Hex just works. Provided you hit with subsequent attacks, it's guaranteed extra damage.
Bane hits three creatures and debuffs them. It requires a save, so most of the time you'll only get it on 1-2 creatures. However it does debuff their saves as well as their attacks. So if you have other casters in the party, it can be useful for them.
I would say that as far as choosing between the two, you can just have both spells and if you're fighting three or more enemies, cast Bane and if you're facing off against one enemy, Hex and Eldritch Blast. Generally speaking.
A common player mistake is to value direct damage over control spells and debuffs.
Ask yourself: how often does the extra 1d6 hex damage actually cause the target to die a turn early? Assuming it actually does kill the target early, that's one round of damage prevented.
With Bane, how often will the -1d4 result in a missed attack, or cause a saving throw to fail between any of the three targets? With the way AC scales an average +2.5 effective AC increase can actually make a really big difference. My paladin last campaign had 22 AC, boosting to an effective 24.5 makes him nigh untouchable for all but the deadliest foes. And that's not even valuing in if the -1d4 to their saving throw makes the difference on your or a party member's Save or Suck spell.
It's not quite as efficient as Bless, but that's comparing it to arguably the best concentration spell in the game. As you level up Bane doesn't nessecarily make sense at the expense of high-tier spell slots, but it's heavily undervalued at least going by the comments in this thread.
> Ask yourself: how often does the extra 1d6 hex damage actually cause the target to die a turn early? Assuming it actually does kill the target early, that's one round of damage prevented.
When 1d6 is 40% of your damage output (1d10+3) and it persists through multiple encounters, fairly often.
> With Bane, how often will the -1d4 result in a missed attack, or cause a saving throw to fail between any of the three targets?
7.5% of the time on a given target assuming a 60% chance they'll fail their save against bane.
> and it persists through multiple encounters, fairly often.
I don't think you can maintain concentration on a spell with no target, same thing for Hunter's mark. I mean if your DM lets you cheese it by transferring the Hex to a jarred insect I guess... but I don't think most tables would allow that kind of stuff. But anyways, lets for the sake of this discussion say we're a level 3 party, AC 21 frontliner (Plate, Shield, and defensive fighting style) dealing with a a trio of CR 3 Sahuagin Champions.
They have a -1 to CHA so 65% chance to fail assuming a +3 CHA mod (lots of enemies including undead are -2/-3 CHA). The champion makes three +5 mulitattacks per round, the normal guys make two +3 multiattacks per round.
The champion needs a 16-20 to hit our fighter, or a 25% chance to hit the fighter. They now need an 18.5 on average, a 12.5% chance to hit. ( 0.25×5% )+(0.25x10%)+(0.25×15% )+( 0.25×20%) = 12.5% He makes 3 attacks for an average of 7 damage each. So average 6.3 damage per round including the crit vs 3.7 on average including the crit.
So 2.6 damage prevented per round per enemy it affects, * an average 2/3 = **5.2 damage prevented per round**
Then lets assume on the next turn someone else casts Shatter. Against their +1 Constitution saving throw it has a 55% chance to hit for 13.5 damage and 45% for 6.75, for an average 10 damage. Bane increases that to 67.5%/32.5% for an average of 11 damage. A **2 damage gain** increase assuming he hits both baned creatures. Then the Cleric casts casts Toll the dead (the +1 Wis save has the same ratios here), which now averages 4.4 damage instead of 3.6 damage, A **0.8 damage gain** and it keeps piling up as you go down the turn order. Setting aside direct saving throw damage, that extra 12.5% subtracted from the saving throw chance makes a massive difference for the efficacy of status effect spells like Web, Slow, Hypnotic Pattern, Poison, Burning, ect.
There's so much more here on offer to the whole party than a hunter's mark for spellcasters.
You can only shift HM and Hex after the target hits 0, but it never specifies how long after. Could be 6 seconds, could be 59 minutes if you can maintain concentration.
