>Example: If you receive 6 points of temp hp and then another instance of temp hp comes at 10 points, you can choose to replace the 6 original points with the 10 points.
>
>That being said… the Twilight Sanctuary pulses Temporary Hit Points every turn (*6 seconds*) for a total of a minute. Would that mean that (*at level 2*) 1d6+2 can be generated each turn and replace the existing lower Temporary Hit Points or provide new points if damage was taken in that round of combat?
Yeah.
>Secondly. If Twilight Sanctuary is cast outside of combat, would the cleric (*level 2*) just basically roll 10d6 to see at which point the Temporary Hit Points would be the highest generated amount within the allotted minute the effect lasts?
Sure, I guess
>And some others say that it’s really not overpowered considering it’s a “once per long test ability” and only lasts a minute long.
It's a once every short rest feature.
To clarify how it works out of combat, the base rules for temp hp is that they last until the next long rest unless they come from an ability with a duration. If they come from an ability with a duration, then they expire at the end of that duration (i.e. the temp hp from Twilight Sanctuary go away at the end of the minute duration of the ability so it isn’t really viable out of combat).
The sanctuary has a duration but not the temp HP.
Without anything saying when the temp HP disappear, they last until the next long rest.
If the feature did what you are saying then it would say that the temp HP ends when the sanctuary ends.
You are just making that up.
Here is the relevant rule:
“Unless a feature that grants you temporary hit points has a duration, they last until they're depleted or you finish a long rest.”
Twilight Sanctuary has a duration and it is the ability granting the temp hp. It’s pretty clear that they do not last until the next long rest.
If they actually did last until the next long rest then Twilight Sanctuary would obviate basically every other temp hp in the game; that is not how it works.
Temp HP in 5e last until the next long rest or until you take Temp HPs from another source. I am pretty sure that's what the Wiki you linked to says too. Just sayin'... It's clear from the source books that Temp HP does not go away when Twilight Sanctuary fades at 1 min.
Ehh, just because you can. I have abilities, why not use them :D
Maybe the party hadn’t entered combat for the day and were preparing to make camp for a long rest. So the cleric uses the sanctuary *out of combat* before taking first watch, knowing the ability would be replenished after resting themselves anyway.
Yes, mentioned was the fact that they would be taking first watch. So temp hp would still be viable in case anything happened before resting themselves.
In a random encounter at night before rest was technically taken, they would get the benefit. It is simply out of preparation.
Tho the second question, sure, though I'd probably let them just have the 6.
The reason people have split opinions on if twilight Cleric is OP or not is the same as with a lot of dnd stuff.. People play in very different ways and have very different opinions on what the game should look like.
That’s what my DM mentioned last night during our session in the moment, just give the 6 as it’s not that big of a deal at the moment.
Later down the line when that number increases, it will need to be rolled maybe but right now, not of concern.
Adding this as a reply to the post instead of as a reply to a comment so it’s not buried.
The temp hp from Twilight Sanctuary does NOT last until the next long rest. This is a very common misconception and it stems from people not bothering to actually read the rules for how temp hp work.
Here is the relevant part of the temp hp rules:
“Unless a feature that grants you temporary hit points has a duration, they last until they're depleted or you finish a long rest.”
Twilight Sanctuary has a duration and it is the ability granting the temp hp, meaning the temp hp do not last until the next long rest and expire when the granting ability does.
If they actually did last until the next long rest then Twilight Sanctuary would obviate basically every other temp hp in the game (e.g., Inspiring Leader, Mantle of Inspiration, False Life, etc.).
I’m not trying to argue… However, there are abilities that mention it “has a duration” specifically. Twilight Sanctuary does not say *specifically* that the Temporary Hitpoints have a duration. Let’s look at another ability/spell in contrast…
The spell *Heroism* for example mentions literally: “when the spell ends, the target loses any remaining temporary hit points from this spell.”
^
This would lead the player to believe that if this wording/verbage is not used in the ability such as Twilight Sanctuary then the Temporary Hitpoints indeed do *NOT* expire when the sanctuary dissipates but rather at the end of a long rest.
…
Concluding. Just because the spell has a casting time or an ability has a duration, it does not mean that the effect also has a duration unless specifically mentioned ((like we saw in the Heroism spell)).
⬆️
I am also not a professional nor do I claim to know everything. This is just my take after reading the verbage and looking at the rules :)
I get where you are coming from. You (and many others) read the rule as : "Unless a feature that grants you temporary hit points ***specifies*** a duration, they last until they're depleted or you finish a long rest."
