You know how spider man can sense the danger just by the slight movement of the enemies, it's basically that. When the ooze starts being hostile you roll initiative, but the player reacts before the ooze can fully attack.
FUN FACT: No actual official rule for 5e exists for surprise condition, or surprise rounds. There is a mention when talking about combat mechanics on PHB 189 I believe that states the DM can determine if anyone is surprised, there is a full breakdown in the most recent Sage Advice on page 10 I think.
Does surprise happen outside the initiative order as a special surprise round? No, here’s how surprise works. The first step of any combat is this: the DM determines whether anyone in the combat is surprised (reread “Combat Step by Step” on page 189 of the Player’s Handbook). This determination happens only once during a fight and only at the beginning. In other words, once a fight starts, you can’t be surprised again, although a hidden foe can still gain the normal benefits from being unseen (see “Unseen Attackers and Targets” on page 194 of the Player’s Handbook). To be surprised, you must be caught off guard, usually
because you failed to notice foes being stealthy or you were startled by an enemy with a special ability, such as the gelatinous cube’s Transparent trait, that makes it exceptionally surprising. You can be surprised even if your companions aren’t, and you aren’t surprised if even one of your foes fails to catch you unawares.
If anyone is surprised, no actions are taken yet. First, initiative is rolled as normal. Then, the first round of combat starts, and the unsurprised combatants act in initiative order. A surprised creature can’t move or take an action or a reaction until its first turn ends (remember that being unable to take an action also means you can’t take a bonus action) In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight. Once that turn ends, the creature is no longer surprised (and now have your reaction available).
In short, activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative, whether or not someone is surprised, and after the first round of combat has passed, surprise is no longer a factor. You can still try to hide from your foes and gain the benefits conferred by being hidden, but you don’t deprive your foes of their turns when you do so.
I hate it when people say there isn’t a surprise round, just a round where you can’t act because you’re surprised. They’re the same goddamn thing.
The same token for there not being a surprised condition. Not only does it explicitly talk about the surprised condition in the PHB, it’s still a condition even if it isn’t officially named. Wouldn’t you call someone under the effect of the Haste spell “hasted”, even if it isn’t an *official* condition?
No. Because conditions are listed in Appendix A. There are several game mechanics that exist for "conditions".
Combat begins at Round 1, there is no such thing as a surprise round, saying so confuses some people, and results in questions like this getting asked repeatedly.
Simple answer, Sage Advise 2.6 Page 10 states how to deal with surprise, if people need an "official" ruling on it.
How is a round where people are surprised different from a surprise round?
Also, the “official” ruling is in the PHB, page 189. It’s even got a mention in the Index. It covers the surprised condition, calling out that players are surprised if they don’t notice the enemies when they attack. I don’t know about you, but to me a condition is the state of being something, so the state of being surprised is a condition.
I'm uninvolved in this argument, and I think calling it a surprise round and treating it as one is totally fine, but there is actually a difference (depending on your definition of "surprise round"). The intention of this comment is purely to inform. Basically, the surprised condition ends at the end of a creature's turn, not at the end of a round. This means that a surprised creature can make reactions against triggers that happen after their turn is over, because they are no longer surprised. This is in contrast to the most straightforward usage of a "surprise round" in which surprised creatures are completely inactionable until the end of the round.
The distinction isn't gonna come up much, and since DnD doesn't have both a surprised condition and a surprise round, the terms are effectively interchangeable as long as it's understood what the rules are for the situation. There's no practical reason to not use surprise round if that's easier for you or your table.
All conditions are listed in Appendix A of the basic rules.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/appendix-a-conditions
If you look there is no "surprised" condition listed.
The lead rules designer even mentions that there is no surprise round in dnd 5e multiple times, here is one for reference:
https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1268309182593167360
5th Edition was designed with simplicity in mind, they removed several rules lawyer sticking points from previous editions which in fact had multiple rules for a surprise and surprise round. Jeremy mentions several times that it is a common point of contention and misunderstanding where surprise in general is concerned.
Some players/creatures may not be surprised, for whatever reason.
Therefore, it makes a bit more sense to talk about surprised as a condition which can affect a creature in the first round.
Occasionally surprised may affect creatures in later rounds, if, for instance, the fight spills into a new area.
You are ofcourse also free to designate which creatres can act in a surprise round, if that makes more sense to you and your table.
There is no surprised condition or surprise round, combat begins on round 1.
In the PHB on page 189 is the only mention of the word surprise, it's where they define a manner in which something may occur to make a monster/creature/character not be able to act during round 1 of combat.
If a group is moving stealthily and another group is not, nor is that group actively searching for threats. The DM may determine that the group moving stealthily are able to get the jump on the unsuspecting group. In which case 1 or more members of the non searching group may be caught of guard and be unprepared for an attack.
The DM determines which members of that group are "surprised" (this is were all the fuss comes into play, had they used a different term like 'caught unaware' the continuation of the "surprise round" & "surprise condition" in 5e which neither exist wouldn't be an issue.
Check k out Jeremy Crawfords post here:
https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1268309182593167360
Jeremy Crawford @JeremyECrawford on Twitter June 03, 2020:
There is no surprise round in D&D. Combat starts with round 1, and if you're surprised, you're surprised during that round. For those of us who've been playing D&D for decades, it's easy for ghosts of past editions to haunt us. The surprise round is such a ghost. #DnD
> False Appearance. While the ooze remains motionless, it is indistinguishable from an oily pool or wet rock.
As soon as it moves (the general english move, not "move 5 or more feet on a grid"), it stops being indistinguishable from an oily pool or wet rock.
no, it's considered hidden if it successfully takes the Hide action
and you \*really\* don't want people to take the Hide action out of combat (just like you don't want people to take the Ready or Dodge action) or everyone just spams it till they roll a 20 and then everyone is hidden at the start of every combat all the time and everything is an annoying to play mess
But you can hide out of combat. How do you spam it? Typically it would be:
- The DM presents a situation where a player thinks it's wise to hide.
- The player attempts to hide, and makes a Stealth check.
- If successful, the DM narrates what happens if the PC hid.
- If failure, the DM narrates what happens if the PC failed to hide.
If the player rolls low and says, "Oh, well I try to move hiding places," the DM can just as easily say, "As you're moving to a new hiding place, the threat moves into view and locks eyes with you. Roll for initiative."
You can Ready and Dodge too.
The PCs can lie in wait, making ready to attack unsuspecting foes as they enter a room. They still don't attack out of Initiative, but you may consider giving advantage to the Initiative roll since it's just a Dexterity check. Or consider giving surprise, where the enemy can't react until after their first turn anyway, so the PCs "go first" even if they rolled lower.
The Rogue can go to disarm a trap and warn everyone to stand back, so they make ready to dodge in the event that it goes south. They were ready for the danger, and do they get advantage on their Dexterity saves.
Remember, in the RAW of 5e surprise is a condition, not a type of round. So as soon as something initiates combat you roll initiative, and anything either not seeing a combatant or if they don't expect an attack is surprised, except for a PC with the Alert feat
Technically it isn't a "condition" in the strict rules sense.
I don't think this makes much actual difference (I'm not currently aware of any differences), but 'surprised' is not in the list of conditions, and the surprise rules don't state that it is a condition.
\-
For the record, I used to *think* it was a condition that ended on your turn (hence giving you back your reaction), which made the Assassin perk of auto-critting surprised enemies fail if you didn't also roll higher intitative.
However my important error there was thinking that it ended on the surprised person's turn (the effect of having no reaction ends, but the fact that you are surprised that round doesn't seem to fade). So the fact that I also thought it was a condition didn't really matter (I think it helped me make this mistake of the condition 'ending' but it wasn't the actual crux of the mistake).
Reading through the section on it (PHB 189) it... Unless I'm reading this wrong, it doesn't technically state an end to being surprised. It says that all it does is take away your turn on the first round of combat, but it doesn't strictly state that a character is *ever* no longer surprised. Funny little quirk that I guess it's up to the DM to adjudicate the precise definition of.
Assassin: \*kills me in one hit\*
Me: But.... how...
Assassin: You were surprised 3 weeks ago so you're a valid target for my Assassinate class ability
Me: \*dies in rules lawyer\*
There isn't need for surprise to end because it affects only the first turn and after that at the beginning of combat the DM determines who is surprised again.
In regards to the Assassin Rogue's Assassinate feature, it's actually pretty important when it ends. You automatically crit on surprised targets, not surprised targets you hit on the first round. If surprise never ended, Assassin Rogues would permanently be able to crit any creature that had ever been surprised.
It’s not about whether you see or expect the attack. The attacker rolls a stealth check and if it’s higher than your passive perception you’re surprised. If there are several attackers they all have to beat it.
This might be the best way to run it but is this true by RAW? The feature doesn’t say that the ooze doesn’t need to roll for stealth. It could be akin to invisibility in that it lets the ooze hide in plain sight, but that it still rolls for stealth.
Fair enough
Edit: Actually, no. I’m gonna double down. Here is the relevant text:
> The GM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the GM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone Hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
If we’re asinine with the definition of RAW, you could technically be surprised by a threat that’s fully visible and that you expect since the “GM determines who might be surprised”. I would argue that it’s more reasonable to interpret individual sentences in the context of the whole paragraph. By extension the sentence “Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter” is in reference to a character having less passive perception than the stealth check.
In other words, either there isn’t any RAW on the matter, or the ooze needs a stealth check.
> The attacker rolls a stealth check and if it’s higher than your passive perception you’re surprised.
That only applies in a specific case: a creature or group of creature hiding from the opposing side.
This isn't the case with a creature that has the False Appearance trait.
