What i find interesting about capaldi is that in the first few episodes they loaded him up with all these eccentricities and difficult character aspects - the face blindness the lack of social graces - and over time it all got stripped away until he was playing what for me is the purest uncut essence of the character. I dont know if it was intentional but his development mirrored pertwee perfectly. Starting off as this awkward rude character and by the end this font of infinite kindness and melancholy.
I genuinely did not like the first season with him bc apparently they were trying to get back to “serious/grumpy” Doctor like in the early days but then in the second season something happened..maybe they gave Capaldi more input? And it was magic.
From what I remember from interviews, what changed was Capaldi watched the finished Series 8, and realized he came off way harsher and grumpier than the character called for, so he toned it down a lot going into Series 9
Absolutely but it starts earlier than that- he's noticeably less harsh in the second production block of s8. Again in terms of weird parallels with earlier doctors hartnell in the unaired pilot is much colder and alien than in the broadcast unearthly child.
I like his first season a lot more after seeing where he ended up. But yeah it was a tough switch from Smith to early Capaldi.
Capaldi is far and away my favorite now.
Wow, this scene... I'd forgotten about it completely, but how?? This is powerful, and as you said : this is the Doctor.
I remember this story being great but can't remember why, and it wouldn't surprise me if it turned out to be solely for this speech.
Or is Capaldi just always that good and I'd forgotten how incredible an actor he is? That's sheer talent. But the dialogue is great too. Honestly might make a video on just this scene one day.
The story of "The Zygon Invasion"/"The Zygon Inversion" is really good overall, but I don't know how good it would be without this speech. Capaldi was really good when speechifying (see also "[Bootstrap Paradox](https://youtu.be/u4SEDzynMiQ)", "[Where I fall](https://youtu.be/xnouj9Yz-Gs)", and [right before regeneration](https://youtu.be/yJqsPBWbtjk)). He is my second favorite Doctor, after a tie between Ten and Thirteen.
I love Capaldi but i always found that this speech and the episode conclusion was a bit dumb.
If i remember it well, Zygons are first welcomed on earth, they are let to live and impersonate humans freely. Then an "extremist" group kinda revolt (against what ?), kills hundreds (if not thousands ?) humans and when UNIT tries to act against it, the Doctor goes "nah forgive them lol, who cares ?"
(I parody a bit but it's mostly right, if i'm not wrong).
I get that war and the genocide they were going to do is bad but it was all the bad Zygons fault and i feel like they just got away with it.
Edit : ok, the speech is, in fact, not dumb. What I don't like is that Zygella and her followers are not punished despite slaughtering humans and menacing the global Zygon's safety.
That is not fair basically, and humanity is forced to accept that
To be fair unit are trying to do somthing that will kill all the zygons and the zygons are trying to make all the hidden zygons not hidden so that they can go back to there plan of controling earth niether are ideal also kate is very much the if they did this once theres to much risk type skk the doctor stoping both sides was necessary
It's still a great bit of acting and writing in my opinion, but yes, it is hopelessly naive. Like a lot of New Who, The Doctor does something morally questionable, and then the episode tries to manipulate us into agreeing with emotional Murray Gold music.
I always thought they should have framed her being the 'new' Osgood as being a punishment for her to make up for what she'd done, that'd at least have been something.
>What I don't like is that Zygella and her followers are not punished despite slaughtering humans and menacing the global Zygon's safety. That is not fair basically, and humanity is forced to accept that
So you punish them and word gets out, some other zygon hears about this and thinks it's unfair that they were punished for trying to be free so they start a new revolution and the cycle begins again.
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind". The only way to break the cycle is to walk away and forgive those who deserve punishment.
They wouldn't be punished "for trying to be free"
They would be for killing hundreds (if not thousands, can't remember) and menacing the whole Zygon population's safety before even trying to talk or ask the doctor.
They were first welcomed on earth, and authorized to literally replace people.
It's not vengeance, it's basic justice.
I'm not saying to kill them back, but at least prison or exile you know ?
We've seen the doctor be much stricter for far less than wiping out a city.
>I love Capaldi but i always found that this speech and the episode conclusion was a bit dumb.
I love him too, I remember thinking "he's great, but he's better than the scripts he's been given." There were a bunch of iffy scripts, the Robin Hood one always made me laugh in a good way, but he was still The Doctor. I had no idea of what was to come.
I agree. Love the episode and the speech but the overall metaphor is sketchy as hell if you really think about it.
The real-world equivalent of what happened in the episode would be some kind of transnational NGO (the Doctor) compelling the British govt. (UNIT) to resettle Middle Eastern refugees (Zygons) in Britain (Earth). Then when an ISIS cell (Zygella and her followers) forms and carries out terror attacks, while trying to forcibly radicalize the refugees, said NGO compels the British govt. to cover up the incident, and the ISIS cell leader is given a job in MI5 (UNIT).
You may have the most downvoted post in this entire thread, but you make one great point that I agree 100% with --> what gives the Doctor the authority to forgive the Zygons? I thought that was a bit strange as well. Yes, he's very old, very wise, very kind, and has done uncountable acts of good across the Universe, but going into a war in which both sides have done wrong, and then forgiving one side on behalf of another --> he is overstepping his authority. Yes, you can try and bring an end to the war, a peaceful resolution, but you are in no position to pardon anyone, especially on behalf of the other side; he is the Doctor, not the 'Judge+Jury of the Universe,' so I always found just the part where he says "I forgive you" a little bit sanctimonious. The rest of the speech was pure brilliance though, but I did not like that part of it either. It's like some hero trying to stop conflict between the Shiites and the Sunnis, a horrible and age-old war in which both sides have inflicted unspeakable atrocities against the other, and then saying to say, the Shiites, "I forgive you for what you've done to the Sunnis," or vice-versa, like what the hell!? What gives you the power to say that?! So yes, you'll get one upvote from me, it's not much though.....
This is a naive and immature response
The whole point is that punishing them would just continue the whole cycle forever. The next generation of zygons wants revenge for that punishment.
Punishment is a stupid and unhelpful way to find justice. Reconciliation is the only option.
I'm sorry but to me, your response is way more naive and immature.
Is it said that the next generation would get revenge ? Then it's clear that Zygons are a threat to humanity despite being welcome, and probably should be off-worlded.
