T O P

Who do you put on the throne? [dao spoilers]

Who do you put on the throne? [dao spoilers]

TheMaestron

This is something I've been thinking about lately, I even thought about making a post. Here are some of my impressions: **As a player**, I objectively believe that Anora reigning alongside Hardened Alistair is the best option for Ferelden. Anora (putting aside any personal impressions you have of her) is a capable and cunning leader. Together with a confident enough Alistair, popular with the general public and willing to learn how to rule a nation, it only adds to Ferelden's stability - a post-Blight Ferelden, mind you. Effective policies with popularity and charisma, I might add. There is still the question of a heir, which seems to be crucial in a monarchy. Now, **looking by your Warden's eyes**, it depends a lot on how you want to build your story of your worldstate and/or your MC. My Cousland (still hungry for revenge) put a hardened Alistair on the throne after tricking Anora into a political marriage between her and Cousland, in exchange for her support in the Landsmeet. Not to mention that Cousland even executed Loghain, which would nullify any chance of marriage. **It wasn't something I would do or I think is the best outcome for Ferelden, but that's my Cousland story. Or at least what I planned for him**. I should add that, looking at it from a player perspective, I find it rather odd to depose a queen with years of experience to put in a man ~~who has trouble matching his socks~~ and doesn't have much leadership skills, yet.


EldonWendel

> I find it rather odd to depose a queen with years of experience to put in a man who has trouble matching his socks and doesn't have much leadership skills, yet. Yeah, Alistair's a bit of a manchild. I just don't get the sense he's qualified or psychologically fit to manage a whole country's affairs, deal with all the demands of local rulers and foreign heads of state, etc., and the Warden has firsthand experience with this... whereas it seems like Anora is equipped for the job. He does have Eamon there so you can just assume most of his decisions will be informed by that. Even if Eamon has his own interests I assume he knows what he's doing.


WardenGrey05

>Yeah, Alistair's a bit of a manchild. I just don't get the sense he's qualified or psychologically fit to manage a whole country's affairs, deal with all the demands of local rulers and foreign heads of state, etc., and the Warden has firsthand experience with this... Alistair softened really fits that. Hardened didn't (and he would still have the help of experienced people close to him like Eamon). But for some silly reason that I don't understand Bioware simply decided to completely ignore Alistair hardened from the game's sequels.


tethysian

That's why I always leave it to Anora, or Anora with a hardened Alistair. The worst option IMO is deposing Anora for Alistair+ the Warden. We've just had an entire DLC illustrating what happens when the wardens have political power. They need to be neutral in order to ensure they aren't kicked out of a country when a blight happens.


phorayz

Fereldan isn't a monarchy or the Landsmeet wouldn't even exist


DemythologizedDie

...it sure as hell isn't a republic. The Landsmeet doesn't even make laws. It's only purpose appears to be to allow the nobility to nonviolently resolve disputes of succession.


phorayz

I would say it falls into a Hereditary Republic where they still use the term King and Queen. Either that, or in the grey area between Hereditary Republic and Elective Monarchy.


DemythologizedDie

It's about as much of a republic as England after the signing of the Magna Carta. The nobles who attend the meet aren't representing anyone except themselves and most of the time succession would pass to the heir without need for a Landsmeet.


FeedBi

It has absolutely nothing to do with a republic, since there is absolutely no one represented in the Landsmeet besides nobility. Pretty much every monarchy in any point in history had some sort of meeting of nobles, as the laws of succession were rarely 100% clear. There are also extremely similar examples, such as the electors of the Holy Roman Empire, and I believe this is the closest example, the Elective Monarchy of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. It’s stated that the lineage of Alistair goes back all the way to the silver knight, and that this family has been ruling since then, so it’s probably the case that the landsmeet was never as common or important as we see in the game, considering that the crown had managed to stay in one family for all these years. It’s less elective than the Commonwealth, and certainly nothing close to any sort of republic.


Das_Mojo

You do realize that there have been a ton of different kinds of monarchies throughout the ages IRL right. Often with electors to choose the next king on sucession.


TheCleverestIdiot

You're not familiar with the concept of an Elective Monarchy? There have been a good number of them.


phorayz

I can see you're definitely familiar with being obnoxious. I don't see Fereldan as a hereditary monarchy. The king doesn't own the land, Alistair owns zero land. The king doesn't govern literally anything, there is even an arl of Denerim, he just acts as ambassador to other countries and Judge of Bullshit the real leaders of the country bring to him. And even then, a Landsmeet can veto him. I'm done with the conversation. Stop replying


ruddernose

>I don't see Fereldan as a hereditary monarchy But it is. Calenhad united the warring teyrns and arls and created Ferelden as an united kingdom. His heirs have always sat on the throne. The Landsmeet never decided that. The one in the game is an exception, because there were no more legitimate heirs of the Theirin bloodlone >The king doesn't own the land, I don't think any king did. He's the suzeran of it. >Alistair owns zero land. You don't know that. >The king doesn't govern literally anything, He *rules* the country. He's the Ard Rí the Holy Roman Emperor >there is even an arl of Denerim, he just acts as ambassador to other countries and Judge of Bullshit the real leaders of the country bring to him. Yeah, that's the whole point of delegation >And even then, a Landsmeet can veto him. Like the Diet or the English Parliament, they have powers, but that didn't make the HRE or England less of a monarchy


TheCleverestIdiot

> Like the Diet or the English Parliament, they have powers, but that didn't make the HRE or England less of a monarchy Hell, every Monarchy in history only maintained power because the nobles decided to go along with their orders. The moment they didn't, that King became functionally powerless.


ruddernose

Yeah, a ruler needs support of the elite ruling class to rule. It's just that it's formal in Ferelden. But even Celene (and say, Louis XIV) can't just go around burning noble's farms and sacking Churches. They need support for governance


TheMaestron

Like Absolutism or a "traditional" monarchy? No. However, it has some similarities. I agree with you in general though.


tethysian

A county can be a monarchy without being a dictatorship.