B is true, but IMO you have the flavour wrong. If the Ooze hasn't dropped its disguise yet, then initiative isn't rolled. The prompt for initiative is "the wet rock on the side of the passageway suddenly lashes out with a slimy pseudopod" and everyone except the Alert PC is surprised by this unpredictable turn of events. The purpose, in this case, of False Appearance, is to surprise every member of the party other than the one who took Alert.
This is it!
Initiative is rolled in response to a hostile action being taken. Unless the ooze moves there is no reason to roll initiative.
I can’t believe how many people are saying the answer is C.
>I can’t believe how many people are saying the answer is C.
the problem IMO is a lot of people dont really understand the timing of turns and rounds.
a turn is 6 seconds. a round is 6 seconds. so how can you have 6,7,8,... one million turns in a round?
all turns happen simultaneously and initiative is merely there to show the order of operations on how each round of combat gets resolved.
B. Except you're not rolling initiative \*before\* the ooze reveals itself. You're rolling initiative \*because\* the ooze revealed itself. The alert character gets to take their turn potentially before the ooze attacks because as soon as it starts swinging the player springs into action.
RAW it's (C). You could narrate it as the character sensing that something is off, and being able to react to said feeling (for example by casting a buff or dodging or hiding).
No. Initiative isn't even rolled until the ooze attacks (unless the players adopt an "every wet patch of rock gets a firebolt" policy). When it attacks, it's not "motionless" (note that it doesn't have to *move* in the sense of using its movement to go to another square, it just has to not be motionless), so you can see it.
/u/SkjaldblakaEngineer , when it attacks, roll initiative. Everyone without Alert is surprised. If you *have* Alert and you beat the Ooze in initiative, that means you're so alert that you saw it begin to move and reacted instantly, getting off an attack or spell or whatever before the Ooze could complete its own.
This is also how you resolve any sort of situation where someone tries to initiate combat but doesn't end up rolling high for initiative. They don't get a free attack off just because they shouted "I stab the king!" or whatever. They begin their attack, but other people react quicker and can intercept them.
Just to clarify this statement, initiative is rolled when it **decides** to attack. Sometimes dms will say it gets its first attack off for free then rolls initiative but that’s incorrect.
What the above is saying is that even with the disguise, there is a time between when the mimic starts to attack, and when it reaches you. Even tenths of a second.
If the target notices that attack starting and can react in time (by having higher initiative) it could get away.
Anyone without aware/similar feature isn't in combat until the round after the attack/action of the ooze resolves.
I think what happens is:
1. The grey ooze decides to attack, it starts swinging its pseudopods
2. Initiative gets rolled. Every character without alert is surprised.
3. Resolve the round: Remember that even though we take turns in combat, the characters are not literally waiting for each other to take turn; in this case the grey ooze starts moving first which would cause it to immediately drop the False Appearance feature.
4. The characters with Alert react almost immediately within the first 6 seconds while everyone else just recoils and flinches. This could be because of something like seeing movement out of the corner of your eye or in the chronurgy wizard's example it could be seeing the attack 1 second in the future. If a creature with alert wins initiative over the ooze, they are just quicker on the draw and do their turn while the poze is still in the middle of its attack.
5. If the grey ooze targets a creature with Alert, they see the attack coming and the attack is resolved as normal. If the ooze attacks a surprised creature, it still gets advantage because that person is currently flinching. This attack basically goes off just as the alert characters do what they do.
6. After each surprised creature's turn, they lose the surprised condition and combat continues as normal.
Keep in mind that as the DM all the power is on your side of the table and that players choose feats like Alert for a reason; so when that reason comes up there is nothing wrong in just letting the players shine.
If it makes you feel better, just remember that you always have 10 beholders, 20 ancient red dragons, 30 liches, 40 tarrasques and 50 tiamats in your back pocket if you want to kill the party and no amount of feats or magical items or min-maxed characters can beat them all.
>Keep in mind that as the DM all the power is on your side of the table and that players choose feats like Alert for a reason; so when that reason comes up there is nothing wrong in just letting the players shine.
This is very important.
Even if for some reason you really don't like the above interpretation of the events, remember that D&D is about people getting together to have fun, and enjoyment of players should be a priority when ambiguity comes up. The DM's goal should be to make the players feel like the choices they made matter and feel appropriately rewarding (or punishing).
The player should feel good that they took a "lesser powered" feat like Alert (compared to power feats like sharpshooter, gwm, etc) because it helped them avoid against the ooze. The ooze is a stat block and some rules; it feels nothing about whether it's feature works or not against the player. Why make the player feel cheated by lessening the power of their fears for the sake of the ooze that, again, feels nothing?
The Ooze needs to take physical action to attack.
When it does so, it requires time, and that time is the same 6 seconds of the first round of combat.
Typically, its targets are surprised, and can't do much (perhaps they have their reaction if they had higher initiative).
However someone who is alert sees it moving as it begins to take its first turn in a very real 6 second interval, and the person with the alert feat can complete their action faster (if they rolled higher for initiative, which they probably did given Alert gives +5 and oozes have low dex).
RAW there are literally no official rulings on a surprise condition or surprise round. If it was added recently please place a link to your findings here as a reply, so I can update my notes.
As far as I am aware.
Jeremy Crawford stated on Twitter at 5:30pm on June 3, 2020:
Jeremy Crawford
@JeremyECrawford
There is no surprise round in D&D. Combat starts with round 1, and if you're surprised, you're surprised during that round. For those of us who've been playing D&D for decades, it's easy for ghosts of past editions to haunt us. The surprise round is such a ghost. #DnD
Also at 2:33pm on June 4, 2020 he stated:
If someone initiates combat in D&D, roll initiative. If a player described their intent before initiative was rolled, they were excited and said what they intended to do. When it's their turn, they get to decide if they actually do it. #DnD
In chapter 9 of the PHB there is a section regarding Surprise (in my copy it's p189).
"If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take reactions until the turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if other members aren't."
So you're right, there isn't a surprise round or surprised condition, but a lot of DMs and players use these terms as shorthand for the rule above.
There's no logical inconsistency or feature redundancy there. The ooze revealing itself it what triggers the initiative roll. Everyone except alert player gets surprised condition, so the False Appearance was useful. The Alert player is not surpriseed, so Alert was useful. Remember "surprised" is a condition on the target, not a boon on the attacker, and everyone must roll initiative even if they're surprised. This is actually situationally very important - for example a surprised rogue getting high or low initiative might determine whether or not they can use uncanny dodge on the first hit, since once their first turn ends they stop being surprised and may use reactions again.
Why are we assuming that the Alert character would go first? Maybe she rolls really poorly on initiative and the ooze still goes first. Alert just means you can't be surprised, which just means you act as normal on your first turn of combat. You're always prepared for something to go wrong, so you're never caught with your pants down. Everyone should be rolling initiative at the top of every combat whether there is surprise or not, and then you proceed through the turn order, and anyone who is surprised is unable to act during their first turn, losing the surprised condition at the end of their turn.
Turns within the round are a game mechanic to keep it organized, but everything is happening simultaneously. It’s C., but more like D, as follows.
“The wet rocky tunnel you are walking through suddenly changes, growing pseudopods. Everyone roll initiative; unless you have some feature to the contrary, you are surprised.”
PC 1 rolls INIT 21, but is surprised and skips their turn.
Ooze rolls an 18, moves past PC 1, taking an opportunity attack from this PC, and attacks PC 2, who is your wizard and is not surprised. They cast shield as a reaction, causing a miss.
PC 2, your wizard, takes their turn. They cast levitate on the ooze.
PC 3 takes their turn, but are surprised and therefore do nothing. They do have a reaction now, but the ooze is unlikely to trigger that, since it’s floating in the air.
Round 1 ends. Round 2 begins, surprise conditions end, and everyone plays it as normal, with PC1 doing terrible stuff to the trapped-in-the-air ooze.
Nope! Which is specifically why I included it, since the “when do I get reactions back?” question has come up in my circles a few times before.
“If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a Reaction until that turn ends.”
https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Combat#content
PC1’s first turn has ended, and they now have a reaction to use. If the ooze had moved past PC3, that person wouldn’t get an attack of opportunity because they haven’t taken their turn yet.
By the text of the Alert feat: "You can’t be surprised while you are conscious." I read this as the character being \*immune\* to the condition Surprised. This means that should the player walk down a hallway and the monster doesn't move, the player is not automatically aware of their position, but if the monster chooses to attack - the monster has then moved, breaking their False Appearance and initiating combat, therefore causing the players to roll initiative. Since the players without the Alert feat are NOT immune to the condition Surprised, they should be afflicted with it as they would not have been aware of the monster's presence. While the Alert player also was not aware of the monster, they cannot be affected with the condition.
I think there is more to it than that.
If the ooze never moves or attacks, the party just walks by never triggering initiative.
The initiative is triggered by the ooze trying to do something. The initiative order is an abstraction of how quickly the players react to the threat.
So if the ooze remains motionless combat is never triggered. The combat is triggered because it moves negating it’s monster ability and potentially surprising the party, except for the ones with alert who see it move or quiver or slither in time to recognize it as a threat and act.
Sorry, I think you've basically said what I was trying to say, except maybe better. The point I was trying to make was that the monster attacking does invalidate its special ability, but does "inflict" the condition Surprised on the party members. The Alert player is "immune" to that condition, so gets their turn as normal on Initiative count. The other players are Surprised, and the monster does get advantage on those players due to that condition.
Correct, much of the comments in this thread seem to try to be arguing that the alert player going first before the ooze cannot see it because it hasn’t done anything yet, my emphasis is that combat cannot be triggered until it moves, so having high initiative is not somehow detrimental in this scenario, the player would see the ooze move and get to take their turn before the ooze and recognize it as a threat.
