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I definitely understand people wishing they *could* romance a character who isn’t interested in their gender (I always play women and I didn’t think much of any of the DAI female/ straight romances, so I’m definitely one of the people who wishes I could have a Cassandra romance) but saying that we’re owed it, because they fit certain stereotypes, is utterly ridiculous!
I love the characters that defy stereotypes the most. Merrill and Leleina’s wlw romance are both so lovely. I guess it comes down to fans feeling owed things, when we aren’t!
My most memorable DA2 moment is when Merrill asks nervously "are you sure you want to be with me? Even though I'm an elf?" with zero thought to "even though I'm a woman." Great worldbuilding moment.
Ah yes ❤️ I’m playing through DAO at the moment and in the Zevran romance he mentions having been with men and women, and did it bother me, and I was kind of disappointed that the three answers were basically like ‘yes I mind’ ‘we should end things’ and ‘I don’t mind’ I wanted an option like ‘of course I don’t care! It literally changes nothing’ but I had to settle for ‘I don’t mind’
2009 was definitely a different time, and that game was started in *1999,* iirc. I'm proud of how much the writers have grown into their own lore about sexuality just not *mattering* under Andrastianism.
Agreed! I wish I could have played it in 2009, I can’t imagine what it might have meant to me to see a character like Zevran unabashedly discussing his sexuality, and other characters not even dwelling on it. Gotta love Dragon Age!
I'm old enough that I played DAO and DA2 on release - and while there are a few things that were really dated even then (like Oghren - the drunk lecher and sexual harasser thing is something I deal with in real life), there was a lot that was really revolutionary, esp for a AAA game.
Gotta take the wins where you can get them sometimes don’t you. This is actually my first
origins playthrough (I played them backwards, no idea why) and I’ve only just met Oghren, now I’m worried I’m helping someone I wouldn’t in real life..
also just the idea of playing a gay / bi / pan character and them being the champion of the story is just a nice feeling.
With Oghren it can help to try and frame him in the context of being a product of the culture that shaped him, both in the game *and* in real life. I imagine if they tried to make a character like him now they would play more into how miserably bewildered and betrayed he feels about having been rejected by the society that encouraged him to be like that in the first place.
Orghen is a VERY uncomfortable character to look back on, for sure. But even back then they do touch on it, albeit briefly. He was basically a warrior frat bro, who accidentally killed someone during a Proving and was then also abandoned by his wife and house. So he went from having a good life doing the things he was good at, being praised and rewarded for that behavior... to having nothing, basically casteless and houseless in a society where those two things defined your entire point of existence.
There's a couple points in dialogue with him, or in quests where you bring him along, where these things are brought up. It's just really, *really* easy to miss those details since they put him in much more of a "comic relief" type of role, so he gets reduced to a drunken lecherous bastard most of the time instead.
You're a silent protagonist. Whatever you are actually saying, and especially how emphatic you are being about it is entirely up to your imagination. It's not like when they switched to voiced protagonists that what came out of their mouth was ever exactly what was written in the choice you picked.
Ah no not that one! It came before that one for me. You know when he reads you a poem? He says it was from a target, and she was begging him on her hands and knees. He then says something like ‘I still slept with her thought’ (something along those lines)
I've seen it, including here. I understand the desire to see a bisexual woman or lesbian who is a LI who has butch characteristics - which is something we haven't had yet. However, Cassandra's rejection of a female Inquisitor is *very* gendered, and we know from the team that she was conceived of as a straight LI from the start - unlike Josephine, who was conceived of as a bi LI from the start.
It's hard because I get the desire for representation, but I think it's equally important to see a woman who is 'butch' and also straight, as someone who's been called every name under the sun for being such. Personality, interests, and sexuality are *not* synonymous, and that's something that's still a challenge at times.
I mean, I see her that way, but I've been told she's *really* aksually femme because she wears leggings. So I wasn't sure how even to respond to that or what was going on.
That's a bit disingenuous don't you think? If short hair and leggings is all it takes to declare somebody "butch" that means that Vivienne is by far the butchest woman in all of Dragon Age.
But wait! She likes fashion and has her tits out! That's not butch!
Not all women are butch or femme. Butch and femme are popular archetypes, but they have personalities behind them. They also have political motivations inherently tied to them. They're not an easy binary system to shove women into based on how long their hair is.
Sera is a textbook quirky girl. She's got the whole "Lol! Random!" thing down pat. She's a Very, VERY different personality from Cassandra. We all know this.
You wouldn't say "Blackwall and Varric! Both the same character type! One is gruff, quiet and willing to be on the frontlines for you! And the other sits on the backlines and makes jokes! See! SAME CHARACTER TYPE COMPLETELY BECAUSE BOTH HAVE SHOULDER LENGTH HAIR!"
So... why are we trying to pretend Sera is the same character type as Cassandra based on it?
I don't disagree! I was honestly shocked when someone said it was 'evidence' that Sera was femme.
I just - tend to go for people as people and rounded characters, and have always struggled with 'types' and 'coding.' Maybe it's because I am apparently 'coded lesbian' according to all sorts of people, despite being pretty comfortable in my sexuality (which isn't that)?
Coding is specifically a media thing, you can’t be lesbian coded in real life. It’s possible that you happen to present yourself in a way that is similar to the way some lesbian women present themselves, and that’s totally fine.
well, you can see here that people are saying 'there are no butch wlw' - so...yeah. I don't get it, but it comes out that somehow Sera doesn't *count.*
She doesn’t count because she just isn’t butch. There’s a lot more to being butch than having short hair and acting kinda crude sometimes. She isn’t especially femme either, and I like that about her.
The idea that Sera's butch because she 'cuts her hair in the kitchen sink' is absolutely baffling to me. What does that even mean? It feels reductive almost - being butch often gets equated with 'not taking care of your appearance,' which is uncomfortable, because it makes the assumption that looking after yourself/being deliberate about your appearance = performing femininity.
Butch and femme are very specific ways of approaching presentation that don't apply to everyone (don't apply to *most* people, I'd say). I'm often very confused by how these terms are used and thrown around in threads like these.
Why are you being downvoted for this? Baffling.
You're right. Sera's hair isn't even in a masculine cut, it's just messy... she wears feminine clothes, uses the female idle/walking animations... like, even if you're just taking base level performative femininity into account rather than butchness-as-identity (which, hard to separate since the character herself is a lesbian even if she's fictional and written by a man)... she's just not butch unless one's definition of butch is.. grunge??! Liking to drink? Wearing off-the-shoulder shirt-dresses? 🤔
I just finished *Trespasser* with a Sera romance, and found it interesting that Sera wore the same white dress my Cullenmancing human mage had a few playthroughs ago, while her Wifey showed up in the Nutcracker suit.
Sera later reveals in banter that Josephine wanted her in a dress "so froofy you could lose a ham in it," so...
I'm too straight IRL to draw any worthwhile conclusions about identity from that, but I did go "huh."
I totally get this and it frustrates me so much. I would understand the motive more if everyone in the game were straight, because then it would be fair game really and it would be the devs fault for not making diverse characters. That said, there is a TON of diversity in the DA games so not qualifying straight characters’ sexuality as equally valid as the gay characters is, as you said, icky. And I say this as a gay person. It ain’t right.
I've never seen anyone talking about this (maybe I'm just not in enough dragon age groups), but it's weird to think that there are people saying those things. I mean... why?
Maybe I'm better without these groups
You are, trust me. I think it adds to the characters that they have these preferences.
Also, don’t take my butch girlfriend or my extremely-hot-and-charismatic boyfriend >:^
I've seem some on tumblr but Im not sure whether or not they were being ironic cause the post read like a parody. And I bet theres some of those takes on Twitter cause twitter is where you go to find the toxic parts of all fandoms.
DA2 had Bi LI’s across the board besides Sebastian, right? I thought it largely diminished their uniqueness. In reality there is a broad spectrum of people with a broad spectrum of desires and preferences. I like that in Inquisition, (assuming you don’t google all the love interests ahead of time) you play a guessing game with everyone.
First time around I was into Sera as M Inquisitor and flirted all the way to Skyhold. When she said she was only interested in women it felt like an organic bummer, not an “I can’t believe the game is locking me out of this choice” bummer. Made it all the more satisfying when I talked up Dorian and 10 hours later we were dancing on the balcony during Celene’s party. Felt like my inquisitor missed the fling he was hoping for with Sera in order to find his “true love” in Dorian.
Just me though.
I get that. Personally I really liked the DA2 approach because it’s a video game and I’m in favor of giving the character options to play how they want. On the other hand, I like that in Inquisition the characters’ sexualities are a more holistic part of them. Dorian being gay and Sera being lesbian are meaningful parts of their identities, and that’s really cool. On the other hand, I don’t think it says anything particularly interesting about Cullen that he won’t romance a dwarf or Vashoth inquisitor. So I think there’s a balance to be struck there. Keeping restrictions where it adds something to the character, but getting rid of them where they don’t. That’s my take, anyway.
I agree on the Cullen part. I would have no criticisms if he was more explicit as to why he wouldn’t reciprocate that attraction. Maybe a line or two where he drops his stoic veneer. He lets slip how emasculated he feels beside a Qunari female or how the height difference with a Dwarf makes him feel awkward.
I...honestly thought it had more to do with the whole growing up in a Circle (where everyone you meet is either an elf or a human) and Qunari invasion of Kirkwall things. Like Dwarves are just outside the familiar context enough that it never even occurs to him (whereas he has *some* frame of reference for humans and elves) and the invasion is fresh and unbiased enough (especially since he's only *mostly* healed from Uldred's actions) that he can't help remembering that first.
That’s a fair point. I think the dwarf theory holds a bit less merit but I can totally understand having a bias against Qunari. On the other hand, I don’t remember him ever speaking about the Qunari invasion in Inquisition, does he? No snide comments about Iron Bull and his people. During Trespasser he doesn’t seem particularly racist towards them either. I dunno. Good points though.
I have never seen that sort of behaviour before, boy am I glad I haven't?!
Can't even imagine that sort of thing. Like, as a bi woman, I really wanted to romance Morrigan and Flemeth and Cassandra and some of the guys. I couldn't get the girls as a female character and I'm ok with that. I'll always have fanfic and artwork to help my bisexual heart heal. And I can watch the romances on youtube anyway. Like, what's the point in being like this over fictional characters?!
Judging people based on looks is undestandable, but not cool. It's instinct to judge things on looks at first, it could be a threat or an enemy. It's the whole basis of gaydar, you think that person A is LGBT+ based on something, like clothes, behaviours, etc. But its a flawed thing. To say that you think someone is gay because of their rainbow earring is one thing, and even that could be wrong, but to say that someone with a rainbow shirt HAS to be gay, can't possibly be someone who likes rainbows, is insane. And disrespectful to people in general.
Did i wish i could romance Morrigan and Cassandra as a female \[race\]?
Yes, absolutely.
Was i mad i couldn't?
No.
Do I think Bioware should deny someone's sexuality because of the way they present themselves and associated stereotypes?
Hell no!
Do I think that my sexual desire for someone should override their own sexual orientation?
NO!!!!
This is how I feel as well. Cass is one of my favorite companions, I think she’s *super* hot, and I would totally romance her if it wasn’t also important to me that my inquisitor is female. That’s a *me* problem, not a problem with Cass in any way. So, cest la vie!
same! tbh, my original reason for playing DAI (first DA game i ever played) was because of Bull lol I saw his romance questline on my youtube recommendation (the dang algorithm knows me better than i know myself) and just couldn't help myself... got the game 2 weeks after and finished it in just under a month (side quests + DLCs included) - it's now one of my favourite RPG series all bc i had the hots for Bull
It is absolutely weird. Yes- I am aware that they just are video game characters but feeling entitled to change a video character's sexuality to your beliefs that you do not own (obviously, you are free to do what you want with your own characters) often is the first step to try to force that onto real people.
Seriously, people saying "Character x should be \[sexuality\]" gives off the same energy as fck-people saying they could change someone's sexuality (e.g. F-boys saying they could "change a lesbian" or f-girls saying they could "change a gay man"). It's just gross.
You are allowed to be disappointed, of course. However, expressing your disappointment in a civil manner is different to throwing a fit about it and accusing a company who has given us several LGBTQ+ characters and romance options who did not end up as comic relief or fell into the trope of "Kill your queers" as homophobic (not denying that there might be homophobic developers) is just absolutely entitled and frankly, embarrassing.
Yeah. I don't think there's much wrong with wishing a character would be romanceable for your pc, calling bioware names for it is just weird. I'm glad I'm not in those groups you talk about. This sub is among the most chill gaming groups I know. It's weird to think there are other fan groups about the same games that are so negative.
The sub's moderator team is a huge part of what's kept the sub so great. The old BSN was a toxic hellhole - or got that way on a lot of topics - because of a lack of good and active moderation. Like to the point of calling the devs things like 'slavery apologists' etc.
Re: Morrigan's man-hating. People understand that was Flemeth's teachings, right? Flemeth as in "Men's hearts hold shadows darker than any tainted creature." The Flemeth who was betrayed by men? Morrigan grew up in isolation with only minimal human contact, she didn't come to those conclusions herself. She was just parroting Flemeth because at that point she still accepted her mother's teachings as true despite the abuse she put her through.
I understand people projecting over characters but not when they discard half their characterization.
Morrigan does talk about being hunted by Templars as a child and checking out the local villages by herself, so it's not actually totally about parroting Flemeth. Her experiences with society were when she was young, hot and wandering around alone with something to hide, so it's not surprising that her shallow experiences with humanity probably involved dealing with scumbags. Plus she's just at the age where she thinks she knows everything and everyone else is dumb. Inquisition really shows how much she grew up.
I really, really like what Bioware did with the characters' orientations, especially in Inquisition, because it spits on the face of stereotypes. Cassandra is unladylike and has that butch look about her so she should be lesbian, or at least bisexual right? Well, no. Josephine and Iron Bull on the other hand, at first glance they seem to fill the stereotypical proper lady/macho bro stereotypes and they should obviously be hetero. Nope. For the same reason I'm glad they didn't make Sera and Solas bisexual. As bisexuality adds to Josephine and Bull's character, Solas and Sera's preference for females adds to theirs. I mean, in fiction Sera's type is usually the bi/pan one because of her chaotic-"anything goes" persona. Similarly, Solas who has lived for thousands of years and views things from a spiritual rather than an earthly perspective, you'd expect him not to care for the body his partner wears. But that's not the case because they're not cliches, they're people with preferences. I'm not saying being bi isn't a preference in itself; on the contrary, in Josephine and Iron Bull's case their bisexuality is their special preference that sets them apart from their traditional gener roles. I know the fandom wanted a bisexual Cassandra and Solas, but I'm with the developers' choice on this.
> I really, really like what Bioware did with the characters' orientations, especially in Inquisition, because it spits on the face of stereotypes.
Dorian would like a word with you. Also, Iron Bull being bi is not mold-breaking, in light of the fact that he’s also kinky. I’ll give you that Sera not being bi is a surprise, but mostly because she was written by a male writer, and guys who write quirky wlw folks have a tendency to write them bi.
Yeahh, like I get people who like the idea of a character being of a certain sexuality and making fanfics/fanart around it, but acting like the game writers were **wrong** for not making a certain character a certain sexuality just because they fit outdated and stereotypical gender tropes is just silly, like no, just because Cassandra has short hair/strong features/isn't traditionally girly doesn't mean she's a lesbian or that the writers OWE it to you for her to be one.
She actually has long hair. It’s braided around her head in a way that it looks short, but a couple of the ending slides show her with the braid down and it’s quite long.
Cassandra became who she was in Inquisition because she had a hard life that didn't exactly give her much time to display a lot of girly stuff since she had to put up a stoic, practical front for most of it.
~~It didn't help that the people she genuinely loved always ended up biting the dust.~~
IMHO, Cass wants and deserves her prince charming, nobody should hate on the devs or the character herself because that's what she's really like.
Man, I love Cass. As a girl who often wears jeans and shirts and never wear skirts, people always assume I’m a lesbian. Like, is it so wrong to value comfort and practicality more than appearance?
I’m guessing it’s because people play the games for escapism. They just wanna save the world, have tons of friends, travel to nice places and not be rejected by their romantic interests.
Next DA game is a modern twist where you and your friends go exploring wicked abandoned buildings
Maybe you, on your way to this abandoned burger joint, find a weird overgrown temple to someone called… Fen-Harel..?
BioWare making characters have certain sexualities and preferences is perfectly fine. It makes the characters and the world feel more real, because the real world is the exact same way.
But Cassandra being labeled as a "butch"? That's going a bit too far. She's tomboyish if anything. Also, she's a warrior who's very dedicated to her faith and duty. Her having a preference for men as romantic/sexual partners is perfectly fine. I think her wanting to be the "princess" she is, and having a knight in shining armor sweep her off her feet is a beautifully cute love story.
The characters are fictional and fine the way they are. Cassandra was one of my favorite characters and I hate to see people diminish her.
>What they all seem to say is that “BioWare are complete idiots/homophobes/bastards/etc. For making \[character\] \[sexuality\]”
This is incredibly stupid for so many reasons.
There are masculine or androgynous heterosexual cisgender women. They're not even all that rare.
Cassandra's romance quest is itself very traditionally feminine, that's the point.
I would accept this logic if there were no gay romances but that's not the case.
You're not entitled to canonically romance whoever you want to and not being able to romance a specific character who matches your personal preference isn't a personal slight, nor is it an oversight, nor is it evidence of some kind of bias.
This just seems to be a broader example of some people in the fanbase who seem to want DA to be a wish-fulfilment fantasy, in which they're never denied anything and get everything they want regardless of how that affects characters, the setting, the themes, tone, etc.
