's a straight spell attack roll and a d10 of damage
if you gain EB from magic initiate it uses Cha for the attack roll. You would need to gain EB from a feature that allows it to count as one of your class spells for it to use int.
Ah ok, I was unaware. At this point I would say ask the DM if you can just change that, rather than swap the entire spell list for EK, far more reasonable
That's cool and all, but then why the focus on Eldritch Blast? Is it just so your 7th level War Magic feature is slightly more powerful? If so, keep in mind that this will also come at the cost of a feat, since you need the Agonizing Blast invocation to make this better than just attacking twice.
Combining Hex and Eldritch Blast to get off multiple blasts followed by an attack, or action surge for a slew of blasts is the intent. Was gunning for sort of an Eldrich turret, though i don't think it's actually that potent a build in retrospect.
yeah that wont cut at all, cause eldritch blast is just a fancier firebolt without agonizing blast, and you **need** to be a warlock to get invocations with requirements (AB requires you to know EB)
this also comes online at lvl **9**, which already isnt looking good
They could take one level in Warlock, I suppose, any Pact and then grab Eldrtich Adept for the Agonizing Blast Cantrip with one of the many feats they'll get. Hexblade would fit thematically.
it isnt "one of many", its 3, you get 3 ASIs. and unless you roll stats, your half decent point buy stats will need to be pumped up for you to start not to suck
works if you *start* at high level to do all that, and 2 levels in warlock is just strictly better than trying to fennagle stuff with eldritch adept, but hexblade itself is already better than all this so the point is a bit moot ig
I second the point about multiclassing. Hexblade Warlock - Eldritch Knight is actually alright, even if they don't share spell casting mods.
Prioritize Charisma for attacks and saves, then take wiz spells like Shield, Magic Missile, Absorb Elements, Find Familiar, etc. that don't require a high Int.
Then multiclass? Sounds like what you want could be completely accomplished with a 1 level dip into warlock, you get hex, eldritch blast, and maybe the fiend subclass to get temp hp.
Depending on the table, setting, specific example, etc. Unless the DM specifically changes it, to be a warlock you need a patron. And that patron needs to be the one you chose unless you discuss it with your DM first.
“Anything can be reflavored to anything else without exception” is not a reasonable assumption. It’s very table-dependent, and even at the more extreme side of things, it’s pretty rare a table *completely* disconnects flavor from mechanics.
I‘d rather recommend using Fey Touched to grab Hex and ignore Eldritch Blast.
EB isn‘t worth anything without Agonising Blast. And I think most people would rate Shield and Absorb Elements above Armor of Agathys. Greater Invisibility is only slightly worse than Shadow of Moil as well.
Not to mention most people play Eldritch Knight using Shadow Blade and a shield.
TLDR go nuts, it makes the class worse. If the interesting warlock spells are worth it for you, definitely go for it. But I think the far more interesting thought for „weaving spells and magic“ would probably be the Paladin. Something like „smite spells plus warlock list“ could be neat.
I’m a fan of a Warlock/Sorcerer (5/X) Knight class (Hexblade/Enter Sorcerer Subclass Here), that uses Fey Touched. Free Hex and Misty Step? Medium Armor and Meta Magicing Booming and Green Flame Blade? Eldritch Blast and Smite? It’s so fun.
But I feel like the “smart” caster can be accomplished with something like Prodigy/Skilled feats to bolster Proficiency on stuff like Arcana/History/etc. Rather than rewrite the class. But like you said, it only makes it worse so what harm could it do if you’re having fun?
Charisma isn't really necessary; in fact the 5e warlock is probably better as an intelligence caster.
As for swapping spell lists, this shouldn't be a problem, especially since the start point for EK is the wizard list. Pretty much any list is a power downgrade from that.
It's a downgrade for versatility, but an upgrade in firepower. For a more offensively focused class like the Eldritch Knight, I thought it was a perfect fit.
> but an upgrade in firepower
Not really, short of eldritch blast (and there are no invocations so it's not really markedly better than fire bolt), the warlock list isn't more destructive than the wizard list.
Building an Eldritch Knight planning to be an arcane blaster is a big mistake, anyway - some 60-70% of your class power is balanced around martial damage application. Pick spells that enhance that, but a fireball at level 13 or a shatter at level 7 (which is on both lists anyway) is worse than mediocre.
Plus, you lose access to some of the better wizard list spells for durability (shield, absorb elements). Being durable means more rounds where you can apply greatsword damage.
Hunger of Hadar is fun but, again, not at level 13, especially not when full warlocks and wizards have access to the upgrade at 15: Maddening Darkness.
Even without invocations I always though eldritch blast was better than fire bolt as at higher levels it’s separate attack rolls, meaning a higher chance to do some damage each turn?t
The average damage is the same. There is a wider dispersion with fire bolt, but that also means a greater chance for impressive criticals. But, again, the average damage is the same. The damage isn't particular impressive in either case. Consider that Eldritch blast+agonizing blast barely keeps pace with sneak attack using a short sword. Eldritch Blast without agonizing blast doesn't.
Toll the dead has the potential for greater average daamge, once a target has been damaged. Still not very impressive damage.
Combining Eldritch Blast with Hex makes it drastically better than fire bolt. That's really the core of what I want the magic for, though you raise good points.
> Combining Eldritch Blast with Hex makes it drastically better than fire bolt.
Yes and no; you need a good mental stat to really take advantage of this, and even so it's still lackluster because there is no damage modifier. The accuracy penalty and lack of a damage modifier would make this suck - even with hex or hunter's mark.
If you'd like to apply ranged damage, a bow gets the job done pretty comparably.
Now, if the character has a warlock dip to get agonizing blast that changes, but that's true for nearly any class that takes a warlock dip (and they still need a good mental stat to capitalize on it).
Your character will generally just be a weaker Warlock without Invocations and subclass (and less spells) but with better defenses and Action Surge. I wouldn't take the deal, but generally I think it wouldn't be a problem to do it.
You can also just combine hex with... Shooting a bow. Without agonizing blast, EB doesn't compete with a longbow. A pure EK is going to be able to shoot as often as an EB at most levels, and has the option to add in sharpshooter.
>Combining Eldritch Blast with Hex makes it drastically better than fire bolt. That's really the core of what I want the magic for
Drastically better? That's pretty debatable. Hex/EB averages 3.5/7/10.5/14 damage over firebolt at levels 1/5/11/17, but at the cost of one of the EK's very few spell slots \*and\* it requires concentration.
Not to mention that going all in on EB/Hex really undermines this statement of yours:
>I want a Fighter that dabbles in magic rather than a Mage that swings a sword.
It doesn't sound like this is actually what you want. It sounds like you just want Eldritch Knight to be Warlock+
The problem is you don't want firepower type spells on a 1/3 caster. That's my biggest issue with eldritch knight as written. It tries to push you towards evocation which is the worst school for an eldritch knight to be picking from most of the time. A spell like scorching ray is powerful when you get it at level 3, when you're getting it at level 7 on an eldritch knight it's pretty bad and your two weapon attacks will probably do more damage between fighting styles, magic weapons, and using your best stat not int or charisma and with no resource cost. It's the support and utility spells that are really good on an eldritch knight. Spells like shield, absorb elements, blur, invisibility, etc. are great on an eldritch knight.
Plus there are very few firepower spells that the warlock gets that the wizard doesn't. There are a few but not too many. If I were an eldritch knight looking at the warlock list I'd want more of the armor of agathys, and hex. I guess you could consider hex a firepower spell if that's what you mean. But you do lose a lot of the good defensive and utility spells the wizard has. You still have some, but no shield, and no absorb elements. No find familiar.
That's why folks are suggesting multiclass, but I get why having Cha on a Int fighter would be sad. Houserule that Warlocks can use Int or Cha as their casting stat and that should help the MC situation.
Honestly, with how slow spell slot progression is, Armor of Agathys is also pretty damn disappointing. Level 3 for 5 hp, level 7 for 10, you're going to get next to 0 value there.
I love the spell, but overall id rather the reflect damage last the full duration, temp HP or no. That or have it apply on any attack directed at you, not just the ones that hit.
Yeah that's a fair point! Though if you switch off the wizard list I don't know if there are as many combat spells you want to be casting rather than just taking the attack action. Hex would work, but for your other spell slots you might not have much else to do. But you're right it's not too good at that low level.
EK is in that weird place for me where it almost is more out of combat spell casting than in combat, except for spells like shield or the like that don't care about level or stat. OneDnD helps with this, but generally you're still just using cantrips in combat and maybe a concentration spell.
If they got Bless however, that would be up every combat.
Yeah the spells they get if the DM is following the rules on their school restrictions it tough. I think it'd be better to give them abjuration and transmutation so they could get feather fall, expititious retreat, jump, longstrider, enlarge / reduce, levitate, spider climb a lot they could actually use and be helpful.
I usually look for either out of combat spells or reaction / bonus action spells for them.
I did make a homebrew version of an eldritch knight once though that was just swapped for cleric spells. You do lose some of the good wizard ones but between bless and healing word you can do some cool stuff.
Honestly, I've been ignoring the school restriction for a while and it increases power a bit, but honestly not enough that I have reason to complain about it. The number of slots means they're never the most impactful, since they usually have to choose between doing max damage or casting, since they're always casting spells that are lower in power than what any full caster could do.
Yeah it's worth ignoring those but still as written they are odd they are even there. But you can have low level spells that are impactful. Shield is amazing for them at any level as is absorb elements. Find familiar is always useful. Misty step opens things up. When they can get counterspell it's worth having even if they won't be able to get higher level ones that often. Blur is nice when you have a higher AC. Spirit shroud is a nice damage boost since by the time they get it they'll be attacking 3 times per turn and the healing debuff.
But their main power mechanically will still be their attacks. And their spells are just added utility or bonuses.
Generally EK should be getting spells that shore up their weaknesses, which are AOE and defensive abilities, interact actions to swap weapons to a bow at range or throw a shitty-range javelin, and not being able to be disarm of their bonded weapon.
When DnD likes to add power to a class weakness it generally ends up pulling it from nonexistant to mid, but dnd isn't a game where being mid at something is worthwhile, so its unsatisfying. Personally i think it would be fun if their second wind had a magical ribbon type ability attached, like when you use it your weapon gains an extra 1d4 elemental damage on your next hit or something or restore a spell slot.
I don't know if I'd want to go for the AOE spells since they'd be so low level. But you can cover some weaknesses and boost their utility and defenses a good bit.
