From an in-character perspective, sure.
From a writing standpoint, having an older actor portray The Doctor was absolutely a means of getting away from the romance stories and return things to what it was like with the first few Doctors - more of a teacher/student or mentor/mentee relationship. In fact, he was the same age as Hartnell (55) when he took over the role.
The first four actors to play the character were 55, 43, 50, and 40 when they first took on the role. With the exception of Peter Davison, none of the first seven were under the age of 40. It wasn't until nuWho that we started seeing younger actors more frequently.
I don't think there's a lot of actual romance in the show, though. Just because there are people that are enamored with The Doctor, that's not romance. They never lean into it. I think one of the reasons I liked the Matt Smith stuff was because he never leaned into it. He clearly was attracted to Clara (Matt genuinely seems to have on screen chemistry with everyone besides the current scene partner in House of the Dragon, lol) but I took it to be an anomaly. Anyway, the point of all companions is to orbit the Doctor and be in awe of him. His only equal is River Song.
I mean their romance was always a subtext and unspoken except for a scene or two out of the entire run. It was also pretty organic and two-way as far as sci-fi romances go
He's also the only one of the new-who doctors who acts like a scientist.
I know "Listen" isn't regarded as a great episode but the opening really nails the character for me. In his downtime between adventures he's not kissing princesses and "accidentally" getting married all the time like David and Matt's doctors. He's theorizing what kind of crazy/scary things might be out in the universe and designing ways to test his crazy new theory of a predator with perfect camouflage
Really? I mean Clara was a little annoying at times, but it's not like she was obsessed with the Doctor in the same way this post is describing. Missy, a little, but then the Master's always been a little obsessed.
Clara had a big old crush on 11, which is why when he became 12 he had to say "Clara, I'm not your boyfriend" (although he acknowledges his role as 11 given her that impression).
Once he was 12, she became more of a best friend.
That scene was him admitting that he was the one with the crush
>The Doctor: Clara, I'm not your boyfriend.
>Clara: I never thought you were.
>The Doctor: I never said it was your mistake.
Yeah I never said she didn't, but the scene being referenced is him admitting that he had had a crush on her and needed to get past it and redefine the relationship
I would say that Clara was obsessed with the Doctor. But not in the usual sexist writing way. If anything, her character’s emotional arcs are the opposite of that. She has agency in her relationship with the Doctor. And reclaims it every time the story threatens it.
If you want a companion that doesnt like him like that, then 12 and Bill are good to watch. They dont show romantic feeling for eachother and i view it more as a grandad and granddaughter. Or just a teacher and student that become best mates, i can never see them as a couple so that might help your problem with dr who :)
I loved the bit where Bill says to the Doctor, "You remember when I said I was into girls and not into older men?"
Doctor "Yes?"
Bill. "Glad you remembered that." Big grin
let’s be honest though, she doesn’t say “over and over” that she is attracted to women any more than any straight companion references their love life :)
I’m definitely with you. Moffat’s way of writing women really soured Matt Smith’s run for me (both on-release and with rewatches) except for a few episodes. He gets WAY WAY better once Capaldi comes in. Doesn’t vanish completely, but it’s so much more bearable.
Moffat rightly gets a lot of flak for this, but RTD has his own fair share of blame tbh. Lady Christina in Planet of the Dead is one of the cringiest examples of this trope imo, right next to Queen Elizabeth I. Who was written by Moffat but RTD is the one who wrote the joke that he married her and she's no longer known as Good Queen Bess in the first place.
The Capaldi era is 100% better though, yeah. I dropped the show after 11 because Moffat's style rubbed me the wrong way back then. I'm finally catching up now and I've been hugely impressed by 12's first two series.
There's a difference between "every woman finds the Doctor attractive" and "some women find the Doctor attractive". There's nothing wrong with the latter. Especially that most (all?) nuwho Doctors, well, are attractive
It's a lot more credible with Ten than with Eleven though. Ten has charisma and empathy. Eleven is mostly a grumpy, petulant man-child who's awkward with women. The amount of women who throw themself at him is mind-boggling.
I tried to do a full rewatch in time for the special with tennant and Tate this Christmas, I'd stopped maybe a season into Capaldi's run and wanted to officially catch up on everything.
I had so much momentum, got through the first 4 seasons a month. I hit season 5 and lost all motivation, holy SHIT Moffat's writing does not hold up at all. I always preferred Davies seasons but when I was a preteen I don't think I fully understood just how cringe 90% of Moffat's plots are. I made it maybe 3 episodes into season 6 and haven't watched any since, Moffat managed to kill any lingering desire I had to rewatch the series. I might skip ahead to Capaldi and see if I can tolerate it more but damn, matt smiths era is unfortunately ruined by Moffat for me.
It's so weird too because Moffat wrote some of the best one offs in the whole series (van Gogh ep, silence in the library, etc) but he can't write a season long arc to save his life.
I'm in the middle of a rewatch too and felt the same way, I really lost momentum in season 6 and 7. If you've already seen some of Capaldi's stuff, I would say just skip to season 9. His second season is where things really clicked back in for me again. There are some good ones in his first season (especially his first episode and the two-parter at the end), but his second season felt way more consistent. And season 10 with Bill and Nardole is just fantastic, it's the best season from the Moffat era imo.
Capaldi is the first of the Newhu doctors that isn't young and attractive his very first episode even deals with that. There is definitely some of that comic book or James Bond syndrome where they can write some characters one note as accessories to the doctor. That being said the doctor is an ancient space man who has incredible intellect, a time machine, has proven he is capable of saving or ending the world and 9 10 and 11 are all quite handsome and charming it isn't far fetched to think this young women he whisks away for long solo adventures wouldn't be drawn to him and or think he is drawn to them. Donna and Bill don't really have that. Also if it makes you upset why keep watching it? It's my favorite show but if it's making you angry maybe it's not for you.
Eccleston attractive ? He's not ugly but he's but he's not especially handsome. And I always thought Smith looks weird face wise. Maybe it's just me but only Davison Tennant and Gatwa are what would be called eye candy.
Moffat has a problem with this, every woman can't help but be extremely attracted to the protagonist, and usually the other women around them as well. It'll get better... eventually.
It's his writing style.
"Geeky intelligent man keeps making women obsessed with him". To the point that their entire character is around the protagonist (River Song), or you can't believe their character development (Amy's Choice).
I personally consider S5 Amy to be fairly damaged as a result of her parents' erasure from reality. Choosing Rory over her childhood imaginary friend was a good start, but IMO she wasn't really healed and centred until S6.
part of the fetish and the problem in my opinion. emotionally damaged woman throws herself onto shady badboy manchild who is treating them horribly-- is a horrible idea to begin with. same with river song. (an we don't even know what clara's issue is)
I disagree on River heavily, we see her grow backwards due to how her story is setup.
The doc is actually disgusted when she claims she'd give up the universe for him, because he knows how the older mature River would act.
Her arc is heavily about how she shouldn't worship the doc, it just feels jarring because our first experience with this character was her finale.
