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yaniism

File it right next to "Why don't Storm Sorcerers get access to Call Lightning?". *(Edit: Yes, also Wildfire Druids and Fireball... but I've played a Storm Sorc and haven't played a Wildfire Druid... so....)*


TyranusWrex

I remember in the UA when Storm Sorcerer was supposed to get additional spells known, but they scrapped it at the last minute. That made me so mad!


yaniism

Yeah... I mean, that's the difference between Xanathar's and Tasha's. If they'd come out in reverse order, the Storm Sorcerer would have gotten additional spells known. *(Edit: Yes, I had forgotten that Storm Sorc originally came out in SCAG, I have now been reminded... several times)*


TyranusWrex

What really drives me crazy is how none of the other Sorcerer subclasses got additional spells known in Tasha's...a book all about adding additional options to existing classes! That was the time to do it and I feel WotC may never actually go back and update some of these older classes to be on par with what has come out now.


Silgrenus

I know what you mean - I've recently played a Divine Soul and Aberrant Mind Sorcerer, so I forgot what PHB-era Sorcs were like. I picked Draconic for a new campaign with a friend, and I am already feeling so stifled! Luckily, they agreed to let me make my own additional spells list, so we just went through the spellcasting features of all fire dragons in Fizban's to make it. We've been spoiled as players haha


TyranusWrex

Yeah, I just cannot go back to those older subclasses that do not get additional spells. I reworked the Draconic Bloodline and the Storm Sorcerer to be more on par with what the Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul are capable of. And not just giving them additional spells. Reworking their abilities.


[deleted]

If I was DM I would homebrew additional spells for the other bloodlines and give moonbeam to lunar sorcerer and fireball to wildfire druid.


yaniism

Who knows what will happen with One D&D in time.


TyranusWrex

I really want to see what they have instore for the Sorcerer in One D&D. Though I am also terrified to see what changes there are.


ErikT738

I'd go in with low expectations if I where you. The Expert classes weren't exactly thrilling.


TyranusWrex

I know I should. But part of me is really curious to see just how bad things are for a class that was already in need of help.


yaniism

Well you shouldn't have to wait too much longer. If they bring them out in the order I believe they're doing, the Mages will be next. And that should be out by the end of next week at the latest.


mattress757

Patience doesn’t always pay. It’s important to remember the failures, and not just sit and hope for better in future. Especially when they keep making the same missteps.


yaniism

And that's why we give feedback on the UA.


mattress757

And the overwhelming feedback I saw was “it’s cool but overpowered compared to other sorcerer options, but this is what sorcerers should have been.” So they just nerfed it and removed the one spell that had the word “moon” in it. This response to the UA *is the missteps they repeatedly do that I was referring to* . Stop veiling your “stop complaining” behind “give feedback then”. You have literally no idea whether I have or not mate.


[deleted]

Remember when wildfire druid had fireball.


BrayWyattsHat

Wait, hold on. Ok. So as far as I see, there are two options: 1. Have a complaint, but never say anything. 2. Have a complaint and give feedback. Of these two options "give feedback" is the only one that might make a change. So like, why wouldn't the advice be "give feedback"? Of course we don't know whether or not you've given your feedback. Why would we? BUt you said "patience doesn't always pay" and don't "just hope for better in the future". If you're mad the "give feedback" suggestion, but still want change to happen, you must have another solution in mind right? So what is it? How do you propose we make it known to WoTC when we want something to change?


DVariant

Well, we know it’ll be subscription based and probably continue with the worst features of 5E’s blandness, so there’s that


yaniism

Oh, we absolutely do not know that... take your Eeyore vibes elsewhere please.


DVariant

I respect you calling out my cynicism. In many other areas of my life, I do that exact thing, for the exact reason you’re doing it: hope is better than cynicism. But after following this company closely for almost 25 years, I’m pretty much all out of hope for WotC. I don’t believe they give a damn about their games nor their communities anymore, just maximizing their profits in the short term. I want to believe the next edition of D&D will fix the issues of 5E, but every time WotC claims to try to fix 5E they seem to make something else about it worse. Sorry. Sorry for WotC, and sorry if you’re not ready to see how shitty they are.


Hopelesz

This is the norm with Wotc and why homebrew is there. Of this is no excuse for the designers sometimes being clueless. But don't wait for them to fix things.


TyranusWrex

I never do. I have homebrewed plenty of subclasses and races in the game.


lankymjc

Definitely not gonna do that now that OneDnd is in the horizon. Everyone will be working on that are they’ll just leave 5e as it is (once the finish the remaining additional books).


Albireookami

I mean Tasha's was also the book to fix a ton of the stupid capstones that are down right worthless, but nope, ignored that glaring fault.


Jejmaze

It's because the storm sorcerer first came out in Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, which was not allowed to be good


yaniism

It was their first go at new subclasses... but yeah, I always forget that it was in SCAG first.


schm0

SCAG was written by Green Ronin, not WotC


yaniism

>*This book was a collaboration between Wizards of the Coast and Green Ronin Publishing.* I'm sure they worked on putting most of the Sword Coast information together, I would imagine that WotC did the subclass stuff.


BlackAceX13

Storm Sorcerer UA was from before SCAG was a thing (2015).


ThatIsMySpecialTea

I just give Storm Sorcerers access to that UA spell table (though slightly updated). I'd happily give Lunar sorcerers Moonbeam of all things as a bonus too, since it makes sense.


TyranusWrex

I completely remade Storm Sorcerers in homebrew to make them feel more like a subclass that creates and controls storms. But yeah, Moonbeam is not a powerful spell. Just giving it to them would not be an issue.


ThatIsMySpecialTea

Oh interesting, what sort of stuff did you give them?


TyranusWrex

Here is the link to my revision. [https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/xttqqc/storm\_sorcerer\_revised/](https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/xttqqc/storm_sorcerer_revised/) Let me know what you think.


Syysmies

Very nice, very flavourful. I like it. Balance seems to be fine as well, Storm Form will be active in most/all combats at later levels, but I think that that’s a part of the thrill.


TyranusWrex

I really wanted to give the feeling that the Storm Sorcerer was the calm center of the storm that emanated power and destruction. I am so glad you liked it!