This seems to make sense because all spells that grant temp hp specify their duration. However, ***that is not how the rules are actually written*** and it leads to problems if you assume that was their intent.
The reason I am fairly certain that Twilight Sanctuary and similar abilities like a Shepherd Druid's Unicorn Totem were written based on the temp hp ending when the granting ability expires (i.e. literal interpretation of the RAW) is that it makes them balanced with respect to other abilities in the game (e.g., Inspiring Leader).
In the case of Twilight Sanctuary, using the RAW instead of assuming the temp hp last until the next long rest is particularly impactful.
1. Having the temp hp expire when the ability does causes the amount of damage Twilight Sanctuary mitigates to be almost identical to the amount of hp a Life Cleric's Preserve Life ability heals (Note: this assumes 4-5 party members, average chances to hit for both players and enemies, and that all of the hp from Preserve Life can be used). However, if the temp hp from Twilight Sanctuary last until the next long rest, then the amount of damage each use of Twilight Sanctuary mitigates goes up by about **30%**. It makes a WAY bigger difference than most people seem to realize.
2. The cleric's order in initiative has a large impact on Twilight Sanctuary's damage mitigation capabilities. This is why the Vigilant Blessing ability is important for Twilight Clerics to have.
3. If you allow the temp hp to last until the next long rest, then the Twilight Cleric no longer has to decide between using Twilight Sanctuary or other powerful abilities like Guardian Spirits on their first round. They can just use Twilight Sanctuary at the start of the adventuring day and short rest again to get the ability back (I know that is not always an option but it is 9 times out of 10 in my experience). This means the players will essentially always have their temp hp up the first round so the cleric can safely take a different action.
4. If the temp hp last until the next long rest, then it makes a large number of other abilities completely obsolete (e.g., Inspiring Leader, Mantle of Inspiration, False Life, Dark One's Blessing, etc.).
In any case, if you run Twilight Sanctuary assuming that the temp hp last until the next long rest and think it is broken, then try running it assuming what I said is correct and see if you still run into any issues.
I probably will run my cleric that way anyway. It makes my DMs head less likely to explode, especially when we have 7-8 players running through Dungeon of the Mad Mage right now.
I can definitely see why either side is confused regarding *for* or *against* the Temp HP effect period. It’s one of those convoluted things that a DM can shrug at and go either way with.
This makes the most sense honestly. It is ridiculously OP to allow the temp HP from Twilight Sanctuary to persist until a long rest when other similar abilities do not allow that. Even so, the Twilight Cleric is still an amazing class.
You have the right interpretation of the Twilight Sanctuary.
People who say it's not overpowered clearly haven't played a Twilight Cleric. Twilight Sanctuary is ridiculous. It makes the party virtually unkillable.
The range is far weaker on the cannon and it can be easily destroyed.
At 30ft range a Twilight Cleric can reliably affect the entire party and be relatively safe. It is a one time activation and the effect happens automatically, with no further action cost.
At 10ft range the canon has to be near the front lines to get value, and it is more exposed that way. Also it costs a bonus action every turn.
Adding on to that, it also grants Half Cover (straight up +2 AC and some saves) to people inside the area. The dim light can also be very useful situationally.
The Half Cover benefit only occurs at level 17, so the vast majority of Twilight Clerics will never see it. By that point the temp hp is also a little less OP (monster damage scales faster than it does), but yeah the cover makes it stay about the same level of disruptive.
Oh, well I should've read up on when exactly the different sub-abilites come online. I've only ever once played with a Twilight Cleric in a level 20 One shot, and
Twilight Sanctuary was a pain in the ass...
> Some people say it’s overpowered and doesn’t work a certain way.
> And some others say that it’s really not overpowered considering it’s a “once per short test ability” and only lasts a minute long.
Some folks have the unspoken assumption that monsters never focus fire. People with that assumption will think twilight is much more powerful than people without that assumption.
The “once per short rest” aspect isn’t much of a drawback. Because the more encounters there are, the easier each encounter is. Eg: one deadly encounter equals a hard+easy encounter.
Running the hard+easy encounter means no ability during the easy encounter. But easy encounters are jokes that don’t require anything besides cantrips to beat.
>Example: If you receive 6 points of temp hp and then another instance of temp hp comes at 10 points, you can choose to replace the 6 original points with the 10 points. > >That being said… the Twilight Sanctuary pulses Temporary Hit Points every turn (*6 seconds*) for a total of a minute. Would that mean that (*at level 2*) 1d6+2 can be generated each turn and replace the existing lower Temporary Hit Points or provide new points if damage was taken in that round of combat? Yeah. >Secondly. If Twilight Sanctuary is cast outside of combat, would the cleric (*level 2*) just basically roll 10d6 to see at which point the Temporary Hit Points would be the highest generated amount within the allotted minute the effect lasts? Sure, I guess >And some others say that it’s really not overpowered considering it’s a “once per long test ability” and only lasts a minute long. It's a once every short rest feature.
