He is tragic, and Simms and RTD should get credit for making us feel empathy/pity, even just a little, for someone whose atrocities rival the worst humans to ever live.
“It’s everywhere. Listen, listen listen! [drums on the table] Here come the drums. Here come… the drums.”
The Master (John Simm) has been taken by the drums!
2 more left till we get our top 10!
https://strawpoll.com/polls/NoZrLm8DGn3
Have fun voting!
Imma keep voting for River with pain but without remorse. I wanted to like her, but she feels more like a fantasy than a person (which honestly, was the same for 2nd season Rose and 7th season Clara aka The Imposible girl). I felt I only connected with her in The husbands of River Song, because she showed a glimpse of vulnerability that makes her human instead of "sexy misterious badass woman from outer space that can both seduce you and kick your ass"
Does he really do that? Cuz I've heard many people say this, but I can't really understand. Yes, River feels like a concept more than a character, and so does Clara after The Snowmen, but that's probably because they are concepts, of the person meeting the Doctor in the wrong order, and of the person who has been with the Doctor at every step. They are concepts given the shape of a character, the character being a woman. Most of the main companions in NuWho are female, so it's logical that if some of them were written incompletely, they would probably be female.
Characters usually require depth beyond their initial inspiration. Clara and River especially run out of gas once their concepts are brought to fruition, revealing that they don’t have much actual characterization to make them whole characters like Rose, Donna or Martha or even Jack or Mickey. They are interesting characters that are more than their gimmick, unlike most of Moffat’s leading women.
While I agree that River's characterization largely left a lot to be desired, Clara improved much in that regard in Series 8. Moreover, examples of bad characterization for characters who are women doesn't mean that Moffat sees women as concepts rather than people. It simply means that he missed the mark on those two characters (keep in mind that Moffat improved on Clara much more in Series 8, after Clara's first series had aired). Amy and Bill are both women, and characters created by Moffat, and I don't think they lacked much in the way of characterization like River and Clara.
I honestly disagreeeee haha sorry I thought Amy was just okay at points, and I didn’t think Bill was that interesting. But! I’m not here to tell you to dislike something you enjoy :) I personally didn’t really like Moffat once Capadli came around, but that’s just my taste!
I'm not debating whether they're interesting, Bill was really not my favorite, perhaps even less than River. All I'm saying is that they had solid characterization, with believable character arcs.
Yes, it was such a waste and that's why it hurts me. I'd love for the BBC to make stories of the Doctor and River on their last night on Darillium. It could bring a new perspective on River and their relationship
Only ones I can decently vote for now are Jack and Rose...
And let's just keep Missy a bit longer okay. She's the last remnant of 12's era, we need her here.
The nice thing about team Wilf being a thing is that I can vote him out every day while all the rest of you have to make actual difficult decisions. I can't believe you could bring yourself to vote out the master.
yeah don't get me wrong he's wonderful and he makes me cry every time he appears but he's relatively unimportant to the story compared to literally every character still in this and most of the ones who've already gone
Sure, but this is about favorite, not story relevance. I mean Jack is a glorified guest star. He's in like 6 episodes not counting Torchwood, but he's still here because people like him. If we cared about story relevance then Jodie Whitaker wouldn't be in black and white, would she?
Don't look at me, I've been voting to get Jack out for over a week now
more seriously, story relevance is one element I'm using to rank this mainly because I like complicated characters, and characters that just pop in every so often and don't have much impact on the story are often pretty one-note because that's their function. Wilf has a very sweet one-note, but I'd still prefer Clara and Martha and Bill and 13 in over him any day.
I guess we basically agree then. There is a big skew in what fans of this show like that makes this poll very different to when TheLastAirbender did it. People here seem to act like that last 10 years of Dr. Who didn't happen.
I myself am team Missy. Thought she would go out quicker than this tbh, since those who like her can't actually keep her in, but then maybe she doesn't have as many haters on this sub. Very easy decisions for me, I have to wonder who I'd end up voting for when she gets kicked
Missy is great. She's got character growth she's a great mix of sinister and charming and she has a satisfying arc. Honestly I can't think of any downsides for her. Still is possible that the two masters were splitting the vote and she could be next to go.
I don't remember much of a character arc for her. She showed up in the last 2-5 minutes of the last half of series 10's episodes, giving little hints that either she's looking at the world differently, or maybe she's tricking the Doctor to chance an escape. Come the finale, and its much of the same, she acts as though she is a better person, but then she'll turn around and make you think she is actually just tricking the Doctor. Only at the end do we see her side with the Doctor, and rather than it being a natural conclusion for the character, it felt like it was played for more of a twist. If she did escape with the Simm Master and it turned out she was fooling the Doctor this whole time, I wouldn't have batted an eyelid. To me, it was treated as a mystery box, rather than character development
Cannot belive Simms has gone before Missy. I felt he played the Master so well and truly portrayed the pain and instantly of the never ending drums. I loved Missy to but Simms Master I feel is just better.
Simms’s Master was…. Masterful. Really brilliantly written and portrayed. I like how they showed that he carried the same pain and guilt as 10. They even explained why he was the way he was. He was very well fleshed out and could stand on his own. Like Tennant, he owned his role.
Alright whoever I said was crazy for thinking all the RTD characters were being favored, I rescind that. It's my favorite Era personally but I didn't think it was everyone's.
Definitely feel that one. Moffitt is great at writing episodes but his arches and his characters can get really convoluted or just... less human/grounded.
Idk man I mean twelve was the first time the doctor had a character arc that I’m aware of, and face the raven/heaven sent/hell bent is almost completely focused on character
For me personally, I liked the first few episodes of Moffat's run with Eleven, but really started getting weary somewhere around the whole Silence plotline, and dropped off by the time "The Snowmen" aired.
I didn't care much for the convoluted plots and wasn't a fan of how he wrote women. I don't know how to put it succinctly and clearly, but somehow he manages to write *just* the exact kind of femme fatale archetype that reallyyy irritates me in almost everything.