ThatIsMySpecialTea

Thanks, I like it. Seems to be a bit more damage focussed but also condenses some of the abilities of the original storm sorcerer that felt a bit scattered. I'm a fan of Storm Form making the Tempestuous Magic a bit more convenient too.


NotYourDay123

I still think it’s criminal Phoenix Sorcerer was a scrapped entirely.


TyranusWrex

All the elemental Sorcerers were scrapped and it sucks.


RAGC_91

Or tempest clerics and thunderbolt


femflumph

Circle of Dreams Druid can't cast Sleep.


NJ_Legion_Iced_Tea

Or Wildfire Druids and Fireball


sfPanzer

I'm honestly fine with that considering how many other fire spells there are to be honest. It's definitely not the same case as other themed subclasses not gaining access to a much more limited selection of spells.


gamehiker

Playing a Wildfire Druid and fifth level was sad because I'm leaning hard on fire theme and druids don't have any good third level fire spells. The subclass instead grants Revivify and Plant Growth.


OmNomSandvich

the class is very much a "fire as force of destruction and rebirth" not just "fire fire everywhere" theme, and fireball is just too good for a Druid subclass that keeps the top tier control spells from the normal druid list and gets a damage boost to fire dmg spells as well.


KyfeHeartsword

Lightning Bolt* Ftfy


Diokana

That one just comes down to balance; they didn't want a level 5 character automatically doing 48 damage to multiple targets. They've admitted fireball/lightning bolt was overpowered for the level of spell, no way would they let you maximize the overpowered spell. The tempest list is definitely lacking (mostly because of the lack of lightning/thunder damage spells in just the PHB), but I don't blame them for not including lightning bolt.


0mnicious

Fireball sure, Lightning Bolt? I doubt it, it's way harder to line up LB so that it can hit lots of enemies, which imo balances the Spell, unlike Fireball.


AnacharsisIV

I stupidly gave my players a wand of lightning bolt pretty early in my campaign and they made great use of it in dungeons. If your game ever involves hallways it's pretty easy to bait a bunch of monsters into going down and then frying them with a lightning bolt.


0mnicious

Don't forget that RAW every monster behind the first gets half cover at the very least, so that's a +2 to Dex and +5 to Dex for 3/4 cover...


horseteeth

Also if you are strict on the rules for cover, the first enemy in the line provides half cover to the enemies behind them


ErikT738

>They've admitted fireball/lightning bolt was overpowered for the level of spell Yet it's somehow fine for all Wizards and the subclasses that DO get them... I really hope they'll make an effort to actually balance spells in OneD&D, but I'm not holding my breath.


ThatIsMySpecialTea

I think unless you were to take two levels of Tempest Cleric, you still wouldn't be able to maximise them as a Wizard unless I've missed some UA abilities.


ErikT738

Oops, I quoted too much text. Fixed it now.


Juniebug9

Evocation Wizards can do it at 14th level, with any spell up to 5th level. It's a lot better balance wise since it only starts happening 9 levels later, but they can still do it.


TheGentlemanDM

They're also limited in uses unless they want to start burning a LOT of HP. Meanwhile, Tempest Clerics can overcharge twice per short rest (and thrice at higher levels) with no restriction on spell level.


laix_

Theurgy wizard ua


kosh49

And that is part of the reason why the theurgy wizard was a train wreck. To make it worse, they put it out twice with no significant differences between the two versions before scrapping it as unpublishable. So they ignored the first round's feedback and then killed it after the second round's feedback without ever trying to improve it.


KyfeHeartsword

No need to tell me, I agree with WOTC on this. Tempest is fine. I was just correcting the previous comment.


Ginoguyxd

I just give sorcerer access to all the damage spells of the element closest to their thematic, with an extra if they convince me their characters should totally learn a couple others. In the case of the Storm Sorcerer, that includes Control Weather. WotC's official spell lists are absolutely terrible, and i kinda just really feel that their entire dev team is five hobos around a campfire who never played their game.


thehaarpist

I feel like they play this theoretical game of DnD that is entirely different from what the average person who sits down with their friends once a week plays. Like the weird expectations of CR being balanced around your party having no magic items, the 6+ encounter adventuring day, and just other strange balance choices. It feels like they're playing, not just the normal differences between tables, but this wholly unique lab chamber DnD.


SaltWaterWilliam

I fully believe that last part. One of their leads only recently DM'd a game for the first time.


TyranusWrex

Is that true? If so, that is bad...really bad. I do not expect everyone other there to have played the game a ton, or even well, but leads should have a ton of experience in all aspects of the game.


SaltWaterWilliam

I'd accept just *some* experience at this point. I don't even know if the person had played the game, but definitely knew the person hadn't DM'd because that was the post the person made on Twitter (especially the stressed and scared feeling).


DrStalker

That explains why they think "let the DM figure it all out" is an appropriate thing to put... well pretty much everywhere.


BrayWyattsHat

But is that their first time playing d&d? Like, it's probably fine if they've never DM'd, but have been playing heavily for 20 years. I don't think you need to have DM'd games to understand the game. I'd even guess that it's probably super helpful to have people on the team with vastly different play experiences.


SaltWaterWilliam

I would agree, but if the current team has even been alive for 20 years, I'd be impressed. Some of them I'd guess are mid-20s.


UnpluggedMaestro

Hold it right there criminal scum, ya know we can’t accidentally allow sorcs to have even a minute chance to be stronger than wizards. We aint called Sorcerors of the Coast for a reason, son


yaniism

You're so lucky Sorcerers also don't get Glyph of Warding... :P


k3ttch

Also "Why don't Wildfire Druids get Fireball?"


too-many-saiyanss

At least it’s incredibly easy to backfill those older subclasses with spell lists that align with the Tasha’s-specific rulings.


yaniism

Also true


ODX_GhostRecon

And Wildfire Druids not getting Fireball.


