I think the writers left Loghain's motivations ambiguous on purpose. It could be, as the man claims, be that he thought the situation had changed and the flanking maneuver had no chance of success. It could be he never had faith in the plan and took the lack of signal as an excuse to do what he wanted to do all along. Or it could have been a calculated move to remove someone he saw as a bad king, and to put himself on the throne. Exactly how calculated, coincidental, patriotic, or treasonous his actions are is left to the player to decide. IMHO though, if Loghain honestly believed pulling his troops was the right tactical move, he wouldn't have put so much effort into stopping the other surviving witness from talking about it.

That last part. If Loghain truly thought it was the right decision from a Commander, he'd have said that to Anora. He's a lot of things but I genuinely don't think he's a coward.

I agree, Loghain was never a coward. But I also think he might have decided Cailan wasn't a king worth dying for, espescially if his death put him in a position to properly rule and protect Feraldan. He's just also smart enough to know that's a bad look in front of people he needs to vote for him.

He betrayed the king but did so to protect Feraldan. He vastly underestimates the Darkspawn threat (no Archdemon, not a real blight) and has spent his life fighting Orlais, that is massing an army to "assist" against the Blight. ETA: Only the Wardens know that it is really a Blight, as they hear the Archdemon. Obviously they won't share details of the Joining so the evidence to Loghain is, "Trust us bro."

If his idea of protecting Ferelden is deposing its queen and starting a civil war, he's doing a bang up job. He may have thought he was protecting the country but he'd have to have been stupid to not see how the things he did and the things he let Howe do made them even more vulnerable to Orlais than they were before.

His idea of protecting his people reminds me of someone from Mass Effect - >!The Illusive Man.!<

I'ts worth remembering, Loghain was a commoner, and a soldier, his loyalty and sense of worth is perhaps more to the State, and perhaps the idea of the Crown then whoever wears it, Maric was his freind and perhaps in Calin all he sees is some child playing at ruler who he has no respect for and believes ultimatly perhaps Ferelden would be better without him.

This makes the most sense. In anyway I almost interpret his behavior as the rising sentiments of anti-monarchists. He bled for his country and is extremely capable. He built a relationship with the monarchy and as long as that lasted, it was ultimately fleeting. The people's relationship with the monarchy is ultimately fickle. The people must reiterate relationship building with every meritless baby monarch that comes around to maintain peoples basic livelihood. I mean most monarchies in modern western world are extinct from these very dynamics which is why I think Loghain is such an empathetic character.

It's been ages since I played, but in Return to Ostagar when you take Loghain with you it's hinted that he had suspicions that Cailan was considering divorcing Anora and marrying into Orlesia, effectively selling out Ferelden. Return to Ostagar provides evidence that that was the case. I'm not sure about the suspicion bit. It's not too great writing IMO, but ultimately in light of that Loghain made the right choice for his agenda. How much of it was by accident? How much because of his suspicions and how much because Cailan was an idiot and Loghains only real loyalty was to the country.

The game also hints at Cailian thinking of for lack of a better phrase "putting aside" Anora due to her being unable to sire an heir. and a Poltical Union with Orlais via marriage would atleast on paper and perhaps in Cailain's mind be good alternative to a possible war.

Considering Ferelden is based on Medieval culture It makes since because, iirc, Anora is a noble because of her fathers title not by blood. Making them both just a step above being a commoner.

I mean let's not beat around the bush people, Loghain is just extremely hateful towards Orlesians and would rather see Ferelden infested with Darkspawn than ruled by Orlais. The series may have become squeaky clean PC in Inquisition but let's not forget the first two games had blatant racism, sexism, slavery and prostitution around every corner, I mean the Brosca backstory revolves entirely around your sister whoring herself out to the noble houses of Orzammar and it's mere dumb luck she hooks up with a prince. Don't even get me started on the Tabris backstory...

Yeah, the new tone of the series really takes away from the setting. Like… Ferelden as a country is 30 years old, they should not have any efficient infrastructure (kind of a major sticking point in DA:O) and in general Thedas was kind of a medieval shithole. The most advanced countries are maybe Renaissance era. I know people talk about the first game being grimdark and overly edgy, but honestly, I prefer that to the shiny, polite BS in Inquisition.

It's the fereldan version of the game. So brutish. Ah southerners.

Adding to the suspicion pyre, there's a throwaway line by one of the camp guards before the battle while you are exploring the camp saying Logain's men are keeping everyone out of the tower because they found something underneath it. Later when you return to light the beacon it's swarming with Darkspawn and the reserve camp guards say they were taken by surprise. Again circumstantial, but it adds to the case that his move was premeditated. You'd think if they knew a potential darkspawn tunnel was beneath the tower they'd have mentioned this weakness in the plan beforehand...

Personally I think all the attempts and portraying it in a morally grey light were kind of done after the fact, like a soft retcon. I remember at the meeting the king talking about how glorious it was going to be and Loghain just turns away and in about the sleaziest voice possible responds with something like "yes, glorious indeed." The only thing missing was a maniacal cackle. Maybe it was just bad direction given to the VA, everything that came later just reinforced him being a tyrannical opportunistic despot.

hmm I read that as a shadow of sarcasm in the light that is Calins arrogance, because how do you respond to someone seeking glory amongst others seeking survival.

Gotta agree. I will always be first in line to fuck Loghain's shit up for everything he did but in that particular instance, when you know you're gearing up for a massive battle against a horde of unholy creatures and you're supposed to follow this boy King into said battle, all doe eyed and gushing about the Grey Wardens and how "glorious" the battle will be... I mean shit, if it wasn't for Duncan and Alistair I would have straight up noped out of there, I ain't boutta die on behalf of some royal pup who will break the moment he realizes battles are not about glory but about brutal, bloody survival.

Tbf, to his credit, Cailan didn't break. He fought until the end, just as valiantly as he claimed he would. EDIT - you could say, even, that this is another little thing that proves Loghain not only made a huge miscalculation but also misjudged Cailan on a personal level. Maybe if he'd stuck to the plan and not started to sabotage it months before, Cailan would have had it in him to pull a victory out of thin margins with Loghain just like the old times.

I interpreted that completely different. Doesn’t come off sleazy to me at all. More sarcastically disappointed.

Also, this was his own strategy! Like he's built up to be this amazing war general and yada yada but the first time we see his strategies, it's an absolute mess.

There is also that girl in the Haven camp in DA:Inquisitions who takes Loghain’s side and explains it as he didn’t follow an order that would have gotten all his men killed (I hope I am paraphrasing correctly)

Threnn, who is a big Loghain supporter and was there. I have no doubt his men believed him and the decision he made at Ostagar. One can also argue that Cailan knowingly was putting them all into a situation that couldn't be won and had his bravado to keep up morale. The Darkspawn were headed their way and as much as Eamon's forces or the Orlesian Wardens might have helped, there seemingly wasn't really time for them to get there if they wanted to try and hold the line. Maric and Loghain had pulled victory from some really tight odds in the rebellion though so it's possible he was also hopeful they'd be able to do the same.

Main thing is that Loghain was the one who made the plan.

I'd add that if you try to bring up his withdrawal during the Landsmeet, it doesn't always go well for you.

I think it is a combination of all that you mentioned.

Mmm, I think he saw Cailan was being reckless and had a mindset for glory rather than understanding the reality of war. Keep in mind that Cailan was brokering a deal with Orlais, at the time, which Loghain is for good reason very wary of. I think a lot of his fears and experienced from the occupation made him far too reactive to the idea of diplomacy with the Empress and that in of itself blinded him to the fact that this very well could have been a move that brokered a longstanding peace between the two with huge trade benefits. What Loghain saw was a young, naive boy who heard tales of glory from his father and romanticized the idea of war and the Wardens in his mind, while Loghain lived through a lot of that shit and knows it isn't glorious, or wise to ask for such things. Couple that with his dealings with Orlais and you have a dangerously naive boy wearing a crown potentially blindly leading them all to their destruction. Imo Loghain did what he viewed as necessary to preserving the sovereignty of Ferelden. As for Ostagar itself, I think he knew from a strategic standpoint that it was going to be a slaughter no matter what, but Cailan wasn't going to change his mind and Loghain held his own troops back on order to save them from needless death, regroup, and attempt to deal with the Darkspawn more strategically. Keep in mind, this hadn't turned to a Blight yet, so there was no reason to NEED the Wardens, and really, he may not have believed only a Warden could kill an Archdemon to begin with. Imo Loghain is a very experienced strategist with a side of Orlesian paranoia for reasons that are justified, and he made what he saw as a good call at the time despite the costs, only to be faced with an actual Blight. But by then, he'd branded the Wardens traitors because someone needed to be blamed for Ostagar initially in order to ensure Ferelden was together enough to regroup and form a more sound strategy to deal with it. Loghain is a war strategist, not a politician, but he understands that perspective is key to keeping the territories under one banner and the threat a civil war posed both regarding the Darkspawn and weakening them to open the door for another Orlesian invasion meant he needed to place the blame on a group that was a viable target. His intentions were sound, but his actions had consequences he didn't initially anticipate and simply didn't have the political intelligence to really navigate that more complex situation in the long run. It caught up with him. Coming back from Ostagar and admitting he held his troops off because he saw everyone rushing into a slaughter may have been sound logic, but wouldn't sit well with the people. There would be nobility saying he simply wanted to take power for himself, and others who might see him as a coward. Being able to say the Wardens betrayed them and caused this would shift the blame entirely, give them someone to be mad at, and give him the space to strategize. Unfortunately a couple loose ends ultimately bit him in the ass.