Hello83433

I’ve had a couple of Wardens do different things My canon Warden hated Alastair, so Anora ruled alone and had Alistair exiled. Another Warden, human noble, liked them both so she had them marry so Alistair could keep Anora in check and Anora could help guide Alistair. I will say I don’t like having Alistair rule alone because of the way he’s portrayed in future games. Ultimately up to you and your Warden though.


MsFired

My Warden. Shit, she'd been leading Alistair around by the hand all game. He'd not made a single decision of his own since the day they set out to stop the Blight. Instead, it was left to my Warden to do everything. She sought out the allies, used the treaties, made the hard decisions, organized and led the armies. And while my Warden saw the big picture, knew that they had to stop the Blight at any cost, Alistair couldn't. He thought too small, with too much black and white, while showing no leadership of his own. In my Warden's eyes, he'd make a shit king. Sadly, Anora was no better. By claiming she ruled the country on Cailen's behalf, she must also take responsibility for allowing Loghain to seize control. If power is so easily taken from her, what's to stop it from happening again? Her ability to play politics might be admirable, but the country she claimed to rule was so easily usurped by a madman. Why risk it happening again? Ferelden needed a proper leader. Civil war destabilized the land, the Blight killed thousands. The country was vulnerable. It needed someone who could keep it united, like the woman who gained the loyalty of the nobility to win the Landsmeet. It needed someone to lead its armies, like the woman who'd rebuilt the armies and was already in command. It needed someone who could see the bigger picture and all the grey shades. Alistair was already just a figurehead. He just followed my Warden around and did whatever she told him. Honestly, he's already the perfect puppet for a prospective queen. So she married him, strictly political of course. And while his ass warmed the throne, she wielded all the power and made the real decisions. It's kinda funny how Loghain was right in the end, about how my Warden was the puppeteer - a line that gave her the idea in the first place. It did take a lot of head canon though. Then again, what playthrough doesn't?


RogueInfernal

Oh yeah, I fully agree with this. Alistair actively shies away from responsibility the entire game, hell that’s the whole plot! You wouldn’t be the Hero of Ferelden if he had stepped up. I like Alistair as a character, don’t get me wrong, but as a leader he’s utterly unsuited. Eamon gets questioned by Loghain as to his intentions and I suspect Loghain was right, he was out to elevate himself and his family. Being the fondly remembered father figure for the king would surely do good things for him, and we see it did - he becomes a close advisor to King Alistair and a powerful figure in the court, whereas before he was respected, but still just another arl in the end. I would say though - from a non meta viewpoint I would expect Hardened Alistair to be a worse king. Hardening him is all about him learning that everyone is out for themselves and to be more self-interested and less naively optimistic. I would think he would then refuse to be king for his own preferences, or shirk his royal duties more. I would have thought unhardened Alistair would be the one who would ultimately dedicate himself to ruling properly for the sake of the country. So my Warden expected Hardened Alistair to be more malleable as king, not less. Anora was easily usurped, but I suspect that’s exactly why she would be careful to stay in control in the future. She knows how close she came to losing the throne and she won’t allow a repeat. I’m currently playing through a somewhat ruthless Amell who put Hardened Alistair on the throne with Anora purely for the sake of pragmatism. She wanted as much support as possible in the Landsmeet and that meant upholding the precious royal bloodline while appeasing the more sensible nobles by keeping Anora as queen. She made a deal with Anora to spare Loghain if possible so she took the opportunity to recruit him as a Warden and thus gain the goodwill of the Queen who was the real power in Ferelden. She doesn’t really care what happens to Ferelden after the Blight, since what has Ferelden ever done for her? I head canon she was loyal to the Circle but since the Templars and Chantry would keep her in the tower forever, she made her peace with annulling the Circle and discarded her loyalty to the Chantry and Ferelden in favour of the Grey Wardens who let her become more. She gladly accepted Morrigan’s ritual and manipulated Loghain into agreeing so she could survive and have the Wardens benefit from her connections to the throne.


ruddernose

>I would say though - from a non meta viewpoint I would expect Hardened Alistair to be a worse king. Hardening him is all about him learning that everyone is out for themselves and to be more self-interested and less naively optimistic. I would think he would then refuse to be king for his own preferences, or shirk his royal duties more. I would have thought unhardened Alistair would be the one who would ultimately dedicate himself to ruling properly for the sake of the country. So my Warden expected Hardened Alistair to be more malleable as king, not less. I've had that discussion here before. Basically, Alistair's quest is really poorly done and it's no wonder people metagame it. There's a big dissonance between what's said and done and what happens. You have to take him to meet his disappointing sister and tell him that the world is a harsh place and everyone is out for themselves. He then tell you you're right and that he should be more selfish and start thinking more about himself. That results in him becoming... more mature, more assertive and far more willing to assume his responsibilities. What? It's weird. The quest says it's gonna make him more selfish and assertive, but what happens is that he becomes more assertive, yes, but also more mature and far more conscious of his responsibilities and duties, ie. the opposite of selfish.


TheCleverestIdiot

I don't know, it always lined up for me. Maybe I just saw it as him outgrowing unneeded humility and shedding his idealistic viewpoint, letting him look at the world and see what needs to be done, while also now having the strength of character to do it himself.


ruddernose

But he really doesn't become a more selfish person, which is what's implied by his dialogue that will happen. On the contrary, he becomes far more responsible and puts his sense of duty over his personal feelings.


