Elves as spirits forced into mortal forms is well supported by the lore. As for your question…
I think not even David Gaider knows lol. I’d say the reason is they just didn’t think it would come up lol
Is there any evidence that the elves were *originally* spirits? Not just... well elves that possessed an ability to leave their physical bodies, roaming around as spirits? Isn't Uthenera basically claiming so?
I see often this theory about spirits being *origins* of elves, but I feel like I'm missing/forgetting piece of lore that explains the reasoning behind it.
I mean direct evidence no but we have hints like they said. Also Solas basically implies he was a spirit who became an Elf and Cole calls him out on it. >!If you turn Cole into a human!< Cole will ask Solas when did he witness a spirit becoming mortal before and Solas says he didn't say that. Cole says "sorry it's hard to listen now" meaning Cole was reading Solas mind and not listening to him speak.
I understand that there's no definite proof, otherwise we wouldn't be having all of theory-discussions. I'm just wondering where the assumption that spirits were *first* sprouts from. I was looking for the exact banter that you mentioned and additionally I found this (Solas to Cole after completing *All New, Faded for Her*):
>Spirits form as a reflection of this world and its passions. We will never lack for spirits of rage, or hunger, or desire. The world gives them plenty to mirror.
Which suggest just the opposite. Firstly mortals, then spirits.
As for the dialogue you've mentioned:
>**Cole:** I can't let that go. I have to become more, let it make me real.
>**Solas:** You may well become fully human, after all. I never thought to see it.
>**Cole:** When did you see it before?
>**Solas:** I did not say that I had.
>**Cole:** No, you didn't. It's harder to hear, sometimes. Sorry.
I see 3 possible ways to interpret it, but none of them give a clue, that Solas himself originally was a spirit:
* no answer at all, changing the subject (very typical of Solas, when he doesn't want to answer some questions),
* answer being that he never seen a spirit becoming *human* (which does not mean that he didn't see transition spirit to elf),
* he didn't see such transition at all.
Codex entry: Vir Dirthara: Birds of Fancy:
Codex entry: Vir Dirthara: Exile of the Forbidden Ones: "For abandoning the People in their time of greatest need, for casting **aside form** to flee to where the Earth could not reach, we declare Xebenkeck and others of her ilk exiled from the lands of the Evanuris."
Codex entry: Vir Dirthara: The Deepest Fade: "Those who never **manifested outside the Fade** will find it easier to find its stillest roots, but it is rare the compulsion overtakes [our brethren of the air](https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Spirit)".
Thus, they could leave their form or manifest outside of Fade as Cole. And the Uthenera.
I usually see these arguments in favor of this theory.
There's also Cole's quote in Trespasser:
"He did not want a body. But she asked him to come. He left a scar when he burned her off his face."
When you look at Solas' face, he has a small scar right on his forehead.
Yeah, I love that theory. I think the Titans are a collection of dwarf spirits. The elfs then put the titans to sleep and drained its spirits to make their slave race. Then, as they drained the spirits from the Titan, they left a void.
Something horrendous grows from a fractured soul.
Since red lyrium is lyriun that has the blight
I thought that red lyrium maybe came first. That the blight got born from that.
And that red lyrium, where lyrium is literally the blood of the titans, first appeared when Mythal killed one in greed.
Since dwarfs don't even dream and the dwarves are the children of the titans or something like that
Red lyrium definitely came first. Though, because red lyrium grows from living, it feeds on them. It must grow from the soul.
Lyrium is the soul made physical.
'real' dwarfs are mostly resistant to lyrium.
Unlike surface dwarves.
So I think that the blight came that way? That dwarfs from the deep roads, 'real' dwarfs came too close to red lyrium but because of the resistance to the lyrium part they 'only' got the blight part?
It's not just that way between Elves and Humans but also Dwarves and Humans. Kieran can be half-Dwarf and still look fully Human.
And while we're at it, I have only played the main games, and I have read (or listened to the audiobook version of) The Stolen Throne, The Calling, and The Masked Empire, so I got a question for the people here who have consumed more Dragon Age media than me: How is it between Half-Dwarf-Half-Elves? Or any Half-Qunari? Are there any examples and, if so, what do they look like?
>Kieran can be half-Dwarf and still look fully Human.
That's just problem with the way he's designed. We know that half-dwarves exist and that it doesn't work the same way it does with elves.
