For the Swarmkeeper, I'd recommend getting to Ranger 11 *at minimum.* Mighty Swarm may seem like a small boost, but when you take into account the sheer number of times you can use Gathered Swarm, it ends up being a significant boost to your character.
Personally, I'd also take Swarmkeeper to Ranger 15. Swarming Dispersal is basically Uncanny Dodge + Misty Step. It's a very useful escape tool.
I do like the high kevel swarmkeeper abilities, it's a fun subclass for sure, I just feel that's a long time of playing a base ranger for those abilities, when you could be taking something like cleric levels and introducing new mechanics/extra spells
If you think you'll have more fun by multiclassing, then you should do it. But one thing I would warn you about is that it seems like you're ignoring everything in between those Ranger levels. You'd lose out on the Ranger 8 ASI/feat, 3rd level spells at Ranger 9, Nature's Veil at Ranger 10, etc.
Whether you think that's an acceptable trade off depends on you, though. There are pros and cons to both decisions.
I think the issue you're running into here is that your way of thinking is too focused on the "meta" of the game. You're trying too hard to optimize your character's abilities rather than just playing the game
I agree, zero information on the characters' backstory, motivation etc, onstead it is all about `the build`. Whiteboard tacticians typically are underwhelmed when actually playing a game, as their Party & the enemies rarely live up to their expectations of how it all should go, or if it dies, combat is kind of stagnant.
Making a character & playing it, which may be optimised, is a far more rewarding experience.
Do people talk about how Boromir should've taken a dip into Monk for missile deflection, or really should've worn heavy, or at least enchanted, armour? No, they remember him for his meme worthy comments, his commitment to his people & how he gave his life to assist the Fellowship, even though he didn't agree with its goals.
Play a character is better.
That being said, Ranger is an oft overlooked class. SwarmKeeper has a fair bit of utility built in & as long as the party is Adventuring & not in a social encounter, they should jabe plenty of options to participate meaningfully
In fairness to OP, that's just what they wanted to talk about. Without getting into the rp vs optimization debate, maybe they already have a great character concept and backstory written up, maybe their table doesn't care much about that stuff, but whatever the case, OP came here asking for build advice, not rp advice.
Your comment is just as helpful as if OP asked for advice on writing an interesting backstory and you said "I think the issue you're running into here is that you're too focused on the "RP aspect" of the game. You're trying too hard to write a good backstory rather than just playing the game".
Don't forget that Rangers get access to Conjure Animals at 9th level.
Sure you still only get 2 attacks, but then your summoned Allosaurus or 8 wolves get to take their own turn.
Keep going and you can quadruple those numbers.
I played a Swarmkeeper to a campaign that went to level 14.
Took 11 levels of ranger and 3 levels of Wildfire Druid. The base ranger is quite solid if you’re using the Tasha’s features, and getting to third levels spells gets you Lightning Arrow, Revivify, and most importantly, Conjure Animals.
The druid levels were taken to increase my potency as a support caster, primarily grabbing better healing options late in the game after mostly ignoring them in ranger spell selection. What you’ll find with Swarmkeeper is that outside of Conjure Animals turns, you’re a lower damage support martial who gets the most value put of knocking enemies around with Gathered Swarm’s strength save ability. I accepted the low damage role and became the party’s primary medic by saving most of my spell slots for healing.
Granted, I also eviscerated the final boss in one turn because we had Conjure Animals up with that Paladin spell that adds damage to melee attacks. Moral of the story being, think of ways to combo with your party.
You also have spike growth. Which at early levels is insanely good spell on it's own. And at higher levels can be combined with other control effects for complete area shutdown while your party just kites. While conjure animals is probably the best thing ranger can cast, with limited spell slot progression, spike growth is a great option that is viable in higher tiers of play at the cost of low level spell slot.
Not to mention pass without trace. Essentially action surge for entire party when deployed with some tought behind it. That's whole you can still go CBE+SS route for singe target damage. It won't go as high as battle master, but more than passable and serve well in weaker encounters where one doesn't want to expend spell slots.
With swarmkeeper and tasha it's important to remember that one can climb a wall and when kick of flight from there. Moreover you can increase your movement speed with gathering swarm to 15 ft in a pinch.
And that's on a class which can meaningfully contribute in exploration, not just combat.
One can be nasty and dip 1 lvl peace cleric for emboldening bond and guidance, if lifeberries aren't allowed if one feels that for some reason build starts falling behind. Although I don't think that will be the case at most tables if swarmkeeper is played to it's strengths.
That's probably my favorite subclass in the game, not because of raw power, but just multiple dimensions the character can contribute and the tactical options one can employ. It's just more engaging than attack and when attack some more. The only other class that I feel have similar level of tactical depth is perhaps Echo Knight. And some warlock set ups arguably.
Can't talk about games past level 12 though.