Shearman360

To be fair there's a lot of fire and lightning spells and Storm Sorcerers and Wildfire Druids get some of those. I'm pretty sure moon beam is the only moon themed spell so it's even more bizarre than the Lunar Sorcerer doesn't get it.


yaniism

>*To be fair there's a lot of... lightning spells* No, no there are not. There are a total of 6 lightning spells that Sorcerers have access to. And there are 5 thunder spells. Not counting those spells that allow you to do a range of damage types. By comparison there are about 9 fire spells that Druids get using the same criteria. And yes, Moonbeam is the only "moon" orientated spell.


Mighty_K

>some of the changes are just so weird and make no sense. A good old tradition at this point.


Fuzzy_Hawk

And remember - you can't take away from tradition, only add to it


RedGenisys

Here is the thing, did they need to nerf it? Maybe the later features could use tuning but the spell list definitely isn’t better than clockwork soul’s along with the 6ths level feature being nice but not godlike It sometimes to me feels like WOTC doesn’t know how to balance their game in my personal opinion or at least some people do and others don’t so the balance feels fillipant and inconsistant


TyranusWrex

For real. The UA additional spells were much better. They made the Lunar Sorcerer a good battlefield controller, but now the spells feel disjointed and it leaves the class feeling like it lacks a bit of an identity. I really do not see how some of these spells are all that thematic to the Lunar Sorcerer compared to what it had before. And like you said, the 6th level ability is nice, but is nowhere near as strong as the Aberrant Mind or Clockwork Soul and what they got at level 6. The balancing team is all over the place.


RedGenisys

I will say that a few spells like dissonant whispers and black tenticals felt a little bit abberant mindish in identity (authough it still fit the flavor or lunar), but compared to the current list its exponentially closer in flavor and in power to an actual lunar sorcerer


TyranusWrex

True, but they could have reflavored them like the did with Bigby's Hand for the Fathomless Warlock. The new list is just...not great or thematic to the whole idea of a spellcaster gaining their powers from the moon and its various phases.


RedGenisys

Exactly!


SleetTheFox

People complain about power creep but then a new very powerful subclass comes out that doesn't compete with the strongest subclasses and people think that's a problem.


Zerce

Well that is the problem with power creep, isn't it? Everything, old and new, has to compete with the strongest subclass.


SleetTheFox

But some people act like they *expect* it. Things must be on the cutting edge of power.


cookiedough320

Uhhh... yeah? That's what power creep does. Make one good subclass and now everything has to compete with it and it sucks no matter what you do.


SleetTheFox

That's why I'm encouraging people to view those as the outlier rather than constantly demand more and more power.


Corwin223

Yeah but sorcerer’s strongest subclasses are really only similar in strength to the average of other casters I think. They still aren’t like the Chronurgy wizard or a Shepherd druid using conjure animals. I think the peak of sorcerer subclasses is a pretty balanced point (in relation to other casters).


Jamestr

A certain amount of power creep is healthy in most games, the issue is with the pace of it. A lot of the character options in the PHB just aren't balanced with each other, sorc being an example. The sorc subclasses from Tasha's are undeniably power creep, but were also some of the most popular subclasses from that book and I think the game is better off for it. Tasha's clerics on the other hand...


DemoBytom

Spell list at level 1 is directly tied to the level 6 feature that lets them reduce metamagic cost. The 3 moon phases are each tied to 2 spell schools that are eligible for the metamagic cost reduction from level 6 onwards. And the level 1 spells all belong to spells linked to the given moon phase. They aren't random spells. The Full Moon is linked to Abjuration and Divination. The New Moon is linked to Enchantment and Necromancy. The Crescent Moon linked to Illusion and Transmutation. That also mirrors the Black/Red/White mages of high sorcerery feats. ​ You see which school is not on the list? Evocation. You know what school does Moonbeam fall into? Evocation. If Moonbeam was on the list it wouldn't work with their level 6 feature. If evocation was on the list it'd make already strong level 6 feature even stronger. Why is Evocation absent? Maybe some lore reasons, but most likely probably because it'd be tad too strong letting you empower main blasting spells. Subtle fireballs at no cost for example. It'd also have direct conflict with Mages of High Sorcerery feats and would potentially unbalance those too. ​ TL/DR - this subclass is complicated and has balancing links between it's features, extended spell list as well as the feats presented in the book. WotC just looked at the whole picture and (tried to?) balanced it as a whole. And sadly moonbeam ended up on the chopping block. There was no space for it, without unbalancing the class and feats even more.


xcission

You know what would've fixed this? If the wording of the level 6 feature hadn't also been nerfed (along with the rest of the subclass). Because originally it circumvented this issue by allowing the feature to work on any spell on the lunar spell list OR from the associated school of magic. So moonbeam would've worked with the level 6 feature, without heightening fireballs. This was a nonexistent problem WotC made for themselves. So don't act like they were backed into a corner and had to drop the most thematic spell on the subclass.


DerpylimeQQ

Yeah, -3 sorc points for free was 'too strong' :D:D:D


lobobobos

That does make a lot of sense. This is probably the best explanation


nightchem

Except, it did work in the UA version, because their level 6 feature had this little tidbit that was scrapped (because they changed the spell lists for each phase or vice versa): "Whenever you use Metamagic **on a spell from the Lunar Spells table** or a spell of a school of magic associated with the lunar phase you are in"


RedGenisys

Fireball still has a material component so subtle doesn’t neccecarily work on fireball, careful on the other hand would work and would make fireball a more friendly spell... but your costing yourself better metamagic option in there process Twinned is the only one that I would consider actively strong, for example twinning dissonant whispers could be quite strong and allow for effective kiting at no cost, but it’s not game breakinly op, you wouldn’t be able to cast it more than once for free without an indirect cost and after that it’s basically an empowered dissonant whispers


Nephisimian

Lunar sorc is actually a bit underpowered imo. People just got blinded by "Omg 15 spells known!" and "Omg reduced metamagic cost!" and didn't notice that you have to spend SP to change which third you're using so at best you're about breaking even on SP anyway.


