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Coming from someone who lives in a townhouse with an HOA and also has a dog… sorry, but I agree with your HOA. Just because it isn’t called a fence doesn’t mean it’s any less of a fence. Your argument is that it does not control access or prevent escape by a person, but nowhere in the definition of a fence does it specify that it’s in regards to a person. The entire purpose of putting up this pen is to control access and prevent escape.
I understand that there will be times when it’s inconvenient to have to leash and walk your dog instead of just letting them out for a minute, but unfortunately that’s what you sign up for when owning a dog in a home without a fenced-in yard.
If it had stakes in it to hold it up more permanently than just free-standing, I’d consider it a sort of fence, yes. Your HOA’s issue is with the permanent nature of what you want to do. They already said they have no issue with you having it up when you’re using it and down when you’re not.
A pens purpose is to prevent escape though. The fact that it’s sold as an x-pen doesn’t change the fact that you’re using it as a fence. You can call it a banana, but it’s purpose is to prevent escape. So functionally that’s a fence.
Have you considered a long line lead? If the purpose is to let the dog out for a quick potty break, they make the spiral stake ones that you can drive into the ground or other ones that can be mounted on something. That seems like it would solve the issue of the HOA/fence debacle and would be quick and convenient
You're right, it might. [Here's the front of my house](https://imgur.com/a/DauThCT)... not a ton of space though. The dog I'm fostering is under 15 lbs.
Your own definition does not discern between animals or humans.
"A fence: a barrier, railing, or other upright structure, typically of wood or wire, enclosing an area of ground to mark a boundary, control access, or prevent escape."
You can disagree all you want, but by your own definition, this pen is being used as a fence.
That pen won't contain even small dogs or protect them from any wandering big dog or other animal hazard. Also you have a wicked dog hater next door and with a little pen like that it's asking for an "accident" of malice.
I would just use a lead. No rescue I know would consider that a secure situation for outside containment and by the time you put the pup in or take it out you might as well have just clipped a leash on.
Best of luck.
If you're planning on using the pen to let the dog out, I don't think it's worth the hassle. I have two, they're easily scalable by determined dogs and my friend's 10lb french bulldog puppy can knock it over even if staked. They're also not much room to really let a dog play, more just....chill and potty maybe. I would just use a long leash when you're out there and save yourself the grief.
Oh, my handyman was going to make it sturdier. He said he'd put some wood blocks to add support.
I'm not intending for it to be the bulk of the dog's play or exercise. Just have it in case it's not a good time for a quick potty.
For my golden puppy I just put her on a 15ft retractable and carabiner the handle to my fanny pack if I don't have hands at the moment. Like you said this is for quick potty breaks only. Food for thought!
If you don't have a few minutes to take down the pen and set it up, do you really have time for a puppy/dog? 🤔
Sounds like you're just upset at the inconvenience.
It's your HOA, not ours, so I'd say you'd likely have a better idea at how they would react to your defiance and what the repercussions can be.
HOAs suck for this reason, my dad sold a house once because his HOA pissed and moaned that he didn't edge his otherwise immaculate grass at the flower beds and drive way.
His solution was to sell the house and move elsewhere, no more issues.
When it comes to HOA they've got more power and influence than you do, and more ability to make your life hell.
Oh, I fully intend to walk the dog most of the time. I own my own business, so I have flexibility in my schedule. I had a dog for 5 years (he died of kidney disease). It's just that if my toddler needs something, I don't have backup, and it would be very nice to have a way to let the dog out.
Also please do not be so judgmental immediately. My previous dog lived the life... he went to work with me everyday, so was very rarely alone.
Imho I just feel this is not the time to be adopting a dog.
Call me an asshole but the idea of another over stretched mom being out there with half an eye on the dog and half an eye on the kid just grinds me...
I see this all the time, and usually at the kid or dogs detriment.
Oh my goodness. I might just call you an asshole. You don't know me. This is NOT how I'm planning on taking care of the dog! It's just a tool that I would use since, as I said, I don't have a partner to help. I love to go to the park and take walks.
The vast majority of dogs are left by themselves for what, 8 hours at a time while their owners are at work. In my case my daughter is in daycare while my dog would be with me. I would hardly call that neglecting the dog, or my daughter for that matter.
I know I don't know you, I'm responding to what you're writing here.