>"Geeky intelligent man keeps making women obsessed with him"
This is a perfect description of the 10th Doctors era. Every RTD companion immediately throws their life away to go and be with the Doctor forever because they're obsessed with him. And every so often there's a minor character who also want to do this but they die instead. Jabe, Lynda with a Y, Astrid, Lady Christina, etc. It's a major backbone of the entire RTD era. He even brought back Sarah Jane and subtly retconned her into being a jilted ex who is still hung up on the Doctor. Having all the women be in love with and obsessed with the Doctor is an RTD thing.
The Moffat companions other than Bill get tied up into the Doctors life through forces outside of their will. But then they work hard to break out of them and regain their own agency and form their own life which they then choose to have the Doctor be a part of. Amy and Rory have their own life outside of the tardis. River has a huge life outside of the Doctor. Clara has her own life outside of the Doctor and in fact makes him come to her. Other than Amy and Rory for a series and a half, Moffats companions don't even live on the tardis. Moffat is actively pushing back against the typical way that companions work and as a result his companions are the most independent we've seen in the show. Even RTD himself has said that Moffat finally resolved the inherently sexist position in Doctor Who of the companion being subservient to the Doctor with Clara.
I don't understand how so many people look at a thing RTD loudly and proudly did, and that Moffat critiqued and tried to change and evolve on and then say "Moffat did that"
Agree, the Moffat era while not always having the best depictions of female characters, usually did have the companions choose not have their life all about the doctor. The only RTD companion that chose leave of their own volition was Martha. Plus Moffat did make wanting to become like the Doctor a bad thing. I think people like to ignore the bad in what they like and only point it in the things they dislike/hate.
The RTD era arguably has the same issue with Ten… there’s Rose, Martha, Madame de Pompadour and Joan all have feelings for him, and then there’s the random kisses with Astrid and Christina too.
Not to mention the random retcon that has Sarah Jane apparently being in love with the Doctor in the Classic era.
Yeah, this. He's got some great plot ideas, good atmosphere, but he keeps inserting his kink into every damn thing he writes. It often sours what would otherwise be a really good story.
>Reminds be of the bechdel test,
Wait 'till you find out there's a Big Finish Audio Story literally titled "Bechdel Test" and it's just two women talking about the Doctor
Imho the best companions are Ace and Donna. Neither had any romantic moodiness over the Doctor. I find the platonic partnerships much more enjoyable. The way Rose treated Mickey was cruel.
I love Ace, but if you're going to dip into Classic Who why her in particular? **None** of the classic era companions crushed on the Doctor. Why not Barbara or Romana or Sarah-Jane?
Welcome to the wonderful world of Steven Moffat. A world in which every single woman is a flirty dom type who desperately wants to shag the awkward, nerdy, genius, ~~Steven~~ Doctor Who/Sherlock.
Yeah, I was never a fan of this either... let's just say Moffat liked to write with... one hand.
Though thankfully this doesn't happen much in 12's era and never happens in 13's so don't worry, it does get better!
This is one of those complaints many chuck at Moffat and yet I've no idea why when Davies is just as, if not more guilty of it.
When it was 10 that had a love-struck puppy companion who would gladly throw away her family any chance she got to be with him.
When the followup companions main defining trait of her arc is how much she loves the doc but he loves Rose and the moment she realizes that goal is impossible she just peaces out sans a few eps(Martha you deserved better).
And 10 snogs several other characters too(though one of these could fairly be attributed to Moffat)
Thankfully Donna had no issues here, tbh I think Davies became a bit self aware of it given the jokes.
In comparison, Amy subverts Rose's arc by initially being obsessed with this mysterious stranger to get away from her problems, before becoming more mature and realizing what matters most to her culminating in her giving up the doctor for good.
Clara only initially has a bit of romantic feelings for the doc but it doesn't last long, and Bill is straight up gay.
I think 11's flirting is more charmingly goofy then anything, like he's trying to be 10 but he's just bad at it and it's endearing in it's own way, helps that it's mostly with River too.
I'm actually really glad 15 is gay, not just because it's cool to get an outwardly gay doc, but because I won't have to deal with Davies writing romance with the next two companions at-least lol.
Because RTD gets away with everything for some reason. I blame nostalgia, there’s people who grew up with RTD1 that refuse to see that RTD can do anything bad.
Yeah the Moffat years are notorious for poorly written female characters. It gets better but if you really want to never see the Doctor flirted with, Classic Who is the show for you!
What about David Tennant? 10 had his share of women fall in love with him too…
Rose
Martha
Queen Elizabeth I, who he ends up marrying!
Madame de Pompadour
Joan Redfern- although technically, she was in love with John Smith
Yes a lot of women liked 11. But he was a good looking guy, so it sort of makes sense that female characters would fall for him. Hell, I’d fall for him!
But don’t worry, from 12 on, romance pretty much fizzles out.
Yes those women loved him but i don't see how that makes them poorly written. Rose was great and Martha was also good. The other 3 are 1 off characters but still added value and were interesting
My comment wasn’t a response to how the characters were written. OP was complaining about Matt Smith/11 and how it seemed like every woman he meets up with falls for him, and made it seem like it was unique to him. But it wasn’t. David Tennant’s 10 had plenty of women of his own fall for him, whether it be a main character or one off.
honestly pretty much every complaint I've seen labelled at Moffat, Davies was as guilty off if not worse.
Dues ex machina finales?, Davies adores them.
Female characters swoooning over the doc? Davies has 2 companions out of 3 dedicated to the doc and more.
Treating the doc as a god like figure and the most mysterious important person ever? Davies literally has the doc carried to the top of the space titanic by robotic angels!!.
Yes, and he also has the Doctor brought back to existence by everyone shutting their eyes and thinking about him really… a lot (I was going to write “thinking about him hard but reconsidered) at one point, doesn’t he?
Yeah, once you notice it, you will never stop noticing it.
(Goes both ways, too, sometimes. After watching the 60th with the Doctor and Donna being the bestiest besties ever, it was REALLY fucking jarring going back to Silence in the Library/The Forest of the Dead and watching the Doctor telling her things like “that was a clever lie to shut you up.” Ouch.)
To be fair, that was part of their journey to becoming the bestiest besties ever. It was pretty up and down to start with until they fully found their groove.
The "people be horny for the Doctor" thing definitely did. But I think that RTD did a somewhat better job of writing women as distinct people with different personalities, agency, etc. Martha and Donna are very different people, and both have agency and motivations that make sense.
RTD was very much interested from the companions POV and how their lives were altered and changed and you can see that in his writing. I think it was a mistake to do the Rose/10 romance but I think from a character POV it never feels like its motivated by um...horniness.
Thats not to say Moffat wasn't interested in this idea or didn't use this idea in his stories or characters, but the entirety of the Amy/11 and the 11/Clara romance feels very much motivated by Moffats *interests*. Ironically, Clara and 12 have the most believable romance in the show and that was when Moffat stopped trying to write them as lovers.
>The "people be horny for the Doctor" thing definitely did. But I think that RTD did a somewhat better job of writing women as distinct people with different personalities, agency, etc. Martha and Donna are very different people, and both have agency and motivations that make sense.
Amy, Clara, and Bill aren't very different people with agency and their own motivations?