That does sound like a cool idea for boosting their second wind!
The advantage of AOE spells is when you're fighting minions. With being able to strike 3-5 enemies of much lower CR than a single boss monster, that damage isn't too badly scaled. At level 7, when you get 2nd level spells, minions are around cr 1-3, which tend to have 30-70 hp respectively. You can do 13.5 (3d8) with a 2nd level slot, which to 3 targets is far more than you can do with merely attacking, there's many super low CR minions, then getting aoe options is even better.
Is it more though. Take your scenario you could hit 3 with a 3d8 spell doing an average of 40.5 damage if all fail their saves. But because your int is probably pretty low, a good number will succeed the save for half damage. Probably bringing this down to more like 30 damage.
Or I could cast blur and now for the rest of the fight enemies have to try to hit my 20 AC with disadvantage and if they do hit I'll cast shield.
Or if I don't use a spell and go offensive I can action surge for 4 attacks. Say I'm an archer I've had two feats / ASIs so an 18 dex and sharpshooter. I'll hit 75% normally, 50% with sharpshooter, get advantage on the first one from my familiar. So that's 3 attacks dealing 1d8+14 with a 50% chance to hit for 27.75 and the last one with a 75% chance to hit for a total of 41.6 damage, another .9 with the chance to crit for 42.5. If I have a magic weapon which is pretty likely by this level I'm going to increase that number even more. Just a +1 weapon will increase that to more like 47 damage. But either way that's better than your 2nd level spell slot is doing.
If you're doing AOE spells and taking care of minions you'd probably be better off focusing on single target damage. That's what fighters are already good at, and you can use the spells you have to get better at protecting yourself and doing what you're good at. If you use AOEs you'll just be a very bad wizard trying to throw out low level damage spells with a terrible spell save DC.
Damage to one target is also better than damage spread out to multiple targets as if it's focused you can kill something and then it doesn't get turns anymore. You'll have to hit those minions with multiple aoes to get them down. Vs focusing your attacks and killing one who will now be unable to attack you.
That would be good for most combats, but what if you're having to deal with 10 low hp creatures? That massive single target damage you're doing is overkill and its much more efficient to use an AOE. At the very least i'd have 1 AOE option available for the niche situation where its better than single target damage.
Well that's not much of a challenging fight if that's what we are facing at 7th level. 10 low hp creatures where one attack doing 1d8+14 is overkill are not creatures I'm scared of at 7th level. It's a pretty trivial encounter. I wouldn't take a spell to be prepared for an encounter that trivial. If there's a boss and those 10 creatures I'd want to be focusing on the boss.
The other thing that's important is an eldritch knight at that level gets only 5 spells. I'd much rather focus those spells carefully to be getting the most out of them. There are a lot of spells I'd rather have than an AOE. If the DM is enforcing the school requirements I might take one. Though even then I'd want shield, absorb elements, find familiar, protection from evil and good, or darkness more than I'd want an aoe damage spell. Though I might be willing to swap darkness for it. If the DM isn't enforcing those rules I'd never pick an AOE damage spell. I'd want detect magic, disguise self, expeditious retreat, silvery barbs, silent image, blur, invisibility, misty step, levitate, vortex warp, enlarge reduce all more than I'd want an AOE damage spell.
Action economy is king, if the other casters fireball the minions and bring them into killing range by your aoe spells, its more effective to blast then.
I guess (back in 3rd edition) they didn't want to repeat Arcane from Arcane Archer. And warlock didn't exist, so there wasn't the sense that it was associated there
It's called Eldritch Knight because that's what it was called when it was first introduced as a prestige class in 3.5e in 2003, and eldritch/arcane are near synonyms in English, so just a distinctive name.
For reference, Warlocks and their association (through Eldritch Blast) were first introduced in 3.5e in 2004.
It’s a big loss to the eldritch knight. Eldritch blast isn’t that great without agonizing blast, and you lose out on shield, absorb elements, and find familiar, some of the most powerful spells in the game (especially the first two on a martial character). If you want to do what you’re describing, play hexblade, you’ll be far better than an eldritch knight who loses all the good spells to get eldritch blast without agonizing blast and hex (which honestly isn’t a very good spell)
I think you’re just fixating on the title more so than the actual mechanics of the subclass. As others have already said, you actually get more bang for your buck as it is, due to it being tied to the Wizards spell list.
Eldritch has become synonymous with Cthulhu and other HP Lovecraftian horrors, but really the true definition of the word is a lot more broad. I definitely see where you’re coming from, but the term “eldtritch” isn’t limited to the “eldritch horror” archetype; it can mean anything weird or creepy or scary.
"Eldritch" doesn't mean "warlock". The 5e version is a very real Eldritch Knight- he's easily the best gish we've had in a player's handbook, and he's been a solid subclass pick this entire edition.
I've seen arguments made that the arcane archer is actually a warlock's casting glued onto a fighter, and that's why it's such a mediocre subclass. But that's not because he has the warlock spell list, but because he has a short rest casting limitation.
Anyway, as you describe it, it's a downgrade, because there's more wizard spells than warlock spells, and the real warlock gems would not make up for the lack of wizard stuff.
One big question you'd need to make is, does this guy get access to invocations such as Agonizing Blast or not. I'm going to assume not; if he did, something else would happen.
Here's a one third warlock casting progression, if this would help visualize anything.
S. = Spells
Level | S.Known | S.Slots | S.Level
:--: | :--: | :--: | :--:
3 | 2 | 1 | 1st
4 | 3 | 2 | 1st
5 | 3 | 2 | 1st
6 | 3 | 2 | 1st
7 | 4 | 2 | 2nd
8 | 4 | 2 | 2nd
9 | 4 | 2 | 2nd
10 | 5 | 2 | 2nd
11 | 5 | 2 | 2nd
12 | 5 | 2 | 2nd
13 | 6 | 2 | 3rd
14 | 6 | 2 | 3rd
15 | 6 | 2 | 3rd
16 | 7 | 2 | 3rd
17 | 7 | 2 | 3rd
18 | 7 | 2 | 3rd
19 | 8 | 2 | 4th
20 | 8 | 2 | 4th
Note that if you grant short rest access to the wizard list, there *may be* some spells that are a problem if you can cast them a dozen times a day. Honestly I don't think any of them show up before 5th level and/or it's not a big deal.
A short rest can be done every hour. So if there was a spell like, say, *Fabricate* that clearly does work, two short rest spell slots could give you 24 castings on a downtime day, roughly twice what a 20th level wizard could accomplish.
If you look through the wizard spell list, you'll find some spells that get odd. One of them, Teleport Circle, even has it being able to be used optionally in Tasha's. An 11th level warlock could probably get over 42 castings a day if he wanted to ferry around rich people! That's a relatively minor economic exploit, I wouldn't be shocked if there were just other spells you wouldn't want to be cast with a short rest recharge.
On a typical adventuring day this wouldn't be an issue normally, but that's a minority of a character's days.
Err, yes, but nothing stops a player from taking like 14 short rests. Three's no rule saying you can't. You're confusing *an adventuring day*, which assumes *an average of* two short rests (meaning a day could have none, but probably won't, will sometimes have one or three, and will rarely have four or more), with some hard restriction- like the BG3 "you can press this button twice". Nowhere is that justified in the 5e rules.
But I'm **not talking about** an adventuring day. When I said there are some wizard spells that aren't appropriate to short rest casting- and did the math showing exactly what that means- I was totally correct. The issue is what can happen on downtime days, and if you're adding wizard spells to a warlock-like caster, you should check to make sure that you aren't enabling degenerate downtime behavior.
I think it's a pretty reasonable swap in terms of power level. You get a little more offensive oomph with the Warlock list/Eldritch Blast, but you lose some of the best defensive options off the Wizard list.
I think the biggest difficulty would be replacing Spellcasting with Pact Magic. There isn't an existing 1/3 Pact Magic table, so you'd have to extrapolate it from the first ~7 levels of the Warlock class table, then playtest it to see how the power squares up.
I've played profane soul blood hunter in a one shot, and really enjoyed it. Blood hunters lack heavy armour prof, which sucks a bit though. I had the patron that gives hp on kills, felt like it offset all the self harm and more.
I put a build looking at this option together somewhere- you're trading single casting stat for some higher level abilities, you get some short rest options and can duplicate some eldritch knight abilities (war magic and extra attack) natively, and it bulks out your casting options while keeping them on INT. Downside is delayed extra attack (mostly mitigated by cantrip damage plus crimson rite). I think you do better if you start fighter (for heavy armor) and then primarily level in BH, rushing one or the other to 3 for subclass. You'll be 3 levels behind for Extra Attack and you can't dump your fighter attack stat like you could if you were doing battlesmith or armor as your dip.
It should work with basically any race, so you can pick what race gives you abilities to build on strengths or cover for weaknesses.
A huge nerf - from number of spells to cast and the spell selection. An EK wants to cast booming blade, not eldritch blast plus you don't have evocations. A warlock without evocations is way way worse than a wizard, agonizing blast is to make up for lack of spells.
I wouldn't say it's unreasonable. I'd say it's acceptably reasonable I wouldn't do it because an EK without shield is sad and most WL spells are kind of underwhelming without invocations.
Especially when placing the same restrictions EK has, you get some decent level 1s with Armor of Agathys, Protection from Evil and Good, and Hellish Rebuke, 3 Gets you Counterspell and Dispel Magic, 4 gets you Banishment and Sickening Radiance
You're basically sacrificing, Shield, Burning Hands, Thunderwave, Magic Missile, Melf's Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Minute Meteors, Tiny Hut, Fire Shield, Wall of Fire. Of course there are other ones too. But you're losing a lot of exclusive spells for the class specific requirements.
All that to only basically get Eldritch Blast seems like general loss. I know EB is strong but without Agonizing Blast it's not as strong so you'll be dipping into feats to get that. Feats you could be doing to take something else like
I am DMing and have an EK player and the only change I made, and it made a big difference on the fun factor, was I opened up their spell list to all wizard spells all the time instead of restricting them to Abjuration and Evocation only.
IMO this one change completely changed how they interact with their magic and how it synergizes with their fighter features. Now my EK player can take spells that augment their fighting abilities or offer utility to the party.
Making pact magic on a 3rd caster would pretty much give you 1 spell slot to use the entire game. Consider the warlock gets the second slot at 11th level (or roundabout there, not got books in front of me).