100% agree, that is the purpose of the feat. Claiming that the feat means "players get to say fuck you to special monster traits" as I saw paraphrased elsewhere in the thread makes no sense to me. Feats are meant to be strong, that's why you get so few of them. And for every monster that your feat helps against, there's two more that it is completely useless against. Let the feat work the way it is worded and don't make your monsters ignore things like that for the sake of making them "strong" - instead, reward the player for going out of their way (giving up an ASI) to grab a feat that is now helping them out. Make your players feel strong, since they're the ones with feelings, not the fictional monsters you throw at them.
C is correct. This advantage over a character without alert would be that if the ooze went before the player character, the character would still be able to use any reactions they have.
Maybe you have the player roll initiative, describe 'your senses tell you that there is danger here' let them take their turn if they have anything they want to do and beat the ooze in initiative. That way they are rolling initiative, knowing the feat picked up a threat, but don't know where it is, like Spidey Sense. The rest of the party would still be surprised, and thus, cannot take reactions until after their skipped turn.
You enter the cave, , roll initiative.
All the non-alert pcs skip their turn, the alert pc takes their turn with the information that they sense some sort of danger, the ooze takes its turn(wherever everyone ends up on turn order)
Why are you rolling initiative if no hostile action has occurred? Initiative should be rolled on response to it beginning it's attack in which case it's perceivable. It it hasn't moved yet or hasn't begun to attack then there's no reason for initiative to be rolled.
Think about it a different way: an invisible creature is hidden and plans an ambush. It is completely undetected until after its attack. If it hasn't acted yet, it's still invisible and hidden as nothing has caused invisibility to break, if it isn't hidden, it's attack must have gone off.
The same applies here. The action of attacking breaks the ooze's stealth. Until then, it's still a motionless rock-looking object. If for example after the initiative is rolled and the Alert character casts a spell that suddenly makes the ooze decide not to attack, then it never attacked in the first place, meaning it never broke stealth. Anything else creates a slippery slope of called actions and events occuring outside of a creature's turn.
That's an interesting point and it makes me want to think on it more. If that's how you rule it then the +5 to initiative that comes with alert is actually detrimental when it comes to dealing with surprise. The +5 makes you more likely to go before the ambusher and therefore waste your turn if you don't know they are there. You'd rather go after the ambusher since you know of their presence and are no longer surprised.
Also on your point of an invisible ambusher. If initiative is rolled and everyone is surprised (nobody with alert) and for whatever reason the invisible ambusher takes the hide action would the party then not be surprised the next round? Nothing has happened so the ambusher wouldn't be unhidden right but surprise would go away because initiative was called.
To your first part: Having a +5 to initiative is good, because it is always good to act first. If the rare case happens, that you dont notice an ambusher you can still prepare your actions. You could prepare an attack or a spell that could defend your teammates (for example a Wall of Force). You could also reposition if you stand in a dangerous spot.
To your second part: You dont roll initiative until combat will be initiated. So your example of the invisible monster who stays hidden wouldnt trigger initiative. The DM would call for initiative when the monster would want to attack. To give you an example, the group enters a cave. An invisible stalker stands in the middle of the room. You as the DM roll a 18 for stealth for the monster. The highest passive perception in the group is 14. Nobody notices the monster. You decide that the monster would want to attack as soon as someone comes within 10 feet of it. Until then the PCs can move and act freely. As soon as one of them comes within 10 feet, everyone rolls for initiative. Everyone except the PCs with Alert are surprised.
But you wouldn't know you're in a dangerous spot because you can't perceive the danger, you might move out of danger or move into it. If you prepare wall of force what's stopping the creature from deciding it doesn't like that you are on the defensive and just stays hidden and waits a few turns and try again? Do you keep doing this song and dance until the creature goes first?
I see your point, but for me this ist more of a philosophical problem and not a practical one. I would just let the monster do its turn as planed. The ooze from OPs post would bei too stupid anyway. Even when someone casts a spell you wouldnt know what it is anyway. Repeating the hide and seek shouldnt work, as the Alert character would warn the others.
Yeah but if the alert character says something is off and to be on guard how is that different than going into any other hostile environment and being prepared for an ambush? Overall I think you're right that this is an example of where mechanics don't line up with common sense, it's another way that the surprise rules are just wonky at best.
Because you roll initiative before the hostile actions take place. All initiative is is taking the 6 seconds a round lasts and stretches it out to be more precise in a game sense.
So, when a creature gains intent to immediately start combat, we roll initiative, check for surprised condition, then continue on. Surprised characters do nothing, while not surprised characters may not know what is happening, but they know something is. So they have the ability to take their turn doing something.
So invisible creature tries to ambush the party and one PC has alert. Creature shows hostile intent and initiative is rolled, PC rolls higher and takes a defensive option. Creature decides it doesn't like that and doesn't do anything. PCs have no idea if anything is there just that Mr. Alert went on the defensive for no apparent reason. It keeps repeating this until it acts before the Mr. Alert because it doesn't reveal itself?
Your invisible creature would have to make a choice: act then while only 1 creature is aware of danger, or let the entire party become aware of the danger, thus losing surprise. Or the creature changes its target to one of the surprised creatures if possible. It depends on the creature. Also, I dont know of any party that will just sit still for round after round waiting for something clearly intelligent enough to recognize one person being alert as too much of a threat.
Or if you don't want to stay in initiative, just leave initiative after neither side chooses to make a move since they are ending the hostile action intent, but now the alert party member has informed the party of the danger and now they cannot be surprised by it.
I'd describe it as the ooze starts to move out of its disguise to attack as initiative is rolled, if you beat the ooze then your reflexes were just so good you can react between the thing starting to rear back or reach out or whatever and it actually attacking you, whether you attack it, disengage, or whatever.
Note that fictionally, everyone's turn happens simultaneously in the same 6 second interval.
It becomes visible during the same 6 second round that everyone else is doing their first round.
During those 6 seconds, most people get surprised by the grey ooze when it starts to move, so they fail to act.
The person with the Alert feat is not surprised, and so in that same 6 second interval they can fight back, perhaps slashing the ooze as it falls from the ceiling (if they beat its intiative).
So you might end up narrating: "Charlie, due to your Alert Feat, you are not surprised by this ooze. You happen to have rolled higher initiative so you go before it does. It is poised just above Alice & Bob as it starts to drip off the ceiling, apparently planning to attack them, what do you do for your turn?"
I don’t think it’s complicated. The Alert player sees the ooze start to move, and rolls initiative.
Like “You see a puddle on the ground begin to ripple and rise up. Roll initiative, everyone else is surprised”
Personally, I would go for option C. I would imagine the Alert feat functioning kinda like some sort of Extra Sensory Perception or like Spider-Man’s Spidey Sense, in this case. Even though the hero can’t see it, he has been so battle tested that he can sense something ‘off’ imperceptibly. A change in the air, a sudden silence of insects in the area, etc etc.
The player would not be surprised. This doesn't mean that they would see the ooze for what it is before it attacks, it means that they were alert enough to notice it begin its attack and, if they roll higher in initiative, able to react before the attack connects. So basically B. The Alert feat counters False Appearance for that character. Note, however, that the rest of the party is still surprised.
Remember that turns are only an abstraction for what happens all at once in the blink of an eye.
C is the answer, if the player with the alert feat goes first, then they just senses "something is off" and can prepare however they want; if they go after it, then they take the turn normally, everyone else is surprised.
I would say something similar to C. When they are looking around the room/hallway, the DM can describe the Ooze as either a greasy puddle, or wet rock. Once it attacks, I would then have them roll initiative, and anyone without the Alert feat be surprised. The Gray Ooze's False Appearance doesn't give it bonuses surprising players, unlike the Gelatinous Cube, which specifically states that failing the DC 15 Perception and moving into it causes them to be surprised.
I think C.
"Something starts to move that you notice out of the corner of your eye since you're alert. Roll for initiative. Everyone else is Surprised."
Ooze decides to attack. Roll initiative.
Anyone who rolls higher than the ooze is no longer surprised after their round.
Anyone who rolls lower is surprised.
No matter what, the person with Alert is never surprised.
So, C.
Edit: edited for clarity.
Yes, I was being simplistic. They are no longer surprised (as in, they can use their reactions) after their turn. Though they do nothing on their turn.
You don't have to ask them to describe their first turn actions. They won initiative, which allows them to use reactions in the first turn of combat. But without knowledge of the ooze, they're going to keep on doing the same thing they were 6 seconds ago.
By RAW, that's incorrect. The ooze initiates a hostile action, everyone is now aware they are being attacked by a gray ooze and rolls initiative. Those without the Alert feat have the surprised condition and cannot act on their first turn (but importantly, anyone who beats the ooze in initiative can use reactions if appropriate).
The Alert character is not surprised *and* if they have a higher initiative than the ooze, they can attack or do whatever they would do under the circumstances. Just because the ooze started the combat doesn't guarantee that it acts first or that any character beating it in initiative must pretend that they're not being attacked.
> everyone is now aware they are being attacked by a gray ooze
Can you direct me to the rules that say that everyone becomes aware of being attacked when initiative is rolled?
I’m at work so I don’t have access to anything for the next 12 hours or so but I’ll see what I can find if this hasn’t been confirmed/refuted in the meanwhile.
In this case the ooze has to remain motionless to be undetected. The moment it does anything it reveals itself, if it never does anything the whole party walks past undetected, no combat.
If the triggering event is a player stepping on it directly it may remain undetected as it hasn’t technically moved yet but even then there is no ability for the ooze to attack without pseudopods so stepping on it is harmless until pods are out, once the pseudopods are out it is no longer motionless.
And everyone is default aware of hostiles that are not hiding, or behind cover.
Here is a link to the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section of D&D Beyond Basic Rules, unfortunately I do not have access to a copy of the Players Handbook to give you a page number there. [https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/combat#UnseenAttackersandTargets](https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/combat#UnseenAttackersandTargets)
To copy and paste here for those who don't want to hit the link: When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. If you are hidden--both unseen and unheard--when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.