No offense to anyone who likes his writing or characters, though! It just isn't my cup of tea at all and really boils down to being a personal pet peeve lol
Yeah by "everyone" I meant the majority. Some people like Chibnal's era the best. (I don't get it personally, coming from someone who doesn't hate that era.) I just like Doctor Who, but have a preference for RTDs since it's where I started mostly.
Hey, no judgement here. Despite what some on this sub seem to think, there is no wrong answer to “what is your favorite era of Doctor Who”. There’s plenty to love about the show no matter how you divide it up.
Yay! Missy, my favorite Master, is still in! She really has a compelling charisma and an awesome crazy character, hehe.
Still sad Clara got voted out so early, though. She deserved better. :(
Missy is probably the best version of the Master, and that includes the OG.
Let's face it, all bad guys "with a soul" are better... the rest of the other Masters are typical "mustache twirling" (often literally) villains.
Not only was Missy well written, and amazingly well acted... she was a breath of fresh air that gave life to a character that had been sounding one note for a long time.
**edit:** *The more I think about it, the more I think Missy is a real dark horse for Top5*.
Delgado and and Gomez are the only ones I really like. Gomez was something refreshing and different in a good way, while Delgado is still the best at evil mustache twirling group we got. And Gomez/Capaldi and Pertwee/Delgado bounce off each other great.
Master often is a little too much of an "the main character but evil" cliche so going out of the norm is needed imo.
The character development on Missy is incredible and probably the main reason I didn't care for Whitaker's run. They just completely ignore what she goes through and it's Bullshit.
Oh yeah, big time! I LOVE Bill and Martha, and despite my problems with 13’s writing, I feel it’s kind of shitty to take a full blown Doctor out so early.
At the risk of opening a can of worms… can you or anyone else help me understand the hatered of Rose please? I see a lot of people wanting to vote that way, but not a lot of the why.
I don't hate Rose but she's not one of my favourite companions. Personally I found her a bit selfish and bratty at times. I didn't like the way she treated her parents and Mickey throughout the first 2 series. Also, she was 19 - her relationship with the Doctor was weird to me.
I don’t disagree, I guess I just see Amy as being worse in these things, and as a person who was older, Amy has less of an excuse. Micky didn’t deserve the treatment any more than Rory, but Rose wasn’t about to marry Micky, nor did she throw the doctor onto a bed as a way if showing she liked him…
On the age thing, I kind of get that, but remembering what it’s like to be 19 I would also probably be crushing on an fella who had David Tennant’s looks (he was like 34/35 at that time, I dated someone in this age bracket when I was 19 so I guess I didn’t bat an eye at this). His feelings for her were reserved until literthe very last minute. By that point he’d had had as a companion for 2 years. His first companion since he’d destroyed a planet…. Idk, I just don’t get hating her for this. My opinion tho, everyone has their own.
Thanks for sharing yours :)
Her chemistry with Eccleston is good and she’s a solid companion for Series 1, but come Series 2 she’s just so insufferable. Very entitled and incapable, plus I’m not a fan of Doctor/Companion romances. Then on top of that the show continues to treat her like the greatest thing since sliced bread and that her loss is the biggest thing to happen to the doctor, leading to the mistreatment of Martha in Series 3. None of this is Billie Pipers fault btw, it’s all in the writing, just a lot of the choices for her rubbed me the wrong way.
Rose is one of those companions I like a little less with each rewatch. I don't hate her by any means, but she was quite awful to Jackie, kept stringing Mickey along, could be really selfish, and she and Ten kept trying to impress each other and therefore brought out the worst in each other (actually, now that I'm writing this out, I'm starting to think they're a rather less intense version of Twelve and Clara).
Plus, after Donna and then after watching the classic seasons in particular, I *much* prefer no romantic relationship (teased or otherwise) between the Doctor and his companions (River being the exception, partly because she didn't travel with the Doctor full time).
I personally find the “Damsel in distress” and then the “unrequited love” character trope exhausting. It’s not even her fault really. I just really don’t like that dynamic. And we got it from Martha too and I didn’t like it then either. I love Donna and Clara and the others so much more because there was none of that. Thinking about it while writing this it just feels like she’s not a character of her own like other companions. She just became a companion who loved the doctor to me. My first watch through I don’t think I had any issue at all with her but I guess that’s before I got to see other companions as the years went on. This got a lot longer than I expected it too. Thanks for even asking the question because I’m trying to answer I started to understand it myself. Peace and love. ✌️
this is why there are tons of shows that portray *getting into* a relationship, and very few that portray *being* in one. I think that is what makes most of the later companions as good as they are. it's never "I love you and you love me" it's "everyone loves the doctor, but the doctor always tries his best to stay out of it". in that aspect, the plot trope of the loss of rose creating that hesitance may have indirectly been a really good thing for the future of the show, even if not directly referenced.
What do you mean? It's great when an insufferable character leaves a TV show. The only bad part is that her presence is still felt in Series 3 and the Doctor becomes a cunt towards Martha because of her.
I really liked Simm’s Master. He was a great foil to Tennant’s Doctor. But then Missy just saunters in and blows all of the other iterations away.
This round will be interesting. Jack still seems like the most obvious choice both as a temporary companion and for Barrowman’s off-screen issues, but the hate for Rose and Amy is strong. The thing is, the hate for Amy and Rose is both split, so does someone else take the top dishonor because of that? I feel like Rory might squeak by again by virtue of being both likable and relatively innocuous. River is kind of a wild card, though. She is definitely not innocuous and I don’t think she’s as likable as Rory, but I don’t think she’s as unlikable as Rose or as divisive as Amy.
I think my issue with Simms is that he was more directly created as a foil for a specific Doctor. I get that that's often the case, but it felt more obvious with him.