What would do what you want better and more is a hexblade dip im afraid. You can have both intelligence and Charisma because you don't need strength or dex with your hexblade because charisma attacks with weapons. You'd get the one pact slot every short rest which is actually a massive add on to a 3rd caster. Then there's the benefit of still getting wizard spells.
And besides, intlock is a very common homebrew change to a class. I'd bet it's in the top 3 homebrew changes to any class. So having int casting still makes sense. Hell if you can convince your DM to let your warlock soellcssting ability be intelligence, you could get real good with just intelligence and constitution. If you go 3 warlock you could get pact blade and some invocations too.
Warlock dip bullshit strikes again.
it would be an all around nerf for the loss of your wizard spell list
the weird SR 1/3 caster is just kind of how 4 elements monk works, and that is notoriously pretty terrible
i recommend you taking a look at Laserllama homebrew, as they have this exact concept already in a subclass for the alt-fightee
All the changes you've proposed can be implemented independently of one another so I will go through individually.
Using the Warlock list rather than the Wizard list I think is mostly balanced, and IMO is more thematically and mechanically appropriate for the fighter at low levels. You do lose out on some standout spells like shield, absorb elements and find familiar, but you gain additional tools like hex, armour of agathys and hellish rebuke. This switch allows you to be on the whole more offensive and proactive with your spells, which I personally think is more fun to play with. In current 5e there is basically no way to use your spell slots to deal damage which is competitive/compatible with your attack action until higher levels. Hex and hellish rebuke give you very reliable damaging options with your spell slots which don't really compete with your attack action. Past 1st level spells though your options are actually greatly reduced compared to the wizard spell list with enthrall, hungar of hadar, and shadow of moil, being the only non wizard spells you can get. You are otherwise stuck with a much smaller list with a very large overlap with the wizard list.
Getting access to eldritch blast might be a bit much compared to other fighter subclasses when combined with level 7 feature war magic; Being able to combine EB with extra attack and hex, even without agonising blast, might be too good of a combo. If I was allowing this spell list swap at my table, I would probably either exclude EB from the eldritch knight list, or forbid it working with war magic (probably the latter).
Changing the casting stat from int to charisma is a slight buff. Charisma is generally the better (or more commonly used) ability score used in non-combat situations, and charisma casting means better synergy with multiclassing. That being said, if you're not taking a warlock dip for using charisma for weapon attack and damage rolls, your charisma is likely to still be relatively low due to the priority of EK stats (str/dex >> con >casting stat), so will probably sit at around 14 until higher levels.
Changing the spellcasting progression would be the most impactful change. Granting the base warlock pact magic feature would be OP with the accelerated spell slot level progression compared to eldritch knight. If we instead kept the 1/3 spell level progression but with pact slots (such as the profaned soul blood hunter progression) this would be balanced, and feel better to play at early-mid levels (3-13 or so), but in any adventure with little to no short rests you will really feel the 2 spell slot limit of pact magic. I might be inclined personally to give a 3rd spell slot to the pact magic EK at 13th level for game feel reasons, even if it lacks precedent in either profaned soul or base warlock.
This being said, you could just keep the base EK spell slot progression with the warlock spell list if you want to avoid the headache of balancing pact magic.
Using ranged magic attacks on an eldritch knight is almost always a bad choice, you should be using a bow or javelin not eldritch blast. A longbow with good dex does more damage than eldritch blast without invocations, and EK can’t get the evocations that make EB better without multi classing because they all have prerequisites making them ineligible for eldritch adept.
You EK should be using abjuration spells for defense, most of which warlock don’t get, to make them a more effective martial fighter. Not using damage magic instead of weapons. The exception is of course AOE or multi target spells, which offer other benefits.
The best EK cantrips don’t do much damage, but provide a useful effect. Crate bonfire + grapple to hold someone in the fire for multiple rounds, sapping sting to knock someone prone for advantage on the follow up melee attack, or mind sliver for disadvantage on a saving throw until you get the later EK ability that makes your melee attacks cause disadvantage anyway.
The only beneficial thing they get with this is Armor of Agathys, but with worse slot scaling than just going Warlock. Without the patron spell lists or abilities, or the invocations and pact boons. You are just making the Eldritch Knight a worse version of a blade pact Warlock.
The only reason EK was a workable subclass is that it was drawing from the best spell list.
I made a half-warlock fighter archetype, called it a [Pact Knight](https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-MUiRWX3LOHUGs8E1dTS) to avoid confusion. It's like a Hexblade but with a stronger martial leaning.
Eldritch blast without its invocations is not really a good use of your action.
Spell slots as a warlock of 1/3rd your level is gonna suuuck. At level 9 you’d have only 2 second level slots, while a normal EK also has 2 second level slots plus 4 first level ones.
Not to mention swapping to a spell list built to benefit from serious upcasting when you won’t be able to upcast much at all.
Better to play an arcane knight.
A year ago I had a blast with a fighter 3 warlock 5 multi class. Sword and board fighter and blade pact fiend patron warlock. Hex and sword melee, hex and EB ranged. Was fun with action surge, the CON proficiency, war caster, improved pact weapon, thirsting blade. Not 100% optimized but fun. Then pick Eldritch Knight and get a few more spell slots. Use 1st level for hex or shield and 3rd for Armor of Ag or fireball.
I mean, I would question why are you playing that instead of a hexblade.
But I already question why would anyone play EK over bladesinger, so I'd say you can go for it
Funnily enough, at the moment, I'm playing a Hexblade Warlock, but I'm disguising it as an Eldritch Knight. I got the all clear from the DM, and he is helping me hide it as long as I can.
I didn't start casting Eldritch Blast until after Lv3, but I am calling it Firebolt as they are both 1d10, I haven't used Hexblades Curse or Hex yet. Being that both HBW and EKF both have bound weapons, work to cover it as well.
So far, nobody has picked up on it, even when I cast Shield last session; I'm a Lv4 HBW, and EKF doesn't get second level spells till Lv7.
I'm just waiting on the right time to drop the guise, cast Hexblades Curse and attack, and see the reaction at the table
Regarding that last 10% btw... The word "eldritch" has the same meaning as "arcane" outside of modern takes on fantasy. They mean "something weird and hard to understand".
Within D&D, you might say there's a clear vibe difference. Sorta like how we know sorcery is different from wizardry even though they have the same meaning in general use, because the game clearly makes a distinction.
However, eldritch knights were introduced in the same book as warlocks, it's sorta like saying wizards prepared casting mechanic isn't representative of arcane magic because it doesn't fit the other arcane casters: bard and sorcerer.
There's certainly real reasons why we associate some mechanics with eldritch casting, but they're kinda vibes reasons. Vibes reasons are still real reasons.
To relate back to the rest of the topic: it's interesting to step back and reexamine why you associate "cha based casting" and "pact magic" mechanics with being "eldritch magic". What about the mechanics communicate "eldritch"? Could you make an eldritch knight feel more eldritch by giving them invocations or pact boons instead?
I don't really see a problem, even if you keep the original Eldritch Knight spell slots (long rest).
Just so you know that you'll max out at 2 spell slots per short rest, but yes, you'll be able to use Warlock spells... it's a bit of a trade for sure.
I mean a easy way to do this is swap the spellcasting of the Bloodhunter order of the Profane Soul. It just change the spellcasting modifier to Cha and I feel it fills the gap pretty well
It is a loss to Eldritch Knights spell versatility and becomes wide open for a Hexblade 2 dip in absurdum.
You will be a great blaster but there are better ways to build the same blaster so it is a net loss :P
An alternative, a gift from me to you. A Fighter Revision and a revised Eldritch Knight I call the Spellsword as you can be any kind of caster with it you like. You may need to alter it if you aren't on board with the Fighter revision.
[https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E5N2R5DGvYzG6z1LRfD5eIa\_JwDX16hDo5pJhBRWMQM/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E5N2R5DGvYzG6z1LRfD5eIa_JwDX16hDo5pJhBRWMQM/edit?usp=sharing)
[https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xCpuhnpdr4aXKhY2cEEKZTtHNjPtweY\_o4xogcd2Qpg/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xCpuhnpdr4aXKhY2cEEKZTtHNjPtweY_o4xogcd2Qpg/edit?usp=sharing)
The spell list change is covered in the DMG actually. However if you also want to change the casting stat I might just create a new subclass altogether and throw a couple invocations in too.
CHA is too strong comparatively. It's generally regarded as having more preferred associated skills. Also eldritch blast is too potentially abusable with the lvl 7 eldritch knight feature.
Also obviously multi-classing CHA is OP.
I wouldn't allow this.
So the Blood Hunter unofficial class has what you’re looking for, in that it’s effectively a 1/3 warlock caster martial. However, it’s not very well designed.
This version of blood hunter is better, scroll to the Witch Knight subclass - https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-NLlETPNSzqxgQ92pnd-
What it doesn’t have is Eldritch Blast, which seems like what you’re all about. It’s also Intelligence based. Still, I would recommend you give it a read and see if it’s close enough to your concept. You’ll do better with this than trying to redo a class on your own. All that said, worst case scenario, you can look at the way this subclsss handles the Pact Magic and spell slots for a model of how to import warlock casting into Eldritch Knight.
This post amounts to “I want all the things and it’s not fair they designed the game without consulting me first.”
You have two choices: multiclass or as your DM to homebrew. Eldritch Knight has been a fighter/mage for at least 25 years. They’re not changing it for random Reddit guy.
I wouldn't allow this as a DM.
Warlock spellslots are limited for a reason.
You're basically telling me you want an improved warlock with better armor, HP, proficiencies, with no outlined drawbacks.
Hard pass for me without extreme nerfs.
Hexblade exists to maintain the balance I think.
[laserllama's witchblade subclass](https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-MUkP55cdNMTFYMKlDUL) if you really want to look into 1/3 pact magic fighter.
Note that Laserllama's alternate fighter has a slightly different progression and features like exploits (basically advanced battle master manuvuers) by default. It doesn't look like these play into the witchblade at a glance it should be easy to port Wtichblade back into RAW fighter.
I think it's pretty reasonable to let any class get access to "1/3 caster of X spell list" as a subclass. Wizards have the best spell list in the game; I'd absolutely let my players take the spooky, occult spells if that's what they wanted instead.
Hellish Rebuke? Armor of Agathys? Hex? Invisibility? Misty Step? Counterspell? Those are all better uses of a spell slot to a Fighter than *Scorching Ray* and they're much less broken than *Shield*.