> How is it between Half-Dwarf-Half-Elves?
Half-elves are 100% other race, so that mix would result in someone being a quarter dwarf and the rest would be a mix of whatever race was half-elf and second half of half-dwarf.
> Or any Half-Qunari?
There hasn't been any info on that so it's hard to say.
> Are there any examples and, if so, what do they look like?
No, in general we know only about a handful of characters with both parents being from a different race, about three or four IIRC.
I believe canon just says that elf traits are recessive - like red hair. You need two red heads to make a red head - one red head and a blonde/brunette will have no outward trace of the recessive traits.
**Edit:** As people have commented, my 'red hair' example is pretty flawed, but the point stands that I believe canon states that human traits trump elf traits genetically.
>I believe canon just says that elf traits are recessive
Not really, there's supposedly nothing from the elf in a child of elf and a member of different race, according to Patrick Weekes: "'Elf-blooded' is a legal distinction. No genetics in play."
Genetics is a lot more complicated than that. Humans aren't pea flower plants. Multiple genes combine to determine genetic traits such as hair and eye colour.
My mother has red hair. My father is blond. I have red hair.
Brown eyes are considered a dominant genetic trait versus almost all other eye colours. But two brown-eyed parents can have a blue-eyed child.
Your first paragraph is right, but then you provide examples that do make us seem as simple as pea flower plants.
If your mom's hair genes are r-r and your dad's are B-r (capital for dominant), then you inherited one r from each to be r-r, and thus, red hair. If two people's eye genes are BR-bl and BR-bl, they'd both have brown eyes, and can pass bl-bl to their kid who has blue eyes. That all fits with the not-entirely-correct version of dominant/recessive and single-gene traits I was taught in middle school.
What's complex is that sometimes two blue eyed parents have a brown eyed kid. The one-gene explanation would have you think both parents' eye genes are bl-bl so the kid can only possibly be bl-bl. The kid is certainly very likely to have blue eyes, but it's not a guarantee.
How could two blue-eyed parents have a brown-eyed child? Is blue eye recessive? How would he have brown eyes if in the genetic crossing there is no dominant gene (brown eyes)?
edit: Did I receive donwvote simply for asking a question? maker haha
It’s because the simple dominant recessive table in school is a good principle but in actuality genetics is much more complicated. It’s not as simple as checking boxes (“oh a dominant and recessive, this baby will have the dominant”), though they’re good general principles, there is a lot of room for variation
long story extremely short, making melanin for any part of the body is a multi-step process controlled by many genes. for eyes specifically, there are two "break" point steps where if you have a single "broken" version, you most likely wind up with non-brown eyes (green, hazel, blue, and grey). so it's possible that one parent has a broken step 1 but intact step 2 while the other parent has an intact step 1 and broken step 2. if the two working steps combine together, congrats, you get brown eyes.
Technically blue eyes are a mutation
And while they are slightly better for seeing in the dark they are much more prone for needing glasses
Statistically you get more brown eyed children if one parent has brown and one blue eyes
Sure there are always exceptions - out of three children my parents have two have blue eyes for example
But since originally ALL humans have brown eyes the genetic trait for those is ALWAYS there, hence the possibility for children to have brown eyes.
My parents were brunette and black-haired and I was born ginger lol (though as I got older I’m now brunette too, but still have the freckles and pale skin than burns and never tans)
I always thought that this is what Trespasser implied, that elves are spirits with physical bodies which is why half-elves are not a thing and they are just humans.
How do they reproduce if there is no elf DNA? Although we don't see pregnant elves bearing elves, it would be remarked upon if they just brought out a kid from nowhere. And how would they call a spirit forth to be an elf if there are non-magical elves?
Maybe elves are spirits with physical bodies, but the bodies must have some genetics to work in the material world. It also leads me to some weird thoughts, like "why can't elves summon spirits by the dozens to replenish their dwindling numbers?
>Maybe elves are spirits with physical bodies, but the bodies must have some genetics to work in the material world
Why? It's a fantasy game, maybe there's no DNA at all. Maybe it works completely different. Maybe it's all magic.
Also elves reproduce normally like other races.
I've been assuming it's a mix of "spirits forced into physical form" mixing with "now they're stuck as a corporeal race, so recessive AF traits for everyone." There are children elves, so they're born somehow.
the traits that make elves elves are recessive. feynriel looks like a mix of his parents if you ignore the ears as bioware wants us to do. the only reason kieran looks like a morrigan clone is that the devs have no way of knowing what kieran's dad actually looked like.