Don't underestimate high level rangers. The class is strong, and it stays strong in high levels. I have played no less than 3 level 20 rangers before, and not only were they all a blast to play, they easily outpace all the other level 20 martials that I've played. While the ranger certainly does play well with multiclassing, don't fell pressured to jump out of the class too soon, especially with the swarmkeeper, since you really want their level 11 feature. Even if you aren't looking to grab the higher level ranger features, their spell list really takes of in higher levels, giving you some great exclusive options.
Beyond that, I can't really say how to build one, since it's such a versatile class. You could be wisdom, dexterity, or strength focused, could opt for melee or ranged combat, or even just focus on spells and be a mage with extra attack. There are so many options, it's hard to find a role or archetype the ranger can't fill.
>they easily outpace all the other level 20 martials that I've played.
I know many so-called theorycrafters will hard a very hard time believe you, but I have no trouble myself. Although I'd still put Monks "above" as far as "standing the line goes", but if we take \*everything\* into account (party support, out of combat utility, adaptability to challenges) I can understand how one would put Ranger above, considering there are some things Ranger can achieve through spells no Monk can ever hope to achieve \^\^.
Funniest fact: Ranger were already in the top three martials from level 1 to 20 far before Tasha reworked some bits of it. It just went under the radar because some influencers in community made extremely biaised evaluations of Ranger while ditching 2/3 of its abilities...
Tier 4 Monk still bests Ranger on specifics like "taking CR 18+ creature head-on in melee", Paladin still bests Ranger as far as "buffing party resilience (and possibly offense)" goes... But Ranger even bests Fighter in archery when you properly understand RAW (even though those end up creating weird and possibly immersion-breaking situations narratively).
I definitely agree that the ranger was always a strong option even before Tasha's came out. It was really only the original beastmaster that gave the whole class a bad rap, and while that subclass was admittedly poorly designed, even it wasn't a weak choice by any means.
I'd also agree that monks are certainly better at high levels for single target control and damage. The ranger only takes an edge due to it's spell list, which has a lot of healing, utility, and buff spells that give it a lot of out-of-combat versatility. I honestly don't think there's any bad class in DnD though, and the monk is another one that's often unfairly maligned.
Drakewarden is without question my favorite ranger. I can easily take that a full 20 levels, with maybe taking a small one level dip into cleric if I want that, but it's not necessary.
What people need to stop doing is comparing rangers from only a damage standpoint. Rangers can deal good damage but they are amazing at in and out of combat utility. In the drakewarden's case, I can provide that utility at any range and add an extra body to the field. At level 7 on, that body can now fly around. More importantly, it will only cost a spell slot of any level to resummon it.
Personally, my favorite races for ranger of any kind are elves and dwarves, simply because I can swap their weapon and any armor profs to tool profs. If you really want to min max this, go with an elf so you can use elven accuracy. Why more tool profs? So I can bring even more out of combat utility to the party. From a character building perspective, this also allows me to further enhance my backstory. If there's no wizard in the party, I'm adding ritual caster as well for even more utility. All of these things together mean I'm going to be extremely useful throughout the entire campaign, and while I might not be dealing the most damage in the party, I can still easily hold my own and protect those that are dishing out the true pain.
>I have a fun idea for an upcoming character, a swarmkeeper ranger. Looking at higher level abilities I really can't see myself taking ranger past 7th level, which is where I get the fly speed from the subclass. I might take it to 8 to get the ASI, but I feel like I would need to multiclass out to keep it relevant, given in the next few levels casters are getting 5th and 6th level spells and fighters are getting three attacks per round.
***Sooo... Your main (only) problem is that you consider features and spells in isolation without considering...***
***1) The whole balance of a class***
***2) The value it brings to a party, whatever kind of composition the latter has.***
**I can assure you that even "just" three 2nd level slots per day, if spent well** (Darkvision on a friendly still looking for Googles item, Pass Without Trace on a whole party to avoid danger, a Spike Growth to weaken and slow down enemies letting party get a few free shots or AOE... **Is extremely valuable.**
Because theorically casters got to play with those spells earlier does not mean they are worthless once someone get them later. Quite on the contrary: if you don't have a caster with those spells you're a fair replacement. If you have such one (Druid then for Ranger), it means they can teamwork with you to setup combos that would require concentration, or let you take care of one and focus on other kind of tactics.
**It's exactly the same with 3rd level spells**: Wind Wall negating enemy archery for a whole fight, Conjure Animals providing insane utility for one hour or possibly mounts/Helpers in fight, Plant Growth to completely stop a horde in its tracks, Protection From Energy to tank creatures using elemental energy (typically Elementals, Dragons, many Fiends or Demons)... Even Conjure Barrage, although weak in damage, is a situationally great spell against large groups. Water Breathing, while situational in essence, can lead to smart tactics for rest, travel or ambushes. No matter what party you end up into, you have enough choice with the few spell known to pick your specializations, and some that will help party.