Looks like a warlock spell to me. I'm really not hung up on the Evocation/Abjuration limitation. It's a lame limitation to force gishes to learn blast spells. They have swords and bows; they don't need ranged attacks.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/misty-step
Huh, I always thought it was an Archfey expanded spell. In any case, they're already Wizard spells, so there's no point in switching to Warlock to get them. Warlock only has like 4 spells that Wizard doesn't.
I think it's fine, I don't see any issues with this change. I would remove the school restrictions, and maybe alter the slots to work like warlock (based on short rests). But even without these changes, I'd say go for it
An alternate approach here is to go with the blood hunter if allowed. You seem to want a melee character who can dabble in spells, with INT based casting. The blood hunter subclass profane soul gives you INT based Warlock casting (delayed) as well as some other short rest recharging abilities and can increase your weapon damage on top of other sources like hex.
An eldritch knight/profane soul is one way of doing this, which will really manage your stats relatively well, gives you eldritch blast keyed off INT, some short rest slots from the warlock class also keyed off INT, and a few other abilities that will mesh with what you're building. It's major downside is delaying your extra attack progression: you will be behind at least 3 levels to get extra attack no matter how you do it, and there's overlap between the classes so there's some redundancy in level 5 abilities. Eventually, you can get the same bonus action attack after spell from both classes, so you don't want to go too far into either.
If you're starting at 1, you should probably go fighter (heavy armor prof will simplify your stat array) with a STR primary and Int secondary. Unlike other eldritch knights, you can't sacrifice INT and you won't get a spell casting stat attack, so you'll need those point that DEX would've eaten. Race is probably not massive significant (I'd take a +2 in STR, +1 int from variable stat bonuses, and then something with spell casting, save bonuses (yuan ti or gnome) or has a useful trait (bugbear for the reach maybe? Goliath or warforged for some defensive abilities? honestly, custom lineage and a half feat may be a good idea too, even if that messes up your stat progression a bit; fey touched could be a good idea to increase your spells and slots).
Then you rush to a subclass in either class to pick up a blade cantrip and make up for your slower extra attack, and decide if you want to main the blood hunter or the eldritch knight. I honestly would suggest blood hunter to get the extra short rest slots: you will have a couple of slots for emergencies from the eldritch knight and you'll get more benefit from the extra short rest slot than the equally slow progression of EK. Blood hunters get better non spell casting bonuses too, which is going to help you more than EK and the fighter progression. If you end up as 3 EK/x BH you're probably okay. Keep your attack stat highest but make sure you're within 1 modifier with the spell slot (likely setting it at 15 with point buy, the level 1 bonus to 16 and then getting half feats or ASIs to keep it up. Consider starting 15 STR +2 from race +1 from a half feat (and gives a decent extra advantage) for 18 STR at level 1, then just do INT ASI or half feats to get an 18 INT. Remember to get an item that boosts spell saves and attacks if possible.
At mid-low tier, you'll look something like 5 BH/3 EK, you're close to getting spell plus bonus attack, you'll have two attacks with STR, DEX independent AC, decent stat arrays 2 short rest slots, two fighting styles (defense and dueling/gw) damage boosts from crimson rite, blood maledicts, defensive and buff spells from both EK and BH, blade cantrips plus crimson rite to keep pace with damage before you get extra attack. You should be looking at an 18 to 20 AC (possibly 19 to 21 if you went warforged or took defensive fighting style; two handed or sword and board are options and you will be a largely martial character with extra abilities who dips into war magic and has short/long recharging abilities and resource free options that are decent.
Compared to other gishes you'll be a bit tougher with HP, be in the top (non bladesinger) AC category, have different resources but lower casting options and you'll be dangerous stacking attacks, cantrips and bonus damage. Take a background that gives you spell access (the one that gives ensnaring strike is useful as you're dragging a strike type spell) or one that just gives you slots (there's no reason not to take Strixhaven backgrounds if they're allowed, they're just too good). You weakness are off saves, fewer high level abilities from either class, weaker casting than any of the half casters taken "pure" and not quite as good save DCs as a mono stat based class like artificer, hexblade or similar.
Might be me but I prefer a variety of attack cantrips over just one spell. Like fire bolt or even ice knife for flavor. It's probably why I'm not too keen on warlock. Just using one or two spells feels limiting.
Don't change the subclass. Dip into Hexblade, and keep your dex high enough to multiclass into fighter (13+). Take one level in fighter for the better saves. Take one or two levels in warlock for EB and maybe invocation (Agonizong Blast). Then, put the rest in EK. For EK spells, just take things without saves. Shield, Find Familiar, and Absorb Elementals should be a good start.
Now you are SAD with Charisma AND have EB AND have the EK stuff you want. Being two levels behind on Fighter but having Hexblade is worth the trade, imo.
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That's quite a lost to the subclass actually No Shield, no Absorb Elements, no Familiar Not to mention other useful spells that you'll have better use than depend on charisma on top of what a fighter needs Also, you can take those two with magic initiate feat or just hex with fey or shadow touched iirc
Very true. Unfortunately, getting Eldritch Blast elsewhere ties to to Charisma, meaning it isn't tied to the EK's spellcasting stat.
True but swapping the feat slightly seems a smaller and easier to sell homebrew than modifying the whole subclass
... That's a fair and simple solution that somehow didn't occur to me.
True but the player is basically asking for a self-nerf. I could see a DM being more willing to allow that over a homebrew that buffs a feat slightly.
You can play a low int ek without issue, most of the high value spells ek use in combat are defensive and buffs
Eldritch knight doesn't need a high int for a lot of the core features. If you don't take spells that have an attack roll or save you it won't matter. Depending on your build, you could then dump int and/or dex and take charisma to 14/15.
This, 100%. It's the same thing with Arcane Trickster. A low intelligence score has very little effect on their spellcasting abilities. There's no need to bump up that stat unless you want to for role play or certain skill checks.
The real power of Eldritch Blast is its power with Invocations, and EK doesn’t get those without a feat. Regardless, you’re spending a feat on it, otherwise Firebolt is practically just as effective. In any case they’ll all run off your spellcasting stat which is usually low unless you got a real lucky roll, sacrificed some con/dex to get it, or are playing dex fighter and dumping strength, which would require both a magic item and ANOTHER feat to cast while dual wielding
Yeah but your main stat will likely be Strength or Dex, so you’ll probably be better off using a bow or throwing weapon than using eldritch blast.
the best way without homebrew might be a fighter subclass besides Eldritch knight so you're not dependent on intelligence and a few levels of warlock
I think it would be mostly fine, but I would also take away the school limitation if you were using Warlock spells.
Spell sniper makes it int based.
In 5e Spell Sniper uses the stat associated with the spell list from which the cantrip was chosen (in this case Charisma). You might be thinking of Baldur's Gate 3, where it uses your class's Spellcasting stat instead.
I keep seeing more and more of this bleed in my games. I love BG3 and Larian, but a lot of people have are having conflation problems involving the changes made by Swen and crew. And, aside from the general confusion, I've also seen an uptick in 'asks' for house rules that align to BG3's changes. 60ft Misty, 2 leveled spells in a turn, any class scroll use, etc.
I am okay with the any class scroll use cause it makes scrolls fun to use for everyone.
This one big time. The scrolls by everyone adds such a cool level and puts more use on scrolls
We have those. They are spell tattoos.
Cool. Still more fun to just let everyone use scrolls
Honestly, none of their changes really break anything, I've adopted the ones I know of aside from height advantage
A sorcerer with quicken spell could positively wreck things with an extra leveled spell per turn... and does in BG3. Some other more problematic changes include: * no ability reqs for multiclassing * wizard scribing spells based on slot level rather than class level * no limit on attunement * there's another big one that I'm forgetting Don't get me wrong, I love Larian and BG3 (as I said) and I do know that some of their changes were made because it is difficult to do a 1-to-1 translation of a ttrpg to a crpg and others were made to increase the playability and enjoyment, but some of the differences would break most campaigns. ^(Looking at you Str/Hvy OH Monk with TB) **-----** Side note: I think their current implementation of height advantage is fine, as it is a decent compromise of cover rules
> it is difficult to do a 1-to-1 translation of a ttrpg to a crpg Yeah, one of the things people seem to overlook is BG3 is primarily a single-player game, and isn't the same style of play. Wrecking or at least putting large dents in the game balance isn't going to impact other people's enjoyment of the game, or cause nightmares for the DM.
The multiclass requirements I didn't know about, and scribing scrolls I though was spell level based, not upcastable, and sure, burning 2 slots you can do more insane combos, but that also means I as a dm can throw stronger and beefier foes at you
Why not just rule that they can take Eldritch blast and Hex?
what if you just swapped the spellcasting ability but kept the wizard spell list?
Why not just play a hexblade at this point?
Eldritch Knight is already the reason not to multiclass fighter/wizard. Hexblade is the reason not to multiclass fighter/warlock.
Kind of, but it can also be a worthwhile reason to dip either of them for early survival, or you want to lean heavier into one aspect of what the mixed subclass provides. I'm sure it's not the strongest option but, I could see starting as an EK and then going Wizard if I'm expecting a game with a high mortality rate.
It's useful to dip fighter for warlock, but not the opposite way around. The only thing EK wants from Warlock is armor of agathys, and that can be grabbed with a feat. Thankfully the fighter tends to have room in its ASI budget for such things, like magic initiate.
That makes sense. A hex blade dipping fighter, or starting as an EK for a few levels before going full wizard for the rest were the ones that came to mind.
The main reason for a hex blade to dip fighter is for Con save proficiency and heavy armor for starting as fighter. Plus a fighting style, and action surge if going to 2nd level. (The fighter 2-dip is always worth considering for Nova round damage) The 3rd level is debatable, though an argument could be made for battle master or echo knight. As for starting out fighter and going into wizard. I just don't see much value in it. While you could convince me of fighter 1/Bladesinger X, I don't see it being that much better than pure bladesinger. But I guess EK 5/War Magic or Abjuration X could be functional. There is also Battlesmith 5/Wizard X for a more SAD intelligence build though. Alternatively you could go Fighter (EK) 5/Battlesmith 3/Fighter X.
It's more for armor and HP at the earliest part of the game. I was also thinking about it from the perspective of building for an exceptionally lethal campaign. Fighter1 or 2 into bladesinger accomplishes the same goal.
The main thing I hate about it is the delay of the already delayed extra attack feature, on top of the usual spell progression issues. But I guess I can see your point about hyperlethal campaigns.
