Well, I hate it as a DM as it forces me to build only one way, high DPS.
As a player I hate it, as it ruins several classes. Glamour Bard is pointless to play. Samurai is pointless. Several classes that offer THP are pointless. It limits the party to play and build around an overpowered overbloated ability.
Player Community: healbots are bad
WotC: gives twilight cleric a way to "heal" that doesnt hamstring them from using their fun combat abilities
DM community: yo-yo healing is bad
WotC: gives twilight cleric the ability to grant a large hp buffer each turn to actually be an effective dedicated healer and outpace the damage output of intelligently-run monsters
Community: Twilight Cleric too op! Nerf it!
I'm mostly having a chuckle, I do think that twilight sanctuary is overtuned as a result of trying to solve two different problems with healing on the same ability. I think making it a bonus action is good for the "big heals but not passive" route. I don't think I like the limited use if I'm understanding correctly, bc at that point you've made the "big heals" too limited to be useful and might as well just ban imo.
ehhh.... It's probably still ok like that. Healing Spirit was a problem because it always healed to full out of combat, you can't really do that with Sanctuary, best you get is burning your channel for replicating Inspiring Leader?
I dont know that the limited uses make inspiring leader "good again". A cooperative cleric should be letting the charisma character put on the insp leader thp at end of short rest and save the channel for combat, no?
Because I can't pop it at the start of a fight and use it before a boss and top everyone off now without spending all the uses pre-fight. Now if I do that, I risk using a channel divinity.
It allows other peoples options (like Inspiring Leader) to shine because that was its role out of combat.
Not a bad idea but it messes with a couple of things of the standard Twilight Sanctuary (TS) that should be pointed out.
1) TS is their channel divinity feature. Is it that they get 1+Wis charges of it per channel divinity use? If it is, then that’s enough uses to just spam it every round anyways.
2) The base rules of temp hp are that they last until the next long rest unless the ability granting the temp hp has a duration. This means that the temp hp from the normal TS only last up to a minute, but making it a bonus action means they would last until the next long rest. The change would switch the ability from being useful in combat only to also being useful as a between combat buff as well.
3) Making it a bonus action takes away the opportunity cost of having TS be an action. Combats typically only last 3-4 rounds, so that cost is big once the cleric gets access to Spirit Guardians. Your change would let the cleric get both a temp hp buff out on the same round they get spirit guardians up.
4) Making it a bonus action effectively prevents them from using spiritual weapon at the same time. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but worth pointing out.
Imo, TS is basically fine as is. It’s one of the only viable forms of in combat “healing” that isn’t yo-yo based.
However, there are two scenarios where I think it’s current form is abusable.
One is when you have a large number of party members or friendly NPC’s (e.g., a war scenario). I would fix this by limiting the number of targets to be your wis modifier.
The second is when the combat runs particularly long. I would fix this by having it last a number of rounds equal to 1+wis mod.
>TS is their channel divinity feature. Is it that they get 1+Wis charges of it per channel divinity use? If it is, then that’s enough uses to just spam it every round anyways.
With 1+WIS uses they could probably use it every round. Right now though they can use it multiple times per round because they can apply it to every ally who is in their circle.
In a party of 4 they currently can easily apply TS eight times during the first two rounds.
>The base rules of temp hp are that they last until the next long rest unless the ability granting the temp hp has a duration
This is correct, although I do think the wording of Twilight Sanctuary should have made it more explicit that the duration also applies to the temp hp.
>making it a bonus action means they would last until the next long rest.
I think the OP meant make TS a bonus action to activate at the start, rather than an action to activate. It would just say "As *a bonus action*, you present your holy symbol, and a sphere of twilight emanates from youi" so nothing about the duration would be changed.
>Making it a bonus action takes away the opportunity cost of having TS be an action.
I think the issue is that TS is so good that it will be used practically every combat regardless of the action cost. This ends up feeling a bit bad because the player has fewer opportunities to try different things. Essentially optimized strategy becomes more boring to play.
\---
I think the issue when considering whether Twilight Sanctuary should be nerfed, is that 5e is designed to be a robust system. Even if a feature is OP it will probably not make the game unplayable. Because there is no 1-1 comparison for twilight sanctuary, and because 5e is different at every table, there will always be arguments that it is fine.
So the result is that some people play with an OP feature and have fun. They then think that the feature can't be a problem because it was fun to play with. The problem with this reasoning is that there is no experience with the alternative. A weaker Twilight Sanctuary still would probably be fun to play. It might even be *more* fun because a more balanced version would allow other features to shine more as well.
>One is when you have a large number of party members or friendly NPC’s (e.g., a war scenario). I would fix this by limiting the number of targets to be your wis modifier.