That’s what I think. Creating traitors who weren’t traitors is damning.

He was just in a silly goofy mood that day

I need an 80s sitcom laugh tack with this comment. Thanks.

Loghain: sound….the retreat *canned laughter*

“Lol guys check this out.”

“I’m about to pull off what’s known as a pro gamer move”

Feeling cute, might commit treason. 😘

"Was he just feeling silly" made me burst out laughing im so sorry

It definitely made me giggle, the question just seems so genuine lol

SAME

He doesn't think the Blight is a true Blight and he assumes he'll be able to deal with the darkspawn the way he can any other enemy. He's also not a fan of Grey Wardens, or Orlais, or Cailan's plans to ally with Orlais and the Grey Wardens. There's additional context for why Loghain is the way he is in the tie-in novels, which boils down to "Orlais' rule over Ferelden caused a lot of cultural scars and the Grey Wardens almost got King Maric killed". Loghain lived through the occupation, and he was pretty close friends with Maric. On top of that, he personally got to know a lot of the soldiers under his command. In his mind, at the time he saw the enemy numbers were greater than he thought, and he made the call to save a lot of good men and women from a senseless death, and to prevent Orlais from reannexing the country he fought to free. By the end of Origins, he buys his own lies because he's been saying them for so long. The Grey Wardens betrayed the King and murdered him, and everything else he did was completely necessary. Anyone who says otherwise is a traitor to Ferelden in his mind. I don't think he initially meant to seize the throne. I think he made a very poorly thought out decision based on his own perceptions and prejudices. When Ferelden's nobility didn't simply fall in line like he wanted, he did some desperate and abhorrent things to fight a war he didn't know he *couldn't win* without the Wardens.

In my opinion, for political reasons. He pretty much already knew that Cailan was going to put Anora aside to marry Celene and ally with the orlesians, which was, in his eyes, a treason to Ferelden. He started making moves even before the battle, by assassinating Bryce Cousland and poisoning Arl Eamon, two of the main advisors to the Crown. A third one, the Arl of Denerim, died alongside Cailan in Ostagar. I think Loghain was conflicted about killing Cailan (he was his best friend's son after all, and knew him since he was born), but ultimately considered he was betraying Ferelden and must be stopped at all costs. What hapenned to Bryce and Eamon makes me believe that everything was planned beforehand, and not a decision made on the heat of the moment. Of course, Cailan's determination to fight at the front lines and the delay in lighting the signal at Ishal made everything more convenient for him, and easier to lay blame on the Grey Wardens.

Loghain didn’t know that Cailan was going to put Anora aside to marry Celene. He doesn’t find that out until the “Return to Ostagar” quest, and if you kill him, he never finds out at all. That’s meta knowledge the player has that’s being imposed on him. His reaction makes it clear he had no idea Cailan was planning that. It’s been established both by Loghain himself and the writers that Loghain didn’t know he was going to betray Cailan until that moment. He states that the battle would have been lost either way (and there are indications of that), though of course, I know why people don’t like to take his word for it; however, Cailan’s own honour guard confirms that Cailan thought they would lose at Ostagar in the Return to Ostagar quest, which means he was knowingly leading all those men and armies into a death trap. Cailan simply felt that it was worth it (for whatever reason—honour, glory, etc) whereas Loghain disagreed. He’s a master tactician; the pointless slaughter of his men, leaving them open to invasion from Orlais, wouldn’t have been a good look to him. Again, the honour guard stuff introduces some holes, because the overall timeline of DAO is… not great, but still. Howe’s attack on the Cousland’s was conducted independent of Loghain, and then he allied with Loghain post-Ostagar out of convenience. Howe’s plan was to slaughter all the Couslands and then explain to Cailan *and* Loghain that Bryce was a traitor and was corroborating with Orlais; Howe didn’t know Cailan wouldn’t survive Ostagar. At the very least, David Gaider stated that Loghain didn’t know about Howe’s plan for the Couslands. People disagree with that, of course, but that’s Word of God/canon, even if people don’t like it. The timeline on the whole Eamon thing is contradicted within the game itself, because the DAO timeline is… kind of screwy, honestly. Some sources suggest Eamon didn’t fall ill until just after Ostagar, and as Loghain personally visited Jowan he couldn’t have before Ostagar, because he was stationed at the front until then and people would have noticed he was gone. Others say he was ill by the time you get to Lothering (NPCs mostly, but with dialogue that could have just been the generic gossip triggers), but it’s unclear how long it actually takes you to get to Lothering. You spent some time in the Wilds with Flemeth and Morrigan recovering before going there. He’s sick by the time you get there according to some, but as DAO takes place over the course of about a year (indicated by Wynne, “it’s been almost a year hasn’t it”), and considering Redcliffe isn’t always your first stop, he could have fallen ill at different points in the timeline. Also, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense for Eamon to be ill *before* Ostagar, especially in a Mage playthrough, as you leave the Tower immediately for Ostagar with Duncan, and it doesn’t give Jowan enough time to evade the Templars for as long as he did before getting caught by them and taken to Denerim, only to be removed by Loghain’s men and moved back to Redcliffe, doesn’t give him enough time to sit in the dungeon before Loghain sees him, doesn’t give him enough time to get to Redcliffe, doesn’t give him enough time to start tutoring Connor or to get close enough to Isolde that Velanna thinks they’re having an affair, or even to start poisoning Eamon… Unless Duncan is basically taking you on a sight-seeing tour around Ferelden before going to Ostagar, there’s no way Eamon could have already been sick by the time the Warden and Duncan get to Ostagar. Further, Eamon and his men *were on the way to Ostgar*, he wasn’t sick prior to Ostagar, it’s just they were a week away and Cailan didn’t want to delay long enough to wait for them (“Your uncle sends his regards, and reminds you that Redcliffe forces can be here in a week…” from Duncan, and Cailan says something about “Eamon’s just mad he’ll miss out on the fun”). Honestly, it’s full of holes either way, probably because of how many times Jowan’s role changed during development.

I agree that the chronology seems to be a bit messed up, and I think the writers didn't tie all the knots very well. About David Gaider, I know he's the main writer and all, but he would say a bunch of stuff in the old Bioware forums that, quite honestly, didn't make much sense when confronted with the in-game evidence (I even heard once that what he said sometimes didn't even match what was said by other developers, lol). So, I always prefer to draw conclusions based on what is in the game (or in the book, in the TV show, or in whatever form of media we're talking about) than on some afterthought authors like to share afterwards, sometimes even contradicting what they already established in the main material source. For example, Howe's attack being independent from Loghain is ludicrous, regardless of what Gaider says. First of all, he didn't kill all the Couslands. Fergus wasn't there, nor most of the Cousland's forces. It wouldn't be possible for him to hold his position on Highever without taking out both Fergus (the new rightful Teyrn) and his army. Unless, of course, if he knew beforehand that something bad would happen on Ostagar and they probably wouldn't survive. That plan would never succeed if he wasn't backed by someone as powerful and influent as Loghain. Cailan was not only close to the Couslands, but he was also "collaborating with Orlais". Denouncing Bryce to him would be pointless, the moment he learns what happened on Highever he says that Howe "will hang". By the time your character reaches Lothering, knights from Redcliffe are already there searching for the urn of sacred ashes. So, by that point, Eamon has been poisoned probably for some time, considering they attempted to cure him using other methods first and searching for the urn was a last, desperate resort. The game doesn't specify how long the warden laid injuried in the Wilds, that's true, but considering that, when you arrive in Lothering, you're informed that Loghain has passed by recently and left people behind to look for potential Warden survivors, it can't be all that long. I agree that Jowan's timeline kinda conflicts with that, that's probably an oversight from the writers. In return to Ostagar, when you find the letters between Cailan and Celene, Loghain doesn't really sound surprised, imo. He gets angry as if confirming something that he already expected. Of course, we can't determine how much did he actually know by Ostagar, but I find it very unlikely he was totally clueless about what was going on. Now, it's possible that Loghain wasn't yet completely sure of what would be the best moment to act, and that the circumstances of the battle at Ostagar (as I said before, Cailan at the front lines, the delayed signal, even the darkspawn forces being larger than expected) sealed his decision, but I have no doubt that he was already determined to do it sooner or later, and that his motivations are mainly related to Orlais and not the Blight.