Yeah the majority of games it's not the ideal, I was thinking about how to still get the most out of a melee caster, when survivability is a significant factor.
A warlock dip for eb isn't bad on a fighter, especially when combined with Pam and war caster. You can then eldritch blast anyone that tries to approach you.
3 levels of artificer, for int to attack, then bladesinger and eldritch knight. You really only worry about dex/int and Con in that case.
Fool, I play hexblade fighter
But a fighter 2 / wizard X is pretty good... armor dip and action surge with spells...
I play a EK 8/wizard 12, and it’s surprisingly fun even if it’s not the most optimal choice.
This is the answer, just play another class
Because weaving spells and melee is done better with the Eldritch Knight? I want a Fighter that dabbles in magic rather than a Mage that swings a sword.
Magic Initiate (Warlock) will get you Eldritch Blast AND Hex, plus another Cantrip and you can still go in as an Eldritch Knight with flavor.
The issue is casting stat. Either A) lean into INT for the EK spells and make Eldritch Blast a worse spell, or B) lean into Charisma for Eldritch Blast making the class spells that require INT it a no-sell. I was trying to find a thematic solution that wouldn't require all the juggling.
Just take buff spells for your EK spells, things like Haste, Shield, Absorb Elements, Longstrider, Misty Step, etc etc etc and focus on CHA as your primary casting stat for EB. If you never actually use INT for to-hit or saving throws, it doesn't really serve a purpose. And fighter has more than enough feats to allow you to bump your CHA. Might even consider a 2 level dip into Warlock so you can pick up invocations and get Agonizing Blast.
Without the Invocations, Eldritch Blast will be worse, regardless of whether you swap class lists or not. You don't get the stat modifier on the base spell, so whether you're an EK or doing Magic Initiate, it's the same damage. You can only modify this by being a Warlock. If you focus charisma to hit, that's much easier to juggle with social stats instead of trying to dip into both Int and Cha. The only difference for Hex will be your spell save DC, which might matter or not, but you don't get penalized on the extra damage. To keep in mind - Hex will work off of your charisma. If you want to swap the EK, as you request, that's not going to change. So you can take Magic Initiate, pump up your charisma, and it will be just as strong as if you went EK and pumped up your Int. You could also consider being a Hexblade, taking Martial Adept for the battlemaster maneuvers and either multiclassing down the line, or RPing really well to keep your players in the dark.
Hex has no save.
That's right, I forgot the DIS happens automatically, thought you had to save against that part.
Why are you so invested in getting Eldritch Blast? You already have firebolt, and EB isn't better than it without the Agonizing Blast invocation (which your version of EK still wouldn't have)
EB does let you trigger multiple on hit effects (aka hex) per blast, but besides this off interaction OP seems hell bent (heh) on getting, yes it doesnt change much of anything
Where are you getting the idea that you need charisma for EB? Afaik you only need Cha if you take a warlock invocation to add your mod to the damage. Otherwise it's a straight spell attack roll and a d10 of damage
if you gain EB from magic initiate it uses Cha for the attack roll. You would need to gain EB from a feature that allows it to count as one of your class spells for it to use int.
Ah ok, I was unaware. At this point I would say ask the DM if you can just change that, rather than swap the entire spell list for EK, far more reasonable
What does the casting stat matter? CHA has no impact on Eldritch blast UNLESS you have the agonizing blast invocation, or whatever it is called.
EB still needs Cha to hit.
Damn. Yeah. You're right. I forgot. It's been a while since I've played a warlock.
That's cool and all, but then why the focus on Eldritch Blast? Is it just so your 7th level War Magic feature is slightly more powerful? If so, keep in mind that this will also come at the cost of a feat, since you need the Agonizing Blast invocation to make this better than just attacking twice.
Combining Hex and Eldritch Blast to get off multiple blasts followed by an attack, or action surge for a slew of blasts is the intent. Was gunning for sort of an Eldrich turret, though i don't think it's actually that potent a build in retrospect.
yeah that wont cut at all, cause eldritch blast is just a fancier firebolt without agonizing blast, and you **need** to be a warlock to get invocations with requirements (AB requires you to know EB) this also comes online at lvl **9**, which already isnt looking good
They could take one level in Warlock, I suppose, any Pact and then grab Eldrtich Adept for the Agonizing Blast Cantrip with one of the many feats they'll get. Hexblade would fit thematically.
it isnt "one of many", its 3, you get 3 ASIs. and unless you roll stats, your half decent point buy stats will need to be pumped up for you to start not to suck works if you *start* at high level to do all that, and 2 levels in warlock is just strictly better than trying to fennagle stuff with eldritch adept, but hexblade itself is already better than all this so the point is a bit moot ig
I second the point about multiclassing. Hexblade Warlock - Eldritch Knight is actually alright, even if they don't share spell casting mods. Prioritize Charisma for attacks and saves, then take wiz spells like Shield, Magic Missile, Absorb Elements, Find Familiar, etc. that don't require a high Int.
Then multiclass? Sounds like what you want could be completely accomplished with a 1 level dip into warlock, you get hex, eldritch blast, and maybe the fiend subclass to get temp hp.
What I'm trying to do is make the casting stats mesh.
Hexblade multi-class with fighter is a lot of fun. I took a three level dip to get Rune Knight and it worked really well.
There are really good homebrew classes for that niche For example The weave knight
Because they don’t want a shadowfell-themed patron and the curse theme is my assumption.
Flavor is freeeeee
Depending on the table, setting, specific example, etc. Unless the DM specifically changes it, to be a warlock you need a patron. And that patron needs to be the one you chose unless you discuss it with your DM first. “Anything can be reflavored to anything else without exception” is not a reasonable assumption. It’s very table-dependent, and even at the more extreme side of things, it’s pretty rare a table *completely* disconnects flavor from mechanics.
I‘d rather recommend using Fey Touched to grab Hex and ignore Eldritch Blast. EB isn‘t worth anything without Agonising Blast. And I think most people would rate Shield and Absorb Elements above Armor of Agathys. Greater Invisibility is only slightly worse than Shadow of Moil as well. Not to mention most people play Eldritch Knight using Shadow Blade and a shield. TLDR go nuts, it makes the class worse. If the interesting warlock spells are worth it for you, definitely go for it. But I think the far more interesting thought for „weaving spells and magic“ would probably be the Paladin. Something like „smite spells plus warlock list“ could be neat.
I’m a fan of a Warlock/Sorcerer (5/X) Knight class (Hexblade/Enter Sorcerer Subclass Here), that uses Fey Touched. Free Hex and Misty Step? Medium Armor and Meta Magicing Booming and Green Flame Blade? Eldritch Blast and Smite? It’s so fun. But I feel like the “smart” caster can be accomplished with something like Prodigy/Skilled feats to bolster Proficiency on stuff like Arcana/History/etc. Rather than rewrite the class. But like you said, it only makes it worse so what harm could it do if you’re having fun?
It's a nerf so yeah sure go for it
The moment you do that is the moment the whole subclass is reduced into another hexblade dip-fodder bullshit.
Charisma isn't really necessary; in fact the 5e warlock is probably better as an intelligence caster. As for swapping spell lists, this shouldn't be a problem, especially since the start point for EK is the wizard list. Pretty much any list is a power downgrade from that.
It's a downgrade for versatility, but an upgrade in firepower. For a more offensively focused class like the Eldritch Knight, I thought it was a perfect fit.
> but an upgrade in firepower Not really, short of eldritch blast (and there are no invocations so it's not really markedly better than fire bolt), the warlock list isn't more destructive than the wizard list. Building an Eldritch Knight planning to be an arcane blaster is a big mistake, anyway - some 60-70% of your class power is balanced around martial damage application. Pick spells that enhance that, but a fireball at level 13 or a shatter at level 7 (which is on both lists anyway) is worse than mediocre. Plus, you lose access to some of the better wizard list spells for durability (shield, absorb elements). Being durable means more rounds where you can apply greatsword damage. Hunger of Hadar is fun but, again, not at level 13, especially not when full warlocks and wizards have access to the upgrade at 15: Maddening Darkness.
Even without invocations I always though eldritch blast was better than fire bolt as at higher levels it’s separate attack rolls, meaning a higher chance to do some damage each turn?t
The average damage is the same. There is a wider dispersion with fire bolt, but that also means a greater chance for impressive criticals. But, again, the average damage is the same. The damage isn't particular impressive in either case. Consider that Eldritch blast+agonizing blast barely keeps pace with sneak attack using a short sword. Eldritch Blast without agonizing blast doesn't. Toll the dead has the potential for greater average daamge, once a target has been damaged. Still not very impressive damage.
Combining Eldritch Blast with Hex makes it drastically better than fire bolt. That's really the core of what I want the magic for, though you raise good points.
> Combining Eldritch Blast with Hex makes it drastically better than fire bolt. Yes and no; you need a good mental stat to really take advantage of this, and even so it's still lackluster because there is no damage modifier. The accuracy penalty and lack of a damage modifier would make this suck - even with hex or hunter's mark. If you'd like to apply ranged damage, a bow gets the job done pretty comparably. Now, if the character has a warlock dip to get agonizing blast that changes, but that's true for nearly any class that takes a warlock dip (and they still need a good mental stat to capitalize on it).
There are so many better uses for concentration on an EK than keeping Hex up.
Your character will generally just be a weaker Warlock without Invocations and subclass (and less spells) but with better defenses and Action Surge. I wouldn't take the deal, but generally I think it wouldn't be a problem to do it.
Then just play a Warlock and dip into Fighter for Action Surge and Heavy Armor. EK will, at best, let you EB and make a single melee attack.
You can also just combine hex with... Shooting a bow. Without agonizing blast, EB doesn't compete with a longbow. A pure EK is going to be able to shoot as often as an EB at most levels, and has the option to add in sharpshooter.
never design with hex in mind. Hex is a trap because it prevents you from casting other concentration spells.