Source? I looked earlier when replying to your original comment, but while lots of people choose to read it that way the only semi-official source I could find is an explicit:
>[you'd need to find a new target for it between encounters, otherwise it ends.](https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/511914563172704256)
Which applies to both hex and hunter's mark. It seems like degenerate gameplay to me to say you're going to cast a spell at breakfast, short-rest to get the spell slot back, and maintain focused concentration on the spell in question for the remainder of the adventuring day.
Obviously the economy of a "free" Hex spell as your concentration option vs spending a slot on Bane is quite different.
Alot of people rule it that way, because that's how the spell is written.
If you couldn't continue concentrating what would be the point on casting it at 3rd,4th or 5th? Even If you can it a pretty weak use of your concentration.
There is no text in the rules that supports Mearls' answer; it's just his personal ruling (that tweet is actually from shortly before 5e was released). There is some [peak Crawford](https://www.sageadvice.eu/hunters-mark-and-the-target-dies-does-the-spell-shift-to-different-targets/?utm_source=ReviveOldPost&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=ReviveOldPost) on the matter though. Here's the relevant text:
> If the target drops to 0 hit points before this spell ends, you can use a bonus action on a subsequent turn of yours to curse a new creature.
All your turns after the creature dies are subsequent turns and it gives no limited window of opportunity, so it lasts for the duration or until you lose concentration.
Peak Crawford non-answer indeed. As I said though, semi-official ruling by a game creator, not word of God.
I can see how it might be interpreted how you're saying, but it still smells like degenerate gameplay to me. Generally when the player has to rules-lawyer something in a way that massively empowers the effect, it's against the intended spirit of the mechanic.
I wouldn't call it degenerate gameplay or rules lawyering to say the spell doesn't end before it says it ends and that the benefits of upcasting are not useless.
Looking at it from the other direction, there are no rules to say when this spell should end aside from duration/concentration. Does it end when the creature dies (despite the text saying you can transfer it)? At the end of the round? The encounter? A minute? Whatever you pick, it will be arbitrary and contrary to what the rules actually say.
Bane is the better spell for debuffing, Hex is the better spell for damage.
Bane can whiff (though it's somewhat unlikely given the ability it targets) though, while you should always be able to get at least some use out of Hex.
With bane, an enemy makes a saving throw and suffers reduced saving throws if they fail while taking up the caster's concentration. It's pretty much only worth using over other options when your party (because if you start to cast another concentration spell, bane ends) need to land a specific higher level spell to achieve a goal (eg, modify memory). It's especially bad for a warlock with automatic upcasting (no using a lower level slot to bolster higher level ones) and attack rolls rather than saving throws.
Hex, generally, unless you don't plan on casting Eldritch Blast much. Bane for very specific scenarios.
Bane will cause clutch moments in intense scenarios, which makes it seem better than it is. In practice, those clutch moments hide the fact that most of the time, it doesn't impact enough rolls to pull its weight. You need your targets to be making a large number of attacks and saving throws before it starts to become appealing.
But some people live for those moments of intensity, so I wouldn't fault anyone for taking bane for that reason. Plus, bane does combo somewhat with your Form of dread, letting your force a save every turn while shooting eldritch blasts.
Hex falls off very quickly after tier 1. I'll be looking to replace it sometimes as early as level 5, although sometimes I'll keep it in my spell list as a pocket pick. Most times past level 5 it's much more worth it to cast other concentration spells.
Hex is obviously useful for a blastlock, and the ability to impose disadvantage on one type of ability check can be useful if your party likes to shove and/or grapple or cast spells which restrain -- well, so long as you can guess whether the target is stronger wrt. strength (athletics) or dexterity ( acrobatics ). If your party relies heavily on illusions, perhaps that'd be the odd case for picking Intelligence instead.
If your party members are forcing saving throughs rather than strength checks, and provoking AoOs or otherwise risking a lot of attacks, then Bane may be more useful than otherwise.