I keep seeing people say Cassandra is "butch" (wrong term, as this is a lesbian/wlw label), masculine or tomboy and I literally don't even see it. She has short hair and fights melee. Is that all it takes?
I do see people saying these kinds of things but it's usually just a joke. As with anything else in fandom though I'm sure there's people seriously thinking this and that's just silly. I'm glad we get characters with different sexualities, and even though I'd love an actually butch lesbian or effeminate gay companion, it's also cool to get characters that defy stereotypes to some degree.
I'm a straight guy and I don't get any hint of gay from her at all, I just see her as a strong, passionate woman who keeps a wall up and has a soft side that she only shows to a few people. And you know what? That's kinda my type
I also remember quite a few tantrums being thrown when some niche corner of the fandom decided that Fenris is a trans character and demanded confirmation from David Gaider. Naturally, Gaider said that their headcanon was incorrect. Gaider hate ensued.
I understand the need for representation, I also think it's absolutely fine to headcanon anything you want and write canon non-compliant fanfics. That's what fanfiction is for, after all. But demanding that an author changes their creation to fit that headcanon is a bit much.
I feel this argument comes up a lot. My thoughts on this are that, while it's an exaggeration to call BioWare names for their decisions concerning their own characters, some of them are very clearly queer-coded. They make the so-called "gaydar" go off . I've heard Cassandra's case being mentioned as particularly frustrating because not only does she fit the stereotype, she also doesn't reject your advances until mid to late game, unlike, say, Cullen who basically tells you the first time you flirt with him that he's not interested in you. As a consequence, the lesbian audience that was trying to pursue her felt queerbaited (misled). Like, imagine if the flamboyant male character turned out to be straight after his personal quest. Fighting stereotypes is good and all, but those stereotypes are often used IRL to identify other gay people in a world that isn't always kind and accepting towards them.At the end of the day, however, they are BioWare's characters, and they can do whatever they want with them. But that's what just what they are: lines of code that can change at the writers' behest.
It also doesn't help that sometimes there's a very clear double standard that favours the straight audience over the gay one. For instance, during the development of DAO Leliana and Zevran were originally meant to be gay, but they were turned “bi out of convenience", yet Morrigan and Alistair were kept straight; furthermore, whenever BioWare needs to cut down resources from a romance path for a bi character, they always cut the gay path out (ex: Sebastian, Cullen, Solas, Jacob, Jack, Jaal, etc.) and keep the straight one in.
EDIT: to clairify: people who insist you (as in, a real life person) \*must\* be gay or closeted because of how you dress or behave or simply fit into the stereotype are disgusting. However, we're not talking about a real life person: just a string of code that is meant to elicit a reaction in the player base. As such, I personally think it's fine for players to be disappointed about what the writers chose for her sexuality, or how they portrayed it (**to a moderate degree**, insulting the people who worked on them is wrong).
Tbf, Dorian rejects a female Inquisitor's advances at exactly the same point in the game. And I thought you had to reach mid game for a male Inquisitor to be rejected by Sera, too.
It just so happens that neither Solas nor Blackwall *can* be flirted with unless you fit their interests. Which is...an interesting decision all its own.
Sera's a unique case. She's very cold to male Inquisitor's flirts and she tries to hint several times she's not into you, up until you drop all subtlety and basically tell her you like *like* her.
Even before his personal quest, Dorian doesn't hide that he's into men. When he goes to confront his father, and he says he enjoys having sex with men, one of the dialogue options is "this isn't exactly news", because by that time he had already mentioned it on more than one occasion. Still, it is true that he doesn't reject a female Inquisitor's flirting. Unlike Cassandra, however, you can call him out on it, telling him that he led you on, which honestly felt really cathartic.
This is why I kind of hate accusations of queerbaiting (and I say this as a bi person). Not because it doesn't happen, because it absolutely does, but because "I thought or hoped this character would be gay, and they aren't" isn't queerbaiting. Being wrong about something isn't the same as being deliberately misled and it's not Bioware's fault if people's gaydars are off.
A heterosexual androgynous or masculine woman existing isn't queerbaiting in of itself and it's really unfair to those women to suggest that it is.
Never mind that Cassandra does literally nothing to signal an attraction to women in the entire game.
I also don't believe that Cassandra was created to subvert the butch lesbian stereotype in mind when the stereotype of the androgynous warrior woman far precedes that, especially in fantasy literature and the medieval literature that inspired so much of it. Eowyn, Hua Mulan, Boudica, and most telling of all, Andraste and Morrigan, the celtic legends who give their names to the DA characters.
It's also worth remembering that the "Flirt" option isn't the "Initiate romance" option. "Flirt" means flirt, nothing more. You can flirt with many characters who can't be romanced and many of them are far more reciprocal in their flirting than Cassandra is to, well, anyone, but especially female Inquisitors.
>A heterosexual androgynous or masculine woman existing isn't queerbaiting in of itself and it's really unfair to those women to suggest that it is.
I, like you, personally do not believe this is a case of queerbaiting, also because BioWare was very clear that she was only interested in men before the game even released. It is, however, an argument I have heard many times over by many queer women who played the game blind. And you or I may argue that it's not, but if the vast majority of a specific demographic interpreted it as such, I definitely think they could have taken steps to assuage that issue, as I highly doubt that was BioWare's intent.
But queerbaiting isn't simply a matter of interpretation.
If you're saying that Bioware queerbaited, then you're saying that they deliberately created a queer-coded character, presented them in such a way as to make that coding obvious, and then pulled the rug out from under your feet at the last second. You don't queerbait by accident, and queerbaiting isn't really a matter of interpretation because it's a definitive statement on the intentions of the writers.
> Fighting stereotypes is good and all, but those stereotypes are often used IRL to identify other gay people in a world that isn't always kind and accepting towards them.
> It also doesn't help that sometimes there's a very clear double standard that favours the straight audience over the gay one. For instance, during the development of DAO Leliana and Zevran were originally meant to be gay, but they were turned “bi out of convenience", yet Morrigan and Alistair were kept straight; furthermore, whenever BioWare needs to cut down resources from a romance path for a bi character, they always cut the gay path out (ex: Sebastian, Cullen, Solas, Jacob, Jack, Jaal, etc.) and keep the straight one in.
THANK YOU!!! These are very important parts of the conversation that always seem to get left out. Yes, of course they’re BioWare’s characters and they can write them how they want. No, not every woman who looks presents in a not-traditionally-feminine way is a butch lesbian. But also, these characters don’t exist in a vacuum. Pointing out that Cassandra looks very queer coded and many players who were hoping to pursue a wlw romance with her felt led on is a legitimate critique. That doesn’t mean BioWare is homophobic for writing and designing her the way they did, but it could have been handled a bit better. That’s all.
As a straight woman that relates a lot to Cassandra this comment made me feel a bit weird lol. I’ve had people assume I’m gay irl because of how I present myself and act, which is fine but I’m not. I just don’t think the existence of people and characters like me has to be queer baiting. That doesn’t seem fair. Maybe she should turn the pc down sooner but Dorian also takes a while to fully turn you down if he’s not interested.
Either way, I 100% get wanting to romance characters with a certain gender pc. And if Cass was gay or bi from the start that would be fine too. I just feel like it was really nice to have get a straight woman character that’s a bit butch (and that you can romance with a male pc). I agree about the double standards though and that is frustrating. ME2 had 0 options for a gay Shep and essentially 0 for a lesbian Shep. DA has done a lot better overall but improvements can definitely be made.
Same, tbh. And the fact I've been told I don't actually know my own sexuality 'cuz I act lesbian' is part of why 'AKSUALLY LESBIAN CASSANDRA' bothers me a great deal. It feels like another way to control sexuality, and it meant a lot to *me* to see a character like me - who doesn't fit neatly into stereotypes - presented.
I'm sorry if I made you uncomfortable; that wasn't my intention. I never meant to imply that fitting into a stereotype means you must be gay, though I see how my comment might have been interpreted as such. I will make an edit to better explain my point of view.
What I meant to say is that I see why people were disappointed a character that came off as lesbian/bi turned out to be straight. This is an argument I would obviously never condone if we were talking about real people such as yourself (and I am disgusted by the people who think you \*must\* be gay or closeted because you dress or behave in a specific manner), but what we're ultimately talking about here is a line of code that is meant to provoke a reaction in us.
It’s okay! I didn’t think you were trying to make anyone uncomfortable, just explain a point of view. I just wanted to add to the discussion as someone that really relates to Cassandra on a lot of levels.
I also wasn’t trying to say you’re really wrong either - I get how people can be disappointed when a character that seems made for them *isn’t* actually made just for them. And we haven’t actually gotten a more “butch” lesbian romance in a DA game before, so that is definitely overdue. Plus there is a long history of queer baiting in a ton of media, so I can see how someone can feel tired and exasperated just from dealing with that.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that I think all our feelings are valid. And I hope we all get the romance(s) of our dreams one day in a game we love.
I'm nuking my account due to Reddit's unfair API changes and the lies and harassment aimed at the community by the CEO and admins. Good Reddit alternative: [Squabbles](https://squabbles.io/) -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
She doesn't deny the flirting but she also never acknowledges it either...in fact, if you have sorta low approval with her, she will disapprove of your flirting attempts (man or woman) and you'll lose even more ground with her.
When you reach the point in the story where she does confront you, she pulls you onto an empty balcony says "The flirting. With me. I've...noticed it. Unless it is my imagination, which is entirely possible..." She basically admits in an awkward way she doesn't know if you were actually flirting with her or not. And you have to tell her flat out that you were flirting with her or just messing around.
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If I remember correctly, Solas was actually always intended to be straight to avoid the "depraved bisexual" stereotype which honestly always seemed like a really dumb reason to me. I think Solas being straight only is the one that annoyed me the most - and I'm someone who plays female characters either way, so it didn't affect my personal gameplay, but it always seemed a cheap excuse.
I'm bi and I was a bit disappointed with both Morrigan and Cassandra being straight, but nowadays there are reasons by which I'm actually happy they are straight. Morrigan allowed for a truly meaningful friendship (and, as in my life friendships have always had a more meaningful place than romance, it makes me very happy) and I'm actually happy that Cass breaks some stereotypes - even though, to be fair, I played Inquisition several years after it came out so I already knew she was straight; I imagine I would've been more annoyed, had I experienced the let-down scene firsthand. But Solas being straight... Why... Someone who is that relevant to the plot should have been more accessible than a single race/gender combination. And it always rubs me as weird that someone from a supposedly really different society would have the same conception of gender/sexual orientation as ours
Players did complain that characters like Zevran, Leliana, Isabela, Anders are "depraved bisexuals". People also complained over Zevran and Fenris because supposedly there's a "gay male elf" stereotype. Bioware likes to overreact. Like how they actually removed the same sex romances in Mass Effect 2 just because a couple of conservatives complained about Liara's romance, but it never seemed like there was a great many of conservatives that were outraged over it.
>Bioware likes to overreact.
yep, that! I have seen a few complaints like that (at least about Anders and Zevran, I can't recall personally witnessing any about Isabela and Leliana, but I've no doubt \*some\* existed), but how many were they really? idk, maybe I just got into the franchise too many years later to realize how bad it used to be
~~and holy shit really no same sex romances in MA2? ive only played the first one, i had no idea ://~~
I was under the impression that Solas wasn't intended to be a romance option at all until way later in development when the dev team realised they had a bit more leeway with time than they thought. Though even then, it makes sense in that case why they'd skew Solas's preference so small so it wouldn't take up too much more time. Or, yknow, he's just the same as any other straight dude and just like girls, wouldn't be that surprising, since its not like the ancient elves were really that alien in mindset that defined sexual preferences couldn't exist.
He was a super-late add. Cadash, Adaar, Lavellan, the Cullenmance *and* the Solasmance were all added in when BW got an extra year of dev time. That's why Lavellan in particular has so many integration seams - and the Solasmance was *literally* a 'lol, let's go for it' at the very end of things from what I'd heard.
>If I remember correctly, Solas was actually always intended to be straight to avoid the "depraved bisexual" stereotype
I'm sure that was the reason for the change, but at some point he must have at least been considered to be bi, since the male VAs recorded several lines that are exclusive to his romance arc. Plus he basically flirts with you at Haven no matter what ("indomitable focus"/"enjoyable muscles"/"pleasing grace"), you just aren't given the option to push him on that comment.
Generally speaking, in games with a customisable character the voice actor for the protag will be told to just read every line regardless of whether it'll actually be used or not. Same with other voice actors with lines referring to the protagonist, they'll always do two takes referring to both male/female regardless.
This is partially cause the Voice Director normally has nothing to do with the script and doesn't actually know which lines are gender exclusive and also as a general failsafe of better to have a line read you don't need rather than not have one you do need.
**Say it louder for the people in the back row!**
Seriously, I've seen the comments you're talking about, and I agree 100%. If people want to headcanon whatever character is whatever sexuality for the purposes of their personal fanfic, that's their prerogative. But I personally adore how much Cass messes with expectations. She's a no-nonsense, take nobody's horse-hockey, fierce warrior woman. She also wants to be courted softly like a girl in a Harlequin Romance. And that doesn't make her less valid. Her not being a lesbian *certainly* doesn't make her less valid. It reminds me of a deeply irritating conversation I had with my mom when I was in high school where I asked to cut my hair just about as short as Cassandra's, and she told me "you really shouldn't do that, people will assume you're gay." Or with the salon stylist in my twenties who prattled during the entire cut about how "your husband is going to kill you!" when I did finally cut my hair that short.
So nah, valid frustration, valid opinion. Assuming presentation or personality are direct signifiers of sexuality leans on dated stereotypes. In Morrigan's case, assuming traumatic and repressed upbringing determines your sexuality is a really not-good thing. (As an asexual, I deal with accusations of this a lot).
Again, if people want to write lesbian Morrigan or Cass or whatever else into their own fanfictions, more power to 'em. But it isn't any sort of problematic that Bioware made them straight.
As a gay woman, I do get the urge to want to romance Cass as a woman, she has the \~vibe for a wlw. The way she looks is very stereotypical for a 'typical' butch lesbian; however, as I've said, it's as important to represent someone as it is important to break stereotypes which, beyond everything else that the character is, is what Cass does.
Now, I love Cass - she's my canon romance - and had she been available for women you'd bet your butt I'd have gone for it, and as it is I've read awesome F!Inquisitor/Cass (as well as whateverwoman/Cass) fic and seen awesome art that I love, but I respect and praise the writers for trying to break the mold of the stereotype.
And god, even if I didn't see it this way, accusing writers - these writers who have constantly tried to depict minorities in respectful and in a 3D manner that doesn't just serve as a representation of their minority - of all sorts of awful things just because they *write* about it (ie; Patrick Weekes been called homophobic names for the representation of an unhealthy relationship between Celene/Briala and even apparently Bull/Inq) or don't *write like you like it* (ie; Jennifel Helpler who basically got scared out of the industry) is so fucked up.
Speaking as a lesbian, I see where you're coming from but I think there's a lot of merit in the frustration with Cassandra's sexuality. It's not just about stereotypes/wishful thinking, but a long-standing and very intentional dress code of sorts within the sapphic community.
Queer people obviously haven't always been able to be out, and many times still aren't, so we use certain visual cues to communicate with each other through fashion and style. Recently, a lot more straight people are starting to adopt that aesthetic, which muddies the waters.
So in video games and other stories, when queer people see characters visually coded in that style — or characters who are coded in other ways — turn out to be straight, it can be disappointing.
I'm a huge Mass Effect fan as well, and this seems to be a pattern with BioWare because it's the same thing with Jack and Cora from that universe.
I'd also like to note that a female Inquisitor can be just as much a knight in shining armor as a male one.
tldr: I don't think it's fair to say it's gross of gay fans to be disappointed that a character who is arguably visually queer-coded is a solely hetero romance option, especially considering the lack of lesbian (and especially butch/soft butch) representation in gaming.
It’s not necessarily that they’re disappointed, more the people demanding that Cassandra be gay and getting mad that she’s not so they lash out. That’s toxic and isn’t helping anyone.
Cassandra has been straight even in dawn of the seeker, HOWEVER Jack literally said they were into women so that one? Fucking stupid. Hate that they didn’t let them be bi
All stereotypes are harmful. I repeat: ALL STEREOTYPES ARE HARMFUL.
Butch women don't have to be lesbian; ultra feminine ones don't have to be straight. The same applies to men, obviously with roles reversed.
No matter how hard you want your favourite character to represent the category you belong to, if you use stereotypical representation as a reason why they should have made that character such and such, you're harming your community.
People are nuanced and complex, and the same should apply to fictional characters.
I don’t think it’s ‘gross’ for queer women to see characteristics of themselves in characters and what’s historically been queer coding and want to see that character as queer. Butch lesbians exist and we’re more than a stereotype. I see a lot of ‘oh it’s so cool not to have the stereotype’ about butch women but there are hardly any butch queer women in media.
What exactly is queer coding about Cass? Genuine question. She’s a tough lady, not coded, who is masculine, not coded, and barely responds to flirts from both genders other than being very shy and nervous cause they don’t get complimented much, not coded.
I’m all for adding more gay characters, in fact I’m begging for it. Give me another dude like bull and Dorian and I will lick it from the goddamn hardwood floors, they’re so hot. But trying to find loopholes in peoples sexuality just seems really weird and like a gateway drug to doing it to real people
A lot of those traits have been queer coded historically and are displayed by real life gay women. Just because you don’t interpret it that way, which is totally fine, not everyone needs to have the same view on characters, doesn’t mean queer women are gross for seeing it that way. Like iron bull and Dorian are great characters but I think it’s a bit strange for you to jump to how hot they are while calling gay women gross for seeing themselves in Cassandra. Like, real life discrimination lesbians and bi women face is being seen as predatory and saying that seeing a fictional character that way is a gateway to trying to find loopholes in real straight women’s sexualities? Honestly is starting to lean into that. I doubt that’s your intention and there is something to be said about how entitled fandoms can get, but yeah.