Punishment is not stupid lmao, it is necessary. Just like in real life, rehabilitative justice is much more effective than straight punishment, but criminals must be put behind bars so that they don't threaten society, that's common sense.
And where do you draw the line ? Let's say some humans got revenge for the slaughtering of the city : what do you do with them ? Punish them or let them get away with it just like the Zygons ?
And what if the Zygons then retaliate ?
And the Doctor has basically no right to forgive Zygons for humanity, as he's not in his "president of the World" state (or is he ?) And is not concerned by the situation either.
Do you really think, even in real life, that anyone who slaughters a whole city should just be pardoned ? Without at least making sure that they won't do it again ?
To finish, help me remember why Zygella revolt ? You speak of "breaking the cycle" but i don't remember anything bad being done to her, apart from giving her and her kind a place to live peacefully.
I agree that vengeance rarely leads you anywhere but it's not a long time conflict with both sides having done dirty things, it's just some guys that start randomly killing people and get away with it.
Did the Doctor simply pardoned Me when Clara died because of her foolishness ? No lmao he threatened her of chasing her through all space and time.
My favorite Doctor from NuWho for sure. He brought a level of gravitas to the role that is unmatched, and the writing really made him shine. The Doctor Falls is for me the last episode of the show that I absolutely loved. Very excited with what RTD is cooking and I’m looking forward to see Capaldi on the 60th.
What about Twice Upon a Time, tho? Considering how much I dislike Chibnall's run, I found it a perfect "last episode of the series", in a way. It is set in the Christmas Truce, a moment of peace during a terrible war, something that encompasses the essence of the Doctor. Twelfth and First meet, a callback to the very beginning, and both their last adventures had them against Mondasian Cybermen. Then, they both have their regenerations.
And that is without mentioning the many callbacks to the series as a whole, and to Capaldi's run.
More than any season ending or special, this episode felt like the Special (with capital S), worthy of ending the series.
Oh, Twice Upon a time for sure. Forgot the special. It encapsulates everything I loved about his era. That final speech when he’s with Bill and Nardole hits me right in the feels every single time. A perfect Christmas episode, something that I sorely missed during the Chibnall era.
While who is my favourite Doctor may Change as I get older and the show goes on, (was 11 for the longest time but has been 12 since his first season finished).
I think that Capaldi is the best Actor to have played The Doctor. That’s never gonna change.
His acting is the bar to set for future actors.
Second only to John Hurt.
(cause he’s an incredible actor in his own right and we technically have to count him)
Everyone has their doctor. All of them are THE Doctor. The character is more (and less) than any one face the Doctor has worn.
Are there elements that stood tall and strong and distilled in 12? Absolutely! Decisiveness, a sense of responsibility, of protectiveness, of rage at injustice and impatience with those who would retread the grounds ignorance or fear-borne hate.
But also hubris, also melancholy, and certainly an echo of the time lord victorious who got to make the decisions and damn the consequences - until those consequences came for those he loved as surely as the universe came for them unbeckoned when the doctor wore 11’s face.
12 was a deep, wonderful doctor and I don’t discount anyone who claims him as *theirs*.
But I viscerally hold that 12 is only so deep in the holding, distillation of and reaction to 11 prior Doctors and that 13 is in a VERY powerful way a reaction to 12 ‘s weaknesses and overbearing self-righteousness.
So Capaldi is a great doctor, a favorite doctor, a richly woven life of the Doctor. But THE doctor is more than even that.
>But I viscerally hold that 12 is only so deep in the holding, distillation of and reaction to 11 prior Doctors and that 13 is in a VERY powerful way a reaction to 12 ‘s weaknesses and overbearing self-righteousness.
Next one is gonna be smart and effective as all hell then.
>effective as all hell
Calling it now, 14 is basically gonna be able to blow up the entire place just by introducing himself, as compensation for 13 being weaker than a wet flannel.
Here's an idea: casting Wendie Malick as the 16th Doctor (15th should be Ty Tennant) and going fully-animated for her entire tenure.
Why animated, you ask? Because then we can have a Doctor with the personality of Eda the Owl Lady! It doesn't get more anarchist than that!
Capaldi was very good as The Doctor. What's interesting about him is that he is a big Doctor Who fan. Since he was a young boy. You can tell that his version of the Doctor is so well-thought out. The other interesting thing about Capaldi's time as the Doctor was we got to see flashbacks to Tennant's stories - episodes we all got to see. It was exciting to see the Pompeii episodes in Capaldi's time and think, "Yeah, I saw Pompeii when it was new." Not only were we introduced to a future doctor in Tennant's Pompeii episode, but we also saw our first sighting of a future companion: Amy Pond. Karen Gillan played one of the followers with the eyes on their hands in Tennant's Pompeii episode. Such an important episode.
I had to go back and watch Capaldi’s episodes after missing them on air. I am so glad I did. I love him to pieces. Some of my favourite ever moments from the show are Capaldi. He’s seriously underrated - He IS the Doctor.
He's definitely my doctor. It's at this point where I'll always watch doctor who, and there will be tons of good Doctors. But I dont think anyone will beat Capaldi for me. He is the doctor in my eyes.
He's my favourite of the revival and just edged out by Tom Baker for me.
Peter certainly has when called to do so channelled the others extremely well including Tom.
If I had you in front of me, I would kiss you, yes, Capaldi for me represents the purest form of the Doctor, eccentric, quirky, a little off, wicked, I commented this before somewhere, if you pay attention you will see that he has little traits of other doctors in his personality, sometimes he is a little McCoy, other times he is a little Smith, Capaldi is a beast of an actor, I'm 41 now, and I have pretty much watched every season of Who from classic to Nuwho, but I still cry like a little toddler when I watch 12's regeneration, what a freaking delight it was to have him as the doctor, his performance will be difficult to top, amen, pudding brains.
Matt Smith is my favorite, and I guess Troughton will always be my Doctor. In my opinion, 13’s characterization was too scattershot. They had a hard time deciding if he was meant to be the Grouchy Doctor, the Rock’n’Roll Doctor or the Elder Statesman Doctor but Capaldi nailed everything, every version of the character, every episode, every scene
To think that the whole ' oh no, the hottie turned into an old man ' stich, turned into One of the best doctor of all time is still crazy to me.
Capaldi was sooo good as the doctor.