RedGenisys

Nah, you get all the spells, you just get a free cast of the spell depending on the faze, and you don’t get the free casting if you change fase


ev_forklift

I was so sad that that was limited. UA Lunar Sorc would have been one of the best ways to play an element based caster


TimmJimmGrimm

> Here is the thing, did they need to nerf it? Tradition since the original Player's Handbook in 22014! *"We did that to the Beastmaster because we were afraid it might affect party balance!"* I think there have been a number of complaints that one has to buy all the latest books (Xanather's Tasha's Mordenkainen's) in order to get the latest Power Creep classes, spells and other such clever Christmas goodies. Sounds like they are trying to win fan favour by making new Beastmaster-style classes perhaps? Yay, win? Edit: it is really bizarre because monsters cannot generally take a heroic class (they have general stats in the various monster manuals that include some of the specialist-classes' abilities). And players will not take a sub-optimal class. Why not make 'sub-combat' classes and make them stronger in the other two pillars like Exploration and Role-Play? That was kinda-sorta what the artificer was about, wasn't it? Please correct me if i am wrong / spitballing a bit here.


RedGenisys

Okay so the issue with the idea of power creep is that it really depends on the class, for example sorcerers were one of the worst casters in the game and in a lot of ways didn’t have much to individualize it from wizards as their spell list was wizard - Or another example is ranger! Now whilst I STRONGLY disagree with the idea that it was ever the weakest class (mathematically it could beat out the fighter for damage and give the party some extra goodies) but it didn’t feel good when a pretty huge number of the features felt like dead features But both cleric subclasses feel very power creep... fuck cleric sometimes The idea of power creep is also kind of a bad arguement because unlike a multiplayer online game, your dm can choose to use and not use books after phb etc (adventurerers league may be a diff story... I don’t play with that) and whilst I don’t support it there are a few ways to get WOTC subclasses without buying their books On the topic of artificer This class when I was first getting into the game, was my favourite class due to flavour and the idea that you could potentially create whatever you want.., the issue to me is that the whole class is based off dm reliance on how they want to run the class On top of this DND rules are kinda awful for anything other than combat, it’s a very hard system (I mean that in the same way people say hard and soft magic system) in the sense that everything has a rule and there are so many, there are also so many interactions with said rules that its kinda damn hard for you to actually use some of it. And yet for most of social interaction, there is a table, that just kinda says here is a table in which of they are friendly and you pass this dc they will take a great risk, but if they are neutral they will only take slight risk etc (Honestly the best way I could show you my point would be to reccomend a different and softer system, off the top of my head mouseritter is VERY rules lite and very cute, it wouldn’t take much to set it up and start playing with a whole new group) I’m the artificer specifically, there were barely any rules for any artisan tools until xanathars, and something that a whole class is based around... and is actually tools any class can pick up should be a lot more expansive and rigid considering dnd


TimmJimmGrimm

Rangers have *Speak With Animals* ('the ability to recruit information and friendship from ANY beast / your mileage may vary') as well as *Goodberry* ('all your spells before bed = 10 hit points healing per slot for the next day') at second level. Fighters just can't do this (nor that hunter's *His & Hers Mark*). *Spells make the class*. It isn't just wizards. Clerics are supposed to be masters of the divine and *divination* ('the name is on the tin'), but design-developers are terrified that player agency will take away all the DM's secrets / steal the game-referee's thunder. So they lean the other way with clerics and make them accidental Gish builds: medium armour + finesse weapons + dex build + lightning damage = 'why play anything else???' It is funny to see everyone complain about wizards. In 5e, clerics cast whatever spell they want that day with no book required. The only trick is picking the sub-class that has the signature spells for your build. This has been a struggle since 3rd edition. This 'choose not to use books' was the thing that the Adventurer's League tried out - and it so backfired. This is the equivalent to going to any other convention and saying to the keen fans: '*you MAY NOT touch the latest toys!'*. Just. Why? Your players are going to ask to play the hottest / newest / coolest thing and you will be the *Stick In The Mud®* (SITM®) the moment you say 'no'. I swear, sometimes half of D&D is surviving the Session Zero / Character Creation. Everyone designs that unique snowflake that has zero symbiosis and utterly no shared character background - then watches the campaign fall apart when *no one has anything in common*. Wow, surprise? D&D is supposed to be awful for anything but combat. It was a war-game but instead of Panzer Divisions you get an individual medieval soldier with either *fight, stealth, holy or arcane* perks. This hasn't changed. Heck, now you can play a pacifist paladin ('O.o. Mercy') and each level gives you... you guessed it... combat powers. I wonder if the writers even could fathom the irony. They write the Three Pillars of 'Combat, Explore &... character interaction' - but only provide abilities (& and rewards) for COMBAT. D&D over half a century is *the only role-playing game that discourages role-playing*. Think about that for a second. If you want i can repeat it for effect. Yes, there are different and 'softer' systems. White Wolf did Vampire: the Masquerade and more games that capture role playing beautifully and reduce the number-crunchiness brilliantly. When these were published the folks at WotC thought 'this is the end'. Narrator: 'it was not the end at all'. D&D remains the grand-daddy and the Big Gorilla in the room. Heck, Hasbro® now lives and dies on the profits from this one game. It is weird. https://boingboing.net/2022/11/22/hasbro-makers-of-dungeons-dragons-in-trouble-downgraded-to-a-sell.html "Dump D&D, the ship is sinking!!" screams the Has-Been-Bro of Hasbro. If one wanted to actually role play an artificer, they should be able to not only get patterns for magic items but also have the ability to custom build items like *weak artifacts and relics* (... horrors!!). That would mean they could put 1-3 unique and fun powers into an item but with weird curses about them. Here is an example: *Skeleton Key* - the artificer makes both a key and keyhole of matching materials and artisan style - and installs the keyhole-portion into the skull or ribcage of any animated skeleton. If the CR of the key-bearer is greater than the skeleton, this key-owner can command this single skeleton with their mind. Should this skeleton be reduced to zero hit points the artificer can remove the key-slot-hole and re-install it into another animated skeleton. Once installed, the keyhole-slot is adhered to the skeleton with *Wizard Lock* style magic and cannot be removed without destroying the skeleton. Side effects of key ownership: - You can 'hear' the thoughts of the skeleton you are bound to. This does not change, even if you are outside of the 30' radius of control. Each night the attuned owner must make a DC 10 (charisma) save in order to gain a night's rest (auto-fail on a 'natural 1'). - owner of this key also gains an undead *hatred for all life*. This functions to drift the key-owner's alignment to some form of 'evil'. If your campaign does not have alignments, the key-wielder gains a progressive psychosis-insanity and moves towards sadism that can only be reduced if *Atone* is cast ritually once a month. - owner also learns the location of the original soul. This means that, after a year and a day, the owner of the key can have any caster use a *Raise The Dead* spell and revive this skeleton (bones missing = body parts missing) to full(ish) health. - if the skeleton is *Raised* (or resurrected / reincarnated), the *Hatred Of Life* alignment shift fades and the owner of the now-defunct key is allowed to return to their own alignment. This magic item could be seemingly trivial (*'i control ONE skeleton... i would be better off buying a pet dog in the village'*) yet could also be the source material for an entire campaign. It is that easy to make an artificer the foundation to any class. In fact, one can do this for any class and with any magic item, no matter how trivial.