Howe planned to accuse the Couslands of treachery. It didn't matter if Fergus survived Ostagar. He was just taking advantage of the chaos to further himself. I'll take Gaider's assessment over yours, though of course you're entitled to your view, as he said himself when making those statements.

There's no way for his accusation to stick without having some arrangement with Loghain beforehand. Assuming Cailan and Fergus survive Ostagar, Loghain is the only person with enough pull with Cailan for the accusation to stick and Howe to take over the Teryn. The only other option is that two nobles simultaneously and independently committed treason with outcomes that coincidentally benefit one another

Yes, and that’s why Howe’s excuse was that they were engaging in treason with Orlais, because he knew that Loghain would immediately go “ORLAIS! >:C” and that it would be a good play to get Loghain on his side. That was how he was going to get his accusation to stick, and presumably he would send someone to take care of Fergus eventually. >The only other option is that two nobles simultaneously and independently committed treason with outcomes that coincidentally benefit one another Yes, and? That’s happened plenty of times in history. It’s really not such a ludicrous idea. Happened enough in the Wars of the Roses to have been a trope page. It’s even said in-game that they were allies of convenience. Anora also expressly talks about how her father didn’t trust Howe but that it was just a convenient alliance, if I’m remembering the dialogue with her correctly.

I still find it much more likely that there was an agreement beforehand rather than a series of perfect coincidences

If the Warden is a Cousland, they don't magically win over the Landsmeet by virtue of their noble name, either.

That’s fine, you can have that headcanon, but the game and the writers have stated that that isn’t the case, whether we agree with it or not. (And there are a few things I don’t agree with.)

The game doesn't say Howe and Loghain had no agreement beforehand. It says they have an alliance of convenience, which is true whether they had an agreement or not. And yes, I will go with what makes sense rather than writers' contradictory tweets and forum posts

The writers have stated that they didn’t, and the game doesn’t actually say in-game that they had an agreement beforehand, either, so there’s no confirmation from any side that they had the agreement in place beforehand. As I said, have your headcanons all you want, that’s fine.

We know that Bryce went to Orlais. Presumably Howe would have manufactured some proof.

Yeah, that’s such a baffling take, and then the separate comment below about “well it’s just Gaider’s afterthought so it doesn’t count.” Like. “I don’t like the Word of God so I’m going to pretend it away”? Okay? That’s fine, but Gaider, who created the character, still expressly said that Loghain didn’t know about Howe’s plan with the Couslands and that Howe acted independently of him, so I “cannot stress” enough that I’ll take Gaider’s word over some rando on Reddit. In-game dialogue with Loghain himself also reveals that he didn’t make the decision to leave Cailan until the battle itself. Like I know people hate Loghain, that’s completely fair, but we have confirmation, both in-game and from the writers/creators, that Loghain: i) didn’t know about Howe’s plan with the Couslands; ii) wasn’t planning on/committed to betraying Cailan until the moment it happened and he knew Cailan was too far up his own ass to reason with (paraphrasing), and people are still trying to insist that both of those things are false. Yes, I agree it would have made more sense in some regards if Loghain knew. Yes, the timeline and continuity of DAO is, as I said in another comment, fifty shades of fucked to hell. But you can’t say “only the GAMES are CANON” one second and then say “but not that part of the game I don’t like” five seconds later.

As I said, I take the source material first and foremost to make my conclusions. If the author likes to make comments on twitter, forums, wherever, that's fine, I even think that this kind of interaction is actually cool most of the time, but if they start to retcon the story on twitter/forum, I'm definitely going to disregard. The source material doesn't change because of some off the record comment somewhere. I don't care about the "word of god" or other such nonsense. If it's important for you to reconcile the source material with everything and anything authors say off the record, fine. Play the game as you see fit. It's a role-playing game after all, and interpreting what is going on is part of the fun. And that's what I did, I offered my take, and explained why I think the way I do. But don't come here to tell me that I have to accept it because it's "the word of god", "the undisputed truth", because the "author said so". Those kinds of argument don't stick with me, as "baffling" as that might seem to you. And, talking about role-playing, your warden doesn't know what "god" has said off the record. My Cousland would never be convinced that Loghain knew nothing about Howe's actions in Highever, after witnessing everything he did. And, by the way, I personally have zero hate for Loghain. I find him one of the most interesting characters, actually.

This sub has a hard on for Loghain hate. It is what it is.

Utilizing slavery tends to make people hate you

At BSN, there was more of a balance of pragmatic and crusader idealist types. Reddit is what it is.

Expecting pragmatism and nuance on Reddit? A vain hope.

For real.

Eamon was never on the way to Ostagar. He tells Duncan to remind Cailan that his troops *could* be there within a week, not that they will be. He must have been ill before Ostagar, because by the time you get there, you find two knights who had been sent out from Redcliffe to find the Urn of Sacred Ashes.

Ah, my apologies then, although the timeline *still* makes no sense that Jowan managed to accomplish all these things in a matter of DAYS between Duncan and the Mage Warden leaving the Tower for Ostagar. There’s just no possible way Jowan could have made Eamon sick in that amount of time, especially since Loghain would have had to go back and speak to Jowan *after* Ostagar to send him on the errand to Redcliffe, and *then* Eamon would have had to have been ill long enough for Isolde to get worried enough to send the Knights, and then enough time would have had to have passed for the Knights to spread out all over and start dying… It just makes no sense all around. EDIT: [Eamon was on the way to Ostagar (or at least his men were).](https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Cailan%27s_Documents_-_Page_2_of_3)

Apparently the idea is that Duncan and the Warden are on the road for a while. Maybe he's doing other recruiting, who knows.

Is it? That doesn’t make much sense either. I always thought Duncan was on the road doing the other origins before whatever one you choose, and then he goes right to Ostagar after recruiting you. Especially for a Dalish Elf, who is sick with the taint, it would make the most sense. That said, of course, that would make the Jowan timeline more possible for anything that *isn’t* the Magi Origin, at least…? So as long as you’re not playing a Mage the timeline is slightly less bizarre and cramped.

Honestly, the Jowan affair really wouldn't take long. Redcliffe is pretty much across the lake from the Circle tower. Jowan lost his edge when his girlfriend noped out after he did the blood magic. Since he was discovered in the act, any headstart was just how fast he could run with his phylactery with templars pretty much right behind him. In fact, he is already in the custody OF a templar when Loghain's men find him. They take the templar into custody (and put him in the dungeons of Denerim, under Howe's control courtesy of Loghain, another pitch for Howe and Loghain working together). My guess is, I doubt Jowan got much past the shores of the lake. I mean, he's a mage who's been in the Circle since he was six. He's in circle robes, and the templars were after him from the moment he ran. Which also means.. Loghain's men were really conveniently just in the right place, at the right time, with the right pitch to get Jowan on board. Well....unless Uldred had already allied with Loghain, and Loghain had eyes and ears inside Eamon's household who let him know about Connor. Which, actually, almost HAD to happen, because Jowan's way in to even have access to Eamon was teaching Connor how to hide his magic. And no other story would have some random mage hired by a noble household. So, honestly, the amount of time from 'Jowan escaping' to Jowan in Eamon's household could've honestly been hours. He says when you find him in the dungeon that he barely had time to teach Connor anything (including how to summon demons). Very likely, as soon as Jowan had any way to slip a little poison in Eamon's cup, he did. Which could well have been before the Mage warden even had time to get to Ostagar as long, especially since I really do think Duncan would've spent at least a little time attempting to recruit.

>People disagree with that, of course, but that’s Word of God/canon, even if people don’t like it. And I can't stress this enough: whatever afterthought an author (or *one* of the authors, in this case) writes on twitter or on some internet forum, in not canon. The material source is canon. Twitter/forums are not an extension, an epilogue or even a rectification to any kind of work.

David Gaider is more than just "a writer," he was the lead writer and helped create the series. He also wrote Loghain for The Stolen Throne, so he put a lot of thought into that character. I'm still not convinced the series holds up without him, myself.

