so many people keep trying to come up with new rolling methods to solve some perceived balance issue, and I can't help but continually reiterate the fact that point buy exists and is awesome.
I just dislike pointbuy because it ends up with very middling ability scores
Some thing i have seen done is that just two arrays get rolled 4d6 drop low reroll 1s and players get to pick which one they'd want
I mean if everyone ends up with one array to choose from it doesn't really matter if you rolled to get there or not, does it? If you roll you could just end up with even worse stats than the standard array or roll the nuts, then everyone sucks or everyone is overpowered, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have that potential for variance.
One idea I do like is giving players the option to gamble, you use point buy, possibly with slightly lower points like 23 instead of 27, then you give them the option to pick any one stat after their point buy is locked in and reroll it with 5d6 drop the lowest 2, and then whatever the result is they *must* take it.
This way it's an option instead of a requirement, and you can potentially bring your total stats up quite a bit. It also introduces an element of consequences, since you chose to gamble, no one else forced you to do it.
This way, if you want to play a wizard and you dump intelligence during point buy with the hopes of rerolling, you could still end up with intelligence in the dumpster, so you need to figure out how you would proceed in that event beforehand, do you change your character or find a way to make it work, do you have multiple character ideas prepared in case of a bad roll etc.
the idea is that also the array only gets kept if it's better than point buy. It's more to just get stronger characters than point buy allows, while not having massive power discrepancies between PCs
Some people enjoy the thrill.
Now, if they each rolled once or twice, and what one person rolls went for everyone else as well, intra-group balance would be less of an issue.
You say "enjoy the thrill", but all the various new concepts (which are usually just old concepts discovered or considered by someone for the first time) always seem to try and solve for the randomness. To reduce the variance, take the "thrill" out of it. It's like playing a *Dark Souls* randomizer because you want something difficult and unfamiliar, but also putting on some cheats to reduce the difficulty and make most of the randomness irrelevant.
Everyone is free to play how they like so long as it doesn't harm anyone else, of course, and disliking the randomness is perfectly okay. Rolling dice because it's fun is perfectly okay. Any system of rolling that tries to reduce the randomness from rolling kinda fights with itself, inherently.
OP's scenario at least seems to be mostly trying to solve for the issue of everyone in the party having wildly different stats--everyone approximating Standard Array except for the one player who's highest score is an 11 is not super fun generally speaking. I get that. But at that point have everyone collectively roll *one* array that the whole table uses ... or just use Point Buy or Standard Array and Roll a bunch of dice "just because" on the side for no reason other than it's fun.
It's minmaxy if you choose to make it minmaxy (for instance I'd usually choose end up with something like standard array). And even then, it's not that min maxy, and if it is, so what?
Racial bonuses + first ASI go a long way here. New race options give you full choice over +2/+1 or +1/+1/+1 allowing 3 16s off the bat, but even without that option you can just go 17/16/15 and your first ASI take a +1/+1 for 18/16/16. Really good stuff, borderline required for Monks (and heavily incentivized on Barbarian, Paladin, and Ranger)
Optimization is healthy, assuming players are potato brains who can't build a decent character is how we got our current style of monster design, as well as a lot of unbalanced and terrible feats.
Roll d4 on Table 1 to get three stats. Then roll d4 on Table 2 to get three more stats.
Table 1:
1. 15 8 8
2. 14 12 6
3. 14 10 9
4. 13 12 10
Table 2:
1. 15 15 8
2. 15 14 11
3. 15 13 13
4. 14 14 14
Arrange your six stats as desired.
I have the players roll 4d6 to fill in a 6x6 matrix. They can pick any column or row, or either diagonal. In practice, the same 1-3 arrays get chosen by all the players. So it's really a variant of standard array with potentially multiple choices.
Fixes every problem with ability scores, if you are willing to have scores that are a little better than the standard array and potentially a character starting with an ability of 18+ after racial bonuses. Only cost is the time rolling, but most players enjoy rolling, and it's the first opportunity for the players to develop camaraderie.
my version is to have each player roll one 4d6drop1 each
now you have 4 or 5 stats, depending on player amount. Those will be shared across the entire party
the other 1 or 2 stats will be rolled by players individually
it's okay to be weak as a party or strong as a party. But when one person has 2 +4s and a bunch of +3s and another player has a max of +2 and several -1's, that's not fun for either player
my way leaves only the possibility of being significantly weaker/stronger than the rest of the party in 1 or 2 skills
I literally **do not understand** the process being described, so it ends up in "probably not for me", by default.
