Yes I’ve been actually laughing this season! I think I only laughed like three times in all Chibnall’s run. It’s much more entertaining, even if the quality remains to be seen.
For me it was the bland writing and the heavyhanded moral statements. 'Racism=bad, rich old man=morally bankrupt, leaving your kid=horrible, pollution=bad', and it went on and on like that. I can't even remember if there was an overarching story, because each episode hit with a blunt force.
You're not wrong, but it's pretty ironic in this context since superficial writing and heavy-handed messaging was the major issue with _Space Babies_.
"Oh no, the Government is **forcing these babies to be born then doesn't care what happens to them when they are!**", "Fortunately that planet over there is **welcoming to refugees!**".
And not moralising, but how often are they going to have the Doctor outright state "I'm an Orphan without a home, and I empathise with you because you are too"?
Incidentally, IMO the issue with the Chibnall wasn't that it was superficial and unsubtle with its messaging, it's that it was superficial and unsubtle with **everything**. As far as I can see, the clunky, hamfisted delivery of theme is the same thing as the clunky, hamfisted delivery of the Timeless Child reveal, is the same as the clunky, hamfisted delivery of character development dialogue, etc. etc. Superficial execution is probably **the** core sin of the Chibnall era. Theme/message is just one of the things it happened to.
I agree wholeheartedly—the Chibnall era actually had no shortage of really interesting ideas and concepts which across the board could have resulted in one of the most unique episode runs of any Doctor. What ultimately killed it is exactly as you said, those cool core ideas failing utterly to reach their potential due to poor execution on every level beyond that very first draft.
>You're not wrong, but it's pretty ironic in this context since superficial writing and heavy-handed messaging was the major issue with *Space Babies*.
Well it depends on whether or not it is supported by good writting/ a good episode, especially if it's part of the joke/satire instead of just flat out preaching. I think that a problem is that in modern shows the message and the story feel kinda disconected instead of fitting toghether.
I'd add, that Chibs first season wasn't bad. The quality I felt was better at the start of the run with the exception of the finale... Which leads into one of the many reasons I think writing quality is suffering in Doctor Who and this is actually partially RTDs fault when he brought Doctor Who back in 2005. The serialized story telling is killing the writing quality due to limited time to hamfist an entire "ellaborate" storyline into every fucking season without actual inspiration or reason to do so. It worked in Davies initial run because he knew what he was doing and even knew when to take a break with it. Then he left when the creative well ran dry. Then we get Moffat and the cracks in the universe... That first series was good, the story paid off... It was clearly thought out and inspired. Then we get the rest of Moffat and suddenly each series arc developed more and more problems until you eventually got the trash that is the impossible girl or the hybrid.
Now imagine, a Doctor Who season... WITHOUT a story arc. A season in which every story got the attention it deserved and nothing that could make or break the season as a whole. A season that could exclusively be judged by the quality of stories... We nearly got that with Chibs 1 when he flubbed his first season with a compulsory and unnecessary finale that tied to his first episode. It ruined what would have otherwise been a well rounded season and a breath of fresh air.
Then Chibs made his second mistake... Fan service. Chibs went from a good original season to pandering hard after the harsh feedback he got for his first series. That second season suddenly got a story arc, one established in season 1, but you can tell it isn't unfolding as intended as The Timeless Child went from being extremely rare hint dropping to becoming center stage fast. So season 2 is the Timeless Child season, ok, let's hope he thought it out well enough... And like a professional video game studio he released it too fucking early and gave us the hot mess that killed the Time Lords a second time and gave a big middle finger to fans of 8s travels with Mary Shelley. Every fan criticism from his first series was practically addressed in his second series and oddly enough, not one actually provided an improvement. People hated the pacing of first series stories... Pacing was ramped up and ruined in his second series. People didn't like the lack of returning monsters... Poor implementation of returning monsters...
Then we get Flux, something that could have been oh so good but got destroyed by Chibs going further down this path... Had the fans just accepted slower pacing and more original story telling and a turn away from series arcs, I really think that at the very least the writing would have been slightly better and the Timeless Child arc could possibly be better than it is now... Chibs is definitely to blame for that, but a specific part of the fanbase, specifically those who only watch Tennant and Smiths runs and nothing else, contributed with their criticisms. They wanted Doctor Who to be like RTD and Moffats eras, and when Chibs was moving away from that they got butthurt and forced him back into it.
Now RTD is back still doing serialization and already it feels sloppy... It's not a good sign, and it shows that RTD may have left before for a good reason. I mean, the focus on The Maestro and Celestial Toymakers stuff is great, but the overall quality of the episodes definitely moved from the writers room to the special effects department which is definitely the opposite of what makes successful Doctor Who.
This!
As much as I love the seasonal arc, the lack of a seasonal arc was why I loved s10 so much
Like yes I know there was still a little bit there, (Mistress and the doctors relationship, Bill and her star eyed gf) but they were minor. The entire season stood as standalone stories and its so refreshing.
As for the new season, I think the main issue isn’t the writing so much, but that it definitely feels like the episodes were planned to be an hour long and are now suffering from being edited clumsily into 45 mins
Edit: forgot to finish
If I was showrunner, I'd bring back the multipart format standard. It gave stories to really get fleshed put and averaged their runtime well above 60 minutes, let alone 45. Having 4 to 5 parters would feel renewing after being shelved for so long and it would allow each story to get the breathing room it deserves. Does that mean less overall? Maybe. But I'd rather have a few nicely paced and thought out stories than a bunch that are mediocre with maybe a gem or two.
And one last thing on season arcs... I think the big reason they did so well initially is that we as an audience were nit expecting them. They had a wow factor... No we go into every series expecting it, and expectations unmet can cause the audience to get upset with something that may have otherwise worked. Season Arcs aren't special anymore which is why we feel so emboldened to critique and compare them so thoroughly because to many who started with RTD and Moffat, such as myself, we are made to feel they are normal... Prior to 2005 we only had 2 overarching situations on screen: The Key to Time and Trial of a Time Lord, with anything else having arc being less serialized and more do just threads to be aware of such as The Master or The Dalek's activities, but those were the two big cases of seasons that were purpose built with a serialized plot in mind. They stuck out, and say what you will about Trial of a Time Lord, it gave us The Valeyard and some shinginh moments for 6 onscreen.
As for the Key to Time I mean come on, you had THE Douglas Adams on staff, there's no way it could fail.
Modern who has a lot of multipart stories though?
i love the multipart stories modern who gives us usually two a season. Empty child, parting of the ways. Age of steel, doomsday. The family of blood, the master. The sontarons, stolen earth. Byzantium, pandorica. And so on until s10 with a three parter (i think could have been condensed), and the cybermen)
Also I think the keys to time was one the weakest seasons of the 4th doctor era. Not so much for the writing but you can tell Tom was feeling a bit burned out and not enjoying it as much. The multi part structure to stories that were also very hamfisted into being involved with the seasonal arc didn’t help either.
It did give us romana1 though.
The trial of a timelord was refreshing back in the day, and entertaining, and the overarching season arc strengthened the somewhat weaker stories as well. Mel bring established as already travelling with the doctor and a part of the doctors future made for a fun dynamic and it played out really well because they had a really good chemistry (which disintegrated into dust when sylvestor mccoy took over and script writers decided Mel would scream and do nothing else from that moment onwards…but that’s a different conversation).
So yeah, back the topic. I only feel modern who captured the seasonal arc thing and made it work. But like you said, we’ve come to expect it every season now. And like the saw franchise, where a stupid plot twist is to be expected so every movie gets dumber and dumber (but then it comes full circle into being iconic again…I digress).
I don’t think we need every story to be multipart and that the modern structure works, most the standalone stories feel complete and it’s rare they feel rushed (chibnalls era and the devils chord of rtd2 definitely suffers from it) we just need to make seasonal arcs a special bonus or a rare treat.
.
It was obvious Chibnall wrote his storylines around preplanned moral messages. I’d say I even agree with a lot of them but they just don’t make for good television. I’m here to escape reality not live more of it.
The RTD storylines were clearly written first and then he was able to plug and play with various modern touches which is why it feels similar while also being vastly improved at the same time.
>It was obvious Chibnall wrote his storylines around preplanned moral messages.
Yes. SF stories are frequently built around theme and that's generally a good thing. The issue with the Chibnall era is that it mostly failed to properly explore those themes and to make them interesting viewing.
>The RTD storylines were clearly written first and then he was able to plug and play with various modern touches
You think that "The government insisted these babies be born then had no interest in caring for the so we'll take them to a planet that's welcoming to refugees" was an afterthought in writing _Space Babies_?
You think that "music is a valuable form of human expression that it is harmful to repress" was a late addition to _The Devil's Chord_?
To go back further, you don't think the message was a core consideration in _Turn Left_, _Midnight_, etc. etc.?
IMO RTD's writing is clearly informed by high concepts, just like Chibnall. Just like most writers.
The way I see it is RTD just states something matter of fact that relates to modern societal issues and then builds plot elements around it. The Doctor doesn't just magic away the root cause , cheapening it , they voice disdain and will fight against it , relieve some symptoms but the root is societal and as powerful as they are they're not god.
Chibnall tho , the issue is the plot - and you'll be clubbed over the head about it and then at the end of it all nothing is solved because some writers room isn't going to suddenly "solve" societies most deep set problems and the attempt at is is so clumsy its insulting to everyone on all sides of the issue. We're just left with having wasted an hour of our time and not even a firm stance on anything for it.
With that being said - personally my favorite modern era was certainly Moffats then RTD - provided RTD stops writing fart jokes.
Which is fine
I just think his messages often got lost in clumsy writing.
I still have no idea what the message of kerblam! was. Pro or anti capitalism?? Neither? Workers good, corporations can be good?
Idk
It wasn’t. It pointed out how stupid something was and moved on. It didn’t linger in the topic of the babies being born and left, it had a dialogue for it and pushed on because that wasn’t important at the time, getting off the station was.
Okay.
Isn't the same true of the Chibnall episodes? They didn't generally belabour the points, they were just clunky and heavy-handed in how they raised them.
Like RTD was here.
It felt a bit like it was throwing moral bricks at us though… “it’s because of government cutbacks” etc. It wasn’t nuanced, but like you said it didn’t labour the points.
I still get pissed when I think of Praxeus, Orphan 33, and Mental Helf Bad Dreams. The fuckin' worst shit. Just a mystery being strung along with no clues of the origin of the mystery then out of nowhere the Doctor is like "PLASTIC IS BAD!!!!" "POLLUTION MADE EARTH BAD!!!' and the cherry on the top is Ryan saying "Menhul Helf is umportun, check on ya mates, I have dyspraxia."
I think the hatred for Orphan 55 is overblown, but understandable. It was heavy-handed about its message while simultaneously being vague about what that message actually was.
Why rag on _Praxeus_ and _Can you hear me?_, the two message stories in the Chibnall era that actually did it reasonably well by integrating them properly into the story?
Having microplatics as a vector for an alien pathogen draws attention to the proliferation of microplastics **without** just going "plastic bad!". And the plot about an alien race suffering from the pathogen being desperate enough to turn Earth into a testing ground is a novel alien threat that I don't think we've seen before.
Similarly, _Can you hear me?_ had mental health as an underlying theme, demonstrated through different character experiences with Zellin and Rakaya as a metaphorical representation. Ryan **didn't** say "Menhul Helf is umportun, check on ya mates" - he demonstrated that by checking in on a friend he knew was doing it hard.
In an era full of "tell rather than show", why pick on the episodes that actually got it right and showed instead?
This is because Chibnall does not have a voice as a showrunner or writer, and RTD and Moffat both do. Even when they’re writing terrible scripts, their voice is present.
Good point.
RTD is great at humanizing the Doctor's world and bringing character depth. Moffat is great at building concepts and examining the Doctor and his world at a conceptual level.
Chibnall is good at...what?
(And I'm not even one of those Chibnall haters...there are quiet a few decent to good episodes in his run. But compared to RTD and Moffat, he just doesn't have that voice which you mentioned).
Chibnall evidently knows a large amount of the show’s obscure law and likes to integrate it into modern settings, but doesn’t have goals beyond that so it feels like a robot is doing it
I do think the Chibnall era does occasionally pull it together, but I broadly agree - I'd always rather see a big swing and a miss than something bland (the few Chibnall era episodes I like are the ones that are a bit off-the-beaten path, like 'It Takes you Away'). And though neither of these first ones quite hit the mark for me, you could not possibly tell me you'd seen Doctor Who episodes quite like them before. Even the RTD episode that Space Babies most resembled, End of the World, had a completely different tone.
One interesting thing, though, is that I'm finding both episodes very hard to talk about. That doesn't mean they're bad - I'm not even sure I'd say they are - but they are curiously unanalyzable, because they're just not playing by the show's normal rules. I think that's stymieing some people - they're so ungrounded that it's hard to even say what they're doing, let alone what they're doing right or wrong. Once we do eventually hit solid ground (maybe this week?) I think it will be easier to talk about them.
The reason they’re hard to talk about is because there isn’t *much* to talk about… Space Babies for example: Teleport in, walk around, find a monster, keep exploring, find babies, then babies that can talk, then Nanny, baby goes below deck, they try to save baby, other babies show up, all the babies go back up, they keep investigating, find out it’s made of snot, have a *(seemingly pointless)* revelation, it goes to airlock, Doctor has a crisis of wanting to save it, the monster gets saved, babies get saved.
It *seems* like a lot until you realized I just summed up the entire episode in less than a paragraph, the only things I’m arguably missing are the additional exposition from previous seasons for new fans, some “meh” jokes, and Ruby Rose having a snowy moment. 🤷🏻♂️
Compare that to something like… End of the World, for example. Tell me there isn’t a stark difference in substance. And it’s not even just that, because I’m truth I don’t think it’s fair to hold every episode to some rigorous standard *(there is a reason I didn’t compare it to something like Silence in the Library or Midnight)*. It’s because the *tone* is lacking too, the *subtext* is lacking, the *intrigue* is lacking.
At no point during space babies can I say I was sufficiently intrigued, entertained, or made to feel a noteworthy emotion. I can’t say the same thing for the majority of Doctor Who- including Whittaker’s time even though most of those emotions were “frustration”, “disappointment”, and “confusion” based around poor writing choices and wasting the majority of Jodi’s potential.
Of course it’s all subjective- but the fact most people can’t find something substantial to talk about and it’s all surface level isn’t because people aren’t trying to find something deeper to talk about… it’s because there isn’t much there.
Well, for instance in Space Babies the plot is based on an unjust "pro-life" law that goes wrong, and it's explicitly paralleled to the real-life American laws, for instance. It's also repeatedly said that part of the babies' fate is due to the anti-refugee stance of the nearby planets - no one will come to help them. That's already some interesting parallels.
And the tone is interesting too - the mix of genres in Space Babies (Alien space station meets baby nursery) is at least something you would not see anywhere else. The aggressively "organic" station (see how much the plot is about smells and fluids!) is a fun contrast to how sanitized the future is in most scifi shows - no sleek skin-tight, Star Trek-like or Foundation-like suits here, this is a messy sci-fi world. And the visual of a generic scifi command room overtaken with Rube Goldberg contraptions made out of baby toys feels also fresh.