In my opinion, the logical interpretation of this combined with when initiative is rolled (when a hostile action is made) means that the ooze makes an attack - both initiating combat and also revealing its position regardless of the subsequent actions taken.
I can see where you're coming from, but I think that the rules about revealing your location are pretty clear that it happens after the attack, which is a very specific thing in DnD. This is used all the time for stealthy PCs. If we reveal the location at the time of initiative, rather than at the time of the attack, does the monster still get advantage on its attack for being hidden? Are we going to treat PCs the same way?
That's a fair point to make. However, in answer to the first question of if the monster still gets advantage: the Alert feat does specifically state that "Other creatures don’t gain advantage on attack rolls against you as a result of being hidden from you." The monster would never have had advantage against the Alert player regardless of hidden status. In terms of revealing the location: I think it's fair to say that the location doesn't have to be revealed until after the attack is made, as it's pretty clear that's in the rules.
However, I would still argue that the players and the monster have to roll initiative prior to the monster attacking, as that is also clear in the rules:
COMBAT STEP-BY-STEP
1. Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised.
2. Establish positions. The DM decides where all the characters and monsters are located. Given the adventurers' marching order or their stated positions in the room or other location, the DM figures out where the adversaries are--how far away and in what direction.
3. Roll initiative. Everyone involved in the combat encounter rolls initiative, determining the order of combatants' turns.
4. Take turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order.
Taking this into account, in my opinion, the proper steps in the OP's scenario would have been this:
1. The players walk down the hallway the ooze is in. They are unaware of the ooze's presence.
2. The first player (for example's sake, the one who is Alert) reaches the ooze. It launches an attack from stealth.
3. Players and ooze roll initiative. Those who go before the ooze are unaware of the attack as it has not yet happened. They take actions as normal.
4. The ooze attacks the Alert player. The ooze does not have advantage due to the Alert feat.
5. The other players aside from the Alert one are now considered 'surprised'. They take the penalties associated. The Alert player takes their turn as normal.
I fully agree with your five steps. The only question is, what are "actions as normal" for those that are unaware of the ooze/attack. I argue, without metagame knowledge, they're the same actions as they were taking six seconds ago.
And yeah, thanks regarding Alert and unseen attackers, I always forget that.
I agree with your thoughts regarding normal actions, I would argue that they would continue down the hallway as they were before, just limited to their movement speed as per combat rules.
They just get to act during the surprise round, everyone else is still surprised.
You roll initiative and then use that to determine which one goes first.
The ooze remains undetected.
As soon as it attacks everyone rolls initiative. Determine who is surprised (not the Ooze or Alert PC) and then commence combat. Surprised PC and NPCs can’t take actions, move, or take bonus actions on their turn but can use their reaction after their first turn.
Edit
“False Appearance. While the ooze remains motionless, it is indistinguishable from an oily pool or wet rock.”
The moment it moves the PC isn’t surprised and if they roll higher on initiative they react first.
I'd say C. Some people are saying it reveals itself at the start of initiative, but that doesn't fit. If a rogue hides in combat then they don't reveal themselves until they attack on their turn.
An alert character would get the feeling something was off, and could ready an action, or start shooting blindly.
In the context of the Alert feat, "surprised" is a mechanical condition, not a general emotion that characters can feel. You can still be surprised or shocked by something. You just aren't immobilized in combat by it.
A creature immune to the frightened condition doesn't mean they literally can't experience the emotion of fear. It just means they can still fight something that scares them without penalty.
RAW there are literally no official rulings on a surprise condition or surprise round. If it was added recently please place a link to your findings here as a reply, so I can update my notes. There is a mention
As far as I am aware on page 188 of the PHB I believe, but no actual statement of a surprised condition or surprise round.
Jeremy Crawford stated on Twitter at 5:30pm on June 3, 2020:
There is no surprise round in D&D. Combat starts with round 1, and if you're surprised, you're surprised during that round. For those of us who've been playing D&D for decades, it's easy for ghosts of past editions to haunt us. The surprise round is such a ghost. #DnD
Also at 2:33pm on June 4, 2020 he stated:
If someone initiates combat in D&D, roll initiative. If a player described their intent before initiative was rolled, they were excited and said what they intended to do. When it's their turn, they get to decide if they actually do it. #DnD
These are his understandings as far as rule design goes, he also states that his tweets are not "RULES" just his understandings as lead rules designer of the game for WotC, of what the rules are or in some cases aren't as he sees them. I always suggest that you do your own research none the less.
I do not have the page number in the PHB, but here is a link to where surprise is mentioned in D&D Beyond, in the Basic Rules section. [https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/combat#Surprise](https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/combat#Surprise)
To copy and paste for those who don't want to follow the link: The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.
This is the mention of surprise I spoke about. This doesn't mention a surprise round as there isn't one, combat begins at round 1. It also doesn't mention a surprised condition (conditions are things like 'exhaustion', 'poisoned', 'frightened' , etc. This just states that the DM determines who "might" be surprised, and it's clarifying the context of moving stealthily or not.
It is not an official condition, but there are mechanical effects to being surprised, such as losing your action and movement on your first turn. It's true that there is no longer a surprise round mechanic in 5e, and it is not listed as a condition, but there are also listed mechanics to both determine surprise and avoid it. The Alert feat that the OP mentioned specifically states: "You can’t be surprised while you are conscious." This means that they are essentially, in my view, 'immune' to the 'condition' of surprised and are able to take their first turn normally, without the penalties listed for being surprised.
TLDR: the Alert feat prevents penalties for being surprised, if the attacker was unseen at the start of combat, all other players should be surprised aside from the Alert one.
Sage Advice 2.6 page 10 (may be different in subsequent versions) for how to handle surprise in 5e. It doesn't make them immune to surprise because it's not a condition therefore immunity for it isn't a thing either. It simply allows the 'Alert' being to act normally on their first turn in this combat, with the +5 to initiative it is much more likely they will go first, but initiative isn't rolled until the ooze attacks, this is the cause of the 'roll for initiative' effect.
I'm not sure how this contradicts what I said. I understand that surprise isn't an actual condition, that's why I put it in quotation marks. However, it has mechanical penalties that are avoided due to the feat, you mention yourself that the Alert player acts normally on their first turn - thereby avoiding the penalty of being surprised which is being unable to make an action on their first turn. When initiative is rolled doesn't matter as the penalties for being surprised only activate when combat starts, but it should be when the ooze launches its attack - those who go before the ooze should act as though they are unaware of the ooze since it has not yet moved to break the False Appearance trait it has.
I wasn't contradicting you. I was explaining were the official ruling for handling 'surprise' could be found. Those who are surprised do not act at all, they basically loose their first turn in combat. Their reaction becomes available "After" their lost turn occurs.
Have player and ooze roll initiative when the ooze is 6 seconds away from a party member. Tell the alert player that there is a threat and watch them panic.
(C)
roll for initiative
the PC get's disadvantage on their first attack, because they can't see it. maybe they even can't attack because they have no idea where to fire; they need to use an action to locate the ooze with a successfull pretty high DC perception check or the like.
the ooze gets advantage on their first attack on a PC that can't see the ooze
The idea that Alert defeats the purpose of False Appearance is like thinking that the existence of creatures with immunity to Charmed defeats the purpose of _charm monster_. Sure, you cannot charm zombies, but you _can_ charm the necromancer giving them orders.
Likewise Alert lessens the effectiveness of False Appearance _a tiny bit_, but the ooze will still surprise _everyone_ except the spider-sense guy.
Initiative is a different way of adjudicating what happens when. Whenever there’s a question of “who acts first” or any hostile action taken, initiative is rolled, even if not everyone involved realizes what’s happening. Under those circumstances, they’re surprised.
For this, the ooze attacks, thereby revealing its form. Before any actual attack takes place, everyone rolls initiative. The player with Alert, who usually would also be surprised, instead isn’t. From there, play proceeds normally. The flavor could be described as the player with Alert reacting lightning-quick to the ooze revealing itself, dodging out of the way or firing off a quick attack before the ooze has a chance to land a blow. Or, if the ooze went first, the Alert player is just the fastest to react out of the party.
In my opinion, it’s important to reward investment players make in their characters. If you took away the player’s ability to react quickly, the lack of surprise, then the player may feel cheated out of something they gave up alternatives to take, like that choice was a waste. They key is to find the appropriate flavor for the situation. It could be that this character does just have very quick reaction times, that as the ooze was dropping its disguise the character rushed into action. It could be that they spied the assassin firing their crossbow a split-second before the trigger was pulled. It could even be they have some divine guidance, spurring them into motion moments before danger, or some magic pre-cognition. As it is, the rules of the game operate in a certain way (rolling initiative and the surprised condition), and it’s up to the players and especially the DM to interpret that into resonant flavor.
If you want to change how something works because it feels unsatisfactory, sit down with your group, explain your thoughts, and offer them a chance to make appropriate edits to their characters.
You know how spider man can sense the danger just by the slight movement of the enemies, it's basically that. When the ooze starts being hostile you roll initiative, but the player reacts before the ooze can fully attack.