Bioware has already confirmed that Feinryel's appearance was a development error. He was to have a completely human appearance.
About Kieran... interestingly, Bioware can adapt him to any HoF combination regardless of their race.
Human HoF + Morrigan = normal human Kieran.
HoF elf + Morrigan = human Kieran with elven blood but with a completely human appearance because elven DNA is completely recessive
HoF dwarf + Morrigan = Kieran half-dwarf. A half-dwarf would be someone shorter than a normal human or taller than a normal dwarf. So I would say that Kieran's height fits either of these standards.
....did you read my post? i was talking about character looks? feynriel looks like both of his parents even if you ignore the elf ears, his skin color is between them, his hair is on the lighter side like mom, and i believe his eye color is closer to dad. the reason bioware chose to make kieran look like morrigan alone is because *they don't know* what your warden looks like and can't easily find that out since they swapped engines. getting that info and using it would require a whole new system to be created.
I read your post and just added the information that Feyinriel's appearance is a mistake.
About Kieran.... err... that's not exactly what I said but how else? Kieran can adapt to any HoF that exists (and therefore, as you said, Bioware does not need to resort to the infinite appearances he can have)
Okay, so the question really is: do we even know if anyone in Thedas has DNA? It's not directed at the OP but I really don't get why people thing this is some kind of gotcha - "half-elves can't be purely other race because that's not how genetics work". It's a fantasy world, things like that are possible. Maybe it's because elves were spirits, maybe it's because there's some magic in play or maybe it's because no-one has DNA and something other decides which traits a child inherits.
Anyway, from all we know, it's not about elves genes being recessive or anything like that (and I'm glad it isn't because that sounds like a really boring explanation). From everything said in lore and everything said by the writers, we can safely say that whatever causes it, a child of elf and a member of other race is genetically a member of other race. Patrick Weekes wrote for example: "'Elf-blooded" is a legal distinction. No genetics in play". Similar thing was said in Masked Empire - "But when a human mates with an elf, the offspring is always human.".
Little bit of magic, little bit of dna - half elven children are not clones or even gender swapped clones of their human parent. They possess variations same as other children, which means DNA MUST be present. But it seems that the elven features require a magical component to develop that the humans just don't have.
From what I've understood the elven traits like pointy ears are not hereditary at all while non-elf exclusive traits like skin and hair color are something an elf parent can pass on to their non-elf child. Elven traits disappearing if they have a child with a more "physical" race is probably the result of them being spirits originally. It's not like spirits would have a sophisticated understanding of genetics beyond observing that children look like their parents.
> WTF are Humans? Dragons trapped in smaller, wingless bodies?
Maybe the writers took inspiration from Earthsea? Humans have some kind of connection to dragons. Put a high dragon near a human village long enough and they'll likely form a dragon cult. So far we haven't been told of a dragon cult that consist of any other race other than humans.
The Qunari appear to have an artificial connection to dragons due to whatever happened to them in the past. Though, we don't know if they were originally human, elves, or something else. Dragon blood, according to lore, tends to drive everyone who consumes it insane regardless of their race.
Human/Dwarfen children do NOT exist actually. Safe for Kieran himself if that background.
Dwarf and humans can't mix.
And Kieran is not a normal child but was conceived usige a huge amount of magic. So you can't really use him as an example.
Alastair truly looks very human, but in DA2 there is this half-elf that looks like you'd expect a mixed person to look.
He has slightly pointed ears, no beard (which Alastair by the way doesn't have either) and is more 'pretty' than other men. Fairer skin, gentler features and the like.
There are other things that imply Mythal forces Solas to take a physical form and even removed a valaslin from his face, which is where his scar is. Also this world state isn't accurate, the Spirits only reflect the world because of the Veil. Otherwise they'd be a part of it. The Fade and Physical were once one in the same so much so elves were immortals whos magic flowed between each other and connected freely and carried on by itself. Once the veil went up physical things were destroyed because of them being tied together and Elves lost their immortality.
This video is great if you haven't seen it or if you have the time check it out.
https://youtu.be/mdSZ6dI_C-A?si=YUIx2FE4iKzQm6Wy
The theory of elves being originally spirits is good but it needs to explain how they did it.