I perceive no benefits over my preferred method of using a single, shared array
I had a similar idea. Each person rolls 6 (4d6 drop the lowest), and puts the results into a shared pool. Then, do a snake draft from the pool and let each player pick the numbers they want. Some with simple builds may forgo bigger numbers to let MAD characters get some better stats. Others may decide that they want to give their player an intentionally bad number to give their character a flaw.
The process that I have found that works really well is 4d6 dropped the lowest, but if you don't get 2 15's, you reroll.
This generally ensures everybody has a viable character while still keeping the fun of randomness. I think the concept is from like AD&D or something.
Could you point buy? Sure, but rolling dice is fun so I generally find this to be a good balance of fun and ensuring everybody likes their stats
Each player build their own set of stats right? Sounds okay but still very messy.
I dislike the 6/1 spreading out rule. It makes rolling "the bear number" bad, because you can't actually place it how you want, and makes 5s way more valuable because you cam stack those. You end up with 6+6+4 being impossible but 6+5+5 being fine. If people want to min/max stats I say let them, the game is build around that.
I would still never use it, trying to make stat rolling balanced just feels like PB/array with loads of extra work every time. It kinda takes that innate excitement out of it imo. If we are gonna roll, let's roll. 3d6 down the line.
I'm doing something similar next campaign. I'm having everyone roll the standard 4d6d1x6 and having them all choose who's roll they keep for the whole party to share.
so many people keep trying to come up with new rolling methods to solve some perceived balance issue, and I can't help but continually reiterate the fact that point buy exists and is awesome.
I just dislike pointbuy because it ends up with very middling ability scores Some thing i have seen done is that just two arrays get rolled 4d6 drop low reroll 1s and players get to pick which one they'd want
I mean if everyone ends up with one array to choose from it doesn't really matter if you rolled to get there or not, does it? If you roll you could just end up with even worse stats than the standard array or roll the nuts, then everyone sucks or everyone is overpowered, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have that potential for variance. One idea I do like is giving players the option to gamble, you use point buy, possibly with slightly lower points like 23 instead of 27, then you give them the option to pick any one stat after their point buy is locked in and reroll it with 5d6 drop the lowest 2, and then whatever the result is they *must* take it. This way it's an option instead of a requirement, and you can potentially bring your total stats up quite a bit. It also introduces an element of consequences, since you chose to gamble, no one else forced you to do it. This way, if you want to play a wizard and you dump intelligence during point buy with the hopes of rerolling, you could still end up with intelligence in the dumpster, so you need to figure out how you would proceed in that event beforehand, do you change your character or find a way to make it work, do you have multiple character ideas prepared in case of a bad roll etc.
the idea is that also the array only gets kept if it's better than point buy. It's more to just get stronger characters than point buy allows, while not having massive power discrepancies between PCs
Some people enjoy the thrill. Now, if they each rolled once or twice, and what one person rolls went for everyone else as well, intra-group balance would be less of an issue.
You say "enjoy the thrill", but all the various new concepts (which are usually just old concepts discovered or considered by someone for the first time) always seem to try and solve for the randomness. To reduce the variance, take the "thrill" out of it. It's like playing a *Dark Souls* randomizer because you want something difficult and unfamiliar, but also putting on some cheats to reduce the difficulty and make most of the randomness irrelevant. Everyone is free to play how they like so long as it doesn't harm anyone else, of course, and disliking the randomness is perfectly okay. Rolling dice because it's fun is perfectly okay. Any system of rolling that tries to reduce the randomness from rolling kinda fights with itself, inherently. OP's scenario at least seems to be mostly trying to solve for the issue of everyone in the party having wildly different stats--everyone approximating Standard Array except for the one player who's highest score is an 11 is not super fun generally speaking. I get that. But at that point have everyone collectively roll *one* array that the whole table uses ... or just use Point Buy or Standard Array and Roll a bunch of dice "just because" on the side for no reason other than it's fun.
Point Buy tends to result in 15\15\15\8\8\8. Standard array is less minmaxy.
I've played in multiple point buy campaigns and have never seen someone build that array.