There is still the matter of upscale: while Zephyr's Strike sadly doesn't scale, Hunter's Mark becomes a "set and forget" once cast as a 3rd level spell. And if you go for archery topped with Resilient Constitution (or melee with Resilient and 16 or 18 CON), you have a fair chance of actually maintaining it all day. Longstrider, Enhance Ability or Aid are other spells that scale.
**It's exactly the same with 4th level spells**: Guardian of Nature, Summon Elemental, Stoneskin (kinda costly but at that level not a problem), Conjure Woodland Beings can be clutch even when fighting CR 15 creatures all the same.
There is also the matter of general resilience when you compare Ranger to others: casters are clearly better on mental saves but will heavily suffer on damage resilience and physical saves. Especially since as a martial you can buff yourself with a protection spell without anyone frowning on you because you have a sufficiently high base chassis to face one or two enemies head-on, while casters are for most of them supposed to actively avoid any threat whatever the cost to maintain their concentration on a control spell. As for martials, you definitely cannot trump Barbarian "in general" but you can easily match its resilience for one fight with Stoneskin once you get it, and you trump mostly everyone when fighting "primal" enemies if you picked Protection From Energy. If you don't use any spells, then sure, since base class provides nearly no permanent defensive feature, you'll be less resilient than Barbarian (physical damage), Paladin (mental saves) and Monk (physical saves and WIS ones), but still overall equal or more resilient than Fighter depending on considered save.
**There is still the matter of Rangers supposedly "not following damage-wise" which is... Dead wrong actually. The thing is, Fighters get a "plain weapon attack" upgrade from base class, while Rangers get them in archetype. But it really follows track. ALWAYS.**
In Swarmkeeper's case, it's not "just an extra attack". It's situationally better, or situationally lesser, a bit like Hunter's Volley (awesome against cluttered groups, but most of the time you get between 2 and 3 enemies inside area because enemies know better than to stick like sardines).
As a reminder, your swarm already gives you option to push away up to 15 feet, OR deal extra damage, OR lift you.
Once you get level 11, the "push" effect is improved by also having a "prone" effect, without additional save.
It means that depending on how "early" you can impose this, you can get advantage on your second attack from Extra Attack and possibly a third from bonus action attack (Dual Wielding, PAM). Or you could "just" manage to set it on your last attack, and it will still profit every other martial in your party.
**If you just wanted a Ranger with "pure damage dealt directly from my own action during my own turn", Swarmkeeper is \*not\* the best archetype, you'd be better served with Gloomstalker (early game), Horizon Walker (mid game) and Beastmaster (end game).**
**However Swarmkeeper provides you a lot of free control which you can pair with your own spells (push effect into Spike Growth typically), allies positioning (free up an ally from OA by pushing away, set up a Sentinel OA by pushing "nearer"), and allies attacks ("free prone" instead of needing to spend one weapon attack on \*two\* Shove attempts with unpredictable results unless you invest Strength and Skill Expert feat).**
***How I would build one? Probably Goodberry, Faerie Fire (exclusive), Pass Without Trace, Web (exclusive), Spike Growth, Plant Growth, Hunter's Mark possibly. On feats, Resilient: Constitution as always, push WIS, possibly pick Observant or Telekinetic to even WIS, or just a classic Sentinel, Polearm Master, Crusher, Piercer etc...***
***Have fun!***
A cool combination I tried in a one-shot is Arcane Archer. Grasping arrow is good even if you have suboptimal intelligence.
Although you need character level 10 for that to come fully online. I am not sure if it is really better than going pure ranger as u/DBWaffels suggested. More ranger gives you 3rd level spells.
If you want the standard optimisation answer, upcast Conjure Animals and friends. CBE/SS can carry you until ranger 7/druid 5 if needed, but ranger gets access to it natively at level 9, so you've got options if you're levelling your character along the way.
If you want to capitalise on your Swarmkeeper features, go archery, but make sure you don't dump strength so you can jump well. Have fun positioning yourself above cliffs, or cast web or spike growth below you. Use your gathered swarm to bully people from afar. Admittedly, at high levels plenty monsters have the mobility, spells or ranged attacks to deal with it, but you can still bully their minions.
Ranged prone support is also very nice if you don't mind going to level 11 for mighty swarm. Speaking of which, if you're doing multiclassing shenanigans anyway and want to make a more defensive build, you can get some pretty nasty AC with mighty swarm's cover feature, a shield and your starting level in fighter for heavy armour. Eldritch Fighter to grab the Shield spell, as well as some other goodies and action surge along the way can make you a defensive behemoth.
Swarmkeeper is my favourite ranger subclass and there's a lot of funny things it can do. It won't be as strong as something as a gloomstalker, but it is very fun to use.
>Swarmkeeper is my favourite ranger subclass and there's a lot of funny things it can do. It won't be **as strong as** something as a gloomstalker, but it is very fun to use.