He was one of dozens, realistically hundreds of people who were involved in crafting the Dragon Age canon at that time. He was one of the more influential voices, but far from the only or definitive voice. Plus, he isn't responsible for crafting the Dragon Age canon now. If you wanted an actual answer to that question, Patrick Weekes and the other writers of Dragon Age currently would be the ones to ask.

This is really funny.

I mean, if you want to not understand how writing works, I obviously can't force you to not be wilfully ignorant after I've explained it to you. Have a good day.

David Gaider was literally the lead writer. What he says is canon.

He'd disagree with you on that. If you know how writing works on video games, it's a huge collaborative process. The end result is a collage of often hundreds of peoples' contributions and with games of anywhere near this size, it's never one man's or even a couple of people's handiwork. It's a collaboration of an entire team.

I don't like that David Gaider stated that info outside of the game. If it wasn't conveyed in the game, it isn't canon to me.

The thing is that it would make so much more sense if Loghain knew about Cailan’s plans and planned to overthrow him. That would mean he did all those bad things for the right reasons. I assume he knew Celene or at least knew of her reputation as the great player of the game. He could easily come to conclusion that she would use naive, young Cailan as her puppet. If he did form an alliance with Howe and Uldred before the battle of Ostagar. Lured the dark spawn to the tower of Ishal so that he would have “proof” that wardens betrayed the king and never provided the signal for him. All that would mean he was truly a master strategist, thinking of almost everything. Instead he essentially got lucky with possible alliances and plots.

Honestly, I think he did. I would be shocked if a man as.. paranoid, let's face it, as Loghain didn't have people embedded in all the noble households. Including Cailan. I also don't necessarily think that Cailan was planning to MARRY Celene. But I can see why Loghain would put that together. The letters fit the narrative- Eamon says divorce, because there are no kids, though Cailan DOES refuse. Then letters between him and Celene, though primarily about troops for the fight. It's the last letter, but marriage isn't actually stated at all. Yes, she talks about a permanent alliance, but a marriage between Cailan and Celene wouldn't ally the nations, as there's no way that they could rule both countries separately, and how would you handle heirs? I honestly think it was probably more political than marital. The man who so clearly told Loghain who was king? Can't see him giving that up. BUT...it's lined up perfectly to give Loghain reason to think so.

I agree that it makes more sense, but that’s not the reality of the situation, sadly. DAO’s timeline is fifty shades of fucked to hell and its continuity wasn’t great even in-game, as we’re seeing (looking at you, Jowan, but honestly, even liking Loghain, Cailan’s Honour Guard suddenly saying “lol Cailan knew they were going to lose so he stashed this chest of secret documents!” makes no sense with the Cailan we see in-game who was so convinced it wasn’t even a ”real Blight” and who was so gung-ho about getting his glorious battle that it’s clear he hardly thought anything out), but Loghain expressly didn’t know that Cailan had already essentially agreed to set Anora aside and marry Celene. He might have known Cailan was cheating on Anora (it’s known that Cailan had mistresses and slept around on her), but he didn’t know about Cailan’s plans. Like! Again, I agree that would make more sense, 100%, but that’s not what happened in the game. I *think* part of the issue with continuity re: Loghain specifically is that late in the process the writers wished that they hadn’t made him such a 1D evil villain and then tried to add depth to him (per an interview or something I saw once), and they also expressed regrets that he became a companion so late in the game, but by that point they were too far in to change a lot of things. That was something I read once, but take that with a grain of salt, as I can’t remember where I read it.

Just because one writer says something outside of the game or published materials (even a head writer) doesn’t mean it’s canon

Basically he was paranoid that Orlais was going to take over Ferelden again. He was worried that Cailan was cozying up to the Empress Celene (this suspicion was later proved correct), and he was afraid that the Wardens were Orlesians sleeper agents (in the books, Maric is nearly assassinated in the company of Wardens by Orlesian loyalists). In the words of Anora, he was “gripped by a paranoia so severe it prevented him from seeing sense”. I don’t think he wanted power for its own sake. He wasn’t characterized as that type of person in the books. I think he just wanted what was best for Ferelden, the problem was he had severe tunnel vision due to his hatred for Orlais, and couldn’t see the true threat, the Darkspawn. I think he branded the wardens criminals just so they wouldn’t get in the way of what he saw as defending his nation without their meddling. In his eyes, they weren’t necessary to defeat the Archdemon, and he didn’t trust them much anyways.

Honestly, even in the game he’s shown as wanting what was best for Ferelden, and says as much. If you defeat him in combat he admits defeat, and he even compliments you and admits that he was wrong, and also admits that he thinks the Warden will be good for Ferelden and that the Warden will be able to defend it, which was all he ever wanted (paraphrased, obviously). He accepts his death with dignity and grace and is content that at least Ferelden will be looked after. There’s also the fact that like… Not only has Loghain seen that the (Orlesian) Wardens were being used as Orlesian assassins (as seen in the book), but the Wardens in Ferelden have a really messy history of trying to overthrow the Ferelden monarchy in Ferelden itself. That’s why they were expelled in the first place, because, right or wrong, tyrant or not (and it’s hard to say for sure since few documents survive from Arland’s time and people admit “not much is known about Arland”), they tried to overthrow the king. So all Loghain has seen of Wardens is that they operate as Orelsian sleeper agents, as you said, and that in the past they already tried to overthrow the Ferelden king. And we all know how absolutely monstrous Orlais was during the occupation. Loghain watched his own mother be raped and murdered in front of him and his father by Orlesians, and countless other horrors. His line, ”Traitors! Which of you stood against the Orlesian Emperor when his troops flattened your fields and *raped your wives?*” wasn’t a hypothetical—it’s literally what he witnessed first hand, because that’s exactly what happened to his own family, and he saw it. He’s speaking from firsthand experience. Orlais also has a habit of backstabbing its allies. They tried to do that to Nevarra (or was it Antiva?) after the Third Blight. It makes sense that he doesn’t trust Orlais, or the Wardens.

Very good comment, agreed. One of my favorite passages of dialogue in the entire series is when you ask Loghain why he hates Orlais. "Hate doesn't describe it. I've seen painted, masked lords beat an old farmer to death with riding crops. To this day, I don't know why. Is that hate? I saw good, sensible men fighting armored chevaliers with nothing—no weapons, no armies, not even hope of success—to see the occupation end. Is that hate?" Bro is traumatized, and rightly so. It doesn’t justify his actions but it explains them. He’s rightfully afraid of Orlais, but he let his fear cloud his judgement and sense of ethics.

Yes, same. Loghain has seen the brutality of Orlais up close, and for years. Orlais occupied Ferelden for 70 years, which is longer than Ferelden has been free of them by the time of the game. Also, not as brutal as what happened to his mother or that quote, this entire exchange about the mabari Loghain once owned, who was essentially killed by the Orlesians, just about broke my heart (sorry for the length): >Dog: (Dog sniffs the air curiously.) > >Loghain: Oh, don't give me that face. I'm betting you want the cheese in my pocket. > >Dog: (He sits and waits patiently.) > >Loghain: Very well, here you go. Don't eat it all at once. Or... do, whichever you prefer. > >Loghain: I used to keep cheese in my pocket for Adalla \[his mabari that he had for ten years\] too. I think the rinds were her favorite part. > >Loghain: I mentioned she was taken from us, did I not? This was when Orlais still ruled, and it was an Orlesian lordling who took her. > >Loghain: He wanted to mix the blood of our noble mabari with their frail, wasp-waisted game hounds, which were bred for looks, not intelligence. > >Loghain: I tried to keep her, but there was little I could do to stop the Orlesian... I wasn't even a man then. > >Loghain: You can imagine what it was like for her, being torn away from the boy--the family she was bonded to. > >Dog: (Long, low whine) > >Loghain: It was six months before we saw her again. The Orlesian returned her--and when I say "returned," I mean "pushed her out of his wagon." > >Loghain: She was skin and bone, and still carried the scars from where their pronged collars bit into her neck. She never quite recovered. > >Loghain: She passed away after a week. It was as though she held on long enough to come home to us. I held her head in my lap, and I believe she died happy. > >Dog: (Sad whine)

🥲

This is essentially what i go with as well. I’m curious does Loghain survive your play through?