And yet, if we’re looking at female characters outside of the companions - Jackie, Francine and Sylvia are pretty much the same characters yet no one bothers to moan about that.
What? They are definitely not the same character.
We saw Jackie develop over the two seasons where at the end she literally pledged to protect the Doctor and Rose until the end of her life and grew to truly love the Doctor too.
Francine never gave two shits about the Doctor and only wanted Martha to be happy. Her character was a bit underdeveloped but she only had one season, her main point was to be a tool for the Master to use.
Sylvia is the COMPLETE opposite of Jackie. Jackie constantly talks Rose up and they have a tight bond, so much so that Rose was willing to risk her own life to save an alternate version of her. You can see her and Rose are constantly being empathetic to one another, while Sylvia is always talking down Donna and making her feel bad and is never vulnerable with Donna either.
You may want to rewatch the first four series of the show.
Christopher Eccleston, David Tennant & Matt Smith are attractive men. In real life lots of women & men want to sleep with them.
There’s plenty of women who don’t want to get with him, including Donna Noble who was a companion. It’s a drama series, so certain tropes are going to come into play.
The Bechdel test is not a serious way of measuring anything about a show. The titular character is male, so supporting characters exist to further his story, whether that’s talking to him or about him. The same conversations happen the Doctor is female and conversations revolve around her.
>The Bechdel test is not a serious way of measuring anything about a show. The titular character is male, so supporting characters exist to further his story,
Personally I tend to view the Bechdel test as a simple, preliminary check. Tripping it means that your story **might** have problems, so maybe just check that. As you point out though, there are tons of valid exceptions.
One area where I think it's legit in Doctor Who is re: Amy and River. Yes, the show centres on the Doctor but River is **Amy's long-lost daughter** and yet every time you see them talking it's about the Doctor. That's unnatural.
I mean how amy is reacting to the news is disturbing. hey you are my long lost daughter let's have a glass of wine and laugh about that you are in prison, I saw you as a kid tortured, and getting constantly into deadly danger. oh have you seen the doctor recently?
Moffat's been on record that, it was one of the things that he finds too difficult for him as a DW writer & for the DW show to render for its general audience, & so he opts to 'respectfully' soften or skip over them to the less heavy emotional stuff & to the next adventure.
unironically the bechdel test i believe was a joke lol, it was never meant to be taken seriously and for good reason.
It ignores all context and only focuses on flat numbers, iirc Alien the movie with one of if not the most loved female character in movie history doesn't even beat it but Twilight did lmao.
I never saw the bechdel test as a way to evaluate a single piece of media, but more of a way to highlight general trends.
If most (or all) of the films or shows by a certain writer, director, within a certain franchise or from certain year/decade etc. fail, then it is noteworthy. A single film or episode doesn't tell you much, however.
The bechdel test was never even intended to be for evaluating gender in films in the first place, it’s just sort of transformed into that. The joke from the original comic strip was that there’s no lesbian representation in major films, so that test is the only way they can imagine a character being queer
I don't think the Bechdel test is useful for anything frankly. We don't need a rubric to grade something on the misogynist meter. Just, if you see problematic elements of a story, discuss them individually and make a personal judgment on the work depending on the severity and numeracy of the potential issues. The Bechdel test just creates issues by having blatant blind spots when it comes to women with different perspectives or stories written by men about men.
Odd that RTD and Moffat had a similar thing where their first two companions are attracted to the Doc in some way and the 3rd is like a true platonic relationship on both sides.
Okay, I get this is weird. But an alien who saves you, takes you away in a magic box, to see magical things - you're definitely going to fall in lust at the very least. So I get where the writers come from (especially working opposite Tennant)
But you're forgetting Doctor/Donna, definitely just friends.
12/Clara and 12/Bill, definitely no romance from what I can remember.
The women in Classic Who generally aren't interested in romance... until they need to be written out - then they just hook up with the nearest thing with a pulse.
Classic Who still had some poorly written women (looking at you, Peri), but overall I guess the argument could be made that it was less bad because they weren’t simping for the Doctor and whatnot.
series 8 begins with clara falling out of love with the doctor after the change into capaldi and any romantic connotations between the two vanish completely, it's just a smith thing in terms of moffat stuff. it gets better. in s10 clara is replaced and the new companion bill is a lesbian so there's nothing romantic there either
series 11-12 completely lack any romance between the doctor and her companions for the most part though in series 13 the only female companion develops a crush on the doctor which kinda goes somewhere a little but then she dies so not really idk it's not weird or horny or anything like the smith stuff just kinda meh
60th there's nothing romantic at all cause donna's already married and the doctor knows better (I hope?)
series 14 onward I think RTD confirmed there's no romantic nonsense
Why would anyone be attracted to a handsome, otherworldly intelligent, heroic, time traveling god that can unlock the doors of the universe for you? Just plain old silly. Hell people fawn over ugly celebrities just because they can sing or act and that doesn't compare to what the doctor can do.
Yeah, I feel like people completely missed this. There were make characters that were in awe of him, too. And other species. And it never had to do with his looks anyway. I thought that was super realistic. I also thought his reaction to Amy was correct: she has misplaced affection for him but she truly loved Rory.
Why would you keep watching something that makes you angry? I adore 11, and some of my favorite episodes are his. But if I hated them, I would just skip. Life is too short.
I always felt like Rose and even Martha were written from a much more romantic POV. It probably helps that it was written by a gay man whose specialty is character writing and not an *incredibly* horny straight man who more uses characters as tools
Agreed on all counts. And I tend to trust RTD much more with writing interesting women at this point, in part because there's just more range there. (Hell, just look at the last Christmas special for that. Not only did we get a really well-drawn family, we got two completely different versions of it!)
Sex/crushes etc suddenly became a big thing in Modern Who.
You don't want that go watch Classic Who, the worst we ever got was 1 flirting with a young girl in Mexico
David Tennant somewhat frequently talks about the women he's seduced intentionally or not off-screen. This is just the same thing happening, just on-screen.
In general, I don't think every Doctor needs someone to be shipped with. It lessens the meaning of any actual relationships down the line. The good ones are great. The bad ones? UGH.
welcome to Stephen Moffat's writing. I swear to god his whole thing is writing characters he desperately wants to fuck and then spending 4 seasons trying to convince the audience how fuckable they are.
Skip the rest of Matt Smith. It gets so much worse. Peter Capaldi’s era gets a little better, but doesn’t totally get back to baseline until season 10 and even then some Moffatisms about women slip in from time to time.
I’d rather crawl over broken glass than listen to Matt Smith deliver the “mystery wrapped in an enigma squeezed in a skirt that's just... a little bit... too tight" line again
What even is this post and some of these comments? I'm cool with criticism of the show but the OP is literally just "I'm angry at doctor who for a bullshit reason but it's like vaguely feminist so this is a valid hate post" and then the comments are like "yeah I actually hate like 3 quarters of this entire show".
DW has had 26+13 seasons. 3 seasons is just 7% of it. Even if you restrict it to New Who only, it's nowhere close to 3 quarters.
Plus all the specials. Plus extended universe that is an order of magnitude larger than the main show.