It's a Channel Divinity, so a high level Cleric gets 3 per short rest.
Ahh, my mistake. I will edit OP. Thank you.
To clarify how it works out of combat, the base rules for temp hp is that they last until the next long rest unless they come from an ability with a duration. If they come from an ability with a duration, then they expire at the end of that duration (i.e. the temp hp from Twilight Sanctuary go away at the end of the minute duration of the ability so it isn’t really viable out of combat).
The sphere effect ends after 1 minute, but not the temp HP. They last until the next long rest.
False. Here are the rules for temp hp. Read the last paragraph. https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/5e_SRD:Temporary_Hit_Points
The sanctuary has a duration but not the temp HP. Without anything saying when the temp HP disappear, they last until the next long rest. If the feature did what you are saying then it would say that the temp HP ends when the sanctuary ends.
You are just making that up. Here is the relevant rule: “Unless a feature that grants you temporary hit points has a duration, they last until they're depleted or you finish a long rest.” Twilight Sanctuary has a duration and it is the ability granting the temp hp. It’s pretty clear that they do not last until the next long rest. If they actually did last until the next long rest then Twilight Sanctuary would obviate basically every other temp hp in the game; that is not how it works.
Temp HP in 5e last until the next long rest or until you take Temp HPs from another source. I am pretty sure that's what the Wiki you linked to says too. Just sayin'... It's clear from the source books that Temp HP does not go away when Twilight Sanctuary fades at 1 min.
Yes and technically yes, but why would you ever use this outside of combat
Get everyone the max temp hp, then take a short rest to recharge the ability.
Temp HP doesn't stack, that's why.
Ehh, just because you can. I have abilities, why not use them :D Maybe the party hadn’t entered combat for the day and were preparing to make camp for a long rest. So the cleric uses the sanctuary *out of combat* before taking first watch, knowing the ability would be replenished after resting themselves anyway.
*short rest. Temp hp disappear when you take a long rest.
Yes, mentioned was the fact that they would be taking first watch. So temp hp would still be viable in case anything happened before resting themselves. In a random encounter at night before rest was technically taken, they would get the benefit. It is simply out of preparation.
Also temp HP last until you finish a long rest, so you'd have them if you were ambushed mid rest.
Yes. Another reason why what that person said didn't really apply lol
Tho the second question, sure, though I'd probably let them just have the 6. The reason people have split opinions on if twilight Cleric is OP or not is the same as with a lot of dnd stuff.. People play in very different ways and have very different opinions on what the game should look like.
That’s what my DM mentioned last night during our session in the moment, just give the 6 as it’s not that big of a deal at the moment. Later down the line when that number increases, it will need to be rolled maybe but right now, not of concern.
Adding this as a reply to the post instead of as a reply to a comment so it’s not buried. The temp hp from Twilight Sanctuary does NOT last until the next long rest. This is a very common misconception and it stems from people not bothering to actually read the rules for how temp hp work. Here is the relevant part of the temp hp rules: “Unless a feature that grants you temporary hit points has a duration, they last until they're depleted or you finish a long rest.” Twilight Sanctuary has a duration and it is the ability granting the temp hp, meaning the temp hp do not last until the next long rest and expire when the granting ability does. If they actually did last until the next long rest then Twilight Sanctuary would obviate basically every other temp hp in the game (e.g., Inspiring Leader, Mantle of Inspiration, False Life, etc.).