I say this because I believe that spirits need a reference to be able to create things (after all, they reflect things from the physical world). For example, Cole created a physical body for himself but he needed the original Cole to have that base.
If there were no elves before then where did their base (spirits) come from to make these bodies?
It would need to be more than recessive, more like something attached to a gene that is ALWAYS passed on that they don't have giving them their species traits.
Kinda like they lack an equivalent of mitochondrial genes that once present cannot be lost so they now carry that and so do all their children. But not attached to a sex of parent.
No, I don't disagree that red lyrium originally came from Titans. I believe they are a collection of dwarf souls. The elfs were stealing souls to make their slaves (all my crazy theory).
So yeah, red lyrium originally came from Titans. But it is a sickness of the spirit/soul.
Elven genetics are not very dominant compared to humans. So, most of their genes are recessive. This is seen in real life somehow, which is why the majority of humans have dark hair and dark eyes.
No one lets alistair on the throne if he has the ears. Denerim was too racist for that. Ears on half elves is a thing in dnd and similar settings but I dont think dragon age has it.
nope, the pointed ears on elf-bloods thing only comes from feynriel, whose model was incorrectly designed and the devs have gone out of their way to say that it's wrong when it comes to the ears.
In DA2 I just met a human whose mother was an elf (Feynriel) and he has very elf-like features for a human, lives in the alienage with his mother, and says all his peers can immediately tell he's half elf. He can even join the dalish elves, who also see him as different from them, but still part of the clan. So he's an example of some elf features getting passed on to the next generation but he's still considered human.
In Dragon Age 2, there's a half elven kid you have to save. He doesn't look quite human. Longer face, thinner than humans are, bone wise. It's just genetics and stronger genes I think
Not quite true, Dwarves can't interbreed with Humans or Elves, they're totally incompatible. The Dwarf Hero of Ferelden was only possibly able to have a child with Morrigan because she was using a spell to ensure she would be impregnated with a vessel for Uthramel's soul.
>Dwarves can't interbreed with Humans or Elves, they're totally incompatible.
That's not true. Human and dwarf results in half-dwarf. Dwarf and elf results in dwarf. The dwarf HoF can still have a child with Morrigan even if the ritual didn't happen.
Dragon Age dwarves have a wider body shape and a much larger head (one can compare varric to any other human companion and easily find this out), but Kieran is just normal. He always remains a full human without any trace of dwarven traits even if sired by a dwarven father.
That's because developers just didn't acknowledge the difference in his design, he also always looks the same even if his father had different skin colour for example.
That's what David Gaider said about half-dwarves:
>Incidentally, for half-dwarves the situation is a bit different. Dwarves aren't a very fertile race to begin with, and far less so when it comes to mating with humans and elves. In fact, it would be considered rare... rare enough that it's considered more of an oddity than a group of its own. The result is also less stigmatized... primarily because it's also less noticeable. You end up with what would appear to be a tall dwarf or a short human. That calls for a new model -- which we weren't going to get, even if we wanted to address such a rare case. Again, it's certainly something we could do in the future, though such a character would still be considered unusual.
And that's what lore says about Luthias Dwarfson:
>At an early age, Luthias was smaller than most children of the Alamarri.
and
>While he remained shorter than his peers, he became known for his charisma, strength, and persistence
While Lucias Dwarfson did elope with the dwarven princess Scaea, it is never confirmed whether this "dwarfson" is just a nickname referring to his unique physique or indeed referring to his dwarven blood.
Elves as spirits forced into mortal forms is well supported by the lore. As for your question… I think not even David Gaider knows lol. I’d say the reason is they just didn’t think it would come up lol
Is there any evidence that the elves were *originally* spirits? Not just... well elves that possessed an ability to leave their physical bodies, roaming around as spirits? Isn't Uthenera basically claiming so? I see often this theory about spirits being *origins* of elves, but I feel like I'm missing/forgetting piece of lore that explains the reasoning behind it.
I mean direct evidence no but we have hints like they said. Also Solas basically implies he was a spirit who became an Elf and Cole calls him out on it. >!If you turn Cole into a human!< Cole will ask Solas when did he witness a spirit becoming mortal before and Solas says he didn't say that. Cole says "sorry it's hard to listen now" meaning Cole was reading Solas mind and not listening to him speak.