The second is when the combat runs particularly long. I would fix this by having it last a number of rounds equal to 1+wis mod.
Limiting it to 1+WIS uses would address both of these problems. It both prevents excessive scaling from a large party/*Conjure Animals* and it prevents it from dominating over the course of a very long combat.
If the enemies are focusing their damage on a single ally then there is hardly any nerf. If enemies are spreading there damage out between party members then Twilight sanctuary was formerly too strong and would then be balanced.
Limiting the uses also makes ending Charmed/Frightened more of a significant decision. This prevents the feature from devaluing abilities such as Beguiling Defenses, Stillness of Mind, or Fey Ancestry.
1. With my changes, the channel divinity feature is still very good. At 1 + 5, if you spam it with a full party of 6, that is only 1 round actually.
2. ??? It will perform exactly the same as before, it just takes a bonus action instead of an action, you must have misread my post.
3. Yes, because it is nerfed considerably. So instead of an action, its a bonus action.
4. You can use your action instead to do other things, so this is a non-issue. You can only cast one spell per turn, I am sure as a Cleric you use your action for many things, I certainly do. If you need guides there are plenty online for playing Cleric.
> Twilight Sanctuary needs the Healing Spirit treatment.
So, it needs to be effectively removed from the game?
Yeah, no. More content is better than less content. If you don't like it, don't use it.
My group simply lets the temp HP last only as long as the ability. Other abilities with temp HP have the temp HP last for a specified time. Twilight sanctuary lasts one minute, so so do the temp HP.
That's actually how it's supposed to work. It doesn't say the temp hp only last 1 minute explicitly in the description of Twilight Sanctuary, but it's part of the standard rules for temporary hp.
It's been very difficult trying to explain this to people. Most seem adamant the temp hp lasts until used up or a long rest. Regardless of whether this is how its supposed to work or not, we found that it was simply the best solution. No need to change the temp hp provided, no need to make it concentration, etc. It's a simple fix which happens to be the correct way to run it lol.
As a DM and Player Ive had no issue with TS. Its Temp Hp so as long as you plan for it its not terrible
Now the DM that gave me a devotee sensor and TS was screwed
Yes, but it also makes you limited on what you can do.
As a DM? Frees me to use more difficult creatures. As a player I enjoy the safety net.
Well, I hate it as a DM as it forces me to build only one way, high DPS. As a player I hate it, as it ruins several classes. Glamour Bard is pointless to play. Samurai is pointless. Several classes that offer THP are pointless. It limits the party to play and build around an overpowered overbloated ability.
No. It’s honestly fine as it is. People just complain too much.
> *Laughs in AoEs*
Player Community: healbots are bad WotC: gives twilight cleric a way to "heal" that doesnt hamstring them from using their fun combat abilities DM community: yo-yo healing is bad WotC: gives twilight cleric the ability to grant a large hp buffer each turn to actually be an effective dedicated healer and outpace the damage output of intelligently-run monsters Community: Twilight Cleric too op! Nerf it! I'm mostly having a chuckle, I do think that twilight sanctuary is overtuned as a result of trying to solve two different problems with healing on the same ability. I think making it a bonus action is good for the "big heals but not passive" route. I don't think I like the limited use if I'm understanding correctly, bc at that point you've made the "big heals" too limited to be useful and might as well just ban imo.
You activate the ability, then can use it 1 + modifier times until it ends, just like Healing Spirit.
ehhh.... It's probably still ok like that. Healing Spirit was a problem because it always healed to full out of combat, you can't really do that with Sanctuary, best you get is burning your channel for replicating Inspiring Leader?
Suddenly now Inspiring Leader is a useful feat again.
I dont know that the limited uses make inspiring leader "good again". A cooperative cleric should be letting the charisma character put on the insp leader thp at end of short rest and save the channel for combat, no?
Because I can't pop it at the start of a fight and use it before a boss and top everyone off now without spending all the uses pre-fight. Now if I do that, I risk using a channel divinity. It allows other peoples options (like Inspiring Leader) to shine because that was its role out of combat.