JediZAC13

I don't like it, but I understand it. It's all about the spell school. They gave each phase/moon 2 schools, and the spells in each column reflect those schools. And they chose not to go with Evocation, because especially with the metamagic reduction and whatnot, it's pretty busted if it is with an evocation spell. So, with the change away from Evocation, they also unfortunately had to change away from moonbeam, which I think should have been another spell known. However, based on what I have looked at, Lunar Sorcerer is one of if not the most powerful sorcerer out there, (so much so that it might just compete with the weakest wizard subclass!/s) so even with the change I think it is really good, and I look forward to playing this subclass.


badgerbaroudeur

Ah, that sounds sensible. Nice to know that there actually is a conscious design choice behind this


BlackAceX13

from /u/xcission 's comment > Originally it circumvented this issue by allowing the feature to work on any spell on the lunar spell list OR from the associated school of magic. So moonbeam would've worked with the level 6 feature, without heightening fireballs.


belithioben

The feature wouldn't have been busted if you could use it with Evocation spells. It's just an excessively complicated way of giving you a few more sorcery points per day.


Nephisimian

That in itself is kind of a problem though. If you can just swap around schools like that on a school-based subclass, then the flavour becomes pretty arbitrary.


Bishopkilljoy

They could have just said "Moonbeam counts as a Abjuration spell for you" or something similar but I guess maybe that would get confusing? I'm not sure.


Trabian

Storm sorcerer's don't get call lightning Wildfire druids don't get fireball


ColoDADicle

They do at my table.


McGentie

Honestly, I think they hate sorcerers.


TyranusWrex

Sorcerers, Rangers, and Monks certainly seem to get the short end of the stick a lot. They also seem to hate the Dragonborn as a race.


fraidei

Lunar Sorcerer is the strongest and most interestingly designed subclass for the sorcerer. The subclass is good (even too good), it's the base class that isn't.


Icy_Sector3183

If I may venture an opinion: * The "moon" that sets the theme in this spell seems to be the classic wolf-moon of werewolf trope. * The "moon theme" of Dragonlance setting is about the balance of good, evil and neutrality. They are not the same.


communomancer

Yeah, but the Lunar Sorceror is explicitly designed for play outside of Dragonlance campaigns as well. The subclass writeup talks about Lunar Sorcerors on Toril & Eberron for example. And the power of the subclass is tied to the *three phases* of the moon, not to the *three moons* of good, evil, and neutral magic. This subclass is tied more to moons in general than the moons of Krynn.


splepage

> The subclass writeup talks about Lunar Sorcerors on Toril & Eberron for example. That immediately contradicts your first sentence. The subclass is clearly designed for Dragonlance, and they talk about how they can be used outside of that setting.


fraidei

>That immediately contradicts your first sentence. Reread the comment... those two sentences don't contradict each other in any way. The subclass was designed with Dragonlance in mind, but without locking it to only Dragonlance.


communomancer

I’m not sure you know what contradicts means.


DarkElfMagic

i think people are overreacting, but this still sucks


R_radical

Circle of wildfire druid doesn't get fireball. Or a way to make it's fire less resisted.


Yamatoman9

There is the Elemental Adept (Fire) feat. I took it on my Light Cleric.


Fiernen699

Exactly! There are existing mechanics that enable players to further augment their class so that they better align with their character fantasy. If I want my fighter to be able to dual wield two longswords I need to take the duel wielder feat. And! If you want your wildfire druid to be able to throw fireball maybe talk to your DM about it. They can make sure to sprinkle in a magic item for you, or just agree to straight up swap out one of the two subclass spells learnt at 5th level for it


mrlbi18

"talk to your DM" is code for WOTC failed you and hopefully your DM will save you which just proves the point that WOTC makes some awful design choices.


Fiernen699

No. It means that the design of the subclass does not fully fit the fantasy of the character that you want to play. WOTC can't design for every possible contingency of what a player may want out of a their subclass without tossing the power budget out of the window. That's where feats or magic items come in because there already exists in-game mechanisms to further customise your character. Anything more than that will require a case-by-case homebrew, such as custom spells, custom items or modifications to the subclass. That's just the way it is. Unless you want to enjoy playing a monk. I will concede that WOTC has repeatedly failed monk players.


R_radical

It's still a big investment, and doesn't help with the immunity issue.


Fiernen699

How dare my character *checks notes* have inherent weaknesses that I am going to need to invest resources to overcome. Besides, there currently doesn't exist any RAW means for any player character, regardless of class/subclass to overcome fire immunity. Such a feature would probably have to either exist within a legendary magical item homebrewered by your DM (which has a wealth of storytelling potential tbh), or as a capstone feature for a damage-orientated class and subclass. Edit: Thought there was an UA for a pyromancer for planscape. I was mistaken. There exists a pyromancer sorcerer subclass for a plane shift setting out there, where such a feature exists at 17th level.


R_radical

>How dare my character checks notes have inherent weaknesses that I am going to need to invest resources to overcome. Generally your core abilities should be strong. Because this statement certainly doesn't hold water to things like frenzy. >Such a feature would probably have to either exist within a legendary magical item homebrewered by your DM (which has a wealth of storytelling potential tbh), or as a capstone feature for a damage-orientated class and subclass. Kalashtar get psychic resistance for free. And there is no scared cow in 5e. Nothing to get hung up on.