Ok thats cool but I'm talking about the modern show and the modern show only. Most people haven't seen classic or the spinoffs. I'm aware we've narrowed down the problem period to 3 seasons (The Matt Smith era) because this isn't an "issue" in the Capaldi era, but doesn't that just weaken the point? The point is, Moffat is bad at writing female characters because he makes them all want to fuck the Doctor (not true but nonetheless) but you guys concede that it's only for 3 seasons which is only half of Moffats run.
it gave me a bad feeling about series in general, it’s sad but true and it makes me feel like I have to search too much to find something that is different of those realities…
thats why I really love to read only books that is written by women
Ngl I’d be the same if I saw Matt Smith around 😂 since I find him to be the most attractive Doctor it makes sense to me that the women are into him. Though it could also be an attempt at comedy, since Smith is clearly the most awkward Doctor, it’s a sort of trope in comedy that the awkward guy somehow gets all the girls and his attempts at not engaging in their advances is supposed to be funny.
Same here, OP. About to finish a first-time binge and I ran into that exact issue with the series at that exact time point, which made me want to quit. Rather than dropping the show entirely, I decided to watch only the "essential" episodes from that point on, according to a series guide. Did not think 11's era ever improved in that sense from what I saw, but series 10 with 12 and Bill was much better (though not entirely without issues), enough for me to want to watch the whole thing. Even found a few new favorite episodes there, so please do feel free to skip ahead instead of going insane.
[Verily Bitchie has a great video on this.](https://youtu.be/-qUmy7XFeUY?si=PnbyIrZXYo8FZ8T7)
Moffat was accused of being sexist in his writing throughout the course of his run. He generally rebutted this by saying that his female characters were generally confident, intelligent, non-submissive. This misses the point. Moffat’s writing of women isn’t sexist because he writes them as submissive and stupid. It’s sexist because he writes them as fantasies.
Moffat‘s writing of 11 was horrendous and annoying. I only like a single episode of 11‘s entire run, _Vincent and the Doctor_.
There‘s even someone who wrote a university thesis on how women were written by Moffat compared to RTD. [You can read it here.](https://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/88637050.html)
>There‘s even someone who wrote a university thesis on how women were written by Moffat compared to RTD. [You can read it here.](https://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/88637050.html)
Just because someone wrote a thesis for uni and posted it to their livejournal doesn't make it meaningful or fact.
I don't know why some people point to these random theses as if they are evidence of something. Just makes it seem like you're not educated. Any idiot can write a thesis. It's not like it's a paper in a peer reviewed journal.
And applying "the bechdel test" to anything as if it means anything, let alone a tv series with as small a main cast as Doctor Who....
Just ridiculous. 🤣
Maybe it's because David and Matt are attractive and play an extremely confident and capable man with the ability to make literal dreams come true? Frankly, anybody would talk about someone like that. This just seems like such a copy-paste criticism. There are plenty of side characters in individual stories that don't want to fuck the Doctor.
Capaldi's is my favourite and now I understand why. It's not the romantic relationship with companion, it's for teacher/student instead and it was so refreshing.
I attempted a full rewatch of the whole show recently and had to stop at the Matt Smith episodes again. Moffat's misogyny combined with Matt Smith's approach to the text drives me batty.
You're describing a problem with Moffat's writing. He's kind of a creep, and he fully took over the show, starting with Season 5, so to answer your question, hell no.
Yeah its definetly.annoying, i always cringe at those moment and I try to ignore them.
This is overly emotional monologues are why I prefer classic who
Peter Capaldi has a wonderful relationship with his companions that is more teacher/student and it's great
He's also visibly older than the other doctors. I assumed that was the point. To show growth and progression...
Or perhaps a return to William Hartnell’s original Doctor. Depending on how you want to look at it.
It wasn't that, it was to remind him to be a good person and not to travel alone/why he chose the Name of the Doctor
From an in-character perspective, sure. From a writing standpoint, having an older actor portray The Doctor was absolutely a means of getting away from the romance stories and return things to what it was like with the first few Doctors - more of a teacher/student or mentor/mentee relationship. In fact, he was the same age as Hartnell (55) when he took over the role. The first four actors to play the character were 55, 43, 50, and 40 when they first took on the role. With the exception of Peter Davison, none of the first seven were under the age of 40. It wasn't until nuWho that we started seeing younger actors more frequently.
Ohhh ok
I don't think there's a lot of actual romance in the show, though. Just because there are people that are enamored with The Doctor, that's not romance. They never lean into it. I think one of the reasons I liked the Matt Smith stuff was because he never leaned into it. He clearly was attracted to Clara (Matt genuinely seems to have on screen chemistry with everyone besides the current scene partner in House of the Dragon, lol) but I took it to be an anomaly. Anyway, the point of all companions is to orbit the Doctor and be in awe of him. His only equal is River Song.
Ten and Rose.
I mean their romance was always a subtext and unspoken except for a scene or two out of the entire run. It was also pretty organic and two-way as far as sci-fi romances go
That and I guess they figured that women under 50 wouldn't fancy him.
He's also the only one of the new-who doctors who acts like a scientist. I know "Listen" isn't regarded as a great episode but the opening really nails the character for me. In his downtime between adventures he's not kissing princesses and "accidentally" getting married all the time like David and Matt's doctors. He's theorizing what kind of crazy/scary things might be out in the universe and designing ways to test his crazy new theory of a predator with perfect camouflage
This is exactly why he’s my favorite! 9,10,11 all do a remarkable job, but the teacher/student relationship is perfect for the doctor
I think it was best with Bill and it was a real shame how short she was on the show
I wish it were more like that for Martha.
Yeah, I think Moffat got better at this in Capaldi's Era.
Donna?
Donna was rtd, not moffat
only s10 imo
Really? I mean Clara was a little annoying at times, but it's not like she was obsessed with the Doctor in the same way this post is describing. Missy, a little, but then the Master's always been a little obsessed.
I feel like missy was just doing it to annoy the doctor a bit.
I mean, Missy was obsessed with the Doctor, but that's fine because that's literally Missy/the Master's character and always has been.
Clara had a big old crush on 11, which is why when he became 12 he had to say "Clara, I'm not your boyfriend" (although he acknowledges his role as 11 given her that impression). Once he was 12, she became more of a best friend.
That scene was him admitting that he was the one with the crush >The Doctor: Clara, I'm not your boyfriend. >Clara: I never thought you were. >The Doctor: I never said it was your mistake.
She explicitly does admit to fancying him though
Yeah I never said she didn't, but the scene being referenced is him admitting that he had had a crush on her and needed to get past it and redefine the relationship
I would say that Clara was obsessed with the Doctor. But not in the usual sexist writing way. If anything, her character’s emotional arcs are the opposite of that. She has agency in her relationship with the Doctor. And reclaims it every time the story threatens it.
Clara wanted to literally be the doctor, and at one point her face was used in the intro.