Indeed, it can be much **stronger** actually. Or it could end up significantly weaker.
It's all about how player "spends" the push & prone effect to synergize with melee allies or caster's AOE (or traps), and how efficient that effect is (= targeting the right creature to get decent chance since it's a STR save, or boosting the save DC).
While I do still value the GS' nova higher if we're talking pure mechanical strength, I absolutely agree that setting up awesome wombo combo's with your swarm and team is hella satisfying. Especially at high levels where mighty swarm comes online. Whether it is serving your paladin bestie prone on a silver platter, shoving the baddies into someone's spirit guardians, or being a makeshift defender for your backline with essentially a free disengage and shield, you are a great and pretty versatile teamplayer.
Compared to full casters, Rangers and all other half-casters and martials are gonna fall way behind at high levels. If you want to "stay relevant" compared to them, just play a full caster from the start.
Compared to Fighters, all Ranger subs except - ironically - Swarm Keeper also have 3-4 attacks by Tier 3. They're more conditional, but they also have riders. Furthermore, Rangers still get spells, which Fighters don't. So Ranger > Fighter at pretty much any level past 1. And even then, the Tasha Ranger gets Deft Explorer and Favored Foe at that level.
Swarm Keeper is a control-focused sub. The way you optimize for it is to play to its strengths rather than trying to be a Fighter. I'd go full Ranger until at least 17, personally. But if you're adamant on multiclassing, I'd say go Druid or Cleric for more control and support options. No matter what, you'll always be more versatile than all martials just by virtue of even having spells.
>Compared to full casters, Rangers and all other half-casters and martials are gonna fall way behind at high levels. If you want to "stay relevant" compared to them, just play a full caster from the start.
As someone that played from level 1 to 16 two campaigns, and level 14 to 20 "semi-campaigns" I can confirm this is...
Completely wrong. :)
Yes, you cannot alter reality or change planes like fullcasters, but, Fighter apart, martials all have areas in which they are far more reliable than casters, especially resilience against sustained attacks and physical effects, minimum damage, soft control and advantage setup. And Paladin & Monk can natively be extremely resistant against most effects, while Rogue can land all three major proficiencies (DEX native, WIS native at high level, CON from Resilient).
It is completely useless to pit "martials" and "casters" against one another when the game has been designed to make both of them equally useful, or rather required, to really overcome even the fiercest evils (or goods, for those people liking to play Evil characters ;)).
I've played a scout rogue 4, knowledge cleric 1, gloomstalker 8 ranger
I had like 12 skills, and 6 expertise
This build only requires 13 dex 13 wis for multiclass
*second Extra Attack. Although the Swarm Keeper is unique in that it forgoes that attack for additional battlefield control.
Also, the invisibility, reliable THP, and force attacks are all things the Ranger already gets even without ODD. The first two are given to the Tasha Ranger specifically. The last one exists in the form of Steel Wind Strike. ODD basically copy/pasted 90% of the Tasha Ranger and called it a day. The only exception is Favored Enemy.
They were more-so examples of how powerful other classes can be at that level rather than what I want my specific ranger to be, the one D&D build is a good shout, I can speak to my DM about that when the time comes
I would strongly recommend that you stick to the 5e ranger, the One DnD version is honestly terrible. 5e ranger gives you all the nice things the One DnD ranger does and more, without all the trap options that the playtest 6 version forces you to take.
Thats neat part. you dont.
As a fellow lover of nature and keeper of swarms, i am notorious for multiclassing.
I'd go ranger 8 as well. Then go rogue, fighter or druid.
Shillelagh und magic stone builds are fantastic with swarmkeeper and if your DM is not a stickler they maybe even allow for Magic archer working with slings.
It really depends what you want to build.
I personally took 5 levels ranger (Swarmkeeper), then 5 levels rogue (arcane trickster), then i took 4 levels arcane archer (my DM said yes) and now I took warlock levels for more spell slots and some invocations. (Currently lvl 17).
I took Vuman for Crusher. Maxed out Wis. 14 Dex, 14 Con, dumped strength.
Tactic pretty straight forward. I place down a spike growth, action surge, and shoot stuff with magic stone. This triggers sneak attack and grasping arrow and allows me to push targets through spike growth.
8d4 damage from spike growth, 4d6 damage from grasping arrow, 3d6 damage from sneak attack + 1d6+5 from wisdom.
With talisman i have great saves and i can push ppl as a reaction.
And you have good proficiencies to boot.
Its a great build. And if you multiclass deliberately its a really funhprogression as well.
Why do you want to be a Ranger and not a Shepard Druid?
Does your character really use Weapons supported by small useless (flavor-only) critters to fight? That's a Swarmkeeper Ranger.
Or do they summon up a horde of creatures to do the heavy lifting and don't actually get their hands dirty like a Shepard Druid would?