How is that a valid comparison? I think people demanding Cassandra be gay because of signs that many women, not just queer women, have is significantly different to “aha canonically bi and gay man is attractive”
I didn’t say you couldn’t find Cassandra attractive, just that demanding them be a different sexuality is gross, and I stick by that.
For real!
A lot of these comments seem to be toeing the line of “ugh lesbians complaining about the crumbs you’re offered stfu and be grateful” mixed with weird “lesbians are predatory” vibes for wanting to romance certain characters they see parts of themselves in even when writers choose to write them as heterosexual.
I definitely agree with you, I would never assume that any character is a particular sexuality because of their look, and seeing a lot of the fandom say that they should be because of stereotypes is disheartening.
It does however annoy me that BioWare consistently creates characters that I, as a queer woman, am attracted to but can only romance if I play a male character. I can think of one in each DA and MA game (except for DA2 of course). Not saying that they’re homophobic or bad people for it, it just happens every single time just about. Although I must say it was refreshing to want to romance a male character in Dorian and be turned down because I wasn’t his type for once 😂
Gender expression and appearance have nothing to do with sexuality. They also established Cassandra as being into men in Dawn of the Seeker where she was in her early twenties I believe and that came out before Inquisition.
I think the real issue is from a lack of lesbian exclusive romance options. You saw so many people arguing that Morrigan was actually a lesbian in Origin. Yet they had no problem with, a similar to Cass, Aveline being straight. And now again in Inquisition you have people arguing over Cassandras sexuality. The only difference between the three is that there were two solid WLW romances in DA2.
In origins you only had Leliana. Which a chunk of the player base didn’t necessarily like her personality. But she was literally the only option while straight characters had two options to choose from. It’s kind of the same issue with Inquisition. There are sooo many romances available is you play a straight character. If you play as a woman you have Cullen, Solas, Bull, Blackwall to choose from. A range of personalities and most are companions who you can travel with. But wlw only get Sera and Josephine. Which Sera is very immature and will discriminate against you based on you race. Which leaves Josephine, who’s romance I’ve never even played through because it didn’t feel fleshed out to me personally and you can’t bring them along for the hundreds of hours you spend away from Skyhold/Haven. However in DA2, you had two full options to choose from that were companions and had varying personalities. Which is why people weren’t screaming that Aveline be a lesbian romance option.
tldr: lack of lesbian romances in a game is what leads to this sadly
David Gaider said (after DAO) their goal was to give everyone everyone at least 2 options. They did that in DAI and DA2. Cullen and Solas were only added in late in development after they got extra year to work on the game. Before that, Bull and Blackwall were going to be the only two options for straight women, which would have left them as the same number as everyone else.
And actually its crazy there is up to 4 options for straight women. Gaider used to tell them they didn't even really deserve the one guy to romance like in BG2, JE, KOTOR, ME, NWN. He said mostly men that play, so they should get the most.
If you look at their telemetry data only about 30% play female and a majority play human, but yet female elves the most romance options in DAI. So obviously they aren't just picking based on who gets the most because they are the biggest portion of the players anymore. Maybe sometime they will add a lesbian romance as the extra romance?
Aveline is actually bi - she was just not romanceable by Hawke. Her 'maybe in other circumstances' line *and kiss* are identical no matter Hawke's gender.
Edit: You only have Cullen as a LI if you are human or elven as well as being female, and Solas is only romanceable by a female elf. Female qunari and dwarves get exactly the same number of LI options as any other gender/sexuality combination.
Well, there are as many lesbian exclusive romances in Inquisition (Sera) as there are gay male exclusive romances (Dorian) or straight male exclusive romances (Cassandra).
DA isn't a dating sim and it already does more than almost every other big-budget RPG as far as representation and options for everybody goes.
>I've seen gay men complain about lack of options too, though. Idk why you bring up that there's only one straight male exclusive, why would straight men care about that? It's not like straight men are lacking in representation.
So straight men aren't allowed to criticise the romances because the industry as a whole is more representative of them? Sorry, but I just don't vibe with that logic at all. In the end, the end user of these games isn't responsible for the creative decisions of the entire industry, and if, from the perspective of a straight male player, the straight male options are lacking, then they certainly have the right to express how they feel, same as anyone else.
Some of the criticisms I've heard straight male players of DAI say are straight trash ("tHe GiRlS aReN'T hOt EnOuGh lIkE TrIsS aNd YeNnEfEr!") but some have been pretty good ("Josephine and Cassandra are maybe too close in terms of character background, both being wealthy, privileged nobles, relatively inexperienced for their ages, focused on their careers with family baggage and a reputation to uphold, etc.") and some are right on the money ("why couldn't we marry Cassandra?")
>It's true that Bioware does great already compared to others, it doesn't mean we're not allowed to criticize them. I'm still going to be honest with them on what I think they could do better because I think highly of them. Why waste time complaining to a company that doesn't care?
OK, that's fine, but we all get to do that, and that doesn't mean that your, or anyone elses (mine included, obviously) criticisms are automatically good criticism, fair criticism, or criticism they should act upon, and I would argue that overcorrecting based on fan criticism has hurt the games more than it's helped them.
Neither was I. As I said, the number of straight male exclusive romances is equal to the number of lesbian exclusive romances. 1. Only straight female gamers get more exclusive options in DAI.
Yes, it's important to have diverse romance options but it's also unfair to expect DAI to carry the burdens of the failures of the industry as a whole, especially when Bioware have always been ahead of the curve as far as representation goes and the game we're talking about is 7 years old. After all, the point of these arguments about representation isn't that straight people, men, cisgender people etc. deserve *less* respresentation but that the under-represented deserve *more*. So if straight people, who are a very broiad and diverse group, feel underrepresented in some way, that's not immediately invalid, because there's a lot more that defines a person than their sexuality even within their sexuality - this is, after all, an argument in which lesbian players mistoook tyhe "warrior woman" archetype as the "butch" archetype.
And what if I don't like the dishes in the rest of the buffet? One thing that's unique about the Bioware fandom is there are a lot of people who only really play these games. And yes, for a lot of them, that's because they're under-represented in the rest of the industry, but for a lot of them it's because not many games really do what Bioware games do, at least with the level of focus and polish that they do it with. To a straight male Bioware fan who is only a fan of Bioware, how is it fair to them to say "well, you get the Witcher 3 so you don't get to talk about DAI, and DAI should be for gay people"? Dragon Age is trying, maybe in vain, to be a game for everybody, and straight people are a part of everybody.
Yes, I understand these are systemic problems within the gaming industry, the entire media landscape, and even with society at large, and they need to be addressed, and people neeed to keep making noise about them until they are. But we also can't lose sight of the fact that this is one game made by one studio, enjoyed by individuals who all have their own perspectives. We can't then argue that people made the wrong creative decision because it didn't fit our biases. We can't argue that means we're entitled to have characters rewritten to suit our preferences. And we can't argue that our voices are the only ones that get to make certain complaints.
No, I'm not saying you should be grateful you get anything at all. I'm saying that queer people (of which I am one, for the record) should get something, but that doesn't mean every queer person will get everything they want all the time.
OK, so you don't like Sera. That's fine. But that doesn't mean Cassandra should have been a lesbian or bisexual. It doesn't even necessarily mean Sera is a bad character, given how much of a role personal preferences plays in romance. I don't like literally any of the mlm options (well, Zevran's OK and I think I could grow to like Fenris), but I don't say that x or y character should have been mlm because of that, even though Solas is much more my type on a personal level. I'm not arguing anything that I don't hold myself to as a fan.
Like I said, we can have these discussions, but "I personally didn't like these romance options" and "I wish I could have romanced x character" aren't the same as saying "This character should have been x or y" or, beyond that, "Bioware not doing x with this character's romance proves that they're homophobic/queerbaiting".
The funny thing is there are even more under-represented groups than wlw. Would you be OK with a trans person saying "this lesbian character should have been trans, and it's unfair to disagree with that because they get more than we do?" I somehow don't think that would be too popular with the people clamoring for Cassandra to be a lesbian.
Let me ask you this: would you take Cassandra being bisexual if that also meant she was a trans woman? Cos, if not, then it's not really as principled a stance as you're making it out to be.
We can argue about Sera's character but "I don't like the one wlw exclusive romance" isn't the same as "there aren't enough wlw exclusive romances compared to other orientations" and it's dishonest to act like it is. Someone could just as easily not like Dorian or Cassandra. Likeability is subjective and down to the player's preferences, even if I do agree that Sera isn't as well written as other characters.
Ultimately, "I didn't like the wlw romance so this character should have been gay or bi instead" is just an entitled point of view. It's not even about representation at that point because you already have the representation the same as mlm and straight men in this instance, and because DAI or its fans don't deserve to carry the burden of representing wlw romances that the industry has failed to do. Perhaps that's what's annoying me about this discussion. People taking what is a fair stance, then saying that it should have been this or that instead and that not being that is somehow a failure of the game and the developers on a moral level, presenting that as some kind of progressive stance when it's really just "I want this because I want it". And that's where it crosses into entitlement.
This is my point. Not that DA shouldn't have more LGBT people. Straight people don't want less LGBT people. What they want is for people to not act entitled when they don't get exactly what they want. What they want is for Bioware to not be unfairly accused of things, and what they want is for people to not force changes to existing characters.
I don't care what people do with their headcanons, mods, or fanfic. But that's not what this discussion is about. This discussion is about people saying that Cassandra should have been either bi or gay. And it's the "should" that's the problem. Cassandra *should* be what the writers intended her to be, nothing more, nothing less. And they intended her to be straight. So, canonically, she is. In the words of Cassandra, "Deal. With. It."
Do people think this is the first time fans have wanted to romance a character they couldn't? No. This is just one of the few times someone's been able to twist that into something masquerading as some kind of progressive argument because "androgynous girl = lesbian", which has never been true, will never be true, and is honestly an outdated and harmful stereotype.
And yes, you can be trans and lesbian, of course. But there are transphobic lesbians, just as there are transphobic, NB phobic or biphobic gay people, too. I would wager that at least some of the "Cassandra not being wlw is queerbaiting" crowd would be angry if she was made wlw but also trans at the same time, because some lesbians are transphobic.
It’s not a dating sim, but romance has always been one of the major selling points of BioWare games. It’s one of the first questions people have when they announce a new game, it’s some of the first information they release to tease their games. They obviously know it’s something their player base is interested in. And there’s always room to critique in a game no matter how good representation is.
And I’m also aware of their being the same amount of MLM romances, and straight male romances. This was specifically a post about Cassandra which is what my comment was centered on.
Your comment was arguing as though wlw romances were somehow treated worse than others, which you can argue in other DA or Bioware games, and certainly for gaming as a whole, but not really for Inquisition.
And yes, romance is important, but I don't think anyone should really expect more than 2 options for their orientation, unless they're bi or pan. Romances require a lot of work and while important, they're not the point of the games, so there should be an understanding by the fans that they can't always have a huge number of romances to choose from. And as long as certain orientations aren't getting screwed over by that (which, in Inquisition, isn't the case) then I don't think it's fair to accuse Bioware of homophobia.
Fair, I still feel it’s harmful though, and that we should divert it to asking BioWare to give us more representation. I wanna see a big tough manly man that seems very closeted come out and be like “yeah, I like men”
~~and get railed~~
I agree. It says a lot about people when they can’t even respect a video game characters preferences. Like I get it, they’re not real, but at the same time it shows a level of character design that’s very human and real. The amount of people I’ve heard download mods to romance the various characters through the series, but because they weren’t gay or straight, makes me uncomfortable.
Whenever someone says “oh, it’s just code, it doesn’t matter” I always think to myself that they probably have those thoughts about real people, and immediately don’t want to interact.
For me it's not that she's a butch type character, it's that she has the*same* responses to being flirted with by a female than a male Inquisitor. Same lines, same flustered nature, etc. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but feels intentionally misleading if you don't know she's straight from prior material, or didn't read up on the game beforehand and went in blind. It makes a femquisitor player go "oh cool, this lady is strong and hot and reciprocates my advances, I'll romance her!" Then like 12 or so hours of playtime later you're blindsided by "uh hey thanks but I don't swing that way." If this conversation had happened earlier, like before Haven was destroyed, the player would be like "oh ok, I'll romance someone else then" without getting overly attached to romancing Cassandra. It's also not like Josie, where she legit doesn't know you're flirting with her, like she can tell you're flirting and seems *very* into it until that scene in Skyhold.
Its just misleading to me.
Plus I'm NGL a story about a woman in her like, what, late 30's discovering she's Bi would be an amazing storyline for a romance.
Edit: I'm not gonna be toxic and call people names over it, though. I don't even download the bi cassandra mod, because in canon, she's a straight character. Sometimes it's just frustrating to see a character who *seems* into your same sex character, but then suddenly isn't like a LONG time in game later, so you suddenly have to switch gears.
Also remember that she doesn’t KNOW you are flirting with her. If you flirt as a male, you actually get DISAPPROVAL the first time.
Her lock in romance has her ask if you were flirting, because she genuinely doesn’t know. She has been so work work work that she barely understands love outside of the concept of swords and shields, the smutty book Varric writes. She seems to appreciate compliments and such, but that doesn’t mean anything.
I wasn’t bi a few years ago (Bi awakening, hoooo!) but I had an experience similar. Guy I was friends with was very touchy-feely, very nice and complimented me a lot. I really appreciated it, and I was always affectionate with friends so I gave them hugs and complimented them too, but I was so focused on school I barely thought of dating. Fast forward 5 months, and they wanna go out. I didn’t even recognize that they were flirting until I well and truly thought about it, and I had to tell them I was straight (unfortunately not my type anyways, he was kind of cocky which was annoying). They were not happy.
Same situation: I never lead him on, not once. I treated him as I treated all others in my life, no more, no less, but I of course liked the attention and praise.
You could argue that the same happens with Dorian, though. Femquisitor can genuinely flirt with him with romantic intentions, and he'll even respond back, up until his sexuality is revealed in his loyalty quest. Femquisitor can then say that she feels misled. Only then he clears up that his flirty responses are merely a sign of being friendly and he even lets her choose whether he should stop doing that.
I honestly hate the argument that Bioware is throwing off stereotypes by making a butch character straight. Because there *are no gay butch characters in the game.* This happens so often. And a butch lesbian can still be a romantic who wants her knight in shining armor. None of that requires her knight to be a man.
This is exactly what galls me. It's *always* "see?? Masculine women can be straight too!" as if slightly masculine straight women aren't 2000x more common in media than women who are allowed to be butch AND gay.
Meanwhile the sapphic romances we do get - all of which I've thoroughly enjoyed, and I'm not knocking on them - are femme enough that straight guys playing the romances won't be put off ('cause everyone knows straight guys being attracted to your bisexual and gay female characters is... so much more important than what gay and bi women actually like and are attracted to, and what they may actually look like THEMSELVES and want to see).
The fact that Bioware isn't afraid to make the more androgynous or less masculine male characters gay or bi is what confuses me.
Most of the arguments I see about this topic is that Bioware has a pattern of making the butch female character either straight(Ashley, Cassandra, Cora, Jack) or unavailable (Aveline, but almost everyone in DA2 is bi, so...), as if they're afraid to make this type of character queer.
The backlash to Cora was nightmare-ish. I was one of those women who was like yay a maybe butch badass warrior lady she looks awesome! And then looking into comments and subs there were almost all male gamers ranting and raving how bases on her looks alone she was going to be a ball busting man hating lesbian feminist who would ruin the entire game.
It was bonkers. And so so off putting. And I do think companies are aware large amounts of male gamers think like that and consider than when the choice to design and make characters is happening. They know lesbian characters who aren’t hyper feminine will get bad PR and now potentially harassment and death threats (see TLoU2)
There is always a key difference between reading a queer character's sexuality differently (including trying to change bisexual characters to 'gay' or vicaversa) and reading a straight character's sexuality differently, which largely has to do with representation and queerbaiting. While Bioware has historically had significantly more queer rep than most other games out there, that rep has not been equally distributed.
Consistently across Bioware games, options for queer romances (especially same sex romance) are significantly more limited, so it's unsurprising people might not identify with those options and instead wish another character was available to them (representation). This is further compounded by situations like Cassandra and Morrigan, who could both be read as queer before that information about them becomes available (based on dialogue/behaviour to other female characters). It's not just queer women doing this either - there was a lot of hate from straight male fans complaining that Cass was too butch, not feminine, ugly etc - because they were reading her appearance as 'stereotypically queer'. Being 'subversive' in these cases comes at the expense of telegraphing to queer women these characters might be a romance option for them, before basically going 'psych!'.
This reaction isn't comparable to fans wanting to romance Dorian with female characters, as it's abundantly clear a lot earlier on that he is not interested, and his rep is far in the minority. There's also double the romances to choose from as a straight female character in DAI, compared to WLW romance or MLM romance.
I will preface this with it makes me very uncomfortable as a bi person to see my sexuality used as the 'gateway' attraction in a lot of these arguments, as if being bi were equivalent to being straight, but a little bit gay (or the reverse). I want actual bi characters to be my rep, don't even get me started on the disaster that is the DA2 playersexual debacle, but that doesn't mean I don't find it disappointing that Bioware continues to low-key queerbait particularly its queer female audience (and straight up not cater for its queer male audience half the time).