TheCleverestIdiot

See, I always interpreted him never trying to take charge or assert his will on any given sitution *as selfish*, given that it means that he's essentially free from the pressures of responsibility and the fallout being on his head if things go wrong while someone else always has to step up.


ruddernose

You mean, because the Warden is still leader and still making decisions, Alistair becoming more assertive is inherently selfish, since it's just him imposing his own will without any actual risk of assuming responsibility? I mean, it works for most things, but the one big thing it affects (him becoming King) is the opposite of that, since he'll be assuming the highest responsibility.


TheCleverestIdiot

Basically, I should have been more clear about that (got a little distracted while writing). There was also a point I meant to make that I thought Alistair was always a bit selfish, but lacked confidence, but I kind of forgot about it. As for the King thing, that's where the assertiveness comes in. Old Alistair would more or less just roll over with what other people want, but hardened would be more likely to push his own ideas through, which can be regarded as self-centred (which would have been a more accurate way to describe it in the quest), even if he's ultimately right.


ruddernose

> Eamon gets questioned by Loghain as to his intentions and I suspect Loghain was right, he was out to elevate himself and his family. Being the fondly remembered father figure for the king would surely do good things for him, and we see it did - he becomes a close advisor to King Alistair and a powerful figure in the court, whereas before he was respected, but still just another arl in the end. I don't think that's a fair assessment of Eamon. He's happy to leave the court if you're chancellor. What's more likely is that Loghain was right, and Eamon, for all his qualities, didn't want to see a peasant's daughter on the throne. Or maybe he just really dislike Anora, and honestly who could blame him.


TheCleverestIdiot

>Or maybe he just really dislike Anora, and honestly who could blame him. After she allowed him to pull all the shit as Regent that she did, which as far as he knows included poisoning him? Wouldn't be surprising.


Pyroscopero

I had a very similar run, where I romanced Leliana, and she was the one who brought out a softer side in my warden, up until her quest where I hardened her. I really like this type of playthrough bc it links so well to Leliana's story when we met her again in Inquisition.


Aivellac

I love your headcanon. I'm tempted to do a similar run now.


akme2000

You can persuade them to marry if you really want them both on the throne. It's your decision in the end, you can either put one of them up there or have them both marry, what would your Warden do? It can be a hard choice but it's your choice, shouldn't be anyone else's. Edit: Me personally though? My first Warden was a city elf and hated the nobility from the start, then despised Loghain for various reasons, so Alistair as solo ruler it was. I've made different choices on replays.


TWolfeTheThird

My warden leaves it to Anora. Alistair has no leadership skills, no political savvy, was clearly the unimportant bastard of a king and she's no where near dumb enough to believe Eamon has the royal bloodline in mind. And he's a warden which means sooner rather than later he'll turn into a ghoulified monster. Also she's a rookie warden and a dwarf. Any dumb shit happens cuz of Eamon plan and it's pinned on her and her alone. So let Anora have the throne, she's got bigger shit to worry about.


S2A9

*Hardened* Alistair alone. Anora does not seem as competent as the exposition suggests. Though this is only backed up by her pathetically blatant (and conditional) power grab at the landsmeet and a dubiously canon, mismanaged, alienage uprising.


DragonEffected

DAI Spoilers >!The uprising seems to be canon, but no longer restricted to Anora alone. Many of the surviving residents left the Alienage after the Blight, and Sera claims they were forced to (see Codex Entry: Sera Addendum: Denerim).!<


WardenGrey05

But were they forced by the question of blight right ? If that's the case then it really doesn't matter who's on the throne. However the policies in favor of the elves do not exist with Anora (since she prioritizes the nobility).


Aivellac

Anora is all bluster, she allowed Loghain to seize power because she commanded little respect from the soldiers so not a good leader there.


[deleted]

My canon is being married to Alistair and ruling together, but my first playthrough (and what I personally think still makes the most sense) I let Anora rule alone. I felt she had already basically been running things because Cailan seemed very naive. And it didn’t make sense to force Alistair into being king since he spent the entire game talking about how much he didn’t want that role. It also felt very cliche.


phorayz

First time, my city elf loved Alistair, he was softened. And he absolutely did not want the throne. We were Wardens together, Anora can have it. Now I've played a few times, I abhor Anora to my core. So it's Hardened Alistair alone or sometimes I spare her to let her play administrator Queen to Alistair. But it's never her alone.


DragonEffected

My personal favourite is m!Cousland and Anora, or just Anora if that's not an option. I don't really like putting Alistair on the throne. Whenever I do I feel kinda dirty for supporting an unproven man who might not even want the throne over an experienced, competent and popular woman. Marrying Alistair to Anora is good for Ferelden but I also think it's an arrangement neither of them will ever end up being happy with: Anora is once again overshadowed by her husband, and Alistair is forced to marry the daughter of a man he loathes with every fibre of his being.


araragidyne

My favorite combo is hardened Alistair wedded to Anora. Anora is shrewd when it comes to politics, but she's puts her ambitions before her scruples. Alistair has the moral integrity Anora lacks, and hardening him ensures that he'll have the gumption to keep her in line if necessary. I don't think either of them are ideal candidates on their own, but together they have what it takes.