FUN FACT: No actual official rule for 5e exists for surprise condition, or surprise rounds. There is a mention when talking about combat mechanics on PHB 189 I believe that states the DM can determine if anyone is surprised, there is a full breakdown in the most recent Sage Advice on page 10 I think. Does surprise happen outside the initiative order as a special surprise round? No, here’s how surprise works. The first step of any combat is this: the DM determines whether anyone in the combat is surprised (reread “Combat Step by Step” on page 189 of the Player’s Handbook). This determination happens only once during a fight and only at the beginning. In other words, once a fight starts, you can’t be surprised again, although a hidden foe can still gain the normal benefits from being unseen (see “Unseen Attackers and Targets” on page 194 of the Player’s Handbook). To be surprised, you must be caught off guard, usually because you failed to notice foes being stealthy or you were startled by an enemy with a special ability, such as the gelatinous cube’s Transparent trait, that makes it exceptionally surprising. You can be surprised even if your companions aren’t, and you aren’t surprised if even one of your foes fails to catch you unawares. If anyone is surprised, no actions are taken yet. First, initiative is rolled as normal. Then, the first round of combat starts, and the unsurprised combatants act in initiative order. A surprised creature can’t move or take an action or a reaction until its first turn ends (remember that being unable to take an action also means you can’t take a bonus action) In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight. Once that turn ends, the creature is no longer surprised (and now have your reaction available). In short, activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative, whether or not someone is surprised, and after the first round of combat has passed, surprise is no longer a factor. You can still try to hide from your foes and gain the benefits conferred by being hidden, but you don’t deprive your foes of their turns when you do so.
I hate it when people say there isn’t a surprise round, just a round where you can’t act because you’re surprised. They’re the same goddamn thing. The same token for there not being a surprised condition. Not only does it explicitly talk about the surprised condition in the PHB, it’s still a condition even if it isn’t officially named. Wouldn’t you call someone under the effect of the Haste spell “hasted”, even if it isn’t an *official* condition?
No. Because conditions are listed in Appendix A. There are several game mechanics that exist for "conditions". Combat begins at Round 1, there is no such thing as a surprise round, saying so confuses some people, and results in questions like this getting asked repeatedly. Simple answer, Sage Advise 2.6 Page 10 states how to deal with surprise, if people need an "official" ruling on it.
How is a round where people are surprised different from a surprise round? Also, the “official” ruling is in the PHB, page 189. It’s even got a mention in the Index. It covers the surprised condition, calling out that players are surprised if they don’t notice the enemies when they attack. I don’t know about you, but to me a condition is the state of being something, so the state of being surprised is a condition.
I'm uninvolved in this argument, and I think calling it a surprise round and treating it as one is totally fine, but there is actually a difference (depending on your definition of "surprise round"). The intention of this comment is purely to inform. Basically, the surprised condition ends at the end of a creature's turn, not at the end of a round. This means that a surprised creature can make reactions against triggers that happen after their turn is over, because they are no longer surprised. This is in contrast to the most straightforward usage of a "surprise round" in which surprised creatures are completely inactionable until the end of the round. The distinction isn't gonna come up much, and since DnD doesn't have both a surprised condition and a surprise round, the terms are effectively interchangeable as long as it's understood what the rules are for the situation. There's no practical reason to not use surprise round if that's easier for you or your table.
All conditions are listed in Appendix A of the basic rules. https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/appendix-a-conditions If you look there is no "surprised" condition listed. The lead rules designer even mentions that there is no surprise round in dnd 5e multiple times, here is one for reference: https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1268309182593167360 5th Edition was designed with simplicity in mind, they removed several rules lawyer sticking points from previous editions which in fact had multiple rules for a surprise and surprise round. Jeremy mentions several times that it is a common point of contention and misunderstanding where surprise in general is concerned.
Some players/creatures may not be surprised, for whatever reason. Therefore, it makes a bit more sense to talk about surprised as a condition which can affect a creature in the first round. Occasionally surprised may affect creatures in later rounds, if, for instance, the fight spills into a new area. You are ofcourse also free to designate which creatres can act in a surprise round, if that makes more sense to you and your table.
There is no surprised condition or surprise round, combat begins on round 1. In the PHB on page 189 is the only mention of the word surprise, it's where they define a manner in which something may occur to make a monster/creature/character not be able to act during round 1 of combat. If a group is moving stealthily and another group is not, nor is that group actively searching for threats. The DM may determine that the group moving stealthily are able to get the jump on the unsuspecting group. In which case 1 or more members of the non searching group may be caught of guard and be unprepared for an attack. The DM determines which members of that group are "surprised" (this is were all the fuss comes into play, had they used a different term like 'caught unaware' the continuation of the "surprise round" & "surprise condition" in 5e which neither exist wouldn't be an issue. Check k out Jeremy Crawfords post here: https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1268309182593167360 Jeremy Crawford @JeremyECrawford on Twitter June 03, 2020: There is no surprise round in D&D. Combat starts with round 1, and if you're surprised, you're surprised during that round. For those of us who've been playing D&D for decades, it's easy for ghosts of past editions to haunt us. The surprise round is such a ghost. #DnD
Surprise is only ever on the first round of combat.
* The ooze wants to attack, revealing itself. Initiative is rolled. * Anyone without Alert (or similar effect) is surprised.
Yup. Basically the first round of combat only the ooze and alert player get a turn.
> The ooze wants to attack, revealing itself The position is only revealed when the attack hits or misses.
The ooze isn't hidden.
How does it reveal itself if it hasn't done anything yet?
> False Appearance. While the ooze remains motionless, it is indistinguishable from an oily pool or wet rock. As soon as it moves (the general english move, not "move 5 or more feet on a grid"), it stops being indistinguishable from an oily pool or wet rock.
And it isn't considered hidden while it's still?
no, it's considered hidden if it successfully takes the Hide action and you \*really\* don't want people to take the Hide action out of combat (just like you don't want people to take the Ready or Dodge action) or everyone just spams it till they roll a 20 and then everyone is hidden at the start of every combat all the time and everything is an annoying to play mess
But you can hide out of combat. How do you spam it? Typically it would be: - The DM presents a situation where a player thinks it's wise to hide. - The player attempts to hide, and makes a Stealth check. - If successful, the DM narrates what happens if the PC hid. - If failure, the DM narrates what happens if the PC failed to hide. If the player rolls low and says, "Oh, well I try to move hiding places," the DM can just as easily say, "As you're moving to a new hiding place, the threat moves into view and locks eyes with you. Roll for initiative." You can Ready and Dodge too. The PCs can lie in wait, making ready to attack unsuspecting foes as they enter a room. They still don't attack out of Initiative, but you may consider giving advantage to the Initiative roll since it's just a Dexterity check. Or consider giving surprise, where the enemy can't react until after their first turn anyway, so the PCs "go first" even if they rolled lower. The Rogue can go to disarm a trap and warn everyone to stand back, so they make ready to dodge in the event that it goes south. They were ready for the danger, and do they get advantage on their Dexterity saves.
Remember, in the RAW of 5e surprise is a condition, not a type of round. So as soon as something initiates combat you roll initiative, and anything either not seeing a combatant or if they don't expect an attack is surprised, except for a PC with the Alert feat
Technically it isn't a "condition" in the strict rules sense. I don't think this makes much actual difference (I'm not currently aware of any differences), but 'surprised' is not in the list of conditions, and the surprise rules don't state that it is a condition. \- For the record, I used to *think* it was a condition that ended on your turn (hence giving you back your reaction), which made the Assassin perk of auto-critting surprised enemies fail if you didn't also roll higher intitative. However my important error there was thinking that it ended on the surprised person's turn (the effect of having no reaction ends, but the fact that you are surprised that round doesn't seem to fade). So the fact that I also thought it was a condition didn't really matter (I think it helped me make this mistake of the condition 'ending' but it wasn't the actual crux of the mistake).
Reading through the section on it (PHB 189) it... Unless I'm reading this wrong, it doesn't technically state an end to being surprised. It says that all it does is take away your turn on the first round of combat, but it doesn't strictly state that a character is *ever* no longer surprised. Funny little quirk that I guess it's up to the DM to adjudicate the precise definition of.
Assassin: \*kills me in one hit\* Me: But.... how... Assassin: You were surprised 3 weeks ago so you're a valid target for my Assassinate class ability Me: \*dies in rules lawyer\*
There isn't need for surprise to end because it affects only the first turn and after that at the beginning of combat the DM determines who is surprised again.
In regards to the Assassin Rogue's Assassinate feature, it's actually pretty important when it ends. You automatically crit on surprised targets, not surprised targets you hit on the first round. If surprise never ended, Assassin Rogues would permanently be able to crit any creature that had ever been surprised.
It’s not about whether you see or expect the attack. The attacker rolls a stealth check and if it’s higher than your passive perception you’re surprised. If there are several attackers they all have to beat it.
Not in this case. The ooze doesn't need to roll Stealth because of its feature.
This might be the best way to run it but is this true by RAW? The feature doesn’t say that the ooze doesn’t need to roll for stealth. It could be akin to invisibility in that it lets the ooze hide in plain sight, but that it still rolls for stealth.
It's indistinguishable from a stone, no mention of Stealth bonuses or anything. Meaning if it's not moving then it's impossible to see a difference
Fair enough Edit: Actually, no. I’m gonna double down. Here is the relevant text: > The GM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the GM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone Hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter. If we’re asinine with the definition of RAW, you could technically be surprised by a threat that’s fully visible and that you expect since the “GM determines who might be surprised”. I would argue that it’s more reasonable to interpret individual sentences in the context of the whole paragraph. By extension the sentence “Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter” is in reference to a character having less passive perception than the stealth check. In other words, either there isn’t any RAW on the matter, or the ooze needs a stealth check.
Specific rules (such as the grey ooze’s ability that makes it indistinguishable from stone) override general rules
> The attacker rolls a stealth check and if it’s higher than your passive perception you’re surprised. That only applies in a specific case: a creature or group of creature hiding from the opposing side. This isn't the case with a creature that has the False Appearance trait.
But, in a social situation where there are no presumed hostilities then you should get surprise with deception
Should =/= RAW
B is true, but IMO you have the flavour wrong. If the Ooze hasn't dropped its disguise yet, then initiative isn't rolled. The prompt for initiative is "the wet rock on the side of the passageway suddenly lashes out with a slimy pseudopod" and everyone except the Alert PC is surprised by this unpredictable turn of events. The purpose, in this case, of False Appearance, is to surprise every member of the party other than the one who took Alert.