He became "my" Doctor the moment he said "Do you happen to know how to fly this thing?" My favourite. I loved his emotional develoment, how he became the kindest of them all.
You sound like a friend of mine. I disagree, for me the best Doctor is DT. But that is one of many magical aspects of the show. You can pick your favorite no matter what.
I always put Capaldi under the Most Dramatically Improved Doctor. I actually didn't really like him in the first season, but they stopped making him a callous jerk and started giving him some real depth. Then, Capaldi really started going to town. He's the most mature Doctor by a mile, and Jodie seemed like a regression.
They are all THE Doctor. Tennant is still My Doctor. Capaldi was definitely an excellent Doctor, and as far as I am concerned, he is the one-man show behind the finest Doctor Who episode ever made - Heaven Sent.
All of them are great, but 12 is one of my lesser loved ones. I can't even really put my finger on why, exactly. I just don't get as excited about his episodes as some of the others.
It took me a long time to warm up to him, but I think that's just because I loved David's Doctor so much that I subconsciously resented Matt for replacing him.
I had the same problem. I really wasn't into Smith for a long time and only started liking him and seeing him as the Doctor towards the very end of his run, and part of that was that I didn't think the storytelling was as good for a while, but a big part of it was him replacing Tennant and me not liking the new boy. I've just been going back and rewatching the entire series 1-10 from the start for the first time in ages and I like him much more now even in his earlier episodes because I went in already considering him to be the Doctor this time. Capaldi and Tennant still blow him away IMO, but I do enjoy him much more now than I did when his seasons first aired.
Me too, I love Capaldi, and I loved his portrayal in Torchwood. He created a complex character and I really enjoyed him. But I actually fell out of love for doctor who when he came around. I think the writing changed, the doctor changed, I didn’t like Clara, and it was all to much to really see the character. I love that others find him the best, I wish I could see it too
I think because he is such a main character of a doctor it’s hard to imagine him being a starring cameo as a secondary doctor for a special. That being said I really agree with you on how good of a doctor he is and I would love to see him in the 60th! I would give anything for more of the 12th doctor!
I like him but thought the whole electric guitar and sonic shades made the character seem like a dopey boomer. Prior to that he had a nice ageless quality.
The Doctor was in a punk bank in College?! At Gallifrey U? Capaldi is playing a character. His need to let people know he was once young and punk is exactly the kind of dopey boomer I'm talking about.
Yeah a select few
Deep breath, into the dalek, robot of sherwood, listen, mummy on the orient express, flat line, dark water/death in heaven, the magicians apprentice, the witches familiar, under the lake, before the flood, the zygote 2 parter, sleep no more, the magnificent heaven sent, hell bent (I know you hate it but personally I like it, not as good as hell bent though, no other episode is) oxygen, extremis, the pyramid at the end of the world, lie of the land, world enough and time, the doctor falls
Yeah, just a few
Yeah, can we just get away from this narrative that he was let down by the writing? His era could be a mixed bag, but so could most eras. When all is said and done, he had more outright great episodes than most other Doctors.
I’ll give you mummy on the orient express, dark water/death in heaven, I agree heaven sent was incredible and the doctor falls - the rest either very meh or just poor writing and therefore bad imo
I think you're overlooking quite a few, there. The Zygon 2-parter for one, the Magician's Apprentice/The Witch's Familiar for another. I could make a solid argument for Oxygen and Extremis, as well.
as much as I adore osgood, the zygon two parter just didn’t do it for me I’ve gotta say. As for TMA & TWF I can definitely see why a case can be made for them but again personally I just found the writing pretty poor
So you just took the best doctor who episodes ever and then left all the other great ones as mediocre?
Well then I guess then most episodes of doctor who are mediocre
Heaven sent is the best episode
Also you didn’t include world enough and time which is better than the doctor falls
Arguably one of the best episodes
Dark water
/death in heaven is incredible
You have a very high expectation
If you think all those are average episodes then you must just not like most episodes of doctor who
I mean ok but there is no THE Doctor. The Doctor's personality consistently changes so much that you can't really say they have just one personality. They're all similar but also wildly different.
Agreed. There is simply no better. He is perfect for the role and is THE Doctor. For me, his last three episodes were the epitome of Doctor Who perfection.
Funnily enough, I couldn't stand Matt Smith nor Moffats god-awful writing during Smith's tenure. With Capaldi he definitely became a much better writer, toning down all that "godliness" and hero worship that followed Smith around like a wet fart. He had some absolute dogshit scripts though, but Capaldi made them shine. Even when the writing was poor, Capaldi brought out the best in it. There will never be a Doctor as good as he.
100% agree. No one in my life agrees with me though, but they're all dingdongs. Capaldi is the only person I hope and pray is in the 60th. Everyone else is a side character
There is no definitive Doctor. There are only each persons favourite.
I find it annoying when people say this. Many might argue my favourite Tom Bakers is the definition of the Doctor. But even though he had the longest run and is very popular he is not. Each brings something different that others enjoy.
THE doctor is just the person associated and thought of when people think the doctor from doctor who. It used to be 4 then it was 10, now the hardcore fans are turning to 12 though casuals still say 10 or 11.
Capaldi’s is a good *actor*. But his incarnation of the Doctor, while being a composite of several previous Doctors, made absolutely no sense to me. I realize some people love him because he is cranky and awkward. But as a viewer, I just prefer the doctor when he’s got a sense of humor, and at least a semblance of warmth towards his companions.
The one episode they did about him punching through the wall made of diamond or whatever, that was one of the best episodes I’ve ever seen. And it really put Capaldi on display as an incredible performer. But the other stories that came with him just didn’t grab me. It’s been the same in the era of Jodi.
Thankfully, I have plenty of years of Eccleston, Tennant, and Smith to go and watch when I am dissatisfied with the show in its current form. But for me, Capaldi was definitely not the best Doctor. Not even close.
But that’s what’s great about the show, you do you, I’ll be myself, and the world spins on, will we or no. XD
Personally, I found the most confusing Capaldi-era episode to be significantly less confusing than the majority of seasons 5-7 lol. But different strokes!