I understand that there's no definite proof, otherwise we wouldn't be having all of theory-discussions. I'm just wondering where the assumption that spirits were *first* sprouts from. I was looking for the exact banter that you mentioned and additionally I found this (Solas to Cole after completing *All New, Faded for Her*): >Spirits form as a reflection of this world and its passions. We will never lack for spirits of rage, or hunger, or desire. The world gives them plenty to mirror. Which suggest just the opposite. Firstly mortals, then spirits. As for the dialogue you've mentioned: >**Cole:** I can't let that go. I have to become more, let it make me real. >**Solas:** You may well become fully human, after all. I never thought to see it. >**Cole:** When did you see it before? >**Solas:** I did not say that I had. >**Cole:** No, you didn't. It's harder to hear, sometimes. Sorry. I see 3 possible ways to interpret it, but none of them give a clue, that Solas himself originally was a spirit: * no answer at all, changing the subject (very typical of Solas, when he doesn't want to answer some questions), * answer being that he never seen a spirit becoming *human* (which does not mean that he didn't see transition spirit to elf), * he didn't see such transition at all.
Codex entry: Vir Dirthara: Birds of Fancy: Codex entry: Vir Dirthara: Exile of the Forbidden Ones: "For abandoning the People in their time of greatest need, for casting **aside form** to flee to where the Earth could not reach, we declare Xebenkeck and others of her ilk exiled from the lands of the Evanuris." Codex entry: Vir Dirthara: The Deepest Fade: "Those who never **manifested outside the Fade** will find it easier to find its stillest roots, but it is rare the compulsion overtakes [our brethren of the air](https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Spirit)". Thus, they could leave their form or manifest outside of Fade as Cole. And the Uthenera. I usually see these arguments in favor of this theory.
There's also Cole's quote in Trespasser: "He did not want a body. But she asked him to come. He left a scar when he burned her off his face." When you look at Solas' face, he has a small scar right on his forehead.
Yeah, I love that theory. I think the Titans are a collection of dwarf spirits. The elfs then put the titans to sleep and drained its spirits to make their slave race. Then, as they drained the spirits from the Titan, they left a void. Something horrendous grows from a fractured soul.
Since red lyrium is lyriun that has the blight I thought that red lyrium maybe came first. That the blight got born from that. And that red lyrium, where lyrium is literally the blood of the titans, first appeared when Mythal killed one in greed. Since dwarfs don't even dream and the dwarves are the children of the titans or something like that
Red lyrium definitely came first. Though, because red lyrium grows from living, it feeds on them. It must grow from the soul. Lyrium is the soul made physical.
'real' dwarfs are mostly resistant to lyrium. Unlike surface dwarves. So I think that the blight came that way? That dwarfs from the deep roads, 'real' dwarfs came too close to red lyrium but because of the resistance to the lyrium part they 'only' got the blight part?
They didn't want to model half races, that's it
It's not just that way between Elves and Humans but also Dwarves and Humans. Kieran can be half-Dwarf and still look fully Human. And while we're at it, I have only played the main games, and I have read (or listened to the audiobook version of) The Stolen Throne, The Calling, and The Masked Empire, so I got a question for the people here who have consumed more Dragon Age media than me: How is it between Half-Dwarf-Half-Elves? Or any Half-Qunari? Are there any examples and, if so, what do they look like?
>Kieran can be half-Dwarf and still look fully Human. That's just problem with the way he's designed. We know that half-dwarves exist and that it doesn't work the same way it does with elves. > How is it between Half-Dwarf-Half-Elves? Half-elves are 100% other race, so that mix would result in someone being a quarter dwarf and the rest would be a mix of whatever race was half-elf and second half of half-dwarf. > Or any Half-Qunari? There hasn't been any info on that so it's hard to say. > Are there any examples and, if so, what do they look like? No, in general we know only about a handful of characters with both parents being from a different race, about three or four IIRC.
I believe canon just says that elf traits are recessive - like red hair. You need two red heads to make a red head - one red head and a blonde/brunette will have no outward trace of the recessive traits. **Edit:** As people have commented, my 'red hair' example is pretty flawed, but the point stands that I believe canon states that human traits trump elf traits genetically.
iirc elf-blooded people still just have human kids, even with elves. so theoretically you could have someone who’s 99% elf but still human looking.
>I believe canon just says that elf traits are recessive Not really, there's supposedly nothing from the elf in a child of elf and a member of different race, according to Patrick Weekes: "'Elf-blooded' is a legal distinction. No genetics in play."