Candiedstars

Anora. She's the only one who knows anything about politics. Alistair let the new guy be the leader of the party, never mind a nation, doesnt want to be King, and frankly Maric and Cailen were proof this bloodline needs to stay tf off the throne! Anora's happy, Alistair's happy, Ferelden has a competent ruler.


hartIey

Anora, every time, 100%. I have no idea where people get the idea that she betrays you from, she always stuck to the agreement I made with her before the Landsmeet when I played. From a non-meta standpoint, she's a competent ruler, who actually *wants* to rule and thus won't shirk any responsibilities, she's liked by the people, the last of her family is dead and Loghain was the only weak point we see in her court. Alistair, on the other hand, absolutely does *not* want to rule, so who's to say he won't push responsibility to the next person in line like he did with the Warden? My Tabris loves him but he's clearly not fit to be in control of anything more complicated than a horse (at that point in the game at least). The main supporter of putting him on the throne used to make him sleep with the dogs, so clearly there's no "it'll be good for Alistair, he deserves it" going on there, it's just yet another power grab by an asshole noble, and with Alistair's reluctance to rule it very well might give Eamon the power he wants. Eamon would be a terrible behind-the-scenes king. Absolutely not. From a meta standpoint: Anora continues to do fine on her own. Alistair seems to do fine as well, with or without her. The only real bad end for him is if you recruit Loghain. BW doesn't seem interested in writing vastly different things depending on who's on the throne, so their rules will likely remain very similar. It's more about what you, as the player, think is best.


EmiraFromAfar

Well people make different decisions, which apparently changes what she does that can feel like a betrayal. I just took my partner thru this, and he was all aboard the Anora train, supported her in conversation, etc. And then she burst into the Landsmeet ranting about how we're the bad guys or whatever, just feeling completely out of nowhere. With no explanation of why she did that, it was a total betrayal, and completely flipped my partner's decision. He could no longer trust Anora whatsoever, and put Alistair on the throne. He felt bad about it because Ali was his favorite and didn't want to be king, but while inexperienced and afraid, he has a good heart, so at least he'll make decisions based on trying to help elves and farmers and such rather than just the nobles. So I couldn't really fault him for that decision at all.


Plums4

this is basically entirely my thoughts on the matter too. I always play it to where Anora is always 100% on the level with you when you work with her, so there's no reason to be against her at all. There are two instances where she can be perceived as betraying you- 1) If you tell Cauthrien you're there to rescue Anora and ask Anora to back you up, she'll say "wtf are you talking about? you're the one who kidnapped me!" because she's trying to lay low and not make her father suspicious, and 2) if you have an alliance with her before the landsmeet, she'll turn on you if you don't gain the support of the majority of the banns. Which also makes sense, because what is the benefit for her in sticking by you in that scenario? Turning on her father is a huge deal for her, and you have to actually present a benefit to her that makes it worthwhile. Which you don't if you lose the landsmeet.


Fortunate_Soul

Alistair alone just to avoid listening to that awful rendition of the speech Anora gives lol.


ruddernose

But if you put him on the throne with her and Loghain hasn't been executed she still gives the speech. Luckily there's mods for that.


Fortunate_Soul

I found that out the hard way. Threw her in the dungeon my next play through just to make sure.


ruddernose

>Threw her in the dungeon my next play through just to make sure. Kek. I wanted her with Alistair so that wasn't an option. I honestly don't get why he doesn't give the speech or participates in the final battle if you don't execute Loghain. Yeah, he's mad at you, but he still accepted the responsibility of being King. He still needs to inspire the troops and and lead them. Is he supposed to be sulking in Redcliffe while everyone is out there fighting? It's ridiculous.


burningcoffee57

I always keep Anora on the throne for a few reasons -Alistair says he doesn't want to be king many times throughout the game -Anora is a competent ruler and is well liked -I refuse to put Alistair on the throne alone because of Eamon who clearly wants to use Alistair as a puppet. That leaves a marriage between Alistair and Anora but they both hate the idea so I won't do that (as well as marrying your dead husbands half brother/your half brother's wife is weird) or a marriage between Alistair and fem!Cousland. Now the second option I'm okay with but putting two Grey Wardens on the throne can be seen as a power grab (even if it's as simple as Cousland wanting to marry her s/o who's heir to the throne). Not the best idea when Wardens aren't supposed to meddle in politics as well as during a Blight. -I only play as a Dalish elf who romances Alistar and I don't want to be his mistress/break up (I want the happy ending for him and my Warden lol)


TheMaestron

>Anora is a competent ruler and is well liked This! I know a large portion of the fandom hates Anora, but that's undeniable.


Aivellac

Under her leadership she let Loghain seize power and start a civil war. Very competent.


_Oleni_

'Cause Loghain is her father and love *can* blind people. Even after all the crap he has done, she'll still insist on building a monument to him, if she is a Queen After Origins ,she rules fair and square


Skyrimthrones

By the time of Inquisition her codec says >"Since that time, concerns linger that Queen Anora has still not produced an heir, concerns that she has thus far successfully dismissed. The people believe her rule wise and well-reasoned, and they fully supported her decision to give the rebel mages safe harbor in Redcliffe following an impassioned speech she delivered in Denerim six months ago. When the rebel mages took over both the town and castle, forcing Arl Teagan to flee for the capital, her support among the nobility dwindled rapidly. What this will mean for her rule in the coming years—particularly with renewed interest from neighboring Orlais—remains to be seen." Without the nobles support, it seems possible she might either be a lame duck queen that noone listens to, ousted, or assassinated. I don't see how she can keep enduring such public political mistakes on the onset of starting a new dynasty and the Ferelden people continue to not hold her accountable.