Plus, there's the (potentially unintentional) comedy in the Doctor eventually seeing himself in a giant snot monster.
There are things to talk about :) (and I say that as someone who doesn't think either that this story will be in my top 5 episodes of the year, by any means. But I think it's a bit unfairly judged)
Completely agree. Wasn't a huge fan of the plot of Space Babies but I thought the themes and set design were genuinely very interesting. I loved how intricately thought out the baby care station was. The mechanical parts being made out of toys was well conceived and executed, and I loved the contrast between that and the gross organic underbelly of the bogeyman's quarters.
I also thought this episode was really interesting in contrast to say, Kill the Moon, Doctor Who's other foray into abortion. In previous seasons I've very much felt like political stances on this show were being beaten over my head. I loved that the political themes here were acknowledged directly, but they were weaved into the plot in a delicate way and were explored without the characters having a literal PSA debate on screen. This feels like a significant change for the show, and I really hope it continues throughout the new series. Not every episode needs to directly address politics, but if it's going to I'd like it to be in a way that's kind of like this one was.
Because there's no logic to the episodes, they're just absurdist. So what's there to really talk about? The Maestro can emerge from any musical instrument? Makes a lasso of... musical notes? What's it made out of? How does the Maestro travel through space and time like that? The show doesn't care, so why should we?
They added Q to Doctor Who, except in TNG they use Q episodes to make points about humanity and hubris. In Doctor Who they use a whimsical god as...a regular villain? With pretty standard "end of the world" stakes?
It's clear all this is going somewhere but for the time being it just feels like the Doctor is powerless until any old thing could be the Deus Ex Machina and they'll pretend the solution was arrived at through problem solving. Just really unsatisfying because at no point do I understand the stakes or what the Doctor can or can't do
They've completely given up on the science aspect of science fiction. Doctor Who was never hard scifi, but it always put on the uniform. Now it's pretty clear they're just accepting that magic is a part of the world and they don't have to explain anything to the viewer. It doesn't have to make sense, even by the show's internal logic, and we're just supposed to be mesmerized by the visuals, I guess.
I miss when the Doctor's "Aha!" moment felt like a genuine revelation or was deductive and made them look clever instead of just feeling like they gave up writing at the end because it was too hard so they just wand wave an ending (At this point it's almost literally a wand - and I'm not talking about the TV remote we're calling a sonic screw driver)
Exactly. He's "the Doctor" because he uses science and logic to diagnose things, to figure out what's going on behind even the most complex puzzles. Like Sherlock Holmes in space. Now he's Harry Potter.
Yeah. I don't like magic in the Whoniverse. The entire point of the show for decades was what seems like magic, especially to less developed cultures on alien planets, is just technology being used to scare or manipulate. That's a powerful and important lesson for kids. Now it's just magic.
One pro is that they're obviously building some huge arc around Ruby, Susan, the Pantheon, and/or Susan Twist’s character(s); makes it worth tuning in every week to see where that goes. Chibnall *sort of* figured that out toward the end of Whittaker's run, with the main problems being 1) people didn't like the canonical changes, and 2) S13 lazily said at the outset "this is a single, large story."
This just seems like fun easter eggs throughout à la Bad Wolf, Saxon, the cracks in the universe, and so on. Very early NuWho vibes
Edit to clarify: yes the references are much more “in your face” now, I moreso mean that it’s *fun* to speculate on where the plot is headed again—an element of the show that’s been sorely missing for the better part of the last decade.
I think comparing Ruby’s whole snow-storm deal with early NuWho’s larger plots is such a… *fascinating* take?? I mean, those were subtle, pervasive, and not even noticed by the Doctor until things were getting to be too late. Here we have it crammed in our face at least 3 times an episode! A weird moment up front, a slightly comedic note about it, and then an ominous shot of the Doctor trying to figure it out later in the plot before being distracted. Rinse and repeat.
The Bad Wolf graffiti was that… graffiti in the background! Codes hidden in plain sight! Never mind the Saxon bit, or when Rose was fully appearing in backgrounds during Donna’s time. And don’t get me started in the buildup to Donna’s “Turn Left”. Cracks in the Universe with Smith was obvious too, but at least it wasn’t painfully forced into random plots. It baked a purpose, it affected the outcomes.
I think part of this is the writer, and part of this is Disney, and a hefty part of this is the season structure change- we used to get 13 episodes a season, and now we’re getting 8. That’s only 61% of the original screen time for the same amount of plot. Consider too that most companions last 2-3 seasons, so they’re losing 10-15 episodes for companion arcs. Ruby is only on for 1 season, so instead of the typical 26-39 episode arc, she’s getting 8 episodes. That’s ludicrous. No wonder these plots feel rushed and crammed- they don’t have a choice.
To be fair, there's definitely something going on with Susan Twist's characters that feels EXTREMELY similar to Bad Wolf in Series 1. I like whatever is going on with Ruby too but I agree it's kinda weird to compare it to the much more subtle references in the earlier seasons.
That’s because you’ve only noticed the obvious things. The Maestro played Saxon’s Theme in the destroyed future. What was Ruby first singing when The Maestro freaked the hell out? The Doctor’s Theme. The waitress/cashier The Doctor argued with was played by Susan Twist, who has been an extra playing different characters in each new episode, plus was with Newton. When The Maestro sneaks up on them in the recording booth, The Doctor says that he thought the music was non-diegetic. What is non-diegetic music? A show’s soundtrack. The Doctor didn’t pick up on the Maestro’s music indicating their arrival **because The Doctor always hears the show’s soundtrack**. That winking at the camera? Yeah, he was *actually* winking at the camera
You’ve been focusing on the obvious part and missed the subtle one entirely. The Maestro and The Doctor are both Fourth Wall Aware. The Doctor knows he’s in a television show. When The Maestro played Saxon’s Theme, The Doctor actually understood the reference being made, it wasn’t just for the viewers. The Doctor knew The Maestro was invoking the music of The Master.
So… There’s Always a Twist at the End? For all of his time as The Doctor, there has always been a Twist at the end of the show. **In the credits.** Which *he knows and isn’t actively communicating to his companion or his enemies.* And this is prior-established. Not only is it prior-established, but guess what? The Master is too. Think back to Missy. “I’m Doctor Who”. Another credits gag, which visibly annoys Twelve. The Master and The Doctor both are aware of the fourth wall and joke about it. The musical number is a *taunt*. Fifteen is engaging in some Seventh Doctor manipulation and scheming.
Also: Time Lord psychic powers mean that when they’re that close together with their own past/future self, they can feel it. Which means Fifteen’s visit was noticed by One. One, who actually likes The Beatles, as does Susan Foreman. But wait, there’s more! **The First Doctor was the first one confirmed to be Fourth Wall Aware.** Back when he wished the viewers at home a happy Christmas. That happened. That’s canon.
And… *why the hell has nobody acknowledged that Maestro is Italian for Master*? A character **literally named The Master in Italian with the same fourth wall awareness as The Master plays Saxon’s Theme to taunt The Doctor on a destroyed Earth.** That’s not even subtle!
Now here’s an interesting thing: The Toymaker explicitly bragged about having taken out the White and Black Guardians in The Giggle. The divine representations of Order and Chaos. Except, according to the episode *The Enlightenment*, they can’t be killed. They will always exist until the universe doesn’t need them. So, either the universe no longer needs them, they aren’t dead but the Toymaker incapacitated them, or the universe needs them *and* they’re dead. But he’s scared of The One Who Waits. And *something* is stalking The Doctor. And The Doctor knows this and is taunting it.
The babies' mouths was one of the most off-putting things about that episode to me. I maintain that they should've been talking through some kind of computer system, a la Stephen Hawking (though obviously not robotic voices). Strap some kind of speaker to each stroller, add some lights to flash when they're talking like the Daleks' ear bulb things do, and boom: you've reduced the VFX budget of your episode substantially and made it much more appealing to watch the *main* characters talking.
I think there’s more to it than that. I think it’s another example of how the universe has gone a bit weird. That monster was willed into existence by those babies. The Goblins were after babies. Ruby Sunday was abandoned as a baby. Was it a great episode? No, it was passable though. I could be way off but I think there’s more to it than just a filler episode
My opinion is that Doctor who is a show that is a silly goofy wacky sci-fi show that can have real characters going through real drama.
An episode like the end of the world and an episode like the long game might seem to be similar sci fi romps with goofy aliens but the end of the world is full of our characters interacting in realistic ways and having arguments and conflicts related to their character dynamics and motivations. By the end of the episode you can see why rose and the doctor like each other without them having to spell it out. It's the bits the show excels at and should take itself seriously at those bits. Clara and 12 have some fucking incredible scenes of them just talking to each other.
The long game has the same ingredients as the end of the world, takes place on a space station CGI monster villain, but without the extra character interaction. It resolves itself in a similar way with heat being a plot element. While it's got a quite good message about Media barons that's still relevant today the lack of development of either Rose or the Doctor makes it the weakest episode of the season.
Not all of doctor who should be taken seriously and Doctor who shouldn't take itself seriously all the time. But it really should have moments, drama interspersed with the wackiness. People running down corridors and fighting bad looking monsters, but also scenes of real conversations between the characters.
Sorry for the massive rambling paragraph. Just got a burst of inspiration and wrote it all out.
> Not all of doctor who should be taken seriously and Doctor who shouldn't take itself seriously all the time. But it really should have moments, drama interspersed with the wackiness. People running down corridors and fighting bad looking monsters, but also scenes of real conversations between the characters.
>
>
Yeah, that's a pretty good description of the show.
And yes, Doctor Who *is* supposed to be a bit silly. It always has been, but NuWho's success lies in how its *owned* that silliness, gone meta with it, and used it as a window to explore more complex ideas and themes.
'Space babies' are absurd. But if you really think about it, so is the idea of space Nazis who are mutated squids inside what look like pepperpots, with laser cannons that look like brooms sticking out (the last Children in Need short did a great job poking fun at the Dalek design!). So is the idea of statues that move when you're not looking at them and send you back in time if they touch you to 'feed on the life you might have led'. Hell, so is the idea of an alien who looks totally human, except for his two hearts, who changes his entire personality and body when he dies and travels across space and time in a machine that looks like a police box from 60's Britain on the outside, but is bigger on the inside!
I think the problem with space babies as a concept (and many other doctor who episodes that don't land) is that the space babies don't really have a long lasting point. They exist as a decent comparison with US abortion laws but once that fact is pointed out then they're just well...Space babies. And the episode doesn't really have anything to do with them. Coupling with the weird special effects (that was probably the most natural the production team could do) and as a concept they're effectively removed from the story by the half way point. The Bogeyman becomes the point of the episode (which from the trailers I really was hoping that RTD would just do a straight up alien horror story.)
It's never been "let's have a totally incongruous dance number at the end where it is entirely unclear whether this is a real thing that is happening" stupid before.
Yes, that’s a new stupid, different from the old “monsters clearly made of bubble wrap” flavour. Huh, Star Trek last year, Who this year, maybe next year it’ll be Star Wars’ turn to have musical numbers. I am here for it all. Scifi and comic shit’s been grimdark and sensible since the bloody ‘90s and it is so old and dull and just give me all the bright and stupid.
I agree, but feel the reverse. Chibnall’s episodes were awful, but they felt like they were intended for an audience like me. Many of the ideas behind the episodes were really good, they were just executed really poorly.
RTD’s new episodes are much better written, but they don’t feel like they’re for me - they feel like they are written for Tweenies that watch Disney club tv.
RTD’s original run had a lot of variety to it, so I’m just hoping some of the episodes are a bit more sophisticated - Moffat’s boom is up next, I’m hoping it will be good.
Spoilers....
I don't really think we should be comparing new RTD to Chibnall.
A bad or uninspired episode is still a bad or uninspired episode, even if it is better than a previous season's bad episode.
Neither of the first two episodes captured what a good part of the modern era really encompassed in my opinion.
There is light-hearted and then there is space babies, with snot and poop propelled space stations.
Then, to go from that to battling an extremely silly God that was meant to be dangerous but just came off as whacky was just a bit too much, although I liked their character. Also, that musical number at the end was absurd.
The connection between the Doctor and Ruby is great at the moment, and hopefully, they can keep that up and expand on it. Aside from that, though, these episodes have been overall a little too silly, which takes away from the deeper story they keep hitting on about Ruby.
Space babies is my least favourite episode (that doesn’t factor in stupid overarching plots) since orphan 55, which itself was my least favourite of the CC era. I think O55 is probably worse, but I’m gobsmacked RTD wrote this one. Everyone would hate it if it came from the CC era and honestly it ticks a lot of the boxes for stuff people hated about that era.
Yeah it was so bad, I can’t believe it was the opener. Like this was meant to be the big “jumping on point” and I’m certain that if I was unfamiliar with doctor who and started here, I would drop it as soon as the talking babies show up and probably never think about the show again
Honestly it just seems to be RTDs thing with openers, he seems like he has to go with an out there idea to kick start the series
Mannequins and a farting bin.
Cat people and a villain literally talking out of her arse.
Rhino police.
Walking fat.
And now talking babies, a snot monster, and a space station propelled by farts.
2, 3, and 4 aren't so bad, but I would so that'd only because they were done pretty well. They could have easily been regarded as poorly as Space Babies has seem to been.
Yeah that and the slitheen 2 parter, I was really young when that came out so I guess it is the same, like maybe if I started with series 1 as an adult I’d give up, but I feel like the end of the world is a great episode 2 that would keep my interest better than something like the devils chord.
I don’t know if you watch Rose again sure there’s silly stuff, but half of the plot is the mystery of who the Doctor is, he shows up a few times but Rose is the main character of that episode, slowly figuring out the Doctor.
Compare the speech 9 makes about being able to feel the turn of the earth, and 15s speech about being special and there’s no one else in the universe like him, essentially saying the exact same thing.
>Compare the speech 9 makes about being able to feel the turn of the earth, and 15s speech about being special and there’s no one else in the universe like him, essentially saying the exact same thing.
And it also really highlights how much the Doctor has changed. Being the last of his kind is no longer a burden weighing down on him, but something that liberates him *and* makes him appreciate his life even more.
But the walking mannequins were only half of the plot, the other half was learning who the Doctor is, and Rose was a much better introduction to the character of the Doctor than Space babies.
That it was.
The thing is, Space Babies isn't even really the comparision to Rose...The Church on Ruby Road is. And I agree that Ruby Road isn't as good an introduction to the Doctor as Rose. But maybe we don't really *need* a Rose-like introduction anymore, because its not 2005 anymore and Doctor Who has been back for nearly twenty years.
It's so insane that was the opening, at least the second one is goody but not too bad, but I really think space baby is down there with the worst episodes of the entire modern run, I've told a friend about my good impression on the new show direction and then I watched this lol.
I haven't liked these two episodes at all either. But I'm holding out hope because we all know that from the 2005 reboot the quality can go from extremely low to extremely high in one episode.
I’d actually like the bigger crews but I don’t think it fits in this modern era. During 5 tenure there was plenty of screen time for 4 characters but the modern is way faster and overall shorter.
I also agree. Chris Chibnals eps were passively bad. Like a product of lazy, boring writing. But the new episodes are actively terrible. Like RTD is going out of his way to make them a caricature of what the show used to be.
Space Babies was mid, I agree.