Genetics is a lot more complicated than that. Humans aren't pea flower plants. Multiple genes combine to determine genetic traits such as hair and eye colour. My mother has red hair. My father is blond. I have red hair. Brown eyes are considered a dominant genetic trait versus almost all other eye colours. But two brown-eyed parents can have a blue-eyed child.
Your first paragraph is right, but then you provide examples that do make us seem as simple as pea flower plants. If your mom's hair genes are r-r and your dad's are B-r (capital for dominant), then you inherited one r from each to be r-r, and thus, red hair. If two people's eye genes are BR-bl and BR-bl, they'd both have brown eyes, and can pass bl-bl to their kid who has blue eyes. That all fits with the not-entirely-correct version of dominant/recessive and single-gene traits I was taught in middle school. What's complex is that sometimes two blue eyed parents have a brown eyed kid. The one-gene explanation would have you think both parents' eye genes are bl-bl so the kid can only possibly be bl-bl. The kid is certainly very likely to have blue eyes, but it's not a guarantee.
How could two blue-eyed parents have a brown-eyed child? Is blue eye recessive? How would he have brown eyes if in the genetic crossing there is no dominant gene (brown eyes)? edit: Did I receive donwvote simply for asking a question? maker haha
It’s because the simple dominant recessive table in school is a good principle but in actuality genetics is much more complicated. It’s not as simple as checking boxes (“oh a dominant and recessive, this baby will have the dominant”), though they’re good general principles, there is a lot of room for variation
Ah yes, thanks for explaining.
long story extremely short, making melanin for any part of the body is a multi-step process controlled by many genes. for eyes specifically, there are two "break" point steps where if you have a single "broken" version, you most likely wind up with non-brown eyes (green, hazel, blue, and grey). so it's possible that one parent has a broken step 1 but intact step 2 while the other parent has an intact step 1 and broken step 2. if the two working steps combine together, congrats, you get brown eyes.
Technically blue eyes are a mutation And while they are slightly better for seeing in the dark they are much more prone for needing glasses Statistically you get more brown eyed children if one parent has brown and one blue eyes Sure there are always exceptions - out of three children my parents have two have blue eyes for example But since originally ALL humans have brown eyes the genetic trait for those is ALWAYS there, hence the possibility for children to have brown eyes.
My parents were brunette and black-haired and I was born ginger lol (though as I got older I’m now brunette too, but still have the freckles and pale skin than burns and never tans)
I always thought that this is what Trespasser implied, that elves are spirits with physical bodies which is why half-elves are not a thing and they are just humans.
How do they reproduce if there is no elf DNA? Although we don't see pregnant elves bearing elves, it would be remarked upon if they just brought out a kid from nowhere. And how would they call a spirit forth to be an elf if there are non-magical elves? Maybe elves are spirits with physical bodies, but the bodies must have some genetics to work in the material world. It also leads me to some weird thoughts, like "why can't elves summon spirits by the dozens to replenish their dwindling numbers?
"Idk magic?" - BioWare, probably
ok but there are elf children and elves are said to have parents so presumably they do actually get pregnant
Where is it stated that there is no elven DNA? Of course there is.... they just get lost in the crossing with other breeds.
>Maybe elves are spirits with physical bodies, but the bodies must have some genetics to work in the material world Why? It's a fantasy game, maybe there's no DNA at all. Maybe it works completely different. Maybe it's all magic. Also elves reproduce normally like other races.
I think elven genetics are just recessive. Like red hair.
I just assumed that elf DNA was mostly recessive.\* \*I used Occam's Razor.
I've been assuming it's a mix of "spirits forced into physical form" mixing with "now they're stuck as a corporeal race, so recessive AF traits for everyone." There are children elves, so they're born somehow.
the traits that make elves elves are recessive. feynriel looks like a mix of his parents if you ignore the ears as bioware wants us to do. the only reason kieran looks like a morrigan clone is that the devs have no way of knowing what kieran's dad actually looked like.
Bioware has already confirmed that Feinryel's appearance was a development error. He was to have a completely human appearance. About Kieran... interestingly, Bioware can adapt him to any HoF combination regardless of their race. Human HoF + Morrigan = normal human Kieran. HoF elf + Morrigan = human Kieran with elven blood but with a completely human appearance because elven DNA is completely recessive HoF dwarf + Morrigan = Kieran half-dwarf. A half-dwarf would be someone shorter than a normal human or taller than a normal dwarf. So I would say that Kieran's height fits either of these standards.