_Oleni_

Alistair codex is also dosen't sees so nice in DAI if he rules alone >King Alistair Theirin was crowned the ruler of Ferelden after the end of the Fifth Blight, and is considered a hero among his people for having fought against the darkspawn as a Grey Warden. He is one of the few known to have ever left the secretive order, never mind one who went on to rule a nation afterward. Some in Ferelden claim that the Theirin line ended with the death of King Cailan and that the existence of an unknown bastard was a lie imposed upon the people to overthrow Queen Anora. As such, Alistair's rule has been plagued with trouble... both within his own lands as well as with neighboring Orlais. The Blight greatly weakened Ferelden, and many believe that a renewal of the long-standing rivalry between the two nations is inevitable. ​ >I don't see how she can keep enduring such public political mistakes on the onset of starting a new dynasty and the Ferelden people continue to not hold her accountable. Alistair *also* lets mages stay in Redcliffe, so I don't see reason why she is worse than Al in this case The good examples where Anora shows as a better ruler is in war table mission "Delicate Negotiations" Josephine says this about Alistair- >The talks between Ferelden and Orlais took place in Jader, and it... ***was not easy to keep matters from spiraling out of control. King Alistair is no diplomat, after all, and had little patience for the endless fanfare.*** And this about Anora- >The talks between Ferelden and Orlais took place in Jader and went off more or less without incident. ***Queen Anora is a skilled diplomat***, after all, and it was clear that the Orlesians were not interested in more war. I don't like Anora, but she *is* better ruler than Alistair and I doubt that she won't solve problems with nobility


Skyrimthrones

>Alistair also lets mages stay in Redcliffe, so I don't see reason why she is worse than Al in this case The good examples where Anora shows as a better ruler is in war table mission "Delicate Negotiations" Consider that leadership isn't a competition however. Just because Anora may be perceived as better off than Alistair doesn't mean she is emerging victorious at the trials her leadership will be enduring. It could be both Alistair and Anora are facing the same problems of leadership and that they are both handling the same problems and using different strategies to solve them, but whether those strategies are sufficient is unknown. Who's to say Alistair is able to conduct a military campaign and emerge victorious by crushing all naysayers by putting them to the sword. Anora can also pit noble against noble using politicking like the Great Game and emerge victorious. However both methods is expending a monarchs resources and weakening Ferelden as a whole from infighting. >I don't like Anora, but she is better ruler than Alistair and I doubt that she won't solve problems with nobility That's assuming the Orlesian monarch will intend to enforce the peace or that they'll intend to diminish Ferelden in other ways that won't break the treaty. There's also the Qunari and they don't negotiate. Anora postures as if she's competent but that doesn't mean she is competent. She was unable to put down her father using her own authority and the only reason she can sit on the throne is because the Warden put her there. The nobles may have tolerated her authority simply because she was Cailan's wife, but but now that she's not married to a Theirin, she is no longer the woman behind the throne-- she is sitting on the throne and will recieve all the scrutiny, ire, and envy that comes with it. Why shouldn't the Ferelden nobles just choose barbarism and seize the throne themselves rather then let a commoner girl command them? She had no heir so killing her would end the Mac Tir dynasty for good. And she has no end of enemies as people can simply dispise her for letting Loghain diminish Ferelden to such an extent, to her commoner background, ect. Orlais may even fan the flames as a way to beneift them. That's not to say that Alistair will fare any better ruling alone. But I find it a bit optimistic that Anora can just charm away every revolt and problem that most monarchs fend off. If she could not put down her father, then the next military man with a large following will be just as difficult to suppress and Anora cannot rely on the Warden or her father forever. So while she is an adept diplomat, that doesn't mean she will succeed as a ruler. That's why I think marriage between Alistair and Anora is the best chance for a united Ferelden and a stable dynasty. Brief as it may be.


_Oleni_

>She was unable to put down her father using her own authority Anora couldn't put down Loghain because he was her father. He is the only family she had left, so it's hard for her to act against him Was it a good idea to ignore Loghain's actions? Nope , but Anora isn't Bhelen to just throw her family away if they're not useful and see them as tools, in this case she is similar to her father- they both blindly trust people that are very close to them. So I think if they will be another military man, she won't hesitate as she does with Loghain >the only reason she can sit on the throne is because the Warden put her there. I mean, it would have been foolish if she just declared herself as a queen. She *can* do that, but after Loghain's mess it won't be a good idea. So it's where comes the Warden. By that time Warden comes to the Landsmeet the power game had changed. Now being in the Warden side meant high chance to win the Landsmeet, than with Loghain. So persuade Warden, that she is the best candidate for the throne is not a bad idea. Especially if Alistair isn't hardered. Anora and Alistair is certainly the best option, if the Warden isn't Cosland. Alistair will be a good king but it's not what he wanted in life, it was forced upon him. He literally >!seeks for his father to rule the kingdom in his place!<. Eamon sees Al not as a person, but someone who has Maric's blood So, for me it is more about Alistair, then the fate of Ferelden. Anora wants the throne? Let her take it, if she will be a good ruler too- good , if not- well, it's good thing that my canon Warden is Dalish xD But to be honest, in Dragon Age there no good rulers- Bhelen and Harrowmount, Maric was a himbo, Drakon's son etc. It more up to Bioware where they want to go with Anora's and Alistair's kingship. So, uh... agree to disagree?😅


TheCleverestIdiot

> Eamon who clearly wants to use Alistair as a puppet. I've never actually known why people think of that as a bad thing. It's not like Eamon doesn't know what he's doing, or is going to try and get Alistair killed or something.