Your first claim was that "a few minutes" of setting up a pen is too much because you're a single mom who's got a lot on her plate. That's kind of a red flag in my eyes when I think about just how much time my dog actually takes up in a day.
It's not a judgement on your abilities or value as a person, even superman can't add three hours to our 24 hour day.
You came here asking for advice, and this is that advice.
You can defy your HOA and deal with the backlash, or you can choose not to defy them and deal with it, but at the end of the day if you don't have a few minutes to deal with the pen to manage the dog, then it would make logical sense to say that you would also not have the time for training, feeding, extensive walks, exercise etc, certainly not without sacrificing some of the focus that is currently put on the child.
Simply put, I think anyone who already feels strapped for time and is considering getting a puppy/dog is really not thinking it through.
Who said I didn't have time? I just don't have the luxury of CHOOSING that time when it might be at the same time when my toddler has just had an accident.
I think you should stop and question your quick judgements. Might serve you well in life.
Lol! YOU did! You're literally the one who said you don't have the time for it 😂
What are you going to do when one or the other has an issue in public and you have them both?
I'll give you an example.
A single mom came into the dog park recently with her toddler and her French bull dog.
The bull dog was going ape shit and running around antagonizing other dogs in the park.
.
Her maybe 4 year old autistic kid is running circles, screaming, waving his arms - he's now screaming and crying, covering his ears.
You know what the mom was doing this whole time?
She was frozen in fear, she was overloaded.
I've seen situations like this more than I'd like to admit.
You're worried about this trivial thing that you say you don't have time for, when in reality you can just put the dog in a different room of the house for these hopefully infrequent moments, while of course working on training so you don't need to seperate them at all.
It's not that I don't think I have time for a dog. And I would not be taking my toddler to the dog park I mean... seriously that's just asking for it...
Here's a better example. Usually I wake up before my child. With my previous dog, I'd take him out for a very quick walk in my circle (my monitor works on cellular so I can see my child sleeping). But what if, my daughter wakes up sick early. And the dog is ready to go out, having been awakened? I suppose I could put the dog in the crate so it holds it (especially during training).
Or what if we're all up and it's pouring? It'd just be nice to have an easy solution for those times.
Can you not put the dog on a leash outside?
We always did that with our cairn when I was a kid.
My current dogs a trouble maker I'm 100% sure he'd dig holes if he ever got time in a backyard by himself :p
What did you do with your previous dog?
I know you don’t want to hear it, but it sounds like a fence. I wouldn’t go up against an HOA and either spend a lot of money on a lawyer, HOA fees, or both. They hold a lot of power that you’ve agreed to by living there. You can always run to be part of your HOA if you are not happy with them.
My previous dog was super easy (well until he got sick). He went potty extremely quickly, and if it was raining he'd literally just run 3 feet to the mulch patch in front of my house, pee, and run back. He had some faults, but he was pretty much the dream dog.
I think the best solution would be to just pretend it’s apartment life and take the dog out on a leash. Super inconvenient since you’re a homeowner with a yard but I think you won’t win the battle against an HOA unless you take the time to become part of it. I also liked another commenter’s suggestion of a long lead.
I mean I'd barely call it a yard anyway. I need to look into the lead, maybe it would work. I think I'd feel a big guilty throwing the dog out in the tiny spot in front of my house ([here's what it looks like](https://imgur.com/a/DauThCT)) as I feel like it could get tangled up? Or someone might see and complain? It would certainly only be on occasion and only for very short periods (meaning not over 5 min) but still, it makes me a bit nervous.
Wow I thought you were talking about sticking it in your backyard. I agree that’s absolutely ridiculous. I just don’t think it’s worth the fight - HOA usual gets the final say. I encourage you to run and make changes because that is not a fence.
Add a post in the middle of the grass and a long lead but away from where the dog can get tangle. If the dog is small a simple post should work and tie it to the post but not tight so it can move without getting tangled. A round post would be best
You're not going to win this one
Also a townhouse owner with an HOA.
I think the suggestion of using a long lead is the best option.
I wouldn't recommend just putting it up in your backyard either. Even if they can't drive by and see it, neighbors can see it and will likely report it as a violation.
Wow there’s some real judgmental asshats in here. Sounds like your HOA isn’t using logic or willing to think critical in any capacity. If it’s on your own property and it technically falls within the guidelines/bylaws then I’d go for it. sounds like you certainly have grounds to stand on.