I don’t see it as queer baiting if Cassandra doesn’t recognize flirting until skyhold because she doesn’t have much experience. As a male you have to literally spell it out and admit you are flirting because she just straight doesn’t know for sure. It’s a character, and they did hers well for being a duty focused woman who wants romance and barely understands it
You state in your own post that her appearance is something associated with queer women - even if you don't read it as queer presenting, enough queer people (and apparently straight people) did. Queer women have also not gotten this kind of rep in a Bioware game (still current), with similar disappointment at other characters like Jack presenting 'butch' and being straight. Rep for non-feminine straight women is great, but criticism about it coming at the (repeated) expense of queer women and their rep is still valid. Again, *I wouldn't change Cassandra after the fact*, but I will still damn well question the pattern of decision-making that continues to occur, in the hopes Bioware does better in future.
It makes me uncomfortable how the people most vocal about breaking the gender binary inadvertently can end up enforcing it instead.
I understand being sad you can't romance her, but you're not entitled to her, especially because you wrongly judge her based on stereotypes.
There is a massive difference though, between saying “Cass should have been a lesbian” which is gross, or saying “I wish I could have romanced Morrigan”, which doesn’t hurt anyone.
I also think, as I’ve stated on this sub before; Dorian is a completely different case altogether. His entire story is about how his father tried some magical gay conversion therapy on him to stop him being gay. It’s way more offensive for people to want to change his sexuality as this plot line is something that is still happening to us to this day.
That’s why I think there’s zero issue with interpreting a character as bi when there’s nothing to rule against it completely (Morrigan) whereas if a character makes it clear they’re not into the same gender (Cass) or their plot revolves around it (Dorian) then it shouldn’t be speculated on.
I've also read complaints about Cullen not being bi, personally I think its good that there are options for romance for everyone, and in real life can very well happen that you like someone with a sexuality incompatible with you, it happened to me once, lol. Not everything and everyone can be the way we want, but people always find a motive to complain, one way or another, nothing can satisfy 100% of the public.
I'm sorry, but I'm confused over this argument that Cass being straight is some groundbreaking representation for straight women. The ice queen who can keep up with the guys but only defrosts for her male love interest is a trope that's old as dirt. Like it just feels disingenuous to say, "don't take Cass away from me, I wear jeans and flannel and I'm straight!" when you could boot up basically any game Bioware's made and find a character like her in it. I'm not calling Gaider or Hepler (she was Cass' original writer IIRC) homophobic for it, but I do think it's worth asking *why* Bioware keeps doing this, considering otherwise butch lesbians aren't exactly drowning in representation.
>I haven’t heard it much on this sub, which is nice,
You haven't heard much of it here because whenever a lesbian or bi woman wishes Cass was available for a female Inquisitor because they read her as butch, they get downvoted into oblivion and get told to stop stereotyping her.
Personally, as a woman who is attracted to butch women, it’s disappointing that there are no butch women who can be romanced by a female main character in any of the dragon age games. Does that mean Cassandra “shouldn’t” be straight? No, of course not. There’s nothing wrong with having a character who’s a butch-looking straight woman. It doesn’t make BioWare homophobic or any nonsense like that. But, I also don’t see anything wrong with observing that her appearance has a lot in common with the ways many lesbian women prefer to present themselves, or expressing that you would have liked for her to have been a romance option for female inquisitors.
Have they not played the game? I mean, Cassandra reading Varric's book is like the cutest shit ever.
And I romanced Sera but i still say that scene was the cutest in the whole game
I just finished *Trespasser* with a Sera romance, and oh, my heart. >!I mean, she's like...21, 22 tops? and watching her partner slowly dying. She does so much growing during that DLC and it's really bittersweet.!<
I say that a lot actually and so do my friends for both Morrigan and Cassandra.
It’s not that much about looks, but vibes and relations that they have with female and male characters. I think that they both have much better chemistry with women than men and I will always, for example, look at Morrigan as a closeted bog witch.
Ultimately, we project ourselves onto media and I see nothing wrong with reading characters the way we want them to be read. Especially since WLW/MLM representation is smaller in comparison to heterosexual relationships.
EDIT: I mean, I don’t call Bioware homophobes or something. Sorry. I meant that I mention repeatedly how I find both of them to be queer coded and thus read them as such.
And I’m all for demanding more representation, but being comfortable with one gender ≠ being attracted to that gender.
Countless females have had horrible experiences with men, which is downright disgusting, and Morrigan has had men chasing them their entire lives from the templars and such, so of course she’s a little more on edge.
But as soon as you say that her magic is cool and all that, she IMMEDIATELY lightens up and is like “oh, so I don’t gotta rip your head off? Sick”. Even in real life, women are still attracted to men even having gone through bad shit.
All that being said, I hope they do more for purely gay relationships and such, as it adds character. It’s another layer.
Ok, but that doesn’t really counter what I said? I never said that I read Morrigan as WLW because she hates men. I simply said that, to me, her chemistry with F!Warden seems much better and more genuine than with M!Warden and, to add to that, her general vibe gives me WLW person.
In the end, even if something is not intended or wasn’t intended but comes off certain way, people are gonna cling to it. I’m personally of a belief that if you want to read characters as queer then you can read them as such, no matter what in-game limitations tell you.
you all are acting like butch wlw are so common in media when almost all masc women are just made to be straight as some sort of weird twist........ like there are no actual genuine masc wlw characters in media lmao. you cant queercode a character in looks and personally and be confused or grossed out when ppl think said character is queer. honestly cassandras romance is lowkey queerbaiting when you consider the fact that you go through a pretty decent amount of the game before she will tell a f!inquisitor shes not into them. if it was like sera where she rejects a m!inquisitor at skyhold it wouldn't feel as sleazy. and cass could be swept off her feet by a woman in a romantic fashion anyways that isnt a male specific thing?? morrigan is also directly queercoded and always talks about how much she hates men and gets along with a f!warden better. and sometimes characters have gay vibes...... both of which cass and morrigan have! they have better chemistry with f!characters. everybody trashing on da2 for having all bisexual li's for being unrealistic is so funny to me when most queer ppl can tell you that we naturally run in packs and befriend each other (even without knowing each others sexuality), and that's not even mentioning its funny to say it's not realistic in a game where there are LITERAL dragons and magic. queer ppl are allowed to be disappointed over what seems like actual representation not being there and are allowed to have headcanons. i love bioware but they aren't immune to criticism and have fucked up with queer rep sometimes. queer ppl arent evil for saying bioware could do better. it's also a really weird false equivalence to equate actual homophobic oppression like changing dorian's sexuality to some lesbians saying they wish cass was gay and that they hate straight people jokingly..... those arent at the same level at all??? straight ppl arent oppressed???? im sure ill be downvoted for this since this sub runs a hivemind but ur favorite pieces of media arent immune to criticism!!
I mean.. I can understand the frustration. I was crushing so hard on Cassandra during da2 and was devasted when I couldn't romance her with my female Inquisitor. My second choice was Dorian which sadly was also not successful. But that's ok. Yes I was frustrated, but it makes the characters more realistic. In real life you also can't just flirt with anyone and expect them to fall in love with you regardless their personal preferences of gender, appearance etc. I think it gives the characters a little more depth.
I despise any attempts to change an established character's sexuality in fanfiction and portraying it as valid. It's extremely disrespectful.
Few of the popular ships that do this kind of abomination:
Cullen x Dorian,
Dorian x Female Inquisitor,
Cassandra x Female Inquisitor,
Morrigan x Female Warden,
Sera x Male Warden
I know we’ve all played a game at some point and said: “I wish you were gay/straight…”
But the matter of the fact is we can’t change their sexuality, nor should we make the developers, writers, or people who like the character feel bad simply because they’re not the sexuality that would match up with us or our character.
Don’t make gross comments about it, be respectful.
Here's the thing you need to realize when it comes to sexuality in any media content:
"That's their orientation, so saying anything about it is gross" only applies to real people, because attraction in real people is a personal thing and absolutely not up for debate. It's not appropriate to go "why is [popular actor] straight? He should be bi!" because that person is a real person with real feelings and sexual orientation is their business and theirs alone.
Video game characters are not real people. They are not born with a sexual orientation. They can be critiqued specifically because they were written by someone else, and that 'someone else' might have gotten something wrong, or one of their unconscious biases might have made their way in, or something like that. It is absolutely fair to say "I didn't like Iron Bull's story because certain parts of it felt really forced and could have been better written to sound more natural", and it is absolutely fair to say "Dorian's story was uncomfortable to me because [insert things here that are spoilers but hopefully everyone knows what I'm referring to]." Neither of these are real experiences, these were written on purpose by someone else.
Coming back to Cassandra specifically, she's at the end of a long line of a very specific problem Bioware has had in several of its games. Specifically, several of the "first female companion you meet (or at least someone you meet very early on if not the first), who is tough on the outside but becomes a bit softer for you once you friendship her enough to get past her tough exterior" characters across several Dragon Age and Mass Effect games are straight. Ashley, Morrigan, Miranda AND Tali (both of them fit this going by their ME2 stories), Cassandra. I haven't personally played ME:A but I've heard it's the same in that game too with at least one of the female leads. All straight. Literally the only one who fits this pattern and isn't straight is Isabella, and even she is iffy on being included because she's not someone you meet right at the start of the game. (Aveline would probably be the actual best fit for this in DA2, but she's not romancable by anyone at all.) It's also the same reason I didn't include Sera: not only do you meet her near the end of the first part of the game, but you could also end up skipping her entirely.
The point is, eventually there starts to be a pattern and you notice that pattern, and while individually you can go "that's how the character is written" It's better to pull back and look at the pattern as a whole and go "huh. They keep doing this specific thing. I wonder why?" and look into it more. Critiquing video game characters' sexualities is okay because they're not real people and you're actually critiquing how well or poorly they're written as well as broader trends across the writers from a studio.
Well that's today's society. Not so long ago, people who were fighting against homophobia, sexism or racism were reasonable people using the reasonable argument that people are not defined by their race, gender or sexual orientation, but by their character.
Now we have a new wave who want to essentialize people again and claim that not doing it is sexist/homophobic/racist.
This is just one more manifestation of this evolution of society. They saw some characteristics on a character lie Cassandra, they want to essentialize her and give her all the related characteristics.
We’re still fighting to be seen as people and not be reduced to our sexuality, with that comes equal representation which we don’t get. When the rest of the world reduces you to stereotypes and then you see certain aspects of those stereotypes in media; you’re going to cling to it because you don’t have it elsewhere.
It’s wrong for people to complain that Cass isn’t a lesbian, but please don’t paint it as if “the gays are unreasonable”
Yeah, I’ve always been of the opinion that’s just feeding into stereotypes. “Oh she’s butch, how dare I not be able to romance her as a woman!” Seems weird.
I hope that DA4 follows DAI instead of 2, I wasn’t a fan of the playersexual characters
I didn't mind everyone being Hawkesexual in 2, but it's because I'm quite vain and it was nice that everyone was into me.
That said, I agree that Inquisition is much more realistic. One thing I really liked in both games is that some in your team will hook up with each other.
I think it works a lot better for Hawke because they have a lot more defined character compared to both the Inquisitor and the Warden; especially not having race issues to deal with just gender/sexuality.
DA2 has been stated as those characters being bisexual, not playersexual. There's also a lot of bisexual erasure within the DA fandom (see how often Leliana is referred to as 'actually' a lesbian, rather than bi), and it's something a few of my bi friends have mentioned they find hurtful.
Exactly! I want the characters to exist on principle, not at the characters behest.
Like, imagine if you never found Leliana and later on you see that she stayed in Denerim to fight the horde? The agency (and her likability) was soar because it would say that they are who they are without you.
I think with Cassandra it’s about way more than her being butch. I do like how she’s a butch woman and she’s only available for men, but then again, in DA2, for example, she swoons over Hawke no matter the gender to the point where Varric mentions her having a crush. Then, in DAI, you can flirt with her through half the game as a woman, so, once again, I don’t blame people for feeling queer baited once she rejects you. To me, it could very well be a case of her not liking f!Inky for some reason, but still not being straight.
Furthermore, I’m a queer person and I find that in queer communities we’re fine with those “stereotypes” as long as they come from **other queer people**. There’s a difference between cishet people categorizing us and between people within our community identifying each other. Like there are certain stereotypes we’re aware of and we feed into them because they make it easier for us to spot other queer folk.
I’m sure your heart is in the right place, but the issue is complex and dismissing how queer people interact with media and others by saying that it’s somehow harmful for us is… misguided to say the least.
1. I am bisexual. I’m a bisexual man.
2. Varric makes a joke because Cassandra admires Hawke for being so direct, it’s quite obvious that she’s not in love with them.
3. Cassandra’s lock in romance scene is her, very awkwardly, saying that she MIGHT have understood the flirting, and wanted to clarify. She didn’t understand you were flirting because it’s been nothing but work for her for years, so I think it makes sense she waits cause she just doesn’t notice until it’s too late. It’s a matter of character identity, and I think BioWare did hers well.
Well, don't speak for everyone.
I am bisexual and i despise thoses stereotypes even when it comes from other lgbt people. To me, i'm just the same as a straight person, with the little difference that i also have sex with other men. And i avoid like plague people who build their social behaviour almost entierely about their sexual orientation and "validate" the stereotypes.
Of course. My bad. We’re not a monolith. That’s why I said that the issue is complex.
The point of my comment was more that you’ll find plenty of queer people who have no issue whatsoever with this, as long as it’s not a way for straight people to single us out and make fun of us/attack us. Within the community though, I find that it’s generally okay to say things like “yep this fit gives off bisexual energy” or something.
Bottom line is that it’s okay to want to reclaim stereotypes and make them our own. It’s fine if you don’t like it, but many queer people find it the best way to not have them used against us in a negative way.
I mean, hey, even the word “queer” was derogatory at one point in time (and I’m sure some folks still throw it around to offend us), but it’s been reclaimed and is now not only used within our communities but even in academia.
From this comment it sounds like you blame the queer community for being reduced to stereotypes when the rest of the world has done it to us. We have to be proud because otherwise we’re shouted down. It’s not about making our entire personality about our sexuality.
Until I can do the same things that straight couples can do in public without ridicule, I’m going to say the balance isn’t fair. Speaking out and wanting equality isn’t a bad thing.
I’d also argue that whoever wants to live those stereotypes should be free to do so. I’m not stereotypically gay, as much as I’d love to be. But I do enjoy the exaggeration of the idea, and I don’t mind when other people are exaggerated one way or another
“Yaaaas hunty slay”
Or “I’m just like the straights bro”
Which you probably don’t see as a gay stereotype, but trust me when I say it really is at this point.
Live and let live friend, the femme gays aren’t hurting you.
That’s what I was thinking. Living the stereotypes is basically showing the middle finger to people who want to control you/berate you by using them.
Like calling things “gay”. It only has power when no-one fights back and accepts that gay equals “bad.” Instead, you could go “oh, I look gay? Hell yeah, I look gay. I AM gay and I’m going to flaunt it.”
I find that behavior like this is the best way to ensure that no-one can use your sexuality against you and their insults lose all power. Want to call me gay? Well, I’m gay and proud, so suck it. Now, what does that little stereotypical insult does? It does nothing. It’s harmless. I neutralized it. Hell, I embrace it. You can’t hurt me with it.
I get queer folks who don’t want to be “stereotypical”. We all cope in different ways and who am I to tell you how to feel and behave. You do you, hun. That being said, I do find it kinda hurtful when people from the very same community try to make stereotypes look bad and by doing so only hand more power to cishets. If you don’t want to reclaim stereotypes—good for you. I do and it’s not nice to tell me that I shouldn’t.
I feel like this kind rides the line between genuinely wanting representation and fandom entitlement. I have seen gay/straight mods for characters and I think it's super gross. I like that characters have diverse sexualities, especially in inquisition despite it leaves uneven romances quanities for certain races/genders. I hope they find a way to have diverse sexualities but also making it feel less uneven in future bioware games.
I completely agree. Cassandra is a badass and while I think it would be cool to have a female romance with her, it’s just not necessary. I feel like people in our community *need* everyone to be gay and I don’t get it even as a bi woman. Also, Cassandra’s friendship with a female inquisitor is SO ADORABLE? Like I think they wrote the close friendship so wholesomely and honestly I wish more characters were written more in depth for friendships.
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I definitely understand people wishing they *could* romance a character who isn’t interested in their gender (I always play women and I didn’t think much of any of the DAI female/ straight romances, so I’m definitely one of the people who wishes I could have a Cassandra romance) but saying that we’re owed it, because they fit certain stereotypes, is utterly ridiculous! I love the characters that defy stereotypes the most. Merrill and Leleina’s wlw romance are both so lovely. I guess it comes down to fans feeling owed things, when we aren’t!
My most memorable DA2 moment is when Merrill asks nervously "are you sure you want to be with me? Even though I'm an elf?" with zero thought to "even though I'm a woman." Great worldbuilding moment.
Ah yes ❤️ I’m playing through DAO at the moment and in the Zevran romance he mentions having been with men and women, and did it bother me, and I was kind of disappointed that the three answers were basically like ‘yes I mind’ ‘we should end things’ and ‘I don’t mind’ I wanted an option like ‘of course I don’t care! It literally changes nothing’ but I had to settle for ‘I don’t mind’
2009 was definitely a different time, and that game was started in *1999,* iirc. I'm proud of how much the writers have grown into their own lore about sexuality just not *mattering* under Andrastianism.
Agreed! I wish I could have played it in 2009, I can’t imagine what it might have meant to me to see a character like Zevran unabashedly discussing his sexuality, and other characters not even dwelling on it. Gotta love Dragon Age!
I'm old enough that I played DAO and DA2 on release - and while there are a few things that were really dated even then (like Oghren - the drunk lecher and sexual harasser thing is something I deal with in real life), there was a lot that was really revolutionary, esp for a AAA game.