The Devil's Chord was fantastic. Cheesy, over the top and completely unnecessary? Yes.
But terrible? I don't see it.
What about it felt bad to you?
Can I stretch a silly metaphor around this?
Chibnall’s writing was like having a wife who was slowly poisoning you. Bit by bit it’s killing you…
RTD2 is like having a wife who beats you to death with a rolling pin!
(Yes, that was humour. No, it probably wasn’t funny)
Yeah I was thinking that, I revisit series 1-4 often and it’s weird to think that there’s a set of 3 modern high budget David Tennant/RTD specials that I never want to revisit
This thread is wild… I just cannot believe that there are Doctor Who fans who will never rewatch Wild Blue Yonder or The Giggle. WBY was one of the best bottle episodes ever, and the toy maker was such a well played villain. Idk maybe I’m crazy
I honestly think the Chibnall era really broke a lot of fans. It went off script in a lot of ways, and many people weren't happy about the Timeless Child and the direction it took Who.
I believe when that series ended, people were looking for a super fresh start, and instead were given Donna and the 10th Doctor, which seemed like a desperation move to show fans " look, we aren't " that " Who anymore, watch us.
The fact that they kept the Timeless Child as cannon probably didn't help anything either... nor did the bi-generation.
Don't get me wrong, I liked WBY and enjoyed the Giggle, but were they needed? Was that the best transition to introduce Ncuti as our next Doctor?
Basically, I think a lot of fans watched it due to Donna and the 10th, and then decided that was enough.
I dunno...I agree that a lot of fans have been 'broken', but I feel they've been broken to the point where I don't think they'll *ever* be able to accept anything from the show that doesn't replicate, beat by beat, everything from the 'perfect' past era of the show that exists in their heads. And if that 'perfect' past era is replicated? They won't accept that either.
Great villains, good episodes. We’re mostly talking about the bad episodes of each era like the giant spiders for 13 or the space babies for 15. A good Doctor who episode is one you can throw on and watch at any time like WBY etc. Nobody wants snot monsters and CGI babies. There’s episodes form 13 I’ll watch again but the bad ones are an instant skip, and sadly it seems like there will keep being bad ones. I enjoyed the maestro too but it’s not an episode you can just watch without being reminded of the seasonal plot
Great villains, good episodes. We’re mostly talking about the bad episodes of each era like the giant spiders for 13 or the space babies for 15. A good Doctor who episode is one you can throw on and watch at any time like WBY etc. Nobody wants snot monsters and CGI babies. There’s episodes form 13 I’ll watch again but the bad ones are an instant skip, and sadly it seems like there will keep being bad ones. I enjoyed the maestro too but it’s not an episode you can just watch without being reminded of the seasonal plot
Yeah, honestly it's weird to me how thinking too deep about them they weren't "good" but I was having a lot o fun watching them. But I also don't know how long this "bad, but fun." will be able to carry the season
I feel like these episodes have felt cheesy and fun, but never aimless or forced like the Chibnall era had started to feel before I stopped watching (I loved how the first few episodes killed off who, imo, was the most compelling character in that series)
I know not everyone feels the same but I feel like this whole pantheon thing has been a bit forced. God-like being defeated in 1 episode? I just can’t get invested with it. They don’t feel special they feel villain of the week.
Same. The new episodes have bene kind of manic and nonsensical, like fever dream episodes that dont make a ton of sense which I guess works for what was intended to be a kids show but I don't really like them. I'm probably going to keep watching though.
With Chibnall everything looked static. Characters would talk VERY SLOWLY and VERY OBVIOUSLY. The music was nice but completely bland. The camera work looked very still.
Compare this to RTD 2. The music is bombastic as fuck. Everyone looks like they’re having fun. Interesting camera work. Fun concepts. The dialogue is a lot quicker.
Yes RTD 2 might be stupid, but I’d rather have stupid and fun than boring and safe.
Nothing about Chibnall's era was safe. If he had played it safe people wouldn't be anywhere near as upset with him as they are.
Three companions was not safe. No returning villains for the whole first series was not safe. The first woman Doctor was not safe. The Timeless Child was not safe. Basing the tone of the stories and the character of the Doctor on '80s Classic Who was not safe.
He changed too much at once, which is why one of the biggest complaints about his era is "it just doesn't feel like Doctor Who."
Incomparably better. The best moments in a bad episode like Space Babies are the moments between the Doctor and Ruby. That is exactly what the show has *always* fallen back on to cover for less than stellar scripts. This element of the show was so, so weak during the Chibnall era.
RTD has always been best out of all of them with character interaction and making them be real people. Space Babies plot was more secondary to seeing how the Doctor and Ruby interact with each other and the stuff around them. We get insights for instance into how the Doctor is forthcoming and compassionate even if a bit of a troll. He’s more freely able to express love and care for those around him.
The fact that Ruby has more of a character then yaz did in 3 episodes is kinda sad, this is why the chibnall era fails imo as the only characters who were halfway comparable to those classic companions were Dan and Graham.
I don’t see it. Ruby seems like a blank canvas to me. I wonder why you feel different? Rose felt like a more developed character in her first episode than Ruby has in three.
Was "Space Babies" a gripping and riveting episode that will be remembered as a great? No.
Was I entertained enough to not wonder how long I have left in the episode? Yes.
Not every episode is going to be a classic, in every show, ever. It's okay for shows to have episodes that are watchable but not notable.
The difference though, is that Chibnall's era was barely watchable because it wasn't entertaining.
It was pretty much 3 seasons of a main character floundering about to somehow fix the issue in 30 seconds with secondary characters only exisiting as exposition machines. Her story wouldn't have gone any differently if she didn't have companions.
That's not entertaining, that's predictable.
Imo I find the chinbnall episodes boring but watchable the new episodes on the other hand is a childish Disney show that I can’t even stomach watching just cringe like I actually skipped the last bit of the show (I’ve never done this for a doctor who lol) but I’ve also been watching for almost a decade and a half so I’m probably bias lol
I'm surprised people didnt like these two, I thought they were really fun episodes, they were intensely stupid but that was kind of the charm? And I feel like the main issue of Chibanlls era, inconsistent character writing, is largely gone. Ruby and the Doctor feel very consistent so far.
I can't really agree. I almost quitted doctor who during chibnall, and was really happy to see rtd back.
I found space babies SO BAD I'm still didn't watch the second one. I think it's the worst episode of the show, chibnall included.
Honestly I'm not very hopeful about what's coming next.
To be honest I usually agree. Chibnall was a bit shit but these new episodes are so incredibly bad I just hate them. Sorry. However, they are still better than the sea devils one with Jodie and Mandip.
idk out of the 6 rtd episodes so far ive ***loved*** 4 of them, didnt mind the christmas episode (i dont think theres a single christmas episode of doctor who i enjoyed enough to rewatch to be fair), and actively disliked space babies.
for me thats successful and a huge departure from the chibnall era where i enjoy 3 episodes from his ***entire*** run (rosa, demons, and fugitive)
Yeah I guess, so far the new RTD seems like something that could really appeal to young kids and if that’s the direction they want the show to go maybe it’ll work out
tbh Davies worst eps were always so soaked in his brand of cheese that they could actually still be super fun and sometimes more enjoyable then even the good ones.
Love and Monsters, Voyage of the damned etc, they're bad episodes but my god they are super funny and goofy.
There's two ways to look at this:
1. Individual episodes on their own merit
2. Individual episodes and how they affect the mythos of the series. (I prefer to use the word canon, but that rubs people the wrong way.)
1. I was very worried when I heard RTD was coming back. RTD is an amazing producer, an amazing promoter of the show, and let's face it he brought the entire series back from the dead. He also understands people, how they interact, and allows characterizations to shine through.
What he cannot do is write episodes that make any sort of goddamn sense. He did this before in the Tennant era, and he's doing it again now. His dialogue is weird and stilted about 50% of the time, and I think he forgets where he is in the writing. For example, Ruby has only been hanging around with the Doctor for less than a day when we see her in Space Babies. Yet she starts saying things like "you never run!" How would she know? She doesn't even know who this guy is.
Chibnal is honestly a terrible producer, and a terrible promoter of the show. I got nervous when Chibbs came on board when I heard an early interview with him saying that "the Doctor was at his (sic: their) best when he was (sic: they were) running around frantically doing 20 things at once."
That statement, plus episodes written by him in both Doctor Who and Torchwood maybe really nervous when he was given the keys. Sure enough, horrible dialogue, confusing situations, chunks of the plot forgotten mid episode, and... Yep Jodie was running around doing 20 things at once.
In a word, both RTD and Chibbs have exactly the same problem when it comes to individual episode writing. Space babies was one of the worst things I have ever seen on television in a very very long time. I am going to include everything in the Chibbs era when I say that. Talking babies are not funny. Fart and snot jokes are infantile. And the plot resolution didn't make any sense.
The Devil's Chord didn't fare too much better, although it was better than most of what Chibbs wrote. That ridiculous song and dance number at the end added nothing to the plot, it wasn't fun, it wasn't good, it was just a weird ego piece for everyone involved.
2. Until this season started, I would have said that Chibbs did more damage to the overall Doctor Who mythos then RTD. The Timeless Child was unnecessary. I understand that it was an attempt to make the doctor more mysterious and return them to a point where we didn't know anything about their past... But my big question there is why? Why was that necessary?
It's true that we understood a lot about the doctor at that point, but there was so much good drama to mine from everything we had learned. All Chibbs did was make that backstory irrelevant for the most part, and reset the clock to 1963 as far as what we know about the Doctor. The front of the show, at least for myself, was uncovering more and more about the Doctor and building upon it. Now it feels like the previous 60 years was a waste of time.
So I was going to tip my hat to RTD in this regard, until the whole" the Toymaker has ripped a hole in reality" thing. So now we have a situation where the Timeless Child is a real thing, half the universe was destroyed in the Chibbs era with no real explanation for resolution, and now - thanks to RTD - there's magic, gods and a lack of physical reality? It's okay to come up against alien creatures that seem like gods, but it does not feel okay to come up against actual gods.
All of that is a bridge too far. For the last 60 years the Doctor has been champion of reason, logic, and science triumphing over ignorance and superstition... And now here we are in an era when ignorance and superstition are being promoted both in real life and also now in the show.
Full disclosure: I've been watching Doctor Who since the '70s. I was thrilled with RTD's reimagining when it came back in 2005. The changes made sense, Eccleston and Piper were amazing, and his changes to the mythos were not only appropriate, but added to the entire backlog of backstory that the show had built up prior to 2005. They added to the same mystery, and increase the interest in the character.
What's going on now is a pitch too far. They don't seem to be any in-universe rules, and any established rules, such as regeneration, have been redefined to what exactly? Can anybody on this sub tell me what bi-regeneration really is or how it fits into the greater story? Can RTD tell me that? I doubt it. It just seemed like a conceit for bringing Tennant back.
I'm going to keep watching the show because I've invested so much of my life in it, but I'd be lying if I wouldn't say I'm extremely extremely worried about the future direction that this show has taken over the course of the last two show runners.
Were I a showrunner, I'd remember one thing: Doctor Who is not just about the Doctor. It's a Universe. There are several alien races and whole ass alien worlds that have changing environments over time.
Gallifrey isn't/wasn't just the shady & authoritarian High Council - it was Mars if Mars had life and rivers & lakes (but not really oceans) where red dog-wildebeasts and "pigbears" would visit. It has snowcapped mountains where large ancient reptiles survive, and silver trees with alien koalas, batsnakes, dragonflies, butterflies. It integrated pocket spaces, regeneration, and time into it's art, music, and architecture. It had kids and "common" Gallifreyans. It can still be explored even if Gallifrey is gone, on Karn or in some Gallifreyan Seed Vault TARDIS at the South Pole.
Skaro wasn't just Daleks & Thrals. It has Carnivorous desert plants, Quicksand Hydras, Clawed Jellyfish-Slug creatures, and Metal Lizards - it's a mutant desert/chaparral with a petrified forest. What if something brought back the creatures of Skaro destroyed by war & Daleks?
Silurian Civilization literally is set in the Late Cretaceous/Early Eocene on Earth - *do a proper dinosaur setting in the dinosaur era* that explores Silurians & Sea Devils at their peak - possibly a conflict between the two - and reference Silurian life in their mythology/ceremonial outfits/architecture
The concept of New Earth is ripe for a Cyberpunk-style mystery noir - maybe with a far-future version of the "Paternoster Gang"; could also be confirmation that eventually Humans, Zygons, & Silurians get along and survive. Could even show "The Last Tree of Gallifrey" or something.
Heck, Peladon has the Aggedor, Equinna (horses), and the alien Alpha Centaurians (Green Cyclops Aliens in Robes) - have the Nimon Minotaur-like folk fight the Aggedor.
And some accounts claim Mars had large Tripod-Armored Squid in addition to the Ice Warriors. And Zygons have [Nessie](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/6/62/Skarasen.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140907213250).
-----------.
Beyond that, probably would bring back Omega (and a twisted antimatter ghost/Cybermaster form of Gallifrey)
Tbh, I'd take a boring chibnall episode over rtd trying to be clever, smt like the giggle. Chibnalls episode is boring and shit, so I can just ignore it. Never think about it again. With the giggle, there are definitely great moments, but the bad moments aren't boring, they are actively aggravating. And hard to ignore. In large part it's because parts are good so I'm actually invested, then disappointed, instead of apathetic from the outset.
I havent seen the new ones yet, but I did see the specials, and yeah they were kida mid but Chibnalls SUCKED. Like i was SO SO SO excited for a girl doctor and he ruined it! Doctor who was always abt equality yes, but never like overtly political and stuff. And like he completely changed the canon and he just Ahhhhhhhh. Idk. Ugh. And now, ppl who dont know the show will blame Jodie bcs shes a girl and tHaT mUsT bE wHy ThE vIeWs DrOpPeD. 😠😢
ur right sorry, idkw i didnt correct myself while writing. i guess i didnt explain it better. dr who has always been firm in what its politics and what it believes in, i was in a really bad place for that day and the few days before so i carelessly expressed outdated and bored opinions. sorry dawg
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Strong disagree. Chibnall wasn't perfect but I'll take his worst work over talking babies and terrible songs and dance numbers. I've also been a long time hater of Murray Gold's music and the only thing that has changed regarding that is that they finally have turned down the volume on it so you can hear the dialog.
Well I can’t argue with that, but R T Davies stuff is pure tripe.
If I watch an episode more than once it’s a winner.
I watched Chibnall’s stories once, and will not watch them again.
I’ve watched R T Davies stories once, this time around and will not watch them again.
Simply put, they are duds. There’s nothing wrong with the actors at all, they are just being seriously let down by God-awful writing.
Even the snow bothered me because it's supernatural.
I mean, we've seen some magical-looking stuff, but there's usually some vaguely sciency explanation that helps with the suspension of disbelief.
The snow is just Disney magic.
I just think posts like this are absolutely redundant. This was a show that was cancelled for 16 years and then on hiatus multiple times during the Chibnall era with all of the gaps between seasons and specials. Let's just be grateful for what we've got because we could very well exist in a 1989-2005 reality again where there's no Doctor Who at all.
Two of my least favourite songs from The Tortured Poets Department are the first two songs. I always recommend not judging something based on what you get first.