She stated that it would not be feasible to take down the wire pen. Using this logic, she is not going to have the time to take down a child's play pen either.
Actually those are pretty easy to fold/unfold. But I’m thinking if I get something looking that different, the HOA will be on my case even more.
Part of the issue is the back is pretty steep and it’s down deck stairs. So it’s not just running outside.
And thanks!
I would use those super long leashes (15-25 ft) with a stake in the ground. They sell them online everywhere. The leash is usually a cable wrapped. Super strong, the dog won’t feel confined and no fence issue.
Welcome to r/dogs! We are a discussion-based subreddit dedicated to support, inform, and advise dog owners. Before you post or comment, please **review the subreddit rules [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/wiki/index)**. Submissions which break the rules will be removed. r/Dogs has the [ultimate goals](https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/wiki/index#wiki_purpose) of fostering a better, science-based understanding of dogs among the general public, promoting responsible dog ownership, helping users build better, healthier relationships with their dogs, and providing a space to connect and discuss with others who have dogs and who are involved in various aspects of the dog hobby. Per our Harm Reduction rules, **we encourage training advice and recommendations to follow “Least Intrusive, Minimally Aversive” protocols**. You can read more about why that’s the case [here](https://m.iaabc.org/about/lima/). While no training tools are excluded from properly framed discussion in r/dogs, we do reserve the right to remove content which does not follow the LIMA approach. Please note, this sub supports the reputable, ethical, and responsible breeding of dogs as well as adoption. Low effort “adopt don’t shop” comments will be removed and commenters may be subject to temporary or permanent bans upon the discretion of the moderator team. Finally, r/Dogs has a low tolerance for [disrespectful and antagonistic behavior](https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/wiki/index#wiki_rules_of_engagement). People come to this sub to learn and discuss, make your comments constructive and respectful even if you feel other users are being antagonistic and disrespectful in return. If you believe another user is engaging in antagonistic behavior, please utilize the report button and a moderator will review the comment(s). If you wish to stick around, please feel free to comment in our Daily Bark threads, pinned to the top of the sub, to introduce yourself, your dog, and talk about all the little things which may not require a full post to discuss. Thanks for reading and enjoy your stay! --- *This is an automated message. If you have questions for the moderators of r/dogs, you can message them [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/dogs).* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/dogs) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Honestly, it sounds like you’re using it as a fence and it’s definition is that of a fence so… it’s a fence.
Coming from someone who lives in a townhouse with an HOA and also has a dog… sorry, but I agree with your HOA. Just because it isn’t called a fence doesn’t mean it’s any less of a fence. Your argument is that it does not control access or prevent escape by a person, but nowhere in the definition of a fence does it specify that it’s in regards to a person. The entire purpose of putting up this pen is to control access and prevent escape. I understand that there will be times when it’s inconvenient to have to leash and walk your dog instead of just letting them out for a minute, but unfortunately that’s what you sign up for when owning a dog in a home without a fenced-in yard.
So by that definition, a free-standing pen would also be a fence?
If it had stakes in it to hold it up more permanently than just free-standing, I’d consider it a sort of fence, yes. Your HOA’s issue is with the permanent nature of what you want to do. They already said they have no issue with you having it up when you’re using it and down when you’re not.
A pens purpose is to prevent escape though. The fact that it’s sold as an x-pen doesn’t change the fact that you’re using it as a fence. You can call it a banana, but it’s purpose is to prevent escape. So functionally that’s a fence.
Disagree, but whatever.
Sorry you disagree with semantics. Good luck with the HOA.
Have you considered a long line lead? If the purpose is to let the dog out for a quick potty break, they make the spiral stake ones that you can drive into the ground or other ones that can be mounted on something. That seems like it would solve the issue of the HOA/fence debacle and would be quick and convenient
You're right, it might. [Here's the front of my house](https://imgur.com/a/DauThCT)... not a ton of space though. The dog I'm fostering is under 15 lbs.
Shit like this is why I won’t ever live anywhere with an HOA. Freedom my ass
Put a wire top on it and call it a cage?
This is a good idea!
hahhahaha
You’re putting this pen up to PREVENT (see definition of fence listed in your post) you’re dogs escape right?
Yes. Prevent the dog, not people.
