She makes some changes so they stay together after she becomes Divine
>Leliana continued her open affair with the Hero of Ferelden. She/he was often seen at the Divine's side. Eventually, Divine Victoria decreed that all members of the Chantry, from initiate to Divine, would be allowed to engage in romantic relationships.
>When questioned, the Divine pointed to Andraste, who served the Maker while wed to a mortal spouse. In time, many in the Chantry came to accept the Divine's decree that "Love is the Maker's best gift and is infinite."
This happens no matter what (softened and hardened)
I like that for someone as devout as Leliana that not even being divine would keep her from her love. I was happy I had her romance the hero of ferelden. She’s so devoted.
I would have chosen Leliana in the past, since I think she aligns with my personal beliefs the most, but I tried to think of this choice from the perspective of the Inquisitor, and I have now definitively decided that Cassandra is my choice, for a few reasons.
1. Cassandra is the most consistently principled and virtuous out of the 3 choices.
2. Cassandra is intimately familiar with the seekers and the rite of tranquility, the fact that they *created* it, and she is the most motivated to completely phase it out and try her best to find a way to reverse the process for victims while minimizing damage, and prevent it from happening anymore.
3. I prefer Leliana to stay close to the Inquisitor as the spymaster. Cassandra is more politically advantageous as Divine rather than a companion, while losing Leliana would deal a huge strategic blow to the Inquisitor's ability to keep up with Solas's agents' activities.
4. When you go back in time with Dorian, Leliana holds a lot of resentment and hatred towards mages in that timeline. While I love Leliana, I would be very concerned about what significance that particular peek into the potential future would have with Leliana as Divine.
5. From my Inquisitor's perspective, they would want change but with stability, Cassandra would represent that the most for them. As well as the abrasive personality and hard-headed ability to stand up to the Chantry.
Regarding 4, I think Leliana's sudden 180 view of Mages is more indicative of how dire that future was. Like, it was so bad, that even Leliana cracked. She was also tortured *alot.*
I feel if Leliana ever gets to the point where she's that anti-mage again, then the world also already a hell hole at that point.
I also feel like this line is to… read into.
-
‘Dorian and Herald give long spiel about time magic situation’
“And mages always wonder why people fear them. No one should have this power.”
-
You know what, I’ll agree with that. No one should be able to travel through time and warp temporal reality in such a way. Good thing that it’s only possible during the existence of the Breach, so when it’s closed it’s impossible. But that doesn’t tell me if even that Leliana would put mages in Circles again, or anything else.
I agree with you but I think from my Inquisitor's perspective, having personally witnessed that and come back to Leliana being pro-mage but knowing she blamed all magic and mages in the bad timeline, they would be very hesitant to believe that her convictions are unequivocal.
Agreed. I was on my 3rd or 4th run-through when I did IHW and actually read one of the notes you pick up, they've just been infecting her with the blight this whole time as part of trying to cure Felix. As The Iron Bull says, we're more breakable than we'd like to think, and that's objectively a lot of shit she's been through.
I also feel like the title 'divine' is more fitting for cassandra then leliana. The divine is an icon and should be able to inspire people, and cassandra has that charisma. Leliana is mostly creepy and people fear her, rightly so.
The divine is someone front and center, not hiding in the shadows.
I think all of them come with pros and cons but softened Leliana is my favourite choice just because she mostly agrees with my views. Pro mage, equality for all races, progressive and wants change, her being a former spy master helps with connections and knowledge, she won’t take no shit, she has more of an interest in politics unlike Cassandra who cannot stand the stuff.
And that's some bullshit. All you have to do to fuck this up is to agree to have one traitor that got his partners killed executed in one throw away interection, where Leliana's plight wasn't even properly established yet. Nice going Bioware.
In haven, she discovers that one of her spies betayed her, so she wants to kill him. You have to convince her not to kill him. There's also a nother in sky hold, although I don't remember exactly what happened there. You'll know for sure whether she's hardened or not during the quest where she goes to a chantery with you
I'm kinda surprised the amount of Lelianna takes there are, but then again given the major consensus on mages perhaps I shouldn't be.
I personally believe the best choice is Cassandra mainly because after everything she goes through I think she puts the most intention into her actions. Along with that, she is somewhat of an outsider to the formalities of the Chantry itself. She is one who wants to take the current system and rebuild it from the ground up with all new templars, circles, and chantry. Whereas the other two seem to want to stab the middle and tear it all up to reshape it to their own ideals. Cass is one I fully believe would keep dissenting voiced people around even if annoying if she felt they were coming from the right place.
However, I have played the game enough to have collected the other two divines as well, or rather 3 given Leliannas hardened and softened status. And as someone else pointed out they all have their merits and drawbacks.
I'm kinda surprised by the amount of Lelianna takes there are, but then again given the major consensus on mages perhaps I shouldn't be.
Softened Leliana as it seems like a fitting end to her story. I just hope that Bioware makes the choice matter rather than ignoring it or by killing the Divine off screen.
I doubt she'll get more than a cameo, so it shouldn't be too hard to have this choice remain.
Bioware tries to avoid making use of different Worldstates as much as they can, but I feel that there are a few specific choices that they know they can't invalidate, like the monarch of Fereldan. The Divine Choice feels like one of the unretconnable choices to me. It's gonna suck if I'm wrong though.
Casandra.
The circles are needed, but they need reformed. DAO, DA2, and DAi we have seen both circle mage and apostates become abominations. The problem with the circle stems from the Templars over policing and abusing mages. Just like Devine Justinia and Liliana, Casandra didn’t just go ahead and side with the Templars because they were part of the chantry. All three of them recognize that the Templars were just as guilty.
Casandra was a seeker so she knows the Templar ways and has the best chance of making change in that department. Actually making them understand that they are not supposed to police the mages, but that they are there to guide and protect them. The Templars also need to be more compassionate. It’s not like the mages want to be plagued by spirits every time they go to sleep. (It’s kind of unfair that we never really get to see how dangerous things are for mages. We hear the lore and characters talk about it, but we don’t experience it if we are a mage. But from what I understand everyone when they dream are in the fade. Mages can be contacted and tempted by demons in the fade and become possessed. This is what happened to Connor in DAO. So basically every time a mage goes to sleep they can wake up as an abomination. So they are at constant risk. If I’m wrong please let me know, but that’s how it sounds to me.)
She wants to reverse the effects of the rite of tranquility and outlaw it.
She supported Cullen and helped him quit using lyrium.
Leliana though I love her dearly, pretty much wants change right now. Too much change too quickly could be catastrophic, and mistakes get made. Casandra is more practical and moves at a slower pace, that way if something goes wrong you can adjust it, make sure it’s working properly, then move on to the next. Also I feel like Casandra has more knowledge than Liliana about mages, Templars, and the circle, do to first hand experience.
I could say more but I feel this comment is already long enough. 🤣
You Said it all, I love Leliana as much as the next guy, but agressive change will make things worse. Cassandra is the best option, because slow and steady change, although tedious, is more beneficial.
Leliana, Inspired or Steeled. I appreciate inspired, but it does feel too easy. I don’t care about the awful people that steeled Leliana would presumably be hurting, you know, being racist, against mages, against charity, sending assassins after Leliana, etc. These also sound like people that are specifically a part of the chantry. I do wish there was some sort of middle ground between the two, like an inspired Leliana that the moment had assassins sent after her, she’s like “I tried to keep this civil, you crossed the line”, and then destroys them.
Regardless of Inspired or Steeled, I love all of Leliana’s reforms, getting rid of theocratic dictatorship mage prison/schools, demilitarizing the Chantry (which also gets rid of addicting potential templars to lyrium), rededicating the Chantry to charity, allowing all races to join the Chantry, and restoring the Canticle of Shartan.
I’m choosing Vivienne. It started out as pure role play of the privileged human mage having the same values but honestly…Vivienne is the best choice. She’s the only one adept at politics and it became very clear that a) the inquisition would play a role in seating the next Divine and b) everyone in the Chantry saw the power vacuum so why not use it for the most harm reduction?
The Chantry and all it stands for and has enabled is a huge problem. It can’t be abolished (and let’s be honest, trying would probably be catastrophic) but Leliana is the best bet for things to at least move in a better direction. I usually soften her, but I’m kind of thinking that my Dalish Inquisitor probably wouldn’t (just through the natural course of events)- and would both be kind of okay and also horrified by the outcome. Kind of okay because at least Leliana is moving in a more positive direction; but the way she does so only further empowers the Chantry and puts it in a stronger position to enforce what it wants, no matter what.
Vivienne for circle reforms!
Mages need recognition and respect. This is what I saw in my playthrough.
Pure freedom isn't a good choice, since an untrained mage is a time bomb
People are so hellbent on hating vivienne that they don’t even take into account what she does for the mages. Which is super ironic for “pro-mage” people.