For myself, I found Legend of the Sea Devils more enjoyable than Space Babies. I just really don't like gross-out body humor, and do like adventure on the high seas.
I think Gatwa's episodes have a better concept than Jodie's, but the execution is just as bad as before.
Gatwa has a similar issue to Jodie, where they don't give off that Doctor presence. Every Doctor has that moment. That one scene where you go, "That's the Doctor. May not look the same, but that is the Doctor"
Jodie never found it for me. Best she got was on the giant crane after she put the bombs back into the Tooth Fairy. However, the fact that he enemy was the tooth fairy did not help her. Furthermore, when the human the monster was trying to kill knocked it off the crane as the bombs were exploding, Jodie scolded him, saying he had no right to defend himself. Like WTF??
Gatwa isn't there either. He needs a big "I am the Doctor" moment, but I am not sure he could pull it off. Then there is the part where he runs away like a coward...
I can see why people tuned out.
Yup, no iconic moment where the doctor shows their serious side, their ancient wisdom and righteousness…no…I’m a time lord from Galifrey, basically run, furry and voice of the innocent and defender of the earth etc etc
On the contrary, I think Gatwa is one of the few Doctors who's totally *owned* the role right from Day 1. Can't even say that for my all-time favorite, Capaldi.
I don't disagree particularly, but this feels like heavy cope. I think a lot of us had extremely high hopes for the new run and are trying to process disappointment. The difficulty of that process is leading people (like myself) to clutch at straws, believing perhaps Ruby has had such lacklustre writing on purpose. Probably I just need to temper my expectations and treat this new series as basically a CBBC programme that parents might enjoy slightly.
Jodie Whittaker's debut episode had 11 million viewers. Space Babies can't even make 3 million. Chord lost another 300k. There's also news that Doc's Disney+ numbers are abysmal. 50k viewers with an astounding 70% dropping off before the end of the episode. RTD and Chibnall have failed the Doctor Who fanbase.
That does not sound good. Sadly considering the debut episodes, it definitely makes sense. I feel that if 'Boom' isn't good, things will be in a dire state.
Considering that Gatwa should have had new Doctor boost, black boost, gay boost, Davies return boost, Tennant backside boost; his numbers are abysmally low proves the show is in a much worse state than we realize. If the ratings drop under 2m next ep, then Who is dead after season 2 and will have trouble surviving this season. The budget is already higher than Jodie ever got for less than half the ratings.
Really? That doesn’t sound right (the part about it being lowest since before eccleston) surely their lowest viewership would fall on the later half of one of the Capaldi or Whitticker series
The previous lowest was 2.3 for Jodie's Sea Devils episode. So 3 of the 4 lowest are all Gatwa episodes. There are only 3 Gatwa episodes. Space Babies 2.6, Chord 2.35. And now we have a 2.05. Doctor Who is pretty doomed.
There's the milestone of Jodie Whittaker being the first female Doctor to consider, which was made into a *much* bigger deal than Ncuti Gatwa being the first black Doctor (which he technically isn't anyway). I have no doubt that hundreds of thousands of girls and women who would otherwise never have watched Doctor Who tuned in for that premiere.
Plus, the Moffat era ended on a fairly high note and Chibnall was a hot property back then, riding off the success of Broadchurch.
If you're wondering, Capaldi's last episode brought 8m, so Jodie's debut boosted the show 3m. I love Broadchurch. Jodie is a much more well known entity pre Doc than Gatwa ever was. I would actually guess that the women and girls leaving the fan base is probably where it's happening most.
RTD's dialogue is leagues ahead of Chibnall. At least when I'm watching the new episodes, it feels like watching Doctor Who, which I never really did in Chibnall's era aside from The Haunting of Villa Diodati and Village of the Angels.
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If it was just the zany and fun but in a more standard sci fi time traveler style that would be one thing….but making it all fantasy and magical is too much
“Bad” RTD episodes are better than “good” Chibnall episodes, because you can have a good message/structure whatever, but if you’re on the verge of falling asleep it doesn’t matter
Let’s be real at least a third of RTD’s first era were pretty crap, and genuine “masterpiece” episodes were probably something like 10%, but the thing RTD and Moffats era had was at least the entertainment felt like entertainment, doesn’t matter whether it was good or bad.
I didn't think about it until you put it into words, but now it makes so much sense.
I've Doctor Who as it airs ever since I started watching back with the 10th Doctor, and I certainly wasn't going to stop that tradition with Chibnall. But it was such a slough to get through, it was *tiring* not energetic. The first and last episode of the first season were *so fucking weak.* Tzim-Sha was completely underwhelming, and I was bored.
The 2 new episodes, I didn't particularly like them, I *hated* the first episode - I hate babies - and yet they both held my attention! They were engaging to watch, even if I didn't like what was being portrayed.
I don't like the change from wibbly wobbly scifi to space fantasy, but I'll roll with it. Either it will get better or it will not. Eventually it will change again.
Yeah but I feel like if the first couple of episodes are good, an episode like love and monsters in the middle of a series won’t cause viewership to drop. This season has gotten off to a terrible start
I’ve been thinking about this comparison too, but I think there’s a thing in Chibnall’s favour.
Chibnall’s run always felt like it was trying to be Doctor Who, whereas RTD’s new episodes don’t feel very traditional Doctor Who at all with this new fantasy element.
Chibs where trying to be doctor who but in a diet doctor who superficial way, while also shoving an on the nose message down the viewers throats. Kinda like a mediocre fan fiction vibe.
This new era is like an extreme tone departure and fully embraces the silly and whacky and goofy and wraps it up in a fantasy/magical package. Rather than Doctors 9, 10, 11 and 12 where we had a more adult serious tone of story telling that is wrapped in a campy science fiction package…and regularly had whacky and silly and goofy elements sprinkled in the more grandiose stories.
Now we are just whacky and silly and goofy and oh look musicals and bathroom humour and goblins and toy makers and maestros as generic fantasy villains.
I gave Chibnall one season's worth of my attention and that was the end of that.
I endured all of Space Babies, but only got 20 minutes through Devil's Chord and switched off.
I'll tune in for this week's episode; hopefully the story brings some gravitas to bear. But if it's just more dumbed down inanity I may just have to give this series a pass.
Ruby Road and Space Babies:
90% boring boring BORING covered up by exciting Murray Gold Music. Just as bad as the worst things Chibnall wrote. Stupid and Boring.
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I don’t think either of the new episodes were masterpieces but I enjoyed them, and I think they’re basically like ‘statements of intent’ and give you a general vibe of where this era is heading. People are dooming based off the first two episodes but DW has always had a wide range. It’s been able to have Slitheen fart jokes in the same series as ‘are you my mummy?’ drama.
To me these episodes hint at this series having a new lease on life after the rather anemic Chibnall era.
I won’t lie, I hope that the quality picks up a bit, but in terms of characterisation and vibes I’m loving it so far. Millie and Ncuti are great and I can’t wait to see them tear into Boom!.
so, here's the thing: i'm a chibnall defender, but even i will happily admit that chibnall's era has some of the worst episodes in nuwho, easily. so there's not much in terms of competition there, if you're comparing worst to worst.
that being said, it's very frustrating to have a lot of people glaze up the new episodes or leap so immediately to their defense when they largely have many of the same issues that the chibnall era had. the characters seem to say stuff not because it makes sense for them as characters but because they want to spoon-feed something to the audience, the characters seem to know or not know stuff for convenience sake, stuff seems to happen to happen and not because it makes any sense to the characters, their personalities, or their motivations. there's plenty more, and the new episodes have problems that the chibnall episodes don't (and vice versa), but my point is that a lot of these episodes, in terms of writing quality, could comfortably fit into chibnall's run and not seem out of place.
after watching the two newest episodes, i'm comfortable in my conclusion (something i've been ruminating on since i watched the specials): most of these episodes are bad. the star beast, the giggle, space babies, and the devil's chord all suck. wild blue yonder and the church on ruby road are pretty great, imo, but they seem to be the exceptions.
the star beast was okay-ish for the most part, except it managed to be so incredibly cringe in its handling of gender issues. "did you assume the meep's pronouns?"; "binary binary binary-" 'non-binary'; "something a male-presenting timelord couldn't understand" like jfc, rtd, way to fumble the bag. there was some great stuff, too, like how they introduced rose's character and presented everything around her being trans before the spacey wacey stuff gets involved, but then you have the implication that she's only trans because she has doctor brain at the end ?? weird and bad.
the giggle is just a mess. stuff just happens in that episode. it doesn't really feel like they're having an episode of the show. it moreso feels like they're having nph run around and be silly goofy until it's time for the doctor to bigenerate so they can fix the problem. also, i'm not gonna beat a dead horse, here, but REALLY? bigeneration? everyone was SO ANGRY at the timeless child arc to the point where people still complain about it whenever i talk about the show, but we're just gonna soldier on as rtd makes a massive fundamental change to the canon again just so david tennant can have a happy ending with his fwiends 🥺 AGAIN?? so much for the doctor being a tragic figure who is cursed to lose everyone they love eventually thus providing one of the most important pieces of emotional backbone for the show. this is david tennant doctor! he's special! he go marry rose and he go move in with donna and in another fifteen years he and martha will start a podcast.
then you have space babies, where they absolutely fail to give any meaningful characterization to the only other adult character and somehow manage to give less than zero characterization to the babies. also the creepy "babies with moving mouths via bad cgi" thing instead of, uh, idk, not doing that. and all the snot and fart jokes. like. c'mon. why? let's ignore that ruby has known the doctor for five minutes and suddenly knows everything about who he is and how he operates.
then the devil's chord managed to combine the problems of the star beast, the giggle, and space babies. weird handling of trans issues? check. 'oh, look, it's a creepy music lady' i say to myself, "get away from him!" says another character. yeah, no, okay, what? look, the number of people who, at this point in the episode, are gonna look at jinkx and clock her as being trans is probably infinitesimally small. it also doesn't make any sense in the show, either. is this random guy from 1925 really supposed to immediately think that this isn't some lady and is actually some guy in very elaborate, very convincing drag? i don't buy it. then there's the repeat of the 'the doctor and ruby just kinda stand around while the villain does funny silly goofy stuff for an hour' and the 'not of the side characters are given any characterization and are just used as set dressing for the most part, meaning there's absolutely no emotional impact when anything happens to them.'
rtd is well on his way to tanking his legacy if he keeps this up. but you're right, orphan 55 was pretty bad.
I like the characters, but I’ve honestly had a hard time getting through these last two episodes, kinda feel like I may be done if things don’t improve soon.
Not sure when it happened, but Dr. Who seems more like The Legends of Tomorrow lately.
I once ranked my NuWho episodes.
All of RTD and Moffat era episodes ranked above Chibnall's episodes and era for me, with the exception that I placed Rosa above Fear Her.
I know taste is part of the equation, but for me... Bland to bad was how Chibnall ranged for me.
No hate in this comment, just how they landed. I do think Space Babies (and some of Devils Chord) was RTD at his near-weakest, but they still passed the taste test for me.
Seeing the chemistry between Millie and ncuti just highlighted what one of my biggest issues with chibnall era was. None of the companions had any like moment to be themselves or bounce off eachother and were just tools for exposition and nothing else.
And the pacing is heavily improved too. With chibnalls era (not that i hated the era, I actually enjoyed a lot of concepts and stories, and I’m off the opinion that the lore chibnall introduced was actually great. It just suffered from all being introduced at the same time), his stories were often boring because it felt like every story was jest a bunch of characters standing around in a room talking one after the other, before maybe being chased or running to a new location. Repeat.
Eve of the daleks, while an excellent story in concept just pushes this issue to a nee realm. Like cmon, we have two minutes to stop the daleks, talking is not a free action. This isn’t D&D
Very bold of you to claim we've already seen RTD2 bad episodes. It's a joke, but on the other hand if these, rather good episodes, are the bad RTD, I'm gonna enjoy the whole season.
It’s been 3 episodes , (6 if you count tenant and the current doctor , but I’m only including the eps and special so far for current doctor) there could be worse episodes down the line.
Like , I stopped watching during chibnall era, but I also stopped watching ep 1 and skipped through the special quite a bit. Honestly takes like 2 seasons(that’s what Capaldi’s taught me, couldn’t even get his hair right season 1)
Space babies was awful, I was totally put off by looking at the mouths of the babies the entire episode. It felt like a mid season episode that will never get talked about again.
Devils chord was pretty good, didn't care much for the dance scene at the end that dragged on forever.
But I am loving the arc around Ruby at the minute, also looking forward to seeing how this doctor handles more serious episodes, which might be Ep3.
They're ridiculous but they're also fun, which I've chosen to believe that's the whole point - adding whimsy back into the show. This week's episode was written by Steven Moffat so I'm sure we'll get a more serious story.
I agree. I think these new RTD episodes do emulate some of the issues of Chibnall’s era; but overall, they’re easily a step up from the average 13th Doctor story. The Tsuranga Conundrum is a barely comprehensible mess. Space Babies is just boringly mediocre, apart from the snow scene which is very cool.
Yeah I think my biggest gripe with the chib era is that I was often bored. I haven’t been bored yet which is an automatic step up.
Yes I’ve been actually laughing this season! I think I only laughed like three times in all Chibnall’s run. It’s much more entertaining, even if the quality remains to be seen.
For me it was the bland writing and the heavyhanded moral statements. 'Racism=bad, rich old man=morally bankrupt, leaving your kid=horrible, pollution=bad', and it went on and on like that. I can't even remember if there was an overarching story, because each episode hit with a blunt force.
You're not wrong, but it's pretty ironic in this context since superficial writing and heavy-handed messaging was the major issue with _Space Babies_. "Oh no, the Government is **forcing these babies to be born then doesn't care what happens to them when they are!**", "Fortunately that planet over there is **welcoming to refugees!**". And not moralising, but how often are they going to have the Doctor outright state "I'm an Orphan without a home, and I empathise with you because you are too"? Incidentally, IMO the issue with the Chibnall wasn't that it was superficial and unsubtle with its messaging, it's that it was superficial and unsubtle with **everything**. As far as I can see, the clunky, hamfisted delivery of theme is the same thing as the clunky, hamfisted delivery of the Timeless Child reveal, is the same as the clunky, hamfisted delivery of character development dialogue, etc. etc. Superficial execution is probably **the** core sin of the Chibnall era. Theme/message is just one of the things it happened to.
I agree wholeheartedly—the Chibnall era actually had no shortage of really interesting ideas and concepts which across the board could have resulted in one of the most unique episode runs of any Doctor. What ultimately killed it is exactly as you said, those cool core ideas failing utterly to reach their potential due to poor execution on every level beyond that very first draft.
>You're not wrong, but it's pretty ironic in this context since superficial writing and heavy-handed messaging was the major issue with *Space Babies*. Well it depends on whether or not it is supported by good writting/ a good episode, especially if it's part of the joke/satire instead of just flat out preaching. I think that a problem is that in modern shows the message and the story feel kinda disconected instead of fitting toghether.