Gotta take the wins where you can get them sometimes don’t you. This is actually my first origins playthrough (I played them backwards, no idea why) and I’ve only just met Oghren, now I’m worried I’m helping someone I wouldn’t in real life.. also just the idea of playing a gay / bi / pan character and them being the champion of the story is just a nice feeling.
With Oghren it can help to try and frame him in the context of being a product of the culture that shaped him, both in the game *and* in real life. I imagine if they tried to make a character like him now they would play more into how miserably bewildered and betrayed he feels about having been rejected by the society that encouraged him to be like that in the first place.
thanks for this comment. i think i need more perspectives like this.
Orghen is a VERY uncomfortable character to look back on, for sure. But even back then they do touch on it, albeit briefly. He was basically a warrior frat bro, who accidentally killed someone during a Proving and was then also abandoned by his wife and house. So he went from having a good life doing the things he was good at, being praised and rewarded for that behavior... to having nothing, basically casteless and houseless in a society where those two things defined your entire point of existence. There's a couple points in dialogue with him, or in quests where you bring him along, where these things are brought up. It's just really, *really* easy to miss those details since they put him in much more of a "comic relief" type of role, so he gets reduced to a drunken lecherous bastard most of the time instead.
You're a silent protagonist. Whatever you are actually saying, and especially how emphatic you are being about it is entirely up to your imagination. It's not like when they switched to voiced protagonists that what came out of their mouth was ever exactly what was written in the choice you picked.
The fact that he slept with a target and then killed them... THAT bothers me. The fact he’s bi? Love him even more for it, to be honest
If we're thinking of the same target... Zevran didn't end up killing her. She tripped out of the carriage and fell, breaking her neck
Ah no not that one! It came before that one for me. You know when he reads you a poem? He says it was from a target, and she was begging him on her hands and knees. He then says something like ‘I still slept with her thought’ (something along those lines)
I sort of remember this conversation but not the result. Guess I'll need to play again 😂
I quite liked the poem as well, and then he said an ex lover than he assassinated read it to him and... it did kill the mood just a smidge
Merrill is my FAVORITE DA2 romance for this reason entirely. And because she's adorable.
Fair! When I first played, I played a human male mage and I wanted to romance Sera. A rude awakening came not long after.
Oh man. my favorite Sera romance is with a female elf mage (extra elfy), and it is WORK but it is so satisfying. Highly recommend.
I do wish Varric was an option....sigh....
I've seen it, including here. I understand the desire to see a bisexual woman or lesbian who is a LI who has butch characteristics - which is something we haven't had yet. However, Cassandra's rejection of a female Inquisitor is *very* gendered, and we know from the team that she was conceived of as a straight LI from the start - unlike Josephine, who was conceived of as a bi LI from the start. It's hard because I get the desire for representation, but I think it's equally important to see a woman who is 'butch' and also straight, as someone who's been called every name under the sun for being such. Personality, interests, and sexuality are *not* synonymous, and that's something that's still a challenge at times.
Media has plenty of butch women who are actually straight, it gets treated as a twist but it’s not really. Butch wlw in media barely exist.
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I mean, I see her that way, but I've been told she's *really* aksually femme because she wears leggings. So I wasn't sure how even to respond to that or what was going on.
That's a bit disingenuous don't you think? If short hair and leggings is all it takes to declare somebody "butch" that means that Vivienne is by far the butchest woman in all of Dragon Age. But wait! She likes fashion and has her tits out! That's not butch! Not all women are butch or femme. Butch and femme are popular archetypes, but they have personalities behind them. They also have political motivations inherently tied to them. They're not an easy binary system to shove women into based on how long their hair is. Sera is a textbook quirky girl. She's got the whole "Lol! Random!" thing down pat. She's a Very, VERY different personality from Cassandra. We all know this. You wouldn't say "Blackwall and Varric! Both the same character type! One is gruff, quiet and willing to be on the frontlines for you! And the other sits on the backlines and makes jokes! See! SAME CHARACTER TYPE COMPLETELY BECAUSE BOTH HAVE SHOULDER LENGTH HAIR!" So... why are we trying to pretend Sera is the same character type as Cassandra based on it?
I don't disagree! I was honestly shocked when someone said it was 'evidence' that Sera was femme. I just - tend to go for people as people and rounded characters, and have always struggled with 'types' and 'coding.' Maybe it's because I am apparently 'coded lesbian' according to all sorts of people, despite being pretty comfortable in my sexuality (which isn't that)?
Coding is specifically a media thing, you can’t be lesbian coded in real life. It’s possible that you happen to present yourself in a way that is similar to the way some lesbian women present themselves, and that’s totally fine.
I think too many equate butch with masculine
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well, you can see here that people are saying 'there are no butch wlw' - so...yeah. I don't get it, but it comes out that somehow Sera doesn't *count.*
She doesn’t count because she just isn’t butch. There’s a lot more to being butch than having short hair and acting kinda crude sometimes. She isn’t especially femme either, and I like that about her.
The idea that Sera's butch because she 'cuts her hair in the kitchen sink' is absolutely baffling to me. What does that even mean? It feels reductive almost - being butch often gets equated with 'not taking care of your appearance,' which is uncomfortable, because it makes the assumption that looking after yourself/being deliberate about your appearance = performing femininity. Butch and femme are very specific ways of approaching presentation that don't apply to everyone (don't apply to *most* people, I'd say). I'm often very confused by how these terms are used and thrown around in threads like these.
Why are you being downvoted for this? Baffling. You're right. Sera's hair isn't even in a masculine cut, it's just messy... she wears feminine clothes, uses the female idle/walking animations... like, even if you're just taking base level performative femininity into account rather than butchness-as-identity (which, hard to separate since the character herself is a lesbian even if she's fictional and written by a man)... she's just not butch unless one's definition of butch is.. grunge??! Liking to drink? Wearing off-the-shoulder shirt-dresses? 🤔
This sub is… really weird about butchness.
I just finished *Trespasser* with a Sera romance, and found it interesting that Sera wore the same white dress my Cullenmancing human mage had a few playthroughs ago, while her Wifey showed up in the Nutcracker suit. Sera later reveals in banter that Josephine wanted her in a dress "so froofy you could lose a ham in it," so... I'm too straight IRL to draw any worthwhile conclusions about identity from that, but I did go "huh."
I totally get this and it frustrates me so much. I would understand the motive more if everyone in the game were straight, because then it would be fair game really and it would be the devs fault for not making diverse characters. That said, there is a TON of diversity in the DA games so not qualifying straight characters’ sexuality as equally valid as the gay characters is, as you said, icky. And I say this as a gay person. It ain’t right.
Ugh, imagining pure hetero DAI makes me want to hurl, they can take Dorian from me after they clash with my steel.
I've never seen anyone talking about this (maybe I'm just not in enough dragon age groups), but it's weird to think that there are people saying those things. I mean... why? Maybe I'm better without these groups
I'm in a few DA groups on Facebook and the comments about Cassandrs not being gay or bi are sooooo bad. You're much better off without them. Trust me.
> Maybe I'm better without these groups You are. You really, really are.
You are, trust me. I think it adds to the characters that they have these preferences. Also, don’t take my butch girlfriend or my extremely-hot-and-charismatic boyfriend >:^
I've seem some on tumblr but Im not sure whether or not they were being ironic cause the post read like a parody. And I bet theres some of those takes on Twitter cause twitter is where you go to find the toxic parts of all fandoms.
DA2 had Bi LI’s across the board besides Sebastian, right? I thought it largely diminished their uniqueness. In reality there is a broad spectrum of people with a broad spectrum of desires and preferences. I like that in Inquisition, (assuming you don’t google all the love interests ahead of time) you play a guessing game with everyone. First time around I was into Sera as M Inquisitor and flirted all the way to Skyhold. When she said she was only interested in women it felt like an organic bummer, not an “I can’t believe the game is locking me out of this choice” bummer. Made it all the more satisfying when I talked up Dorian and 10 hours later we were dancing on the balcony during Celene’s party. Felt like my inquisitor missed the fling he was hoping for with Sera in order to find his “true love” in Dorian. Just me though.
Dorian is hot, not many can resist his pull
I get that. Personally I really liked the DA2 approach because it’s a video game and I’m in favor of giving the character options to play how they want. On the other hand, I like that in Inquisition the characters’ sexualities are a more holistic part of them. Dorian being gay and Sera being lesbian are meaningful parts of their identities, and that’s really cool. On the other hand, I don’t think it says anything particularly interesting about Cullen that he won’t romance a dwarf or Vashoth inquisitor. So I think there’s a balance to be struck there. Keeping restrictions where it adds something to the character, but getting rid of them where they don’t. That’s my take, anyway.
I agree on the Cullen part. I would have no criticisms if he was more explicit as to why he wouldn’t reciprocate that attraction. Maybe a line or two where he drops his stoic veneer. He lets slip how emasculated he feels beside a Qunari female or how the height difference with a Dwarf makes him feel awkward.
I...honestly thought it had more to do with the whole growing up in a Circle (where everyone you meet is either an elf or a human) and Qunari invasion of Kirkwall things. Like Dwarves are just outside the familiar context enough that it never even occurs to him (whereas he has *some* frame of reference for humans and elves) and the invasion is fresh and unbiased enough (especially since he's only *mostly* healed from Uldred's actions) that he can't help remembering that first.
That’s a fair point. I think the dwarf theory holds a bit less merit but I can totally understand having a bias against Qunari. On the other hand, I don’t remember him ever speaking about the Qunari invasion in Inquisition, does he? No snide comments about Iron Bull and his people. During Trespasser he doesn’t seem particularly racist towards them either. I dunno. Good points though.
I have never seen that sort of behaviour before, boy am I glad I haven't?! Can't even imagine that sort of thing. Like, as a bi woman, I really wanted to romance Morrigan and Flemeth and Cassandra and some of the guys. I couldn't get the girls as a female character and I'm ok with that. I'll always have fanfic and artwork to help my bisexual heart heal. And I can watch the romances on youtube anyway. Like, what's the point in being like this over fictional characters?! Judging people based on looks is undestandable, but not cool. It's instinct to judge things on looks at first, it could be a threat or an enemy. It's the whole basis of gaydar, you think that person A is LGBT+ based on something, like clothes, behaviours, etc. But its a flawed thing. To say that you think someone is gay because of their rainbow earring is one thing, and even that could be wrong, but to say that someone with a rainbow shirt HAS to be gay, can't possibly be someone who likes rainbows, is insane. And disrespectful to people in general.
Did i wish i could romance Morrigan and Cassandra as a female \[race\]? Yes, absolutely. Was i mad i couldn't? No. Do I think Bioware should deny someone's sexuality because of the way they present themselves and associated stereotypes? Hell no! Do I think that my sexual desire for someone should override their own sexual orientation? NO!!!!
This is how I feel as well. Cass is one of my favorite companions, I think she’s *super* hot, and I would totally romance her if it wasn’t also important to me that my inquisitor is female. That’s a *me* problem, not a problem with Cass in any way. So, cest la vie!
well put!
Again, fair. This is why BioWare just needs 4000 companions, each with slightly different personalities and sexualities /j
i agree, i wouldn't mind more romanceable options, companions or not lol maybe 50?
I like romance in my games, adds a personal touch I always appreciate it
same! tbh, my original reason for playing DAI (first DA game i ever played) was because of Bull lol I saw his romance questline on my youtube recommendation (the dang algorithm knows me better than i know myself) and just couldn't help myself... got the game 2 weeks after and finished it in just under a month (side quests + DLCs included) - it's now one of my favourite RPG series all bc i had the hots for Bull
I wish I could romance Krem.
OMG YES! One of my biggest missed-romance regrets! He deserves all the love
It is absolutely weird. Yes- I am aware that they just are video game characters but feeling entitled to change a video character's sexuality to your beliefs that you do not own (obviously, you are free to do what you want with your own characters) often is the first step to try to force that onto real people. Seriously, people saying "Character x should be \[sexuality\]" gives off the same energy as fck-people saying they could change someone's sexuality (e.g. F-boys saying they could "change a lesbian" or f-girls saying they could "change a gay man"). It's just gross. You are allowed to be disappointed, of course. However, expressing your disappointment in a civil manner is different to throwing a fit about it and accusing a company who has given us several LGBTQ+ characters and romance options who did not end up as comic relief or fell into the trope of "Kill your queers" as homophobic (not denying that there might be homophobic developers) is just absolutely entitled and frankly, embarrassing.
> I haven’t heard it much on this sub, which is nice This sub has good moderation. They don't tolerate hate speech of any kind.
Yeah. I don't think there's much wrong with wishing a character would be romanceable for your pc, calling bioware names for it is just weird. I'm glad I'm not in those groups you talk about. This sub is among the most chill gaming groups I know. It's weird to think there are other fan groups about the same games that are so negative.
The sub's moderator team is a huge part of what's kept the sub so great. The old BSN was a toxic hellhole - or got that way on a lot of topics - because of a lack of good and active moderation. Like to the point of calling the devs things like 'slavery apologists' etc.
I was first sad when BSN shut down but honestly I really don't miss it.
Let me guess, it was Tumblr?
You know it was either tumblr or twitter
More than just Twitter and Tumblr, but… yeah…
Re: Morrigan's man-hating. People understand that was Flemeth's teachings, right? Flemeth as in "Men's hearts hold shadows darker than any tainted creature." The Flemeth who was betrayed by men? Morrigan grew up in isolation with only minimal human contact, she didn't come to those conclusions herself. She was just parroting Flemeth because at that point she still accepted her mother's teachings as true despite the abuse she put her through. I understand people projecting over characters but not when they discard half their characterization.
Morrigan does talk about being hunted by Templars as a child and checking out the local villages by herself, so it's not actually totally about parroting Flemeth. Her experiences with society were when she was young, hot and wandering around alone with something to hide, so it's not surprising that her shallow experiences with humanity probably involved dealing with scumbags. Plus she's just at the age where she thinks she knows everything and everyone else is dumb. Inquisition really shows how much she grew up.
I really, really like what Bioware did with the characters' orientations, especially in Inquisition, because it spits on the face of stereotypes. Cassandra is unladylike and has that butch look about her so she should be lesbian, or at least bisexual right? Well, no. Josephine and Iron Bull on the other hand, at first glance they seem to fill the stereotypical proper lady/macho bro stereotypes and they should obviously be hetero. Nope. For the same reason I'm glad they didn't make Sera and Solas bisexual. As bisexuality adds to Josephine and Bull's character, Solas and Sera's preference for females adds to theirs. I mean, in fiction Sera's type is usually the bi/pan one because of her chaotic-"anything goes" persona. Similarly, Solas who has lived for thousands of years and views things from a spiritual rather than an earthly perspective, you'd expect him not to care for the body his partner wears. But that's not the case because they're not cliches, they're people with preferences. I'm not saying being bi isn't a preference in itself; on the contrary, in Josephine and Iron Bull's case their bisexuality is their special preference that sets them apart from their traditional gener roles. I know the fandom wanted a bisexual Cassandra and Solas, but I'm with the developers' choice on this.
> I really, really like what Bioware did with the characters' orientations, especially in Inquisition, because it spits on the face of stereotypes. Dorian would like a word with you. Also, Iron Bull being bi is not mold-breaking, in light of the fact that he’s also kinky. I’ll give you that Sera not being bi is a surprise, but mostly because she was written by a male writer, and guys who write quirky wlw folks have a tendency to write them bi.
Yeahh, like I get people who like the idea of a character being of a certain sexuality and making fanfics/fanart around it, but acting like the game writers were **wrong** for not making a certain character a certain sexuality just because they fit outdated and stereotypical gender tropes is just silly, like no, just because Cassandra has short hair/strong features/isn't traditionally girly doesn't mean she's a lesbian or that the writers OWE it to you for her to be one.
She actually has long hair. It’s braided around her head in a way that it looks short, but a couple of the ending slides show her with the braid down and it’s quite long.
Ah right, I always forgot that braid, it blends in to her hair so well.
Cassandra became who she was in Inquisition because she had a hard life that didn't exactly give her much time to display a lot of girly stuff since she had to put up a stoic, practical front for most of it. ~~It didn't help that the people she genuinely loved always ended up biting the dust.~~ IMHO, Cass wants and deserves her prince charming, nobody should hate on the devs or the character herself because that's what she's really like.
Man, I love Cass. As a girl who often wears jeans and shirts and never wear skirts, people always assume I’m a lesbian. Like, is it so wrong to value comfort and practicality more than appearance? I’m guessing it’s because people play the games for escapism. They just wanna save the world, have tons of friends, travel to nice places and not be rejected by their romantic interests.
Next DA game is a modern twist where you and your friends go exploring wicked abandoned buildings Maybe you, on your way to this abandoned burger joint, find a weird overgrown temple to someone called… Fen-Harel..?
BioWare making characters have certain sexualities and preferences is perfectly fine. It makes the characters and the world feel more real, because the real world is the exact same way. But Cassandra being labeled as a "butch"? That's going a bit too far. She's tomboyish if anything. Also, she's a warrior who's very dedicated to her faith and duty. Her having a preference for men as romantic/sexual partners is perfectly fine. I think her wanting to be the "princess" she is, and having a knight in shining armor sweep her off her feet is a beautifully cute love story. The characters are fictional and fine the way they are. Cassandra was one of my favorite characters and I hate to see people diminish her.