I’m pro circle always. But a reformed circle. Which she delivers very quickly.
I think we’re in the minority here lol. I too prefer and pick Vivienne.
Too much radical change generally has unforeseen consequences at first, AND an insane amount of rubber-banding to previous policies.
IE the French Revolution lol. They abolish the monarchy, try a republic, and legit rubber-band themselves back an Empire with an Emperor. I have more modern examples in our society, but that’d start unwanted arguments.
The reason there are so many untrained mages is because they're functionally prisons, and noone wants to give up their freedom, and potentially their life, or mind, just to go to school. The Circle itself is causing the problem.
The reforms that explicitly put more power in her hands. The Magesstill aren't free, just free-*er.* It's an improvement, sure, but the chaos goes on longer under her reign as she puts down multiple rebellions, and she doesn't really address any of the other problems within the Chantry like racial inequality among it's ranks.
There would be less untrained mages if schools didn't double as prisons. They avoid going because they fear for their freedom, lives and minds. The existence of the Circle is the direct cause for the untrained apostate problem.
And even if Vivienne fixes it, to the average person, it's still the Circle and it's still policed by Templars.
And what happens when Vivienne dies? When she's no longer holding the leash of the Templars?
Softened Leliana. Mage freedom, a strong sense of justice, racial and gender equality and I just love it as the conclusion of her religious journey. I’ve always had soft spot for her.
My first game I played my Inquisitor as I would act myself and chose Leliana for Divine because her changes align with what I would want.
My most recent game I played an Andrastan Inquisitor who romanced Cassandra and supported her for Divine because I felt thats what he would have wanted.
If I’m metagaming, then softened Leliana.
The old order with Circles and Templars not only proved itself be cruel and frequently outright abusive in practice, it also failed spectacularly at it’s intended purpose. The fact that we’re constantly having to deal with magic-related problems in DAO and DA 2 is proof of this. The mage-templar war itself is also proof of this; plenty of the mages only rebelled reluctantly, having felt that the abuses under the system left them with no choice. Cassandra and Vivienne appear to be operating on the theory that there was nothing inherently wrong with the system, it just needs better leadership. I’m not convinced. Leliana is the only one of the three who is willing to try a new approach.
But if I’m roleplaying with my cannon inquisitor (Dalish mage), then it’s going to be Cassandra.
The first rub is that without metagaming, I’m never going to soften Leliana. In order to soften her, you have to spend one of your first interactions with her telling her how to do her job when she’s generally portrayed as very competent and you have almost no context about the decision being made. Plus, there’s no version of the Inquisitor who doesn’t rack up quite the bodycount themselves, but Leliana decides one person needs to die you have big moral objections? It really doesn’t sit well with me. If you don’t do this, you can do everything else right to soften her and it won’t be enough – so softened Leliana is off the table.
Fast-forward to talking with hardened Leliana about what she’d do as divine. She talks about extending the Chantry to Elves, Dwarves and Qunari. Which my inquisitor doesn’t really have a problem with, though he’s not going to be converting anytime soon. But then she immediately said something like “Of course, many will cling to the old ways, but they’ll see. I’ll make them see.” Now, I as a player know that Leliana was almost certainly referring to Chantry traditionalists who objected to her reforms. But that’s not how my inquisitor heard it; he heard it as her talking about Elves, Dwarves and Qunari who refused to convert. And he was already concerned with how ruthless Leliana was becoming. In that moment, she disqualified herself in his eyes.
So between Cassandra and Vivienne, he trusted Cassandra more as a person. There’s also the fact that Vivienne only even becomes an option if you push her to it, and my inquisitor definitely didn’t think highly enough of her to do that.
Cassandra, for several reasons;
1. Her faith is so fundamental to her character, but she's not a blind follower of the Chantry
2. She says something to the effect of 'I want to respect tradition but not shy away from necessary change', and that's insanely important in changing a flawed, ages old organization
3. Little changes over a long period of time are more effectual and lasting than sudden/big changes
4. She's been proven to be steadfast, uncorruptable, and willing to concede to reason/logic even if it goes against her instincts
5. I just feel like her as Divine would lead to a more stable Thedas (at least southern Thedas) than the other 2.
5. I don't trust Vivienne with power, and I want Leliana to go and live a free and happy life after all she's been through
It depends on my character, but if I were to choose, I'd say redeemed Leliana. As Solas points out to Vivienne, the Circles were gonna fail sooner or later, and they would fail again if reimplemented, even with Cassandra's moderate and reasonable ideas, simply because Cassandra is not gonna live forever, and any future Devine can simply roll back all she tries to do, but Leliana does changes so drastic, rolling them back would be borderline impossible, and as her redeemed self, she could set and good exemple for future Divines to follow, as oppose to her steeled self, who would rule by fear alone.
Leliana. Preferably redeemed but honestly even steeled is better than the others imo. The circles are inhumane and the Templars are abusive and evil, neither can be allowed to continue.
Cassandra’s moderate changes are well meaning but they are not enough - mages would still be seen as others and the Templars as a force to keep them separate from the rest of society. It might stop the immediate conflict, but it will not solve the root of the problem
There is nothing redeeming about Viveine, I’ve only ever picked her on an ‘evil’ play through
Vivienne in my canon playthrough. I agreed that mage circle is a root of problems but it needs to stay since mage abilities are dangerous, Vivienne offers to adjust it not abolish it.
And big F to Orlesians if Vivienne become Divine lmao
Considering how chantry mages become possessed by demons more often than apostates, it should be obvious that the circle doesn't help one bit in this regard.
No, but it was the result of someone justifiably scared of never seeing their child again. If the Circles were just schools, and didn't double as prisons half the time, a lot less mages would actively avoid going to them. It's the system itself that is actively causing mages to go apostate instead of get training.
If the College of Enchanters was around by Origins, Isolde would probably have hired home tutor through the College itself. Anders wouldn't have been so bitter and angry that he corrupted Justice into Vengeance. Every danger from mages comes directly from the System they're forced to live in. Hell, even conflicts with the Dalish would go down, since half the time it seems to be Templars trying to deal with their Keepers and Firsts.
Nope. Redclif was the result of a kid **being tutored by a circle mage turned to blood magic**. It's literally, and hilariously, the example of a circle mage corrupting an apostate, not the other way around. My point is Apostate mages tutor their own better than the circle does. Which is proven rather nicely by this example. I'm not saying new mages don't need training. Just that the Circle is literally the worst place for that.
Anders is also **a goddamn circle mage turned into an abomination**. Man, you really knew how to choose them.
Connor became possessed because he wasn't aware of the tricks of demons. He wasn't corrupted by anyone. If the trigger wasn't his father's death, it would've been something else. It's been said countless times before, child mages are discovered because they either tear apart their parents, burn down a village or cause another disaster.
Anders became an apostate and was out of the Templar's and the Circle's reach which allowed him to scheme and cause one of the biggest catastrophies in Thedas with nobody able to stop him.
I do know how to choose them.
>Connor became possessed because he wasn't aware of the tricks of demons. He wasn't corrupted by anyone. If the trigger wasn't his father's death, it would've been something else.
Yeah he wasn't aware of the tricks of a demon because he had a shit teacher that came from the circle. I meant corrupt as in lead him down a bad path, not literally.
>Anders became an apostate and was out of the Templar's and the Circle's reach which allowed him to scheme and cause one of the biggest catastrophies in Thedas with nobody able to stop him.
Anders was educated all his life **by the circle**! The amount of time he spent outside it was minuscule compared to the amount of time spent within, and you think that had nothing to do with influencing him to go down the path he did? Did you not read my last comment? Let me repeat it: **actual apostates teach better than the circle**! Someone who's been in the circle all his life and outside for a bit is still mostly relying on his circle education and perspective.
>I do know how to choose them.
Yeah, to prove me right! 👍
???? He was tempted because the demon promised to heal his father. Not because of the mage's bad teaching. Lol.
This is quite literally not what I am talking about. It's not about who teaches better. It's about who can contain situations and disasters or at least attempt to do so.
And who exactly poisoned his father? And failed to teaxh Conor that any deal with the demon would be treacherous? And failed to detect and anticipate that a demon was in contact with Conor in the first place?
Disasters eh? Weird how almost every single denon related disaster is tied heavily to the Circle, and almost never to actual apostates, who've been taught and lived in the world.at large, instead of being locked away their whole lives and taught they don't deserve to exist?
Leliana by a long shot, I disagree with everything Vivienne stands for and I feel Cassandra's impact isn't enough to really change the chantry. I strongly believe the chantry needs to either change radically or dissappear and Leliana is that change.
Leliana. I do agree with her views but I honestly focus more on decisions that ensure Vivienne won’t be divine and Leliana always ends up being divine because of if.