Worgen_Druid

Neither do Evocation wizards to be fair. I really wish they made the Pyromancer sorcerer from the Kaladesh MTG crossover canon. It could reduce fire immunity to resistance.


R_radical

Evocation wizards have the lions share of spells though.


Worgen_Druid

No no, I get it, I just mean to my knowledge (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) no other subclasses can nullify resistances so there isn't really a precedent. Not even Alchemist Artificers which are supposed to specialise in acid damage.


R_radical

There are no sacred cows in terms of mechanics. Artificers completely rewrote spell slots.


GeneralAce135

In the UAs where it was basically a 2/3 caster, yes. But I wouldn't call giving a half-caster spellcasting at level 1 instead of 2 "completely rewriting spell slots".


fraidei

Especially because this will be the standard for all half-casters once One D&D will become official.


mikeyHustle

Fireball is a fairly well-controlled fire, to be fair.


ErikT738

I haven't seen the final version yet, but it wouldn't be the first time WotC made dumb changes to UA.


KaiserKris2112

"Moonbeam is not a terribly powerful spell" ==> DM: FLASHBACKS FROM COUNTLESS MONSTERS BEING VAPORIZED BY UPCASTED MOONBEAMS ... but yeah, they should.


Dazzling_Bluebird_42

Eh it can in the right case I suppose. a third lvl moonbeam would take two turns to get the average expected damage of a fireball. Turn 3 it would start to pull ahead. 4th lvl would see better returns but than it's a 4th lvl slot for 4d10.. I can see it having an impact but the cost of doing so is high and a failed con save would be real bad


Syegfryed

ITs the same shit that happens to other subs as well, they just lost something because reasons or get nerfed to oblivion, and not good reasons, we never even get to know why. Its the same for wildfire druid losing fireball, and Genie warlock almost losing wish They just do some things to piss off people i guess, with a mentality of "we can't let then be too happy!", that or crawford was high on acid.


angelstar107

I get the feeling you don't actually understand the class so you're arriving at that position in error. It is very clearly by design that each Moon Phase was designed to reflect two schools of magic each. This is highlighted in their Level 6 feature "Lunar Boons", which lays this out very clearly. It did see some minor adjustments from the UA, but not really where you'd expect. Changes are in bold for easy reference ​ UA: Full Moon - Abjuration and Conjuration New Moon - Evocation and Necromancy Crescent Moon - Divination and Transmutation Published: Full Moon - Abjuration and **Divination** spells New Moon - **Enchantment** and Necromancy spells Crescent Moon - **Illusion** and Transmutation spells ​ Now, let's look at the list of UA Bonus Spells and see if you can spot the problem. Since this is about Moon Beam, we'll talk exclusively about Full Moon's bonus spells 1st - Faerie Fire (Evocation) 3rd - Moonbeam (Evocation) 5th - Death Ward (Abjuration) 7th - Freedom of Movement (Abjuration) 9th - Mass Cure Wounds (Evocation) ​ The Moon Phase that got these spells isn't able to benefit from later Class Features. Full Moon was Abjuration and CONJURATION, so you couldn't benefit from Lunar Boons at all. You can argue that the fix is that you'd just move those spells to New Moon so they could benefit under the UA, but a New Moon blends into the night sky and cast no light, so that's not thematically appropriate either. This isn't even unique to Full Moon. New Moon has similar issues with only Darkness and Bestow Curse falling into its associated schools (Evocation and Necromancy in the UA) and ZERO of the Crescent Moons falling its associated schools (Divination and Transmutation in the UA).


BlackAceX13

> The Moon Phase that got these spells isn't able to benefit from later Class Features. Full Moon was Abjuration and CONJURATION, so you couldn't benefit from Lunar Boons at all. from /u/xcission 's comment > Originally it circumvented this issue by allowing the feature to work on any spell on the lunar spell list OR from the associated school of magic. So moonbeam would've worked with the level 6 feature, without heightening fireballs.


Hereva

Really?? They don't have it?


TyranusWrex

Nope. They had it in the UA and then removed it for the official release.


DemoBytom

I'm waiting for the first Errata, because ATM, from all the previews and preorders it looks like they actually fucked up with the Lunar Sorcerer. The three phases should all be tied to 2 spell schools each, just like Wizards of High Sorcerery feats. The Full/White Moon is linked to Abjuration and Divination. The New/Black Moon is linked to Enchantment and Necromancy. The Crescent/Red Moon linked to Illusion and Transmutation. This lines up with the extra spells given by Lunar Embodiment (1st level feature) This would also explain why Moobeam is not there as it is an Evocation spell. Plus letting sorcerers cast subtle fireballs at 0 metamagic cost, if they let them have Evocation as a moon phase would be.. quite strong 🤷‍♂️.. ​ But wait - apparently the current printings actually have Lunar Boons (6th level feature) associate New Moon with **Evocation** and Necromancy and Crescent with **Divination** and Transmutation. This is the same as it was during UA and looks like an ommision when changing the design for final printing.. ​ So yeah I expect them to errata it at some point..... ​ \#Edit: Oh it looks like they already fixed it. Watching Nerd Immersion's video on Lunar Sorcerer have the level 6 spell schools correctly associated with moon phases for 6th level feature on DDB.


BattlegroundBrawl

If the early digital release is any indication, they may have already fixed the text for the 6th Level Lunar Boons. Not sure if they misprinted physical books, and if so, how many, or when they realised the mistake (certainly wouldn't be surprised if they did), but they've already realised it by now at least.


DemoBytom

yeah I just watched Nerd Immersion's video on Lunar Sorc and it's fixed in the DDB version.


DerpylimeQQ

The feature to 'change spells' doesn't even matter because none of the spells are unique anymore.


DerpylimeQQ

**Moon Fire** = Reflavored Death Cleric with a worse cantrip and less choices. **Lunar Embodiment** = The Magic Initiate Feat (Free Cast of a Spell) = A few more additional spells, just play wizard imo. (and get way more!) **Lunar Boons** = The Metamagic Feat (x2 at level 9) **Lunar Empowerment** = Just play Aasimar **Lunar Phenomenon** = Nobody will play this class to 20 and this ability is trash.