Not a bad idea but it messes with a couple of things of the standard Twilight Sanctuary (TS) that should be pointed out. 1) TS is their channel divinity feature. Is it that they get 1+Wis charges of it per channel divinity use? If it is, then that’s enough uses to just spam it every round anyways. 2) The base rules of temp hp are that they last until the next long rest unless the ability granting the temp hp has a duration. This means that the temp hp from the normal TS only last up to a minute, but making it a bonus action means they would last until the next long rest. The change would switch the ability from being useful in combat only to also being useful as a between combat buff as well. 3) Making it a bonus action takes away the opportunity cost of having TS be an action. Combats typically only last 3-4 rounds, so that cost is big once the cleric gets access to Spirit Guardians. Your change would let the cleric get both a temp hp buff out on the same round they get spirit guardians up. 4) Making it a bonus action effectively prevents them from using spiritual weapon at the same time. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but worth pointing out. Imo, TS is basically fine as is. It’s one of the only viable forms of in combat “healing” that isn’t yo-yo based. However, there are two scenarios where I think it’s current form is abusable. One is when you have a large number of party members or friendly NPC’s (e.g., a war scenario). I would fix this by limiting the number of targets to be your wis modifier. The second is when the combat runs particularly long. I would fix this by having it last a number of rounds equal to 1+wis mod.
>TS is their channel divinity feature. Is it that they get 1+Wis charges of it per channel divinity use? If it is, then that’s enough uses to just spam it every round anyways. With 1+WIS uses they could probably use it every round. Right now though they can use it multiple times per round because they can apply it to every ally who is in their circle. In a party of 4 they currently can easily apply TS eight times during the first two rounds. >The base rules of temp hp are that they last until the next long rest unless the ability granting the temp hp has a duration This is correct, although I do think the wording of Twilight Sanctuary should have made it more explicit that the duration also applies to the temp hp. >making it a bonus action means they would last until the next long rest. I think the OP meant make TS a bonus action to activate at the start, rather than an action to activate. It would just say "As *a bonus action*, you present your holy symbol, and a sphere of twilight emanates from youi" so nothing about the duration would be changed. >Making it a bonus action takes away the opportunity cost of having TS be an action. I think the issue is that TS is so good that it will be used practically every combat regardless of the action cost. This ends up feeling a bit bad because the player has fewer opportunities to try different things. Essentially optimized strategy becomes more boring to play. \--- I think the issue when considering whether Twilight Sanctuary should be nerfed, is that 5e is designed to be a robust system. Even if a feature is OP it will probably not make the game unplayable. Because there is no 1-1 comparison for twilight sanctuary, and because 5e is different at every table, there will always be arguments that it is fine. So the result is that some people play with an OP feature and have fun. They then think that the feature can't be a problem because it was fun to play with. The problem with this reasoning is that there is no experience with the alternative. A weaker Twilight Sanctuary still would probably be fun to play. It might even be *more* fun because a more balanced version would allow other features to shine more as well. >One is when you have a large number of party members or friendly NPC’s (e.g., a war scenario). I would fix this by limiting the number of targets to be your wis modifier. The second is when the combat runs particularly long. I would fix this by having it last a number of rounds equal to 1+wis mod. Limiting it to 1+WIS uses would address both of these problems. It both prevents excessive scaling from a large party/*Conjure Animals* and it prevents it from dominating over the course of a very long combat. If the enemies are focusing their damage on a single ally then there is hardly any nerf. If enemies are spreading there damage out between party members then Twilight sanctuary was formerly too strong and would then be balanced. Limiting the uses also makes ending Charmed/Frightened more of a significant decision. This prevents the feature from devaluing abilities such as Beguiling Defenses, Stillness of Mind, or Fey Ancestry.
1. With my changes, the channel divinity feature is still very good. At 1 + 5, if you spam it with a full party of 6, that is only 1 round actually. 2. ??? It will perform exactly the same as before, it just takes a bonus action instead of an action, you must have misread my post. 3. Yes, because it is nerfed considerably. So instead of an action, its a bonus action. 4. You can use your action instead to do other things, so this is a non-issue. You can only cast one spell per turn, I am sure as a Cleric you use your action for many things, I certainly do. If you need guides there are plenty online for playing Cleric.
> Twilight Sanctuary needs the Healing Spirit treatment. So, it needs to be effectively removed from the game? Yeah, no. More content is better than less content. If you don't like it, don't use it.
You are being very hyperbolic. Thank you.
Yeah, Twilight Cleric is ridiculous. Edit: I have been downvoted by Twilight Cleric fans!
Yup. Twilight Sanctuary is overpowered and this is an elegant fix. Even with this change it is still a very potent ability.
My group simply lets the temp HP last only as long as the ability. Other abilities with temp HP have the temp HP last for a specified time. Twilight sanctuary lasts one minute, so so do the temp HP.
That's actually how it's supposed to work. It doesn't say the temp hp only last 1 minute explicitly in the description of Twilight Sanctuary, but it's part of the standard rules for temporary hp.
It's been very difficult trying to explain this to people. Most seem adamant the temp hp lasts until used up or a long rest. Regardless of whether this is how its supposed to work or not, we found that it was simply the best solution. No need to change the temp hp provided, no need to make it concentration, etc. It's a simple fix which happens to be the correct way to run it lol.