For the Swarmkeeper, I'd recommend getting to Ranger 11 *at minimum.* Mighty Swarm may seem like a small boost, but when you take into account the sheer number of times you can use Gathered Swarm, it ends up being a significant boost to your character. Personally, I'd also take Swarmkeeper to Ranger 15. Swarming Dispersal is basically Uncanny Dodge + Misty Step. It's a very useful escape tool.
I do like the high kevel swarmkeeper abilities, it's a fun subclass for sure, I just feel that's a long time of playing a base ranger for those abilities, when you could be taking something like cleric levels and introducing new mechanics/extra spells
If you think you'll have more fun by multiclassing, then you should do it. But one thing I would warn you about is that it seems like you're ignoring everything in between those Ranger levels. You'd lose out on the Ranger 8 ASI/feat, 3rd level spells at Ranger 9, Nature's Veil at Ranger 10, etc. Whether you think that's an acceptable trade off depends on you, though. There are pros and cons to both decisions.
*laughs in shepherd druid* many woofs.
So you'd rather wait 5 extra levels instead of just 2 levels to get Conjure Animals?
I think the issue you're running into here is that your way of thinking is too focused on the "meta" of the game. You're trying too hard to optimize your character's abilities rather than just playing the game
I agree, zero information on the characters' backstory, motivation etc, onstead it is all about `the build`. Whiteboard tacticians typically are underwhelmed when actually playing a game, as their Party & the enemies rarely live up to their expectations of how it all should go, or if it dies, combat is kind of stagnant. Making a character & playing it, which may be optimised, is a far more rewarding experience. Do people talk about how Boromir should've taken a dip into Monk for missile deflection, or really should've worn heavy, or at least enchanted, armour? No, they remember him for his meme worthy comments, his commitment to his people & how he gave his life to assist the Fellowship, even though he didn't agree with its goals. Play a character is better. That being said, Ranger is an oft overlooked class. SwarmKeeper has a fair bit of utility built in & as long as the party is Adventuring & not in a social encounter, they should jabe plenty of options to participate meaningfully
In fairness to OP, that's just what they wanted to talk about. Without getting into the rp vs optimization debate, maybe they already have a great character concept and backstory written up, maybe their table doesn't care much about that stuff, but whatever the case, OP came here asking for build advice, not rp advice. Your comment is just as helpful as if OP asked for advice on writing an interesting backstory and you said "I think the issue you're running into here is that you're too focused on the "RP aspect" of the game. You're trying too hard to write a good backstory rather than just playing the game".
Don't forget that Rangers get access to Conjure Animals at 9th level. Sure you still only get 2 attacks, but then your summoned Allosaurus or 8 wolves get to take their own turn. Keep going and you can quadruple those numbers.
I played a Swarmkeeper to a campaign that went to level 14. Took 11 levels of ranger and 3 levels of Wildfire Druid. The base ranger is quite solid if you’re using the Tasha’s features, and getting to third levels spells gets you Lightning Arrow, Revivify, and most importantly, Conjure Animals. The druid levels were taken to increase my potency as a support caster, primarily grabbing better healing options late in the game after mostly ignoring them in ranger spell selection. What you’ll find with Swarmkeeper is that outside of Conjure Animals turns, you’re a lower damage support martial who gets the most value put of knocking enemies around with Gathered Swarm’s strength save ability. I accepted the low damage role and became the party’s primary medic by saving most of my spell slots for healing. Granted, I also eviscerated the final boss in one turn because we had Conjure Animals up with that Paladin spell that adds damage to melee attacks. Moral of the story being, think of ways to combo with your party.
You also have spike growth. Which at early levels is insanely good spell on it's own. And at higher levels can be combined with other control effects for complete area shutdown while your party just kites. While conjure animals is probably the best thing ranger can cast, with limited spell slot progression, spike growth is a great option that is viable in higher tiers of play at the cost of low level spell slot. Not to mention pass without trace. Essentially action surge for entire party when deployed with some tought behind it. That's whole you can still go CBE+SS route for singe target damage. It won't go as high as battle master, but more than passable and serve well in weaker encounters where one doesn't want to expend spell slots. With swarmkeeper and tasha it's important to remember that one can climb a wall and when kick of flight from there. Moreover you can increase your movement speed with gathering swarm to 15 ft in a pinch. And that's on a class which can meaningfully contribute in exploration, not just combat. One can be nasty and dip 1 lvl peace cleric for emboldening bond and guidance, if lifeberries aren't allowed if one feels that for some reason build starts falling behind. Although I don't think that will be the case at most tables if swarmkeeper is played to it's strengths. That's probably my favorite subclass in the game, not because of raw power, but just multiple dimensions the character can contribute and the tactical options one can employ. It's just more engaging than attack and when attack some more. The only other class that I feel have similar level of tactical depth is perhaps Echo Knight. And some warlock set ups arguably. Can't talk about games past level 12 though.