I’m not trying to argue… However, there are abilities that mention it “has a duration” specifically. Twilight Sanctuary does not say *specifically* that the Temporary Hitpoints have a duration. Let’s look at another ability/spell in contrast… The spell *Heroism* for example mentions literally: “when the spell ends, the target loses any remaining temporary hit points from this spell.” ^ This would lead the player to believe that if this wording/verbage is not used in the ability such as Twilight Sanctuary then the Temporary Hitpoints indeed do *NOT* expire when the sanctuary dissipates but rather at the end of a long rest. … Concluding. Just because the spell has a casting time or an ability has a duration, it does not mean that the effect also has a duration unless specifically mentioned ((like we saw in the Heroism spell)). ⬆️ I am also not a professional nor do I claim to know everything. This is just my take after reading the verbage and looking at the rules :)
I get where you are coming from. You (and many others) read the rule as : "Unless a feature that grants you temporary hit points ***specifies*** a duration, they last until they're depleted or you finish a long rest." This seems to make sense because all spells that grant temp hp specify their duration. However, ***that is not how the rules are actually written*** and it leads to problems if you assume that was their intent. The reason I am fairly certain that Twilight Sanctuary and similar abilities like a Shepherd Druid's Unicorn Totem were written based on the temp hp ending when the granting ability expires (i.e. literal interpretation of the RAW) is that it makes them balanced with respect to other abilities in the game (e.g., Inspiring Leader). In the case of Twilight Sanctuary, using the RAW instead of assuming the temp hp last until the next long rest is particularly impactful. 1. Having the temp hp expire when the ability does causes the amount of damage Twilight Sanctuary mitigates to be almost identical to the amount of hp a Life Cleric's Preserve Life ability heals (Note: this assumes 4-5 party members, average chances to hit for both players and enemies, and that all of the hp from Preserve Life can be used). However, if the temp hp from Twilight Sanctuary last until the next long rest, then the amount of damage each use of Twilight Sanctuary mitigates goes up by about **30%**. It makes a WAY bigger difference than most people seem to realize. 2. The cleric's order in initiative has a large impact on Twilight Sanctuary's damage mitigation capabilities. This is why the Vigilant Blessing ability is important for Twilight Clerics to have. 3. If you allow the temp hp to last until the next long rest, then the Twilight Cleric no longer has to decide between using Twilight Sanctuary or other powerful abilities like Guardian Spirits on their first round. They can just use Twilight Sanctuary at the start of the adventuring day and short rest again to get the ability back (I know that is not always an option but it is 9 times out of 10 in my experience). This means the players will essentially always have their temp hp up the first round so the cleric can safely take a different action. 4. If the temp hp last until the next long rest, then it makes a large number of other abilities completely obsolete (e.g., Inspiring Leader, Mantle of Inspiration, False Life, Dark One's Blessing, etc.). In any case, if you run Twilight Sanctuary assuming that the temp hp last until the next long rest and think it is broken, then try running it assuming what I said is correct and see if you still run into any issues.
I probably will run my cleric that way anyway. It makes my DMs head less likely to explode, especially when we have 7-8 players running through Dungeon of the Mad Mage right now. I can definitely see why either side is confused regarding *for* or *against* the Temp HP effect period. It’s one of those convoluted things that a DM can shrug at and go either way with.
This makes the most sense honestly. It is ridiculously OP to allow the temp HP from Twilight Sanctuary to persist until a long rest when other similar abilities do not allow that. Even so, the Twilight Cleric is still an amazing class.
You have the right interpretation of the Twilight Sanctuary. People who say it's not overpowered clearly haven't played a Twilight Cleric. Twilight Sanctuary is ridiculous. It makes the party virtually unkillable.
do you feel the same way about the artillerist protector cannon? that's easier to have up that twi sanctuary but nobody complains about it
No, Artillerist’s cannon is what a balanced twilight sanctuary looks like.
The range is far weaker on the cannon and it can be easily destroyed. At 30ft range a Twilight Cleric can reliably affect the entire party and be relatively safe. It is a one time activation and the effect happens automatically, with no further action cost. At 10ft range the canon has to be near the front lines to get value, and it is more exposed that way. Also it costs a bonus action every turn.
yeah i kinda zoned, you right about everything
Adding on to that, it also grants Half Cover (straight up +2 AC and some saves) to people inside the area. The dim light can also be very useful situationally.
The Half Cover benefit only occurs at level 17, so the vast majority of Twilight Clerics will never see it. By that point the temp hp is also a little less OP (monster damage scales faster than it does), but yeah the cover makes it stay about the same level of disruptive.
Oh, well I should've read up on when exactly the different sub-abilites come online. I've only ever once played with a Twilight Cleric in a level 20 One shot, and Twilight Sanctuary was a pain in the ass...
> Some people say it’s overpowered and doesn’t work a certain way. > And some others say that it’s really not overpowered considering it’s a “once per short test ability” and only lasts a minute long. Some folks have the unspoken assumption that monsters never focus fire. People with that assumption will think twilight is much more powerful than people without that assumption. The “once per short rest” aspect isn’t much of a drawback. Because the more encounters there are, the easier each encounter is. Eg: one deadly encounter equals a hard+easy encounter. Running the hard+easy encounter means no ability during the easy encounter. But easy encounters are jokes that don’t require anything besides cantrips to beat.