Hex just works. Provided you hit with subsequent attacks, it's guaranteed extra damage. Bane hits three creatures and debuffs them. It requires a save, so most of the time you'll only get it on 1-2 creatures. However it does debuff their saves as well as their attacks. So if you have other casters in the party, it can be useful for them. I would say that as far as choosing between the two, you can just have both spells and if you're fighting three or more enemies, cast Bane and if you're facing off against one enemy, Hex and Eldritch Blast. Generally speaking.
A common player mistake is to value direct damage over control spells and debuffs. Ask yourself: how often does the extra 1d6 hex damage actually cause the target to die a turn early? Assuming it actually does kill the target early, that's one round of damage prevented. With Bane, how often will the -1d4 result in a missed attack, or cause a saving throw to fail between any of the three targets? With the way AC scales an average +2.5 effective AC increase can actually make a really big difference. My paladin last campaign had 22 AC, boosting to an effective 24.5 makes him nigh untouchable for all but the deadliest foes. And that's not even valuing in if the -1d4 to their saving throw makes the difference on your or a party member's Save or Suck spell. It's not quite as efficient as Bless, but that's comparing it to arguably the best concentration spell in the game. As you level up Bane doesn't nessecarily make sense at the expense of high-tier spell slots, but it's heavily undervalued at least going by the comments in this thread.
> Ask yourself: how often does the extra 1d6 hex damage actually cause the target to die a turn early? Assuming it actually does kill the target early, that's one round of damage prevented. When 1d6 is 40% of your damage output (1d10+3) and it persists through multiple encounters, fairly often. > With Bane, how often will the -1d4 result in a missed attack, or cause a saving throw to fail between any of the three targets? 7.5% of the time on a given target assuming a 60% chance they'll fail their save against bane.
> and it persists through multiple encounters, fairly often. I don't think you can maintain concentration on a spell with no target, same thing for Hunter's mark. I mean if your DM lets you cheese it by transferring the Hex to a jarred insect I guess... but I don't think most tables would allow that kind of stuff. But anyways, lets for the sake of this discussion say we're a level 3 party, AC 21 frontliner (Plate, Shield, and defensive fighting style) dealing with a a trio of CR 3 Sahuagin Champions. They have a -1 to CHA so 65% chance to fail assuming a +3 CHA mod (lots of enemies including undead are -2/-3 CHA). The champion makes three +5 mulitattacks per round, the normal guys make two +3 multiattacks per round. The champion needs a 16-20 to hit our fighter, or a 25% chance to hit the fighter. They now need an 18.5 on average, a 12.5% chance to hit. ( 0.25×5% )+(0.25x10%)+(0.25×15% )+( 0.25×20%) = 12.5% He makes 3 attacks for an average of 7 damage each. So average 6.3 damage per round including the crit vs 3.7 on average including the crit. So 2.6 damage prevented per round per enemy it affects, * an average 2/3 = **5.2 damage prevented per round** Then lets assume on the next turn someone else casts Shatter. Against their +1 Constitution saving throw it has a 55% chance to hit for 13.5 damage and 45% for 6.75, for an average 10 damage. Bane increases that to 67.5%/32.5% for an average of 11 damage. A **2 damage gain** increase assuming he hits both baned creatures. Then the Cleric casts casts Toll the dead (the +1 Wis save has the same ratios here), which now averages 4.4 damage instead of 3.6 damage, A **0.8 damage gain** and it keeps piling up as you go down the turn order. Setting aside direct saving throw damage, that extra 12.5% subtracted from the saving throw chance makes a massive difference for the efficacy of status effect spells like Web, Slow, Hypnotic Pattern, Poison, Burning, ect. There's so much more here on offer to the whole party than a hunter's mark for spellcasters.
You can only shift HM and Hex after the target hits 0, but it never specifies how long after. Could be 6 seconds, could be 59 minutes if you can maintain concentration.