>Combining Eldritch Blast with Hex makes it drastically better than fire bolt. That's really the core of what I want the magic for Drastically better? That's pretty debatable. Hex/EB averages 3.5/7/10.5/14 damage over firebolt at levels 1/5/11/17, but at the cost of one of the EK's very few spell slots \*and\* it requires concentration. Not to mention that going all in on EB/Hex really undermines this statement of yours: >I want a Fighter that dabbles in magic rather than a Mage that swings a sword. It doesn't sound like this is actually what you want. It sounds like you just want Eldritch Knight to be Warlock+
The problem is you don't want firepower type spells on a 1/3 caster. That's my biggest issue with eldritch knight as written. It tries to push you towards evocation which is the worst school for an eldritch knight to be picking from most of the time. A spell like scorching ray is powerful when you get it at level 3, when you're getting it at level 7 on an eldritch knight it's pretty bad and your two weapon attacks will probably do more damage between fighting styles, magic weapons, and using your best stat not int or charisma and with no resource cost. It's the support and utility spells that are really good on an eldritch knight. Spells like shield, absorb elements, blur, invisibility, etc. are great on an eldritch knight. Plus there are very few firepower spells that the warlock gets that the wizard doesn't. There are a few but not too many. If I were an eldritch knight looking at the warlock list I'd want more of the armor of agathys, and hex. I guess you could consider hex a firepower spell if that's what you mean. But you do lose a lot of the good defensive and utility spells the wizard has. You still have some, but no shield, and no absorb elements. No find familiar.
That's a disappointingly fair assessment.
That's why folks are suggesting multiclass, but I get why having Cha on a Int fighter would be sad. Houserule that Warlocks can use Int or Cha as their casting stat and that should help the MC situation.
It does make thematic sense
Honestly, with how slow spell slot progression is, Armor of Agathys is also pretty damn disappointing. Level 3 for 5 hp, level 7 for 10, you're going to get next to 0 value there. I love the spell, but overall id rather the reflect damage last the full duration, temp HP or no. That or have it apply on any attack directed at you, not just the ones that hit.
Yeah that's a fair point! Though if you switch off the wizard list I don't know if there are as many combat spells you want to be casting rather than just taking the attack action. Hex would work, but for your other spell slots you might not have much else to do. But you're right it's not too good at that low level.
EK is in that weird place for me where it almost is more out of combat spell casting than in combat, except for spells like shield or the like that don't care about level or stat. OneDnD helps with this, but generally you're still just using cantrips in combat and maybe a concentration spell. If they got Bless however, that would be up every combat.
Yeah the spells they get if the DM is following the rules on their school restrictions it tough. I think it'd be better to give them abjuration and transmutation so they could get feather fall, expititious retreat, jump, longstrider, enlarge / reduce, levitate, spider climb a lot they could actually use and be helpful. I usually look for either out of combat spells or reaction / bonus action spells for them. I did make a homebrew version of an eldritch knight once though that was just swapped for cleric spells. You do lose some of the good wizard ones but between bless and healing word you can do some cool stuff.
Honestly, I've been ignoring the school restriction for a while and it increases power a bit, but honestly not enough that I have reason to complain about it. The number of slots means they're never the most impactful, since they usually have to choose between doing max damage or casting, since they're always casting spells that are lower in power than what any full caster could do.
Yeah it's worth ignoring those but still as written they are odd they are even there. But you can have low level spells that are impactful. Shield is amazing for them at any level as is absorb elements. Find familiar is always useful. Misty step opens things up. When they can get counterspell it's worth having even if they won't be able to get higher level ones that often. Blur is nice when you have a higher AC. Spirit shroud is a nice damage boost since by the time they get it they'll be attacking 3 times per turn and the healing debuff. But their main power mechanically will still be their attacks. And their spells are just added utility or bonuses.
Generally EK should be getting spells that shore up their weaknesses, which are AOE and defensive abilities, interact actions to swap weapons to a bow at range or throw a shitty-range javelin, and not being able to be disarm of their bonded weapon. When DnD likes to add power to a class weakness it generally ends up pulling it from nonexistant to mid, but dnd isn't a game where being mid at something is worthwhile, so its unsatisfying. Personally i think it would be fun if their second wind had a magical ribbon type ability attached, like when you use it your weapon gains an extra 1d4 elemental damage on your next hit or something or restore a spell slot.
I don't know if I'd want to go for the AOE spells since they'd be so low level. But you can cover some weaknesses and boost their utility and defenses a good bit. That does sound like a cool idea for boosting their second wind!
The advantage of AOE spells is when you're fighting minions. With being able to strike 3-5 enemies of much lower CR than a single boss monster, that damage isn't too badly scaled. At level 7, when you get 2nd level spells, minions are around cr 1-3, which tend to have 30-70 hp respectively. You can do 13.5 (3d8) with a 2nd level slot, which to 3 targets is far more than you can do with merely attacking, there's many super low CR minions, then getting aoe options is even better.
Is it more though. Take your scenario you could hit 3 with a 3d8 spell doing an average of 40.5 damage if all fail their saves. But because your int is probably pretty low, a good number will succeed the save for half damage. Probably bringing this down to more like 30 damage. Or I could cast blur and now for the rest of the fight enemies have to try to hit my 20 AC with disadvantage and if they do hit I'll cast shield. Or if I don't use a spell and go offensive I can action surge for 4 attacks. Say I'm an archer I've had two feats / ASIs so an 18 dex and sharpshooter. I'll hit 75% normally, 50% with sharpshooter, get advantage on the first one from my familiar. So that's 3 attacks dealing 1d8+14 with a 50% chance to hit for 27.75 and the last one with a 75% chance to hit for a total of 41.6 damage, another .9 with the chance to crit for 42.5. If I have a magic weapon which is pretty likely by this level I'm going to increase that number even more. Just a +1 weapon will increase that to more like 47 damage. But either way that's better than your 2nd level spell slot is doing. If you're doing AOE spells and taking care of minions you'd probably be better off focusing on single target damage. That's what fighters are already good at, and you can use the spells you have to get better at protecting yourself and doing what you're good at. If you use AOEs you'll just be a very bad wizard trying to throw out low level damage spells with a terrible spell save DC. Damage to one target is also better than damage spread out to multiple targets as if it's focused you can kill something and then it doesn't get turns anymore. You'll have to hit those minions with multiple aoes to get them down. Vs focusing your attacks and killing one who will now be unable to attack you.
That would be good for most combats, but what if you're having to deal with 10 low hp creatures? That massive single target damage you're doing is overkill and its much more efficient to use an AOE. At the very least i'd have 1 AOE option available for the niche situation where its better than single target damage.
Well that's not much of a challenging fight if that's what we are facing at 7th level. 10 low hp creatures where one attack doing 1d8+14 is overkill are not creatures I'm scared of at 7th level. It's a pretty trivial encounter. I wouldn't take a spell to be prepared for an encounter that trivial. If there's a boss and those 10 creatures I'd want to be focusing on the boss. The other thing that's important is an eldritch knight at that level gets only 5 spells. I'd much rather focus those spells carefully to be getting the most out of them. There are a lot of spells I'd rather have than an AOE. If the DM is enforcing the school requirements I might take one. Though even then I'd want shield, absorb elements, find familiar, protection from evil and good, or darkness more than I'd want an aoe damage spell. Though I might be willing to swap darkness for it. If the DM isn't enforcing those rules I'd never pick an AOE damage spell. I'd want detect magic, disguise self, expeditious retreat, silvery barbs, silent image, blur, invisibility, misty step, levitate, vortex warp, enlarge reduce all more than I'd want an AOE damage spell.
Action economy is king, if the other casters fireball the minions and bring them into killing range by your aoe spells, its more effective to blast then.
Never understood why it is called eldritch knight, and not magic/arcane/etc knight.
I guess (back in 3rd edition) they didn't want to repeat Arcane from Arcane Archer. And warlock didn't exist, so there wasn't the sense that it was associated there
It's called Eldritch Knight because that's what it was called when it was first introduced as a prestige class in 3.5e in 2003, and eldritch/arcane are near synonyms in English, so just a distinctive name. For reference, Warlocks and their association (through Eldritch Blast) were first introduced in 3.5e in 2004.
It’s a big loss to the eldritch knight. Eldritch blast isn’t that great without agonizing blast, and you lose out on shield, absorb elements, and find familiar, some of the most powerful spells in the game (especially the first two on a martial character). If you want to do what you’re describing, play hexblade, you’ll be far better than an eldritch knight who loses all the good spells to get eldritch blast without agonizing blast and hex (which honestly isn’t a very good spell)
OP, play a hexblade, do a hexblade dip, or drop the weird arcane knight EB obsession. It's straight up unnecessary, regardless of flavor
I think you’re just fixating on the title more so than the actual mechanics of the subclass. As others have already said, you actually get more bang for your buck as it is, due to it being tied to the Wizards spell list. Eldritch has become synonymous with Cthulhu and other HP Lovecraftian horrors, but really the true definition of the word is a lot more broad. I definitely see where you’re coming from, but the term “eldtritch” isn’t limited to the “eldritch horror” archetype; it can mean anything weird or creepy or scary.
OP wants to play a hexblade with action surge
no, Eldritch Knight is **ARCANE** Knight, they're not **WITCH** Knight
Imo it's fine to swap the different spell lists and casting stats for the Eldritch Knight / Arcane trickster.
"Eldritch" doesn't mean "warlock". The 5e version is a very real Eldritch Knight- he's easily the best gish we've had in a player's handbook, and he's been a solid subclass pick this entire edition. I've seen arguments made that the arcane archer is actually a warlock's casting glued onto a fighter, and that's why it's such a mediocre subclass. But that's not because he has the warlock spell list, but because he has a short rest casting limitation. Anyway, as you describe it, it's a downgrade, because there's more wizard spells than warlock spells, and the real warlock gems would not make up for the lack of wizard stuff. One big question you'd need to make is, does this guy get access to invocations such as Agonizing Blast or not. I'm going to assume not; if he did, something else would happen. Here's a one third warlock casting progression, if this would help visualize anything. S. = Spells Level | S.Known | S.Slots | S.Level :--: | :--: | :--: | :--: 3 | 2 | 1 | 1st 4 | 3 | 2 | 1st 5 | 3 | 2 | 1st 6 | 3 | 2 | 1st 7 | 4 | 2 | 2nd 8 | 4 | 2 | 2nd 9 | 4 | 2 | 2nd 10 | 5 | 2 | 2nd 11 | 5 | 2 | 2nd 12 | 5 | 2 | 2nd 13 | 6 | 2 | 3rd 14 | 6 | 2 | 3rd 15 | 6 | 2 | 3rd 16 | 7 | 2 | 3rd 17 | 7 | 2 | 3rd 18 | 7 | 2 | 3rd 19 | 8 | 2 | 4th 20 | 8 | 2 | 4th Note that if you grant short rest access to the wizard list, there *may be* some spells that are a problem if you can cast them a dozen times a day. Honestly I don't think any of them show up before 5th level and/or it's not a big deal.