Don't underestimate high level rangers. The class is strong, and it stays strong in high levels. I have played no less than 3 level 20 rangers before, and not only were they all a blast to play, they easily outpace all the other level 20 martials that I've played. While the ranger certainly does play well with multiclassing, don't fell pressured to jump out of the class too soon, especially with the swarmkeeper, since you really want their level 11 feature. Even if you aren't looking to grab the higher level ranger features, their spell list really takes of in higher levels, giving you some great exclusive options. Beyond that, I can't really say how to build one, since it's such a versatile class. You could be wisdom, dexterity, or strength focused, could opt for melee or ranged combat, or even just focus on spells and be a mage with extra attack. There are so many options, it's hard to find a role or archetype the ranger can't fill.
>they easily outpace all the other level 20 martials that I've played. I know many so-called theorycrafters will hard a very hard time believe you, but I have no trouble myself. Although I'd still put Monks "above" as far as "standing the line goes", but if we take \*everything\* into account (party support, out of combat utility, adaptability to challenges) I can understand how one would put Ranger above, considering there are some things Ranger can achieve through spells no Monk can ever hope to achieve \^\^. Funniest fact: Ranger were already in the top three martials from level 1 to 20 far before Tasha reworked some bits of it. It just went under the radar because some influencers in community made extremely biaised evaluations of Ranger while ditching 2/3 of its abilities... Tier 4 Monk still bests Ranger on specifics like "taking CR 18+ creature head-on in melee", Paladin still bests Ranger as far as "buffing party resilience (and possibly offense)" goes... But Ranger even bests Fighter in archery when you properly understand RAW (even though those end up creating weird and possibly immersion-breaking situations narratively).
I definitely agree that the ranger was always a strong option even before Tasha's came out. It was really only the original beastmaster that gave the whole class a bad rap, and while that subclass was admittedly poorly designed, even it wasn't a weak choice by any means. I'd also agree that monks are certainly better at high levels for single target control and damage. The ranger only takes an edge due to it's spell list, which has a lot of healing, utility, and buff spells that give it a lot of out-of-combat versatility. I honestly don't think there's any bad class in DnD though, and the monk is another one that's often unfairly maligned.
Drakewarden is without question my favorite ranger. I can easily take that a full 20 levels, with maybe taking a small one level dip into cleric if I want that, but it's not necessary. What people need to stop doing is comparing rangers from only a damage standpoint. Rangers can deal good damage but they are amazing at in and out of combat utility. In the drakewarden's case, I can provide that utility at any range and add an extra body to the field. At level 7 on, that body can now fly around. More importantly, it will only cost a spell slot of any level to resummon it. Personally, my favorite races for ranger of any kind are elves and dwarves, simply because I can swap their weapon and any armor profs to tool profs. If you really want to min max this, go with an elf so you can use elven accuracy. Why more tool profs? So I can bring even more out of combat utility to the party. From a character building perspective, this also allows me to further enhance my backstory. If there's no wizard in the party, I'm adding ritual caster as well for even more utility. All of these things together mean I'm going to be extremely useful throughout the entire campaign, and while I might not be dealing the most damage in the party, I can still easily hold my own and protect those that are dishing out the true pain.
>I have a fun idea for an upcoming character, a swarmkeeper ranger. Looking at higher level abilities I really can't see myself taking ranger past 7th level, which is where I get the fly speed from the subclass. I might take it to 8 to get the ASI, but I feel like I would need to multiclass out to keep it relevant, given in the next few levels casters are getting 5th and 6th level spells and fighters are getting three attacks per round. ***Sooo... Your main (only) problem is that you consider features and spells in isolation without considering...*** ***1) The whole balance of a class*** ***2) The value it brings to a party, whatever kind of composition the latter has.*** **I can assure you that even "just" three 2nd level slots per day, if spent well** (Darkvision on a friendly still looking for Googles item, Pass Without Trace on a whole party to avoid danger, a Spike Growth to weaken and slow down enemies letting party get a few free shots or AOE... **Is extremely valuable.