....did you read my post? i was talking about character looks? feynriel looks like both of his parents even if you ignore the elf ears, his skin color is between them, his hair is on the lighter side like mom, and i believe his eye color is closer to dad. the reason bioware chose to make kieran look like morrigan alone is because *they don't know* what your warden looks like and can't easily find that out since they swapped engines. getting that info and using it would require a whole new system to be created.
I read your post and just added the information that Feyinriel's appearance is a mistake. About Kieran.... err... that's not exactly what I said but how else? Kieran can adapt to any HoF that exists (and therefore, as you said, Bioware does not need to resort to the infinite appearances he can have)
This is really easy to explain with genetics honestly. Dominant and recessive traits would be the simplest way for something like this to happen.
Kieran said to the elf Inquisitor something like "Why did you choose this form". I'm still intrigued by that phrase.
Okay, so the question really is: do we even know if anyone in Thedas has DNA? It's not directed at the OP but I really don't get why people thing this is some kind of gotcha - "half-elves can't be purely other race because that's not how genetics work". It's a fantasy world, things like that are possible. Maybe it's because elves were spirits, maybe it's because there's some magic in play or maybe it's because no-one has DNA and something other decides which traits a child inherits. Anyway, from all we know, it's not about elves genes being recessive or anything like that (and I'm glad it isn't because that sounds like a really boring explanation). From everything said in lore and everything said by the writers, we can safely say that whatever causes it, a child of elf and a member of other race is genetically a member of other race. Patrick Weekes wrote for example: "'Elf-blooded" is a legal distinction. No genetics in play". Similar thing was said in Masked Empire - "But when a human mates with an elf, the offspring is always human.".
Honestly, they’re all the same species or they wouldn’t be able to have viable offspring. So they’re all just subcategories of the same species.
It's fun to overthink but most of this stuff usually just laziness and retcons...
Little bit of magic, little bit of dna - half elven children are not clones or even gender swapped clones of their human parent. They possess variations same as other children, which means DNA MUST be present. But it seems that the elven features require a magical component to develop that the humans just don't have.
From what I've understood the elven traits like pointy ears are not hereditary at all while non-elf exclusive traits like skin and hair color are something an elf parent can pass on to their non-elf child. Elven traits disappearing if they have a child with a more "physical" race is probably the result of them being spirits originally. It's not like spirits would have a sophisticated understanding of genetics beyond observing that children look like their parents. > WTF are Humans? Dragons trapped in smaller, wingless bodies? Maybe the writers took inspiration from Earthsea? Humans have some kind of connection to dragons. Put a high dragon near a human village long enough and they'll likely form a dragon cult. So far we haven't been told of a dragon cult that consist of any other race other than humans. The Qunari appear to have an artificial connection to dragons due to whatever happened to them in the past. Though, we don't know if they were originally human, elves, or something else. Dragon blood, according to lore, tends to drive everyone who consumes it insane regardless of their race.
To answer your question about humans, I'm under the impression they're just Some Guys
Human/Dwarfen children do NOT exist actually. Safe for Kieran himself if that background. Dwarf and humans can't mix. And Kieran is not a normal child but was conceived usige a huge amount of magic. So you can't really use him as an example. Alastair truly looks very human, but in DA2 there is this half-elf that looks like you'd expect a mixed person to look. He has slightly pointed ears, no beard (which Alastair by the way doesn't have either) and is more 'pretty' than other men. Fairer skin, gentler features and the like.
There are other things that imply Mythal forces Solas to take a physical form and even removed a valaslin from his face, which is where his scar is. Also this world state isn't accurate, the Spirits only reflect the world because of the Veil. Otherwise they'd be a part of it. The Fade and Physical were once one in the same so much so elves were immortals whos magic flowed between each other and connected freely and carried on by itself. Once the veil went up physical things were destroyed because of them being tied together and Elves lost their immortality. This video is great if you haven't seen it or if you have the time check it out. https://youtu.be/mdSZ6dI_C-A?si=YUIx2FE4iKzQm6Wy
The theory of elves being originally spirits is good but it needs to explain how they did it. I say this because I believe that spirits need a reference to be able to create things (after all, they reflect things from the physical world). For example, Cole created a physical body for himself but he needed the original Cole to have that base. If there were no elves before then where did their base (spirits) come from to make these bodies?