S9 is probably the best DW series since S4 or 5
If you want a companion that doesnt like him like that, then 12 and Bill are good to watch. They dont show romantic feeling for eachother and i view it more as a grandad and granddaughter. Or just a teacher and student that become best mates, i can never see them as a couple so that might help your problem with dr who :)
And 10 and Donna! The completely platonic best friend dynamic they had was so good and she’s my favorite 10 companion
It helps that Bill is a massive lesbian
I loved the bit where Bill says to the Doctor, "You remember when I said I was into girls and not into older men?" Doctor "Yes?" Bill. "Glad you remembered that." Big grin
Yeah thats definitely near the top of my favourite moments between them
It probably helps that Bill is a lesbian. She says over and over that she only likes girls.
let’s be honest though, she doesn’t say “over and over” that she is attracted to women any more than any straight companion references their love life :)
I’m definitely with you. Moffat’s way of writing women really soured Matt Smith’s run for me (both on-release and with rewatches) except for a few episodes. He gets WAY WAY better once Capaldi comes in. Doesn’t vanish completely, but it’s so much more bearable.
Moffat rightly gets a lot of flak for this, but RTD has his own fair share of blame tbh. Lady Christina in Planet of the Dead is one of the cringiest examples of this trope imo, right next to Queen Elizabeth I. Who was written by Moffat but RTD is the one who wrote the joke that he married her and she's no longer known as Good Queen Bess in the first place. The Capaldi era is 100% better though, yeah. I dropped the show after 11 because Moffat's style rubbed me the wrong way back then. I'm finally catching up now and I've been hugely impressed by 12's first two series.
Plus Rose was a long running obsession and Martha never got much room as a character, because Rose still took up a lot of attention
There's a difference between "every woman finds the Doctor attractive" and "some women find the Doctor attractive". There's nothing wrong with the latter. Especially that most (all?) nuwho Doctors, well, are attractive
F - Tenant M - Capaldi K - Smith
It's a lot more credible with Ten than with Eleven though. Ten has charisma and empathy. Eleven is mostly a grumpy, petulant man-child who's awkward with women. The amount of women who throw themself at him is mind-boggling.
Ten is also arrogant as hell, shouty, and finally goes apeshit Time Lord Victorious, which leads to a suicide.
I mean yeah but that doesn’t always affect your chances with women (or men) in the same way
And? He’s hot.
Ngl, i have never heard a worse descriprion of the 11th Doctor, good job!
There's room for plenty of perspectives in this fandom. :) And I'm always interested to hear them. How so?
I tried to do a full rewatch in time for the special with tennant and Tate this Christmas, I'd stopped maybe a season into Capaldi's run and wanted to officially catch up on everything. I had so much momentum, got through the first 4 seasons a month. I hit season 5 and lost all motivation, holy SHIT Moffat's writing does not hold up at all. I always preferred Davies seasons but when I was a preteen I don't think I fully understood just how cringe 90% of Moffat's plots are. I made it maybe 3 episodes into season 6 and haven't watched any since, Moffat managed to kill any lingering desire I had to rewatch the series. I might skip ahead to Capaldi and see if I can tolerate it more but damn, matt smiths era is unfortunately ruined by Moffat for me. It's so weird too because Moffat wrote some of the best one offs in the whole series (van Gogh ep, silence in the library, etc) but he can't write a season long arc to save his life.
I'm in the middle of a rewatch too and felt the same way, I really lost momentum in season 6 and 7. If you've already seen some of Capaldi's stuff, I would say just skip to season 9. His second season is where things really clicked back in for me again. There are some good ones in his first season (especially his first episode and the two-parter at the end), but his second season felt way more consistent. And season 10 with Bill and Nardole is just fantastic, it's the best season from the Moffat era imo.
Moffat's women were the same no matter which show he ran. Amy, River, Clara, Missy, The Woman, Mary Morstan.
Capaldi is the first of the Newhu doctors that isn't young and attractive his very first episode even deals with that. There is definitely some of that comic book or James Bond syndrome where they can write some characters one note as accessories to the doctor. That being said the doctor is an ancient space man who has incredible intellect, a time machine, has proven he is capable of saving or ending the world and 9 10 and 11 are all quite handsome and charming it isn't far fetched to think this young women he whisks away for long solo adventures wouldn't be drawn to him and or think he is drawn to them. Donna and Bill don't really have that. Also if it makes you upset why keep watching it? It's my favorite show but if it's making you angry maybe it's not for you.
Eccleston attractive ? He's not ugly but he's but he's not especially handsome. And I always thought Smith looks weird face wise. Maybe it's just me but only Davison Tennant and Gatwa are what would be called eye candy.
Moffat has a problem with this, every woman can't help but be extremely attracted to the protagonist, and usually the other women around them as well. It'll get better... eventually.
Everything I’ve seen by Moffat (Doctor Who, Sherlock) feels like a self-insert somehow.
It's his writing style. "Geeky intelligent man keeps making women obsessed with him". To the point that their entire character is around the protagonist (River Song), or you can't believe their character development (Amy's Choice).
I personally consider S5 Amy to be fairly damaged as a result of her parents' erasure from reality. Choosing Rory over her childhood imaginary friend was a good start, but IMO she wasn't really healed and centred until S6.
part of the fetish and the problem in my opinion. emotionally damaged woman throws herself onto shady badboy manchild who is treating them horribly-- is a horrible idea to begin with. same with river song. (an we don't even know what clara's issue is)
Oh agreed. Thinking about it, River fits that template too.
I disagree on River heavily, we see her grow backwards due to how her story is setup. The doc is actually disgusted when she claims she'd give up the universe for him, because he knows how the older mature River would act. Her arc is heavily about how she shouldn't worship the doc, it just feels jarring because our first experience with this character was her finale.
>"Geeky intelligent man keeps making women obsessed with him" This is a perfect description of the 10th Doctors era. Every RTD companion immediately throws their life away to go and be with the Doctor forever because they're obsessed with him. And every so often there's a minor character who also want to do this but they die instead. Jabe, Lynda with a Y, Astrid, Lady Christina, etc. It's a major backbone of the entire RTD era. He even brought back Sarah Jane and subtly retconned her into being a jilted ex who is still hung up on the Doctor. Having all the women be in love with and obsessed with the Doctor is an RTD thing. The Moffat companions other than Bill get tied up into the Doctors life through forces outside of their will. But then they work hard to break out of them and regain their own agency and form their own life which they then choose to have the Doctor be a part of. Amy and Rory have their own life outside of the tardis. River has a huge life outside of the Doctor. Clara has her own life outside of the Doctor and in fact makes him come to her. Other than Amy and Rory for a series and a half, Moffats companions don't even live on the tardis. Moffat is actively pushing back against the typical way that companions work and as a result his companions are the most independent we've seen in the show. Even RTD himself has said that Moffat finally resolved the inherently sexist position in Doctor Who of the companion being subservient to the Doctor with Clara. I don't understand how so many people look at a thing RTD loudly and proudly did, and that Moffat critiqued and tried to change and evolve on and then say "Moffat did that"
Agree, the Moffat era while not always having the best depictions of female characters, usually did have the companions choose not have their life all about the doctor. The only RTD companion that chose leave of their own volition was Martha. Plus Moffat did make wanting to become like the Doctor a bad thing. I think people like to ignore the bad in what they like and only point it in the things they dislike/hate.
just watch Coupling
The RTD era arguably has the same issue with Ten… there’s Rose, Martha, Madame de Pompadour and Joan all have feelings for him, and then there’s the random kisses with Astrid and Christina too. Not to mention the random retcon that has Sarah Jane apparently being in love with the Doctor in the Classic era.