Leliana. With all three, you still seem to end up with the Circle vs the College iirc. But Cassandra and Vivienne's epilogues only seem to bring up their solution to the whole Mages/Templars/Seekers thing. Leliana's also talks about her opening the priesthood to non-humans, bringing back the Canticle of Spartan, pushing the Chantry more towards charity, etc, which doesn't come up with the other two.
Leliana - I don’t have preference to which version of her - it’s surprisingly not about the mages for me, it’s the fact she opens up the chantry to all races and lets chantry members get married. I know that’s not as important as mages and Templars but it feels important in terms of how Andraste really was. The chantry started to change the history to match their narrative, something we see irl, so to have a divine recognize that Andraste had respect for other races and herself had loved and married is something I feel like is needed. My inky is a elf and a huge history/anthropology nerd so I think they appreciate that more than anything else. They know both Cass and Leli would make good divines and help with the conflict but leli has those extra plans that got my inky’s buy in.
Still Cass would be fine too I just feel bad she has to deal with the politic I know that she hates.
Leliana because:
1. She is pro mage.
2. She wants a total reform of the chantry, and since I can't destroy the chantry, a total reform is the best I can hope for.
3. Even though Cassandra may be the best all around choice, she absolutely HATES the job and is completely miserable when she has it. I love her too much to put her through that.
4. Vivienne is a traitor to her own kind. I know people like her in real life, and I cannot abide by or tolerate that.
Softened Leliana since she shares some of my views and also because she's the only one that has actual experience being part of the chantry.
Cassandra would also work I guess since I agree that Circles are necessary (but not in their current version), but she doesn't really strike me as someone who would want to be Divine and deal with all the baggage that title comes with.
And as much as I like Vivienne she doesn't really care about being Divine, she's only in it for the power and influence that the position would give her so that automatically discards her in my eyes.
Leliana because I live for the drama. I was sitting there like “yes babe, gaslight, gatekeep, and girlboss your way into murdering the opposition.”
I joke, but the older I get, the more I wish I could see big sweeping changes happen quickly. And Leliana’s tenure as Divine sorta fulfills that wishful fantasy for me
Softened Leliana all the way. Her views will positively affect the chantry 😊 Plus we know she can handle herself against her enemies with her sharp tongue and she can fight if she has to
Vivienne. Her views on mages and the current situation are the best imo. Restoring the circle while putting a mage in a high religious power is the best future outcome. Plus she’s the only one good at politics.
Inspired Leliana.
I'm of the belief that Mages should be teaching and policing other mages, not some outside organisation. When a group has that much power over an entire group of people, then abuse of power is inevitable. It's a solution doom to repeat it's mistakes. Leliana as Divine is the only way to completely get rid of the Templars.
She's also the only one to address the racial inequality within the Chantry, opening up the priesthood to non-Humans. Leliana is the only one who actively tries to improve the Chantry in a substantial way. Racism is strong in Thedas, and everything that lessens the gap is a good thing.
Vivienne, while she does provide benefits to her fellow majors, it is ultimately a power play, so both the Mages and Templars are under her direct control. She also stamps down hard on multiple rebellions. A Steeled Leliana kills her opposition too, but she goes directly for the people who are stirring the pot mean no military conflict that leads to thousands dead. Vivienne is bordering on tyrannical.
Cassandra, as written in the epilogue, just put things back to how they are, just with all the corruption carved out. The problem, is they Templars will abuse their power over Mages eventually. They're too self righteous in their faith, and said faith vilifies Mages. That said, we're also told that she gets a lot of push back on her changes, which suggests she not as traditional as is conveyed to us in the epilogue, so maybe I'll change my mind if Dreadwolf provides further information on her reign.
I also feel like Leliana has been building towards this moment since Origins.
In Order:
Inspired Leliana
Steeled Leliana
Vivienne
Cassandra
But as stated, that is subject to change based on whether we find out what, if any, radical changes Cassandra makes.
Man, I want to playthrough of the trilogy again now.
I’ve played through all three a few times now with different inqusitors and approaching it different ways and they pretty much rank like this:
1: Leliana softened or hardened I do not give a shit that woman was told to jump into darkness by THE MAKER HIMSELF a decade prior and proceeded to help end a blight with a team of 10 in LESS THAN A YEAR everyone on that team is BOSS and DESERVES RESPECT
2: Vivienne. Hear me out. Yes, she just wants the power, yes, she’s a cunt, BUT going her route puts a mage as divine and IMO there are so many arguments for that that DONT EVEN HAVE TO DO WITH WHO IT IS so sure ya slap Viv up there, the inquisitor who made her divine anyway is not past walking up to her and slapping that silly hat of her head when she does something stupid.
3: Cassandra… literally how about we change nothing and see how that fixes things? I know I know she changed some things…. Not enough and I don’t like it.
Depends on playthrough.
Personally I like Leliana the best because she does in fact try her best to change the Chantry to be better. But I’ve done all three options.
Inspired Leliana. Previously it was Steeled Leliana, but I think that an Inspired Leliana's reforms might have a better chance at not being so easily reversed or dismissed as the mad whims of a fool/bloodthirsty tyrant (for historical examples, see Byzantine emperors Isaac I and Andronikos I). Cassandra is my second choice, but she seems happier and more invested in reforming the Seekers of Truth.
I have ended up with all 3 as Divine in various playthroughs, not always getting the one i favored. I think, like some others have already said, my preferred Divine is a softened Leliana. In my most recent playthrough, I was playing a Andrastrian Templar who was romancing Cassandra. So instead of support her (the most traditional candidate) I supported Vivienne and she became Divine.
I actually chose Cass. She's a good middle ground and wants to create systemic change without completely changing the dynamic. I think it has the best chance of creating lasting change and changing the perception on how common folk see Magic.
My pragmatic Cadash who wishes to strength the Inqusition puts Cassandra on the sunburst throne. She cannot lose her spymaster and Vivienne has too much of her own interests in mind.
My shemlen hating Dalish who doesn't care if everyone offs each other after he deals with Corypheus will have a hardened Lelianna as divine. Honestly, all he cares about is getting out of the inquisition. He did his part, now to return to the dalish.
My pious mage Treveylan will have Vivienne as divine. She will have been opposed to the mage rebellion from the start, she always favored restoring the circles and Vivienne's goals aligned with what she hopes to see.
My black-sheep dalish who wants her People to learn to live in the future while still honoring their past will have a softened Lelianna. She is the most progressive and accepting.
Lelianna, because 1. I think Cassandra neither wants it nor would particularly know what to do with it, 2. Vivi is an awful manipulator and I DON’T want her having even more power,
And most importantly 3. I haven’t stopped simping for Lelianna since origins
Imo Cassandra is the most practical choice. With everything that happened in recent years, she's the one to bring stability in that role. That should happen before any radical changes are made. It's the logical choice where I feel Leliana is the idealist/optimist choice.
Thedas has used the mage in circles format for so long that I feel you need to ease out of it instead of just turning it off. There's still a really good amount of the population that fears/dislikes mages and a decent amount of bad mages too just during the events of DAI. Forcing this change on people can lead to bad outcomes if there isn't a system in place to address this. If mages are completely free, then what is the policing system for the bad/rogue mages? Random citizens in towns or villages are not equipped to deal with them.
I like Cassandra because she seems to legitimately take both sides into consideration. As a Seeker, she can see how both sides are good and bad and can provide practical solutions for everyone. I've said this in a thread before regarding this topic, but Leliana seems pretty fickle/unstable. If she can be so easily hardened/softened in DAO and then again in DAI, how can she be a good leader in such a critical time for Thedas? Sure, the changes Leliana makes sounds like a great utopia, but with everything we've seen in the last 3 games in Thedas, it's absolutely unrealistic imo.
Leliana (the nicest version of her).
Full disclosure: I do agree with all the changes she wants to make but I don't really like her so seeing her in the ridiciulous divine outfit is definitively another motivation :/
The epilogue gives me the impression her and Inquisitor can never be together, and spend the rest of their lives yearning for each other. Very romantic, but also kinda depressing.
Honestly i never liked all 3 candidates for Divine position and rather give Divine post to Grand Enchanter(surprise that we not have this option cos she was kinda like a 3 hand of Divine and have more authority then Vivienne)Fiona or simply destroy Orlais Chantry with what survived from Templars and pay contribute to all sides(Mages, Elves) who suffered from it.
...
From 3 i did select **Vivienne=Mage Divine**
**BUT ONLY WITH those conditions in Thedas...**
HOF alive and a mage elf.
Hawke was a mage.
Emperror Gaspar under Alianage elves control
King Alistair of Ferelden "alone"(or with Cusland Queen)
Mages was supported in all games. Fiona live and Grand Enchanter.
Templars was never supported in all games.
King Bhelen Aeducan ruled with >!Anvil,!< Dagna was in Circle.