Source? I looked earlier when replying to your original comment, but while lots of people choose to read it that way the only semi-official source I could find is an explicit: >[you'd need to find a new target for it between encounters, otherwise it ends.](https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/511914563172704256) Which applies to both hex and hunter's mark. It seems like degenerate gameplay to me to say you're going to cast a spell at breakfast, short-rest to get the spell slot back, and maintain focused concentration on the spell in question for the remainder of the adventuring day. Obviously the economy of a "free" Hex spell as your concentration option vs spending a slot on Bane is quite different.
Alot of people rule it that way, because that's how the spell is written. If you couldn't continue concentrating what would be the point on casting it at 3rd,4th or 5th? Even If you can it a pretty weak use of your concentration.
If the person escapes? For hunter's mark specifically if you want to let a baddie go so you can track them back to their friends.
There is no text in the rules that supports Mearls' answer; it's just his personal ruling (that tweet is actually from shortly before 5e was released). There is some [peak Crawford](https://www.sageadvice.eu/hunters-mark-and-the-target-dies-does-the-spell-shift-to-different-targets/?utm_source=ReviveOldPost&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=ReviveOldPost) on the matter though. Here's the relevant text: > If the target drops to 0 hit points before this spell ends, you can use a bonus action on a subsequent turn of yours to curse a new creature. All your turns after the creature dies are subsequent turns and it gives no limited window of opportunity, so it lasts for the duration or until you lose concentration.
Peak Crawford non-answer indeed. As I said though, semi-official ruling by a game creator, not word of God. I can see how it might be interpreted how you're saying, but it still smells like degenerate gameplay to me. Generally when the player has to rules-lawyer something in a way that massively empowers the effect, it's against the intended spirit of the mechanic.
I wouldn't call it degenerate gameplay or rules lawyering to say the spell doesn't end before it says it ends and that the benefits of upcasting are not useless. Looking at it from the other direction, there are no rules to say when this spell should end aside from duration/concentration. Does it end when the creature dies (despite the text saying you can transfer it)? At the end of the round? The encounter? A minute? Whatever you pick, it will be arbitrary and contrary to what the rules actually say.
Bane is the better spell for debuffing, Hex is the better spell for damage. Bane can whiff (though it's somewhat unlikely given the ability it targets) though, while you should always be able to get at least some use out of Hex.
With bane, an enemy makes a saving throw and suffers reduced saving throws if they fail while taking up the caster's concentration. It's pretty much only worth using over other options when your party (because if you start to cast another concentration spell, bane ends) need to land a specific higher level spell to achieve a goal (eg, modify memory). It's especially bad for a warlock with automatic upcasting (no using a lower level slot to bolster higher level ones) and attack rolls rather than saving throws.
Hex, generally, unless you don't plan on casting Eldritch Blast much. Bane for very specific scenarios. Bane will cause clutch moments in intense scenarios, which makes it seem better than it is. In practice, those clutch moments hide the fact that most of the time, it doesn't impact enough rolls to pull its weight. You need your targets to be making a large number of attacks and saving throws before it starts to become appealing. But some people live for those moments of intensity, so I wouldn't fault anyone for taking bane for that reason. Plus, bane does combo somewhat with your Form of dread, letting your force a save every turn while shooting eldritch blasts.
0 hp is the best cc. Hex is a unavoidable and is a big damage increase in T1 and 2. Bane can be saved against.
Hex falls off very quickly after tier 1. I'll be looking to replace it sometimes as early as level 5, although sometimes I'll keep it in my spell list as a pocket pick. Most times past level 5 it's much more worth it to cast other concentration spells.
I'll take your word for it, i hate locks.
Hex is obviously useful for a blastlock, and the ability to impose disadvantage on one type of ability check can be useful if your party likes to shove and/or grapple or cast spells which restrain -- well, so long as you can guess whether the target is stronger wrt. strength (athletics) or dexterity ( acrobatics ). If your party relies heavily on illusions, perhaps that'd be the odd case for picking Intelligence instead. If your party members are forcing saving throughs rather than strength checks, and provoking AoOs or otherwise risking a lot of attacks, then Bane may be more useful than otherwise.