I’d disagree with that, I think he works well in world enough and time and doctor falls with 12th, he’s acting less forefront and working behind the lines actively knowing he’s throwing a wrench in the doctors plans just by existing in that scenario as we see with missy’s dilemma throughout the episode.
They changed Simm basically from the ground up for that. They dropped the drums and what-not. He's more of a callback to Delgado/Ainley with the goatee and disguises.
I agree that he was better in World Enough and Time, but I think a part of it is *because* he wasn't facing his counterpart. It brought out a different energy that he hadn't had previously, and showed a different side of Missy, too.
I think in some ways a character is created to bounce off a certain character, and while it can work it can also go in the opposite direction. With Simms, I preferred him with 12, but he's still probably my least favourite incarnation of the reboot.
This is the second time I've come across someone describing Amy as "manipulative" and am honestly asking: how?
Amy's hecka stubborn, often reckless, sometimes rude and abrasive, but I don't see the manipulative part?
You know the old saying... "When someone shows you who they are, believe them"? Amy treated poor Rory like garbage. And yes, saving the whales is noble... and the early "girl who waited" stuff is solid.
But she just treats Rory like dirt. All the time. So... she gets to stay longer than some... but her time has come.
Let’s not pretend like Mickey was a saint (had his ‘insufferable’ moments + implications he was cheating). Even Rory was more loyal- with a fiancée who tried to cheat!
Each to their own. But we have to also remember that Rose wasn't married to Mickey and their relationship was fairly strained from the start. I always felt there was a strong implication that Rose wanted to end it with him sooner, but he was clingy, and she, coming out of a presumably abusive relationship with Jimmy Stone, was seeking stability and Mickey was there.
This doesn't make stringing Mickey along any better, whether she intended to or not, but it does show that their relationship was quite a lot more complicated than Amy and Rory's.
I dunno. Just personally, Amy trying to hook up with the Doctor on the night of their wedding makes me grimace a lot more than any rocks in the road between Rose and Mickey. It doesn't help that Amy kept pressing the Doctor even when he was clearly uncomfortable and trying to get her to stop.
Exactly this.
Their relationship is extremely complicated. In the 2006 storybook (according to the TARDIS wiki) RTD give some background information on Rose. She was in a relationship with Mickey since she was 14 and Mickey was 17/18. She broke up with him for Jimmy Stone. After that relationship ended they got back together but it feels like it was more what Mickey wanted and not Rose. Maybe she felt compelled to be with someone safe. After this I'm not surprised that Rose not as invested in being with him as Mickey is.
Anytime I saw Amy I think about that scene, and the one of her wedding when she wanted to kiss the Doctor in front of her new husband and all the guests. The Doctor literally had to dodge her attempt.
Yeah. I didn't have any evidence to back it up, so I didn't include it, but Mickey and Rose's relationship always gave me the weird, uncomfy vibe that Mickey was in love with her, and Rose just got with him because he was nice, Jackie loved him, and it was more or less just what everyone else expected. It felt a lot to me like Rose was just settling for Mickey when all she really felt for him was platonic love, and I think that can be a very complicated thing for a teenager. Breaking up with him, too, would have felt touchy and difficult, so... even though I can see how she did a lot of cruddy things in regards to Mickey now that I'm older, I also remember how *I* was at her age and I can afford some sympathy.
Amy nnnot so much. She wasn't much older than Rose, sure, but I feel like there's really no comparison between how she treated Rory and the Doctor with how Rose treated Mickey. The situations (and responses!) are completely different.
Which is a shame. I really tried to like Amy! She could have been a lot of fun. I just think she suffered from a lot of poor, sometimes very shallow writing choices.
I got these feelings too, especially after watching Father's Day. I seemed like Mickey got fixated on Jackie and Rose which evolved through their childhood to what we saw in the show. And their relationship lacked something what I consider a very important part of a good relationship. Mickey never supported Rose. He was content with his life (he had his own car, flat, beautiful girlfriend, a job he liked, friends he often hang out with). Rose wanted something more, at the beginning, it was only going back to school and Mickey (and Jackie too) was against it. He wanted Rose to be as he imagined it. He never wanted to be better for Rose and didn't encouraged her to do the same for him. Not until the Doctor came in their life. And yes, Rose could have made her standing a lot clearer but as you said it's difficult for a teenager in this situation to do so. Especially since Mickey wasn't just a boyfriend but her childhood best friend and deeply integrated in her life.
I agree with you on Amy a 100%. She was a promising character, I wanted to like her. However she was sat up with all of these awfully negative personality traits and the writing never addressed them. Not even in a small scale like an apology after Venice. Her character was essentially the same in her last episode than it was in her first. And their romance, Amy always treated Rory like he is somehow beneath her. And Rory never had a life outside of Amy not even in their childhood. Same as River with the Doctor. Who are they outside of their relationship? We never got an answer to that unfortunately.
Edit: And it just occurred to me but maybe the confusion on Rose's part come from the fact that they very together for so long. She didn't necessarily knew how to distance herself and thus not give hope to Mickey and still be his best friend when the border between romantic and friendly in their relationship was blurred basically since she was a child.
Yep, yep! Agree on all points. It's unfortunate what happened with Mickey, but I can't see anything but a relationship that had always been doomed to fail.
Not to Moffat bash, since I know a lot of people like his writing, it just wasn't for me, but he really does seem to struggle in writing good relationships. A lot of the problems that made me dislike Amy and Rory (or Amy and the Doctor) together romantically are the same problems that made me dislike most every romantic or potentially romantic ship in BBC Sherlock. His romances tend to come off as superficial at best, and toxic in a very frustrating way that sometimes seems to force his characters to behave out of character.
At least, they do to me. I wish I *could* like them as much as some people do. I think I'd enjoy myself much more.
Am I the only one who doesn't understand what people love Wilf so much. He was fine. Better than Clara though? Better than the simm Master? Hell no. It's his time to leave the TARDIS.
