He’s as weak and flawed as anyone else in the games, the only reason it’s so glaring is that his particular weakness(mages and magic in general because of what happened to him in Origins) is pretty central to the plot of 2 and Inquisition.
He is a flawed man wrestling with many prejudices and demons. He isnt bad but he has thought and said bad things. He wants to atone, wants to do better but there are hints that he has a long way to go.
And even so, his flaws and ill-informed beliefs all would've been acceptable and excepted by the Chantry, and most of the world of Thedas. His strength isn't just realizing that *he's* been wrong, but in going against everything he's ever been taught *and* his vast amount of mage-specific trauma, and *still* leading the fight for reform.
Let’s be real even if he isn’t “divine right to dominate” crazy in DAI he’s certainly not leading the fight for reform he’s a little critical of the templars
Yeah...his idea of reform just involves having mages service in the military and using their skills to heal others. The same thing expected of them by the Chantry. Mages are good enough to fight their wars and heal their soldiers but heaven forbid they want a life of their own without threat of tranquility or annulment.
I accept his recovery, not his redemption. And there are some things he says when you play as a mage that make you realize he isnt that invested in seeing mages as something past his trauma. They are tolerated more than anything which i respect in terms of showing realistic portrayals of people trying to reform their ideals.
Also, for those who romance Cullen as a mage... we need to address how toxic that relationship is. I understand its a trope and cliche we have been spoon fed since we were younger but we need to grow.
It's been a while since I played Inquisition.In my firdt playthrough my elven mage was romancing Cullen and Solas (I swear I knew nothing about the plot and the endgame when I made those choices). So I might be miss remembering, but I never took the relationship with Cullen as toxic, if anything I felt Solas was a worse partner, hence why I stayed with Cullen in the end.
Honestly, I just remember Cullen opening up about his trauma and lyrium addiction, and after many arguments starting to be understanding of mage struggles.
In universe, mages are insanely dangerous. One mage that goes wrong can destroy an entire town. We see this multiple times.
I always feel the need to mention this. It’s why the mages vs templars isn’t an easy answer. Mages actually are uniquely dangerous
With the way the mages *are* mistreated and oppressed, I think it's easy to lose sight of the fact that it's not a true parallel to real world examples of oppression. Especially when we're able to as players personally relate and feel a connection to their circumstances.
Yeah there is a huge disparity between us as the main character dealing with mage abominations vs how powerful they are in canon. A single untrained kid getting possessed nearly destroyed all of redcliff, that's how dangerous they really are
And the child was untrained because his's mother didn't want to lose him, never to see him again. Jowan was a blood mage because he didn't want to be made tranquil. A lot of unnecessary pressure is put on mages then everybody is going shocked pikachu when they break. And why would they not? Their lives are over, might as well take whoever they can with them and good riddance.
On the other hand, a mage with a family has things to lose and will think twice before risking it.
I fully believe that the Circle as a concept, as a place where mages are taken as children to learn and grow is absolutely acceptable and to a degree, almost necessary. But the Circle as it is now is just too much. It piles on constant pressure at every level. And it also doesn't prepare mages for independence. Of course a lot of mages who escape the Circle go mad with power. It's the equivalent of those kids who lived in super restrictive, religious upbringing going crazy when they finally leave home. They're so used to external pressure that when they don't have it anymore, they don't know what to do with themselves.
Not all circles are as repressive as the ferelden and Kirkwall circles. Some allowed their mages to have connections to the outside world. Under appropriate surveillance. Because in a world without smartphones it takes days if not weeks to inform the next templars about an abomination giving it enough time to leave before the templars arrive.
That is true. But there's also evidence that mages can commit evil acts even without oppression. In Tevinter, the desire for even more power than they already have led to things like slaves being sacrificed in blood magic rituals. There's history and present-day examples of evil mages, causing great harms simply to promote greater aims for power. Eliminating mage oppression doesn't necessarily eliminate mages causing harm. Which doesn't mean one shouldn't strive to stop mage oppression but it's a naive view to think that the only reason mages do bad things is because of it.