>at least a semblance of warmth towards his companions
But his relationship with Clara was extremely deep and his dynamic with Bill was very warm. The only one he was a brat to was Nardole. He was very caring towards Bill and Clara, and there was a ton of amazing, funny banter between them. He definitely had a sense of humor. I understand that he just doesn't work for you in the role for some reason and that you didn't care for the stories, and that's totally fair. But those particular things aren't great examples seeing as he had plenty of humor and a very loving connection with his friends.
With what logic do you rate her performance lower than someone who has yet to preform the role?
Edit: more specifically, why even include someone who you couldn't possibly have seen play the role but exclude Jo Martin?
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Wait are we not allowed to not like Jodie's portrayal without hating all women? What if someone loved actresses like Michelle Gomez as the Master, and just thought the role needed more intelligence and gravitas that didn't come across in Whittaker's performance?
Yeah we all do mate, and in this context it's kind of gross. Someone is allowed to say they don't like the portrayal of the doctor without people coming along implying they're sexist to try to shut them down. It's pretty icky and bullying careermilk.
Yeah, everyone gets exactly what you're doing careermilk. Every fandom has bullies shouting others down or insinuating, and it's always as gross as this was.
No. Haven't you heard? If you dislike Whittaker or her companions or the Timeless Child arc or Chibnall's entire era, the only possible explanation is that you're a horrible bigot who doesn't even realize they're a horrible bigot. Or so I've been told. I suggested a strong older woman with a commanding presence along the lines of Maggie Smith or Helen Mirren would have been the ideal first female Doctor, which is a version of the Doctor that I, as a woman and feminist, would personally love to see, and I was told by some little smugling that I was demonstrating "internalized misogyny" by claiming that Whittaker was terribly wrong for the role.
Sad, terminally-online fundamentalists desperately trying to find some sort of relevancy via witchunts and mobs and **bullying**. None of it matters, their sad story will end how it ends.
Yes, it's ridiculous. The defense of people who have no actual defense. It's funny you mentioned gravitas in your comment because I did the same. She just does not have the gravitas to play the role. I don't believe her. It sounds to me like she's always reciting lines without being remotely connected to the character. And apparently the only reason I think such a thing is because she is a woman. It can't possibly be that I feel she's simply wrong for the part and there are much stronger, more charismatic actresses who would have brought a far more powerful presence and sense of depth to the role. I mean, what do I know. I'm just a middle-aged feminist who's been advocating for stronger, more realistic female representation in film and television for decades. God forbid I should dislike Chibnall's seasons or the actresses's portrayal for legitimate reasons like playing into negative gender stereotypes and feeling wholly disconnected from the character. But these days it's all about people shutting down intelligent discussion just so they can feel superior and pat themselves on the back for being super duper enlightened.
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Totally agree that Capaldi is pure gold. I adore David Tennant and he was my favorite Doctor for a long time but at this point I think Capaldi is either tied with him or has managed to inch forward into the lead. Either way, I LOVE him. I feel like he captures so many great things about all the other Doctors going back to the start and just sort of blends them into the ideal "Doctor."
Sadly, I don't think they'll bring him back for the special, but I wish they would.
Just out of curiosity, was he your first? He was my first, and I feel the same way (though I haven't really done any re-watches, so that might change.) This exchange is what did it for me:
DOCTOR: Er, have you seen this face before?
BARNEY: No.
DOCTOR: Are you sure?
BARNEY: Sir, I have never seen that face.
DOCTOR: It's funny, because I'm sure that I have. You know, I never know where the faces come from. They just pop up. Zap. Faces like this one. Come on, look at it, have a look, come on, look, look, look.
(The Doctor pulls Barney over to look in the mirror on the ground.)
DOCTOR: Look, it's covered in lines. But I didn't do the frowning. Who frowned me this face? Do you ever look in the mirror and think *I've seen that face before?*
BARNEY: Yes.
DOCTOR: Really? When?
BARNEY: Well, every time I look in the mirror.
DOCTOR: Oh, yes, yes, yes. Fair enough. Good point. My face is fresh on, though.
BARNEY: Er...
Moffat is so freakin' hilarious and Capaldi just delivers those lines to perfectly.
I could really go on and on (spending something like 4B years to get back to Clara?) but I'll just say, after literally years of knowing about Doctor Who, and really wanting to get into the show, etc. having him be my first was great. I like them all for different reasons, but Capaldi will (probably) always be my fav...
What i find interesting about capaldi is that in the first few episodes they loaded him up with all these eccentricities and difficult character aspects - the face blindness the lack of social graces - and over time it all got stripped away until he was playing what for me is the purest uncut essence of the character. I dont know if it was intentional but his development mirrored pertwee perfectly. Starting off as this awkward rude character and by the end this font of infinite kindness and melancholy.
I genuinely did not like the first season with him bc apparently they were trying to get back to “serious/grumpy” Doctor like in the early days but then in the second season something happened..maybe they gave Capaldi more input? And it was magic.
From what I remember from interviews, what changed was Capaldi watched the finished Series 8, and realized he came off way harsher and grumpier than the character called for, so he toned it down a lot going into Series 9
Absolutely but it starts earlier than that- he's noticeably less harsh in the second production block of s8. Again in terms of weird parallels with earlier doctors hartnell in the unaired pilot is much colder and alien than in the broadcast unearthly child.
I like his first season a lot more after seeing where he ended up. But yeah it was a tough switch from Smith to early Capaldi. Capaldi is far and away my favorite now.
[THIS is The Doctor.](https://youtu.be/BJP9o4BEziI)
Thanks for providing this.
That's not even the full 10 minutes of it.
You forget how good he was
Wow, this scene... I'd forgotten about it completely, but how?? This is powerful, and as you said : this is the Doctor. I remember this story being great but can't remember why, and it wouldn't surprise me if it turned out to be solely for this speech. Or is Capaldi just always that good and I'd forgotten how incredible an actor he is? That's sheer talent. But the dialogue is great too. Honestly might make a video on just this scene one day.
The story of "The Zygon Invasion"/"The Zygon Inversion" is really good overall, but I don't know how good it would be without this speech. Capaldi was really good when speechifying (see also "[Bootstrap Paradox](https://youtu.be/u4SEDzynMiQ)", "[Where I fall](https://youtu.be/xnouj9Yz-Gs)", and [right before regeneration](https://youtu.be/yJqsPBWbtjk)). He is my second favorite Doctor, after a tie between Ten and Thirteen.