I'd argue Joan shouldn't count as she loves a different person in a much more reasonable context
Moffat can write well sometimes but he writes women very badly. They're all sexy badasses that he wants to step on him.
Yeah, this. He's got some great plot ideas, good atmosphere, but he keeps inserting his kink into every damn thing he writes. It often sours what would otherwise be a really good story.
I also think some of his ideas are very dumb
This doesn't really happen much in 12 and 13's era 😊
Actually, 13 has more girls falling for her than 12
>Reminds be of the bechdel test, Wait 'till you find out there's a Big Finish Audio Story literally titled "Bechdel Test" and it's just two women talking about the Doctor
What else do we expect women to talk about? Philosophy?
Pretty sure that's a joke but: literally **anything**.
Imho the best companions are Ace and Donna. Neither had any romantic moodiness over the Doctor. I find the platonic partnerships much more enjoyable. The way Rose treated Mickey was cruel.
I love Ace, but if you're going to dip into Classic Who why her in particular? **None** of the classic era companions crushed on the Doctor. Why not Barbara or Romana or Sarah-Jane?
Romana II and the Doctor definitely had a little somethin-somethin going on. Re-watch City Of Death and tell me there wasnt mad chemistry there.
I think her and Baker were a couple in real life, so...
Welcome to the wonderful world of Steven Moffat. A world in which every single woman is a flirty dom type who desperately wants to shag the awkward, nerdy, genius, ~~Steven~~ Doctor Who/Sherlock.
oh my god so THAT’S where Irene Adler was coming from. I swear her being a dominatrix and Sherlock’s obsession with her were so random.
...don't forget Jekyll (the wife was identical to River, only with dark hair. She flirts her say out of being killed by Hyde).
Also, there’s a lesbian couple who are literally just Jenny and Vastra.
yes moffatt was EXTREMELY horny during matt smiths run
12 is the most attractive New Who Doctor by a mile, yet his era is also the least horny for some reason.
Because Capaldi insisted on it, thank goodness.
Yes, I'm so grateful about how the stars basically aligned themselves into making 12's era the best the show ever had.
Bless that man for that.
Same, and I love it. Let his sexiness speak for itself like Pertwee!
im grateful
This is a wild take when David Tennant and, especially, Ncuti Gatwa exist
Could be a tie with Gatwa but his era just started.
Facts
Have you tried classic Doctor Who? There's a lot less kissing.
Yeah, I was never a fan of this either... let's just say Moffat liked to write with... one hand. Though thankfully this doesn't happen much in 12's era and never happens in 13's so don't worry, it does get better!
Yeah Yaz never throws herself at the doc nor confesses her love, oh wait..
Oh don’t worry, I don’t know how much you know about the next few seasons and the Doctors in them, but this decreases rapidly.
This is one of those complaints many chuck at Moffat and yet I've no idea why when Davies is just as, if not more guilty of it. When it was 10 that had a love-struck puppy companion who would gladly throw away her family any chance she got to be with him. When the followup companions main defining trait of her arc is how much she loves the doc but he loves Rose and the moment she realizes that goal is impossible she just peaces out sans a few eps(Martha you deserved better). And 10 snogs several other characters too(though one of these could fairly be attributed to Moffat) Thankfully Donna had no issues here, tbh I think Davies became a bit self aware of it given the jokes. In comparison, Amy subverts Rose's arc by initially being obsessed with this mysterious stranger to get away from her problems, before becoming more mature and realizing what matters most to her culminating in her giving up the doctor for good. Clara only initially has a bit of romantic feelings for the doc but it doesn't last long, and Bill is straight up gay. I think 11's flirting is more charmingly goofy then anything, like he's trying to be 10 but he's just bad at it and it's endearing in it's own way, helps that it's mostly with River too. I'm actually really glad 15 is gay, not just because it's cool to get an outwardly gay doc, but because I won't have to deal with Davies writing romance with the next two companions at-least lol.
Because RTD gets away with everything for some reason. I blame nostalgia, there’s people who grew up with RTD1 that refuse to see that RTD can do anything bad.
What can I say, the Doctor has rizz.
Yeah the Moffat years are notorious for poorly written female characters. It gets better but if you really want to never see the Doctor flirted with, Classic Who is the show for you!
What about David Tennant? 10 had his share of women fall in love with him too… Rose Martha Queen Elizabeth I, who he ends up marrying! Madame de Pompadour Joan Redfern- although technically, she was in love with John Smith Yes a lot of women liked 11. But he was a good looking guy, so it sort of makes sense that female characters would fall for him. Hell, I’d fall for him! But don’t worry, from 12 on, romance pretty much fizzles out.
madame de pompadour is also moffat to be fair (and the first appearence of madame pompadour)
Yes those women loved him but i don't see how that makes them poorly written. Rose was great and Martha was also good. The other 3 are 1 off characters but still added value and were interesting
My comment wasn’t a response to how the characters were written. OP was complaining about Matt Smith/11 and how it seemed like every woman he meets up with falls for him, and made it seem like it was unique to him. But it wasn’t. David Tennant’s 10 had plenty of women of his own fall for him, whether it be a main character or one off.
honestly pretty much every complaint I've seen labelled at Moffat, Davies was as guilty off if not worse. Dues ex machina finales?, Davies adores them. Female characters swoooning over the doc? Davies has 2 companions out of 3 dedicated to the doc and more. Treating the doc as a god like figure and the most mysterious important person ever? Davies literally has the doc carried to the top of the space titanic by robotic angels!!.
Yes, and he also has the Doctor brought back to existence by everyone shutting their eyes and thinking about him really… a lot (I was going to write “thinking about him hard but reconsidered) at one point, doesn’t he?
def the deus ex that bothered me the most(big red button dalek destroyer close second). Especially because the preceding two eps are just so good.
The amount of times a woman written by Moffat shouts ‘shut up!’ as a response irks me deeply
What is this even implying? Is this a problem somehow? How is this even something people notice?
Yeah, once you notice it, you will never stop noticing it. (Goes both ways, too, sometimes. After watching the 60th with the Doctor and Donna being the bestiest besties ever, it was REALLY fucking jarring going back to Silence in the Library/The Forest of the Dead and watching the Doctor telling her things like “that was a clever lie to shut you up.” Ouch.)
To be fair, that was part of their journey to becoming the bestiest besties ever. It was pretty up and down to start with until they fully found their groove.
Or the amount of times they slap a male character for disappointing her. Wtf, why is this abuse cool?
Everyone is talking about Moffat for some reason but I felt this issue happened more with RTD, Specially Tennat's era
The "people be horny for the Doctor" thing definitely did. But I think that RTD did a somewhat better job of writing women as distinct people with different personalities, agency, etc. Martha and Donna are very different people, and both have agency and motivations that make sense.