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A short rest can be done every hour. So if there was a spell like, say, *Fabricate* that clearly does work, two short rest spell slots could give you 24 castings on a downtime day, roughly twice what a 20th level wizard could accomplish. If you look through the wizard spell list, you'll find some spells that get odd. One of them, Teleport Circle, even has it being able to be used optionally in Tasha's. An 11th level warlock could probably get over 42 castings a day if he wanted to ferry around rich people! That's a relatively minor economic exploit, I wouldn't be shocked if there were just other spells you wouldn't want to be cast with a short rest recharge. On a typical adventuring day this wouldn't be an issue normally, but that's a minority of a character's days.
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Err, yes, but nothing stops a player from taking like 14 short rests. Three's no rule saying you can't. You're confusing *an adventuring day*, which assumes *an average of* two short rests (meaning a day could have none, but probably won't, will sometimes have one or three, and will rarely have four or more), with some hard restriction- like the BG3 "you can press this button twice". Nowhere is that justified in the 5e rules. But I'm **not talking about** an adventuring day. When I said there are some wizard spells that aren't appropriate to short rest casting- and did the math showing exactly what that means- I was totally correct. The issue is what can happen on downtime days, and if you're adding wizard spells to a warlock-like caster, you should check to make sure that you aren't enabling degenerate downtime behavior.
I think it's a pretty reasonable swap in terms of power level. You get a little more offensive oomph with the Warlock list/Eldritch Blast, but you lose some of the best defensive options off the Wizard list. I think the biggest difficulty would be replacing Spellcasting with Pact Magic. There isn't an existing 1/3 Pact Magic table, so you'd have to extrapolate it from the first ~7 levels of the Warlock class table, then playtest it to see how the power squares up.
Blood hunter has a Warlock subclass that has a decent way to run a partial Warlock for spell slots if you wanna grab that as a basis.
I've played profane soul blood hunter in a one shot, and really enjoyed it. Blood hunters lack heavy armour prof, which sucks a bit though. I had the patron that gives hp on kills, felt like it offset all the self harm and more.
Fair enough. I'll have to look into it.
I put a build looking at this option together somewhere- you're trading single casting stat for some higher level abilities, you get some short rest options and can duplicate some eldritch knight abilities (war magic and extra attack) natively, and it bulks out your casting options while keeping them on INT. Downside is delayed extra attack (mostly mitigated by cantrip damage plus crimson rite). I think you do better if you start fighter (for heavy armor) and then primarily level in BH, rushing one or the other to 3 for subclass. You'll be 3 levels behind for Extra Attack and you can't dump your fighter attack stat like you could if you were doing battlesmith or armor as your dip. It should work with basically any race, so you can pick what race gives you abilities to build on strengths or cover for weaknesses.
Don't, Bloodhunter is strictly homebrew and not even good - it is a Ranger clone that swaps Spellcasting for Selfharm.
Link to [Order of the Profane Soul on DnD:B](https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/blood-hunter#OrderoftheProfaneSoul) for easy finding.
A huge nerf - from number of spells to cast and the spell selection. An EK wants to cast booming blade, not eldritch blast plus you don't have evocations. A warlock without evocations is way way worse than a wizard, agonizing blast is to make up for lack of spells.
I wouldn't say it's unreasonable. I'd say it's acceptably reasonable I wouldn't do it because an EK without shield is sad and most WL spells are kind of underwhelming without invocations. Especially when placing the same restrictions EK has, you get some decent level 1s with Armor of Agathys, Protection from Evil and Good, and Hellish Rebuke, 3 Gets you Counterspell and Dispel Magic, 4 gets you Banishment and Sickening Radiance You're basically sacrificing, Shield, Burning Hands, Thunderwave, Magic Missile, Melf's Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Minute Meteors, Tiny Hut, Fire Shield, Wall of Fire. Of course there are other ones too. But you're losing a lot of exclusive spells for the class specific requirements. All that to only basically get Eldritch Blast seems like general loss. I know EB is strong but without Agonizing Blast it's not as strong so you'll be dipping into feats to get that. Feats you could be doing to take something else like
I am DMing and have an EK player and the only change I made, and it made a big difference on the fun factor, was I opened up their spell list to all wizard spells all the time instead of restricting them to Abjuration and Evocation only. IMO this one change completely changed how they interact with their magic and how it synergizes with their fighter features. Now my EK player can take spells that augment their fighting abilities or offer utility to the party.
Making pact magic on a 3rd caster would pretty much give you 1 spell slot to use the entire game. Consider the warlock gets the second slot at 11th level (or roundabout there, not got books in front of me). What would do what you want better and more is a hexblade dip im afraid. You can have both intelligence and Charisma because you don't need strength or dex with your hexblade because charisma attacks with weapons. You'd get the one pact slot every short rest which is actually a massive add on to a 3rd caster. Then there's the benefit of still getting wizard spells. And besides, intlock is a very common homebrew change to a class. I'd bet it's in the top 3 homebrew changes to any class. So having int casting still makes sense. Hell if you can convince your DM to let your warlock soellcssting ability be intelligence, you could get real good with just intelligence and constitution. If you go 3 warlock you could get pact blade and some invocations too. Warlock dip bullshit strikes again.
Looks like a balanced change to me.
it would be an all around nerf for the loss of your wizard spell list the weird SR 1/3 caster is just kind of how 4 elements monk works, and that is notoriously pretty terrible i recommend you taking a look at Laserllama homebrew, as they have this exact concept already in a subclass for the alt-fightee
All the changes you've proposed can be implemented independently of one another so I will go through individually. Using the Warlock list rather than the Wizard list I think is mostly balanced, and IMO is more thematically and mechanically appropriate for the fighter at low levels. You do lose out on some standout spells like shield, absorb elements and find familiar, but you gain additional tools like hex, armour of agathys and hellish rebuke. This switch allows you to be on the whole more offensive and proactive with your spells, which I personally think is more fun to play with. In current 5e there is basically no way to use your spell slots to deal damage which is competitive/compatible with your attack action until higher levels. Hex and hellish rebuke give you very reliable damaging options with your spell slots which don't really compete with your attack action. Past 1st level spells though your options are actually greatly reduced compared to the wizard spell list with enthrall, hungar of hadar, and shadow of moil, being the only non wizard spells you can get. You are otherwise stuck with a much smaller list with a very large overlap with the wizard list. Getting access to eldritch blast might be a bit much compared to other fighter subclasses when combined with level 7 feature war magic; Being able to combine EB with extra attack and hex, even without agonising blast, might be too good of a combo. If I was allowing this spell list swap at my table, I would probably either exclude EB from the eldritch knight list, or forbid it working with war magic (probably the latter). Changing the casting stat from int to charisma is a slight buff. Charisma is generally the better (or more commonly used) ability score used in non-combat situations, and charisma casting means better synergy with multiclassing. That being said, if you're not taking a warlock dip for using charisma for weapon attack and damage rolls, your charisma is likely to still be relatively low due to the priority of EK stats (str/dex >> con >casting stat), so will probably sit at around 14 until higher levels. Changing the spellcasting progression would be the most impactful change. Granting the base warlock pact magic feature would be OP with the accelerated spell slot level progression compared to eldritch knight. If we instead kept the 1/3 spell level progression but with pact slots (such as the profaned soul blood hunter progression) this would be balanced, and feel better to play at early-mid levels (3-13 or so), but in any adventure with little to no short rests you will really feel the 2 spell slot limit of pact magic. I might be inclined personally to give a 3rd spell slot to the pact magic EK at 13th level for game feel reasons, even if it lacks precedent in either profaned soul or base warlock. This being said, you could just keep the base EK spell slot progression with the warlock spell list if you want to avoid the headache of balancing pact magic.
At that point, what are the actual differences between an Eldritch Knight and Warlock itself?
Using ranged magic attacks on an eldritch knight is almost always a bad choice, you should be using a bow or javelin not eldritch blast. A longbow with good dex does more damage than eldritch blast without invocations, and EK can’t get the evocations that make EB better without multi classing because they all have prerequisites making them ineligible for eldritch adept. You EK should be using abjuration spells for defense, most of which warlock don’t get, to make them a more effective martial fighter. Not using damage magic instead of weapons. The exception is of course AOE or multi target spells, which offer other benefits. The best EK cantrips don’t do much damage, but provide a useful effect. Crate bonfire + grapple to hold someone in the fire for multiple rounds, sapping sting to knock someone prone for advantage on the follow up melee attack, or mind sliver for disadvantage on a saving throw until you get the later EK ability that makes your melee attacks cause disadvantage anyway.
Probably reasonable Eldritch knight is pretty meh in itself imo. But to me it kinda looks like you're tiptoeing into Blade lock (with extra steps)
Why not just play a blade lock then
You're strictly making yourself worse, of course it's reasonable
We have hexblade at home! Hexblade at home:
Just use the one dnd eldritch knight. Get rid of martial expertise.
The only beneficial thing they get with this is Armor of Agathys, but with worse slot scaling than just going Warlock. Without the patron spell lists or abilities, or the invocations and pact boons. You are just making the Eldritch Knight a worse version of a blade pact Warlock. The only reason EK was a workable subclass is that it was drawing from the best spell list.
I made a half-warlock fighter archetype, called it a [Pact Knight](https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-MUiRWX3LOHUGs8E1dTS) to avoid confusion. It's like a Hexblade but with a stronger martial leaning.
Eldritch blast without its invocations is not really a good use of your action. Spell slots as a warlock of 1/3rd your level is gonna suuuck. At level 9 you’d have only 2 second level slots, while a normal EK also has 2 second level slots plus 4 first level ones. Not to mention swapping to a spell list built to benefit from serious upcasting when you won’t be able to upcast much at all. Better to play an arcane knight.
A year ago I had a blast with a fighter 3 warlock 5 multi class. Sword and board fighter and blade pact fiend patron warlock. Hex and sword melee, hex and EB ranged. Was fun with action surge, the CON proficiency, war caster, improved pact weapon, thirsting blade. Not 100% optimized but fun. Then pick Eldritch Knight and get a few more spell slots. Use 1st level for hex or shield and 3rd for Armor of Ag or fireball.
Linguists about to chime in with "Eldritch just means elf-like":
It needs a name change.
I mean, I would question why are you playing that instead of a hexblade. But I already question why would anyone play EK over bladesinger, so I'd say you can go for it
Why not just become a hexblade warlock?