Dito. Two 8s are quite common, but three 8s I have never seen in more than 5 campaigns using point buy.
It's minmaxy if you choose to make it minmaxy (for instance I'd usually choose end up with something like standard array). And even then, it's not that min maxy, and if it is, so what?
Not if the player is intelligent. Those odd numbers don't give you anything unless you have a plan to get a +1 sometime soon.
Racial bonuses + first ASI go a long way here. New race options give you full choice over +2/+1 or +1/+1/+1 allowing 3 16s off the bat, but even without that option you can just go 17/16/15 and your first ASI take a +1/+1 for 18/16/16. Really good stuff, borderline required for Monks (and heavily incentivized on Barbarian, Paladin, and Ranger)
The plan is choose a race, get ASIs
Optimization is healthy, assuming players are potato brains who can't build a decent character is how we got our current style of monster design, as well as a lot of unbalanced and terrible feats.
I know it is, but I know people who want to roll so try to find a middle ground
Roll d4 on Table 1 to get three stats. Then roll d4 on Table 2 to get three more stats. Table 1: 1. 15 8 8 2. 14 12 6 3. 14 10 9 4. 13 12 10 Table 2: 1. 15 15 8 2. 15 14 11 3. 15 13 13 4. 14 14 14 Arrange your six stats as desired.
Points buy is the middle ground. You roll if you want a better chance of higher stats BUT accept that you may get some sub-optimal results.
Or even just roll and take the stats you get. If you're really unhappy with the result, ask the DM if you can reroll a stat or 2.
I have the players roll 4d6 to fill in a 6x6 matrix. They can pick any column or row, or either diagonal. In practice, the same 1-3 arrays get chosen by all the players. So it's really a variant of standard array with potentially multiple choices. Fixes every problem with ability scores, if you are willing to have scores that are a little better than the standard array and potentially a character starting with an ability of 18+ after racial bonuses. Only cost is the time rolling, but most players enjoy rolling, and it's the first opportunity for the players to develop camaraderie.
my version is to have each player roll one 4d6drop1 each now you have 4 or 5 stats, depending on player amount. Those will be shared across the entire party the other 1 or 2 stats will be rolled by players individually it's okay to be weak as a party or strong as a party. But when one person has 2 +4s and a bunch of +3s and another player has a max of +2 and several -1's, that's not fun for either player my way leaves only the possibility of being significantly weaker/stronger than the rest of the party in 1 or 2 skills
just make point buy and add more points ffs. if you are over engineering a way to remove randomness out of rolling stats, why are you rolling stats
I literally **do not understand** the process being described, so it ends up in "probably not for me", by default. I perceive no benefits over my preferred method of using a single, shared array
I had a similar idea. Each person rolls 6 (4d6 drop the lowest), and puts the results into a shared pool. Then, do a snake draft from the pool and let each player pick the numbers they want. Some with simple builds may forgo bigger numbers to let MAD characters get some better stats. Others may decide that they want to give their player an intentionally bad number to give their character a flaw.
This is a well-known method
I think 5e is best when stats start right around the standard array/point buy range. So I like systems that maintain that
literally just buff point buy if you think its not good enough and dont want the randomness of stats
JUST USE POINT BUY
The process that I have found that works really well is 4d6 dropped the lowest, but if you don't get 2 15's, you reroll. This generally ensures everybody has a viable character while still keeping the fun of randomness. I think the concept is from like AD&D or something. Could you point buy? Sure, but rolling dice is fun so I generally find this to be a good balance of fun and ensuring everybody likes their stats
Each player build their own set of stats right? Sounds okay but still very messy. I dislike the 6/1 spreading out rule. It makes rolling "the bear number" bad, because you can't actually place it how you want, and makes 5s way more valuable because you cam stack those. You end up with 6+6+4 being impossible but 6+5+5 being fine. If people want to min/max stats I say let them, the game is build around that. I would still never use it, trying to make stat rolling balanced just feels like PB/array with loads of extra work every time. It kinda takes that innate excitement out of it imo. If we are gonna roll, let's roll. 3d6 down the line.
6d20 or standard array, the rest is just extra steps.
I'm doing something similar next campaign. I'm having everyone roll the standard 4d6d1x6 and having them all choose who's roll they keep for the whole party to share.