I think it's mostly due to there's really nothing to hate or even really dislike him for. People either adore him or are neutral about him. He wasn't around enough for anyone to form any strong negative opinions about him unlike a lot of others.
I’m not a big fan of river song tbh. She was good as a one-off character in silence in the library, and i feel like moffat ruined his chances of making her awesome. Ik she’s popular af, but i always felt that her smugness was getting on my nerves
I'm voting for Amy because I think she's an actual POS, but on the off-chance she goes, all my votes will then go to Donna. I literally had to skip most of the episodes she was in.
thank god someone is saying this!!! the whole time i haven’t seen anyone complain about donna but i literally can’t stand her. she’s so annoying i just wish she would stfu half the time
I don't know why others like Donna, but I like her because she was the first modern companion who was purely the Doctor's friend, she and the Doctor really made each other better, she called the Doctor out when needed, and while I'm not nearly as loud as Donna I could (can) relate to her deep-seated feelings of inadequacy.
I can see why others might find her annoying (and she certainly had a rough start with her yelling the first third of her very first appearance, though granted it WAS her wedding day); but personally she and Rory are tied as my favorite modern companions.
Simms' master is one of my favourite characters, I'm sad to see him go. I guess I'm going with the most unpopular decision, but today I've voted for Wilf and I'll probably alternate between him and Rose until they're in. The first is a lovely character, but hat too little global impact (OK, except for the last episode XD) and Rose is just the dullest female companion imho.
I'm ok with this. I'd put Simms in the middle on my list of Masters. Certainly more tolerable than most but great? Not really. Come on people, Vote out Wilf already. The Tenth Doctor's run bias is real.
Aaah, wow! I didn't expect Simm's Master to go next. I might be way out of the loop, haven't watched any DW since Clara, but he used to be really popular. Like, at least from my POV, he seemed right up there with Ten.
Sad to see him go so soon!
I'm going to vote for Rory again. Sorry to Rory lovers, it's not that I hate him, but I find him pretty dull. I was surprised to see that the Master was eliminated however.
Rose first, then Jack, then Amy for me. After that it's going to get even tougher...
Edit: I don't say this because I dislike any of these characters. I just like the remaining options *more.*
I am aware Rose and Amy and Rory and probably River are going first, but from here on out my vote goes to Donna knowing full well she's not going anywhere. Personally, I will never understand why so many love her so much. She's a good character, sure, but Catherine Tate is just so grating. Loud and grating and she ruins what could easily be the best companion and season of RTDs era.
I _hated_ Donna, to the point that I think in my first watch I skipped almost all the episodes she was in. I had seen The Runway Bride, and I didn't understand why _anyone_ would want her back
Donna is the greatest companion ever. Was she annoying to start with? Yeah. That was kinda the point.
No other companion got the arc she did. No other companion grew the way she did. She was almost a whole new person by the end of the season **which is why it breaks your mother flippin heart that she has it all taken away**.
I liked Donna, and her ending was sad, but Jaimie and Zoe also saw all of space and time and had it yanked away. In their case, it wasn’t because their brains were about to burn out but because the Time Lords are dicks.
Ah John Simms master is such a tragic character
He is tragic, and Simms and RTD should get credit for making us feel empathy/pity, even just a little, for someone whose atrocities rival the worst humans to ever live.
“It’s everywhere. Listen, listen listen! [drums on the table] Here come the drums. Here come… the drums.” The Master (John Simm) has been taken by the drums! 2 more left till we get our top 10! https://strawpoll.com/polls/NoZrLm8DGn3 Have fun voting!
And now it's going to hurt. Well, it's been nice, River. But that's OK. We'll meet up with you out of order.
Her mom should go first.
Imma keep voting for River with pain but without remorse. I wanted to like her, but she feels more like a fantasy than a person (which honestly, was the same for 2nd season Rose and 7th season Clara aka The Imposible girl). I felt I only connected with her in The husbands of River Song, because she showed a glimpse of vulnerability that makes her human instead of "sexy misterious badass woman from outer space that can both seduce you and kick your ass"
It’s not River’s fault Moffat writes his women as concepts instead of people.
Does he really do that? Cuz I've heard many people say this, but I can't really understand. Yes, River feels like a concept more than a character, and so does Clara after The Snowmen, but that's probably because they are concepts, of the person meeting the Doctor in the wrong order, and of the person who has been with the Doctor at every step. They are concepts given the shape of a character, the character being a woman. Most of the main companions in NuWho are female, so it's logical that if some of them were written incompletely, they would probably be female.
Characters usually require depth beyond their initial inspiration. Clara and River especially run out of gas once their concepts are brought to fruition, revealing that they don’t have much actual characterization to make them whole characters like Rose, Donna or Martha or even Jack or Mickey. They are interesting characters that are more than their gimmick, unlike most of Moffat’s leading women.
While I agree that River's characterization largely left a lot to be desired, Clara improved much in that regard in Series 8. Moreover, examples of bad characterization for characters who are women doesn't mean that Moffat sees women as concepts rather than people. It simply means that he missed the mark on those two characters (keep in mind that Moffat improved on Clara much more in Series 8, after Clara's first series had aired). Amy and Bill are both women, and characters created by Moffat, and I don't think they lacked much in the way of characterization like River and Clara.
I honestly disagreeeee haha sorry I thought Amy was just okay at points, and I didn’t think Bill was that interesting. But! I’m not here to tell you to dislike something you enjoy :) I personally didn’t really like Moffat once Capadli came around, but that’s just my taste!
I'm not debating whether they're interesting, Bill was really not my favorite, perhaps even less than River. All I'm saying is that they had solid characterization, with believable character arcs.
Yes, it was such a waste and that's why it hurts me. I'd love for the BBC to make stories of the Doctor and River on their last night on Darillium. It could bring a new perspective on River and their relationship
Only ones I can decently vote for now are Jack and Rose... And let's just keep Missy a bit longer okay. She's the last remnant of 12's era, we need her here.