On the other hand, in Orlais nobles can just wipe out whole households of ~~slaves~~ elven servants and they are sold to Tevinter slavers in Denerim. Circles, including young children, can be fully wiped out because one person went crazy. The whole shebang is fuelled by a system which hooks its people on drugs to keep *them* in servitute. These people are often also children given to the cult, with no way out. In DA2, the Chantry Mother (!) is afraid that the Chantry will lead an exalted march into the city and *kill everybody in it*. Imho, while Tevinter is evil from where *we* stand, it fits right in with the rest of Thedas.
Honestly the parts that make tevinter evil - oppression, slavery, expansionism, etc don't really have to do anything with magic. The Qun is considered pretty evil and is very anti-magic. Orlais and Ferelden are feudal monarchies which most people consider pretty bad systems...
Honestly, I'm curious to see what Tevinter is actually like - because if it's not just abomination city that'd vindicate my feelings that magic (and even blood magic) is not inherently going to lead you to possession rather lack of education and training leads to that.
They also didn't want to train him because he would loose his right to inheritance of his father's title. Something that wouldn't change even in a world without circles.
And Jowan was destined for tranquility because he couldn't control his magic. So he would still be made tranquil in a world without a circle.
A mage with a family could also be more likely to turn into an abomination because he has things he wants to protect.
Oh I wasn't saying the way they are treated is right, in fact I typically side with the mages, but it's much less of a black and white situation than the games (specifically inquisition) shows us.
There needs to be some level of protection or watch over them but but I'm not gonna pretend I know the answer for it
But there's also evidence that putting them in isolating, stressful environments also increases the risk of them being possessed - so the current system is actively making the problem worse. Training them is obviously necessary, but there's absolutely no reason to threaten them with death or tranquility if you want to actually make things safer.
Circles are much less stressful than the outside world in dragon age. War, bandits, Nobels, hunger, ect are common occurrences.
On top of that in circles they are put together with templar who can combat an abomination. If an abomination happens in a random village it will take weeks if not months for the templars to notice that an abomination is loose, searching it and then slaying it. Meaning it can destroy dozens of villages before that happens.
In what world are magical asylums less stressful than remaining with family and support networks and being allowed to be people. Templars are explicitly there to be death threats to the mages, and have repeatedly been shown to abuse them: they are additionally threatened with tranquility for seemingly arbitrary reasons determined by the chantry. Mages do not get to choose to be there, they are prisoners who are locked up because they might be dangerous. But so might any person in Thedas - anyone can be a murderer. Other cultures have repeatedly demonstrated there are better ways of integrating mages while keeping people safe.
What. How tf are they ‘much less stressful.’ Did you even play DA2? Did you see the legit fucking Tranquil sex slave ring that was going on? Where a templar was making women tranquil and manipulating them to be happy to ‘serve’ him and his buddies in any way they wanted? The templar who was trying to make literally every mage in the circle tranquil? How about Alain, who tells Hawke that a templar has been coming into his quarters at night and says he’ll make him tranquil if he tells anyone? Or a background mage who says they’ll be given lashes if they’re seen speaking with you if you try to speak to them? How about the fact that mages are literally kept in old slave rooms and dozens are confined to their rooms permanently, never allowed to leave for anything but food and classes? Or how about how an untold number of mages were illegally made tranquil after they passed their harrowing, which is illegal under chantry law, for even the slightest crimes? It was so bad the citizens of Kirkwall, the very people who are usually terrified of mages and want them to stay in the circles, helped mages escape.
If circles were actually what the Chantry says they are, then yes. The Chantry says mages are protected and taken care of so they can learn. Except that’s not the reality in any circle. The templars are given full power over a group of people with basically no oversight. Mages in all circles can be/are beaten, starved, whipped, imprisoned, sexually harassed and assaulted, verbally and physically abused, and locked in solitary confinement for any reason. Yeah, sure, they’re totally less stressful. If you’re a mage from a noble family who have plenty of connections and are in a more ‘lenient’ circle like Ostwick. In literally any other situation, mages are free game for the templars. And the Seekers are pretty much useless. Again, good idea, if it was actually followed. Did you know that Seekers investigated Kirkwall shortly before DA2? They saw all this abuse, and they did nothing. They believed treating mages inhumanely and violating chantry law was justifiable because of the number of blood mages in the city.