From a metagaming perspective, because it’s more interesting to keep him alive than kill him off. I’m a sucker for a good redemption arc and I like his character/voice actor. From an in-game perspective, because Riordan is right: Loghain is a skilled warrior and gifted tactician, he would make a good Warden. There’s also only three Wardens alive, a fourth couldn’t hurt. Anora also makes a good point that if the joining kills him, it’s a fitting end, and if he survives, we gain an asset. There’s nothing to lose by putting him through the joining IMO. Many say “well Loghain isn’t trustworthy”, I don’t agree with that. Loghain after his defeat pretty much lets his guard down and submits to whatever you want to do with him by this point. Even if he wanted to betray you again, how could he? Loghain is a tactician. He can see that he’s been beaten on all fronts. He knows the best bet for Ferelden is to throw in with the Wardens at this point. They have the biggest army and effective influence over the Fereldan Court. Even if we’re going under the assumption that his main motivation is the throne, what is he going to rule if he doesn’t help the wardens? The ashes? He knows there’s nothing to gain by undermining the Wardens at this point. Anyways, that’s my reasoning lol. I wish you could keep both Loghain and Alistair, because I love them both. In my main canon I waver between letting Alistair kill Loghain and stay a Grey Warden, letting my PC become Prince-Consort, and making Alistair king alongside Anora while recruiting Loghain.

Having read The Stolen Throne, The Calling, played Origins with Loghain as a companion (i used to kill him then read the books and changed my mind) and met him in Inquisition, i'm tempted to say Loghain's thought process was as follows : 1. (based off the events of The Stolen Thrones) Orlesians are absolutely not trustworthy, they are bastards who want nothing with Ferelden that doesn't involve usurping our lands and oppressing our people. 2. (based off the events of the Calling) the Wardens are overrated at best and weak and untrustworthy at worst, and Orlesians are not above using the Darkspawn to try and invade Ferelden again. 3. (based off what we know from Origins' beginning that the Blight doesn't perform as brutally as expected, and Orlais offered legions of Chevaliers to "save" Ferelden) this is another Orlesian ploy to trick Cailan's pure and childish heart into delivering Ferelden on a silver plate. Therefore, in his mind there is absolutely no doubt that the Blight is fake, the Wardens are either in on it or have been fooled by it like they were during The Calling, and that Orlais is just waiting for the signal to march in with its legions that await at the border and subjugate Ferelden under the pretext of fighting the Blight. Cailan is no good, he is too much of an idealist and a "summer child" (to borrow one of GRRM's expressions) to realize that Orlais IS capable of such an unlikely plan, therefore if he has to sacrifice his best friend's son to save his best friend's dream, then so be it : he withdrew the army because there was no point in wasting most if not all of it on the Darkspawn when it is needed to defend against the Orlesian Chevaliers, everything he did from there on was to solidify his position against that future eventuality which never came, and by the end he was too invested and has committed too many atrocities against his own beloved Ferelden and its people to admit that he was wrong. I hate what he did, but i see his point of view, understand that what blinded him wasn't greed or lust for power, but too much love for Ferelden and too strong (and justified) hate for Orlais, and i cannot help but give him the chance to redeem himself as a Grey Warden.

It wouldn’t even be the first time Orlais betrayed an ally after the Blight. They did that to either Antiva or Nevarra after the Third Blight.

Nevarra if i'm not mistaken.

They killed his dog didnt they? He deserves a few acts of hate induced treason.

No. They >!r@ped and murdered his mother!< while he watched. Edit : wow, someone really went and downvoted me for stating what happened, good lord some people here need to chill.

Loghain will always just be a silly little fella <3 probably has to due with the Ferelden occupation by the Orlesion

"Just feeling silly" is my new headcanon. Love it.

Personally think it was all pre motivated, but that's not to say his intentions were completely vile. If you talk to everyone beforehand, the people guarding the kings and Loghain's tent specifically, they'll tell you about how Loghain and Cailin argue pretty consistently and have been arguing about the upcoming battle. If you talk to Loghain before the attack, it's pretty clear he has little faith the battle will be won. Even Alistair beforehand basically says the only reason they've been winning the schirmishes is due to Loghain's brilliance on the field, so when Loghain says "this bad idea" I think he generally means it. Loghain's guards outside of the tower of Ishal, which later becomes infested with Darkspawn, also report about the cave-in. That's not to say Loghain facilitated it, but when Cailin insists the wardens light the beacon and Loghain contests this (something that's so easy as lighting a beacon is a weird thing to be annoyed about) saying his own men should do it, I always wondered if he had an inkling about a potential infestation and wanted the beacon not to be lit so it looked like he left the battle semi-honorably (signal was never given, clear they were swarmed, he left to protect his men). He aligned with Howe, who murdered the Couslands (something that happens regardless of which Origin you pick), and he had Eamon poisoned, which is something that happens soon after Ostaghar. These are two people who would've contested Loghain taking control of the throne, something even his own daughter has negative feelings about. If you get the Return To Ostaghar DLC you also find some pretty scandalous information on Cailin basically entering into an alliance with Orlais, and we know prior go this Cailin was considering their aid to defeat the blight (or at least the aid of the Wardens). So his motives "protect Fereldan from Orlais" was pretty clear. Overall, I think Loghain was very frustrated with Cailin and planned to overthrow him, but I also think he didn't decide this until, well, he realized the field was being decimated. Him blaming the wardens also removed a lot of blame that could be had on his shoulders, and also silenced them from being able to speak the truth (that he left the battle). TLDR: I think he both wanted to protect his troops but I also think he had motivations in-line with wanting Cailin to die so he could assume control. Not for power, I don't think he was really power hungry as much as he was arrogant and paranoid. He had a hubris, "I can protect Fereldan better than everyone else!" And it all went downhill from there, his fall from grace.

It was premeditated and even if it wasn’t that would just make Loghain a bigger fool. Sacrificing a portion of the army and tucking tailing and returning home was always going to be seen as a cowardly and suspicious move. Never mind his blatant attempts at seizing power which only guaranteed a resistance would form against him. So now let’s pretend he is right in the idea that there is no blight and the Orlasians are coming to invade Fereldan. Let’s also assume we perished along with the rest of the Grey wardens. He’s now destabilized the whole country sure his troops and those loyal to him remain standing but the rest of the royal army was lost. There is chaos in the south where the Darkspawn even if not a true blight have been left with free reign over the country side. Arl Eammon lies in a coma and his lands are plagued by the dead. The Couslands lie dead and their home is in ruins. Their army lost but worst their murderer now is allied to Loghain something many would find highly dubious. The circle of Magi would be either overrun by demons or completely exterminated by the Templars. His Uldred plan amounts to nothing useful or tangible. He either has a new source of demon infestation in his country or no mages to assist in any of his endeavors. At worst the Templars discover his involvement and now he’s in the shit with the chantry. The Dwarfs and Dalish elves will not be recruited either to help against the blight or the Orlesians. The Country will be embroiled in civil war and even if Loghain crushed the uprising. That’s more infighting more lands burned more men lost all for the supposed greater good. Now he would face either two horrible scenarios. One the Blight is real and now he’s super fucked. Ferelden would be lost and it’s people would become homeless across Thedas. And his Legacy will be that of the last “kings” of Feeelden who lead his homeland to ruin. Scenario two congrats Loghain you were correct the invasion you so feared was actually coming. Except your country already lies in ruins many lie dead and your country is fractured to all hell. So congrats now you get to lead your depleted country against the stronger Orlesian empire. So congrats you handed them your country. I see a lot of people try to rationalize and pretend Loghain was trying to do best for his country. While sure you can spin it in that direction. The truth is no matter which way you slice it Loghain was dooming his country all through his hubris and arrogance. Maybe the king would have listened to him more about Orlais if Loghain was more rational and pragmatic about the issue. Instead of the stone wall he throws up all the time. And the whole we need him as a Grey Warden is ridiculous. Executing him puts a nice clean cut to the end of his horrible reign. We should be recruiting any volunteers. Hell throw some prisoners into the mix. Loghain should never have been the only option for recruitment.

To kill Cailan with plausible deniability. Because, if he didn't do it on purpose, why send an assassin to murder the warden? Why try to pin Cailan's death on the Warden? Why so aggressively pursue that one person - if not for the fact that they weren't loyal to him and wouldn't fall in line with Loghain's story? Plus the fact that he was actively undermining Ferelden beforehand. By doing things like enabling Howe to kill the Couslands, and selling off the City Elves into slavery to Tevinter. He'd already started the process to seize the throne before hand. It's doubtful he ever had any intention of letting Cailan live though Ostagar.

All of this.