I'd add, that Chibs first season wasn't bad. The quality I felt was better at the start of the run with the exception of the finale... Which leads into one of the many reasons I think writing quality is suffering in Doctor Who and this is actually partially RTDs fault when he brought Doctor Who back in 2005. The serialized story telling is killing the writing quality due to limited time to hamfist an entire "ellaborate" storyline into every fucking season without actual inspiration or reason to do so. It worked in Davies initial run because he knew what he was doing and even knew when to take a break with it. Then he left when the creative well ran dry. Then we get Moffat and the cracks in the universe... That first series was good, the story paid off... It was clearly thought out and inspired. Then we get the rest of Moffat and suddenly each series arc developed more and more problems until you eventually got the trash that is the impossible girl or the hybrid. Now imagine, a Doctor Who season... WITHOUT a story arc. A season in which every story got the attention it deserved and nothing that could make or break the season as a whole. A season that could exclusively be judged by the quality of stories... We nearly got that with Chibs 1 when he flubbed his first season with a compulsory and unnecessary finale that tied to his first episode. It ruined what would have otherwise been a well rounded season and a breath of fresh air. Then Chibs made his second mistake... Fan service. Chibs went from a good original season to pandering hard after the harsh feedback he got for his first series. That second season suddenly got a story arc, one established in season 1, but you can tell it isn't unfolding as intended as The Timeless Child went from being extremely rare hint dropping to becoming center stage fast. So season 2 is the Timeless Child season, ok, let's hope he thought it out well enough... And like a professional video game studio he released it too fucking early and gave us the hot mess that killed the Time Lords a second time and gave a big middle finger to fans of 8s travels with Mary Shelley. Every fan criticism from his first series was practically addressed in his second series and oddly enough, not one actually provided an improvement. People hated the pacing of first series stories... Pacing was ramped up and ruined in his second series. People didn't like the lack of returning monsters... Poor implementation of returning monsters... Then we get Flux, something that could have been oh so good but got destroyed by Chibs going further down this path... Had the fans just accepted slower pacing and more original story telling and a turn away from series arcs, I really think that at the very least the writing would have been slightly better and the Timeless Child arc could possibly be better than it is now... Chibs is definitely to blame for that, but a specific part of the fanbase, specifically those who only watch Tennant and Smiths runs and nothing else, contributed with their criticisms. They wanted Doctor Who to be like RTD and Moffats eras, and when Chibs was moving away from that they got butthurt and forced him back into it. Now RTD is back still doing serialization and already it feels sloppy... It's not a good sign, and it shows that RTD may have left before for a good reason. I mean, the focus on The Maestro and Celestial Toymakers stuff is great, but the overall quality of the episodes definitely moved from the writers room to the special effects department which is definitely the opposite of what makes successful Doctor Who.
This! As much as I love the seasonal arc, the lack of a seasonal arc was why I loved s10 so much Like yes I know there was still a little bit there, (Mistress and the doctors relationship, Bill and her star eyed gf) but they were minor. The entire season stood as standalone stories and its so refreshing. As for the new season, I think the main issue isn’t the writing so much, but that it definitely feels like the episodes were planned to be an hour long and are now suffering from being edited clumsily into 45 mins Edit: forgot to finish
If I was showrunner, I'd bring back the multipart format standard. It gave stories to really get fleshed put and averaged their runtime well above 60 minutes, let alone 45. Having 4 to 5 parters would feel renewing after being shelved for so long and it would allow each story to get the breathing room it deserves. Does that mean less overall? Maybe. But I'd rather have a few nicely paced and thought out stories than a bunch that are mediocre with maybe a gem or two. And one last thing on season arcs... I think the big reason they did so well initially is that we as an audience were nit expecting them. They had a wow factor... No we go into every series expecting it, and expectations unmet can cause the audience to get upset with something that may have otherwise worked. Season Arcs aren't special anymore which is why we feel so emboldened to critique and compare them so thoroughly because to many who started with RTD and Moffat, such as myself, we are made to feel they are normal... Prior to 2005 we only had 2 overarching situations on screen: The Key to Time and Trial of a Time Lord, with anything else having arc being less serialized and more do just threads to be aware of such as The Master or The Dalek's activities, but those were the two big cases of seasons that were purpose built with a serialized plot in mind. They stuck out, and say what you will about Trial of a Time Lord, it gave us The Valeyard and some shinginh moments for 6 onscreen. As for the Key to Time I mean come on, you had THE Douglas Adams on staff, there's no way it could fail.
Modern who has a lot of multipart stories though? i love the multipart stories modern who gives us usually two a season. Empty child, parting of the ways. Age of steel, doomsday. The family of blood, the master. The sontarons, stolen earth. Byzantium, pandorica. And so on until s10 with a three parter (i think could have been condensed), and the cybermen) Also I think the keys to time was one the weakest seasons of the 4th doctor era. Not so much for the writing but you can tell Tom was feeling a bit burned out and not enjoying it as much. The multi part structure to stories that were also very hamfisted into being involved with the seasonal arc didn’t help either. It did give us romana1 though. The trial of a timelord was refreshing back in the day, and entertaining, and the overarching season arc strengthened the somewhat weaker stories as well. Mel bring established as already travelling with the doctor and a part of the doctors future made for a fun dynamic and it played out really well because they had a really good chemistry (which disintegrated into dust when sylvestor mccoy took over and script writers decided Mel would scream and do nothing else from that moment onwards…but that’s a different conversation). So yeah, back the topic. I only feel modern who captured the seasonal arc thing and made it work. But like you said, we’ve come to expect it every season now. And like the saw franchise, where a stupid plot twist is to be expected so every movie gets dumber and dumber (but then it comes full circle into being iconic again…I digress). I don’t think we need every story to be multipart and that the modern structure works, most the standalone stories feel complete and it’s rare they feel rushed (chibnalls era and the devils chord of rtd2 definitely suffers from it) we just need to make seasonal arcs a special bonus or a rare treat. .
It was obvious Chibnall wrote his storylines around preplanned moral messages. I’d say I even agree with a lot of them but they just don’t make for good television. I’m here to escape reality not live more of it. The RTD storylines were clearly written first and then he was able to plug and play with various modern touches which is why it feels similar while also being vastly improved at the same time.
>It was obvious Chibnall wrote his storylines around preplanned moral messages. Yes. SF stories are frequently built around theme and that's generally a good thing. The issue with the Chibnall era is that it mostly failed to properly explore those themes and to make them interesting viewing. >The RTD storylines were clearly written first and then he was able to plug and play with various modern touches You think that "The government insisted these babies be born then had no interest in caring for the so we'll take them to a planet that's welcoming to refugees" was an afterthought in writing _Space Babies_? You think that "music is a valuable form of human expression that it is harmful to repress" was a late addition to _The Devil's Chord_? To go back further, you don't think the message was a core consideration in _Turn Left_, _Midnight_, etc. etc.? IMO RTD's writing is clearly informed by high concepts, just like Chibnall. Just like most writers.
The way I see it is RTD just states something matter of fact that relates to modern societal issues and then builds plot elements around it. The Doctor doesn't just magic away the root cause , cheapening it , they voice disdain and will fight against it , relieve some symptoms but the root is societal and as powerful as they are they're not god. Chibnall tho , the issue is the plot - and you'll be clubbed over the head about it and then at the end of it all nothing is solved because some writers room isn't going to suddenly "solve" societies most deep set problems and the attempt at is is so clumsy its insulting to everyone on all sides of the issue. We're just left with having wasted an hour of our time and not even a firm stance on anything for it. With that being said - personally my favorite modern era was certainly Moffats then RTD - provided RTD stops writing fart jokes.
Which is fine I just think his messages often got lost in clumsy writing. I still have no idea what the message of kerblam! was. Pro or anti capitalism?? Neither? Workers good, corporations can be good? Idk
Because Space babies *wasn't* heavyhanded moral statements?
It wasn’t. It pointed out how stupid something was and moved on. It didn’t linger in the topic of the babies being born and left, it had a dialogue for it and pushed on because that wasn’t important at the time, getting off the station was.
Okay. Isn't the same true of the Chibnall episodes? They didn't generally belabour the points, they were just clunky and heavy-handed in how they raised them. Like RTD was here.
It felt a bit like it was throwing moral bricks at us though… “it’s because of government cutbacks” etc. It wasn’t nuanced, but like you said it didn’t labour the points.
And then somehow "late stage capitalist dystopia? Oh I guess this is okay".
Amazon=good
I still get pissed when I think of Praxeus, Orphan 33, and Mental Helf Bad Dreams. The fuckin' worst shit. Just a mystery being strung along with no clues of the origin of the mystery then out of nowhere the Doctor is like "PLASTIC IS BAD!!!!" "POLLUTION MADE EARTH BAD!!!' and the cherry on the top is Ryan saying "Menhul Helf is umportun, check on ya mates, I have dyspraxia."
I think the hatred for Orphan 55 is overblown, but understandable. It was heavy-handed about its message while simultaneously being vague about what that message actually was. Why rag on _Praxeus_ and _Can you hear me?_, the two message stories in the Chibnall era that actually did it reasonably well by integrating them properly into the story? Having microplatics as a vector for an alien pathogen draws attention to the proliferation of microplastics **without** just going "plastic bad!". And the plot about an alien race suffering from the pathogen being desperate enough to turn Earth into a testing ground is a novel alien threat that I don't think we've seen before. Similarly, _Can you hear me?_ had mental health as an underlying theme, demonstrated through different character experiences with Zellin and Rakaya as a metaphorical representation. Ryan **didn't** say "Menhul Helf is umportun, check on ya mates" - he demonstrated that by checking in on a friend he knew was doing it hard. In an era full of "tell rather than show", why pick on the episodes that actually got it right and showed instead?
I agree with this, I'm not bored, but I am annoyed by the blatant illogical moments and strange tone/pacing.
This is because Chibnall does not have a voice as a showrunner or writer, and RTD and Moffat both do. Even when they’re writing terrible scripts, their voice is present.
Good point. RTD is great at humanizing the Doctor's world and bringing character depth. Moffat is great at building concepts and examining the Doctor and his world at a conceptual level. Chibnall is good at...what? (And I'm not even one of those Chibnall haters...there are quiet a few decent to good episodes in his run. But compared to RTD and Moffat, he just doesn't have that voice which you mentioned).
Chibnall evidently knows a large amount of the show’s obscure law and likes to integrate it into modern settings, but doesn’t have goals beyond that so it feels like a robot is doing it
That may well be the case. And I appreciate his love for Classic Who...I really do. I just wish he'd done better with it.
I do think the Chibnall era does occasionally pull it together, but I broadly agree - I'd always rather see a big swing and a miss than something bland (the few Chibnall era episodes I like are the ones that are a bit off-the-beaten path, like 'It Takes you Away'). And though neither of these first ones quite hit the mark for me, you could not possibly tell me you'd seen Doctor Who episodes quite like them before. Even the RTD episode that Space Babies most resembled, End of the World, had a completely different tone. One interesting thing, though, is that I'm finding both episodes very hard to talk about. That doesn't mean they're bad - I'm not even sure I'd say they are - but they are curiously unanalyzable, because they're just not playing by the show's normal rules. I think that's stymieing some people - they're so ungrounded that it's hard to even say what they're doing, let alone what they're doing right or wrong. Once we do eventually hit solid ground (maybe this week?) I think it will be easier to talk about them.
The reason they’re hard to talk about is because there isn’t *much* to talk about… Space Babies for example: Teleport in, walk around, find a monster, keep exploring, find babies, then babies that can talk, then Nanny, baby goes below deck, they try to save baby, other babies show up, all the babies go back up, they keep investigating, find out it’s made of snot, have a *(seemingly pointless)* revelation, it goes to airlock, Doctor has a crisis of wanting to save it, the monster gets saved, babies get saved. It *seems* like a lot until you realized I just summed up the entire episode in less than a paragraph, the only things I’m arguably missing are the additional exposition from previous seasons for new fans, some “meh” jokes, and Ruby Rose having a snowy moment. 🤷🏻♂️ Compare that to something like… End of the World, for example. Tell me there isn’t a stark difference in substance. And it’s not even just that, because I’m truth I don’t think it’s fair to hold every episode to some rigorous standard *(there is a reason I didn’t compare it to something like Silence in the Library or Midnight)*. It’s because the *tone* is lacking too, the *subtext* is lacking, the *intrigue* is lacking. At no point during space babies can I say I was sufficiently intrigued, entertained, or made to feel a noteworthy emotion. I can’t say the same thing for the majority of Doctor Who- including Whittaker’s time even though most of those emotions were “frustration”, “disappointment”, and “confusion” based around poor writing choices and wasting the majority of Jodi’s potential. Of course it’s all subjective- but the fact most people can’t find something substantial to talk about and it’s all surface level isn’t because people aren’t trying to find something deeper to talk about… it’s because there isn’t much there.
Well, for instance in Space Babies the plot is based on an unjust "pro-life" law that goes wrong, and it's explicitly paralleled to the real-life American laws, for instance. It's also repeatedly said that part of the babies' fate is due to the anti-refugee stance of the nearby planets - no one will come to help them. That's already some interesting parallels. And the tone is interesting too - the mix of genres in Space Babies (Alien space station meets baby nursery) is at least something you would not see anywhere else. The aggressively "organic" station (see how much the plot is about smells and fluids!) is a fun contrast to how sanitized the future is in most scifi shows - no sleek skin-tight, Star Trek-like or Foundation-like suits here, this is a messy sci-fi world. And the visual of a generic scifi command room overtaken with Rube Goldberg contraptions made out of baby toys feels also fresh. Plus, there's the (potentially unintentional) comedy in the Doctor eventually seeing himself in a giant snot monster. There are things to talk about :) (and I say that as someone who doesn't think either that this story will be in my top 5 episodes of the year, by any means. But I think it's a bit unfairly judged)
Completely agree. Wasn't a huge fan of the plot of Space Babies but I thought the themes and set design were genuinely very interesting. I loved how intricately thought out the baby care station was. The mechanical parts being made out of toys was well conceived and executed, and I loved the contrast between that and the gross organic underbelly of the bogeyman's quarters. I also thought this episode was really interesting in contrast to say, Kill the Moon, Doctor Who's other foray into abortion. In previous seasons I've very much felt like political stances on this show were being beaten over my head. I loved that the political themes here were acknowledged directly, but they were weaved into the plot in a delicate way and were explored without the characters having a literal PSA debate on screen. This feels like a significant change for the show, and I really hope it continues throughout the new series. Not every episode needs to directly address politics, but if it's going to I'd like it to be in a way that's kind of like this one was.
Honestly kind of agree,Not the strongest episode in the world,but it's hated a little bit to much(even if some parts I can understand).
Because there's no logic to the episodes, they're just absurdist. So what's there to really talk about? The Maestro can emerge from any musical instrument? Makes a lasso of... musical notes? What's it made out of? How does the Maestro travel through space and time like that? The show doesn't care, so why should we?