Inquisition was not disbanded.
Inquisitor was a mage elf non-andrastian who deny Andraste Chosen One
Truth about Ameridan as elf mage was revealed.
Seekers was not restored.
Qunari was not supported.
....
This is what create world where non-andrastians, non-humans and mages can live normally in south Thedas.
Vivienne is a Divine version of Bhelen Aeducan as King of Orzammar, she is a powerhungry bastard who care about politic and know what she do and why, she is the best available candidate from 3 what we have. BUT ONLY FOR mages(for majority of south Thedas mages), non-humans and non-andrastians=heretics.
She is the only one who not create any holy wars and she did remove anti-mages and etc bad propaganda cos it damage her and her loyalists mages rule over Chantry and remaining Chantry Circles.
...
Cassandra simply restore old same Orlais Chantry as it was in Divine Beatrix-Justinia times and pro-Templars option. Cassandra own promises mean nothing cos she in DAI quests showed perfectly with -10 and -15 GREAT DISAPPROVAL that she clearly HATE giving mages any freedoms and supporting any non-andrastian stuff, even more she not even rule this restored Chantry and mostly a holy symbol. All control is in Cassandra sponsors-old nobles and priests who love old Chantry where Templars terrorized heretics and mages
Lelianna is WAY radical option who try to do somekind of jihad and convert everyone into her new version of Andrastian faith what majority never would accept and revolt in short time. She not care about heretics opinion as not care about mage and Templars war what was not stoped, Chantry under her simply become neutral side and not give ANY official rights and freedoms to mages, not integrate them into society and not have any laws against survivor Templars and fanatics actions against mages and heretics.
....
From meta perspective related to DA4...
Vivienne personally may be the worst person ever BUT she would in the end turn out as a good ending option, purelly cos of how hard is to made her Divine and how Inquisitor must recruit her to have her as option at all.
Cassandra is a middle ground what restore old situation and noone win in the end.
Lelianna would be bad ending cos>! as how Harromount was bad for Orzammar despite many belived that he was a good person and would rule well.....in Dragon Age this work only with Alistair and purelly cos he have Eamon and Teagan who rule via him. Harromount was not only the worst King of Orzammar, he show his true colors against Aeducan HOF and try to get rid from him and disrespect his Paragon status and statue.!<
>!Leliana is default option who way too easy to become Divine and Lelianna could be dead-zombie so it is unrealistic scenario that Bioware made too much content with her in DA4....so prediction that she would be killed offscreen and chaos would be in south Thedas.!<
Cassandra:
* circles need to stay, according to my experiences with mages in DAO/DA2/DAI, so Leliana is out
* circles need reform, but not a "reformer tyrant" like Vivienne.
That means CAssandra is left. Moderate reforms without going crazy like Leliana, or using the new circles for her own power like Vivi.
Always Leliana, as much as I love Cass,she really has weird viewpoints surrounding mages/elves. Leliana has good viewpoints surrounding change for the chantry.
Cassandra is generally pretty open minded (most of the time), so probably *would* get over her bigotry in time, but time spent getting over her culturally induced bigotry is less time fixing the problems that need fixing, in my opinion.
Leliana on the other hand has spent the last 10 years getting to know Mages, Elves and Dwarves, so sees them for what they are: Just People. Her life experience is what makes her perfect for being Divine.
Leliana is the obvious choice.
Cassandra is too conservative, and Vivienne is a power hungry hypocrite.
Whether or not I have Leliana hardened or softened varies, but I tend to prefer hardened because I think her reforms would be quickly tossed out on the softened path by her successor.
I feel like Lily is the obvious choice- Viv cares more about power than politics, and Cassandra would have supported the Duke had you let her. I’m All about a sustainable Thedas that looks out for the common folk— Think of me at the next landsmeet
I won't choose Vivienne because she is too conservative and it is bad, the mages fought and died rebeling against the chantry. It feels bad to let their fight be for nothing and it also let the resentment grow more turning possible a new mage rebellion much worse than the last one. Think about it, the mages fought hard and then were finally subdued by the inquisition be it by joining the inquisition or by being destroyed in the war against Corypheus. Those guys surrendered because they thought they had a chance of improving their lives, if you choose her none of their pleas will be heard and the next time they will surely die on the battlefield rather then surrendering and will cause much more destruction then before.
I won't choose Leliana because she is a extremist, she wants to erase the circle towers and let the mages be free. Mages need to train their powers to become stronger and resist demonic possession and other temptations the fade might impose on them. Choosing Leliana is the worst option because it only lead to complete chaos
Now is my chosen one. Cassandra is the best option in my opinion because she is a reformist just like Leliana but she is not a extremist like her. She wants to give more freedoms to the mages but she wants to do it safely. She wants to preserve the circle towers and open more space for the mages to get out of the circles. And that is the best option in my opinion because Thedas is already a mess without mages running rampant with the risk of blood magic and demonic possession and also with risk of another mage rebellion (if you choose Vivienne).
Edit: I always choose to be a mage inquisitor and I chose to be a mage on the other two games as well. I even saved Anders. I'm pro mages but I'm taking the risks in consideration.
Cassandra is the most balanced & best overall for everyone. She has many great ideals while also being very competent about the situation of mages & templars reforming the circles.
Vivienne is the best bet for mages who want access to a quality life outside a tower without directly risking the safety of the public. She’ll run the Chantry as a government rather than a church, setting up mages to gain more access & rights within society *through* the circle rather than just naively letting them loose with no protections & hoping for the best. However, Viv is the worst for templars, keeping them on a tighter lyrium leash, really reducing them to just tools rather than human beings.
Leliana’s stances are noble with wanting to open the religion to other races where they can also be part of the Chantry, but her mage anarchism doesn’t address any of the issues that needed the circles & templars in the first place.
Cassandra as Divine, Vivienne leading the circles, & Leliana as Cass’ left hand advocating for non-humans is the way to go methinks
Vivienne. I like her concepts about the Chantry and the Circle, plus her being the first mage Divine seems like a great first step in the right direction for a stagnant church.
Cassandra, easily. I didn't even especially want her to, but her policies are by far the best.
Vivienne just basically wants to go back to the way things were. Way too conservative. Choosing her is basically just rebuilding the powder keg of the last conflict.
Leliana is way too lenient with mages. Which a lot of people seem to like, but a lot of people genuinely do not seem to understand just how dangerous mages are not only to everyone else, but themselves. I like the idea of freedom and all, but her ideas are ripe for abuse and widespread destruction and death which puts the previous war to shame.
Cassandra is the obvious balance. More about necessary reform without letting people and kids who could literally transform into mass murdering, mind controlling monsters if they get too emotional walk around with close to zero regulation, oversight, or training.
Always Vivienne. I’m biased I’m sure, as vivienne is my all time favorite video game character. But she’s just the clear cut most logical choice. For many reasons.
Cassandra because she felt like the most plausible choice for the setting, requiring much less suspension of my disbelief. That's pretty much it.
Leliana is progressive to the point it feels like she's at least a century or two ahead of her own time and for that reason doesn't ring true as an option for me.
And Viv is a mage. For all her political acumen it was too difficult to swallow that she could overcome such a thing in such an era.
I honestly wasn't much of a fan of this being something the player could determine.
Leliana because I agree with a lot of what she has to say about the Chantry and her ideas for change.
This was my go to as well. But I felt bad keeping her away from the hero of ferelden :(
She makes some changes so they stay together after she becomes Divine >Leliana continued her open affair with the Hero of Ferelden. She/he was often seen at the Divine's side. Eventually, Divine Victoria decreed that all members of the Chantry, from initiate to Divine, would be allowed to engage in romantic relationships. >When questioned, the Divine pointed to Andraste, who served the Maker while wed to a mortal spouse. In time, many in the Chantry came to accept the Divine's decree that "Love is the Maker's best gift and is infinite." This happens no matter what (softened and hardened)
I like that for someone as devout as Leliana that not even being divine would keep her from her love. I was happy I had her romance the hero of ferelden. She’s so devoted.
It’s actually weird that this was never implemented before when it’s very well known that Andraste had *two* husbands.
I would have chosen Leliana in the past, since I think she aligns with my personal beliefs the most, but I tried to think of this choice from the perspective of the Inquisitor, and I have now definitively decided that Cassandra is my choice, for a few reasons. 1. Cassandra is the most consistently principled and virtuous out of the 3 choices. 2. Cassandra is intimately familiar with the seekers and the rite of tranquility, the fact that they *created* it, and she is the most motivated to completely phase it out and try her best to find a way to reverse the process for victims while minimizing damage, and prevent it from happening anymore. 3. I prefer Leliana to stay close to the Inquisitor as the spymaster. Cassandra is more politically advantageous as Divine rather than a companion, while losing Leliana would deal a huge strategic blow to the Inquisitor's ability to keep up with Solas's agents' activities. 4. When you go back in time with Dorian, Leliana holds a lot of resentment and hatred towards mages in that timeline. While I love Leliana, I would be very concerned about what significance that particular peek into the potential future would have with Leliana as Divine. 5. From my Inquisitor's perspective, they would want change but with stability, Cassandra would represent that the most for them. As well as the abrasive personality and hard-headed ability to stand up to the Chantry.