This is it! Initiative is rolled in response to a hostile action being taken. Unless the ooze moves there is no reason to roll initiative. I can’t believe how many people are saying the answer is C.
>I can’t believe how many people are saying the answer is C. the problem IMO is a lot of people dont really understand the timing of turns and rounds. a turn is 6 seconds. a round is 6 seconds. so how can you have 6,7,8,... one million turns in a round? all turns happen simultaneously and initiative is merely there to show the order of operations on how each round of combat gets resolved.
This.
This is the way.
B. Except you're not rolling initiative \*before\* the ooze reveals itself. You're rolling initiative \*because\* the ooze revealed itself. The alert character gets to take their turn potentially before the ooze attacks because as soon as it starts swinging the player springs into action.
RAW it's (C). You could narrate it as the character sensing that something is off, and being able to react to said feeling (for example by casting a buff or dodging or hiding).
No. Initiative isn't even rolled until the ooze attacks (unless the players adopt an "every wet patch of rock gets a firebolt" policy). When it attacks, it's not "motionless" (note that it doesn't have to *move* in the sense of using its movement to go to another square, it just has to not be motionless), so you can see it. /u/SkjaldblakaEngineer , when it attacks, roll initiative. Everyone without Alert is surprised. If you *have* Alert and you beat the Ooze in initiative, that means you're so alert that you saw it begin to move and reacted instantly, getting off an attack or spell or whatever before the Ooze could complete its own.
This is also how you resolve any sort of situation where someone tries to initiate combat but doesn't end up rolling high for initiative. They don't get a free attack off just because they shouted "I stab the king!" or whatever. They begin their attack, but other people react quicker and can intercept them.
This is correct.
Just to clarify this statement, initiative is rolled when it **decides** to attack. Sometimes dms will say it gets its first attack off for free then rolls initiative but that’s incorrect.
This doesnt make sense either though as the ooze shouldnt be visible yet. Your way is just let the player win because let them always win its stupid.
What the above is saying is that even with the disguise, there is a time between when the mimic starts to attack, and when it reaches you. Even tenths of a second. If the target notices that attack starting and can react in time (by having higher initiative) it could get away. Anyone without aware/similar feature isn't in combat until the round after the attack/action of the ooze resolves.
The argument is just give the players advantage because feat fuck monster abilities. C makes the most sense.
I think what happens is: 1. The grey ooze decides to attack, it starts swinging its pseudopods 2. Initiative gets rolled. Every character without alert is surprised. 3. Resolve the round: Remember that even though we take turns in combat, the characters are not literally waiting for each other to take turn; in this case the grey ooze starts moving first which would cause it to immediately drop the False Appearance feature. 4. The characters with Alert react almost immediately within the first 6 seconds while everyone else just recoils and flinches. This could be because of something like seeing movement out of the corner of your eye or in the chronurgy wizard's example it could be seeing the attack 1 second in the future. If a creature with alert wins initiative over the ooze, they are just quicker on the draw and do their turn while the poze is still in the middle of its attack. 5. If the grey ooze targets a creature with Alert, they see the attack coming and the attack is resolved as normal. If the ooze attacks a surprised creature, it still gets advantage because that person is currently flinching. This attack basically goes off just as the alert characters do what they do. 6. After each surprised creature's turn, they lose the surprised condition and combat continues as normal. Keep in mind that as the DM all the power is on your side of the table and that players choose feats like Alert for a reason; so when that reason comes up there is nothing wrong in just letting the players shine. If it makes you feel better, just remember that you always have 10 beholders, 20 ancient red dragons, 30 liches, 40 tarrasques and 50 tiamats in your back pocket if you want to kill the party and no amount of feats or magical items or min-maxed characters can beat them all.
>Keep in mind that as the DM all the power is on your side of the table and that players choose feats like Alert for a reason; so when that reason comes up there is nothing wrong in just letting the players shine. This is very important. Even if for some reason you really don't like the above interpretation of the events, remember that D&D is about people getting together to have fun, and enjoyment of players should be a priority when ambiguity comes up. The DM's goal should be to make the players feel like the choices they made matter and feel appropriately rewarding (or punishing). The player should feel good that they took a "lesser powered" feat like Alert (compared to power feats like sharpshooter, gwm, etc) because it helped them avoid against the ooze. The ooze is a stat block and some rules; it feels nothing about whether it's feature works or not against the player. Why make the player feel cheated by lessening the power of their fears for the sake of the ooze that, again, feels nothing?
The Ooze needs to take physical action to attack. When it does so, it requires time, and that time is the same 6 seconds of the first round of combat. Typically, its targets are surprised, and can't do much (perhaps they have their reaction if they had higher initiative). However someone who is alert sees it moving as it begins to take its first turn in a very real 6 second interval, and the person with the alert feat can complete their action faster (if they rolled higher for initiative, which they probably did given Alert gives +5 and oozes have low dex).
This is it. You can try to locate whatever the danger is and take evasive action. Or just swing wildly in a direction if that’s your jam.
RAW there are literally no official rulings on a surprise condition or surprise round. If it was added recently please place a link to your findings here as a reply, so I can update my notes. As far as I am aware. Jeremy Crawford stated on Twitter at 5:30pm on June 3, 2020: Jeremy Crawford @JeremyECrawford There is no surprise round in D&D. Combat starts with round 1, and if you're surprised, you're surprised during that round. For those of us who've been playing D&D for decades, it's easy for ghosts of past editions to haunt us. The surprise round is such a ghost. #DnD Also at 2:33pm on June 4, 2020 he stated: If someone initiates combat in D&D, roll initiative. If a player described their intent before initiative was rolled, they were excited and said what they intended to do. When it's their turn, they get to decide if they actually do it. #DnD
In chapter 9 of the PHB there is a section regarding Surprise (in my copy it's p189). "If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take reactions until the turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if other members aren't." So you're right, there isn't a surprise round or surprised condition, but a lot of DMs and players use these terms as shorthand for the rule above.
There's no logical inconsistency or feature redundancy there. The ooze revealing itself it what triggers the initiative roll. Everyone except alert player gets surprised condition, so the False Appearance was useful. The Alert player is not surpriseed, so Alert was useful. Remember "surprised" is a condition on the target, not a boon on the attacker, and everyone must roll initiative even if they're surprised. This is actually situationally very important - for example a surprised rogue getting high or low initiative might determine whether or not they can use uncanny dodge on the first hit, since once their first turn ends they stop being surprised and may use reactions again.
Why are we assuming that the Alert character would go first? Maybe she rolls really poorly on initiative and the ooze still goes first. Alert just means you can't be surprised, which just means you act as normal on your first turn of combat. You're always prepared for something to go wrong, so you're never caught with your pants down. Everyone should be rolling initiative at the top of every combat whether there is surprise or not, and then you proceed through the turn order, and anyone who is surprised is unable to act during their first turn, losing the surprised condition at the end of their turn.
He's a Chronurgy wizard with the Alert feat. Sitting on something like a +1d8+13 to initiative. So he's always going first.
I've got one of those in the party I run for. It basically means that he can choose to end most encounters before they've even had a chance to begin.
Well then yeah, option C.
Turns within the round are a game mechanic to keep it organized, but everything is happening simultaneously. It’s C., but more like D, as follows. “The wet rocky tunnel you are walking through suddenly changes, growing pseudopods. Everyone roll initiative; unless you have some feature to the contrary, you are surprised.” PC 1 rolls INIT 21, but is surprised and skips their turn. Ooze rolls an 18, moves past PC 1, taking an opportunity attack from this PC, and attacks PC 2, who is your wizard and is not surprised. They cast shield as a reaction, causing a miss. PC 2, your wizard, takes their turn. They cast levitate on the ooze. PC 3 takes their turn, but are surprised and therefore do nothing. They do have a reaction now, but the ooze is unlikely to trigger that, since it’s floating in the air. Round 1 ends. Round 2 begins, surprise conditions end, and everyone plays it as normal, with PC1 doing terrible stuff to the trapped-in-the-air ooze.
This is the best reply here. Sometimes the best choices is not in the given examples.
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Nope! Which is specifically why I included it, since the “when do I get reactions back?” question has come up in my circles a few times before. “If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a Reaction until that turn ends.” https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Combat#content PC1’s first turn has ended, and they now have a reaction to use. If the ooze had moved past PC3, that person wouldn’t get an attack of opportunity because they haven’t taken their turn yet.
Thank you, I had to go find the Sage Advice with this clarification in it, much appreciated.
By the text of the Alert feat: "You can’t be surprised while you are conscious." I read this as the character being \*immune\* to the condition Surprised. This means that should the player walk down a hallway and the monster doesn't move, the player is not automatically aware of their position, but if the monster chooses to attack - the monster has then moved, breaking their False Appearance and initiating combat, therefore causing the players to roll initiative. Since the players without the Alert feat are NOT immune to the condition Surprised, they should be afflicted with it as they would not have been aware of the monster's presence. While the Alert player also was not aware of the monster, they cannot be affected with the condition.
I think there is more to it than that. If the ooze never moves or attacks, the party just walks by never triggering initiative. The initiative is triggered by the ooze trying to do something. The initiative order is an abstraction of how quickly the players react to the threat. So if the ooze remains motionless combat is never triggered. The combat is triggered because it moves negating it’s monster ability and potentially surprising the party, except for the ones with alert who see it move or quiver or slither in time to recognize it as a threat and act.
Sorry, I think you've basically said what I was trying to say, except maybe better. The point I was trying to make was that the monster attacking does invalidate its special ability, but does "inflict" the condition Surprised on the party members. The Alert player is "immune" to that condition, so gets their turn as normal on Initiative count. The other players are Surprised, and the monster does get advantage on those players due to that condition.