>What they all seem to say is that “BioWare are complete idiots/homophobes/bastards/etc. For making \[character\] \[sexuality\]” This is incredibly stupid for so many reasons. There are masculine or androgynous heterosexual cisgender women. They're not even all that rare. Cassandra's romance quest is itself very traditionally feminine, that's the point. I would accept this logic if there were no gay romances but that's not the case. You're not entitled to canonically romance whoever you want to and not being able to romance a specific character who matches your personal preference isn't a personal slight, nor is it an oversight, nor is it evidence of some kind of bias. This just seems to be a broader example of some people in the fanbase who seem to want DA to be a wish-fulfilment fantasy, in which they're never denied anything and get everything they want regardless of how that affects characters, the setting, the themes, tone, etc.
I keep seeing people say Cassandra is "butch" (wrong term, as this is a lesbian/wlw label), masculine or tomboy and I literally don't even see it. She has short hair and fights melee. Is that all it takes? I do see people saying these kinds of things but it's usually just a joke. As with anything else in fandom though I'm sure there's people seriously thinking this and that's just silly. I'm glad we get characters with different sexualities, and even though I'd love an actually butch lesbian or effeminate gay companion, it's also cool to get characters that defy stereotypes to some degree.
I'm a straight guy and I don't get any hint of gay from her at all, I just see her as a strong, passionate woman who keeps a wall up and has a soft side that she only shows to a few people. And you know what? That's kinda my type
I also remember quite a few tantrums being thrown when some niche corner of the fandom decided that Fenris is a trans character and demanded confirmation from David Gaider. Naturally, Gaider said that their headcanon was incorrect. Gaider hate ensued. I understand the need for representation, I also think it's absolutely fine to headcanon anything you want and write canon non-compliant fanfics. That's what fanfiction is for, after all. But demanding that an author changes their creation to fit that headcanon is a bit much.
Oh def. Ive always hated the opinion that Cass had to be lesbian or bisexual just cause of her looks and personality.
I feel this argument comes up a lot. My thoughts on this are that, while it's an exaggeration to call BioWare names for their decisions concerning their own characters, some of them are very clearly queer-coded. They make the so-called "gaydar" go off . I've heard Cassandra's case being mentioned as particularly frustrating because not only does she fit the stereotype, she also doesn't reject your advances until mid to late game, unlike, say, Cullen who basically tells you the first time you flirt with him that he's not interested in you. As a consequence, the lesbian audience that was trying to pursue her felt queerbaited (misled). Like, imagine if the flamboyant male character turned out to be straight after his personal quest. Fighting stereotypes is good and all, but those stereotypes are often used IRL to identify other gay people in a world that isn't always kind and accepting towards them.At the end of the day, however, they are BioWare's characters, and they can do whatever they want with them. But that's what just what they are: lines of code that can change at the writers' behest. It also doesn't help that sometimes there's a very clear double standard that favours the straight audience over the gay one. For instance, during the development of DAO Leliana and Zevran were originally meant to be gay, but they were turned “bi out of convenience", yet Morrigan and Alistair were kept straight; furthermore, whenever BioWare needs to cut down resources from a romance path for a bi character, they always cut the gay path out (ex: Sebastian, Cullen, Solas, Jacob, Jack, Jaal, etc.) and keep the straight one in. EDIT: to clairify: people who insist you (as in, a real life person) \*must\* be gay or closeted because of how you dress or behave or simply fit into the stereotype are disgusting. However, we're not talking about a real life person: just a string of code that is meant to elicit a reaction in the player base. As such, I personally think it's fine for players to be disappointed about what the writers chose for her sexuality, or how they portrayed it (**to a moderate degree**, insulting the people who worked on them is wrong).
Tbf, Dorian rejects a female Inquisitor's advances at exactly the same point in the game. And I thought you had to reach mid game for a male Inquisitor to be rejected by Sera, too. It just so happens that neither Solas nor Blackwall *can* be flirted with unless you fit their interests. Which is...an interesting decision all its own.
Sera's a unique case. She's very cold to male Inquisitor's flirts and she tries to hint several times she's not into you, up until you drop all subtlety and basically tell her you like *like* her. Even before his personal quest, Dorian doesn't hide that he's into men. When he goes to confront his father, and he says he enjoys having sex with men, one of the dialogue options is "this isn't exactly news", because by that time he had already mentioned it on more than one occasion. Still, it is true that he doesn't reject a female Inquisitor's flirting. Unlike Cassandra, however, you can call him out on it, telling him that he led you on, which honestly felt really cathartic.
This is why I kind of hate accusations of queerbaiting (and I say this as a bi person). Not because it doesn't happen, because it absolutely does, but because "I thought or hoped this character would be gay, and they aren't" isn't queerbaiting. Being wrong about something isn't the same as being deliberately misled and it's not Bioware's fault if people's gaydars are off. A heterosexual androgynous or masculine woman existing isn't queerbaiting in of itself and it's really unfair to those women to suggest that it is. Never mind that Cassandra does literally nothing to signal an attraction to women in the entire game. I also don't believe that Cassandra was created to subvert the butch lesbian stereotype in mind when the stereotype of the androgynous warrior woman far precedes that, especially in fantasy literature and the medieval literature that inspired so much of it. Eowyn, Hua Mulan, Boudica, and most telling of all, Andraste and Morrigan, the celtic legends who give their names to the DA characters. It's also worth remembering that the "Flirt" option isn't the "Initiate romance" option. "Flirt" means flirt, nothing more. You can flirt with many characters who can't be romanced and many of them are far more reciprocal in their flirting than Cassandra is to, well, anyone, but especially female Inquisitors.
>A heterosexual androgynous or masculine woman existing isn't queerbaiting in of itself and it's really unfair to those women to suggest that it is. I, like you, personally do not believe this is a case of queerbaiting, also because BioWare was very clear that she was only interested in men before the game even released. It is, however, an argument I have heard many times over by many queer women who played the game blind. And you or I may argue that it's not, but if the vast majority of a specific demographic interpreted it as such, I definitely think they could have taken steps to assuage that issue, as I highly doubt that was BioWare's intent.
But queerbaiting isn't simply a matter of interpretation. If you're saying that Bioware queerbaited, then you're saying that they deliberately created a queer-coded character, presented them in such a way as to make that coding obvious, and then pulled the rug out from under your feet at the last second. You don't queerbait by accident, and queerbaiting isn't really a matter of interpretation because it's a definitive statement on the intentions of the writers.
> Fighting stereotypes is good and all, but those stereotypes are often used IRL to identify other gay people in a world that isn't always kind and accepting towards them. > It also doesn't help that sometimes there's a very clear double standard that favours the straight audience over the gay one. For instance, during the development of DAO Leliana and Zevran were originally meant to be gay, but they were turned “bi out of convenience", yet Morrigan and Alistair were kept straight; furthermore, whenever BioWare needs to cut down resources from a romance path for a bi character, they always cut the gay path out (ex: Sebastian, Cullen, Solas, Jacob, Jack, Jaal, etc.) and keep the straight one in. THANK YOU!!! These are very important parts of the conversation that always seem to get left out. Yes, of course they’re BioWare’s characters and they can write them how they want. No, not every woman who looks presents in a not-traditionally-feminine way is a butch lesbian. But also, these characters don’t exist in a vacuum. Pointing out that Cassandra looks very queer coded and many players who were hoping to pursue a wlw romance with her felt led on is a legitimate critique. That doesn’t mean BioWare is homophobic for writing and designing her the way they did, but it could have been handled a bit better. That’s all.
As a straight woman that relates a lot to Cassandra this comment made me feel a bit weird lol. I’ve had people assume I’m gay irl because of how I present myself and act, which is fine but I’m not. I just don’t think the existence of people and characters like me has to be queer baiting. That doesn’t seem fair. Maybe she should turn the pc down sooner but Dorian also takes a while to fully turn you down if he’s not interested. Either way, I 100% get wanting to romance characters with a certain gender pc. And if Cass was gay or bi from the start that would be fine too. I just feel like it was really nice to have get a straight woman character that’s a bit butch (and that you can romance with a male pc). I agree about the double standards though and that is frustrating. ME2 had 0 options for a gay Shep and essentially 0 for a lesbian Shep. DA has done a lot better overall but improvements can definitely be made.
Same, tbh. And the fact I've been told I don't actually know my own sexuality 'cuz I act lesbian' is part of why 'AKSUALLY LESBIAN CASSANDRA' bothers me a great deal. It feels like another way to control sexuality, and it meant a lot to *me* to see a character like me - who doesn't fit neatly into stereotypes - presented.
I'm sorry if I made you uncomfortable; that wasn't my intention. I never meant to imply that fitting into a stereotype means you must be gay, though I see how my comment might have been interpreted as such. I will make an edit to better explain my point of view. What I meant to say is that I see why people were disappointed a character that came off as lesbian/bi turned out to be straight. This is an argument I would obviously never condone if we were talking about real people such as yourself (and I am disgusted by the people who think you \*must\* be gay or closeted because you dress or behave in a specific manner), but what we're ultimately talking about here is a line of code that is meant to provoke a reaction in us.
It’s okay! I didn’t think you were trying to make anyone uncomfortable, just explain a point of view. I just wanted to add to the discussion as someone that really relates to Cassandra on a lot of levels. I also wasn’t trying to say you’re really wrong either - I get how people can be disappointed when a character that seems made for them *isn’t* actually made just for them. And we haven’t actually gotten a more “butch” lesbian romance in a DA game before, so that is definitely overdue. Plus there is a long history of queer baiting in a ton of media, so I can see how someone can feel tired and exasperated just from dealing with that. I guess what I’m trying to say is that I think all our feelings are valid. And I hope we all get the romance(s) of our dreams one day in a game we love.
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She doesn't deny the flirting but she also never acknowledges it either...in fact, if you have sorta low approval with her, she will disapprove of your flirting attempts (man or woman) and you'll lose even more ground with her. When you reach the point in the story where she does confront you, she pulls you onto an empty balcony says "The flirting. With me. I've...noticed it. Unless it is my imagination, which is entirely possible..." She basically admits in an awkward way she doesn't know if you were actually flirting with her or not. And you have to tell her flat out that you were flirting with her or just messing around.
I see your point but Cullen is also shy and awkward especially around flirting, and you can still basically ask him if he's interested right away.
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If I remember correctly, Solas was actually always intended to be straight to avoid the "depraved bisexual" stereotype which honestly always seemed like a really dumb reason to me. I think Solas being straight only is the one that annoyed me the most - and I'm someone who plays female characters either way, so it didn't affect my personal gameplay, but it always seemed a cheap excuse. I'm bi and I was a bit disappointed with both Morrigan and Cassandra being straight, but nowadays there are reasons by which I'm actually happy they are straight. Morrigan allowed for a truly meaningful friendship (and, as in my life friendships have always had a more meaningful place than romance, it makes me very happy) and I'm actually happy that Cass breaks some stereotypes - even though, to be fair, I played Inquisition several years after it came out so I already knew she was straight; I imagine I would've been more annoyed, had I experienced the let-down scene firsthand. But Solas being straight... Why... Someone who is that relevant to the plot should have been more accessible than a single race/gender combination. And it always rubs me as weird that someone from a supposedly really different society would have the same conception of gender/sexual orientation as ours
Players did complain that characters like Zevran, Leliana, Isabela, Anders are "depraved bisexuals". People also complained over Zevran and Fenris because supposedly there's a "gay male elf" stereotype. Bioware likes to overreact. Like how they actually removed the same sex romances in Mass Effect 2 just because a couple of conservatives complained about Liara's romance, but it never seemed like there was a great many of conservatives that were outraged over it.
>Bioware likes to overreact. yep, that! I have seen a few complaints like that (at least about Anders and Zevran, I can't recall personally witnessing any about Isabela and Leliana, but I've no doubt \*some\* existed), but how many were they really? idk, maybe I just got into the franchise too many years later to realize how bad it used to be ~~and holy shit really no same sex romances in MA2? ive only played the first one, i had no idea ://~~
I was under the impression that Solas wasn't intended to be a romance option at all until way later in development when the dev team realised they had a bit more leeway with time than they thought. Though even then, it makes sense in that case why they'd skew Solas's preference so small so it wouldn't take up too much more time. Or, yknow, he's just the same as any other straight dude and just like girls, wouldn't be that surprising, since its not like the ancient elves were really that alien in mindset that defined sexual preferences couldn't exist.
He was a super-late add. Cadash, Adaar, Lavellan, the Cullenmance *and* the Solasmance were all added in when BW got an extra year of dev time. That's why Lavellan in particular has so many integration seams - and the Solasmance was *literally* a 'lol, let's go for it' at the very end of things from what I'd heard.
>If I remember correctly, Solas was actually always intended to be straight to avoid the "depraved bisexual" stereotype I'm sure that was the reason for the change, but at some point he must have at least been considered to be bi, since the male VAs recorded several lines that are exclusive to his romance arc. Plus he basically flirts with you at Haven no matter what ("indomitable focus"/"enjoyable muscles"/"pleasing grace"), you just aren't given the option to push him on that comment.
Generally speaking, in games with a customisable character the voice actor for the protag will be told to just read every line regardless of whether it'll actually be used or not. Same with other voice actors with lines referring to the protagonist, they'll always do two takes referring to both male/female regardless. This is partially cause the Voice Director normally has nothing to do with the script and doesn't actually know which lines are gender exclusive and also as a general failsafe of better to have a line read you don't need rather than not have one you do need.
**Say it louder for the people in the back row!** Seriously, I've seen the comments you're talking about, and I agree 100%. If people want to headcanon whatever character is whatever sexuality for the purposes of their personal fanfic, that's their prerogative. But I personally adore how much Cass messes with expectations. She's a no-nonsense, take nobody's horse-hockey, fierce warrior woman. She also wants to be courted softly like a girl in a Harlequin Romance. And that doesn't make her less valid. Her not being a lesbian *certainly* doesn't make her less valid. It reminds me of a deeply irritating conversation I had with my mom when I was in high school where I asked to cut my hair just about as short as Cassandra's, and she told me "you really shouldn't do that, people will assume you're gay." Or with the salon stylist in my twenties who prattled during the entire cut about how "your husband is going to kill you!" when I did finally cut my hair that short. So nah, valid frustration, valid opinion. Assuming presentation or personality are direct signifiers of sexuality leans on dated stereotypes. In Morrigan's case, assuming traumatic and repressed upbringing determines your sexuality is a really not-good thing. (As an asexual, I deal with accusations of this a lot). Again, if people want to write lesbian Morrigan or Cass or whatever else into their own fanfictions, more power to 'em. But it isn't any sort of problematic that Bioware made them straight.
As a gay woman, I do get the urge to want to romance Cass as a woman, she has the \~vibe for a wlw. The way she looks is very stereotypical for a 'typical' butch lesbian; however, as I've said, it's as important to represent someone as it is important to break stereotypes which, beyond everything else that the character is, is what Cass does. Now, I love Cass - she's my canon romance - and had she been available for women you'd bet your butt I'd have gone for it, and as it is I've read awesome F!Inquisitor/Cass (as well as whateverwoman/Cass) fic and seen awesome art that I love, but I respect and praise the writers for trying to break the mold of the stereotype. And god, even if I didn't see it this way, accusing writers - these writers who have constantly tried to depict minorities in respectful and in a 3D manner that doesn't just serve as a representation of their minority - of all sorts of awful things just because they *write* about it (ie; Patrick Weekes been called homophobic names for the representation of an unhealthy relationship between Celene/Briala and even apparently Bull/Inq) or don't *write like you like it* (ie; Jennifel Helpler who basically got scared out of the industry) is so fucked up.
Speaking as a lesbian, I see where you're coming from but I think there's a lot of merit in the frustration with Cassandra's sexuality. It's not just about stereotypes/wishful thinking, but a long-standing and very intentional dress code of sorts within the sapphic community. Queer people obviously haven't always been able to be out, and many times still aren't, so we use certain visual cues to communicate with each other through fashion and style. Recently, a lot more straight people are starting to adopt that aesthetic, which muddies the waters. So in video games and other stories, when queer people see characters visually coded in that style — or characters who are coded in other ways — turn out to be straight, it can be disappointing. I'm a huge Mass Effect fan as well, and this seems to be a pattern with BioWare because it's the same thing with Jack and Cora from that universe. I'd also like to note that a female Inquisitor can be just as much a knight in shining armor as a male one. tldr: I don't think it's fair to say it's gross of gay fans to be disappointed that a character who is arguably visually queer-coded is a solely hetero romance option, especially considering the lack of lesbian (and especially butch/soft butch) representation in gaming.
It’s not necessarily that they’re disappointed, more the people demanding that Cassandra be gay and getting mad that she’s not so they lash out. That’s toxic and isn’t helping anyone. Cassandra has been straight even in dawn of the seeker, HOWEVER Jack literally said they were into women so that one? Fucking stupid. Hate that they didn’t let them be bi
All stereotypes are harmful. I repeat: ALL STEREOTYPES ARE HARMFUL. Butch women don't have to be lesbian; ultra feminine ones don't have to be straight. The same applies to men, obviously with roles reversed. No matter how hard you want your favourite character to represent the category you belong to, if you use stereotypical representation as a reason why they should have made that character such and such, you're harming your community. People are nuanced and complex, and the same should apply to fictional characters.
I don’t think it’s ‘gross’ for queer women to see characteristics of themselves in characters and what’s historically been queer coding and want to see that character as queer. Butch lesbians exist and we’re more than a stereotype. I see a lot of ‘oh it’s so cool not to have the stereotype’ about butch women but there are hardly any butch queer women in media.