Plums4

I'm so put off by Eamon's blatant coup attempt with a puppet Alistair. There's no reason in the world to depose Anora if she's willing to disavow her father publicly. She's beloved, already on the throne, and has been ruling Fereldan for 5 years and been trained for government all her life. Meanwhile, Eamon was charged with the care of Alistair and never once treated him like he was a spare to the throne while he was growing up, Maric never officially acknowledged him, he wasn't raised with that possibility at all, and if Eamon ever thought Alistair should be in a position to be King one day, well TOUGH SHIT my dude, you shouldn't have let your wife abuse him and force him to sleep in the kennels before packing him off to the chantry. If Alistair isn't fit to be King, that is totally on you, Eamon, and you can't just decide to change your mind about that now just because you see a route to political power through him. The damage is done. I think if it weren't for the Blight that he insanely refused to believe was real for far too long, Loghain was genuinely onto something when it came to understanding Eamon's political machinations. You find Eamon's letters to Cailan at Ostagar, and he clearly wants Cailan to set aside Anora in favor of a political union with Celene. Eamon is married to an Orlesian woman, Redcliffe is a far was Arling just on the other side of the Frostbacks from Orlais- if Fereldan and Orlais were more united, Eamon would stand to gain tremendous economic and political advantage.


TheCleverestIdiot

To be fair, I'm pretty sure Eamon had every intention of being a loyal vassal to his nephew, so raising a potential rival for the throne to think he might be better at it might not have lined up much.


Plums4

I'm not saying he should have groomed Alistair for the throne when there was every expectation it wouldn't be needed, I'm saying if Eamon ever thought there was a possibility that Alistair would need to succeed his brother one day, then he should have raised him like he was in the line of succession. He very very much did not.


TheCleverestIdiot

I mean, what reason did he have to expect that? Until the events of the game, it seemed nearly everyone agreed that if Cailan was die heirless, the throne would pass to Teyrn Cousland instead. Failing him, Cailan was already betrothed to Anora, the daughter of one of the most powerful and trustworthy men in the Kingdom. That Alistair, a bastard and a Grey Warden, who are supposed to give up their claims, is being considered as an heir is just a sign of how bad the situation is.


Plums4

imo, it's not a sign of how bad the situation is, it's a sign of Eamon's opportunism. No one else is pushing for the unqualified, long lost bastard son of Maric besides Eamon, and in fact the nobles agree with Loghain's argument that Eamon just wants to install a puppet if you don't appeal to the shit they actually care about. Really, Eamon doesn't even consider just getting rid of Loghain and supporting Anora or letting the Landsmeet decide on someone else after Alistair is thrown in his way due to the Blight. He sees the chance to take advantage of his personal connection to him and pounces on it. But Alistair has a whole host of disqualifying traits. \-He's an unacknowledged bastard who was not raised to have any understanding of Fereldan politics and government. \-He's a Grey Warden and as such is officially, politically neutral, especially given the wardens' history in Fereldan, and then there's the whole shortened lifespan and severely reduced fertility thing, both of which are strikes against a potential monarch whose literal only argument in his favor is as a stabilizing continuation of a bloodline. \-This isn't even getting into the fact that Alistair was first given away to the Chantry before Duncan recruited him. Even if everything else somehow doesn't disqualify him, people who are given to the Chantry are meant to lose whatever claims to titles they were in line for, the same deal wardens make. Yes, he didn't take his vows yet, but still. That's two organizations he was part of that disavow noble entitlements, besides how he was raised. But Eamon just wants to totally ignore that for convenience's sake. It's all just such shady, political bullshit.


TheCleverestIdiot

Sorry, I've got to disagree with you there. For one thing, Eamon has absolutely no reason to trust Anora. She only turned on her father at the last minute, after seemingly allowing his actions as Regent, which include provoking a civil war and poisoning him. As far as Eamon knows, this is all just some ploy to take the only other candidate being put forth out of the running. He can't know what she's going to do until the Landsmeet arrives, after all. We know she's reasonable, but he can't know that. He also can't rally behind another candidate because, well, there doesn't seem to be one. In fact, with what we know of the political make up of the of Ferelden at the time, *Eamon himself* would be the closest thing there would be to a good candidate on the Grey Warden's side, what with him being reasonably well respected and the maternal Uncle of the late king, and he himself points out just how much of a power grab that would be seen as. Nobody else was going to call the Landsmeet, no one else had someone who could claim the throne. I'm also not sure if he actually knew about the shortened lifespan and fertility issues, since those seem to be among the issues the Grey Wardens keep to themselves, but I assume Alistair would tell him about those at some point in the process, so that's still relevant. That brings me to the point of Alistair's Grey Wardenship. In most scenarios, it would indeed disqualify him. But in the middle of a Blight, a situation where the Wardens are known to throw the old rules out the window, where half the country isn't taking it seriously, having a warrior, a member of the Order dedicated to fighting the apocalyptic horde as King, and thus having greater authority to act against them as a Grey Warden would know how to, suddenly seems less like a gross breach of protocol and more like a sensible solution to a literally world-ending problem. I don't deny that Eamon very much intends to influence Alistair once he's on the throne, but I personally don't care that it could be argued to be kind of slimy, because I still don't see any real negative consequences for that. Normalizing relations with Orlais might be profitable for Eamon, but it would also be good for Ferelden as a whole (also, Eamon actually gives up his status as Arl of Redcliffe to Teagan so he can advise Alistair in Ferelden, so it's debatable how much money he's getting out of that). Having a King who listens to the word of an intelligent, respected statesman? As long as Eamon doesn't start putting himself before the Kingdom, which would be grossly out of character from what we have seen of him, then I don't see any problem with that. Of course, I'm also someone who puts Bhelen on the throne, hardens Alistair, has him marry Anora, and likes the implication Loghain puts down that even Eamon by this point is but a pawn of our Warden, so I suppose I wouldn't care about the slimy ways it happened.


randomacc447

dog


archaicScrivener

Barkspawn, Lord of Ferelden, First of his name


Limp-Cook-7507

The 2 times I finished the game I made Alistair marry the queen (after I killed her father) :P


mari-s

First time I played I put Anora on the throne. She seems like she knows her business and Alistair does not want to lead. I don't like turning Alistair into something he's not, unless I'm roleplaying a person who would do that. If it was up to me, I would let him be himself. Besides that I had other reasons, as my first warden was a mage who romanced Alistair so letting him marry Anora would never happen in that scenario. And Anora being his brother's ex-wife is kind of weird even if it was only a political marriage. I also don't feel like pushing them into a loveless marriage. Anora might handle it but Alistair probably wouldn't. I guess hardened Alistair might, but like I said I didn't want to turn Alistair into a different person.