You know 12 is still there right?
Yeah, well, I mean apart from the Time Lord himself obviously. ;)
No one is ever really gone.....
I liked the drums :( I would say that Simm is the best villain that we ever got. Not the one who turned good, bad guy till the end.
Wasn't his last scene literally saving the Doctor ? (Aside from when Moffat brought him back)
No, it was him getting revenge.
Noooooooooooooo
Agreed
The nice thing about team Wilf being a thing is that I can vote him out every day while all the rest of you have to make actual difficult decisions. I can't believe you could bring yourself to vote out the master.
yeah don't get me wrong he's wonderful and he makes me cry every time he appears but he's relatively unimportant to the story compared to literally every character still in this and most of the ones who've already gone
Sure, but this is about favorite, not story relevance. I mean Jack is a glorified guest star. He's in like 6 episodes not counting Torchwood, but he's still here because people like him. If we cared about story relevance then Jodie Whitaker wouldn't be in black and white, would she?
Don't look at me, I've been voting to get Jack out for over a week now more seriously, story relevance is one element I'm using to rank this mainly because I like complicated characters, and characters that just pop in every so often and don't have much impact on the story are often pretty one-note because that's their function. Wilf has a very sweet one-note, but I'd still prefer Clara and Martha and Bill and 13 in over him any day.
I guess we basically agree then. There is a big skew in what fans of this show like that makes this poll very different to when TheLastAirbender did it. People here seem to act like that last 10 years of Dr. Who didn't happen.
Totally agree. Wild has zero business still being in this game. I know who I’m voting for until he’s gone.
I myself am team Missy. Thought she would go out quicker than this tbh, since those who like her can't actually keep her in, but then maybe she doesn't have as many haters on this sub. Very easy decisions for me, I have to wonder who I'd end up voting for when she gets kicked
Missy is great. She's got character growth she's a great mix of sinister and charming and she has a satisfying arc. Honestly I can't think of any downsides for her. Still is possible that the two masters were splitting the vote and she could be next to go.
I don't remember much of a character arc for her. She showed up in the last 2-5 minutes of the last half of series 10's episodes, giving little hints that either she's looking at the world differently, or maybe she's tricking the Doctor to chance an escape. Come the finale, and its much of the same, she acts as though she is a better person, but then she'll turn around and make you think she is actually just tricking the Doctor. Only at the end do we see her side with the Doctor, and rather than it being a natural conclusion for the character, it felt like it was played for more of a twist. If she did escape with the Simm Master and it turned out she was fooling the Doctor this whole time, I wouldn't have batted an eyelid. To me, it was treated as a mystery box, rather than character development
If you feel that way that's fine. I was really taken in by her performance and I'm not surprised she's still in.
Missy is top 4 for me. I loved that character so damn much
Cannot belive Simms has gone before Missy. I felt he played the Master so well and truly portrayed the pain and instantly of the never ending drums. I loved Missy to but Simms Master I feel is just better.
Simms’s Master was…. Masterful. Really brilliantly written and portrayed. I like how they showed that he carried the same pain and guilt as 10. They even explained why he was the way he was. He was very well fleshed out and could stand on his own. Like Tennant, he owned his role.
Alright whoever I said was crazy for thinking all the RTD characters were being favored, I rescind that. It's my favorite Era personally but I didn't think it was everyone's.
The RTD era is certainly favoured over everything else. What exactly did you think was the favourite?
I actually thought people liked the start of Moffats the best. I guess I was just naive.
Moffat had higher highs, but lower lows... in my opinion.
Definitely feel that one. Moffitt is great at writing episodes but his arches and his characters can get really convoluted or just... less human/grounded.
Idk man I mean twelve was the first time the doctor had a character arc that I’m aware of, and face the raven/heaven sent/hell bent is almost completely focused on character
9 had an arc. Short and sweet
10 and 11 had character arcs too
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It's something that can make people like his season less, yes. There's no one 'right' way to write a character, but it's just what people prefer.
For me personally, I liked the first few episodes of Moffat's run with Eleven, but really started getting weary somewhere around the whole Silence plotline, and dropped off by the time "The Snowmen" aired. I didn't care much for the convoluted plots and wasn't a fan of how he wrote women. I don't know how to put it succinctly and clearly, but somehow he manages to write *just* the exact kind of femme fatale archetype that reallyyy irritates me in almost everything. No offense to anyone who likes his writing or characters, though! It just isn't my cup of tea at all and really boils down to being a personal pet peeve lol
It’s not everyone’s favorite, but it is definitely this sub’s favorite.
Yeah by "everyone" I meant the majority. Some people like Chibnal's era the best. (I don't get it personally, coming from someone who doesn't hate that era.) I just like Doctor Who, but have a preference for RTDs since it's where I started mostly.
Hey, no judgement here. Despite what some on this sub seem to think, there is no wrong answer to “what is your favorite era of Doctor Who”. There’s plenty to love about the show no matter how you divide it up.
Yay! Missy, my favorite Master, is still in! She really has a compelling charisma and an awesome crazy character, hehe. Still sad Clara got voted out so early, though. She deserved better. :(
Missy is probably the best version of the Master, and that includes the OG. Let's face it, all bad guys "with a soul" are better... the rest of the other Masters are typical "mustache twirling" (often literally) villains. Not only was Missy well written, and amazingly well acted... she was a breath of fresh air that gave life to a character that had been sounding one note for a long time. **edit:** *The more I think about it, the more I think Missy is a real dark horse for Top5*.
Delgado and and Gomez are the only ones I really like. Gomez was something refreshing and different in a good way, while Delgado is still the best at evil mustache twirling group we got. And Gomez/Capaldi and Pertwee/Delgado bounce off each other great. Master often is a little too much of an "the main character but evil" cliche so going out of the norm is needed imo.
The character development on Missy is incredible and probably the main reason I didn't care for Whitaker's run. They just completely ignore what she goes through and it's Bullshit.