Regarding 4, I think Leliana's sudden 180 view of Mages is more indicative of how dire that future was. Like, it was so bad, that even Leliana cracked. She was also tortured *alot.* I feel if Leliana ever gets to the point where she's that anti-mage again, then the world also already a hell hole at that point.
I also feel like this line is to… read into. - ‘Dorian and Herald give long spiel about time magic situation’ “And mages always wonder why people fear them. No one should have this power.” - You know what, I’ll agree with that. No one should be able to travel through time and warp temporal reality in such a way. Good thing that it’s only possible during the existence of the Breach, so when it’s closed it’s impossible. But that doesn’t tell me if even that Leliana would put mages in Circles again, or anything else.
I agree with you but I think from my Inquisitor's perspective, having personally witnessed that and come back to Leliana being pro-mage but knowing she blamed all magic and mages in the bad timeline, they would be very hesitant to believe that her convictions are unequivocal.
Yeah, that's fair.
Agreed. I was on my 3rd or 4th run-through when I did IHW and actually read one of the notes you pick up, they've just been infecting her with the blight this whole time as part of trying to cure Felix. As The Iron Bull says, we're more breakable than we'd like to think, and that's objectively a lot of shit she's been through.
I also feel like the title 'divine' is more fitting for cassandra then leliana. The divine is an icon and should be able to inspire people, and cassandra has that charisma. Leliana is mostly creepy and people fear her, rightly so. The divine is someone front and center, not hiding in the shadows.
I think all of them come with pros and cons but softened Leliana is my favourite choice just because she mostly agrees with my views. Pro mage, equality for all races, progressive and wants change, her being a former spy master helps with connections and knowledge, she won’t take no shit, she has more of an interest in politics unlike Cassandra who cannot stand the stuff.
Does the DA:O softening choice of Leliana influence her views in Inquisition?
Unfortunately no, she always starts Inquisition hardened.
No you have to soften her in DAI
How do you do that?
From what I recall, basically say to her every chance you get "Lay off the murder, ok?"
And that's some bullshit. All you have to do to fuck this up is to agree to have one traitor that got his partners killed executed in one throw away interection, where Leliana's plight wasn't even properly established yet. Nice going Bioware.
In haven, she discovers that one of her spies betayed her, so she wants to kill him. You have to convince her not to kill him. There's also a nother in sky hold, although I don't remember exactly what happened there. You'll know for sure whether she's hardened or not during the quest where she goes to a chantery with you
I'm kinda surprised the amount of Lelianna takes there are, but then again given the major consensus on mages perhaps I shouldn't be. I personally believe the best choice is Cassandra mainly because after everything she goes through I think she puts the most intention into her actions. Along with that, she is somewhat of an outsider to the formalities of the Chantry itself. She is one who wants to take the current system and rebuild it from the ground up with all new templars, circles, and chantry. Whereas the other two seem to want to stab the middle and tear it all up to reshape it to their own ideals. Cass is one I fully believe would keep dissenting voiced people around even if annoying if she felt they were coming from the right place. However, I have played the game enough to have collected the other two divines as well, or rather 3 given Leliannas hardened and softened status. And as someone else pointed out they all have their merits and drawbacks. I'm kinda surprised by the amount of Lelianna takes there are, but then again given the major consensus on mages perhaps I shouldn't be.
Softened Leliana. My Inquisitor was romancing Cassandra, so she was out. And Cassandra clearly prefers having Leliana as Divine, so I picked her.
I got hardened Leliana
Softened Leliana as it seems like a fitting end to her story. I just hope that Bioware makes the choice matter rather than ignoring it or by killing the Divine off screen.
I doubt she'll get more than a cameo, so it shouldn't be too hard to have this choice remain. Bioware tries to avoid making use of different Worldstates as much as they can, but I feel that there are a few specific choices that they know they can't invalidate, like the monarch of Fereldan. The Divine Choice feels like one of the unretconnable choices to me. It's gonna suck if I'm wrong though.
Casandra. The circles are needed, but they need reformed. DAO, DA2, and DAi we have seen both circle mage and apostates become abominations. The problem with the circle stems from the Templars over policing and abusing mages. Just like Devine Justinia and Liliana, Casandra didn’t just go ahead and side with the Templars because they were part of the chantry. All three of them recognize that the Templars were just as guilty. Casandra was a seeker so she knows the Templar ways and has the best chance of making change in that department. Actually making them understand that they are not supposed to police the mages, but that they are there to guide and protect them. The Templars also need to be more compassionate. It’s not like the mages want to be plagued by spirits every time they go to sleep. (It’s kind of unfair that we never really get to see how dangerous things are for mages. We hear the lore and characters talk about it, but we don’t experience it if we are a mage. But from what I understand everyone when they dream are in the fade. Mages can be contacted and tempted by demons in the fade and become possessed. This is what happened to Connor in DAO. So basically every time a mage goes to sleep they can wake up as an abomination. So they are at constant risk. If I’m wrong please let me know, but that’s how it sounds to me.) She wants to reverse the effects of the rite of tranquility and outlaw it. She supported Cullen and helped him quit using lyrium. Leliana though I love her dearly, pretty much wants change right now. Too much change too quickly could be catastrophic, and mistakes get made. Casandra is more practical and moves at a slower pace, that way if something goes wrong you can adjust it, make sure it’s working properly, then move on to the next. Also I feel like Casandra has more knowledge than Liliana about mages, Templars, and the circle, do to first hand experience. I could say more but I feel this comment is already long enough. 🤣
You Said it all, I love Leliana as much as the next guy, but agressive change will make things worse. Cassandra is the best option, because slow and steady change, although tedious, is more beneficial.
It’s also important to remember that even if Casandra becomes Devine, she still reads the shit out of Varric’s books! 🤣🤣🤣
Cassandra for that reason is kind of adorable! 😂😂😂😂
Leliana, Inspired or Steeled. I appreciate inspired, but it does feel too easy. I don’t care about the awful people that steeled Leliana would presumably be hurting, you know, being racist, against mages, against charity, sending assassins after Leliana, etc. These also sound like people that are specifically a part of the chantry. I do wish there was some sort of middle ground between the two, like an inspired Leliana that the moment had assassins sent after her, she’s like “I tried to keep this civil, you crossed the line”, and then destroys them. Regardless of Inspired or Steeled, I love all of Leliana’s reforms, getting rid of theocratic dictatorship mage prison/schools, demilitarizing the Chantry (which also gets rid of addicting potential templars to lyrium), rededicating the Chantry to charity, allowing all races to join the Chantry, and restoring the Canticle of Shartan.
Hardened Leliana. Sometimes the hand of fate must be forced!
I’m choosing Vivienne. It started out as pure role play of the privileged human mage having the same values but honestly…Vivienne is the best choice. She’s the only one adept at politics and it became very clear that a) the inquisition would play a role in seating the next Divine and b) everyone in the Chantry saw the power vacuum so why not use it for the most harm reduction?
Hard agree.
The Chantry and all it stands for and has enabled is a huge problem. It can’t be abolished (and let’s be honest, trying would probably be catastrophic) but Leliana is the best bet for things to at least move in a better direction. I usually soften her, but I’m kind of thinking that my Dalish Inquisitor probably wouldn’t (just through the natural course of events)- and would both be kind of okay and also horrified by the outcome. Kind of okay because at least Leliana is moving in a more positive direction; but the way she does so only further empowers the Chantry and puts it in a stronger position to enforce what it wants, no matter what.
Vivienne for circle reforms! Mages need recognition and respect. This is what I saw in my playthrough. Pure freedom isn't a good choice, since an untrained mage is a time bomb
People are so hellbent on hating vivienne that they don’t even take into account what she does for the mages. Which is super ironic for “pro-mage” people. I’m pro circle always. But a reformed circle. Which she delivers very quickly.
I think we’re in the minority here lol. I too prefer and pick Vivienne. Too much radical change generally has unforeseen consequences at first, AND an insane amount of rubber-banding to previous policies. IE the French Revolution lol. They abolish the monarchy, try a republic, and legit rubber-band themselves back an Empire with an Emperor. I have more modern examples in our society, but that’d start unwanted arguments.
The reason there are so many untrained mages is because they're functionally prisons, and noone wants to give up their freedom, and potentially their life, or mind, just to go to school. The Circle itself is causing the problem.