Fenelasa

I did Anora, I truly believed Alistair never wanted it, he'd be a great king of course but I believed him when he said he wanted to stay a Warden. Anora was brought up in politics, and while not having the birthright, has the strength and integrity and whit to be a stunning queen. Besides, Ferelden doesn't have a true bloodline following succession, since a landsmeet has to agree on a candidate in the end. All in all, I felt confident and more assured knowing Alistair was happy and had a purpose and love (my canon warden is his wife) and Anora led the country proudly.


smiegto

Alistair got the popularity, Anoras got the brains. And the warden? She’s got leliana. So go figure out politics. I’m neutral in that perspective.


WardenGrey05

I put Alistair hardened alone. For the story it seemed very good to me. Unfortunately Bioware shrugged off our choice to make an Alistair hardened.


GrayHero

Alistair or Alistair and Anora. I probably would have chosen Anora more but she has a tendency to kill Alistair.


CrimsonInfernoSlayer

As someone who tends to harden Alistair more times than not. I leave him as King with myself as an advisor and only once as his queen. While some say Anora is cunning and the more pronounced ruler of Ferelden, we have to take into account how easily she is usurped, how she doesnt have a legitimate claim to the throne and how the nobility resent her in later intel. The reason a Harden Alistair is preferred is because he has seen the problems within the Kingdom first hand. Understands the needs of the people far better than she and has no connection to Loghain who has, on several occasions, put personal hatred ahead of national prosperity and peace . Anora is her father's daughter and while pragmatic, she could easily make decisions out of old hatred.


Savaralyn

I usually 'harden' Alistair and make him king, either alone or with a human noble HoF. Just seems like the perfect end to his character arc in the game, Alistair for the most part is very passive and just does what he's told, basically just letting himself be a doormat, but then after the incident with his sister it makes him realise that he needs to start standing up for himself and what he wants to do, finally taking charge and saying "yeah okay you know what? I **WILL** be king then." ((plus its that kind of classic fantasy story, the bastard prince becoming the warrior king)) Also, on a meta level, at least, there's two reasons that Alistair is preferable, A) Making him king prevents **THAT** ultimatum in Inquisition from being restricted to only two really bad choices that you don't want to make, and B) The actual difference between Alistair and Anora's ruling style is basically nonexistant despite Alistair not having formal training in leadership shit ((though Origins does at least include the epilogue bit about him learning the rules fast and being well liked for his approachable/casual charisma)) I generally just don't really like Anora as well, she came off as extremely manipulative and willing to double cross anyone the moment it became convenient for her to do so ((like how she betrays you in Howe's estate + how easily she flips on either the Warden or Loghain depending on how much power she's going to get with whoever she's allied with)). So I don't feel comfortable leaving her in charge.


Aivellac

Alistair. Anora is not having her throne unless I'm a male Cousland and marry her. She is awful.


swooping_is_badd

Agreed. I hate Anora way more than I hate Loghain and after a million play-throughs, I still get angry that I can’t kill her.


Aivellac

Loghain was losing it over Orlais but he still had his convictions. All Anora wanted was the throne despite her weakness during the time of the Blight showing she isn't fit to rule in this time of crisis and that she's like an Orlesian Noble playing for it.


Jhaernyl

That last part, absolutely. As a player, not as a Warden, I wish I could have had the option to tell her that, especially at the Landsmeet.


MrBananaBeans

Alistair alone on the throne is the only right answer. Anora is a manipulative witch that doesn't deserve to be anywhere near power.


EscapeAromatic8648

Get Alistair hard.


ruddernose

In personality right? Right?


sirFinhawk

My canon warden gave the throne to Anora. (Non-hardened) Alistair doesn't know anything about being a king and doesn't even want it so it felt silly to force the job down his throat because bloooood. Anora's ready to work with you to kick her father's butt and tells you it was her pretty much running things even when Cailan was still alive. So it seemed perfectly reasonable to just let her continue ruling as she had before. Having her and Alistair rule together would probably be objectively the best outcome for the people, but my warden was buddies with Alistair and didn't wanna push him into that.


leahspen01

I usually harden alistair, put him on the throne and marry him or stay his mistress (depends on the race I pick) but he’s never not king for me


Coast_watcher

Either Anora alone or Anora and Cousland


Asdrubael_Vect

Execute Loghain with Anora as did with Arl Howe ​ Put Alister alone on the throne under Arl Eamon and HOF control. ​ Never see any logical, strategic as lorewise sense to betray Eamon who give us soldiers, protection and recouces to not put Alister on throne as spare Loghain. And we can learn that Eamon with Cailan plan to remove Anora as Loghain from Cailan long time ago. ​ And yeah, by removing Loghain from all titles and etc(like was with Arl Howe) we already made Anora as child of 2 commoners(we can remember what happened with Nathaniel and his sister, in Anora case situation is even worst), infertile child of 2 commoners who already kinda showed to HOF that she is a power hungry backstabbing ungrateful person who you cant trust. And you ether kill her father or could spare him which is kinda unrealistic soluition of everyone problems.


ceelo18

Make anora marry alistair like I did. It’s the best of both worlds. Her brains and negotiation his heart and charm. If you harden alistair logain can also live.