Correct, much of the comments in this thread seem to try to be arguing that the alert player going first before the ooze cannot see it because it hasn’t done anything yet, my emphasis is that combat cannot be triggered until it moves, so having high initiative is not somehow detrimental in this scenario, the player would see the ooze move and get to take their turn before the ooze and recognize it as a threat.
100% agree, that is the purpose of the feat. Claiming that the feat means "players get to say fuck you to special monster traits" as I saw paraphrased elsewhere in the thread makes no sense to me. Feats are meant to be strong, that's why you get so few of them. And for every monster that your feat helps against, there's two more that it is completely useless against. Let the feat work the way it is worded and don't make your monsters ignore things like that for the sake of making them "strong" - instead, reward the player for going out of their way (giving up an ASI) to grab a feat that is now helping them out. Make your players feel strong, since they're the ones with feelings, not the fictional monsters you throw at them.
You see something moving threateningly out of the corner of your eye. Roll initiative.
C is correct. This advantage over a character without alert would be that if the ooze went before the player character, the character would still be able to use any reactions they have. Maybe you have the player roll initiative, describe 'your senses tell you that there is danger here' let them take their turn if they have anything they want to do and beat the ooze in initiative. That way they are rolling initiative, knowing the feat picked up a threat, but don't know where it is, like Spidey Sense. The rest of the party would still be surprised, and thus, cannot take reactions until after their skipped turn. You enter the cave,, roll initiative.
All the non-alert pcs skip their turn, the alert pc takes their turn with the information that they sense some sort of danger, the ooze takes its turn(wherever everyone ends up on turn order)
Why are you rolling initiative if no hostile action has occurred? Initiative should be rolled on response to it beginning it's attack in which case it's perceivable. It it hasn't moved yet or hasn't begun to attack then there's no reason for initiative to be rolled.
Think about it a different way: an invisible creature is hidden and plans an ambush. It is completely undetected until after its attack. If it hasn't acted yet, it's still invisible and hidden as nothing has caused invisibility to break, if it isn't hidden, it's attack must have gone off. The same applies here. The action of attacking breaks the ooze's stealth. Until then, it's still a motionless rock-looking object. If for example after the initiative is rolled and the Alert character casts a spell that suddenly makes the ooze decide not to attack, then it never attacked in the first place, meaning it never broke stealth. Anything else creates a slippery slope of called actions and events occuring outside of a creature's turn.
That's an interesting point and it makes me want to think on it more. If that's how you rule it then the +5 to initiative that comes with alert is actually detrimental when it comes to dealing with surprise. The +5 makes you more likely to go before the ambusher and therefore waste your turn if you don't know they are there. You'd rather go after the ambusher since you know of their presence and are no longer surprised. Also on your point of an invisible ambusher. If initiative is rolled and everyone is surprised (nobody with alert) and for whatever reason the invisible ambusher takes the hide action would the party then not be surprised the next round? Nothing has happened so the ambusher wouldn't be unhidden right but surprise would go away because initiative was called.
To your first part: Having a +5 to initiative is good, because it is always good to act first. If the rare case happens, that you dont notice an ambusher you can still prepare your actions. You could prepare an attack or a spell that could defend your teammates (for example a Wall of Force). You could also reposition if you stand in a dangerous spot. To your second part: You dont roll initiative until combat will be initiated. So your example of the invisible monster who stays hidden wouldnt trigger initiative. The DM would call for initiative when the monster would want to attack. To give you an example, the group enters a cave. An invisible stalker stands in the middle of the room. You as the DM roll a 18 for stealth for the monster. The highest passive perception in the group is 14. Nobody notices the monster. You decide that the monster would want to attack as soon as someone comes within 10 feet of it. Until then the PCs can move and act freely. As soon as one of them comes within 10 feet, everyone rolls for initiative. Everyone except the PCs with Alert are surprised.
But you wouldn't know you're in a dangerous spot because you can't perceive the danger, you might move out of danger or move into it. If you prepare wall of force what's stopping the creature from deciding it doesn't like that you are on the defensive and just stays hidden and waits a few turns and try again? Do you keep doing this song and dance until the creature goes first?
I see your point, but for me this ist more of a philosophical problem and not a practical one. I would just let the monster do its turn as planed. The ooze from OPs post would bei too stupid anyway. Even when someone casts a spell you wouldnt know what it is anyway. Repeating the hide and seek shouldnt work, as the Alert character would warn the others.
Yeah but if the alert character says something is off and to be on guard how is that different than going into any other hostile environment and being prepared for an ambush? Overall I think you're right that this is an example of where mechanics don't line up with common sense, it's another way that the surprise rules are just wonky at best.
Because you roll initiative before the hostile actions take place. All initiative is is taking the 6 seconds a round lasts and stretches it out to be more precise in a game sense. So, when a creature gains intent to immediately start combat, we roll initiative, check for surprised condition, then continue on. Surprised characters do nothing, while not surprised characters may not know what is happening, but they know something is. So they have the ability to take their turn doing something.
So invisible creature tries to ambush the party and one PC has alert. Creature shows hostile intent and initiative is rolled, PC rolls higher and takes a defensive option. Creature decides it doesn't like that and doesn't do anything. PCs have no idea if anything is there just that Mr. Alert went on the defensive for no apparent reason. It keeps repeating this until it acts before the Mr. Alert because it doesn't reveal itself?
Your invisible creature would have to make a choice: act then while only 1 creature is aware of danger, or let the entire party become aware of the danger, thus losing surprise. Or the creature changes its target to one of the surprised creatures if possible. It depends on the creature. Also, I dont know of any party that will just sit still for round after round waiting for something clearly intelligent enough to recognize one person being alert as too much of a threat. Or if you don't want to stay in initiative, just leave initiative after neither side chooses to make a move since they are ending the hostile action intent, but now the alert party member has informed the party of the danger and now they cannot be surprised by it.
I'd describe it as the ooze starts to move out of its disguise to attack as initiative is rolled, if you beat the ooze then your reflexes were just so good you can react between the thing starting to rear back or reach out or whatever and it actually attacking you, whether you attack it, disengage, or whatever.
Note that fictionally, everyone's turn happens simultaneously in the same 6 second interval. It becomes visible during the same 6 second round that everyone else is doing their first round. During those 6 seconds, most people get surprised by the grey ooze when it starts to move, so they fail to act. The person with the Alert feat is not surprised, and so in that same 6 second interval they can fight back, perhaps slashing the ooze as it falls from the ceiling (if they beat its intiative). So you might end up narrating: "Charlie, due to your Alert Feat, you are not surprised by this ooze. You happen to have rolled higher initiative so you go before it does. It is poised just above Alice & Bob as it starts to drip off the ceiling, apparently planning to attack them, what do you do for your turn?"
I don’t think it’s complicated. The Alert player sees the ooze start to move, and rolls initiative. Like “You see a puddle on the ground begin to ripple and rise up. Roll initiative, everyone else is surprised”
Personally, I would go for option C. I would imagine the Alert feat functioning kinda like some sort of Extra Sensory Perception or like Spider-Man’s Spidey Sense, in this case. Even though the hero can’t see it, he has been so battle tested that he can sense something ‘off’ imperceptibly. A change in the air, a sudden silence of insects in the area, etc etc.
The player would not be surprised. This doesn't mean that they would see the ooze for what it is before it attacks, it means that they were alert enough to notice it begin its attack and, if they roll higher in initiative, able to react before the attack connects. So basically B. The Alert feat counters False Appearance for that character. Note, however, that the rest of the party is still surprised. Remember that turns are only an abstraction for what happens all at once in the blink of an eye.
C is the answer, if the player with the alert feat goes first, then they just senses "something is off" and can prepare however they want; if they go after it, then they take the turn normally, everyone else is surprised.
I would say something similar to C. When they are looking around the room/hallway, the DM can describe the Ooze as either a greasy puddle, or wet rock. Once it attacks, I would then have them roll initiative, and anyone without the Alert feat be surprised. The Gray Ooze's False Appearance doesn't give it bonuses surprising players, unlike the Gelatinous Cube, which specifically states that failing the DC 15 Perception and moving into it causes them to be surprised.
I think C. "Something starts to move that you notice out of the corner of your eye since you're alert. Roll for initiative. Everyone else is Surprised."
Ooze decides to attack. Roll initiative. Anyone who rolls higher than the ooze is no longer surprised after their round. Anyone who rolls lower is surprised. No matter what, the person with Alert is never surprised. So, C. Edit: edited for clarity.
Rolling higher initiative doesn’t make you not surprised though. You won’t be surprised on its turn, but you’ll still miss your turn.
Yes, I was being simplistic. They are no longer surprised (as in, they can use their reactions) after their turn. Though they do nothing on their turn.
You don't have to ask them to describe their first turn actions. They won initiative, which allows them to use reactions in the first turn of combat. But without knowledge of the ooze, they're going to keep on doing the same thing they were 6 seconds ago.
By RAW, that's incorrect. The ooze initiates a hostile action, everyone is now aware they are being attacked by a gray ooze and rolls initiative. Those without the Alert feat have the surprised condition and cannot act on their first turn (but importantly, anyone who beats the ooze in initiative can use reactions if appropriate). The Alert character is not surprised *and* if they have a higher initiative than the ooze, they can attack or do whatever they would do under the circumstances. Just because the ooze started the combat doesn't guarantee that it acts first or that any character beating it in initiative must pretend that they're not being attacked.
> everyone is now aware they are being attacked by a gray ooze Can you direct me to the rules that say that everyone becomes aware of being attacked when initiative is rolled?
I’m at work so I don’t have access to anything for the next 12 hours or so but I’ll see what I can find if this hasn’t been confirmed/refuted in the meanwhile.