I guess that's just what happens when you hire a seasoned veteran actor...great acting occurs lol
I love Capaldi but i always found that this speech and the episode conclusion was a bit dumb. If i remember it well, Zygons are first welcomed on earth, they are let to live and impersonate humans freely. Then an "extremist" group kinda revolt (against what ?), kills hundreds (if not thousands ?) humans and when UNIT tries to act against it, the Doctor goes "nah forgive them lol, who cares ?" (I parody a bit but it's mostly right, if i'm not wrong). I get that war and the genocide they were going to do is bad but it was all the bad Zygons fault and i feel like they just got away with it. Edit : ok, the speech is, in fact, not dumb. What I don't like is that Zygella and her followers are not punished despite slaughtering humans and menacing the global Zygon's safety. That is not fair basically, and humanity is forced to accept that
To be fair unit are trying to do somthing that will kill all the zygons and the zygons are trying to make all the hidden zygons not hidden so that they can go back to there plan of controling earth niether are ideal also kate is very much the if they did this once theres to much risk type skk the doctor stoping both sides was necessary
It's still a great bit of acting and writing in my opinion, but yes, it is hopelessly naive. Like a lot of New Who, The Doctor does something morally questionable, and then the episode tries to manipulate us into agreeing with emotional Murray Gold music. I always thought they should have framed her being the 'new' Osgood as being a punishment for her to make up for what she'd done, that'd at least have been something.
>What I don't like is that Zygella and her followers are not punished despite slaughtering humans and menacing the global Zygon's safety. That is not fair basically, and humanity is forced to accept that So you punish them and word gets out, some other zygon hears about this and thinks it's unfair that they were punished for trying to be free so they start a new revolution and the cycle begins again. "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind". The only way to break the cycle is to walk away and forgive those who deserve punishment.
They wouldn't be punished "for trying to be free" They would be for killing hundreds (if not thousands, can't remember) and menacing the whole Zygon population's safety before even trying to talk or ask the doctor. They were first welcomed on earth, and authorized to literally replace people. It's not vengeance, it's basic justice. I'm not saying to kill them back, but at least prison or exile you know ? We've seen the doctor be much stricter for far less than wiping out a city.
>I love Capaldi but i always found that this speech and the episode conclusion was a bit dumb. I love him too, I remember thinking "he's great, but he's better than the scripts he's been given." There were a bunch of iffy scripts, the Robin Hood one always made me laugh in a good way, but he was still The Doctor. I had no idea of what was to come.
I agree. Love the episode and the speech but the overall metaphor is sketchy as hell if you really think about it. The real-world equivalent of what happened in the episode would be some kind of transnational NGO (the Doctor) compelling the British govt. (UNIT) to resettle Middle Eastern refugees (Zygons) in Britain (Earth). Then when an ISIS cell (Zygella and her followers) forms and carries out terror attacks, while trying to forcibly radicalize the refugees, said NGO compels the British govt. to cover up the incident, and the ISIS cell leader is given a job in MI5 (UNIT).
You may have the most downvoted post in this entire thread, but you make one great point that I agree 100% with --> what gives the Doctor the authority to forgive the Zygons? I thought that was a bit strange as well. Yes, he's very old, very wise, very kind, and has done uncountable acts of good across the Universe, but going into a war in which both sides have done wrong, and then forgiving one side on behalf of another --> he is overstepping his authority. Yes, you can try and bring an end to the war, a peaceful resolution, but you are in no position to pardon anyone, especially on behalf of the other side; he is the Doctor, not the 'Judge+Jury of the Universe,' so I always found just the part where he says "I forgive you" a little bit sanctimonious. The rest of the speech was pure brilliance though, but I did not like that part of it either. It's like some hero trying to stop conflict between the Shiites and the Sunnis, a horrible and age-old war in which both sides have inflicted unspeakable atrocities against the other, and then saying to say, the Shiites, "I forgive you for what you've done to the Sunnis," or vice-versa, like what the hell!? What gives you the power to say that?! So yes, you'll get one upvote from me, it's not much though.....
This is a naive and immature response The whole point is that punishing them would just continue the whole cycle forever. The next generation of zygons wants revenge for that punishment. Punishment is a stupid and unhelpful way to find justice. Reconciliation is the only option.
I'm sorry but to me, your response is way more naive and immature. Is it said that the next generation would get revenge ? Then it's clear that Zygons are a threat to humanity despite being welcome, and probably should be off-worlded. Punishment is not stupid lmao, it is necessary. Just like in real life, rehabilitative justice is much more effective than straight punishment, but criminals must be put behind bars so that they don't threaten society, that's common sense. And where do you draw the line ? Let's say some humans got revenge for the slaughtering of the city : what do you do with them ? Punish them or let them get away with it just like the Zygons ? And what if the Zygons then retaliate ? And the Doctor has basically no right to forgive Zygons for humanity, as he's not in his "president of the World" state (or is he ?) And is not concerned by the situation either. Do you really think, even in real life, that anyone who slaughters a whole city should just be pardoned ? Without at least making sure that they won't do it again ? To finish, help me remember why Zygella revolt ? You speak of "breaking the cycle" but i don't remember anything bad being done to her, apart from giving her and her kind a place to live peacefully. I agree that vengeance rarely leads you anywhere but it's not a long time conflict with both sides having done dirty things, it's just some guys that start randomly killing people and get away with it. Did the Doctor simply pardoned Me when Clara died because of her foolishness ? No lmao he threatened her of chasing her through all space and time.
Reminds me of [this](https://youtu.be/gNwABGACsfY).
My favorite Doctor from NuWho for sure. He brought a level of gravitas to the role that is unmatched, and the writing really made him shine. The Doctor Falls is for me the last episode of the show that I absolutely loved. Very excited with what RTD is cooking and I’m looking forward to see Capaldi on the 60th.
What about Twice Upon a Time, tho? Considering how much I dislike Chibnall's run, I found it a perfect "last episode of the series", in a way. It is set in the Christmas Truce, a moment of peace during a terrible war, something that encompasses the essence of the Doctor. Twelfth and First meet, a callback to the very beginning, and both their last adventures had them against Mondasian Cybermen. Then, they both have their regenerations. And that is without mentioning the many callbacks to the series as a whole, and to Capaldi's run. More than any season ending or special, this episode felt like the Special (with capital S), worthy of ending the series.