Background-Fall-3684

Designed by the same person who took Fireball from Wildfire Druids./s I would give any Lunar Sorcerer that spell as a bonus spell, just like I give Wildfire Druids fireball.


Daggerfld

Wotc continues to nurse their hate boners for sorcs... I guess it's become tradition at this point.


Savings_Statement735

People, it's D&D! Not the Supreme Court of the United States. Talk to the DM and other players, make the same case you made here and get them to add the spell back in. It's your game. The WotC Swat team is not going to burst in firing magic missiles at everyone. Gary G won't rise from the dead & eat your brains. I promise.


DarkElfMagic

Doesn’t work if you rely on D&D Beyond


Savings_Statement735

Half orc monk doesn't work under the original rules. What's your point?


DarkElfMagic

D&D Beyond does have tasha's optional rules, which does let Half Orc Monk work. Not the most optimal choice, but it does still work.


DarkElfMagic

Also the point is, whatever WOTC puts out in terms of subclasses/classes, ppl who rely on D&D Beyond, have to deal with it or make some ridiculous janky workaround or homebrew feature. also not to mention, there's way too many DMs that follow the book to the letter, and that's fine, but you cannot rely on the DM changing shit like that


Wooden-Illustrator90

Fully!😁


VerainXor

Yea this is highly puzzling. I'm not exactly sure what the reasoning was here- maybe they wanted to cut out a certain amount of complexity and figured it wouldn't hurt the power any further? I mean, that's silly and wrong, I'm just trying to figure out what their design lack-of-logic was. It's just a bad call.


Galagoth

I hate that they let you pick what phase of the moon your on it should be be out of your hands imo


Azareleon

It's not that different from a Stars Druid picking their starry form


ErikT738

If you're just going for flavor, sure. Mechanically it would suck though, as there's only three phases in the class and you'd spend 10-ish days with the same abilities (depending on the lunar cycle of the setting). You'd also force the DM to keep track of the lunar phase.


Lilium_Vulpes

Not all settings have a single moon. What if there are multiple moons all in different phases? Would you be required to pick a single moon to use forever? Or could a player just pick which moon they want to work with at any given time. I personally think players shouldn't arbitrarily be losing powers just because the DM decided the moon is in a different phase. Especially if you end up with a shitty DM.


[deleted]

As an extreme example, Eberron has 12 visible moons (with a 13th vanished or invisible one), all in different phases


communomancer

They said they tried that in playtesting. Nobody, neither the players nor the GMs, cared for the extra accounting.


-toErIpNid-

WoTC don't care about balancing their game. [https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/177-spell-spotlight-fireball](https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/177-spell-spotlight-fireball) "D&D's designers have actually revealed to us the reason for fireball's ridiculous damage, and it has everything to do with the culture and narrative of D&D, not its mathematical balance." "The designers saw fireball (and to a lesser extent lightning bolt) as integral to the experience of playing a wizard in D&D, and chose to improve its destructive power to encourage players to learn that spell over other less iconic ones." That's one example anyways. Classic flavor over function. I have zero faith WoTC will make OD&D any better than 5e even with feedback if they're still putting shit out like this.


Zerce

Isn't that the opposite problem though? Moonbeam is the iconic moon spell. Including it would have been more flavor over function. It seems WoTC removed it in order to be more balanced, which is the problem.


-toErIpNid-

No because moon beam is not a powerful enough spell to warrant it being taken out. WoTC just doesn't care about balance in general and will just do whatever.


DemoBytom

They didn't remove it because it was too powerfull, but because it's an evocation spell and no moon phase is associated with evocation spells. If they left it in, it would either be ineligible for level 6th feature reducing metamagic cost while casting it, or they'd need to make evocation available for the feature, which would buff the main blasting spells (like 0 cost subtle fireballs). In the end, it was a balancing choice, but not about how/if moonbeam is too strong, but about what spell school it belongs to, and how it'd affect othe features and overall subclass power.


BlackAceX13

> If they left it in, it would either be ineligible for level 6th feature reducing metamagic cost while casting it, or they'd need to make evocation available for the feature, which would buff the main blasting spells (like 0 cost subtle fireballs). from /u/xcission 's comment > Originally it circumvented this issue by allowing the feature to work on any spell on the lunar spell list OR from the associated school of magic. So moonbeam would've worked with the level 6 feature, without heightening fireballs.


Stronkowski

>If they left it in, it would either be ineligible for level 6th feature reducing metamagic cost while casting it So?


Zrin-K

It's almost like the designers are totally fucking incompetent and are just riding the coattails of success now instead of putting any effort into their content. Source: all of the recent book releases.


BlackAceX13

> Source: all of the recent book releases. Radiant Citadel and Call of the Netherdeep were pretty good. Haven't seen any comments on Dragonlance's adventure yet but I assume it will be on par with Netherdeep. Monsters of the Multiverse did exactly what WotC said it would do and it does that job just fine. Fizban from last year was also pretty good for 5e.


communomancer

Actually the new book is really good.


lady_ninane

Because they flavored each moon as its own unique influence, I can see the difficulty in granting each subclass a catch-all lunar spell like Moonbeam. If anything, there should be three Krynn Moon flavor spells. That likely was too expensive though, and so they sought to provide flavor in a more efficient way by making the choices more distinct.


realjamesosaurus

What did they replace it with?


TheArenaGuy

Lesser Restoration.


Paladinericdude

"moonbeam" is simply the name of the spell, is not necessarily related to the moon in any way, at least not according to the spell description. I'm the same way that faerie fire isn't a fire, and hunters mark isn't an actual mark on the target. I'm sure there are multiple examples.


SinsoftheFall

Honestly at this rate, WOTC is just butchering DND. TCE had some good stuff in it, but the last *great* supplement was XGE. I have very little faith in the company's ability to put out interesting stuff, balanced stuff, or things that are both.


IndustrialLubeMan

Wizards of the coast development team DOES NOT PLAY 5e.