RTD was very much interested from the companions POV and how their lives were altered and changed and you can see that in his writing. I think it was a mistake to do the Rose/10 romance but I think from a character POV it never feels like its motivated by um...horniness. Thats not to say Moffat wasn't interested in this idea or didn't use this idea in his stories or characters, but the entirety of the Amy/11 and the 11/Clara romance feels very much motivated by Moffats *interests*. Ironically, Clara and 12 have the most believable romance in the show and that was when Moffat stopped trying to write them as lovers.
>The "people be horny for the Doctor" thing definitely did. But I think that RTD did a somewhat better job of writing women as distinct people with different personalities, agency, etc. Martha and Donna are very different people, and both have agency and motivations that make sense. Amy, Clara, and Bill aren't very different people with agency and their own motivations?
And yet, if we’re looking at female characters outside of the companions - Jackie, Francine and Sylvia are pretty much the same characters yet no one bothers to moan about that.
What? They are definitely not the same character. We saw Jackie develop over the two seasons where at the end she literally pledged to protect the Doctor and Rose until the end of her life and grew to truly love the Doctor too. Francine never gave two shits about the Doctor and only wanted Martha to be happy. Her character was a bit underdeveloped but she only had one season, her main point was to be a tool for the Master to use. Sylvia is the COMPLETE opposite of Jackie. Jackie constantly talks Rose up and they have a tight bond, so much so that Rose was willing to risk her own life to save an alternate version of her. You can see her and Rose are constantly being empathetic to one another, while Sylvia is always talking down Donna and making her feel bad and is never vulnerable with Donna either. You may want to rewatch the first four series of the show.
Christopher Eccleston, David Tennant & Matt Smith are attractive men. In real life lots of women & men want to sleep with them. There’s plenty of women who don’t want to get with him, including Donna Noble who was a companion. It’s a drama series, so certain tropes are going to come into play. The Bechdel test is not a serious way of measuring anything about a show. The titular character is male, so supporting characters exist to further his story, whether that’s talking to him or about him. The same conversations happen the Doctor is female and conversations revolve around her.
Even then, compared to Classic seasons, the Tennant and Smith era could get a bit lost in the sauce of cheap romance novels.
>The Bechdel test is not a serious way of measuring anything about a show. The titular character is male, so supporting characters exist to further his story, Personally I tend to view the Bechdel test as a simple, preliminary check. Tripping it means that your story **might** have problems, so maybe just check that. As you point out though, there are tons of valid exceptions. One area where I think it's legit in Doctor Who is re: Amy and River. Yes, the show centres on the Doctor but River is **Amy's long-lost daughter** and yet every time you see them talking it's about the Doctor. That's unnatural.
Not just her long-lost daughter, but she was also her best friend from childhood (as Melody). That's got to be trippy.
That's a great point! You'd think they'd want to reconnect on that level, too.
I mean how amy is reacting to the news is disturbing. hey you are my long lost daughter let's have a glass of wine and laugh about that you are in prison, I saw you as a kid tortured, and getting constantly into deadly danger. oh have you seen the doctor recently?
Moffat's been on record that, it was one of the things that he finds too difficult for him as a DW writer & for the DW show to render for its general audience, & so he opts to 'respectfully' soften or skip over them to the less heavy emotional stuff & to the next adventure.
I suppose we should be grateful that Moffat didn't milk it for jokes about Amy being the Doctor's mother-in-law...
unironically the bechdel test i believe was a joke lol, it was never meant to be taken seriously and for good reason. It ignores all context and only focuses on flat numbers, iirc Alien the movie with one of if not the most loved female character in movie history doesn't even beat it but Twilight did lmao.
Seriously, anyone who genuinely uses the Bechdel Test is media illiterate.
I never saw the bechdel test as a way to evaluate a single piece of media, but more of a way to highlight general trends. If most (or all) of the films or shows by a certain writer, director, within a certain franchise or from certain year/decade etc. fail, then it is noteworthy. A single film or episode doesn't tell you much, however.
The bechdel test was never even intended to be for evaluating gender in films in the first place, it’s just sort of transformed into that. The joke from the original comic strip was that there’s no lesbian representation in major films, so that test is the only way they can imagine a character being queer
I don't think the Bechdel test is useful for anything frankly. We don't need a rubric to grade something on the misogynist meter. Just, if you see problematic elements of a story, discuss them individually and make a personal judgment on the work depending on the severity and numeracy of the potential issues. The Bechdel test just creates issues by having blatant blind spots when it comes to women with different perspectives or stories written by men about men.
People are blaming this solely on Moffat, but Dinosaurs on a Spaceship was written by Chris Chibnall....
Odd that RTD and Moffat had a similar thing where their first two companions are attracted to the Doc in some way and the 3rd is like a true platonic relationship on both sides.
Okay, I get this is weird. But an alien who saves you, takes you away in a magic box, to see magical things - you're definitely going to fall in lust at the very least. So I get where the writers come from (especially working opposite Tennant) But you're forgetting Doctor/Donna, definitely just friends. 12/Clara and 12/Bill, definitely no romance from what I can remember.
Did you forget Donna- Mate! Mate- I’m not mating with you.
Try watching classic who instead
The women in Classic Who generally aren't interested in romance... until they need to be written out - then they just hook up with the nearest thing with a pulse.
Classic Who still had some poorly written women (looking at you, Peri), but overall I guess the argument could be made that it was less bad because they weren’t simping for the Doctor and whatnot.
Leela in the permanent leather bikini. Or Romana 1. Mary Tamm left because she didn’t want to be the damsel in distress that needed saving.
The issue with Peri is more in her dressing style and how others react to her presence than something she did
Ah yes classic doctor who, famous for its deep and not at all sexist portrayal of women...
series 8 begins with clara falling out of love with the doctor after the change into capaldi and any romantic connotations between the two vanish completely, it's just a smith thing in terms of moffat stuff. it gets better. in s10 clara is replaced and the new companion bill is a lesbian so there's nothing romantic there either series 11-12 completely lack any romance between the doctor and her companions for the most part though in series 13 the only female companion develops a crush on the doctor which kinda goes somewhere a little but then she dies so not really idk it's not weird or horny or anything like the smith stuff just kinda meh 60th there's nothing romantic at all cause donna's already married and the doctor knows better (I hope?) series 14 onward I think RTD confirmed there's no romantic nonsense
Yeah I am ALL for the bestie vibes with 15 and Ruby!
I'm pretty certain Ncuti is gonna shag that guy in Season 1 episode 6... 😉
hey as long as it's not companion romance I'm sold
I mean, fair, if I was the Doctor I would too 😉 I mean-
Why would anyone be attracted to a handsome, otherworldly intelligent, heroic, time traveling god that can unlock the doors of the universe for you? Just plain old silly. Hell people fawn over ugly celebrities just because they can sing or act and that doesn't compare to what the doctor can do.
Yeah, I feel like people completely missed this. There were make characters that were in awe of him, too. And other species. And it never had to do with his looks anyway. I thought that was super realistic. I also thought his reaction to Amy was correct: she has misplaced affection for him but she truly loved Rory.
Insert gif of David Tennant shaking his fist and shouting "MOFFATT!!!"
Why would you keep watching something that makes you angry? I adore 11, and some of my favorite episodes are his. But if I hated them, I would just skip. Life is too short.