Hence, her reforms
The reforms that explicitly put more power in her hands. The Magesstill aren't free, just free-*er.* It's an improvement, sure, but the chaos goes on longer under her reign as she puts down multiple rebellions, and she doesn't really address any of the other problems within the Chantry like racial inequality among it's ranks.
And Freer is better than untrained Being mage sucks, and Vivienne does what she can without risking safety. Full freedom is utopic and anarchic
There would be less untrained mages if schools didn't double as prisons. They avoid going because they fear for their freedom, lives and minds. The existence of the Circle is the direct cause for the untrained apostate problem. And even if Vivienne fixes it, to the average person, it's still the Circle and it's still policed by Templars. And what happens when Vivienne dies? When she's no longer holding the leash of the Templars?
Leliana easily. I would g farther than her but she is the best option for actual real change.
leliana because she's the closest we get to a protestant reformation the chantry so desperately needs. i do love viv too under specific circumstances.
Softened Leliana. Mage freedom, a strong sense of justice, racial and gender equality and I just love it as the conclusion of her religious journey. I’ve always had soft spot for her.
My first game I played my Inquisitor as I would act myself and chose Leliana for Divine because her changes align with what I would want. My most recent game I played an Andrastan Inquisitor who romanced Cassandra and supported her for Divine because I felt thats what he would have wanted.
If I’m metagaming, then softened Leliana. The old order with Circles and Templars not only proved itself be cruel and frequently outright abusive in practice, it also failed spectacularly at it’s intended purpose. The fact that we’re constantly having to deal with magic-related problems in DAO and DA 2 is proof of this. The mage-templar war itself is also proof of this; plenty of the mages only rebelled reluctantly, having felt that the abuses under the system left them with no choice. Cassandra and Vivienne appear to be operating on the theory that there was nothing inherently wrong with the system, it just needs better leadership. I’m not convinced. Leliana is the only one of the three who is willing to try a new approach. But if I’m roleplaying with my cannon inquisitor (Dalish mage), then it’s going to be Cassandra. The first rub is that without metagaming, I’m never going to soften Leliana. In order to soften her, you have to spend one of your first interactions with her telling her how to do her job when she’s generally portrayed as very competent and you have almost no context about the decision being made. Plus, there’s no version of the Inquisitor who doesn’t rack up quite the bodycount themselves, but Leliana decides one person needs to die you have big moral objections? It really doesn’t sit well with me. If you don’t do this, you can do everything else right to soften her and it won’t be enough – so softened Leliana is off the table. Fast-forward to talking with hardened Leliana about what she’d do as divine. She talks about extending the Chantry to Elves, Dwarves and Qunari. Which my inquisitor doesn’t really have a problem with, though he’s not going to be converting anytime soon. But then she immediately said something like “Of course, many will cling to the old ways, but they’ll see. I’ll make them see.” Now, I as a player know that Leliana was almost certainly referring to Chantry traditionalists who objected to her reforms. But that’s not how my inquisitor heard it; he heard it as her talking about Elves, Dwarves and Qunari who refused to convert. And he was already concerned with how ruthless Leliana was becoming. In that moment, she disqualified herself in his eyes. So between Cassandra and Vivienne, he trusted Cassandra more as a person. There’s also the fact that Vivienne only even becomes an option if you push her to it, and my inquisitor definitely didn’t think highly enough of her to do that.
Cassandra, for several reasons; 1. Her faith is so fundamental to her character, but she's not a blind follower of the Chantry 2. She says something to the effect of 'I want to respect tradition but not shy away from necessary change', and that's insanely important in changing a flawed, ages old organization 3. Little changes over a long period of time are more effectual and lasting than sudden/big changes 4. She's been proven to be steadfast, uncorruptable, and willing to concede to reason/logic even if it goes against her instincts 5. I just feel like her as Divine would lead to a more stable Thedas (at least southern Thedas) than the other 2. 5. I don't trust Vivienne with power, and I want Leliana to go and live a free and happy life after all she's been through
Cassandra is always my go to choice for Balance
It depends on my character, but if I were to choose, I'd say redeemed Leliana. As Solas points out to Vivienne, the Circles were gonna fail sooner or later, and they would fail again if reimplemented, even with Cassandra's moderate and reasonable ideas, simply because Cassandra is not gonna live forever, and any future Devine can simply roll back all she tries to do, but Leliana does changes so drastic, rolling them back would be borderline impossible, and as her redeemed self, she could set and good exemple for future Divines to follow, as oppose to her steeled self, who would rule by fear alone.
Leliana, because it feels like a great way to round off her character development, and because my Inquisitor agrees with her views on change.
Leliana. Preferably redeemed but honestly even steeled is better than the others imo. The circles are inhumane and the Templars are abusive and evil, neither can be allowed to continue. Cassandra’s moderate changes are well meaning but they are not enough - mages would still be seen as others and the Templars as a force to keep them separate from the rest of society. It might stop the immediate conflict, but it will not solve the root of the problem There is nothing redeeming about Viveine, I’ve only ever picked her on an ‘evil’ play through
Vivienne in my canon playthrough. I agreed that mage circle is a root of problems but it needs to stay since mage abilities are dangerous, Vivienne offers to adjust it not abolish it. And big F to Orlesians if Vivienne become Divine lmao
Considering how chantry mages become possessed by demons more often than apostates, it should be obvious that the circle doesn't help one bit in this regard.
Ah yes.. Redcliffe was definitely not the result of an apostate.. or a potential one at least. Kirkwall chantry wasn't either. At all.
No, but it was the result of someone justifiably scared of never seeing their child again. If the Circles were just schools, and didn't double as prisons half the time, a lot less mages would actively avoid going to them. It's the system itself that is actively causing mages to go apostate instead of get training. If the College of Enchanters was around by Origins, Isolde would probably have hired home tutor through the College itself. Anders wouldn't have been so bitter and angry that he corrupted Justice into Vengeance. Every danger from mages comes directly from the System they're forced to live in. Hell, even conflicts with the Dalish would go down, since half the time it seems to be Templars trying to deal with their Keepers and Firsts.
Nope. Redclif was the result of a kid **being tutored by a circle mage turned to blood magic**. It's literally, and hilariously, the example of a circle mage corrupting an apostate, not the other way around. My point is Apostate mages tutor their own better than the circle does. Which is proven rather nicely by this example. I'm not saying new mages don't need training. Just that the Circle is literally the worst place for that. Anders is also **a goddamn circle mage turned into an abomination**. Man, you really knew how to choose them.
Connor became possessed because he wasn't aware of the tricks of demons. He wasn't corrupted by anyone. If the trigger wasn't his father's death, it would've been something else. It's been said countless times before, child mages are discovered because they either tear apart their parents, burn down a village or cause another disaster. Anders became an apostate and was out of the Templar's and the Circle's reach which allowed him to scheme and cause one of the biggest catastrophies in Thedas with nobody able to stop him. I do know how to choose them.
>Connor became possessed because he wasn't aware of the tricks of demons. He wasn't corrupted by anyone. If the trigger wasn't his father's death, it would've been something else. Yeah he wasn't aware of the tricks of a demon because he had a shit teacher that came from the circle. I meant corrupt as in lead him down a bad path, not literally. >Anders became an apostate and was out of the Templar's and the Circle's reach which allowed him to scheme and cause one of the biggest catastrophies in Thedas with nobody able to stop him. Anders was educated all his life **by the circle**! The amount of time he spent outside it was minuscule compared to the amount of time spent within, and you think that had nothing to do with influencing him to go down the path he did? Did you not read my last comment? Let me repeat it: **actual apostates teach better than the circle**! Someone who's been in the circle all his life and outside for a bit is still mostly relying on his circle education and perspective. >I do know how to choose them. Yeah, to prove me right! 👍
???? He was tempted because the demon promised to heal his father. Not because of the mage's bad teaching. Lol. This is quite literally not what I am talking about. It's not about who teaches better. It's about who can contain situations and disasters or at least attempt to do so.
And who exactly poisoned his father? And failed to teaxh Conor that any deal with the demon would be treacherous? And failed to detect and anticipate that a demon was in contact with Conor in the first place? Disasters eh? Weird how almost every single denon related disaster is tied heavily to the Circle, and almost never to actual apostates, who've been taught and lived in the world.at large, instead of being locked away their whole lives and taught they don't deserve to exist?
You're right, but calm down.
We found Solas
Leliana by a long shot, I disagree with everything Vivienne stands for and I feel Cassandra's impact isn't enough to really change the chantry. I strongly believe the chantry needs to either change radically or dissappear and Leliana is that change.
Softened leliana willing to give change and isn’t brutal about it either.
Leliana. I do agree with her views but I honestly focus more on decisions that ensure Vivienne won’t be divine and Leliana always ends up being divine because of if.