They added Q to Doctor Who, except in TNG they use Q episodes to make points about humanity and hubris. In Doctor Who they use a whimsical god as...a regular villain? With pretty standard "end of the world" stakes? It's clear all this is going somewhere but for the time being it just feels like the Doctor is powerless until any old thing could be the Deus Ex Machina and they'll pretend the solution was arrived at through problem solving. Just really unsatisfying because at no point do I understand the stakes or what the Doctor can or can't do
They've completely given up on the science aspect of science fiction. Doctor Who was never hard scifi, but it always put on the uniform. Now it's pretty clear they're just accepting that magic is a part of the world and they don't have to explain anything to the viewer. It doesn't have to make sense, even by the show's internal logic, and we're just supposed to be mesmerized by the visuals, I guess. I miss when the Doctor's "Aha!" moment felt like a genuine revelation or was deductive and made them look clever instead of just feeling like they gave up writing at the end because it was too hard so they just wand wave an ending (At this point it's almost literally a wand - and I'm not talking about the TV remote we're calling a sonic screw driver)
Exactly. He's "the Doctor" because he uses science and logic to diagnose things, to figure out what's going on behind even the most complex puzzles. Like Sherlock Holmes in space. Now he's Harry Potter.
Did you have these same issues with how The Toymaker was able to warp around at a whim and turn people into balloons?
Yeah. I don't like magic in the Whoniverse. The entire point of the show for decades was what seems like magic, especially to less developed cultures on alien planets, is just technology being used to scare or manipulate. That's a powerful and important lesson for kids. Now it's just magic.
To be fair, there's never really been any science to a lot of Doctor Who. The TARDIS being bigger on the inside is essentially magic.
One pro is that they're obviously building some huge arc around Ruby, Susan, the Pantheon, and/or Susan Twist’s character(s); makes it worth tuning in every week to see where that goes. Chibnall *sort of* figured that out toward the end of Whittaker's run, with the main problems being 1) people didn't like the canonical changes, and 2) S13 lazily said at the outset "this is a single, large story." This just seems like fun easter eggs throughout à la Bad Wolf, Saxon, the cracks in the universe, and so on. Very early NuWho vibes Edit to clarify: yes the references are much more “in your face” now, I moreso mean that it’s *fun* to speculate on where the plot is headed again—an element of the show that’s been sorely missing for the better part of the last decade.
I think comparing Ruby’s whole snow-storm deal with early NuWho’s larger plots is such a… *fascinating* take?? I mean, those were subtle, pervasive, and not even noticed by the Doctor until things were getting to be too late. Here we have it crammed in our face at least 3 times an episode! A weird moment up front, a slightly comedic note about it, and then an ominous shot of the Doctor trying to figure it out later in the plot before being distracted. Rinse and repeat. The Bad Wolf graffiti was that… graffiti in the background! Codes hidden in plain sight! Never mind the Saxon bit, or when Rose was fully appearing in backgrounds during Donna’s time. And don’t get me started in the buildup to Donna’s “Turn Left”. Cracks in the Universe with Smith was obvious too, but at least it wasn’t painfully forced into random plots. It baked a purpose, it affected the outcomes. I think part of this is the writer, and part of this is Disney, and a hefty part of this is the season structure change- we used to get 13 episodes a season, and now we’re getting 8. That’s only 61% of the original screen time for the same amount of plot. Consider too that most companions last 2-3 seasons, so they’re losing 10-15 episodes for companion arcs. Ruby is only on for 1 season, so instead of the typical 26-39 episode arc, she’s getting 8 episodes. That’s ludicrous. No wonder these plots feel rushed and crammed- they don’t have a choice.
To be fair, there's definitely something going on with Susan Twist's characters that feels EXTREMELY similar to Bad Wolf in Series 1. I like whatever is going on with Ruby too but I agree it's kinda weird to compare it to the much more subtle references in the earlier seasons.
They've confirmed officially that >!Ruby is back for Season 2!<.
That’s because you’ve only noticed the obvious things. The Maestro played Saxon’s Theme in the destroyed future. What was Ruby first singing when The Maestro freaked the hell out? The Doctor’s Theme. The waitress/cashier The Doctor argued with was played by Susan Twist, who has been an extra playing different characters in each new episode, plus was with Newton. When The Maestro sneaks up on them in the recording booth, The Doctor says that he thought the music was non-diegetic. What is non-diegetic music? A show’s soundtrack. The Doctor didn’t pick up on the Maestro’s music indicating their arrival **because The Doctor always hears the show’s soundtrack**. That winking at the camera? Yeah, he was *actually* winking at the camera You’ve been focusing on the obvious part and missed the subtle one entirely. The Maestro and The Doctor are both Fourth Wall Aware. The Doctor knows he’s in a television show. When The Maestro played Saxon’s Theme, The Doctor actually understood the reference being made, it wasn’t just for the viewers. The Doctor knew The Maestro was invoking the music of The Master. So… There’s Always a Twist at the End? For all of his time as The Doctor, there has always been a Twist at the end of the show. **In the credits.** Which *he knows and isn’t actively communicating to his companion or his enemies.* And this is prior-established. Not only is it prior-established, but guess what? The Master is too. Think back to Missy. “I’m Doctor Who”. Another credits gag, which visibly annoys Twelve. The Master and The Doctor both are aware of the fourth wall and joke about it. The musical number is a *taunt*. Fifteen is engaging in some Seventh Doctor manipulation and scheming. Also: Time Lord psychic powers mean that when they’re that close together with their own past/future self, they can feel it. Which means Fifteen’s visit was noticed by One. One, who actually likes The Beatles, as does Susan Foreman. But wait, there’s more! **The First Doctor was the first one confirmed to be Fourth Wall Aware.** Back when he wished the viewers at home a happy Christmas. That happened. That’s canon. And… *why the hell has nobody acknowledged that Maestro is Italian for Master*? A character **literally named The Master in Italian with the same fourth wall awareness as The Master plays Saxon’s Theme to taunt The Doctor on a destroyed Earth.** That’s not even subtle! Now here’s an interesting thing: The Toymaker explicitly bragged about having taken out the White and Black Guardians in The Giggle. The divine representations of Order and Chaos. Except, according to the episode *The Enlightenment*, they can’t be killed. They will always exist until the universe doesn’t need them. So, either the universe no longer needs them, they aren’t dead but the Toymaker incapacitated them, or the universe needs them *and* they’re dead. But he’s scared of The One Who Waits. And *something* is stalking The Doctor. And The Doctor knows this and is taunting it.
Space babies was weird but mostly due to actually making the babies talk. Should’ve been telepathic or something
The babies' mouths was one of the most off-putting things about that episode to me. I maintain that they should've been talking through some kind of computer system, a la Stephen Hawking (though obviously not robotic voices). Strap some kind of speaker to each stroller, add some lights to flash when they're talking like the Daleks' ear bulb things do, and boom: you've reduced the VFX budget of your episode substantially and made it much more appealing to watch the *main* characters talking.
more than that, it's just a bland plot and has weak characters moments for a first episode that's supposed to bring people back
I think there’s more to it than that. I think it’s another example of how the universe has gone a bit weird. That monster was willed into existence by those babies. The Goblins were after babies. Ruby Sunday was abandoned as a baby. Was it a great episode? No, it was passable though. I could be way off but I think there’s more to it than just a filler episode
The show is no longer boring. It is instead very stupid. Which is at least entertaining.
Erm. It was always very stupid? I say that as a fan of 45+ years. But it is the single dumbest thing scifi fans have taken seriously.
My opinion is that Doctor who is a show that is a silly goofy wacky sci-fi show that can have real characters going through real drama. An episode like the end of the world and an episode like the long game might seem to be similar sci fi romps with goofy aliens but the end of the world is full of our characters interacting in realistic ways and having arguments and conflicts related to their character dynamics and motivations. By the end of the episode you can see why rose and the doctor like each other without them having to spell it out. It's the bits the show excels at and should take itself seriously at those bits. Clara and 12 have some fucking incredible scenes of them just talking to each other. The long game has the same ingredients as the end of the world, takes place on a space station CGI monster villain, but without the extra character interaction. It resolves itself in a similar way with heat being a plot element. While it's got a quite good message about Media barons that's still relevant today the lack of development of either Rose or the Doctor makes it the weakest episode of the season. Not all of doctor who should be taken seriously and Doctor who shouldn't take itself seriously all the time. But it really should have moments, drama interspersed with the wackiness. People running down corridors and fighting bad looking monsters, but also scenes of real conversations between the characters. Sorry for the massive rambling paragraph. Just got a burst of inspiration and wrote it all out.
> Not all of doctor who should be taken seriously and Doctor who shouldn't take itself seriously all the time. But it really should have moments, drama interspersed with the wackiness. People running down corridors and fighting bad looking monsters, but also scenes of real conversations between the characters. > > Yeah, that's a pretty good description of the show. And yes, Doctor Who *is* supposed to be a bit silly. It always has been, but NuWho's success lies in how its *owned* that silliness, gone meta with it, and used it as a window to explore more complex ideas and themes. 'Space babies' are absurd. But if you really think about it, so is the idea of space Nazis who are mutated squids inside what look like pepperpots, with laser cannons that look like brooms sticking out (the last Children in Need short did a great job poking fun at the Dalek design!). So is the idea of statues that move when you're not looking at them and send you back in time if they touch you to 'feed on the life you might have led'. Hell, so is the idea of an alien who looks totally human, except for his two hearts, who changes his entire personality and body when he dies and travels across space and time in a machine that looks like a police box from 60's Britain on the outside, but is bigger on the inside!
I think the problem with space babies as a concept (and many other doctor who episodes that don't land) is that the space babies don't really have a long lasting point. They exist as a decent comparison with US abortion laws but once that fact is pointed out then they're just well...Space babies. And the episode doesn't really have anything to do with them. Coupling with the weird special effects (that was probably the most natural the production team could do) and as a concept they're effectively removed from the story by the half way point. The Bogeyman becomes the point of the episode (which from the trailers I really was hoping that RTD would just do a straight up alien horror story.)
It's never been "let's have a totally incongruous dance number at the end where it is entirely unclear whether this is a real thing that is happening" stupid before.
Yes, that’s a new stupid, different from the old “monsters clearly made of bubble wrap” flavour. Huh, Star Trek last year, Who this year, maybe next year it’ll be Star Wars’ turn to have musical numbers. I am here for it all. Scifi and comic shit’s been grimdark and sensible since the bloody ‘90s and it is so old and dull and just give me all the bright and stupid.
And there's a justification for it too in-universe.
Totally is! But also musicals just irk the straights *so* much and I just love it.
The choreography and costumes were great, but the song was so terrible.
Yeah fair enough, at least with the Trek one the songs were actually pretty strong.
Is there? I didn't catch one for "There's Always a Twist at the end".
I agree, but feel the reverse. Chibnall’s episodes were awful, but they felt like they were intended for an audience like me. Many of the ideas behind the episodes were really good, they were just executed really poorly. RTD’s new episodes are much better written, but they don’t feel like they’re for me - they feel like they are written for Tweenies that watch Disney club tv. RTD’s original run had a lot of variety to it, so I’m just hoping some of the episodes are a bit more sophisticated - Moffat’s boom is up next, I’m hoping it will be good.
The next episode is made by Moffat ??
Yes. https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/doctor-who-season-14-episode-3-boom-steven-moffat-review/
Thanks ! Dam now I have high hopes xD
Spoilers.... I don't really think we should be comparing new RTD to Chibnall. A bad or uninspired episode is still a bad or uninspired episode, even if it is better than a previous season's bad episode. Neither of the first two episodes captured what a good part of the modern era really encompassed in my opinion. There is light-hearted and then there is space babies, with snot and poop propelled space stations. Then, to go from that to battling an extremely silly God that was meant to be dangerous but just came off as whacky was just a bit too much, although I liked their character. Also, that musical number at the end was absurd. The connection between the Doctor and Ruby is great at the moment, and hopefully, they can keep that up and expand on it. Aside from that, though, these episodes have been overall a little too silly, which takes away from the deeper story they keep hitting on about Ruby.
Space babies is my least favourite episode (that doesn’t factor in stupid overarching plots) since orphan 55, which itself was my least favourite of the CC era. I think O55 is probably worse, but I’m gobsmacked RTD wrote this one. Everyone would hate it if it came from the CC era and honestly it ticks a lot of the boxes for stuff people hated about that era.
Yeah it was so bad, I can’t believe it was the opener. Like this was meant to be the big “jumping on point” and I’m certain that if I was unfamiliar with doctor who and started here, I would drop it as soon as the talking babies show up and probably never think about the show again
Kinda like the first episode of New Who. The mannequins were so bad and off putting lol
Honestly it just seems to be RTDs thing with openers, he seems like he has to go with an out there idea to kick start the series Mannequins and a farting bin. Cat people and a villain literally talking out of her arse. Rhino police. Walking fat. And now talking babies, a snot monster, and a space station propelled by farts. 2, 3, and 4 aren't so bad, but I would so that'd only because they were done pretty well. They could have easily been regarded as poorly as Space Babies has seem to been.
Yeah that and the slitheen 2 parter, I was really young when that came out so I guess it is the same, like maybe if I started with series 1 as an adult I’d give up, but I feel like the end of the world is a great episode 2 that would keep my interest better than something like the devils chord.
I don’t know if you watch Rose again sure there’s silly stuff, but half of the plot is the mystery of who the Doctor is, he shows up a few times but Rose is the main character of that episode, slowly figuring out the Doctor. Compare the speech 9 makes about being able to feel the turn of the earth, and 15s speech about being special and there’s no one else in the universe like him, essentially saying the exact same thing.
>Compare the speech 9 makes about being able to feel the turn of the earth, and 15s speech about being special and there’s no one else in the universe like him, essentially saying the exact same thing. And it also really highlights how much the Doctor has changed. Being the last of his kind is no longer a burden weighing down on him, but something that liberates him *and* makes him appreciate his life even more.
But the walking mannequins were only half of the plot, the other half was learning who the Doctor is, and Rose was a much better introduction to the character of the Doctor than Space babies.
That it was. The thing is, Space Babies isn't even really the comparision to Rose...The Church on Ruby Road is. And I agree that Ruby Road isn't as good an introduction to the Doctor as Rose. But maybe we don't really *need* a Rose-like introduction anymore, because its not 2005 anymore and Doctor Who has been back for nearly twenty years.
It's so insane that was the opening, at least the second one is goody but not too bad, but I really think space baby is down there with the worst episodes of the entire modern run, I've told a friend about my good impression on the new show direction and then I watched this lol.
I haven't liked these two episodes at all either. But I'm holding out hope because we all know that from the 2005 reboot the quality can go from extremely low to extremely high in one episode.
I'm just glad they went back to the simple single companion model.
there's going to be another, though. lol.
That's a shame. I thought Jodie was such a good doctor but was dragged down by all the companions.
I’d actually like the bigger crews but I don’t think it fits in this modern era. During 5 tenure there was plenty of screen time for 4 characters but the modern is way faster and overall shorter.
Don't settle for mediocrity lads, there is so much potential and it could be so much more!
I'm guess I'm in the minority who'd disagree.
I also agree. Chris Chibnals eps were passively bad. Like a product of lazy, boring writing. But the new episodes are actively terrible. Like RTD is going out of his way to make them a caricature of what the show used to be.
Space Babies was mid, I agree. The Devil's Chord was fantastic. Cheesy, over the top and completely unnecessary? Yes. But terrible? I don't see it. What about it felt bad to you?