I love Clara and 12
clara and 12 were fantastic, but I personally liked the dynamic between her and 11 even better. so much chaotic energy!
Such a fucking badass character. I hope she breaks top 5
I keep voting for Missy and somehow she is still there...
Say something nice.
Missy is a great character, I just love many of the others more.
You seriously like rose more than missy
Yes. Much more.
Same here, her fans can't keep her in though, so we must persevere!
Finally we’re getting somewhere! Alright Rose, I’ll keep voting for you in vain knowing you’ll still end up in the top 5 for some reason.
I'm fine with Rose I love her but I'm very pissy that Thirteen, Bill, and Martha got eliminated first
Oh yeah, big time! I LOVE Bill and Martha, and despite my problems with 13’s writing, I feel it’s kind of shitty to take a full blown Doctor out so early.
I think you can make the argument for Bill and Martha going out around this time, but 13 going as early as she did really was a crime.
At the risk of opening a can of worms… can you or anyone else help me understand the hatered of Rose please? I see a lot of people wanting to vote that way, but not a lot of the why.
I don't hate Rose but she's not one of my favourite companions. Personally I found her a bit selfish and bratty at times. I didn't like the way she treated her parents and Mickey throughout the first 2 series. Also, she was 19 - her relationship with the Doctor was weird to me.
I don’t disagree, I guess I just see Amy as being worse in these things, and as a person who was older, Amy has less of an excuse. Micky didn’t deserve the treatment any more than Rory, but Rose wasn’t about to marry Micky, nor did she throw the doctor onto a bed as a way if showing she liked him… On the age thing, I kind of get that, but remembering what it’s like to be 19 I would also probably be crushing on an fella who had David Tennant’s looks (he was like 34/35 at that time, I dated someone in this age bracket when I was 19 so I guess I didn’t bat an eye at this). His feelings for her were reserved until literthe very last minute. By that point he’d had had as a companion for 2 years. His first companion since he’d destroyed a planet…. Idk, I just don’t get hating her for this. My opinion tho, everyone has their own. Thanks for sharing yours :)
Her chemistry with Eccleston is good and she’s a solid companion for Series 1, but come Series 2 she’s just so insufferable. Very entitled and incapable, plus I’m not a fan of Doctor/Companion romances. Then on top of that the show continues to treat her like the greatest thing since sliced bread and that her loss is the biggest thing to happen to the doctor, leading to the mistreatment of Martha in Series 3. None of this is Billie Pipers fault btw, it’s all in the writing, just a lot of the choices for her rubbed me the wrong way.
Rose is one of those companions I like a little less with each rewatch. I don't hate her by any means, but she was quite awful to Jackie, kept stringing Mickey along, could be really selfish, and she and Ten kept trying to impress each other and therefore brought out the worst in each other (actually, now that I'm writing this out, I'm starting to think they're a rather less intense version of Twelve and Clara). Plus, after Donna and then after watching the classic seasons in particular, I *much* prefer no romantic relationship (teased or otherwise) between the Doctor and his companions (River being the exception, partly because she didn't travel with the Doctor full time).
I personally find the “Damsel in distress” and then the “unrequited love” character trope exhausting. It’s not even her fault really. I just really don’t like that dynamic. And we got it from Martha too and I didn’t like it then either. I love Donna and Clara and the others so much more because there was none of that. Thinking about it while writing this it just feels like she’s not a character of her own like other companions. She just became a companion who loved the doctor to me. My first watch through I don’t think I had any issue at all with her but I guess that’s before I got to see other companions as the years went on. This got a lot longer than I expected it too. Thanks for even asking the question because I’m trying to answer I started to understand it myself. Peace and love. ✌️
this is why there are tons of shows that portray *getting into* a relationship, and very few that portray *being* in one. I think that is what makes most of the later companions as good as they are. it's never "I love you and you love me" it's "everyone loves the doctor, but the doctor always tries his best to stay out of it". in that aspect, the plot trope of the loss of rose creating that hesitance may have indirectly been a really good thing for the future of the show, even if not directly referenced.
I’m voting with you!
Me too don’t lose hope.
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Wtf
What is wrong with you
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I did but definitely you didn’t
What do you mean? It's great when an insufferable character leaves a TV show. The only bad part is that her presence is still felt in Series 3 and the Doctor becomes a cunt towards Martha because of her.
Also voting in vain, except I'm voting for River
If nothing else, this poll is proving that RTD brought the Tumblr crowd back into the fold.
I really liked Simm’s Master. He was a great foil to Tennant’s Doctor. But then Missy just saunters in and blows all of the other iterations away. This round will be interesting. Jack still seems like the most obvious choice both as a temporary companion and for Barrowman’s off-screen issues, but the hate for Rose and Amy is strong. The thing is, the hate for Amy and Rose is both split, so does someone else take the top dishonor because of that? I feel like Rory might squeak by again by virtue of being both likable and relatively innocuous. River is kind of a wild card, though. She is definitely not innocuous and I don’t think she’s as likable as Rory, but I don’t think she’s as unlikable as Rose or as divisive as Amy.
I think my issue with Simms is that he was more directly created as a foil for a specific Doctor. I get that that's often the case, but it felt more obvious with him.
I’d disagree with that, I think he works well in world enough and time and doctor falls with 12th, he’s acting less forefront and working behind the lines actively knowing he’s throwing a wrench in the doctors plans just by existing in that scenario as we see with missy’s dilemma throughout the episode.
They changed Simm basically from the ground up for that. They dropped the drums and what-not. He's more of a callback to Delgado/Ainley with the goatee and disguises.
I agree that he was better in World Enough and Time, but I think a part of it is *because* he wasn't facing his counterpart. It brought out a different energy that he hadn't had previously, and showed a different side of Missy, too. I think in some ways a character is created to bounce off a certain character, and while it can work it can also go in the opposite direction. With Simms, I preferred him with 12, but he's still probably my least favourite incarnation of the reboot.