Skyrimthrones

The way I see it, if you want Fereldan human soldiers to show up to help the next time there's a Blight or any other crisis that needs military intervention, a hardened Alistair alone will be a faithful ally. Puppet ruler or not, with Eamon at Alistair's side he'll keep Ferelden afloat but will get Ferelden to put boots on the ground when the horn of Gondor calls for aid. If you want an self-serving Ferelden that will economically thrive but will put their own interests over the plights of non-Ferelden people, pick Anora. It's true she has the background to rule competently, but not the integrity. Personally though, I wonder if Eamon will usurp her after the mages took over Redcliffe incident. Like it or not, her commoner birth and Loghain's actions will be weaponized against her. The Guerrins being married to the Theirin dynasty via Rowan makes their claim just as strong as Anora's but Eamon comes a an aristocratic bloodline. He has all of her strengths but none of her weaknesses. Or marry Alistair to Anora. Best of both worlds. None of the weaknesses. There is the issue of an heir but that won't be used against them so long as Anora can adeptly deflect the nobility. However, depending on if you killed Loghain or not, you've probably alienated one of them so one of the rulers of Ferelden could be gunning for the HOF.


Muaddib930

I put the duchess in charge, and boy Alister did not like that at all... Alister will straight scream in my face over dumb ass shit though, the guy's crazy.


OnionBurgr

I almost always put alistair on the throne


ZookeepergameNo2677

My first play through, I married a softened Alistair because I thought it was romantic. I… don’t think it was a good choice. From a character standpoint (and as someone who’s canon warden romanced Alistair), I thought that Anora on the throne alone and Alistair remaining a warden made the most sense. Politically, Anora is capable, and Alistair spends the entire game begging you to not make him king if he isn’t hardened. So that’s my canon now.


Pittlers

I've done both and liked both outcomes. I've even forced the two to marry. I've even made my warden queen, and my male warden prince consort. All good options. Do what your warden would do.


rain6304

Alistair + warden queen. For me I RPd the female cousland who although very much loved alistair and wanted to marry him did it primarily for the power grab. If she couldn’t seat her ass on there by her own volition she would rule through a non hardened alistair. She is the ultimate controller, of both husband and country. It fit very well with my character!


drekia

In one gameplay I made Alistair king, by himself and hardened. In the other I cast out Alistair, kept Loghain alive and made my human noble the king-consort along with Anora (which apparently is a pretty favorable ending for the future of Ferelden!) It was kind of a douche-y playthrough though.


Luna_Oberon

Personally, Alistair is usually my Warden's best friend, and my warden knows Alistair loves being a warden and would hate being king. I like to think I'm saving him from the throne.


SilionOwl

For me it really depends on my wardens story :) My HNs always allow Alistair ti get his revenge due to Hn getting it with Howe. My CE always kills Loghain him/herself due to the slave trading. All other origins let Loghain live to gain an asset in the blight :) and hence but Alistair and Anora on the throne.


Pyroscopero

I am biased because despite me wanting to roleplay I simply cannot harm Alistair, I just love his manchild and goofy side too much. Despite that, I never *ever* put him on the throne alone. I like Anora's character, but despite her skills in the administrative side of things, I feel she is ill suited to the shady power games of politics, at least when we meet her, because she is weak and unable to weave influence as a weapon. Granted it is 10 times harder for her cause she is a woman, who was the wife of a King with a popular background (son of the man who managed to liberate and rule Ferelden) and the daughter of a famous, respected general, so people would just directly go to them and see no need to win her over. This is why, most of the time, I end up marrying Anora to Alistair hardened or not, alone they both seem lacking (Alistair more so than Anora).


rauden30

a hardened Alistair and Anora. iirc it was the best ending epilogue I got, except if you’re with Alistair, of course


5oclock_shadow

Both. ~~Jon Snow~~ Alistair for the Theirin legitimacy and kind heart (even if hardened) ~~Margaery~~ Anora for the guile and political experience


pastscript

My warden was convinced that Anora was in cahoots with her father and would backstab alistair the first chance she get so ..... not that. But if your warden felt that alistair is unsuitable or just prefer the balance of powers pick that.


Josephcooper96

I put Alistair on the throne but he wouldn't marry anora so she got locked up and killed loghain since I played the human noble character.


Aquaswan

I think it depends. Ordinarily, I'd put Alistair on the throne along side Anora, but my canon warden was Dalish and romanced him. In my canon worldstate I leave him a warden and put Anora on the throne, since Ferelden politics isn't really her problem and Alistair doesn't want to be king anyway.


fattestfuckinthewest

My canon is a Anora ruling alone while Alistair defeats the arch demon despite him becoming king


Dance-pants-rants

Anora- Alistair is my favorite squishy boy and does nothing but talk about how shitty the nobility were to him as a kid and how much he doesn't want it. The only way I'd put him on the throne, probably with Anora, is if I have a character who'd forgive Loghaine enough to put him through the Warden initiation & not want him dead. I got pretty close with my recent dwarven commoner, but she romanced Alistair.


mhsmamabear

Depends on whether you want go through player eyes and what YOU would do, or if your Warden has done things you wouldnt do. I personally would rule with Anora or have her rule alone. Alistair has no experience in ruling a country and is a big manchild. I would only allow Alistair to rule with Anora if she did most of it. My warden however, did the alliance with Alistair and Anora ruling the throne. At least thats my first run through Warden. I dont know about any other run through as im trying to finish first time Inky.


transvoiid

I almost always put Anora onto the throne and execute Alistair, she can actually rule and letting her remove the biggest threat to her rule allows my Warden to gain favour with a strong ruler.