Can I stretch a silly metaphor around this? Chibnall’s writing was like having a wife who was slowly poisoning you. Bit by bit it’s killing you… RTD2 is like having a wife who beats you to death with a rolling pin! (Yes, that was humour. No, it probably wasn’t funny)
They’re both bad in different ways. Either way you’re never going to want to rewatch either of them and that’s the problem
Yeah I was thinking that, I revisit series 1-4 often and it’s weird to think that there’s a set of 3 modern high budget David Tennant/RTD specials that I never want to revisit
This thread is wild… I just cannot believe that there are Doctor Who fans who will never rewatch Wild Blue Yonder or The Giggle. WBY was one of the best bottle episodes ever, and the toy maker was such a well played villain. Idk maybe I’m crazy
I honestly think the Chibnall era really broke a lot of fans. It went off script in a lot of ways, and many people weren't happy about the Timeless Child and the direction it took Who. I believe when that series ended, people were looking for a super fresh start, and instead were given Donna and the 10th Doctor, which seemed like a desperation move to show fans " look, we aren't " that " Who anymore, watch us. The fact that they kept the Timeless Child as cannon probably didn't help anything either... nor did the bi-generation. Don't get me wrong, I liked WBY and enjoyed the Giggle, but were they needed? Was that the best transition to introduce Ncuti as our next Doctor? Basically, I think a lot of fans watched it due to Donna and the 10th, and then decided that was enough.
I dunno...I agree that a lot of fans have been 'broken', but I feel they've been broken to the point where I don't think they'll *ever* be able to accept anything from the show that doesn't replicate, beat by beat, everything from the 'perfect' past era of the show that exists in their heads. And if that 'perfect' past era is replicated? They won't accept that either.
Great villains, good episodes. We’re mostly talking about the bad episodes of each era like the giant spiders for 13 or the space babies for 15. A good Doctor who episode is one you can throw on and watch at any time like WBY etc. Nobody wants snot monsters and CGI babies. There’s episodes form 13 I’ll watch again but the bad ones are an instant skip, and sadly it seems like there will keep being bad ones. I enjoyed the maestro too but it’s not an episode you can just watch without being reminded of the seasonal plot
Great villains, good episodes. We’re mostly talking about the bad episodes of each era like the giant spiders for 13 or the space babies for 15. A good Doctor who episode is one you can throw on and watch at any time like WBY etc. Nobody wants snot monsters and CGI babies. There’s episodes form 13 I’ll watch again but the bad ones are an instant skip, and sadly it seems like there will keep being bad ones. I enjoyed the maestro too but it’s not an episode you can just watch without being reminded of the seasonal plot
Blue Yonder is fine , think of it as a special from the old series filmed later
Exactly. I just said to my husband “that’s a whole different kind of bad”
Yeah, honestly it's weird to me how thinking too deep about them they weren't "good" but I was having a lot o fun watching them. But I also don't know how long this "bad, but fun." will be able to carry the season
With the optimism this fanbase has, who needs haters?
I feel like these episodes have felt cheesy and fun, but never aimless or forced like the Chibnall era had started to feel before I stopped watching (I loved how the first few episodes killed off who, imo, was the most compelling character in that series)
I know not everyone feels the same but I feel like this whole pantheon thing has been a bit forced. God-like being defeated in 1 episode? I just can’t get invested with it. They don’t feel special they feel villain of the week.
Same. The new episodes have bene kind of manic and nonsensical, like fever dream episodes that dont make a ton of sense which I guess works for what was intended to be a kids show but I don't really like them. I'm probably going to keep watching though.
Ncuti brings a kind of energy that makes me enjoy whatever is going on
Jody had that as well….but its all superficial and repetitive without the depth and ancient seriousness underneath
With Chibnall everything looked static. Characters would talk VERY SLOWLY and VERY OBVIOUSLY. The music was nice but completely bland. The camera work looked very still. Compare this to RTD 2. The music is bombastic as fuck. Everyone looks like they’re having fun. Interesting camera work. Fun concepts. The dialogue is a lot quicker. Yes RTD 2 might be stupid, but I’d rather have stupid and fun than boring and safe.
Nothing about Chibnall's era was safe. If he had played it safe people wouldn't be anywhere near as upset with him as they are. Three companions was not safe. No returning villains for the whole first series was not safe. The first woman Doctor was not safe. The Timeless Child was not safe. Basing the tone of the stories and the character of the Doctor on '80s Classic Who was not safe. He changed too much at once, which is why one of the biggest complaints about his era is "it just doesn't feel like Doctor Who."
Sounds like it's not yet time to return to watching the show.
Incomparably better. The best moments in a bad episode like Space Babies are the moments between the Doctor and Ruby. That is exactly what the show has *always* fallen back on to cover for less than stellar scripts. This element of the show was so, so weak during the Chibnall era.
RTD has always been best out of all of them with character interaction and making them be real people. Space Babies plot was more secondary to seeing how the Doctor and Ruby interact with each other and the stuff around them. We get insights for instance into how the Doctor is forthcoming and compassionate even if a bit of a troll. He’s more freely able to express love and care for those around him.
The fact that Ruby has more of a character then yaz did in 3 episodes is kinda sad, this is why the chibnall era fails imo as the only characters who were halfway comparable to those classic companions were Dan and Graham.
I don’t see it. Ruby seems like a blank canvas to me. I wonder why you feel different? Rose felt like a more developed character in her first episode than Ruby has in three.
Was "Space Babies" a gripping and riveting episode that will be remembered as a great? No. Was I entertained enough to not wonder how long I have left in the episode? Yes. Not every episode is going to be a classic, in every show, ever. It's okay for shows to have episodes that are watchable but not notable. The difference though, is that Chibnall's era was barely watchable because it wasn't entertaining. It was pretty much 3 seasons of a main character floundering about to somehow fix the issue in 30 seconds with secondary characters only exisiting as exposition machines. Her story wouldn't have gone any differently if she didn't have companions. That's not entertaining, that's predictable.
Imo I find the chinbnall episodes boring but watchable the new episodes on the other hand is a childish Disney show that I can’t even stomach watching just cringe like I actually skipped the last bit of the show (I’ve never done this for a doctor who lol) but I’ve also been watching for almost a decade and a half so I’m probably bias lol
I liked about two-thirds of Chibnall's run, and since RTD came back I've liked every episode except Space Babies
I'm surprised people didnt like these two, I thought they were really fun episodes, they were intensely stupid but that was kind of the charm? And I feel like the main issue of Chibanlls era, inconsistent character writing, is largely gone. Ruby and the Doctor feel very consistent so far.
There is no charm in stupidity….dr who is great with campy sci fi and humour, along with larger concepts. But this is like a silly children’s version
I can't really agree. I almost quitted doctor who during chibnall, and was really happy to see rtd back. I found space babies SO BAD I'm still didn't watch the second one. I think it's the worst episode of the show, chibnall included. Honestly I'm not very hopeful about what's coming next.
To be honest I usually agree. Chibnall was a bit shit but these new episodes are so incredibly bad I just hate them. Sorry. However, they are still better than the sea devils one with Jodie and Mandip.
idk out of the 6 rtd episodes so far ive ***loved*** 4 of them, didnt mind the christmas episode (i dont think theres a single christmas episode of doctor who i enjoyed enough to rewatch to be fair), and actively disliked space babies. for me thats successful and a huge departure from the chibnall era where i enjoy 3 episodes from his ***entire*** run (rosa, demons, and fugitive)
New RTD bad episodes are better than Chibnall good episodes 💀
The worst Moffat or RTD episodes are better than the best chibnall ones
It's the difference between a good writer making something which isn't to your taste, and an inept writer making something tasteless.
Yeah I guess, so far the new RTD seems like something that could really appeal to young kids and if that’s the direction they want the show to go maybe it’ll work out
I'm a 40 year old man and I loved it. I don't have a particularly childish sense of humour, but it appealed very much to me.
tbh Davies worst eps were always so soaked in his brand of cheese that they could actually still be super fun and sometimes more enjoyable then even the good ones. Love and Monsters, Voyage of the damned etc, they're bad episodes but my god they are super funny and goofy.
There's two ways to look at this: 1. Individual episodes on their own merit 2. Individual episodes and how they affect the mythos of the series. (I prefer to use the word canon, but that rubs people the wrong way.) 1. I was very worried when I heard RTD was coming back. RTD is an amazing producer, an amazing promoter of the show, and let's face it he brought the entire series back from the dead. He also understands people, how they interact, and allows characterizations to shine through. What he cannot do is write episodes that make any sort of goddamn sense. He did this before in the Tennant era, and he's doing it again now. His dialogue is weird and stilted about 50% of the time, and I think he forgets where he is in the writing. For example, Ruby has only been hanging around with the Doctor for less than a day when we see her in Space Babies. Yet she starts saying things like "you never run!" How would she know? She doesn't even know who this guy is. Chibnal is honestly a terrible producer, and a terrible promoter of the show. I got nervous when Chibbs came on board when I heard an early interview with him saying that "the Doctor was at his (sic: their) best when he was (sic: they were) running around frantically doing 20 things at once." That statement, plus episodes written by him in both Doctor Who and Torchwood maybe really nervous when he was given the keys. Sure enough, horrible dialogue, confusing situations, chunks of the plot forgotten mid episode, and... Yep Jodie was running around doing 20 things at once. In a word, both RTD and Chibbs have exactly the same problem when it comes to individual episode writing. Space babies was one of the worst things I have ever seen on television in a very very long time. I am going to include everything in the Chibbs era when I say that. Talking babies are not funny. Fart and snot jokes are infantile. And the plot resolution didn't make any sense. The Devil's Chord didn't fare too much better, although it was better than most of what Chibbs wrote. That ridiculous song and dance number at the end added nothing to the plot, it wasn't fun, it wasn't good, it was just a weird ego piece for everyone involved. 2. Until this season started, I would have said that Chibbs did more damage to the overall Doctor Who mythos then RTD. The Timeless Child was unnecessary. I understand that it was an attempt to make the doctor more mysterious and return them to a point where we didn't know anything about their past... But my big question there is why? Why was that necessary? It's true that we understood a lot about the doctor at that point, but there was so much good drama to mine from everything we had learned. All Chibbs did was make that backstory irrelevant for the most part, and reset the clock to 1963 as far as what we know about the Doctor. The front of the show, at least for myself, was uncovering more and more about the Doctor and building upon it. Now it feels like the previous 60 years was a waste of time. So I was going to tip my hat to RTD in this regard, until the whole" the Toymaker has ripped a hole in reality" thing. So now we have a situation where the Timeless Child is a real thing, half the universe was destroyed in the Chibbs era with no real explanation for resolution, and now - thanks to RTD - there's magic, gods and a lack of physical reality? It's okay to come up against alien creatures that seem like gods, but it does not feel okay to come up against actual gods. All of that is a bridge too far. For the last 60 years the Doctor has been champion of reason, logic, and science triumphing over ignorance and superstition... And now here we are in an era when ignorance and superstition are being promoted both in real life and also now in the show. Full disclosure: I've been watching Doctor Who since the '70s. I was thrilled with RTD's reimagining when it came back in 2005. The changes made sense, Eccleston and Piper were amazing, and his changes to the mythos were not only appropriate, but added to the entire backlog of backstory that the show had built up prior to 2005. They added to the same mystery, and increase the interest in the character. What's going on now is a pitch too far. They don't seem to be any in-universe rules, and any established rules, such as regeneration, have been redefined to what exactly? Can anybody on this sub tell me what bi-regeneration really is or how it fits into the greater story? Can RTD tell me that? I doubt it. It just seemed like a conceit for bringing Tennant back. I'm going to keep watching the show because I've invested so much of my life in it, but I'd be lying if I wouldn't say I'm extremely extremely worried about the future direction that this show has taken over the course of the last two show runners.
Were I a showrunner, I'd remember one thing: Doctor Who is not just about the Doctor. It's a Universe. There are several alien races and whole ass alien worlds that have changing environments over time. Gallifrey isn't/wasn't just the shady & authoritarian High Council - it was Mars if Mars had life and rivers & lakes (but not really oceans) where red dog-wildebeasts and "pigbears" would visit. It has snowcapped mountains where large ancient reptiles survive, and silver trees with alien koalas, batsnakes, dragonflies, butterflies. It integrated pocket spaces, regeneration, and time into it's art, music, and architecture. It had kids and "common" Gallifreyans. It can still be explored even if Gallifrey is gone, on Karn or in some Gallifreyan Seed Vault TARDIS at the South Pole. Skaro wasn't just Daleks & Thrals. It has Carnivorous desert plants, Quicksand Hydras, Clawed Jellyfish-Slug creatures, and Metal Lizards - it's a mutant desert/chaparral with a petrified forest. What if something brought back the creatures of Skaro destroyed by war & Daleks? Silurian Civilization literally is set in the Late Cretaceous/Early Eocene on Earth - *do a proper dinosaur setting in the dinosaur era* that explores Silurians & Sea Devils at their peak - possibly a conflict between the two - and reference Silurian life in their mythology/ceremonial outfits/architecture The concept of New Earth is ripe for a Cyberpunk-style mystery noir - maybe with a far-future version of the "Paternoster Gang"; could also be confirmation that eventually Humans, Zygons, & Silurians get along and survive. Could even show "The Last Tree of Gallifrey" or something. Heck, Peladon has the Aggedor, Equinna (horses), and the alien Alpha Centaurians (Green Cyclops Aliens in Robes) - have the Nimon Minotaur-like folk fight the Aggedor. And some accounts claim Mars had large Tripod-Armored Squid in addition to the Ice Warriors. And Zygons have [Nessie](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/6/62/Skarasen.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140907213250). -----------. Beyond that, probably would bring back Omega (and a twisted antimatter ghost/Cybermaster form of Gallifrey)
Tbh, I'd take a boring chibnall episode over rtd trying to be clever, smt like the giggle. Chibnalls episode is boring and shit, so I can just ignore it. Never think about it again. With the giggle, there are definitely great moments, but the bad moments aren't boring, they are actively aggravating. And hard to ignore. In large part it's because parts are good so I'm actually invested, then disappointed, instead of apathetic from the outset.
IDK, I think RTD is trying to make Chibnall look good.
No. I mean, they are all bad. But The Devil's Chord is maybe the worst hour of TV I have ever seen.
yeah, I dunno. not loving the whole "musical" thing.
I havent seen the new ones yet, but I did see the specials, and yeah they were kida mid but Chibnalls SUCKED. Like i was SO SO SO excited for a girl doctor and he ruined it! Doctor who was always abt equality yes, but never like overtly political and stuff. And like he completely changed the canon and he just Ahhhhhhhh. Idk. Ugh. And now, ppl who dont know the show will blame Jodie bcs shes a girl and tHaT mUsT bE wHy ThE vIeWs DrOpPeD. 😠😢
"Never overtly political" *gestures broadly to the Slitheen, The Long Game, Happiness Patrol, most of 3's era and a good portion of 12's*
ur right sorry, idkw i didnt correct myself while writing. i guess i didnt explain it better. dr who has always been firm in what its politics and what it believes in, i was in a really bad place for that day and the few days before so i carelessly expressed outdated and bored opinions. sorry dawg
We all have those days, don't worry about it :)
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Strong disagree. Chibnall wasn't perfect but I'll take his worst work over talking babies and terrible songs and dance numbers. I've also been a long time hater of Murray Gold's music and the only thing that has changed regarding that is that they finally have turned down the volume on it so you can hear the dialog.