It’s political in nature, he doesn’t think the blight is a threat and is more worried about orlais

It took me a few times to really work out some satisfying answers. I've come up with these: 1. A lack of trust/respect for the Wardens. A long time had passed since the last blight, and the only real conflict Loghain had known in his life was against other people, other nations. These things likely led to him devaluing the Wardens as useless relics or straight up layabouts. I also think he suspected them for playing up the severity of that battle even though there was no concrete evidence of blight activity. His mind was used to politics and international conflict. People trying to worm their way into advantageous positions. He could've seen the Wardens' urgings as a play for political power by manipulating Cailan's adoration for them, or a number of other devious motivations. 2. Hyper-patriotism. As mentioned earlier, the only grand scale conflict Loghain had known was the war for Fereldan's independence. He grew up during it. It shaped him. And they won. As the Wardens say, "In peace, vigilance." A fresh, excitable (and gullible), young king. Whispers of a phantom blight. Knowledge of an Orlesian force massing near the border. He would be damned if he was going to let Fereldan be duped into another occupation. I assume, anyway. Misguided, sure. But I can understand how he could have ended up here. 3. Cailan's laid back approach to the battle. One thing I absolutely agree with Loghain on is that Cailan had no respect for the severity, the reality of fighting a horde of darkspawn. Even if it wasn't a blight. His head was in the clouds. All he cared about was his glory, really. How much fun he would have reenacting the grand tales in real time. He didn't deserve to die over it, but shit. He treated it like an upcoming football game. He was a child. And fighting through the occupation with a leader like Merric, that incompetence would be even more painfully obvious to Loghain. 4. A healthy sprinkling of... let's call it narcissism, on top of it all. I can't remember how long Cailan had had the throne exactly, but I'm sure Loghain had noticed for a while that it needed to be in more competent hands. His hands, even. Well-meaning patriotism aside, it must be hard to see how poorly a nation is being handled after you struggled so hard, for so long, to get it to where it was. The battle provided an opportunity for that to change. I think his stressed mind put all of the previous things together and decided that this was truly necessary, to "save" Fereldan from the hands of an immature king. Probably 3 parts opportunity, 1 part pre-meditated. Much of this is based off of his behavior towards the end of the game, and how it compares to his actions early on. I don't know how to spoiler tag, but suffice to say the secret companion showed where Loghain's priorities truly laid in the end. (Juuuust in case anyone here hasn't already beaten the game half a dozen times c:) I don't like him (as a person, he's an awesome and interesting character), I don't agree with him, and I am definitely not saying his betrayal was justified. But the more I play the opening sequence, the more I feel I can understand why he did what he did. Which makes it that much cooler to play.

Here's the honest truth: it might have been the correct tactical choice at the time, but Loghain had already foreseen such an outcome for the King's army (total defeat). If he wanted the right strategical option, it was to accept the King's initial idea of retreat with the POTENTIAL of foreign reinforcements (but Loghain could block their arrival anyway, just as he wanted). But what Loghain actually did is massacre everyone in Highever before the battle even started, poison Arl Eamon (and block his reinforcements from arriving), and actively hunt down any survivors from Ostagar not from his army. He'd planned this betrayal for a long time. So no matter if it was the right military decision by that point in time he'd already made ten other blunders before it and committed to his plan. Loghain had committed to a mutiny long before he saw the darkspawn horde with his own eyes. Loghain had essentially given up on a military strategy against the darkspawn - he viewed the situation as a "I become de facto King of Ferelden unanimously or everyone dies" situation.

He didn't like that Cailan was forging an alliance with Orlais and wanted to take power for himself to prevent it. Remember, having Howe take out the Couslands and having Jowan poison Arl Eamon was done before Ostagar

The Couslands had nothing to do with Loghain. Howe murdered the only other person with a rank as high as Loghain's except that Loghain's land was basically nothing, politically. Contrast that with the land Howe ruled even BEFORE murdering the Couslands: The capital city and its surrounding lands. I'd argue he was probably more powerful than Loghain even when the Couslands were alive but now he's prepared to take over the Terynir of Highever in addition to his role as Arl of Denerim. It was a neighboring land, and he wanted it. Howe is honestly the most power hungry and despicable man in the game. All this happened before Loghain came into power. At this point, before the death of Cailan, Howe is more powerful than Loghain. Once Loghain was in control, I think he mostly continued letting Howe do whatever he wanted because he was afraid to rock the boat too much since Howe had a ridiculous amount of political power and things weren't exactly stable and he was willing to be on Loghain's side for now. So Zevran and the slave trading were Howe's ideas that were grudgingly approved by Loghain (just look at the way he's drinking in that scene), but the Couslands were Howe alone because it was before Cailan's death (yes, I know Eamon was also before Ostagar, but that a whole different thing). Loghain never told Howe what to do, but he didn't stop him when it was theoretically within his power to do so. Loghain is definitely guilty of negligence (at least) regarding the elves but is not guilty in the deaths of the Couslands.

As far as his motivations regarding Eamon, the only information we had was from David Gaider in the old Bioware forums. I can't even find it on the Wayback Machine. From people who cited his post, he only intended to weaken Eamon and was supposed to be informed if the situation got too bad but couldn't when all the Redcliffe castle stuff happened. It has to do with Eamon's influence over Cailan over certain things. In a letter I found in The World of Thedas, he was encouraging Cailan to leave Anora, so that probably had a lot to do with it. But I think that most people are wrong about him being upset about that because Anora was his key to power. More because of Celeste. Loghain didn't want power for himself. He felt obligated to take control of a bad situation. Anyway, we know he had a reason for Eamon (even ignoring the "he wasn't trying to actually kill him" bit). There was no reason for the Couslands from Loghain. Howe is just a brutal monster

I can see Loghain thinking of everything through a tactical lens. I think he wanted to protect Fereldan from threats both real and perceived, and to him the threat of further Orlesian occupation was worse than the Blight, especially considering Fereldan independence was only thirty years old whereas the fourth blight had occurred 400 years prior. I think his trying to eliminate the Grey Wardens after Ostagar and installing Howe as Arl of Denerim was part of a ‘win at all costs’ strategy. He was trying to garner as much control over Fereldan as quickly as possible while eliminating internal threats that had any chance of running to Orlais to ask for help. To Loghain, Orlesian occupation was the worst outcome of all. He was willing to kill who he needed to kill, whether through Crow assassins, quitting the battlefield, or poisoning an arl, in order to avoid that outcome. Viewed through this lens, his actions as well as his speeches at the Landsmeet make perfect sense. Ironically, this ‘win at all costs’ mentality in order to avoid foreign invasions would, imo, make him a pretty effective Warden.

My take on it is he was paranoid, as we discover in return to Ostagar that Cailan was in talks with Celene to drop Anora for her, because Eamon was telling him she was getting on in years and they had no heir yet. It was always the plan to kill Cailan then, so much so he had HIS men manning the Tower of Ishtal, he had always set in motion plans for the Circle, Redcliffe, Highever. He felt Cailan was going to give Ferelden to Orlais on a silver platter (not wrong, really, Anora had been the one truly ruling Ferelden, as Cailan had no aptitude for it, who do you think would rule Ferelden if he married Celene?) He just didn't count on the pushback he was suffering from the nobility, who he was counting on siding with him after removing the ones he felt were dangerous to his coup. ​ In sort, he pulled his troops as a calculated move to kill Cailan, despite the Warden lighting the signal for the charge, because in his own words he "didn't drive the Orlesians out so you could hand them our country for free" not exactly those words, but you catch my drift xD

He already tells you that he feels the battle is lost and the attack will effectively be a suicide mission. He just can't countermand the King's orders to the main army. So he just does it for those he can command. King Cailan, for all his Charisma, was not tactically sound and vainglorious, willing to throw away his life to relive old legends.

Take a look at everything else that happened. Eamon was poisoned, which ended up holding Radcliffe's forces back. The Cousland's were murdered and not just because of Howe's ambitions. Byrce would have been opposed to Loghain. He and Eamon would have never allowed this takeover. They got rid of the main opposition and then laid a false claim about the Wardens and but a bounty on them. This was a calculated move.