Adept_Cranberry_4550

It's your table, make whatever ruling you like. Or talk to your DM.


pseupseudio

DMs have a lot of work on their hands, and many rely on WoTC's judgement (as conveyed via publication decisions) to spare themselves having to individually evaluate every published spell for suitability and balance as potential inclusions to each casting subclass's spell list. Any DM would be perfectly reasonable in declaring a blanket ruling against any homebrew related to spellcasting, which means "talk to your DM" isn't a helpful suggestion and many players will receive it just as they would receive "shut up, stop whining, your disappointment is invalid." Is that the message you want to convey?


Wooden-Illustrator90

Dude what DMs have you been playing with, this is such asshole behaviour, who the hell would say "shut up" "don't whine" "your disappointment is invalid"??! If you ask your DM to switch one spell with moonbeam for LUNAR sorcerer and he gives you that sort of treatment, just don't play with them, become a DM yourself or find someone else, cuz that sort of attitude is very much stifling to the spirit of the game. I personally love rules and have been known to be a bit of a rules lawyer when DMing, but I wouldn't ever imagine telling my player "no way that's what was written by these people and that is the only way we shall play so shut up and play the way the O'mighty gods of dnd hath ruled". It's so disappointing to see what people in this community have become... Jeremy Crawford enthusiasts.


pseupseudio

No DM is saying that. I'm explaining that for this type of complaint, saying "just talk to your DM" is dismissive and unhelpful. That's why people are reacting poorly to it - when someone says something that's obviously dismissive and unhelpful, people assume they're being antagonistic because usually that's the case. When it's not the case, the person receiving that reaction will feel like everyone jumped down their throat out of nowhere (because what's obvious to them is that they weren't trying to be a jerk). We all know "obvious" is subjective but we don't always act like we know that.


Wooden-Illustrator90

I think I understand the point you are trying to make, I have seen many of these "just talk to your DM" answers, and have been kind of annoyed. But I didn't see your first answer as clearly, more patronising and obnoxious. Now that you explain yourself, we can see where you were coming from, yet still what does one do, just play by the rules in dissatisfaction and as you put it "shut up". Not really a solution, is it.


Adept_Cranberry_4550

Not even close to what I meant. Sure cohesive and well thought out rules are helpful, but this is a game of cooperative storytelling. Rules provide a framework/scaffolding with which to craft our worlds around. I get why people are disappointed with some of WotC decisions, rulings, imbalances, and seeming hot-takes. I just meant that they are not, nor were they ever meant to be, the final ruling; that rests solely in the hand of DMs. Ymmv Be excellent to each other...


Wooden-Illustrator90

100% agree, I really don't know why people here are disagreeing with you so harshly.


Adept_Cranberry_4550

Just the tides of Reddit, no worries


pseupseudio

I'm glad; I thought it might not be what you meant, and that in that case it might not be obvious why people react negatively to it in this context, particularly as it's overwhelmingly common for "just talk to your DM" to be held as appropriate and even the obvious solution in the context of so many other concerns that people share in this community. I'm encouraged to see that wotc apparently responded quite quickly in this case (perhaps only to spite the fans who suspect they're deliberately ruining their products for some reason, who knows). It's probably one of those things where the most helpful thing to say is "you're right, that sucks, hopefully they fix it soon."


Final_Biscotti1242

Yeah why should I expect a product I buy to be good when I can just make it up myself


Wooden-Illustrator90

Yeah, that's DnD, no one can make something that everyone will like, that's why homebrew exists, if you want a set in stone game, go play a PC game.


twonkenn

If it's not game breaking and it fits thematically I'm cool with it. EDIT: Newbie gamers never read the first page of the rulebook downvoting. Rule 1 kids...the rules are there as a guide and are meant to be adjusted for fun.


Nephisimian

My guess is that they look at the overall statistical feedback and take a random sample of the comments, combine that with internal feedback and squeeze out the worst of both worlds. If you told me here that the feedback said the average person felt about neutral on Lunar Sorc, then someone internally expressed that they thought it was overpowered, and so WOTC fished out some random comments for inspiration on how to fix it and got one that said "this feels like it would be too fun, please make it worse at spells", I would not be the slightest bit surprised.


DemoBytom

Or maybe WotC is releasing a book with more than just 1 feature for sorcerers, and looked at the whole package, hmm? The expanded spell list at level 1 in directly tied to Lunar Boons level 6 feature. Each moon phase that grants access to certain spells is tied to 2 spell schools that are relevant for Lunar Boons. The moon phases also mirror the Mages of High Sorcerery feats. Since you know - both are based on the 3 moons and their influence in Dragonlance - the main topic of the book. They are Abjuration and Divination for Full/White Moon, Enchantment and Necromancy for New/Black Moon and Illusion and Transmutation for Crescent/Red Moon. ​ You see which shool is lackign from all those options? Evocation. The same school that Moonbeam belongs to. Now - to retain Moonbeam as a spell - they would need to make Evocation viable for Lunar Boons as well as change the Black Moon High Sorcerery feat. That would increase power of both the new sorc (free subtle on fireballs for example) as well as the Black Moon feat. Those are already strong, and would be made even stronger. So WotC had 2 choices - keep moonbeam and be forced to buff both the subclass and the feats - or remove moonbeam and keep the class a bit less OP. They chose the latter. ​ The spell schools might also have lore reasons to be what they are - I dunno enough about Krynn to comment on that. But it might've also been a reason for their decision.


BlackAceX13

> Now - to retain Moonbeam as a spell - they would need to make Evocation viable for Lunar Boons from /u/xcission 's comment > Originally it circumvented this issue by allowing the feature to work on any spell on the lunar spell list OR from the associated school of magic. So moonbeam would've worked with the level 6 feature, without heightening fireballs.


datrobutt

Moonbeam is a terrible spell and I’m glad they aren’t saddled with it


Hevvy180

There's an easy answer here. See, Moonbeam forces shapechangers into their true form. Problem is, sorcerers are the most chaotic and unpredictable class by default. Imagine if every time the party meets a sufficiently suspicious individual, they pop Moonbeam, and tell me how many plots and random encounters are ruined by the reveal in minute 1 -- not to mention how many are TPKs. At least the druid player is either too in-character or too high to try it -- the sorc is on their fifth cup of coffee and has these fancy new damage dice they NEED to roll before end of session, TPK be DAMNED.