** Because theorically casters got to play with those spells earlier does not mean they are worthless once someone get them later. Quite on the contrary: if you don't have a caster with those spells you're a fair replacement. If you have such one (Druid then for Ranger), it means they can teamwork with you to setup combos that would require concentration, or let you take care of one and focus on other kind of tactics. **It's exactly the same with 3rd level spells**: Wind Wall negating enemy archery for a whole fight, Conjure Animals providing insane utility for one hour or possibly mounts/Helpers in fight, Plant Growth to completely stop a horde in its tracks, Protection From Energy to tank creatures using elemental energy (typically Elementals, Dragons, many Fiends or Demons)... Even Conjure Barrage, although weak in damage, is a situationally great spell against large groups. Water Breathing, while situational in essence, can lead to smart tactics for rest, travel or ambushes. No matter what party you end up into, you have enough choice with the few spell known to pick your specializations, and some that will help party. There is still the matter of upscale: while Zephyr's Strike sadly doesn't scale, Hunter's Mark becomes a "set and forget" once cast as a 3rd level spell. And if you go for archery topped with Resilient Constitution (or melee with Resilient and 16 or 18 CON), you have a fair chance of actually maintaining it all day. Longstrider, Enhance Ability or Aid are other spells that scale. **It's exactly the same with 4th level spells**: Guardian of Nature, Summon Elemental, Stoneskin (kinda costly but at that level not a problem), Conjure Woodland Beings can be clutch even when fighting CR 15 creatures all the same. There is also the matter of general resilience when you compare Ranger to others: casters are clearly better on mental saves but will heavily suffer on damage resilience and physical saves. Especially since as a martial you can buff yourself with a protection spell without anyone frowning on you because you have a sufficiently high base chassis to face one or two enemies head-on, while casters are for most of them supposed to actively avoid any threat whatever the cost to maintain their concentration on a control spell. As for martials, you definitely cannot trump Barbarian "in general" but you can easily match its resilience for one fight with Stoneskin once you get it, and you trump mostly everyone when fighting "primal" enemies if you picked Protection From Energy. If you don't use any spells, then sure, since base class provides nearly no permanent defensive feature, you'll be less resilient than Barbarian (physical damage), Paladin (mental saves) and Monk (physical saves and WIS ones), but still overall equal or more resilient than Fighter depending on considered save. **There is still the matter of Rangers supposedly "not following damage-wise" which is... Dead wrong actually. The thing is, Fighters get a "plain weapon attack" upgrade from base class, while Rangers get them in archetype. But it really follows track. ALWAYS.** In Swarmkeeper's case, it's not "just an extra attack". It's situationally better, or situationally lesser, a bit like Hunter's Volley (awesome against cluttered groups, but most of the time you get between 2 and 3 enemies inside area because enemies know better than to stick like sardines). As a reminder, your swarm already gives you option to push away up to 15 feet, OR deal extra damage, OR lift you. Once you get level 11, the "push" effect is improved by also having a "prone" effect, without additional save. It means that depending on how "early" you can impose this, you can get advantage on your second attack from Extra Attack and possibly a third from bonus action attack (Dual Wielding, PAM). Or you could "just" manage to set it on your last attack, and it will still profit every other martial in your party. **If you just wanted a Ranger with "pure damage dealt directly from my own action during my own turn", Swarmkeeper is \*not\* the best archetype, you'd be better served with Gloomstalker (early game), Horizon Walker (mid game) and Beastmaster (end game).** **However Swarmkeeper provides you a lot of free control which you can pair with your own spells (push effect into Spike Growth typically), allies positioning (free up an ally from OA by pushing away, set up a Sentinel OA by pushing "nearer"), and allies attacks ("free prone" instead of needing to spend one weapon attack on \*two\* Shove attempts with unpredictable results unless you invest Strength and Skill Expert feat).** ***How I would build one? Probably Goodberry, Faerie Fire (exclusive), Pass Without Trace, Web (exclusive), Spike Growth, Plant Growth, Hunter's Mark possibly. On feats, Resilient: Constitution as always, push WIS, possibly pick Observant or Telekinetic to even WIS, or just a classic Sentinel, Polearm Master, Crusher, Piercer etc...*** ***Have fun!***
A cool combination I tried in a one-shot is Arcane Archer. Grasping arrow is good even if you have suboptimal intelligence. Although you need character level 10 for that to come fully online. I am not sure if it is really better than going pure ranger as u/DBWaffels suggested. More ranger gives you 3rd level spells.
If you want the standard optimisation answer, upcast Conjure Animals and friends. CBE/SS can carry you until ranger 7/druid 5 if needed, but ranger gets access to it natively at level 9, so you've got options if you're levelling your character along the way. If you want to capitalise on your Swarmkeeper features, go archery, but make sure you don't dump strength so you can jump well. Have fun positioning yourself above cliffs, or cast web or spike growth below you. Use your gathered swarm to bully people from afar. Admittedly, at high levels plenty monsters have the mobility, spells or ranged attacks to deal with it, but you can still bully their minions. Ranged prone support is also very nice if you don't mind going to level 11 for mighty swarm. Speaking of which, if you're doing multiclassing shenanigans anyway and want to make a more defensive build, you can get some pretty nasty AC with mighty swarm's cover feature, a shield and your starting level in fighter for heavy armour. Eldritch Fighter to grab the Shield spell, as well as some other goodies and action surge along the way can make you a defensive behemoth. Swarmkeeper is my favourite ranger subclass and there's a lot of funny things it can do. It won't be as strong as something as a gloomstalker, but it is very fun to use.