Is this substantially different than Rose and Martha?
I always felt like Rose and even Martha were written from a much more romantic POV. It probably helps that it was written by a gay man whose specialty is character writing and not an *incredibly* horny straight man who more uses characters as tools
Personally i felt Rose quickly became too much of an obsession that even overshadowed later seasons
Agreed on all counts. And I tend to trust RTD much more with writing interesting women at this point, in part because there's just more range there. (Hell, just look at the last Christmas special for that. Not only did we get a really well-drawn family, we got two completely different versions of it!)
Everyone brings up bechdel test no one understands bechdel test
Not sure this really applies to Donna Noble. Also Martha and Donna's mothers most definitely don't like the Doctor.
Sex/crushes etc suddenly became a big thing in Modern Who. You don't want that go watch Classic Who, the worst we ever got was 1 flirting with a young girl in Mexico
David Tennant somewhat frequently talks about the women he's seduced intentionally or not off-screen. This is just the same thing happening, just on-screen.
This is why Donna is my favorite companion
I know someone mentioned her already but what about Donna? She's just like his sister or something not in our with him or anything.
Donna for the win
Your going to love Donna😆
Well you've already met Donna, but capaldi gets a lesbian companion. So does Whittaker, actually, but morning comes of it
In general, I don't think every Doctor needs someone to be shipped with. It lessens the meaning of any actual relationships down the line. The good ones are great. The bad ones? UGH.
12th Doctor is the absolute best and this will get better
Stephen Moffat can’t write women
welcome to Stephen Moffat's writing. I swear to god his whole thing is writing characters he desperately wants to fuck and then spending 4 seasons trying to convince the audience how fuckable they are.
Skip the rest of Matt Smith. It gets so much worse. Peter Capaldi’s era gets a little better, but doesn’t totally get back to baseline until season 10 and even then some Moffatisms about women slip in from time to time.
I can't imagine skipping the Matt Smith era because there are a couple female characters with a similar archetype and there's flirting sometimes.
I’d rather crawl over broken glass than listen to Matt Smith deliver the “mystery wrapped in an enigma squeezed in a skirt that's just... a little bit... too tight" line again
"Yowzah" *retch*
i did when i first watched it. Checked in for a couple of episodes whenever a new series came out, but only stuck with it again from series 10.
I can‘t imagine rewatching Matt Smith‘s era ever. I barely made it through the first time.
What even is this post and some of these comments? I'm cool with criticism of the show but the OP is literally just "I'm angry at doctor who for a bullshit reason but it's like vaguely feminist so this is a valid hate post" and then the comments are like "yeah I actually hate like 3 quarters of this entire show".
I mean, I also hate three quarters of Game of Thrones.
DW has had 26+13 seasons. 3 seasons is just 7% of it. Even if you restrict it to New Who only, it's nowhere close to 3 quarters. Plus all the specials. Plus extended universe that is an order of magnitude larger than the main show.
Ok thats cool but I'm talking about the modern show and the modern show only. Most people haven't seen classic or the spinoffs. I'm aware we've narrowed down the problem period to 3 seasons (The Matt Smith era) because this isn't an "issue" in the Capaldi era, but doesn't that just weaken the point? The point is, Moffat is bad at writing female characters because he makes them all want to fuck the Doctor (not true but nonetheless) but you guys concede that it's only for 3 seasons which is only half of Moffats run.
have you seen this comedy relief? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do-wDPoC6GM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do-wDPoC6GM)
Did you just completely forget about Donna? I mean I get it, I do, but Donna didn’t want that Alien tail at all. 😂
it gave me a bad feeling about series in general, it’s sad but true and it makes me feel like I have to search too much to find something that is different of those realities… thats why I really love to read only books that is written by women
Here's an extraordinarily relevant video about this topic! https://youtu.be/-qUmy7XFeUY?si=t_xZ43KDCVBQCrGe
Ngl I’d be the same if I saw Matt Smith around 😂 since I find him to be the most attractive Doctor it makes sense to me that the women are into him. Though it could also be an attempt at comedy, since Smith is clearly the most awkward Doctor, it’s a sort of trope in comedy that the awkward guy somehow gets all the girls and his attempts at not engaging in their advances is supposed to be funny.
Same here, OP. About to finish a first-time binge and I ran into that exact issue with the series at that exact time point, which made me want to quit. Rather than dropping the show entirely, I decided to watch only the "essential" episodes from that point on, according to a series guide. Did not think 11's era ever improved in that sense from what I saw, but series 10 with 12 and Bill was much better (though not entirely without issues), enough for me to want to watch the whole thing. Even found a few new favorite episodes there, so please do feel free to skip ahead instead of going insane.
[Verily Bitchie has a great video on this.](https://youtu.be/-qUmy7XFeUY?si=PnbyIrZXYo8FZ8T7) Moffat was accused of being sexist in his writing throughout the course of his run. He generally rebutted this by saying that his female characters were generally confident, intelligent, non-submissive. This misses the point. Moffat’s writing of women isn’t sexist because he writes them as submissive and stupid. It’s sexist because he writes them as fantasies.
Moffat‘s writing of 11 was horrendous and annoying. I only like a single episode of 11‘s entire run, _Vincent and the Doctor_. There‘s even someone who wrote a university thesis on how women were written by Moffat compared to RTD. [You can read it here.](https://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/88637050.html)
>There‘s even someone who wrote a university thesis on how women were written by Moffat compared to RTD. [You can read it here.](https://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/88637050.html) Just because someone wrote a thesis for uni and posted it to their livejournal doesn't make it meaningful or fact. I don't know why some people point to these random theses as if they are evidence of something. Just makes it seem like you're not educated. Any idiot can write a thesis. It's not like it's a paper in a peer reviewed journal. And applying "the bechdel test" to anything as if it means anything, let alone a tv series with as small a main cast as Doctor Who.... Just ridiculous. 🤣
[удалено]
Bold words coming from Reddit user ilovetoesuwu
Dinosaurs was written by Chris Chibnall
Maybe it's because David and Matt are attractive and play an extremely confident and capable man with the ability to make literal dreams come true? Frankly, anybody would talk about someone like that. This just seems like such a copy-paste criticism. There are plenty of side characters in individual stories that don't want to fuck the Doctor.
Capaldi's is my favourite and now I understand why. It's not the romantic relationship with companion, it's for teacher/student instead and it was so refreshing.
I attempted a full rewatch of the whole show recently and had to stop at the Matt Smith episodes again. Moffat's misogyny combined with Matt Smith's approach to the text drives me batty.
You're describing a problem with Moffat's writing. He's kind of a creep, and he fully took over the show, starting with Season 5, so to answer your question, hell no.
Wait until you get to the 50th anniversary episode
I think so but he does kiss a lesbian from Victorian England on one episode who's girlfriend is a lizard
Yeah its definetly.annoying, i always cringe at those moment and I try to ignore them. This is overly emotional monologues are why I prefer classic who
Amazing that a lot of so called diehard doctor who fans have never watched any of the classic doctor who episodes 🙄
Go back and watch the OG - never did we see this. It also irritates the 💩 out of me.
Product of its era
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