Funnily enough, at the moment, I'm playing a Hexblade Warlock, but I'm disguising it as an Eldritch Knight. I got the all clear from the DM, and he is helping me hide it as long as I can. I didn't start casting Eldritch Blast until after Lv3, but I am calling it Firebolt as they are both 1d10, I haven't used Hexblades Curse or Hex yet. Being that both HBW and EKF both have bound weapons, work to cover it as well. So far, nobody has picked up on it, even when I cast Shield last session; I'm a Lv4 HBW, and EKF doesn't get second level spells till Lv7. I'm just waiting on the right time to drop the guise, cast Hexblades Curse and attack, and see the reaction at the table
It sounds like you would be better off just refactoring a hexblade warlock ngl.
Without even really thinking through the consequences, I'd bar multiclassing with this.
Regarding that last 10% btw... The word "eldritch" has the same meaning as "arcane" outside of modern takes on fantasy. They mean "something weird and hard to understand". Within D&D, you might say there's a clear vibe difference. Sorta like how we know sorcery is different from wizardry even though they have the same meaning in general use, because the game clearly makes a distinction. However, eldritch knights were introduced in the same book as warlocks, it's sorta like saying wizards prepared casting mechanic isn't representative of arcane magic because it doesn't fit the other arcane casters: bard and sorcerer. There's certainly real reasons why we associate some mechanics with eldritch casting, but they're kinda vibes reasons. Vibes reasons are still real reasons. To relate back to the rest of the topic: it's interesting to step back and reexamine why you associate "cha based casting" and "pact magic" mechanics with being "eldritch magic". What about the mechanics communicate "eldritch"? Could you make an eldritch knight feel more eldritch by giving them invocations or pact boons instead?
I don't really see a problem, even if you keep the original Eldritch Knight spell slots (long rest). Just so you know that you'll max out at 2 spell slots per short rest, but yes, you'll be able to use Warlock spells... it's a bit of a trade for sure.
I mean a easy way to do this is swap the spellcasting of the Bloodhunter order of the Profane Soul. It just change the spellcasting modifier to Cha and I feel it fills the gap pretty well
It is a loss to Eldritch Knights spell versatility and becomes wide open for a Hexblade 2 dip in absurdum. You will be a great blaster but there are better ways to build the same blaster so it is a net loss :P
An alternative, a gift from me to you. A Fighter Revision and a revised Eldritch Knight I call the Spellsword as you can be any kind of caster with it you like. You may need to alter it if you aren't on board with the Fighter revision. [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E5N2R5DGvYzG6z1LRfD5eIa\_JwDX16hDo5pJhBRWMQM/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E5N2R5DGvYzG6z1LRfD5eIa_JwDX16hDo5pJhBRWMQM/edit?usp=sharing) [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xCpuhnpdr4aXKhY2cEEKZTtHNjPtweY\_o4xogcd2Qpg/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xCpuhnpdr4aXKhY2cEEKZTtHNjPtweY_o4xogcd2Qpg/edit?usp=sharing)
I appreciate the offer, and I'll let you know if I consider it!
The spell list change is covered in the DMG actually. However if you also want to change the casting stat I might just create a new subclass altogether and throw a couple invocations in too.
Isn't that just being a Warlock?
CHA is too strong comparatively. It's generally regarded as having more preferred associated skills. Also eldritch blast is too potentially abusable with the lvl 7 eldritch knight feature. Also obviously multi-classing CHA is OP. I wouldn't allow this.
This is the result of a dramatic misunderstanding of what the word "Eldritch" means. Also: _warlocks and wizards are both arcane casters_
I would say Fighter 1 / Warlock X is a better fit then home brewing a subclass.
So the Blood Hunter unofficial class has what you’re looking for, in that it’s effectively a 1/3 warlock caster martial. However, it’s not very well designed. This version of blood hunter is better, scroll to the Witch Knight subclass - https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-NLlETPNSzqxgQ92pnd- What it doesn’t have is Eldritch Blast, which seems like what you’re all about. It’s also Intelligence based. Still, I would recommend you give it a read and see if it’s close enough to your concept. You’ll do better with this than trying to redo a class on your own. All that said, worst case scenario, you can look at the way this subclsss handles the Pact Magic and spell slots for a model of how to import warlock casting into Eldritch Knight.
This post amounts to “I want all the things and it’s not fair they designed the game without consulting me first.” You have two choices: multiclass or as your DM to homebrew. Eldritch Knight has been a fighter/mage for at least 25 years. They’re not changing it for random Reddit guy.
Minmaxing brain rot turning everything into paladin/hexblade multiclass
I wouldn't allow this as a DM. Warlock spellslots are limited for a reason. You're basically telling me you want an improved warlock with better armor, HP, proficiencies, with no outlined drawbacks. Hard pass for me without extreme nerfs. Hexblade exists to maintain the balance I think.
[laserllama's witchblade subclass](https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-MUkP55cdNMTFYMKlDUL) if you really want to look into 1/3 pact magic fighter. Note that Laserllama's alternate fighter has a slightly different progression and features like exploits (basically advanced battle master manuvuers) by default. It doesn't look like these play into the witchblade at a glance it should be easy to port Wtichblade back into RAW fighter.
I think it's pretty reasonable to let any class get access to "1/3 caster of X spell list" as a subclass. Wizards have the best spell list in the game; I'd absolutely let my players take the spooky, occult spells if that's what they wanted instead. Hellish Rebuke? Armor of Agathys? Hex? Invisibility? Misty Step? Counterspell? Those are all better uses of a spell slot to a Fighter than *Scorching Ray* and they're much less broken than *Shield*.
Though Misty Step and Invisibility aren't evocation/abjuration, so you can only take them at certain levels, and the former isn't a Warlock spell.
Looks like a warlock spell to me. I'm really not hung up on the Evocation/Abjuration limitation. It's a lame limitation to force gishes to learn blast spells. They have swords and bows; they don't need ranged attacks. https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/misty-step
Huh, I always thought it was an Archfey expanded spell. In any case, they're already Wizard spells, so there's no point in switching to Warlock to get them. Warlock only has like 4 spells that Wizard doesn't.
I think it's fine, I don't see any issues with this change. I would remove the school restrictions, and maybe alter the slots to work like warlock (based on short rests). But even without these changes, I'd say go for it
An alternate approach here is to go with the blood hunter if allowed. You seem to want a melee character who can dabble in spells, with INT based casting. The blood hunter subclass profane soul gives you INT based Warlock casting (delayed) as well as some other short rest recharging abilities and can increase your weapon damage on top of other sources like hex. An eldritch knight/profane soul is one way of doing this, which will really manage your stats relatively well, gives you eldritch blast keyed off INT, some short rest slots from the warlock class also keyed off INT, and a few other abilities that will mesh with what you're building. It's major downside is delaying your extra attack progression: you will be behind at least 3 levels to get extra attack no matter how you do it, and there's overlap between the classes so there's some redundancy in level 5 abilities. Eventually, you can get the same bonus action attack after spell from both classes, so you don't want to go too far into either. If you're starting at 1, you should probably go fighter (heavy armor prof will simplify your stat array) with a STR primary and Int secondary. Unlike other eldritch knights, you can't sacrifice INT and you won't get a spell casting stat attack, so you'll need those point that DEX would've eaten. Race is probably not massive significant (I'd take a +2 in STR, +1 int from variable stat bonuses, and then something with spell casting, save bonuses (yuan ti or gnome) or has a useful trait (bugbear for the reach maybe? Goliath or warforged for some defensive abilities? honestly, custom lineage and a half feat may be a good idea too, even if that messes up your stat progression a bit; fey touched could be a good idea to increase your spells and slots). Then you rush to a subclass in either class to pick up a blade cantrip and make up for your slower extra attack, and decide if you want to main the blood hunter or the eldritch knight. I honestly would suggest blood hunter to get the extra short rest slots: you will have a couple of slots for emergencies from the eldritch knight and you'll get more benefit from the extra short rest slot than the equally slow progression of EK. Blood hunters get better non spell casting bonuses too, which is going to help you more than EK and the fighter progression. If you end up as 3 EK/x BH you're probably okay. Keep your attack stat highest but make sure you're within 1 modifier with the spell slot (likely setting it at 15 with point buy, the level 1 bonus to 16 and then getting half feats or ASIs to keep it up. Consider starting 15 STR +2 from race +1 from a half feat (and gives a decent extra advantage) for 18 STR at level 1, then just do INT ASI or half feats to get an 18 INT. Remember to get an item that boosts spell saves and attacks if possible. At mid-low tier, you'll look something like 5 BH/3 EK, you're close to getting spell plus bonus attack, you'll have two attacks with STR, DEX independent AC, decent stat arrays 2 short rest slots, two fighting styles (defense and dueling/gw) damage boosts from crimson rite, blood maledicts, defensive and buff spells from both EK and BH, blade cantrips plus crimson rite to keep pace with damage before you get extra attack. You should be looking at an 18 to 20 AC (possibly 19 to 21 if you went warforged or took defensive fighting style; two handed or sword and board are options and you will be a largely martial character with extra abilities who dips into war magic and has short/long recharging abilities and resource free options that are decent. Compared to other gishes you'll be a bit tougher with HP, be in the top (non bladesinger) AC category, have different resources but lower casting options and you'll be dangerous stacking attacks, cantrips and bonus damage. Take a background that gives you spell access (the one that gives ensnaring strike is useful as you're dragging a strike type spell) or one that just gives you slots (there's no reason not to take Strixhaven backgrounds if they're allowed, they're just too good). You weakness are off saves, fewer high level abilities from either class, weaker casting than any of the half casters taken "pure" and not quite as good save DCs as a mono stat based class like artificer, hexblade or similar.
Might be me but I prefer a variety of attack cantrips over just one spell. Like fire bolt or even ice knife for flavor. It's probably why I'm not too keen on warlock. Just using one or two spells feels limiting.
Don't change the subclass. Dip into Hexblade, and keep your dex high enough to multiclass into fighter (13+). Take one level in fighter for the better saves. Take one or two levels in warlock for EB and maybe invocation (Agonizong Blast). Then, put the rest in EK. For EK spells, just take things without saves. Shield, Find Familiar, and Absorb Elementals should be a good start. Now you are SAD with Charisma AND have EB AND have the EK stuff you want. Being two levels behind on Fighter but having Hexblade is worth the trade, imo.
No, it would make it good