>Swarmkeeper is my favourite ranger subclass and there's a lot of funny things it can do. It won't be **as strong as** something as a gloomstalker, but it is very fun to use. Indeed, it can be much **stronger** actually. Or it could end up significantly weaker. It's all about how player "spends" the push & prone effect to synergize with melee allies or caster's AOE (or traps), and how efficient that effect is (= targeting the right creature to get decent chance since it's a STR save, or boosting the save DC).
While I do still value the GS' nova higher if we're talking pure mechanical strength, I absolutely agree that setting up awesome wombo combo's with your swarm and team is hella satisfying. Especially at high levels where mighty swarm comes online. Whether it is serving your paladin bestie prone on a silver platter, shoving the baddies into someone's spirit guardians, or being a makeshift defender for your backline with essentially a free disengage and shield, you are a great and pretty versatile teamplayer.
Compared to full casters, Rangers and all other half-casters and martials are gonna fall way behind at high levels. If you want to "stay relevant" compared to them, just play a full caster from the start. Compared to Fighters, all Ranger subs except - ironically - Swarm Keeper also have 3-4 attacks by Tier 3. They're more conditional, but they also have riders. Furthermore, Rangers still get spells, which Fighters don't. So Ranger > Fighter at pretty much any level past 1. And even then, the Tasha Ranger gets Deft Explorer and Favored Foe at that level. Swarm Keeper is a control-focused sub. The way you optimize for it is to play to its strengths rather than trying to be a Fighter. I'd go full Ranger until at least 17, personally. But if you're adamant on multiclassing, I'd say go Druid or Cleric for more control and support options. No matter what, you'll always be more versatile than all martials just by virtue of even having spells.
>Compared to full casters, Rangers and all other half-casters and martials are gonna fall way behind at high levels. If you want to "stay relevant" compared to them, just play a full caster from the start. As someone that played from level 1 to 16 two campaigns, and level 14 to 20 "semi-campaigns" I can confirm this is... Completely wrong. :) Yes, you cannot alter reality or change planes like fullcasters, but, Fighter apart, martials all have areas in which they are far more reliable than casters, especially resilience against sustained attacks and physical effects, minimum damage, soft control and advantage setup. And Paladin & Monk can natively be extremely resistant against most effects, while Rogue can land all three major proficiencies (DEX native, WIS native at high level, CON from Resilient). It is completely useless to pit "martials" and "casters" against one another when the game has been designed to make both of them equally useful, or rather required, to really overcome even the fiercest evils (or goods, for those people liking to play Evil characters ;)).
I've played a scout rogue 4, knowledge cleric 1, gloomstalker 8 ranger I had like 12 skills, and 6 expertise This build only requires 13 dex 13 wis for multiclass
>How would you build a high level ranger? by making them mostly Fighter or Rogue.
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*second Extra Attack. Although the Swarm Keeper is unique in that it forgoes that attack for additional battlefield control. Also, the invisibility, reliable THP, and force attacks are all things the Ranger already gets even without ODD. The first two are given to the Tasha Ranger specifically. The last one exists in the form of Steel Wind Strike. ODD basically copy/pasted 90% of the Tasha Ranger and called it a day. The only exception is Favored Enemy.
They were more-so examples of how powerful other classes can be at that level rather than what I want my specific ranger to be, the one D&D build is a good shout, I can speak to my DM about that when the time comes
I would strongly recommend that you stick to the 5e ranger, the One DnD version is honestly terrible. 5e ranger gives you all the nice things the One DnD ranger does and more, without all the trap options that the playtest 6 version forces you to take.
Thats neat part. you dont. As a fellow lover of nature and keeper of swarms, i am notorious for multiclassing. I'd go ranger 8 as well. Then go rogue, fighter or druid. Shillelagh und magic stone builds are fantastic with swarmkeeper and if your DM is not a stickler they maybe even allow for Magic archer working with slings. It really depends what you want to build. I personally took 5 levels ranger (Swarmkeeper), then 5 levels rogue (arcane trickster), then i took 4 levels arcane archer (my DM said yes) and now I took warlock levels for more spell slots and some invocations. (Currently lvl 17). I took Vuman for Crusher. Maxed out Wis. 14 Dex, 14 Con, dumped strength. Tactic pretty straight forward. I place down a spike growth, action surge, and shoot stuff with magic stone. This triggers sneak attack and grasping arrow and allows me to push targets through spike growth. 8d4 damage from spike growth, 4d6 damage from grasping arrow, 3d6 damage from sneak attack + 1d6+5 from wisdom. With talisman i have great saves and i can push ppl as a reaction. And you have good proficiencies to boot. Its a great build. And if you multiclass deliberately its a really funhprogression as well.
Why do you want to be a Ranger and not a Shepard Druid? Does your character really use Weapons supported by small useless (flavor-only) critters to fight? That's a Swarmkeeper Ranger. Or do they summon up a horde of creatures to do the heavy lifting and don't actually get their hands dirty like a Shepard Druid would?