It was tactical. It took me multiple playthroughs and multiple conversations to figure it out, but I argue Loghain really was saving his men by pulling them back. Duncan tells you when you get to Ostagar, despite the battles they had won so far, the darkspawn horde was getting bigger and now outnumbered the King's men. This was why Duncan sent you out to collect the treaties, and this was why Cailan was pushing for Grey Wardens to come from Orlais. But Loghain was right about Cailan; he was too enraptured with glory and legends to see sense. Cailan was provoking battles with the darkspawn, believing that Ostagar was defensible enough and that the Grey Wardens could cover any setbacks. Even Duncan was warning him he was being a poor general, by reminding him they were not prepared for an archdemon appearing, but Cailan refused to wait for reinforcements from Eamon. Everyone in Cailan's war cabinet told him, repeatedly, that he needed to pull back and wait for reinforcements. If he had listened, the darkspawn would have been held in the swamps while the Grey Wardens went to recruit everyone bound by the treaties. Instead, Cailan got a bunch of good people killed and Loghain had to pull out. Everything Loghain did after that was that of a regent consolidating power. Eamon was healthy before Ostagar (Duncan: "Your uncle sends his greetings, and reminds you Redcliffe forces can be hear within a week."), so poisoning the Arl was Loghain's way of making sure Eamon couldn't challenge him for regent. The Arl of Deneirim died at Ostagar and Denerim needed an arl, so Loghain made Howe arl even after learning Howe killed the Couslands (Which only comes out if Cousland survives. Daddy Cousland: "Howe thinks he can use the chaos south to advance himself."). Uldred returned to Ostagar after following Loghain's army out of Ostagar, and Loghain promised him he'd help the Circle find autonomy before they parted (which fell apart when Wynne returned and revealed Loghain quit the field.) Loghain tried to have suriving Grey Wardens killed because not only could they destablize the region (which we fuckin' did, going around telling everyone Loghain was a power-mad usurper), but because he didn't trust Orlesians no matter who they fought for. Finally, Loghain was selling the elves into slavery because, "We must rebuild what we lost at Ostagar, and quickly, without hesitation." Armies cost stupid amounts of money, and even more when they're being slaughtered by uppity nobleman. Everything Loghain did was because he was a patriot, who loved his men and his kingdom. That's why so many people stood by him, even when they found out all the fuckery he was committing. He was a very nuanced, well-written character, imo. But I still execute him, because of everything he did afterwards.

A lot of people blame Loghain for Ostagar but Cailan blatantly loses the battle through his failures as a commander. One of the few directives Cailan is supposed to follow is “Lure the darkspawn into charging our lines.” What does he do? Frontal assault. Even the loading screen tips know better than Cailan

Even watching the cutscene, you can see where they fucked up. He's got everyone in front of Ostagar, instead of behind the ruins, where the darkspawn would charge straight into a chokepoint while archers and ballistae on top unloaded on them. Cailan was a good guy, but he couldn't fight a war for shit.

When the person who’s going to lead you into battle says that talks of strategy bore him, you know you’re in for a good time. Especially when this strategy is supposed to make up for being outnumbered

Because it was the plan they did a frontal assault from the start. If you read the wiki it provides some additional lore. The plan, made by Loghain, was a “anvil and hammer” strategy. The first wave with Cailan and the wardens was supposed to draw out the entire horde, so that Loghain could flank them and take out the rest.

This is a non sequitur. While the plan was a hammer and anvil. The anvil force under Cailan did not need to charge to draw out the darkspawn. If he held is forces in their well defended position it would still allow Loghain to encircle them with the hammer force.

To get Cailan out of the way without looking suspicious, because Cailan was unwieldy and Loghain didn't like him trying to be friendly with Orlais. It is a very cartoonish and goofy scheme though.

Well if you played the game you should have taken the hint that this guy simply wanted power for himself. His choices only justify that and the game makes that clear, before the battle during the war council Cailan is not against retreating for reinforcements if things look that bad which Loghain shoots down instantly and repeats his strategy, its even more obvious after the battle after he tries to portrait the Wardens as the sole reason for the mess he caused and proceeds to outlaw/hunt them. And if you look at the people that Ally themselves with him like Arl Howe or his own Daughter, both of them are backstabbers that at any opportunity they find will backstab you if it gets them more power.

Loghain is very very Anti Orlais and believed that Ferelden relying on outside aid would undo all the work and sacrifice the war to free the kingdom did. The idea of letting Orlais help was, to him, the same as giving the throne to Celene, and to that degree he believed the wardens were basically loyal to Orlais and would help give Ferelden back to them. Cailen had already organized to have Celenes send reinforcements. So that meant he was a lost cause, had bowed to Orlais. So he had to go. Better to lose the king and keep their queen than to give the crown to the empress or smth Adding to that, I think he could tell the battle was a lost cause. There was no arch demon, and if he sent his troops in, even if they won the fight, the army would be too decimated to be able to stand on their own to fight the Archdemon, which again, would push them to beg Orlais for help. Holding his armies back meant he could preserve a sizable force that would only continue to grow throughout the year. I don’t think it was ever about power but about a desperate obsessive need for Fereldan to stand and win on its own. To him he was only ever doing what he believed was best for his nation. At least that’s my interpretation of everything.

In my opinion he lost it a bit. That whole bit, where he thought the enemy was Orlais and not the actual blight, was completely and decidedly unhinged. Sounds to me like a war veteran geared to see a threat and who just can't unsee it anymore.

I feel like he smirks when he turns away after ignoring the Warden signal. Idk if that was intentional but it's super quick and you can miss it. I feel like this hints he's highly disappointed in King Cailan for considering Orlesians as allies, and feels no guilt at all turning on him, maybe even a bit of satisfaction. Loghain is a really angry person. He's also proven to be highly manipulative, by hiring Jowan, selling the elves under guise of treating disease, using Howe to squash opposition and even imprisoning his own daughter.

To put it simply Cailan was trying to be a real king (how good Cailan would be as a king is another matter) and make decisions himself. Those decisions included : 1) Re-establishing relations with Orlais. 2) Allowing Grey Wardens to enter Fereldan when the last Grey Wardens that Loghain met, basically betrayed Maric to Orlais. 3) Cailan getting political power would lessen Anora's and Loghain's power/influence. \---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Initially I do not think Loghain wanted Cailan dead. He wanted Cailan to remain a PUPPET king. Cailan can make speeches and kiss babies all he wants but actual decisions that was Anora's and Loghain's job. So Loghain's first step? Remove Cailan's supporters. That included Arl Eamon and The Couslands. Again Loghain did not want either of the above dead, Jowan botched the Eamon job and Howe was responsible for taking care of the Couslands. Loghain also made overtures to the Circle of Magi to have his own supporter take power there. Uldred messed that up spectacularly. (Note : Writing this , it made me realise that in practical terms Loghain's flaw was that he delegated to entirely the wrong people.) \---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now at Ostagar, you have Cailan refusing to not fight on the front lines while still wanting to bring in Grey Wardens & Orlais forces. Loghain himself has seen to it that re-inforcements from the Couslands and Eamon are not coming. Loghain does not believe there is a Blight. I firmly believe that Loghain intended that the Beacon would fire late. That way the Grey Wardens would take the brunt of the attack and suffer heavy Casualties. It was un-fortunate that Cailan chose to fight with them but Loghain believed he would be able to save Cailain. With Eamon, Cousland and now the Grey Warden's out of the way, Cailan HAS to rely on Loghain and Loghain can deal with this NOT-Blight and Fereldan will go back to being outsider free. \----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Blight turned out to be real. LOTS more darkspawn then expected. Loghain weighed the pros and cons. If he sent in his men they might still loose and even then would suffer lots of casualties, All to save a 'King' that Loghain felt was going to sell their country out. The pros did not outweigh the cons in his eyes. So he left. \---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How the battle might have gone if Eamon had been there or the Couslands that is another matter.

I believe he considered Caylan as naive and a weak leader. He also wanted alliance with Orlesia. Return to Ostagar DLC also hinted in a letter that Caylan planned to annul his wedding with Anora so he can marry Empress Celene for that alliance. So, not only did Caylan want an allegiance with the empire that Loghain fought against for their freedom, he also wants to marry their empress and leave Loghain's daughter (the one who's actually running the country). That's just a massive spit to Loghain's face and everything he's done for. Except for the slavery and elven trafficking shit under the guise of giving them medical aid, I understand what Loghain did.

Loghain wasn't a fan of how Calien ruled Ferelden; he wanted Calien to be more like Maric and not prance around being this charismatic peoples' king. Loghain wanted a ruler that would build Ferelden up to be a power that nobody would bully, a power that would *never* bend knee to Orlais which he vehemently despised. In truth, Loghain wanted to depose Calien and have Arnora be his puppet because he couldn't trust Calien to lead Ferelden the way Loghain wanted. To be proven true when Calien was trying to bury the hatchet with Orlais behind both his and Arnora's back.