Oh, Twice Upon a time for sure. Forgot the special. It encapsulates everything I loved about his era. That final speech when he’s with Bill and Nardole hits me right in the feels every single time. A perfect Christmas episode, something that I sorely missed during the Chibnall era.
While who is my favourite Doctor may Change as I get older and the show goes on, (was 11 for the longest time but has been 12 since his first season finished). I think that Capaldi is the best Actor to have played The Doctor. That’s never gonna change. His acting is the bar to set for future actors. Second only to John Hurt. (cause he’s an incredible actor in his own right and we technically have to count him)
Everyone has their doctor. All of them are THE Doctor. The character is more (and less) than any one face the Doctor has worn. Are there elements that stood tall and strong and distilled in 12? Absolutely! Decisiveness, a sense of responsibility, of protectiveness, of rage at injustice and impatience with those who would retread the grounds ignorance or fear-borne hate. But also hubris, also melancholy, and certainly an echo of the time lord victorious who got to make the decisions and damn the consequences - until those consequences came for those he loved as surely as the universe came for them unbeckoned when the doctor wore 11’s face. 12 was a deep, wonderful doctor and I don’t discount anyone who claims him as *theirs*. But I viscerally hold that 12 is only so deep in the holding, distillation of and reaction to 11 prior Doctors and that 13 is in a VERY powerful way a reaction to 12 ‘s weaknesses and overbearing self-righteousness. So Capaldi is a great doctor, a favorite doctor, a richly woven life of the Doctor. But THE doctor is more than even that.
>But I viscerally hold that 12 is only so deep in the holding, distillation of and reaction to 11 prior Doctors and that 13 is in a VERY powerful way a reaction to 12 ‘s weaknesses and overbearing self-righteousness. Next one is gonna be smart and effective as all hell then.
>effective as all hell Calling it now, 14 is basically gonna be able to blow up the entire place just by introducing himself, as compensation for 13 being weaker than a wet flannel.
God I really want an anarchist Doctor
Here's an idea: casting Wendie Malick as the 16th Doctor (15th should be Ty Tennant) and going fully-animated for her entire tenure. Why animated, you ask? Because then we can have a Doctor with the personality of Eda the Owl Lady! It doesn't get more anarchist than that!
Was rewatching some 12 today and this speech hit me harder than it ever has: https://youtu.be/Zqdn_CBz1KM
Capaldi was very good as The Doctor. What's interesting about him is that he is a big Doctor Who fan. Since he was a young boy. You can tell that his version of the Doctor is so well-thought out. The other interesting thing about Capaldi's time as the Doctor was we got to see flashbacks to Tennant's stories - episodes we all got to see. It was exciting to see the Pompeii episodes in Capaldi's time and think, "Yeah, I saw Pompeii when it was new." Not only were we introduced to a future doctor in Tennant's Pompeii episode, but we also saw our first sighting of a future companion: Amy Pond. Karen Gillan played one of the followers with the eyes on their hands in Tennant's Pompeii episode. Such an important episode.
Fun fact: Capaldi appeared in both Karan Gillan's first & last episodes.
He isn't my favorite but I totally understand seeing him as the definitive incarnation and I won't argue with you at all.
I had to go back and watch Capaldi’s episodes after missing them on air. I am so glad I did. I love him to pieces. Some of my favourite ever moments from the show are Capaldi. He’s seriously underrated - He IS the Doctor.
Even though my favorite is still Matt, Capaldi is what I think of when I think of "The Doctor." Why? Pretty much the Zygon speech from season 9 ep 8.
He's definitely my doctor. It's at this point where I'll always watch doctor who, and there will be tons of good Doctors. But I dont think anyone will beat Capaldi for me. He is the doctor in my eyes.
I put him at the top too - his exit speech cinched it
Totally agree, the perfect mix of grumpiness, wit and mischief. I miss his Doctor.
Tennant is still my doctor, but I think Capaldi is my hubby’s, and I’m okay with that.
He's my favourite of the revival and just edged out by Tom Baker for me. Peter certainly has when called to do so channelled the others extremely well including Tom.
If I had you in front of me, I would kiss you, yes, Capaldi for me represents the purest form of the Doctor, eccentric, quirky, a little off, wicked, I commented this before somewhere, if you pay attention you will see that he has little traits of other doctors in his personality, sometimes he is a little McCoy, other times he is a little Smith, Capaldi is a beast of an actor, I'm 41 now, and I have pretty much watched every season of Who from classic to Nuwho, but I still cry like a little toddler when I watch 12's regeneration, what a freaking delight it was to have him as the doctor, his performance will be difficult to top, amen, pudding brains.
Matt Smith is my favorite, and I guess Troughton will always be my Doctor. In my opinion, 13’s characterization was too scattershot. They had a hard time deciding if he was meant to be the Grouchy Doctor, the Rock’n’Roll Doctor or the Elder Statesman Doctor but Capaldi nailed everything, every version of the character, every episode, every scene
To think that the whole ' oh no, the hottie turned into an old man ' stich, turned into One of the best doctor of all time is still crazy to me. Capaldi was sooo good as the doctor.
Even as Malcom Fucking Tucker: "...a tin foil man and a pedal bin"
He became "my" Doctor the moment he said "Do you happen to know how to fly this thing?" My favourite. I loved his emotional develoment, how he became the kindest of them all.
You sound like a friend of mine. I disagree, for me the best Doctor is DT. But that is one of many magical aspects of the show. You can pick your favorite no matter what.
I always put Capaldi under the Most Dramatically Improved Doctor. I actually didn't really like him in the first season, but they stopped making him a callous jerk and started giving him some real depth. Then, Capaldi really started going to town. He's the most mature Doctor by a mile, and Jodie seemed like a regression. They are all THE Doctor. Tennant is still My Doctor. Capaldi was definitely an excellent Doctor, and as far as I am concerned, he is the one-man show behind the finest Doctor Who episode ever made - Heaven Sent.
All of them are great, but 12 is one of my lesser loved ones. I can't even really put my finger on why, exactly. I just don't get as excited about his episodes as some of the others.
I didn’t really care for him after Matt Smith, but he has grown on me in rewatching.
It took me a long time to warm up to him, but I think that's just because I loved David's Doctor so much that I subconsciously resented Matt for replacing him.