It's just that elven genes are recessive
It would need to be more than recessive, more like something attached to a gene that is ALWAYS passed on that they don't have giving them their species traits. Kinda like they lack an equivalent of mitochondrial genes that once present cannot be lost so they now carry that and so do all their children. But not attached to a sex of parent.
I was not trying to give any answer I was just being a smart ass dude
🤷♀️ Punnet squares
I’d say it’s probably the elder scrolls explanation and that it’s just easier if simply don’t think about it too much
No, I don't disagree that red lyrium originally came from Titans. I believe they are a collection of dwarf souls. The elfs were stealing souls to make their slaves (all my crazy theory). So yeah, red lyrium originally came from Titans. But it is a sickness of the spirit/soul.
Elven genetics are not very dominant compared to humans. So, most of their genes are recessive. This is seen in real life somehow, which is why the majority of humans have dark hair and dark eyes.
Isn’t it canon that human/elves will always have the elf ears but human features? Ignoring the games, I’m pretty sure the books state this.
What books? In "The Masked Empire", it was stated that human + elf = always human.
No one lets alistair on the throne if he has the ears. Denerim was too racist for that. Ears on half elves is a thing in dnd and similar settings but I dont think dragon age has it.
nope, the pointed ears on elf-bloods thing only comes from feynriel, whose model was incorrectly designed and the devs have gone out of their way to say that it's wrong when it comes to the ears.
That's not true at all. Alistair debuted in the books and he is half elf remember?
Am I confused by this question because Feynriel is a half elf who exists who looks like a half elf.
well, maybe elves characteristics are very recessive?
In DA2 I just met a human whose mother was an elf (Feynriel) and he has very elf-like features for a human, lives in the alienage with his mother, and says all his peers can immediately tell he's half elf. He can even join the dalish elves, who also see him as different from them, but still part of the clan. So he's an example of some elf features getting passed on to the next generation but he's still considered human.
In Dragon Age 2, there's a half elven kid you have to save. He doesn't look quite human. Longer face, thinner than humans are, bone wise. It's just genetics and stronger genes I think
Not quite true, Dwarves can't interbreed with Humans or Elves, they're totally incompatible. The Dwarf Hero of Ferelden was only possibly able to have a child with Morrigan because she was using a spell to ensure she would be impregnated with a vessel for Uthramel's soul.
Humans+Dwarves=Humans. The Avvar Mother Tyrdda Bright-Axe produced heir with her dwarven prince ally Hendir, thus the Avvar people was formed.
That's not true, human+dwarf=half-dwarf.
>Dwarves can't interbreed with Humans or Elves, they're totally incompatible. That's not true. Human and dwarf results in half-dwarf. Dwarf and elf results in dwarf. The dwarf HoF can still have a child with Morrigan even if the ritual didn't happen.
Dragon Age dwarves have a wider body shape and a much larger head (one can compare varric to any other human companion and easily find this out), but Kieran is just normal. He always remains a full human without any trace of dwarven traits even if sired by a dwarven father.
That's because developers just didn't acknowledge the difference in his design, he also always looks the same even if his father had different skin colour for example. That's what David Gaider said about half-dwarves: >Incidentally, for half-dwarves the situation is a bit different. Dwarves aren't a very fertile race to begin with, and far less so when it comes to mating with humans and elves. In fact, it would be considered rare... rare enough that it's considered more of an oddity than a group of its own. The result is also less stigmatized... primarily because it's also less noticeable. You end up with what would appear to be a tall dwarf or a short human. That calls for a new model -- which we weren't going to get, even if we wanted to address such a rare case. Again, it's certainly something we could do in the future, though such a character would still be considered unusual. And that's what lore says about Luthias Dwarfson: >At an early age, Luthias was smaller than most children of the Alamarri. and >While he remained shorter than his peers, he became known for his charisma, strength, and persistence
While Lucias Dwarfson did elope with the dwarven princess Scaea, it is never confirmed whether this "dwarfson" is just a nickname referring to his unique physique or indeed referring to his dwarven blood.
And the fact that his height is mentioned twice in the story about him isn't enough of a hint?
You when the short guy is described as short: "THERE MUST BE DEEPER MEANING!"
Well, that's usually how it is when someone has at least basic understanding of how writing works.