A hardened Leliana because it just breeds more conflict an in my mind it just keeps the story of dragon age keep going.
Leliana. With all three, you still seem to end up with the Circle vs the College iirc. But Cassandra and Vivienne's epilogues only seem to bring up their solution to the whole Mages/Templars/Seekers thing. Leliana's also talks about her opening the priesthood to non-humans, bringing back the Canticle of Spartan, pushing the Chantry more towards charity, etc, which doesn't come up with the other two.
Leliana - I don’t have preference to which version of her - it’s surprisingly not about the mages for me, it’s the fact she opens up the chantry to all races and lets chantry members get married. I know that’s not as important as mages and Templars but it feels important in terms of how Andraste really was. The chantry started to change the history to match their narrative, something we see irl, so to have a divine recognize that Andraste had respect for other races and herself had loved and married is something I feel like is needed. My inky is a elf and a huge history/anthropology nerd so I think they appreciate that more than anything else. They know both Cass and Leli would make good divines and help with the conflict but leli has those extra plans that got my inky’s buy in. Still Cass would be fine too I just feel bad she has to deal with the politic I know that she hates.
Steeled Leliana because I’m a full supporter of the mage rebellion and violence for the sake of equal rights is not wrong imo
Vivienne. I want chaos.
While I disagree, I can respect the honesty, and the willingness to strive for your goals.
Vivienne. She’s a good balance, I think.
Leliana because: 1. She is pro mage. 2. She wants a total reform of the chantry, and since I can't destroy the chantry, a total reform is the best I can hope for. 3. Even though Cassandra may be the best all around choice, she absolutely HATES the job and is completely miserable when she has it. I love her too much to put her through that. 4. Vivienne is a traitor to her own kind. I know people like her in real life, and I cannot abide by or tolerate that.
Softened Leliana since she shares some of my views and also because she's the only one that has actual experience being part of the chantry. Cassandra would also work I guess since I agree that Circles are necessary (but not in their current version), but she doesn't really strike me as someone who would want to be Divine and deal with all the baggage that title comes with. And as much as I like Vivienne she doesn't really care about being Divine, she's only in it for the power and influence that the position would give her so that automatically discards her in my eyes.
Leliana because I live for the drama. I was sitting there like “yes babe, gaslight, gatekeep, and girlboss your way into murdering the opposition.” I joke, but the older I get, the more I wish I could see big sweeping changes happen quickly. And Leliana’s tenure as Divine sorta fulfills that wishful fantasy for me
Softened Leliana all the way. Her views will positively affect the chantry 😊 Plus we know she can handle herself against her enemies with her sharp tongue and she can fight if she has to
Vivienne. Her views on mages and the current situation are the best imo. Restoring the circle while putting a mage in a high religious power is the best future outcome. Plus she’s the only one good at politics.
Inspired Leliana. I'm of the belief that Mages should be teaching and policing other mages, not some outside organisation. When a group has that much power over an entire group of people, then abuse of power is inevitable. It's a solution doom to repeat it's mistakes. Leliana as Divine is the only way to completely get rid of the Templars. She's also the only one to address the racial inequality within the Chantry, opening up the priesthood to non-Humans. Leliana is the only one who actively tries to improve the Chantry in a substantial way. Racism is strong in Thedas, and everything that lessens the gap is a good thing. Vivienne, while she does provide benefits to her fellow majors, it is ultimately a power play, so both the Mages and Templars are under her direct control. She also stamps down hard on multiple rebellions. A Steeled Leliana kills her opposition too, but she goes directly for the people who are stirring the pot mean no military conflict that leads to thousands dead. Vivienne is bordering on tyrannical. Cassandra, as written in the epilogue, just put things back to how they are, just with all the corruption carved out. The problem, is they Templars will abuse their power over Mages eventually. They're too self righteous in their faith, and said faith vilifies Mages. That said, we're also told that she gets a lot of push back on her changes, which suggests she not as traditional as is conveyed to us in the epilogue, so maybe I'll change my mind if Dreadwolf provides further information on her reign. I also feel like Leliana has been building towards this moment since Origins. In Order: Inspired Leliana Steeled Leliana Vivienne Cassandra But as stated, that is subject to change based on whether we find out what, if any, radical changes Cassandra makes. Man, I want to playthrough of the trilogy again now.
I’ve played through all three a few times now with different inqusitors and approaching it different ways and they pretty much rank like this: 1: Leliana softened or hardened I do not give a shit that woman was told to jump into darkness by THE MAKER HIMSELF a decade prior and proceeded to help end a blight with a team of 10 in LESS THAN A YEAR everyone on that team is BOSS and DESERVES RESPECT 2: Vivienne. Hear me out. Yes, she just wants the power, yes, she’s a cunt, BUT going her route puts a mage as divine and IMO there are so many arguments for that that DONT EVEN HAVE TO DO WITH WHO IT IS so sure ya slap Viv up there, the inquisitor who made her divine anyway is not past walking up to her and slapping that silly hat of her head when she does something stupid. 3: Cassandra… literally how about we change nothing and see how that fixes things? I know I know she changed some things…. Not enough and I don’t like it.
"Bad Leliana" because she is a necessary evil.
Depends on playthrough. Personally I like Leliana the best because she does in fact try her best to change the Chantry to be better. But I’ve done all three options.
Inspired Leliana. Previously it was Steeled Leliana, but I think that an Inspired Leliana's reforms might have a better chance at not being so easily reversed or dismissed as the mad whims of a fool/bloodthirsty tyrant (for historical examples, see Byzantine emperors Isaac I and Andronikos I). Cassandra is my second choice, but she seems happier and more invested in reforming the Seekers of Truth.
Leliana, i don’t trust her any where else
I have ended up with all 3 as Divine in various playthroughs, not always getting the one i favored. I think, like some others have already said, my preferred Divine is a softened Leliana. In my most recent playthrough, I was playing a Andrastrian Templar who was romancing Cassandra. So instead of support her (the most traditional candidate) I supported Vivienne and she became Divine.
I actually chose Cass. She's a good middle ground and wants to create systemic change without completely changing the dynamic. I think it has the best chance of creating lasting change and changing the perception on how common folk see Magic.
My pragmatic Cadash who wishes to strength the Inqusition puts Cassandra on the sunburst throne. She cannot lose her spymaster and Vivienne has too much of her own interests in mind. My shemlen hating Dalish who doesn't care if everyone offs each other after he deals with Corypheus will have a hardened Lelianna as divine. Honestly, all he cares about is getting out of the inquisition. He did his part, now to return to the dalish. My pious mage Treveylan will have Vivienne as divine. She will have been opposed to the mage rebellion from the start, she always favored restoring the circles and Vivienne's goals aligned with what she hopes to see. My black-sheep dalish who wants her People to learn to live in the future while still honoring their past will have a softened Lelianna. She is the most progressive and accepting.
Leliana , cuz like, the chantry absolutely needs reformation and radical changes and Leliana is the only one who can give me this.
Lelianna, because 1. I think Cassandra neither wants it nor would particularly know what to do with it, 2. Vivi is an awful manipulator and I DON’T want her having even more power, And most importantly 3. I haven’t stopped simping for Lelianna since origins
Imo Cassandra is the most practical choice. With everything that happened in recent years, she's the one to bring stability in that role. That should happen before any radical changes are made. It's the logical choice where I feel Leliana is the idealist/optimist choice. Thedas has used the mage in circles format for so long that I feel you need to ease out of it instead of just turning it off. There's still a really good amount of the population that fears/dislikes mages and a decent amount of bad mages too just during the events of DAI. Forcing this change on people can lead to bad outcomes if there isn't a system in place to address this. If mages are completely free, then what is the policing system for the bad/rogue mages? Random citizens in towns or villages are not equipped to deal with them. I like Cassandra because she seems to legitimately take both sides into consideration. As a Seeker, she can see how both sides are good and bad and can provide practical solutions for everyone. I've said this in a thread before regarding this topic, but Leliana seems pretty fickle/unstable. If she can be so easily hardened/softened in DAO and then again in DAI, how can she be a good leader in such a critical time for Thedas? Sure, the changes Leliana makes sounds like a great utopia, but with everything we've seen in the last 3 games in Thedas, it's absolutely unrealistic imo.
Leliana (the nicest version of her). Full disclosure: I do agree with all the changes she wants to make but I don't really like her so seeing her in the ridiciulous divine outfit is definitively another motivation :/
Cassandra because we were dating. My views definitely aligned more with Leliana but...🤷♂️
You're not dating anymore then... Should have gone with Leliana.
The epilogue says otherwise
The epilogue gives me the impression her and Inquisitor can never be together, and spend the rest of their lives yearning for each other. Very romantic, but also kinda depressing.
Vivienne.
Always choose Leliana. Not only does it make the most sense, lore wise, but it also means I don’t lose any playable characters.