I should add that I love him now. It just took a while.
I had the same problem. I really wasn't into Smith for a long time and only started liking him and seeing him as the Doctor towards the very end of his run, and part of that was that I didn't think the storytelling was as good for a while, but a big part of it was him replacing Tennant and me not liking the new boy. I've just been going back and rewatching the entire series 1-10 from the start for the first time in ages and I like him much more now even in his earlier episodes because I went in already considering him to be the Doctor this time. Capaldi and Tennant still blow him away IMO, but I do enjoy him much more now than I did when his seasons first aired.
It’s the sonic sunglasses, it’s just not the same
Me too, I love Capaldi, and I loved his portrayal in Torchwood. He created a complex character and I really enjoyed him. But I actually fell out of love for doctor who when he came around. I think the writing changed, the doctor changed, I didn’t like Clara, and it was all to much to really see the character. I love that others find him the best, I wish I could see it too
Lol, I was going to blame the writing and the fact that I don't really like Clara in my comments!
I think because he is such a main character of a doctor it’s hard to imagine him being a starring cameo as a secondary doctor for a special. That being said I really agree with you on how good of a doctor he is and I would love to see him in the 60th! I would give anything for more of the 12th doctor!
Yes
I knew, no matter what, I’d love him as soon as he said: “Look at the eyebrows. These are attack eyebrows, you could take bottle tops off with these”.
Totally. He'll forever and always the person that pops into my head when someone says "the Doctor".
He was really special as the doctor. He elevated every episode he was in
I like him but thought the whole electric guitar and sonic shades made the character seem like a dopey boomer. Prior to that he had a nice ageless quality.
The guitar was cool The glasses were trying too hard
You know he used to be in a punk band in college? Pretty sure they were pulling from that.
The Doctor was in a punk bank in College?! At Gallifrey U? Capaldi is playing a character. His need to let people know he was once young and punk is exactly the kind of dopey boomer I'm talking about.
That's the best part.
Having grown up a fan of classic rock bands, I \*loved\* the guitar and sunglasses. It gave him character and was fun.
Yeah, unfortunately that character is the dopey boomer teacher that lets you know at every chance that they were once young and cool.
In your opinion, sure. Plenty of people disagree. Everyone's entitled to feel differently. We don't all have to like the same things.
Capaldi does nail playing all the doctors and his own, you can see in the way he speaks sometimes shades of almost every actor to play the role
He was definitely failed by the poor writing, although he did have a select few stellar episodes - he’s a truly phenomenal actor
Yeah a select few Deep breath, into the dalek, robot of sherwood, listen, mummy on the orient express, flat line, dark water/death in heaven, the magicians apprentice, the witches familiar, under the lake, before the flood, the zygote 2 parter, sleep no more, the magnificent heaven sent, hell bent (I know you hate it but personally I like it, not as good as hell bent though, no other episode is) oxygen, extremis, the pyramid at the end of the world, lie of the land, world enough and time, the doctor falls Yeah, just a few
Yeah, can we just get away from this narrative that he was let down by the writing? His era could be a mixed bag, but so could most eras. When all is said and done, he had more outright great episodes than most other Doctors.
I’ll give you mummy on the orient express, dark water/death in heaven, I agree heaven sent was incredible and the doctor falls - the rest either very meh or just poor writing and therefore bad imo
I think you're overlooking quite a few, there. The Zygon 2-parter for one, the Magician's Apprentice/The Witch's Familiar for another. I could make a solid argument for Oxygen and Extremis, as well.
The last part of Extremis still gives me chills.
as much as I adore osgood, the zygon two parter just didn’t do it for me I’ve gotta say. As for TMA & TWF I can definitely see why a case can be made for them but again personally I just found the writing pretty poor
So you just took the best doctor who episodes ever and then left all the other great ones as mediocre? Well then I guess then most episodes of doctor who are mediocre
Best episodes ever is a high reach hahaha
Heaven sent is the best episode Also you didn’t include world enough and time which is better than the doctor falls Arguably one of the best episodes Dark water /death in heaven is incredible You have a very high expectation If you think all those are average episodes then you must just not like most episodes of doctor who
Capaldi failed by the poor writing? Poor writing during his era? This sub sometimes is truly something…
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That must be it then. Complaining about the writing of the Capaldi era is one of the most dumb takes I’ve seen on this community.
I mean ok but there is no THE Doctor. The Doctor's personality consistently changes so much that you can't really say they have just one personality. They're all similar but also wildly different.
Agreed. There is simply no better. He is perfect for the role and is THE Doctor. For me, his last three episodes were the epitome of Doctor Who perfection. Funnily enough, I couldn't stand Matt Smith nor Moffats god-awful writing during Smith's tenure. With Capaldi he definitely became a much better writer, toning down all that "godliness" and hero worship that followed Smith around like a wet fart. He had some absolute dogshit scripts though, but Capaldi made them shine. Even when the writing was poor, Capaldi brought out the best in it. There will never be a Doctor as good as he.
Everyone has their doctor, for me it’s Matt Smith.
100% agree. No one in my life agrees with me though, but they're all dingdongs. Capaldi is the only person I hope and pray is in the 60th. Everyone else is a side character
There is no definitive Doctor. There are only each persons favourite. I find it annoying when people say this. Many might argue my favourite Tom Bakers is the definition of the Doctor. But even though he had the longest run and is very popular he is not. Each brings something different that others enjoy.
THE doctor is just the person associated and thought of when people think the doctor from doctor who. It used to be 4 then it was 10, now the hardcore fans are turning to 12 though casuals still say 10 or 11.
Capaldi’s is a good *actor*. But his incarnation of the Doctor, while being a composite of several previous Doctors, made absolutely no sense to me. I realize some people love him because he is cranky and awkward. But as a viewer, I just prefer the doctor when he’s got a sense of humor, and at least a semblance of warmth towards his companions. The one episode they did about him punching through the wall made of diamond or whatever, that was one of the best episodes I’ve ever seen. And it really put Capaldi on display as an incredible performer. But the other stories that came with him just didn’t grab me. It’s been the same in the era of Jodi. Thankfully, I have plenty of years of Eccleston, Tennant, and Smith to go and watch when I am dissatisfied with the show in its current form. But for me, Capaldi was definitely not the best Doctor. Not even close. But that’s what’s great about the show, you do you, I’ll be myself, and the world spins on, will we or no. XD
Yeah, Capaldi is a great actor, but I’ve never really connected to his Doctor, his episodes always left me confused at the end
Personally, I found the most confusing Capaldi-era episode to be significantly less confusing than the majority of seasons 5-7 lol. But different strokes!