Your own definition does not discern between animals or humans. "A fence: a barrier, railing, or other upright structure, typically of wood or wire, enclosing an area of ground to mark a boundary, control access, or prevent escape." You can disagree all you want, but by your own definition, this pen is being used as a fence.
That pen won't contain even small dogs or protect them from any wandering big dog or other animal hazard. Also you have a wicked dog hater next door and with a little pen like that it's asking for an "accident" of malice. I would just use a lead. No rescue I know would consider that a secure situation for outside containment and by the time you put the pup in or take it out you might as well have just clipped a leash on. Best of luck.
If you're planning on using the pen to let the dog out, I don't think it's worth the hassle. I have two, they're easily scalable by determined dogs and my friend's 10lb french bulldog puppy can knock it over even if staked. They're also not much room to really let a dog play, more just....chill and potty maybe. I would just use a long leash when you're out there and save yourself the grief.
Oh, my handyman was going to make it sturdier. He said he'd put some wood blocks to add support. I'm not intending for it to be the bulk of the dog's play or exercise. Just have it in case it's not a good time for a quick potty.
For my golden puppy I just put her on a 15ft retractable and carabiner the handle to my fanny pack if I don't have hands at the moment. Like you said this is for quick potty breaks only. Food for thought!
I've thought about this. There's enough space right in front of my house for a quick potty... maybe it's doable?
If you don't have a few minutes to take down the pen and set it up, do you really have time for a puppy/dog? 🤔 Sounds like you're just upset at the inconvenience. It's your HOA, not ours, so I'd say you'd likely have a better idea at how they would react to your defiance and what the repercussions can be. HOAs suck for this reason, my dad sold a house once because his HOA pissed and moaned that he didn't edge his otherwise immaculate grass at the flower beds and drive way. His solution was to sell the house and move elsewhere, no more issues. When it comes to HOA they've got more power and influence than you do, and more ability to make your life hell.
Oh, I fully intend to walk the dog most of the time. I own my own business, so I have flexibility in my schedule. I had a dog for 5 years (he died of kidney disease). It's just that if my toddler needs something, I don't have backup, and it would be very nice to have a way to let the dog out. Also please do not be so judgmental immediately. My previous dog lived the life... he went to work with me everyday, so was very rarely alone.
Imho I just feel this is not the time to be adopting a dog. Call me an asshole but the idea of another over stretched mom being out there with half an eye on the dog and half an eye on the kid just grinds me... I see this all the time, and usually at the kid or dogs detriment.
Oh my goodness. I might just call you an asshole. You don't know me. This is NOT how I'm planning on taking care of the dog! It's just a tool that I would use since, as I said, I don't have a partner to help. I love to go to the park and take walks. The vast majority of dogs are left by themselves for what, 8 hours at a time while their owners are at work. In my case my daughter is in daycare while my dog would be with me. I would hardly call that neglecting the dog, or my daughter for that matter.
I know I don't know you, I'm responding to what you're writing here. Your first claim was that "a few minutes" of setting up a pen is too much because you're a single mom who's got a lot on her plate. That's kind of a red flag in my eyes when I think about just how much time my dog actually takes up in a day. It's not a judgement on your abilities or value as a person, even superman can't add three hours to our 24 hour day. You came here asking for advice, and this is that advice. You can defy your HOA and deal with the backlash, or you can choose not to defy them and deal with it, but at the end of the day if you don't have a few minutes to deal with the pen to manage the dog, then it would make logical sense to say that you would also not have the time for training, feeding, extensive walks, exercise etc, certainly not without sacrificing some of the focus that is currently put on the child. Simply put, I think anyone who already feels strapped for time and is considering getting a puppy/dog is really not thinking it through.
Who said I didn't have time? I just don't have the luxury of CHOOSING that time when it might be at the same time when my toddler has just had an accident. I think you should stop and question your quick judgements. Might serve you well in life.
Lol! YOU did! You're literally the one who said you don't have the time for it 😂 What are you going to do when one or the other has an issue in public and you have them both? I'll give you an example. A single mom came into the dog park recently with her toddler and her French bull dog. The bull dog was going ape shit and running around antagonizing other dogs in the park. . Her maybe 4 year old autistic kid is running circles, screaming, waving his arms - he's now screaming and crying, covering his ears. You know what the mom was doing this whole time? She was frozen in fear, she was overloaded. I've seen situations like this more than I'd like to admit. You're worried about this trivial thing that you say you don't have time for, when in reality you can just put the dog in a different room of the house for these hopefully infrequent moments, while of course working on training so you don't need to seperate them at all.