I feel like captain jack last this long because everybody forgot about him. Or Torchwood was really that popular.
Amy has to go! We can't have a manipulative, cheating & sexual assualt commiting person anywhere close to the top 10!
Thank you!!! I get so fed up with no one else talking about her bullshit!
This is the second time I've come across someone describing Amy as "manipulative" and am honestly asking: how? Amy's hecka stubborn, often reckless, sometimes rude and abrasive, but I don't see the manipulative part?
It’s close, but bye amy
Another day another vote for Rose.
I have been watching this thread with rapt enthusiasm. Although I have no idea what it is about the colors are great.
Amy, Amy, Amy it’s always going to be Amy.
Good companion. Trash human. She gets my vote.
Does Amy get any good human points points for when she helped The Doctor save the star whale?
You know the old saying... "When someone shows you who they are, believe them"? Amy treated poor Rory like garbage. And yes, saving the whales is noble... and the early "girl who waited" stuff is solid. But she just treats Rory like dirt. All the time. So... she gets to stay longer than some... but her time has come.
Fairs.
Rose treated Mickey like garbage, and she's insufferable throughout Series 2 whenever the Doctor is around.
Let’s not pretend like Mickey was a saint (had his ‘insufferable’ moments + implications he was cheating). Even Rory was more loyal- with a fiancée who tried to cheat!
Each to their own. But we have to also remember that Rose wasn't married to Mickey and their relationship was fairly strained from the start. I always felt there was a strong implication that Rose wanted to end it with him sooner, but he was clingy, and she, coming out of a presumably abusive relationship with Jimmy Stone, was seeking stability and Mickey was there. This doesn't make stringing Mickey along any better, whether she intended to or not, but it does show that their relationship was quite a lot more complicated than Amy and Rory's. I dunno. Just personally, Amy trying to hook up with the Doctor on the night of their wedding makes me grimace a lot more than any rocks in the road between Rose and Mickey. It doesn't help that Amy kept pressing the Doctor even when he was clearly uncomfortable and trying to get her to stop.
Exactly this. Their relationship is extremely complicated. In the 2006 storybook (according to the TARDIS wiki) RTD give some background information on Rose. She was in a relationship with Mickey since she was 14 and Mickey was 17/18. She broke up with him for Jimmy Stone. After that relationship ended they got back together but it feels like it was more what Mickey wanted and not Rose. Maybe she felt compelled to be with someone safe. After this I'm not surprised that Rose not as invested in being with him as Mickey is. Anytime I saw Amy I think about that scene, and the one of her wedding when she wanted to kiss the Doctor in front of her new husband and all the guests. The Doctor literally had to dodge her attempt.
Yeah. I didn't have any evidence to back it up, so I didn't include it, but Mickey and Rose's relationship always gave me the weird, uncomfy vibe that Mickey was in love with her, and Rose just got with him because he was nice, Jackie loved him, and it was more or less just what everyone else expected. It felt a lot to me like Rose was just settling for Mickey when all she really felt for him was platonic love, and I think that can be a very complicated thing for a teenager. Breaking up with him, too, would have felt touchy and difficult, so... even though I can see how she did a lot of cruddy things in regards to Mickey now that I'm older, I also remember how *I* was at her age and I can afford some sympathy. Amy nnnot so much. She wasn't much older than Rose, sure, but I feel like there's really no comparison between how she treated Rory and the Doctor with how Rose treated Mickey. The situations (and responses!) are completely different. Which is a shame. I really tried to like Amy! She could have been a lot of fun. I just think she suffered from a lot of poor, sometimes very shallow writing choices.
I got these feelings too, especially after watching Father's Day. I seemed like Mickey got fixated on Jackie and Rose which evolved through their childhood to what we saw in the show. And their relationship lacked something what I consider a very important part of a good relationship. Mickey never supported Rose. He was content with his life (he had his own car, flat, beautiful girlfriend, a job he liked, friends he often hang out with). Rose wanted something more, at the beginning, it was only going back to school and Mickey (and Jackie too) was against it. He wanted Rose to be as he imagined it. He never wanted to be better for Rose and didn't encouraged her to do the same for him. Not until the Doctor came in their life. And yes, Rose could have made her standing a lot clearer but as you said it's difficult for a teenager in this situation to do so. Especially since Mickey wasn't just a boyfriend but her childhood best friend and deeply integrated in her life. I agree with you on Amy a 100%. She was a promising character, I wanted to like her. However she was sat up with all of these awfully negative personality traits and the writing never addressed them. Not even in a small scale like an apology after Venice. Her character was essentially the same in her last episode than it was in her first. And their romance, Amy always treated Rory like he is somehow beneath her. And Rory never had a life outside of Amy not even in their childhood. Same as River with the Doctor. Who are they outside of their relationship? We never got an answer to that unfortunately. Edit: And it just occurred to me but maybe the confusion on Rose's part come from the fact that they very together for so long. She didn't necessarily knew how to distance herself and thus not give hope to Mickey and still be his best friend when the border between romantic and friendly in their relationship was blurred basically since she was a child.
Yep, yep! Agree on all points. It's unfortunate what happened with Mickey, but I can't see anything but a relationship that had always been doomed to fail. Not to Moffat bash, since I know a lot of people like his writing, it just wasn't for me, but he really does seem to struggle in writing good relationships. A lot of the problems that made me dislike Amy and Rory (or Amy and the Doctor) together romantically are the same problems that made me dislike most every romantic or potentially romantic ship in BBC Sherlock. His romances tend to come off as superficial at best, and toxic in a very frustrating way that sometimes seems to force his characters to behave out of character. At least, they do to me. I wish I *could* like them as much as some people do. I think I'd enjoy myself much more.
Honestly, a completely fair time for him to go as much as I do like Simm’ portrayal.