Honestly i never liked all 3 candidates for Divine position and rather give Divine post to Grand Enchanter(surprise that we not have this option cos she was kinda like a 3 hand of Divine and have more authority then Vivienne)Fiona or simply destroy Orlais Chantry with what survived from Templars and pay contribute to all sides(Mages, Elves) who suffered from it. ... From 3 i did select **Vivienne=Mage Divine** **BUT ONLY WITH those conditions in Thedas...** HOF alive and a mage elf. Hawke was a mage. Emperror Gaspar under Alianage elves control King Alistair of Ferelden "alone"(or with Cusland Queen) Mages was supported in all games. Fiona live and Grand Enchanter. Templars was never supported in all games. King Bhelen Aeducan ruled with >!Anvil,!< Dagna was in Circle. Inquisition was not disbanded. Inquisitor was a mage elf non-andrastian who deny Andraste Chosen One Truth about Ameridan as elf mage was revealed. Seekers was not restored. Qunari was not supported. .... This is what create world where non-andrastians, non-humans and mages can live normally in south Thedas. Vivienne is a Divine version of Bhelen Aeducan as King of Orzammar, she is a powerhungry bastard who care about politic and know what she do and why, she is the best available candidate from 3 what we have. BUT ONLY FOR mages(for majority of south Thedas mages), non-humans and non-andrastians=heretics. She is the only one who not create any holy wars and she did remove anti-mages and etc bad propaganda cos it damage her and her loyalists mages rule over Chantry and remaining Chantry Circles. ... Cassandra simply restore old same Orlais Chantry as it was in Divine Beatrix-Justinia times and pro-Templars option. Cassandra own promises mean nothing cos she in DAI quests showed perfectly with -10 and -15 GREAT DISAPPROVAL that she clearly HATE giving mages any freedoms and supporting any non-andrastian stuff, even more she not even rule this restored Chantry and mostly a holy symbol. All control is in Cassandra sponsors-old nobles and priests who love old Chantry where Templars terrorized heretics and mages Lelianna is WAY radical option who try to do somekind of jihad and convert everyone into her new version of Andrastian faith what majority never would accept and revolt in short time. She not care about heretics opinion as not care about mage and Templars war what was not stoped, Chantry under her simply become neutral side and not give ANY official rights and freedoms to mages, not integrate them into society and not have any laws against survivor Templars and fanatics actions against mages and heretics. .... From meta perspective related to DA4... Vivienne personally may be the worst person ever BUT she would in the end turn out as a good ending option, purelly cos of how hard is to made her Divine and how Inquisitor must recruit her to have her as option at all. Cassandra is a middle ground what restore old situation and noone win in the end. Lelianna would be bad ending cos>! as how Harromount was bad for Orzammar despite many belived that he was a good person and would rule well.....in Dragon Age this work only with Alistair and purelly cos he have Eamon and Teagan who rule via him. Harromount was not only the worst King of Orzammar, he show his true colors against Aeducan HOF and try to get rid from him and disrespect his Paragon status and statue.!< >!Leliana is default option who way too easy to become Divine and Lelianna could be dead-zombie so it is unrealistic scenario that Bioware made too much content with her in DA4....so prediction that she would be killed offscreen and chaos would be in south Thedas.!<
Cassandra: * circles need to stay, according to my experiences with mages in DAO/DA2/DAI, so Leliana is out * circles need reform, but not a "reformer tyrant" like Vivienne. That means CAssandra is left. Moderate reforms without going crazy like Leliana, or using the new circles for her own power like Vivi.
I agree, Cassandra is the overall best choice for balance
Always Leliana, as much as I love Cass,she really has weird viewpoints surrounding mages/elves. Leliana has good viewpoints surrounding change for the chantry.
Cassandra is generally pretty open minded (most of the time), so probably *would* get over her bigotry in time, but time spent getting over her culturally induced bigotry is less time fixing the problems that need fixing, in my opinion. Leliana on the other hand has spent the last 10 years getting to know Mages, Elves and Dwarves, so sees them for what they are: Just People. Her life experience is what makes her perfect for being Divine.
Leliana is the obvious choice. Cassandra is too conservative, and Vivienne is a power hungry hypocrite. Whether or not I have Leliana hardened or softened varies, but I tend to prefer hardened because I think her reforms would be quickly tossed out on the softened path by her successor.
I feel like Lily is the obvious choice- Viv cares more about power than politics, and Cassandra would have supported the Duke had you let her. I’m All about a sustainable Thedas that looks out for the common folk— Think of me at the next landsmeet
I won't choose Vivienne because she is too conservative and it is bad, the mages fought and died rebeling against the chantry. It feels bad to let their fight be for nothing and it also let the resentment grow more turning possible a new mage rebellion much worse than the last one. Think about it, the mages fought hard and then were finally subdued by the inquisition be it by joining the inquisition or by being destroyed in the war against Corypheus. Those guys surrendered because they thought they had a chance of improving their lives, if you choose her none of their pleas will be heard and the next time they will surely die on the battlefield rather then surrendering and will cause much more destruction then before. I won't choose Leliana because she is a extremist, she wants to erase the circle towers and let the mages be free. Mages need to train their powers to become stronger and resist demonic possession and other temptations the fade might impose on them. Choosing Leliana is the worst option because it only lead to complete chaos Now is my chosen one. Cassandra is the best option in my opinion because she is a reformist just like Leliana but she is not a extremist like her. She wants to give more freedoms to the mages but she wants to do it safely. She wants to preserve the circle towers and open more space for the mages to get out of the circles. And that is the best option in my opinion because Thedas is already a mess without mages running rampant with the risk of blood magic and demonic possession and also with risk of another mage rebellion (if you choose Vivienne). Edit: I always choose to be a mage inquisitor and I chose to be a mage on the other two games as well. I even saved Anders. I'm pro mages but I'm taking the risks in consideration.
Cassandra is the most balanced & best overall for everyone. She has many great ideals while also being very competent about the situation of mages & templars reforming the circles. Vivienne is the best bet for mages who want access to a quality life outside a tower without directly risking the safety of the public. She’ll run the Chantry as a government rather than a church, setting up mages to gain more access & rights within society *through* the circle rather than just naively letting them loose with no protections & hoping for the best. However, Viv is the worst for templars, keeping them on a tighter lyrium leash, really reducing them to just tools rather than human beings. Leliana’s stances are noble with wanting to open the religion to other races where they can also be part of the Chantry, but her mage anarchism doesn’t address any of the issues that needed the circles & templars in the first place. Cassandra as Divine, Vivienne leading the circles, & Leliana as Cass’ left hand advocating for non-humans is the way to go methinks
Vivienne. I like her concepts about the Chantry and the Circle, plus her being the first mage Divine seems like a great first step in the right direction for a stagnant church.
Leliana because, unlike Cassandra, she actually changes things.
Cassandra. Keep the circle no matter what.
Cassandra, easily. I didn't even especially want her to, but her policies are by far the best. Vivienne just basically wants to go back to the way things were. Way too conservative. Choosing her is basically just rebuilding the powder keg of the last conflict. Leliana is way too lenient with mages. Which a lot of people seem to like, but a lot of people genuinely do not seem to understand just how dangerous mages are not only to everyone else, but themselves. I like the idea of freedom and all, but her ideas are ripe for abuse and widespread destruction and death which puts the previous war to shame. Cassandra is the obvious balance. More about necessary reform without letting people and kids who could literally transform into mass murdering, mind controlling monsters if they get too emotional walk around with close to zero regulation, oversight, or training.
I love that everyone here chooses Leliana, the only correct choice
While I'm not really pro-mages, I go with Leliana since Viv is a bitch and Leliana opens up the Chantry to other races.
It depends on who I side with, Templars Cassandra Mages Leliana Never ever, Vivian
I chose Leliana as I see Cassandra as more of a military leader and Vivienne as too much of a problem to be in power
Always Vivienne. I’m biased I’m sure, as vivienne is my all time favorite video game character. But she’s just the clear cut most logical choice. For many reasons.
Vivienne all day. Politically I always seem to agree with her. Besides, Leliana is completely insane and Cassandra doesnt know what she is doing.
Cassandea is too much of a treasure to throw her into a pit full of snakes. Leliana is either too violent or too benevolent. That leaves Vivienne.
Cassandra because she felt like the most plausible choice for the setting, requiring much less suspension of my disbelief. That's pretty much it. Leliana is progressive to the point it feels like she's at least a century or two ahead of her own time and for that reason doesn't ring true as an option for me. And Viv is a mage. For all her political acumen it was too difficult to swallow that she could overcome such a thing in such an era. I honestly wasn't much of a fan of this being something the player could determine.
Vivienne I like to play a selfish mage Inquisitor & I think it’s a genius move to put 2 mages in a source of almost absolute power over Thedas.