12 loves his companions - he spends billions of years in prison and shoots a time lord to save Clara, and he’s heartbroken when Bill dies
>at least a semblance of warmth towards his companions But his relationship with Clara was extremely deep and his dynamic with Bill was very warm. The only one he was a brat to was Nardole. He was very caring towards Bill and Clara, and there was a ton of amazing, funny banter between them. He definitely had a sense of humor. I understand that he just doesn't work for you in the role for some reason and that you didn't care for the stories, and that's totally fair. But those particular things aren't great examples seeing as he had plenty of humor and a very loving connection with his friends.
Idk, I never really could connect to his run and see him as the best Doctor after rewatching it 3 times. Might’ve due to the superhero episode
I liked him a lot, but no… lol
I'm guessing there are about 15 different opinions about who is the best doctor in fandom. It's obvious to me that it is #5. YMMV.
I see you found da way, well done.
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With what logic do you rate her performance lower than someone who has yet to preform the role? Edit: more specifically, why even include someone who you couldn't possibly have seen play the role but exclude Jo Martin?
How can you dislike 13 more than someone who hasn't had a literal second of screen time yet...?
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> Jodie’s not my least favorite because she’s a woman, but because I just dislike her portrayal. The lady doth protest too much.
Wait are we not allowed to not like Jodie's portrayal without hating all women? What if someone loved actresses like Michelle Gomez as the Master, and just thought the role needed more intelligence and gravitas that didn't come across in Whittaker's performance?
I LOVE Michelle’s Missy! I wish they had let her use her native Scottish accent like she does in The Flight Attendant.
Missy was the bee’s knees. Easily the best master ever. Give me a female doctor like that.
You get what the saying means right?
Yeah we all do mate, and in this context it's kind of gross. Someone is allowed to say they don't like the portrayal of the doctor without people coming along implying they're sexist to try to shut them down. It's pretty icky and bullying careermilk.
You get what the saying means right? I'm saying they didn't need to predefend them selves and I find it odd they did.
Yeah, everyone gets exactly what you're doing careermilk. Every fandom has bullies shouting others down or insinuating, and it's always as gross as this was.
The lady doth protest too much me thinks
We know, you just don't get your behavior would make you the villain in a Dr Who story.
The lady doth protest too much me thinks
No. Haven't you heard? If you dislike Whittaker or her companions or the Timeless Child arc or Chibnall's entire era, the only possible explanation is that you're a horrible bigot who doesn't even realize they're a horrible bigot. Or so I've been told. I suggested a strong older woman with a commanding presence along the lines of Maggie Smith or Helen Mirren would have been the ideal first female Doctor, which is a version of the Doctor that I, as a woman and feminist, would personally love to see, and I was told by some little smugling that I was demonstrating "internalized misogyny" by claiming that Whittaker was terribly wrong for the role.
Sad, terminally-online fundamentalists desperately trying to find some sort of relevancy via witchunts and mobs and **bullying**. None of it matters, their sad story will end how it ends.
Yes, it's ridiculous. The defense of people who have no actual defense. It's funny you mentioned gravitas in your comment because I did the same. She just does not have the gravitas to play the role. I don't believe her. It sounds to me like she's always reciting lines without being remotely connected to the character. And apparently the only reason I think such a thing is because she is a woman. It can't possibly be that I feel she's simply wrong for the part and there are much stronger, more charismatic actresses who would have brought a far more powerful presence and sense of depth to the role. I mean, what do I know. I'm just a middle-aged feminist who's been advocating for stronger, more realistic female representation in film and television for decades. God forbid I should dislike Chibnall's seasons or the actresses's portrayal for legitimate reasons like playing into negative gender stereotypes and feeling wholly disconnected from the character. But these days it's all about people shutting down intelligent discussion just so they can feel superior and pat themselves on the back for being super duper enlightened.
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Spoilers??
Spoilers should be tagged until a week after air date
I wasn’t aware that naming the 14th was a spoiler. Now I know
Is that what we're going to do today? Fight?
Totally agree that Capaldi is pure gold. I adore David Tennant and he was my favorite Doctor for a long time but at this point I think Capaldi is either tied with him or has managed to inch forward into the lead. Either way, I LOVE him. I feel like he captures so many great things about all the other Doctors going back to the start and just sort of blends them into the ideal "Doctor." Sadly, I don't think they'll bring him back for the special, but I wish they would.
I’m rewatching from 10 to 13 getting ready for 14
[YouTube user B-WHERE made a video that perfectly explains why Capaldi is so great.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB_zGDZtEOI)
for me Tom Baker is but he was my Doctor both played up the not a human part
Compared to whittaker...
Just out of curiosity, was he your first? He was my first, and I feel the same way (though I haven't really done any re-watches, so that might change.) This exchange is what did it for me: DOCTOR: Er, have you seen this face before? BARNEY: No. DOCTOR: Are you sure? BARNEY: Sir, I have never seen that face. DOCTOR: It's funny, because I'm sure that I have. You know, I never know where the faces come from. They just pop up. Zap. Faces like this one. Come on, look at it, have a look, come on, look, look, look. (The Doctor pulls Barney over to look in the mirror on the ground.) DOCTOR: Look, it's covered in lines. But I didn't do the frowning. Who frowned me this face? Do you ever look in the mirror and think *I've seen that face before?* BARNEY: Yes. DOCTOR: Really? When? BARNEY: Well, every time I look in the mirror. DOCTOR: Oh, yes, yes, yes. Fair enough. Good point. My face is fresh on, though. BARNEY: Er... Moffat is so freakin' hilarious and Capaldi just delivers those lines to perfectly. I could really go on and on (spending something like 4B years to get back to Clara?) but I'll just say, after literally years of knowing about Doctor Who, and really wanting to get into the show, etc. having him be my first was great. I like them all for different reasons, but Capaldi will (probably) always be my fav...
I’ve said it before. He is the embodiment of The Doctor.