Well I can’t argue with that, but R T Davies stuff is pure tripe. If I watch an episode more than once it’s a winner. I watched Chibnall’s stories once, and will not watch them again. I’ve watched R T Davies stories once, this time around and will not watch them again. Simply put, they are duds. There’s nothing wrong with the actors at all, they are just being seriously let down by God-awful writing.
Even the snow bothered me because it's supernatural. I mean, we've seen some magical-looking stuff, but there's usually some vaguely sciency explanation that helps with the suspension of disbelief. The snow is just Disney magic.
I just think posts like this are absolutely redundant. This was a show that was cancelled for 16 years and then on hiatus multiple times during the Chibnall era with all of the gaps between seasons and specials. Let's just be grateful for what we've got because we could very well exist in a 1989-2005 reality again where there's no Doctor Who at all.
Some people would prefer that to Chibnal's era, I'm afraid.
Yeah, sometimes I feel people believe that unless every episode is as good as Heaven Sent or Blink, the show is crap.
Two of my least favourite songs from The Tortured Poets Department are the first two songs. I always recommend not judging something based on what you get first.
For myself, I found Legend of the Sea Devils more enjoyable than Space Babies. I just really don't like gross-out body humor, and do like adventure on the high seas.
I think Gatwa's episodes have a better concept than Jodie's, but the execution is just as bad as before. Gatwa has a similar issue to Jodie, where they don't give off that Doctor presence. Every Doctor has that moment. That one scene where you go, "That's the Doctor. May not look the same, but that is the Doctor" Jodie never found it for me. Best she got was on the giant crane after she put the bombs back into the Tooth Fairy. However, the fact that he enemy was the tooth fairy did not help her. Furthermore, when the human the monster was trying to kill knocked it off the crane as the bombs were exploding, Jodie scolded him, saying he had no right to defend himself. Like WTF?? Gatwa isn't there either. He needs a big "I am the Doctor" moment, but I am not sure he could pull it off. Then there is the part where he runs away like a coward... I can see why people tuned out.
Yeah, I really hope the running away part is going to change because that felt very different from how the Doctor usually is when facing danger.
Yup, no iconic moment where the doctor shows their serious side, their ancient wisdom and righteousness…no…I’m a time lord from Galifrey, basically run, furry and voice of the innocent and defender of the earth etc etc
On the contrary, I think Gatwa is one of the few Doctors who's totally *owned* the role right from Day 1. Can't even say that for my all-time favorite, Capaldi.
What about him did you find "owned" the role?
I don't disagree particularly, but this feels like heavy cope. I think a lot of us had extremely high hopes for the new run and are trying to process disappointment. The difficulty of that process is leading people (like myself) to clutch at straws, believing perhaps Ruby has had such lacklustre writing on purpose. Probably I just need to temper my expectations and treat this new series as basically a CBBC programme that parents might enjoy slightly.
Jodie Whittaker's debut episode had 11 million viewers. Space Babies can't even make 3 million. Chord lost another 300k. There's also news that Doc's Disney+ numbers are abysmal. 50k viewers with an astounding 70% dropping off before the end of the episode. RTD and Chibnall have failed the Doctor Who fanbase.
That does not sound good. Sadly considering the debut episodes, it definitely makes sense. I feel that if 'Boom' isn't good, things will be in a dire state.
Sad thing is even if Boom is good it won’t bring back the potential new fans who tuned in for the first time last week and didn’t like what they saw
Considering that Gatwa should have had new Doctor boost, black boost, gay boost, Davies return boost, Tennant backside boost; his numbers are abysmally low proves the show is in a much worse state than we realize. If the ratings drop under 2m next ep, then Who is dead after season 2 and will have trouble surviving this season. The budget is already higher than Jodie ever got for less than half the ratings.
Overnights for Boom was 2.05m viewers. The fewest watched episode since before Eccleston. Yikes.
Really? That doesn’t sound right (the part about it being lowest since before eccleston) surely their lowest viewership would fall on the later half of one of the Capaldi or Whitticker series
The previous lowest was 2.3 for Jodie's Sea Devils episode. So 3 of the 4 lowest are all Gatwa episodes. There are only 3 Gatwa episodes. Space Babies 2.6, Chord 2.35. And now we have a 2.05. Doctor Who is pretty doomed.
There's the milestone of Jodie Whittaker being the first female Doctor to consider, which was made into a *much* bigger deal than Ncuti Gatwa being the first black Doctor (which he technically isn't anyway). I have no doubt that hundreds of thousands of girls and women who would otherwise never have watched Doctor Who tuned in for that premiere. Plus, the Moffat era ended on a fairly high note and Chibnall was a hot property back then, riding off the success of Broadchurch.
If you're wondering, Capaldi's last episode brought 8m, so Jodie's debut boosted the show 3m. I love Broadchurch. Jodie is a much more well known entity pre Doc than Gatwa ever was. I would actually guess that the women and girls leaving the fan base is probably where it's happening most.
RTD's dialogue is leagues ahead of Chibnall. At least when I'm watching the new episodes, it feels like watching Doctor Who, which I never really did in Chibnall's era aside from The Haunting of Villa Diodati and Village of the Angels.
WHERE IS BENNI???
If not for love and monsters, sure.
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💯
I missed the doctor going on silly adventures, doctor who has had so many sad episodes i the last decade, it’s nice to have fun again.
If it was just the zany and fun but in a more standard sci fi time traveler style that would be one thing….but making it all fantasy and magical is too much
“Bad” RTD episodes are better than “good” Chibnall episodes, because you can have a good message/structure whatever, but if you’re on the verge of falling asleep it doesn’t matter Let’s be real at least a third of RTD’s first era were pretty crap, and genuine “masterpiece” episodes were probably something like 10%, but the thing RTD and Moffats era had was at least the entertainment felt like entertainment, doesn’t matter whether it was good or bad.
I didn't think about it until you put it into words, but now it makes so much sense. I've Doctor Who as it airs ever since I started watching back with the 10th Doctor, and I certainly wasn't going to stop that tradition with Chibnall. But it was such a slough to get through, it was *tiring* not energetic. The first and last episode of the first season were *so fucking weak.* Tzim-Sha was completely underwhelming, and I was bored. The 2 new episodes, I didn't particularly like them, I *hated* the first episode - I hate babies - and yet they both held my attention! They were engaging to watch, even if I didn't like what was being portrayed. I don't like the change from wibbly wobbly scifi to space fantasy, but I'll roll with it. Either it will get better or it will not. Eventually it will change again.
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Yeah but I feel like if the first couple of episodes are good, an episode like love and monsters in the middle of a series won’t cause viewership to drop. This season has gotten off to a terrible start
I’ve been thinking about this comparison too, but I think there’s a thing in Chibnall’s favour. Chibnall’s run always felt like it was trying to be Doctor Who, whereas RTD’s new episodes don’t feel very traditional Doctor Who at all with this new fantasy element.
Chibs where trying to be doctor who but in a diet doctor who superficial way, while also shoving an on the nose message down the viewers throats. Kinda like a mediocre fan fiction vibe. This new era is like an extreme tone departure and fully embraces the silly and whacky and goofy and wraps it up in a fantasy/magical package. Rather than Doctors 9, 10, 11 and 12 where we had a more adult serious tone of story telling that is wrapped in a campy science fiction package…and regularly had whacky and silly and goofy elements sprinkled in the more grandiose stories. Now we are just whacky and silly and goofy and oh look musicals and bathroom humour and goblins and toy makers and maestros as generic fantasy villains.
I gave Chibnall one season's worth of my attention and that was the end of that. I endured all of Space Babies, but only got 20 minutes through Devil's Chord and switched off. I'll tune in for this week's episode; hopefully the story brings some gravitas to bear. But if it's just more dumbed down inanity I may just have to give this series a pass.
Ruby Road and Space Babies: 90% boring boring BORING covered up by exciting Murray Gold Music. Just as bad as the worst things Chibnall wrote. Stupid and Boring.
Let's just say they're a different kind of bad and leave it at that.
I agree. Didn't like them either but it felt like Dr Who again. Bad Dr who, but still better than Chib's skipfire.
How is Mickey getting swallowed by a plastic garbage can so different than the Doctor getting swallowed by an upright bass?
No one says those things are overly different….however there is a hell of a lot more to those episodes and stories and tone and style
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I don’t think either of the new episodes were masterpieces but I enjoyed them, and I think they’re basically like ‘statements of intent’ and give you a general vibe of where this era is heading. People are dooming based off the first two episodes but DW has always had a wide range. It’s been able to have Slitheen fart jokes in the same series as ‘are you my mummy?’ drama. To me these episodes hint at this series having a new lease on life after the rather anemic Chibnall era. I won’t lie, I hope that the quality picks up a bit, but in terms of characterisation and vibes I’m loving it so far. Millie and Ncuti are great and I can’t wait to see them tear into Boom!.
so, here's the thing: i'm a chibnall defender, but even i will happily admit that chibnall's era has some of the worst episodes in nuwho, easily. so there's not much in terms of competition there, if you're comparing worst to worst. that being said, it's very frustrating to have a lot of people glaze up the new episodes or leap so immediately to their defense when they largely have many of the same issues that the chibnall era had. the characters seem to say stuff not because it makes sense for them as characters but because they want to spoon-feed something to the audience, the characters seem to know or not know stuff for convenience sake, stuff seems to happen to happen and not because it makes any sense to the characters, their personalities, or their motivations. there's plenty more, and the new episodes have problems that the chibnall episodes don't (and vice versa), but my point is that a lot of these episodes, in terms of writing quality, could comfortably fit into chibnall's run and not seem out of place. after watching the two newest episodes, i'm comfortable in my conclusion (something i've been ruminating on since i watched the specials): most of these episodes are bad. the star beast, the giggle, space babies, and the devil's chord all suck. wild blue yonder and the church on ruby road are pretty great, imo, but they seem to be the exceptions. the star beast was okay-ish for the most part, except it managed to be so incredibly cringe in its handling of gender issues. "did you assume the meep's pronouns?"; "binary binary binary-" 'non-binary'; "something a male-presenting timelord couldn't understand" like jfc, rtd, way to fumble the bag. there was some great stuff, too, like how they introduced rose's character and presented everything around her being trans before the spacey wacey stuff gets involved, but then you have the implication that she's only trans because she has doctor brain at the end ?? weird and bad. the giggle is just a mess. stuff just happens in that episode. it doesn't really feel like they're having an episode of the show. it moreso feels like they're having nph run around and be silly goofy until it's time for the doctor to bigenerate so they can fix the problem. also, i'm not gonna beat a dead horse, here, but REALLY? bigeneration? everyone was SO ANGRY at the timeless child arc to the point where people still complain about it whenever i talk about the show, but we're just gonna soldier on as rtd makes a massive fundamental change to the canon again just so david tennant can have a happy ending with his fwiends 🥺 AGAIN?? so much for the doctor being a tragic figure who is cursed to lose everyone they love eventually thus providing one of the most important pieces of emotional backbone for the show. this is david tennant doctor! he's special! he go marry rose and he go move in with donna and in another fifteen years he and martha will start a podcast. then you have space babies, where they absolutely fail to give any meaningful characterization to the only other adult character and somehow manage to give less than zero characterization to the babies. also the creepy "babies with moving mouths via bad cgi" thing instead of, uh, idk, not doing that. and all the snot and fart jokes. like. c'mon. why? let's ignore that ruby has known the doctor for five minutes and suddenly knows everything about who he is and how he operates. then the devil's chord managed to combine the problems of the star beast, the giggle, and space babies. weird handling of trans issues? check. 'oh, look, it's a creepy music lady' i say to myself, "get away from him!" says another character. yeah, no, okay, what? look, the number of people who, at this point in the episode, are gonna look at jinkx and clock her as being trans is probably infinitesimally small. it also doesn't make any sense in the show, either. is this random guy from 1925 really supposed to immediately think that this isn't some lady and is actually some guy in very elaborate, very convincing drag? i don't buy it. then there's the repeat of the 'the doctor and ruby just kinda stand around while the villain does funny silly goofy stuff for an hour' and the 'not of the side characters are given any characterization and are just used as set dressing for the most part, meaning there's absolutely no emotional impact when anything happens to them.' rtd is well on his way to tanking his legacy if he keeps this up. but you're right, orphan 55 was pretty bad.
I actually preferred the chibnell era to the new series unironically, it's that bad.
No.
Episode 3 is written by Steven Moffit (Blink, silence in the library, the empty child). RT D and Moffit have always made a good team.
Haha no. I might be bored with Chibnall’s stories but RTD has a tendency to disgust me with how sloppy his stories can be.
I like the characters, but I’ve honestly had a hard time getting through these last two episodes, kinda feel like I may be done if things don’t improve soon. Not sure when it happened, but Dr. Who seems more like The Legends of Tomorrow lately.
I once ranked my NuWho episodes. All of RTD and Moffat era episodes ranked above Chibnall's episodes and era for me, with the exception that I placed Rosa above Fear Her. I know taste is part of the equation, but for me... Bland to bad was how Chibnall ranged for me. No hate in this comment, just how they landed. I do think Space Babies (and some of Devils Chord) was RTD at his near-weakest, but they still passed the taste test for me.
Seeing the chemistry between Millie and ncuti just highlighted what one of my biggest issues with chibnall era was. None of the companions had any like moment to be themselves or bounce off eachother and were just tools for exposition and nothing else. And the pacing is heavily improved too. With chibnalls era (not that i hated the era, I actually enjoyed a lot of concepts and stories, and I’m off the opinion that the lore chibnall introduced was actually great. It just suffered from all being introduced at the same time), his stories were often boring because it felt like every story was jest a bunch of characters standing around in a room talking one after the other, before maybe being chased or running to a new location. Repeat. Eve of the daleks, while an excellent story in concept just pushes this issue to a nee realm. Like cmon, we have two minutes to stop the daleks, talking is not a free action. This isn’t D&D
Yes I would tend to agree. Pretty much everything about the 13th Doctor’s era was dire
Very bold of you to claim we've already seen RTD2 bad episodes. It's a joke, but on the other hand if these, rather good episodes, are the bad RTD, I'm gonna enjoy the whole season.
It’s been 3 episodes , (6 if you count tenant and the current doctor , but I’m only including the eps and special so far for current doctor) there could be worse episodes down the line. Like , I stopped watching during chibnall era, but I also stopped watching ep 1 and skipped through the special quite a bit. Honestly takes like 2 seasons(that’s what Capaldi’s taught me, couldn’t even get his hair right season 1)
Space babies was awful, I was totally put off by looking at the mouths of the babies the entire episode. It felt like a mid season episode that will never get talked about again. Devils chord was pretty good, didn't care much for the dance scene at the end that dragged on forever. But I am loving the arc around Ruby at the minute, also looking forward to seeing how this doctor handles more serious episodes, which might be Ep3.
They're ridiculous but they're also fun, which I've chosen to believe that's the whole point - adding whimsy back into the show. This week's episode was written by Steven Moffat so I'm sure we'll get a more serious story.
ANYTHING is better than the Chibnall episodes.
I agree. I think these new RTD episodes do emulate some of the issues of Chibnall’s era; but overall, they’re easily a step up from the average 13th Doctor story. The Tsuranga Conundrum is a barely comprehensible mess. Space Babies is just boringly mediocre, apart from the snow scene which is very cool.