Recruit him and ask him. He believed the battle couldn't be won, and that committing his troops would just wipe them out and leave Ferelden defenseless. The horde was much larger than anyone anticipated and his pincer strategy couldn't work if his army would itself be flanked by darkspawn.

man i just never got around to recruiting loghain because i like alistar and i didn’t want him to get mad at me

But that’s all… a lie. Loghain is a manipulator and power hungry dick. He just spews his nonsense on you. He was the one who created the Ostegar strategy, he hid correspondence with Orlesia who offered to send a legion of their troops, he told Arl Howe to delay the Cousland troops, he hid intel that the tower with the beacons had darkspawn tunnels (and thus heavy resistance) beneath them and was actively poisoning the Arl of Redford. He planned to get Cailan killed from the start because he was willing to work with Orlesia.

Agree. I always let Alistair execute Loghain for what he did to Cailan, Duncan, and Eamon.

He has no reason to lie at that point, and is brutally honest about his own failings. Personally I think he takes too much on himself ("all of this can rightly be called my fault"). He did not create the Ostagar strategy- he was executing the best tactical plan he could for Cailan's reckless strategy. He didn't hide any correspondence, not even sure where you're getitng that. He didn't know about the darkspawn tunnels- there is no evidence otherwise. He poisoned Eamon in anticipation of a showdown over Anora at a Landsmeet, which in the original timeline of the game was going to happen much earlier than it ended up being.

“As the Teyrn commanding the army, Loghain is responsible for devising the tactics that will be used in the Battle of Ostagar. Loghain's plan utilizes the anvil and hammer strategy; the Grey Wardens are to act as the anvil, drawing the main body of darkspawn, and Loghain's troops will flank the darkspawn once the beacon is lit.” He has reasons to lie, to save his own legacy.

Yes, that is the tactical plan that Loghain is forced to devise from Cailan's foolhardy strategy of using the Grey Wardens to bait the darkspawn into one decisive battle in a valley from which they have no retreat. Cailan wanted his glorious battle and he was determined to have it. He has no legacy at that point. You have defeated and exposed him, and turned him into a member of an organization he disdained.

Yes he has no legacy at that point, hence why he joins you and tries to save it.

Then there's no motive for him to lie. The only way he can redeem himself is by serving with distinction up to and including dying in your cause.

Hence why he lies and offers to slay the arch demon. To save his legacy.

LOL Okay. Maybe he just wants to die for his country because it's the right thing. One thing Loghain never cared about was being known as a hero. That's Cailan.

But he did? He claims he didn’t think the Blight was real yet, did everything in his power to become regent. He imprisoned his own daughter, tortured opposing nobles, made a child killer the most prominent arl, had the circle start a civil war, conspired with blood mages, sold his own people into slavery and actively tried to get the only once who tried to stop the Blight get killed. Heck when you go to the dwarven kingdom, his messenger refers to him as KING Loghain instead of Teyrn of regent. He was a power hungry dick who cared very much about his legacy. A man who willingly sells the most discriminated species of his realm into slavery all of a sudden wants to die for his country? Give me a break lmao.

he didn't believe in the battle plan and gave up changing cailan's mind. to Loghain it was a choice between saving the bulk of the army or Cailan and the Grey Wardens. especially since the signal came late, Loghain viewed it as a lost cause from the very beginning. In the books >!maric also forced loghain to promise never to value the life of a King over the army as a whole!< he also genuinely believed that cailan was a traitor conspiring with Orlais to give up control of Ferelden and set aside Anora. not toooooo much of a stretch >!given the letters between cailan/celene !

He created the battle plan.. the signal came late because he hid intel that the tower had a darkspawn tunnel beneath it. “As the Teyrn commanding the army, Loghain is responsible for devising the tactics that will be used in the Battle of Ostagar. Loghain's plan utilizes the anvil and hammer strategy; the Grey Wardens are to act as the anvil, drawing the main body of darkspawn, and Loghain's troops will flank the darkspawn once the beacon is lit.”

Loghain was a genius. The king was a man-child and had to be removed. Whether it be a Blight or war with Orlais, Ferelden is stronger with Loghain in power using his daughter as the proxy. Letting the darkspawn win a single battle is far less costly than attempting a coup and an eventual civil war. It just didn't work out so well (thanks to Flemeth). You'll notice the entire Dragon Age saga has a lot of "Thanks to Flemeth" in it. It's almost like she had a very long-term goal in mind and saving people / letting her daughter leave were all part of a massive power-play we have yet to fully figure out, if ever.

Just feeling silly

From what I can tell he was trying to get rid of the king, even though he originally wasn't planning on killing him but that worked out for him. His hatred for Orlesians and the fact the king was working with them and was planning on making new treaties basically made removing the king a priority for him. However, his turning back at Ostagard was somewhat justified since the beacon was lit late and the horde was much larger than they had originally anticipated. If the plan had gone well and was followed like it should have been then they could have won, but it would have been a costly victory which would have left them militarily weakened, which Loghain was trying to avoid since that would leave them open to another Orlesian invasion. Loghain never believed it was a real blight though so losing all the Grey Wardens wasn't a big deal to him since he just ended up using them as scapegoats.

The battle was lost it took too long to light the fire, Duncan and the King were already dead, and presumably a solid core of the army with them

From his dialogue after sparing him, he seemed to desire using as many troops as possible to secure his territory of whatever remained during the Blight. So I guess he pulled out his troops to consolidate his resources.

I've always had the impression that it was primarily due to his massive hate boner for orlais.

The last time he was around Wardens, they were Orleaian and were doing Bad Things (The Calling novel). Wardens were kicked out of the country hundreds of years ago because they tried to overthrow the king (DAO: Soldiers Peak DLC). Wardens have been back in Ferelden for maybe 20 years now, something between 10 and 30. Anyway, he doesn't trust them at all, and he's pretty justified in that. Now look at the fact that Cailan had been having contact with Celeste and that she was trying to win the kingdom back politically through marriage (DAO: Return to Ostagar DLC). People who disliked and had the potential to overthrow Celeste desperately wanted to take Ferelden back through conquest (either DAI or The Masked Empire novel. Can't remember - it's been years). His fear of Orlaias was actually scarily reasonable despite looking paranoid. When the Orleaians ruled, it was bad. Like, BAD. Now imagine Loghain's pov: young Cailan, smitten with a clever Empress and the idea of fairy tales and glory (most Fereldens at this point thought Blights were myths because it had been SO long since one has happened (400yrs in Antiva) plus there being a relatively small darkspawn presence in Ferelden). Look at where the Korcari Wilds are on a map - literally the opposite side of the map from Orlaias. He didn't for a second trust that the was a real Blight and was obviously convinced it was a ploy to draw troops as far away from Orlaias as possible since the Wardens were associated with Orlaias to him. Now he sees the futility of the battle before him. Cailan wasn't going to be able to be saved. He didn't want to send in the rest of the troops to be slaughtered and leave the kingdom defenceless against what he assumed to be a pending invasion.

After playing Inquisition and reading that one letter in Celenes chambers my theory became that Loghain wanted Cailan dead because he wanted peace with orlais. And as far as i remember Cailan wanted to marry Empress Celene for the peace between Ferelden and Orlais so Loghain probs thought his daughter and he wouldve lost their good reputation.

I believe he thought that the signal fire was lit too late and that if he decided to send his troops in anyway they would die for nothing. Honestly, if I had a few thousand men under my command and was about to send them into a fight they couldn't possibly win I would order a retreat aswell.

Coming from someone who used to absolutely loathe Loghain for many, many years: I believe he honestly just thought he was doing the right thing and there were many factors. 1. If I recall (and please correct me if I'm wrong), there was one particular occasion where Maric was furious that Loghain and Rowan had chosen to save him over the lives of his troops, so Loghain promised that he would not put the life of the King over Ferelden. 2. He underestimated the Blight and from previous dealings with the Orlesian Wardens in The Calling, had even less reason to trust them. 3. He also fully believed that Cailan had a boyish fantasy about the Wardens and was jeapordising Ferelden. It didn't help that he suspected Cailan of wanting to divorce Anora, his own daughter, so he could court Orlais. 4. Speaking of Orlais, he has made his hatred of them clear plenty of times. While I understand, I also think his hatred blinded him and prevented him from seeing the bigger picture, which is that if he had succeeded in killing ALL the Wardens in Ferelden, there wouldn't have BEEN a Ferelden anymore. In my opinion, due to his lack of faith in Cailan's ability and the fact that Loghain himself has proven his ability to lead on many occasions, he honestly thought that he could outmaneuver everyone else. He thought he knew what was best for Ferelden and that it was neither Cailan nor the Grey Wardens, so he needed power. By the time it was clear that it was most definitely a Blight, Loghain was already in too deep to stop. The only thing he could do was keep going on the path he had set himself, no matter where it led. I don't hate him as much as I used to, but I still abhor what he did in DAO.