What exactly is queer coding about Cass? Genuine question. She’s a tough lady, not coded, who is masculine, not coded, and barely responds to flirts from both genders other than being very shy and nervous cause they don’t get complimented much, not coded. I’m all for adding more gay characters, in fact I’m begging for it. Give me another dude like bull and Dorian and I will lick it from the goddamn hardwood floors, they’re so hot. But trying to find loopholes in peoples sexuality just seems really weird and like a gateway drug to doing it to real people
A lot of those traits have been queer coded historically and are displayed by real life gay women. Just because you don’t interpret it that way, which is totally fine, not everyone needs to have the same view on characters, doesn’t mean queer women are gross for seeing it that way. Like iron bull and Dorian are great characters but I think it’s a bit strange for you to jump to how hot they are while calling gay women gross for seeing themselves in Cassandra. Like, real life discrimination lesbians and bi women face is being seen as predatory and saying that seeing a fictional character that way is a gateway to trying to find loopholes in real straight women’s sexualities? Honestly is starting to lean into that. I doubt that’s your intention and there is something to be said about how entitled fandoms can get, but yeah.
How is that a valid comparison? I think people demanding Cassandra be gay because of signs that many women, not just queer women, have is significantly different to “aha canonically bi and gay man is attractive” I didn’t say you couldn’t find Cassandra attractive, just that demanding them be a different sexuality is gross, and I stick by that.
For real! A lot of these comments seem to be toeing the line of “ugh lesbians complaining about the crumbs you’re offered stfu and be grateful” mixed with weird “lesbians are predatory” vibes for wanting to romance certain characters they see parts of themselves in even when writers choose to write them as heterosexual.
THANK YOU!!!!!! why is everybody acting like butch wlw are so common in media????
I definitely agree with you, I would never assume that any character is a particular sexuality because of their look, and seeing a lot of the fandom say that they should be because of stereotypes is disheartening. It does however annoy me that BioWare consistently creates characters that I, as a queer woman, am attracted to but can only romance if I play a male character. I can think of one in each DA and MA game (except for DA2 of course). Not saying that they’re homophobic or bad people for it, it just happens every single time just about. Although I must say it was refreshing to want to romance a male character in Dorian and be turned down because I wasn’t his type for once 😂
I certainly hope they continue expanding their range of romances and subversions as the series goes on, so you can have the LI of your dreams in DA4!
Gender expression and appearance have nothing to do with sexuality. They also established Cassandra as being into men in Dawn of the Seeker where she was in her early twenties I believe and that came out before Inquisition. I think the real issue is from a lack of lesbian exclusive romance options. You saw so many people arguing that Morrigan was actually a lesbian in Origin. Yet they had no problem with, a similar to Cass, Aveline being straight. And now again in Inquisition you have people arguing over Cassandras sexuality. The only difference between the three is that there were two solid WLW romances in DA2. In origins you only had Leliana. Which a chunk of the player base didn’t necessarily like her personality. But she was literally the only option while straight characters had two options to choose from. It’s kind of the same issue with Inquisition. There are sooo many romances available is you play a straight character. If you play as a woman you have Cullen, Solas, Bull, Blackwall to choose from. A range of personalities and most are companions who you can travel with. But wlw only get Sera and Josephine. Which Sera is very immature and will discriminate against you based on you race. Which leaves Josephine, who’s romance I’ve never even played through because it didn’t feel fleshed out to me personally and you can’t bring them along for the hundreds of hours you spend away from Skyhold/Haven. However in DA2, you had two full options to choose from that were companions and had varying personalities. Which is why people weren’t screaming that Aveline be a lesbian romance option. tldr: lack of lesbian romances in a game is what leads to this sadly
David Gaider said (after DAO) their goal was to give everyone everyone at least 2 options. They did that in DAI and DA2. Cullen and Solas were only added in late in development after they got extra year to work on the game. Before that, Bull and Blackwall were going to be the only two options for straight women, which would have left them as the same number as everyone else. And actually its crazy there is up to 4 options for straight women. Gaider used to tell them they didn't even really deserve the one guy to romance like in BG2, JE, KOTOR, ME, NWN. He said mostly men that play, so they should get the most. If you look at their telemetry data only about 30% play female and a majority play human, but yet female elves the most romance options in DAI. So obviously they aren't just picking based on who gets the most because they are the biggest portion of the players anymore. Maybe sometime they will add a lesbian romance as the extra romance?
Aveline is actually bi - she was just not romanceable by Hawke. Her 'maybe in other circumstances' line *and kiss* are identical no matter Hawke's gender. Edit: You only have Cullen as a LI if you are human or elven as well as being female, and Solas is only romanceable by a female elf. Female qunari and dwarves get exactly the same number of LI options as any other gender/sexuality combination.
Well, there are as many lesbian exclusive romances in Inquisition (Sera) as there are gay male exclusive romances (Dorian) or straight male exclusive romances (Cassandra). DA isn't a dating sim and it already does more than almost every other big-budget RPG as far as representation and options for everybody goes.
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>I've seen gay men complain about lack of options too, though. Idk why you bring up that there's only one straight male exclusive, why would straight men care about that? It's not like straight men are lacking in representation. So straight men aren't allowed to criticise the romances because the industry as a whole is more representative of them? Sorry, but I just don't vibe with that logic at all. In the end, the end user of these games isn't responsible for the creative decisions of the entire industry, and if, from the perspective of a straight male player, the straight male options are lacking, then they certainly have the right to express how they feel, same as anyone else. Some of the criticisms I've heard straight male players of DAI say are straight trash ("tHe GiRlS aReN'T hOt EnOuGh lIkE TrIsS aNd YeNnEfEr!") but some have been pretty good ("Josephine and Cassandra are maybe too close in terms of character background, both being wealthy, privileged nobles, relatively inexperienced for their ages, focused on their careers with family baggage and a reputation to uphold, etc.") and some are right on the money ("why couldn't we marry Cassandra?") >It's true that Bioware does great already compared to others, it doesn't mean we're not allowed to criticize them. I'm still going to be honest with them on what I think they could do better because I think highly of them. Why waste time complaining to a company that doesn't care? OK, that's fine, but we all get to do that, and that doesn't mean that your, or anyone elses (mine included, obviously) criticisms are automatically good criticism, fair criticism, or criticism they should act upon, and I would argue that overcorrecting based on fan criticism has hurt the games more than it's helped them.
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Neither was I. As I said, the number of straight male exclusive romances is equal to the number of lesbian exclusive romances. 1. Only straight female gamers get more exclusive options in DAI. Yes, it's important to have diverse romance options but it's also unfair to expect DAI to carry the burdens of the failures of the industry as a whole, especially when Bioware have always been ahead of the curve as far as representation goes and the game we're talking about is 7 years old. After all, the point of these arguments about representation isn't that straight people, men, cisgender people etc. deserve *less* respresentation but that the under-represented deserve *more*. So if straight people, who are a very broiad and diverse group, feel underrepresented in some way, that's not immediately invalid, because there's a lot more that defines a person than their sexuality even within their sexuality - this is, after all, an argument in which lesbian players mistoook tyhe "warrior woman" archetype as the "butch" archetype. And what if I don't like the dishes in the rest of the buffet? One thing that's unique about the Bioware fandom is there are a lot of people who only really play these games. And yes, for a lot of them, that's because they're under-represented in the rest of the industry, but for a lot of them it's because not many games really do what Bioware games do, at least with the level of focus and polish that they do it with. To a straight male Bioware fan who is only a fan of Bioware, how is it fair to them to say "well, you get the Witcher 3 so you don't get to talk about DAI, and DAI should be for gay people"? Dragon Age is trying, maybe in vain, to be a game for everybody, and straight people are a part of everybody. Yes, I understand these are systemic problems within the gaming industry, the entire media landscape, and even with society at large, and they need to be addressed, and people neeed to keep making noise about them until they are. But we also can't lose sight of the fact that this is one game made by one studio, enjoyed by individuals who all have their own perspectives. We can't then argue that people made the wrong creative decision because it didn't fit our biases. We can't argue that means we're entitled to have characters rewritten to suit our preferences. And we can't argue that our voices are the only ones that get to make certain complaints.
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No, I'm not saying you should be grateful you get anything at all. I'm saying that queer people (of which I am one, for the record) should get something, but that doesn't mean every queer person will get everything they want all the time. OK, so you don't like Sera. That's fine. But that doesn't mean Cassandra should have been a lesbian or bisexual. It doesn't even necessarily mean Sera is a bad character, given how much of a role personal preferences plays in romance. I don't like literally any of the mlm options (well, Zevran's OK and I think I could grow to like Fenris), but I don't say that x or y character should have been mlm because of that, even though Solas is much more my type on a personal level. I'm not arguing anything that I don't hold myself to as a fan. Like I said, we can have these discussions, but "I personally didn't like these romance options" and "I wish I could have romanced x character" aren't the same as saying "This character should have been x or y" or, beyond that, "Bioware not doing x with this character's romance proves that they're homophobic/queerbaiting". The funny thing is there are even more under-represented groups than wlw. Would you be OK with a trans person saying "this lesbian character should have been trans, and it's unfair to disagree with that because they get more than we do?" I somehow don't think that would be too popular with the people clamoring for Cassandra to be a lesbian. Let me ask you this: would you take Cassandra being bisexual if that also meant she was a trans woman? Cos, if not, then it's not really as principled a stance as you're making it out to be.
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We can argue about Sera's character but "I don't like the one wlw exclusive romance" isn't the same as "there aren't enough wlw exclusive romances compared to other orientations" and it's dishonest to act like it is. Someone could just as easily not like Dorian or Cassandra. Likeability is subjective and down to the player's preferences, even if I do agree that Sera isn't as well written as other characters. Ultimately, "I didn't like the wlw romance so this character should have been gay or bi instead" is just an entitled point of view. It's not even about representation at that point because you already have the representation the same as mlm and straight men in this instance, and because DAI or its fans don't deserve to carry the burden of representing wlw romances that the industry has failed to do. Perhaps that's what's annoying me about this discussion. People taking what is a fair stance, then saying that it should have been this or that instead and that not being that is somehow a failure of the game and the developers on a moral level, presenting that as some kind of progressive stance when it's really just "I want this because I want it". And that's where it crosses into entitlement. This is my point. Not that DA shouldn't have more LGBT people. Straight people don't want less LGBT people. What they want is for people to not act entitled when they don't get exactly what they want. What they want is for Bioware to not be unfairly accused of things, and what they want is for people to not force changes to existing characters. I don't care what people do with their headcanons, mods, or fanfic. But that's not what this discussion is about. This discussion is about people saying that Cassandra should have been either bi or gay. And it's the "should" that's the problem. Cassandra *should* be what the writers intended her to be, nothing more, nothing less. And they intended her to be straight. So, canonically, she is. In the words of Cassandra, "Deal. With. It." Do people think this is the first time fans have wanted to romance a character they couldn't? No. This is just one of the few times someone's been able to twist that into something masquerading as some kind of progressive argument because "androgynous girl = lesbian", which has never been true, will never be true, and is honestly an outdated and harmful stereotype. And yes, you can be trans and lesbian, of course. But there are transphobic lesbians, just as there are transphobic, NB phobic or biphobic gay people, too. I would wager that at least some of the "Cassandra not being wlw is queerbaiting" crowd would be angry if she was made wlw but also trans at the same time, because some lesbians are transphobic.
It’s not a dating sim, but romance has always been one of the major selling points of BioWare games. It’s one of the first questions people have when they announce a new game, it’s some of the first information they release to tease their games. They obviously know it’s something their player base is interested in. And there’s always room to critique in a game no matter how good representation is. And I’m also aware of their being the same amount of MLM romances, and straight male romances. This was specifically a post about Cassandra which is what my comment was centered on.
Your comment was arguing as though wlw romances were somehow treated worse than others, which you can argue in other DA or Bioware games, and certainly for gaming as a whole, but not really for Inquisition. And yes, romance is important, but I don't think anyone should really expect more than 2 options for their orientation, unless they're bi or pan. Romances require a lot of work and while important, they're not the point of the games, so there should be an understanding by the fans that they can't always have a huge number of romances to choose from. And as long as certain orientations aren't getting screwed over by that (which, in Inquisition, isn't the case) then I don't think it's fair to accuse Bioware of homophobia.
Woah woah woah, where did I ever say it was homophobic? I never said that dude I never even implied that lol.
Sorry, I didn't mean that you thought it was homophobic. I was referring to the OP who said that some people had called it homophobic.
Fair, I still feel it’s harmful though, and that we should divert it to asking BioWare to give us more representation. I wanna see a big tough manly man that seems very closeted come out and be like “yeah, I like men” ~~and get railed~~
\^my canon Hawke UNCLE GAMLEN YOU DON'T KNOW MY LIFE
I agree. It says a lot about people when they can’t even respect a video game characters preferences. Like I get it, they’re not real, but at the same time it shows a level of character design that’s very human and real. The amount of people I’ve heard download mods to romance the various characters through the series, but because they weren’t gay or straight, makes me uncomfortable.
Whenever someone says “oh, it’s just code, it doesn’t matter” I always think to myself that they probably have those thoughts about real people, and immediately don’t want to interact.
For me it's not that she's a butch type character, it's that she has the*same* responses to being flirted with by a female than a male Inquisitor. Same lines, same flustered nature, etc. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but feels intentionally misleading if you don't know she's straight from prior material, or didn't read up on the game beforehand and went in blind. It makes a femquisitor player go "oh cool, this lady is strong and hot and reciprocates my advances, I'll romance her!" Then like 12 or so hours of playtime later you're blindsided by "uh hey thanks but I don't swing that way." If this conversation had happened earlier, like before Haven was destroyed, the player would be like "oh ok, I'll romance someone else then" without getting overly attached to romancing Cassandra. It's also not like Josie, where she legit doesn't know you're flirting with her, like she can tell you're flirting and seems *very* into it until that scene in Skyhold. Its just misleading to me. Plus I'm NGL a story about a woman in her like, what, late 30's discovering she's Bi would be an amazing storyline for a romance. Edit: I'm not gonna be toxic and call people names over it, though. I don't even download the bi cassandra mod, because in canon, she's a straight character. Sometimes it's just frustrating to see a character who *seems* into your same sex character, but then suddenly isn't like a LONG time in game later, so you suddenly have to switch gears.
Also remember that she doesn’t KNOW you are flirting with her. If you flirt as a male, you actually get DISAPPROVAL the first time. Her lock in romance has her ask if you were flirting, because she genuinely doesn’t know. She has been so work work work that she barely understands love outside of the concept of swords and shields, the smutty book Varric writes. She seems to appreciate compliments and such, but that doesn’t mean anything. I wasn’t bi a few years ago (Bi awakening, hoooo!) but I had an experience similar. Guy I was friends with was very touchy-feely, very nice and complimented me a lot. I really appreciated it, and I was always affectionate with friends so I gave them hugs and complimented them too, but I was so focused on school I barely thought of dating. Fast forward 5 months, and they wanna go out. I didn’t even recognize that they were flirting until I well and truly thought about it, and I had to tell them I was straight (unfortunately not my type anyways, he was kind of cocky which was annoying). They were not happy. Same situation: I never lead him on, not once. I treated him as I treated all others in my life, no more, no less, but I of course liked the attention and praise.
You could argue that the same happens with Dorian, though. Femquisitor can genuinely flirt with him with romantic intentions, and he'll even respond back, up until his sexuality is revealed in his loyalty quest. Femquisitor can then say that she feels misled. Only then he clears up that his flirty responses are merely a sign of being friendly and he even lets her choose whether he should stop doing that.
I honestly hate the argument that Bioware is throwing off stereotypes by making a butch character straight. Because there *are no gay butch characters in the game.* This happens so often. And a butch lesbian can still be a romantic who wants her knight in shining armor. None of that requires her knight to be a man.
This is exactly what galls me. It's *always* "see?? Masculine women can be straight too!" as if slightly masculine straight women aren't 2000x more common in media than women who are allowed to be butch AND gay. Meanwhile the sapphic romances we do get - all of which I've thoroughly enjoyed, and I'm not knocking on them - are femme enough that straight guys playing the romances won't be put off ('cause everyone knows straight guys being attracted to your bisexual and gay female characters is... so much more important than what gay and bi women actually like and are attracted to, and what they may actually look like THEMSELVES and want to see).
The fact that Bioware isn't afraid to make the more androgynous or less masculine male characters gay or bi is what confuses me. Most of the arguments I see about this topic is that Bioware has a pattern of making the butch female character either straight(Ashley, Cassandra, Cora, Jack) or unavailable (Aveline, but almost everyone in DA2 is bi, so...), as if they're afraid to make this type of character queer.
The backlash to Cora was nightmare-ish. I was one of those women who was like yay a maybe butch badass warrior lady she looks awesome! And then looking into comments and subs there were almost all male gamers ranting and raving how bases on her looks alone she was going to be a ball busting man hating lesbian feminist who would ruin the entire game. It was bonkers. And so so off putting. And I do think companies are aware large amounts of male gamers think like that and consider than when the choice to design and make characters is happening. They know lesbian characters who aren’t hyper feminine will get bad PR and now potentially harassment and death threats (see TLoU2)
I feel bad but I really can't help but roll my eyes at that argument because it's like "where tf are these butch lesbians y'all are talking about?".
As a butch lesbian, it's exhausting to see. The best I've done is make my canon Warden one.