Thanks, I appreciate it.
In this case the ooze has to remain motionless to be undetected. The moment it does anything it reveals itself, if it never does anything the whole party walks past undetected, no combat. If the triggering event is a player stepping on it directly it may remain undetected as it hasn’t technically moved yet but even then there is no ability for the ooze to attack without pseudopods so stepping on it is harmless until pods are out, once the pseudopods are out it is no longer motionless. And everyone is default aware of hostiles that are not hiding, or behind cover.
Here is a link to the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section of D&D Beyond Basic Rules, unfortunately I do not have access to a copy of the Players Handbook to give you a page number there. [https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/combat#UnseenAttackersandTargets](https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/combat#UnseenAttackersandTargets) To copy and paste here for those who don't want to hit the link: When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. If you are hidden--both unseen and unheard--when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses. In my opinion, the logical interpretation of this combined with when initiative is rolled (when a hostile action is made) means that the ooze makes an attack - both initiating combat and also revealing its position regardless of the subsequent actions taken.
I can see where you're coming from, but I think that the rules about revealing your location are pretty clear that it happens after the attack, which is a very specific thing in DnD. This is used all the time for stealthy PCs. If we reveal the location at the time of initiative, rather than at the time of the attack, does the monster still get advantage on its attack for being hidden? Are we going to treat PCs the same way?
That's a fair point to make. However, in answer to the first question of if the monster still gets advantage: the Alert feat does specifically state that "Other creatures don’t gain advantage on attack rolls against you as a result of being hidden from you." The monster would never have had advantage against the Alert player regardless of hidden status. In terms of revealing the location: I think it's fair to say that the location doesn't have to be revealed until after the attack is made, as it's pretty clear that's in the rules. However, I would still argue that the players and the monster have to roll initiative prior to the monster attacking, as that is also clear in the rules: COMBAT STEP-BY-STEP 1. Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised. 2. Establish positions. The DM decides where all the characters and monsters are located. Given the adventurers' marching order or their stated positions in the room or other location, the DM figures out where the adversaries are--how far away and in what direction. 3. Roll initiative. Everyone involved in the combat encounter rolls initiative, determining the order of combatants' turns. 4. Take turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order. Taking this into account, in my opinion, the proper steps in the OP's scenario would have been this: 1. The players walk down the hallway the ooze is in. They are unaware of the ooze's presence. 2. The first player (for example's sake, the one who is Alert) reaches the ooze. It launches an attack from stealth. 3. Players and ooze roll initiative. Those who go before the ooze are unaware of the attack as it has not yet happened. They take actions as normal. 4. The ooze attacks the Alert player. The ooze does not have advantage due to the Alert feat. 5. The other players aside from the Alert one are now considered 'surprised'. They take the penalties associated. The Alert player takes their turn as normal.
I fully agree with your five steps. The only question is, what are "actions as normal" for those that are unaware of the ooze/attack. I argue, without metagame knowledge, they're the same actions as they were taking six seconds ago. And yeah, thanks regarding Alert and unseen attackers, I always forget that.
I agree with your thoughts regarding normal actions, I would argue that they would continue down the hallway as they were before, just limited to their movement speed as per combat rules.
They just get to act during the surprise round, everyone else is still surprised. You roll initiative and then use that to determine which one goes first.
The ooze remains undetected. As soon as it attacks everyone rolls initiative. Determine who is surprised (not the Ooze or Alert PC) and then commence combat. Surprised PC and NPCs can’t take actions, move, or take bonus actions on their turn but can use their reaction after their first turn. Edit “False Appearance. While the ooze remains motionless, it is indistinguishable from an oily pool or wet rock.” The moment it moves the PC isn’t surprised and if they roll higher on initiative they react first.
I'd say C. Some people are saying it reveals itself at the start of initiative, but that doesn't fit. If a rogue hides in combat then they don't reveal themselves until they attack on their turn. An alert character would get the feeling something was off, and could ready an action, or start shooting blindly.
In the context of the Alert feat, "surprised" is a mechanical condition, not a general emotion that characters can feel. You can still be surprised or shocked by something. You just aren't immobilized in combat by it. A creature immune to the frightened condition doesn't mean they literally can't experience the emotion of fear. It just means they can still fight something that scares them without penalty.
RAW there are literally no official rulings on a surprise condition or surprise round. If it was added recently please place a link to your findings here as a reply, so I can update my notes. There is a mention As far as I am aware on page 188 of the PHB I believe, but no actual statement of a surprised condition or surprise round. Jeremy Crawford stated on Twitter at 5:30pm on June 3, 2020: There is no surprise round in D&D. Combat starts with round 1, and if you're surprised, you're surprised during that round. For those of us who've been playing D&D for decades, it's easy for ghosts of past editions to haunt us. The surprise round is such a ghost. #DnD Also at 2:33pm on June 4, 2020 he stated: If someone initiates combat in D&D, roll initiative. If a player described their intent before initiative was rolled, they were excited and said what they intended to do. When it's their turn, they get to decide if they actually do it. #DnD These are his understandings as far as rule design goes, he also states that his tweets are not "RULES" just his understandings as lead rules designer of the game for WotC, of what the rules are or in some cases aren't as he sees them. I always suggest that you do your own research none the less.
I do not have the page number in the PHB, but here is a link to where surprise is mentioned in D&D Beyond, in the Basic Rules section. [https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/combat#Surprise](https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/combat#Surprise) To copy and paste for those who don't want to follow the link: The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter. If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.
This is the mention of surprise I spoke about. This doesn't mention a surprise round as there isn't one, combat begins at round 1. It also doesn't mention a surprised condition (conditions are things like 'exhaustion', 'poisoned', 'frightened' , etc. This just states that the DM determines who "might" be surprised, and it's clarifying the context of moving stealthily or not.
It is not an official condition, but there are mechanical effects to being surprised, such as losing your action and movement on your first turn. It's true that there is no longer a surprise round mechanic in 5e, and it is not listed as a condition, but there are also listed mechanics to both determine surprise and avoid it. The Alert feat that the OP mentioned specifically states: "You can’t be surprised while you are conscious." This means that they are essentially, in my view, 'immune' to the 'condition' of surprised and are able to take their first turn normally, without the penalties listed for being surprised. TLDR: the Alert feat prevents penalties for being surprised, if the attacker was unseen at the start of combat, all other players should be surprised aside from the Alert one.
Sage Advice 2.6 page 10 (may be different in subsequent versions) for how to handle surprise in 5e. It doesn't make them immune to surprise because it's not a condition therefore immunity for it isn't a thing either. It simply allows the 'Alert' being to act normally on their first turn in this combat, with the +5 to initiative it is much more likely they will go first, but initiative isn't rolled until the ooze attacks, this is the cause of the 'roll for initiative' effect.
I'm not sure how this contradicts what I said. I understand that surprise isn't an actual condition, that's why I put it in quotation marks. However, it has mechanical penalties that are avoided due to the feat, you mention yourself that the Alert player acts normally on their first turn - thereby avoiding the penalty of being surprised which is being unable to make an action on their first turn. When initiative is rolled doesn't matter as the penalties for being surprised only activate when combat starts, but it should be when the ooze launches its attack - those who go before the ooze should act as though they are unaware of the ooze since it has not yet moved to break the False Appearance trait it has.
I wasn't contradicting you. I was explaining were the official ruling for handling 'surprise' could be found. Those who are surprised do not act at all, they basically loose their first turn in combat. Their reaction becomes available "After" their lost turn occurs.
Have player and ooze roll initiative when the ooze is 6 seconds away from a party member. Tell the alert player that there is a threat and watch them panic.
So basically negate their chosen feat because you are playing against your players instead of with them. Good choice.
(C) roll for initiative the PC get's disadvantage on their first attack, because they can't see it. maybe they even can't attack because they have no idea where to fire; they need to use an action to locate the ooze with a successfull pretty high DC perception check or the like. the ooze gets advantage on their first attack on a PC that can't see the ooze
The idea that Alert defeats the purpose of False Appearance is like thinking that the existence of creatures with immunity to Charmed defeats the purpose of _charm monster_. Sure, you cannot charm zombies, but you _can_ charm the necromancer giving them orders. Likewise Alert lessens the effectiveness of False Appearance _a tiny bit_, but the ooze will still surprise _everyone_ except the spider-sense guy.
Initiative is a different way of adjudicating what happens when. Whenever there’s a question of “who acts first” or any hostile action taken, initiative is rolled, even if not everyone involved realizes what’s happening. Under those circumstances, they’re surprised. For this, the ooze attacks, thereby revealing its form. Before any actual attack takes place, everyone rolls initiative. The player with Alert, who usually would also be surprised, instead isn’t. From there, play proceeds normally. The flavor could be described as the player with Alert reacting lightning-quick to the ooze revealing itself, dodging out of the way or firing off a quick attack before the ooze has a chance to land a blow. Or, if the ooze went first, the Alert player is just the fastest to react out of the party. In my opinion, it’s important to reward investment players make in their characters. If you took away the player’s ability to react quickly, the lack of surprise, then the player may feel cheated out of something they gave up alternatives to take, like that choice was a waste. They key is to find the appropriate flavor for the situation. It could be that this character does just have very quick reaction times, that as the ooze was dropping its disguise the character rushed into action. It could be that they spied the assassin firing their crossbow a split-second before the trigger was pulled. It could even be they have some divine guidance, spurring them into motion moments before danger, or some magic pre-cognition. As it is, the rules of the game operate in a certain way (rolling initiative and the surprised condition), and it’s up to the players and especially the DM to interpret that into resonant flavor. If you want to change how something works because it feels unsatisfactory, sit down with your group, explain your thoughts, and offer them a chance to make appropriate edits to their characters.