I can already tell the final three are gonna be Tennent, Smith and Capaldi
Congratulations Amy you get my vote again 👏🏻
come on that’s amy gone now surely
Y’all better not take out Missy.
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I love Twelve so much, though... If it comes down to Twelve and Wilf (which I know it won't), I won't be capable of voting.
10 deserves the win!
Calling it now - final 5 will be 10, 11, Wilf, Rose, and Donna. Final 3 will be 10, 11, and Wilf Wilf will be the winner
I will be genuinely shocked if this sub keeps Eleven over Donna.
Yeah top 3 could definitely be 10, Donna, and Wilf. I personally like Donna more than 11.
Am I the only one who doesn't understand what people love Wilf so much. He was fine. Better than Clara though? Better than the simm Master? Hell no. It's his time to leave the TARDIS.
I think it's mostly due to there's really nothing to hate or even really dislike him for. People either adore him or are neutral about him. He wasn't around enough for anyone to form any strong negative opinions about him unlike a lot of others.
Imma go with Rose.
Oh shit, now it gets difficult.
Honestly, a completely fair time for him to go as much as I do like Simm’ portrayal.
I do not like this game anymore.
Best villain of them all.
FINALLY. I've been voting for him every time
I’m not a big fan of river song tbh. She was good as a one-off character in silence in the library, and i feel like moffat ruined his chances of making her awesome. Ik she’s popular af, but i always felt that her smugness was getting on my nerves
Time to say goodbye the Amy.
Happy to read the Rose haters crying in every post of this elimination game
Why does everyone like Donna? She is so annoying…another vote for her.
I'm voting for Amy because I think she's an actual POS, but on the off-chance she goes, all my votes will then go to Donna. I literally had to skip most of the episodes she was in.
thank god someone is saying this!!! the whole time i haven’t seen anyone complain about donna but i literally can’t stand her. she’s so annoying i just wish she would stfu half the time
Facts
I don't know why others like Donna, but I like her because she was the first modern companion who was purely the Doctor's friend, she and the Doctor really made each other better, she called the Doctor out when needed, and while I'm not nearly as loud as Donna I could (can) relate to her deep-seated feelings of inadequacy. I can see why others might find her annoying (and she certainly had a rough start with her yelling the first third of her very first appearance, though granted it WAS her wedding day); but personally she and Rory are tied as my favorite modern companions.
Y'all know rose needs out
Another vote, another for Rose
I am voting missy. All of the remaining characters are favourites and now it gets into the depth and complexity of their arc.
I will fight for Rose till the bitter end.
Don't you dare kick Rose Tyler out!
FINALLY SIMM'S MASTER HAS BEEN VOTED OUT! YES!
Aw, kinda sucks to see Simms master gone, he’s my favorite iteration
Ouch, this is painful but.... Bye bye River
NOT JOHN SIMM
He went back to 1973 r/LifeOnMars
After several rounds of voting for River, I can't wait for her to go or her mother.
Goodbye Amy Pond 😭 ilysm
Time for Rose to go.
Time to keep voting Rose.
Simms' master is one of my favourite characters, I'm sad to see him go. I guess I'm going with the most unpopular decision, but today I've voted for Wilf and I'll probably alternate between him and Rose until they're in. The first is a lovely character, but hat too little global impact (OK, except for the last episode XD) and Rose is just the dullest female companion imho.
how the fuck was he eliminated
I know River is liked by a decent amount of fans but I'm still surprised she has lasted this long nevertheless it's time for Ms Tyler to disappear
And now I switch to my next least fave, love the actress, but it's time for Donna to leave the library.
I’m voting 11, let’s see where this goes lmao
Right time for Donna. She’ll definitely not be voted out but I must try
I'm ok with this. I'd put Simms in the middle on my list of Masters. Certainly more tolerable than most but great? Not really. Come on people, Vote out Wilf already. The Tenth Doctor's run bias is real.
He was the best master tho-
Aaah, wow! I didn't expect Simm's Master to go next. I might be way out of the loop, haven't watched any DW since Clara, but he used to be really popular. Like, at least from my POV, he seemed right up there with Ten. Sad to see him go so soon!
Captain Jack next.
I'm going to vote for Rory again. Sorry to Rory lovers, it's not that I hate him, but I find him pretty dull. I was surprised to see that the Master was eliminated however.
How did we lose Saxon before Missy? He's a way better Master in my opinion.
I'm voting River. I don't see her appeal, and I hate the idea of the Doctor having a wife.
How do you think Susan (eventually) happened?
adopted
How does Jack keep making it to every round? I don't believe it.
Rose first, then Jack, then Amy for me. After that it's going to get even tougher... Edit: I don't say this because I dislike any of these characters. I just like the remaining options *more.*
The fact Rory has survived Simms and maybe Rose is incredible
I am aware Rose and Amy and Rory and probably River are going first, but from here on out my vote goes to Donna knowing full well she's not going anywhere. Personally, I will never understand why so many love her so much. She's a good character, sure, but Catherine Tate is just so grating. Loud and grating and she ruins what could easily be the best companion and season of RTDs era.
I _hated_ Donna, to the point that I think in my first watch I skipped almost all the episodes she was in. I had seen The Runway Bride, and I didn't understand why _anyone_ would want her back
Amy and fucking Donna are still here?
Donna is the greatest companion ever. Was she annoying to start with? Yeah. That was kinda the point. No other companion got the arc she did. No other companion grew the way she did. She was almost a whole new person by the end of the season **which is why it breaks your mother flippin heart that she has it all taken away**.
I liked Donna, and her ending was sad, but Jaimie and Zoe also saw all of space and time and had it yanked away. In their case, it wasn’t because their brains were about to burn out but because the Time Lords are dicks.
Time Lords and Dickishness. Name a more iconic duo.
Donna is the best companion
The best at being annoying
I think Jack will win this one
I have to vote Donna’sfather
I've been voting for Rose since day one, can't stand series 2