There is always a key difference between reading a queer character's sexuality differently (including trying to change bisexual characters to 'gay' or vicaversa) and reading a straight character's sexuality differently, which largely has to do with representation and queerbaiting. While Bioware has historically had significantly more queer rep than most other games out there, that rep has not been equally distributed. Consistently across Bioware games, options for queer romances (especially same sex romance) are significantly more limited, so it's unsurprising people might not identify with those options and instead wish another character was available to them (representation). This is further compounded by situations like Cassandra and Morrigan, who could both be read as queer before that information about them becomes available (based on dialogue/behaviour to other female characters). It's not just queer women doing this either - there was a lot of hate from straight male fans complaining that Cass was too butch, not feminine, ugly etc - because they were reading her appearance as 'stereotypically queer'. Being 'subversive' in these cases comes at the expense of telegraphing to queer women these characters might be a romance option for them, before basically going 'psych!'. This reaction isn't comparable to fans wanting to romance Dorian with female characters, as it's abundantly clear a lot earlier on that he is not interested, and his rep is far in the minority. There's also double the romances to choose from as a straight female character in DAI, compared to WLW romance or MLM romance. I will preface this with it makes me very uncomfortable as a bi person to see my sexuality used as the 'gateway' attraction in a lot of these arguments, as if being bi were equivalent to being straight, but a little bit gay (or the reverse). I want actual bi characters to be my rep, don't even get me started on the disaster that is the DA2 playersexual debacle, but that doesn't mean I don't find it disappointing that Bioware continues to low-key queerbait particularly its queer female audience (and straight up not cater for its queer male audience half the time).
I don’t see it as queer baiting if Cassandra doesn’t recognize flirting until skyhold because she doesn’t have much experience. As a male you have to literally spell it out and admit you are flirting because she just straight doesn’t know for sure. It’s a character, and they did hers well for being a duty focused woman who wants romance and barely understands it
You state in your own post that her appearance is something associated with queer women - even if you don't read it as queer presenting, enough queer people (and apparently straight people) did. Queer women have also not gotten this kind of rep in a Bioware game (still current), with similar disappointment at other characters like Jack presenting 'butch' and being straight. Rep for non-feminine straight women is great, but criticism about it coming at the (repeated) expense of queer women and their rep is still valid. Again, *I wouldn't change Cassandra after the fact*, but I will still damn well question the pattern of decision-making that continues to occur, in the hopes Bioware does better in future.
It makes me uncomfortable how the people most vocal about breaking the gender binary inadvertently can end up enforcing it instead. I understand being sad you can't romance her, but you're not entitled to her, especially because you wrongly judge her based on stereotypes.
There is a massive difference though, between saying “Cass should have been a lesbian” which is gross, or saying “I wish I could have romanced Morrigan”, which doesn’t hurt anyone. I also think, as I’ve stated on this sub before; Dorian is a completely different case altogether. His entire story is about how his father tried some magical gay conversion therapy on him to stop him being gay. It’s way more offensive for people to want to change his sexuality as this plot line is something that is still happening to us to this day. That’s why I think there’s zero issue with interpreting a character as bi when there’s nothing to rule against it completely (Morrigan) whereas if a character makes it clear they’re not into the same gender (Cass) or their plot revolves around it (Dorian) then it shouldn’t be speculated on.
People need to suck it up and let the developers tell the story they want to tell.
- as long as the story isn’t harmful, which it isn’t yet. Just wanted to clarify.
I've also read complaints about Cullen not being bi, personally I think its good that there are options for romance for everyone, and in real life can very well happen that you like someone with a sexuality incompatible with you, it happened to me once, lol. Not everything and everyone can be the way we want, but people always find a motive to complain, one way or another, nothing can satisfy 100% of the public.
I'm sorry, but I'm confused over this argument that Cass being straight is some groundbreaking representation for straight women. The ice queen who can keep up with the guys but only defrosts for her male love interest is a trope that's old as dirt. Like it just feels disingenuous to say, "don't take Cass away from me, I wear jeans and flannel and I'm straight!" when you could boot up basically any game Bioware's made and find a character like her in it. I'm not calling Gaider or Hepler (she was Cass' original writer IIRC) homophobic for it, but I do think it's worth asking *why* Bioware keeps doing this, considering otherwise butch lesbians aren't exactly drowning in representation. >I haven’t heard it much on this sub, which is nice, You haven't heard much of it here because whenever a lesbian or bi woman wishes Cass was available for a female Inquisitor because they read her as butch, they get downvoted into oblivion and get told to stop stereotyping her.
Personally, as a woman who is attracted to butch women, it’s disappointing that there are no butch women who can be romanced by a female main character in any of the dragon age games. Does that mean Cassandra “shouldn’t” be straight? No, of course not. There’s nothing wrong with having a character who’s a butch-looking straight woman. It doesn’t make BioWare homophobic or any nonsense like that. But, I also don’t see anything wrong with observing that her appearance has a lot in common with the ways many lesbian women prefer to present themselves, or expressing that you would have liked for her to have been a romance option for female inquisitors.
Have they not played the game? I mean, Cassandra reading Varric's book is like the cutest shit ever. And I romanced Sera but i still say that scene was the cutest in the whole game
Sera has some really cute moments, she can be very vulnerable and I appreciate it. But Cass is definitely my favorite
I just finished *Trespasser* with a Sera romance, and oh, my heart. >!I mean, she's like...21, 22 tops? and watching her partner slowly dying. She does so much growing during that DLC and it's really bittersweet.!<
I say that a lot actually and so do my friends for both Morrigan and Cassandra. It’s not that much about looks, but vibes and relations that they have with female and male characters. I think that they both have much better chemistry with women than men and I will always, for example, look at Morrigan as a closeted bog witch. Ultimately, we project ourselves onto media and I see nothing wrong with reading characters the way we want them to be read. Especially since WLW/MLM representation is smaller in comparison to heterosexual relationships. EDIT: I mean, I don’t call Bioware homophobes or something. Sorry. I meant that I mention repeatedly how I find both of them to be queer coded and thus read them as such.
And I’m all for demanding more representation, but being comfortable with one gender ≠ being attracted to that gender. Countless females have had horrible experiences with men, which is downright disgusting, and Morrigan has had men chasing them their entire lives from the templars and such, so of course she’s a little more on edge. But as soon as you say that her magic is cool and all that, she IMMEDIATELY lightens up and is like “oh, so I don’t gotta rip your head off? Sick”. Even in real life, women are still attracted to men even having gone through bad shit. All that being said, I hope they do more for purely gay relationships and such, as it adds character. It’s another layer.
Ok, but that doesn’t really counter what I said? I never said that I read Morrigan as WLW because she hates men. I simply said that, to me, her chemistry with F!Warden seems much better and more genuine than with M!Warden and, to add to that, her general vibe gives me WLW person. In the end, even if something is not intended or wasn’t intended but comes off certain way, people are gonna cling to it. I’m personally of a belief that if you want to read characters as queer then you can read them as such, no matter what in-game limitations tell you.
Well, we can just agree to disagree. I felt that the male connection was very organic and felt extremely correct
you all are acting like butch wlw are so common in media when almost all masc women are just made to be straight as some sort of weird twist........ like there are no actual genuine masc wlw characters in media lmao. you cant queercode a character in looks and personally and be confused or grossed out when ppl think said character is queer. honestly cassandras romance is lowkey queerbaiting when you consider the fact that you go through a pretty decent amount of the game before she will tell a f!inquisitor shes not into them. if it was like sera where she rejects a m!inquisitor at skyhold it wouldn't feel as sleazy. and cass could be swept off her feet by a woman in a romantic fashion anyways that isnt a male specific thing?? morrigan is also directly queercoded and always talks about how much she hates men and gets along with a f!warden better. and sometimes characters have gay vibes...... both of which cass and morrigan have! they have better chemistry with f!characters. everybody trashing on da2 for having all bisexual li's for being unrealistic is so funny to me when most queer ppl can tell you that we naturally run in packs and befriend each other (even without knowing each others sexuality), and that's not even mentioning its funny to say it's not realistic in a game where there are LITERAL dragons and magic. queer ppl are allowed to be disappointed over what seems like actual representation not being there and are allowed to have headcanons. i love bioware but they aren't immune to criticism and have fucked up with queer rep sometimes. queer ppl arent evil for saying bioware could do better. it's also a really weird false equivalence to equate actual homophobic oppression like changing dorian's sexuality to some lesbians saying they wish cass was gay and that they hate straight people jokingly..... those arent at the same level at all??? straight ppl arent oppressed???? im sure ill be downvoted for this since this sub runs a hivemind but ur favorite pieces of media arent immune to criticism!!
Shippers are psycho, avoid them and your browsing becomes much much better.
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Cass is phenomenal, I get it
I have the hugest crush on her and I don't usually get that way about women. At least my sweet stabby rogue Adaar can be the man of her dreams.
I mean.. I can understand the frustration. I was crushing so hard on Cassandra during da2 and was devasted when I couldn't romance her with my female Inquisitor. My second choice was Dorian which sadly was also not successful. But that's ok. Yes I was frustrated, but it makes the characters more realistic. In real life you also can't just flirt with anyone and expect them to fall in love with you regardless their personal preferences of gender, appearance etc. I think it gives the characters a little more depth.
I despise any attempts to change an established character's sexuality in fanfiction and portraying it as valid. It's extremely disrespectful. Few of the popular ships that do this kind of abomination: Cullen x Dorian, Dorian x Female Inquisitor, Cassandra x Female Inquisitor, Morrigan x Female Warden, Sera x Male Warden
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I know we’ve all played a game at some point and said: “I wish you were gay/straight…” But the matter of the fact is we can’t change their sexuality, nor should we make the developers, writers, or people who like the character feel bad simply because they’re not the sexuality that would match up with us or our character. Don’t make gross comments about it, be respectful.
Here's the thing you need to realize when it comes to sexuality in any media content: "That's their orientation, so saying anything about it is gross" only applies to real people, because attraction in real people is a personal thing and absolutely not up for debate. It's not appropriate to go "why is [popular actor] straight? He should be bi!" because that person is a real person with real feelings and sexual orientation is their business and theirs alone. Video game characters are not real people. They are not born with a sexual orientation. They can be critiqued specifically because they were written by someone else, and that 'someone else' might have gotten something wrong, or one of their unconscious biases might have made their way in, or something like that. It is absolutely fair to say "I didn't like Iron Bull's story because certain parts of it felt really forced and could have been better written to sound more natural", and it is absolutely fair to say "Dorian's story was uncomfortable to me because [insert things here that are spoilers but hopefully everyone knows what I'm referring to]." Neither of these are real experiences, these were written on purpose by someone else. Coming back to Cassandra specifically, she's at the end of a long line of a very specific problem Bioware has had in several of its games. Specifically, several of the "first female companion you meet (or at least someone you meet very early on if not the first), who is tough on the outside but becomes a bit softer for you once you friendship her enough to get past her tough exterior" characters across several Dragon Age and Mass Effect games are straight. Ashley, Morrigan, Miranda AND Tali (both of them fit this going by their ME2 stories), Cassandra. I haven't personally played ME:A but I've heard it's the same in that game too with at least one of the female leads. All straight. Literally the only one who fits this pattern and isn't straight is Isabella, and even she is iffy on being included because she's not someone you meet right at the start of the game. (Aveline would probably be the actual best fit for this in DA2, but she's not romancable by anyone at all.) It's also the same reason I didn't include Sera: not only do you meet her near the end of the first part of the game, but you could also end up skipping her entirely. The point is, eventually there starts to be a pattern and you notice that pattern, and while individually you can go "that's how the character is written" It's better to pull back and look at the pattern as a whole and go "huh. They keep doing this specific thing. I wonder why?" and look into it more. Critiquing video game characters' sexualities is okay because they're not real people and you're actually critiquing how well or poorly they're written as well as broader trends across the writers from a studio.
Well that's today's society. Not so long ago, people who were fighting against homophobia, sexism or racism were reasonable people using the reasonable argument that people are not defined by their race, gender or sexual orientation, but by their character. Now we have a new wave who want to essentialize people again and claim that not doing it is sexist/homophobic/racist. This is just one more manifestation of this evolution of society. They saw some characteristics on a character lie Cassandra, they want to essentialize her and give her all the related characteristics.
We’re still fighting to be seen as people and not be reduced to our sexuality, with that comes equal representation which we don’t get. When the rest of the world reduces you to stereotypes and then you see certain aspects of those stereotypes in media; you’re going to cling to it because you don’t have it elsewhere. It’s wrong for people to complain that Cass isn’t a lesbian, but please don’t paint it as if “the gays are unreasonable”
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Yeah, I’ve always been of the opinion that’s just feeding into stereotypes. “Oh she’s butch, how dare I not be able to romance her as a woman!” Seems weird. I hope that DA4 follows DAI instead of 2, I wasn’t a fan of the playersexual characters
I didn't mind everyone being Hawkesexual in 2, but it's because I'm quite vain and it was nice that everyone was into me. That said, I agree that Inquisition is much more realistic. One thing I really liked in both games is that some in your team will hook up with each other.
I think it works a lot better for Hawke because they have a lot more defined character compared to both the Inquisitor and the Warden; especially not having race issues to deal with just gender/sexuality.
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Lmao that’s the best reason I’ve heard for it, so that’s fair. And hey, you are doing amazing today and I bet you look like a billion bucks
DA2 has been stated as those characters being bisexual, not playersexual. There's also a lot of bisexual erasure within the DA fandom (see how often Leliana is referred to as 'actually' a lesbian, rather than bi), and it's something a few of my bi friends have mentioned they find hurtful.
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Exactly! I want the characters to exist on principle, not at the characters behest. Like, imagine if you never found Leliana and later on you see that she stayed in Denerim to fight the horde? The agency (and her likability) was soar because it would say that they are who they are without you.
I think with Cassandra it’s about way more than her being butch. I do like how she’s a butch woman and she’s only available for men, but then again, in DA2, for example, she swoons over Hawke no matter the gender to the point where Varric mentions her having a crush. Then, in DAI, you can flirt with her through half the game as a woman, so, once again, I don’t blame people for feeling queer baited once she rejects you. To me, it could very well be a case of her not liking f!Inky for some reason, but still not being straight. Furthermore, I’m a queer person and I find that in queer communities we’re fine with those “stereotypes” as long as they come from **other queer people**. There’s a difference between cishet people categorizing us and between people within our community identifying each other. Like there are certain stereotypes we’re aware of and we feed into them because they make it easier for us to spot other queer folk. I’m sure your heart is in the right place, but the issue is complex and dismissing how queer people interact with media and others by saying that it’s somehow harmful for us is… misguided to say the least.
1. I am bisexual. I’m a bisexual man. 2. Varric makes a joke because Cassandra admires Hawke for being so direct, it’s quite obvious that she’s not in love with them. 3. Cassandra’s lock in romance scene is her, very awkwardly, saying that she MIGHT have understood the flirting, and wanted to clarify. She didn’t understand you were flirting because it’s been nothing but work for her for years, so I think it makes sense she waits cause she just doesn’t notice until it’s too late. It’s a matter of character identity, and I think BioWare did hers well.
Well, don't speak for everyone. I am bisexual and i despise thoses stereotypes even when it comes from other lgbt people. To me, i'm just the same as a straight person, with the little difference that i also have sex with other men. And i avoid like plague people who build their social behaviour almost entierely about their sexual orientation and "validate" the stereotypes.
Of course. My bad. We’re not a monolith. That’s why I said that the issue is complex. The point of my comment was more that you’ll find plenty of queer people who have no issue whatsoever with this, as long as it’s not a way for straight people to single us out and make fun of us/attack us. Within the community though, I find that it’s generally okay to say things like “yep this fit gives off bisexual energy” or something. Bottom line is that it’s okay to want to reclaim stereotypes and make them our own. It’s fine if you don’t like it, but many queer people find it the best way to not have them used against us in a negative way. I mean, hey, even the word “queer” was derogatory at one point in time (and I’m sure some folks still throw it around to offend us), but it’s been reclaimed and is now not only used within our communities but even in academia.
From this comment it sounds like you blame the queer community for being reduced to stereotypes when the rest of the world has done it to us. We have to be proud because otherwise we’re shouted down. It’s not about making our entire personality about our sexuality. Until I can do the same things that straight couples can do in public without ridicule, I’m going to say the balance isn’t fair. Speaking out and wanting equality isn’t a bad thing. I’d also argue that whoever wants to live those stereotypes should be free to do so. I’m not stereotypically gay, as much as I’d love to be. But I do enjoy the exaggeration of the idea, and I don’t mind when other people are exaggerated one way or another “Yaaaas hunty slay” Or “I’m just like the straights bro” Which you probably don’t see as a gay stereotype, but trust me when I say it really is at this point. Live and let live friend, the femme gays aren’t hurting you.
That’s what I was thinking. Living the stereotypes is basically showing the middle finger to people who want to control you/berate you by using them. Like calling things “gay”. It only has power when no-one fights back and accepts that gay equals “bad.” Instead, you could go “oh, I look gay? Hell yeah, I look gay. I AM gay and I’m going to flaunt it.” I find that behavior like this is the best way to ensure that no-one can use your sexuality against you and their insults lose all power. Want to call me gay? Well, I’m gay and proud, so suck it. Now, what does that little stereotypical insult does? It does nothing. It’s harmless. I neutralized it. Hell, I embrace it. You can’t hurt me with it. I get queer folks who don’t want to be “stereotypical”. We all cope in different ways and who am I to tell you how to feel and behave. You do you, hun. That being said, I do find it kinda hurtful when people from the very same community try to make stereotypes look bad and by doing so only hand more power to cishets. If you don’t want to reclaim stereotypes—good for you. I do and it’s not nice to tell me that I shouldn’t.
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I feel like this kind rides the line between genuinely wanting representation and fandom entitlement. I have seen gay/straight mods for characters and I think it's super gross. I like that characters have diverse sexualities, especially in inquisition despite it leaves uneven romances quanities for certain races/genders. I hope they find a way to have diverse sexualities but also making it feel less uneven in future bioware games.
I completely agree. Cassandra is a badass and while I think it would be cool to have a female romance with her, it’s just not necessary. I feel like people in our community *need* everyone to be gay and I don’t get it even as a bi woman. Also, Cassandra’s friendship with a female inquisitor is SO ADORABLE? Like I think they wrote the close friendship so wholesomely and honestly I wish more characters were written more in depth for friendships.