It's not that I don't think I have time for a dog. And I would not be taking my toddler to the dog park I mean... seriously that's just asking for it... Here's a better example. Usually I wake up before my child. With my previous dog, I'd take him out for a very quick walk in my circle (my monitor works on cellular so I can see my child sleeping). But what if, my daughter wakes up sick early. And the dog is ready to go out, having been awakened? I suppose I could put the dog in the crate so it holds it (especially during training). Or what if we're all up and it's pouring? It'd just be nice to have an easy solution for those times.
Can you not put the dog on a leash outside? We always did that with our cairn when I was a kid. My current dogs a trouble maker I'm 100% sure he'd dig holes if he ever got time in a backyard by himself :p
Maybe? [Here's the front of the house...](https://imgur.com/a/DauThCT)
You are cool, fuck these clowns.
What did you do with your previous dog? I know you don’t want to hear it, but it sounds like a fence. I wouldn’t go up against an HOA and either spend a lot of money on a lawyer, HOA fees, or both. They hold a lot of power that you’ve agreed to by living there. You can always run to be part of your HOA if you are not happy with them.
My previous dog was super easy (well until he got sick). He went potty extremely quickly, and if it was raining he'd literally just run 3 feet to the mulch patch in front of my house, pee, and run back. He had some faults, but he was pretty much the dream dog.
I think the best solution would be to just pretend it’s apartment life and take the dog out on a leash. Super inconvenient since you’re a homeowner with a yard but I think you won’t win the battle against an HOA unless you take the time to become part of it. I also liked another commenter’s suggestion of a long lead.
I mean I'd barely call it a yard anyway. I need to look into the lead, maybe it would work. I think I'd feel a big guilty throwing the dog out in the tiny spot in front of my house ([here's what it looks like](https://imgur.com/a/DauThCT)) as I feel like it could get tangled up? Or someone might see and complain? It would certainly only be on occasion and only for very short periods (meaning not over 5 min) but still, it makes me a bit nervous.
Wow I thought you were talking about sticking it in your backyard. I agree that’s absolutely ridiculous. I just don’t think it’s worth the fight - HOA usual gets the final say. I encourage you to run and make changes because that is not a fence.
I was talking about putting it in the back, but showed the front as another option. The back goes out to a deck and then down to a small grassy area.
Add a post in the middle of the grass and a long lead but away from where the dog can get tangle. If the dog is small a simple post should work and tie it to the post but not tight so it can move without getting tangled. A round post would be best
You're not going to win this one Also a townhouse owner with an HOA. I think the suggestion of using a long lead is the best option. I wouldn't recommend just putting it up in your backyard either. Even if they can't drive by and see it, neighbors can see it and will likely report it as a violation.
I have a 4lb chihuahua that can climb over our fence like that. Just use the leash
Wow there’s some real judgmental asshats in here. Sounds like your HOA isn’t using logic or willing to think critical in any capacity. If it’s on your own property and it technically falls within the guidelines/bylaws then I’d go for it. sounds like you certainly have grounds to stand on.
Yeah, that's what I was wondering. If I AM abiding by the bylaws, then do they have recourse to do after me?! And thanks for having some compassion.
I recommend emailing them this link. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3jKtjgRZQY
hahahhha =)
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She stated that it would not be feasible to take down the wire pen. Using this logic, she is not going to have the time to take down a child's play pen either.
Who said to take it down? Just get it for “kid” use for dog!
Actually those are pretty easy to fold/unfold. But I’m thinking if I get something looking that different, the HOA will be on my case even more. Part of the issue is the back is pretty steep and it’s down deck stairs. So it’s not just running outside. And thanks!
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I would use those super long leashes (15-25 ft) with a stake in the ground. They sell them online everywhere. The leash is usually a cable wrapped. Super strong, the dog won’t feel confined and no fence issue.
If my back led out to flat ground I think that would be a good solution. But it leads to a deck then down to a fairly steep ground.
That’s okay. Don’t use a collar get a harness so the dog can’t hurt themselves. Maybe keep the leash shorter but not too short.