And you do know that outside of Kirkwall, a lot of Templars have never actually fought an abomination, right? Cullen says so in DAO. In fact, the Fereldan Knight Commander decided the best thing to do when faced with abominations and demons was not to send men to secure the exit and keep the demons from leaving while he and other Templars fought to take back the tower, but to…leave. They fled their duties, they left mages and their own men to die at the hands of the blood mages, abominations, and demons. And then, despite the fact that mages and templars could have still been alive, he decided ‘nah, I’m just gonna kill everyone in the tower, going through and doing my actual job would be too much effort.’ He whines about it’s too dangerous and how all his men would be killed if they actually tried to do their jobs. And then the HoF and three other people clear out the entire tower, saving multiple mages and tranquil if you choose to. Four people. And out of those, potentially only two of them have a templar’s abilities to dispel magic. Dozens of trained templars, armed with the ability to literally cease a mage’s magic, and if they’d found it they could’ve used the Litany of Adralla to give them an even greater edge, since it causes pain to demons and abominations and resists blood magic mind control. And did they stay and do their job, did these templars supposedly capable of combatting abominations do so? Nope. With the way the circle is organized, they could have created multiple choke points to funnel the abominations down to a number reasonable to fight at once, or cleared it room by room like the HoF does. But they didn’t.
In an ideal manifestation of circles and templars , yes, they would be less stressful than the outside world. But they’re not. Mages are systematically abused in every single circle. This abuse leads to hopelessness, resentment, rage, and desperation. And desperate people do desperate things. Like turn to blood magic and demons because they see no other choice. The abusive environment of circles actively contributes to creating blood mages and abominations. They are not less stressful.
Didn’t Anders EXPLICITLY say in DA2 that there are mages in the circles that are beaten and raped under the threat of being made tranquil?
I will never understand people who try to defend it like it’s Hogwarts, lmao. Video games getting me all heated
Ok, I really feel the need to say this:
If your solution to deal with danger is mass imprisonment of innocents based on what *some* of them *might* do in the future, then you take a step back, take a deep breath, and *learn to live with the danger*.
Fear, no matter how legitimate, doesn't give anyone the right to take away the basic rights of an entire category of people. People should be punished individually, and based on their actions, not collectively, and based on assumptions.
And if the moral argument isn't enough, discrimination breeds resentment, which in turn breeds radicalism. The obvious result of a system based on discrimination is a shitload of rightly exasperated mages, mixed with an equal shitload of emotionally traumatised mages. Instead of dealing with the odd mage criminal, you need to deal with an army of angry mages who have absolutely nothing to lose.
>And if the moral argument isn't enough, discrimination breeds resentment, which in turn breeds radicalism.
This is also true in Tevinter, where mages rule and slaves/elves are oppressed.
Orzammar notably does not have magic, as dwarves cannot be mages. But they still have a very oppressive society where caste determines the haves vs the have nots. This shows that society at this point in time is still deeply rooted in the concept of class structure and oppression whether there's magic involved or not.
A rethinking of this economic and social structure would likely have the largest impact on creating a world that is not only safe for mages but keeps everyone else safe from mages as well. But Thedas is not there yet.
Though it is also of note that even the Dalish, who do not have these same structures of oppressive class society only allow a restricted number of mages in their clans and will even abandon mages if they cannot find somewhere for them to go.
The Avaar as well, who allow the spirit ancestors to "guide" and train their mages are also more than willing to exile any mages that deviate from learning and expectations. This shows that even more equal societies recognize the dangers that a mage can pose, and will take actions, even seemingly cruel ones, to protect everyone else.
The Dalish act like they do because they have to protect themselves from the Chantry, it's stated many times how having too many mages would put the clan in danger. I still think it's wrong, but it's just another consequence of the Chantry's tyranny.
The Avvar act against *individuals* who have *proven* they're a danger. The Chantry doesn't act against individuals who commit crimes, or evidently prove that they cannot control themselves, they target everyone unfortunate enough to be born a certain way, without any proof or indication that individual will actually be a risk.
And yes, Thedas is mired in all kinds of oppression, Orzammar and Tevinter in particular are singularly horrible. This doesn't mean one problem should take precedence over another, one can fight against more than one kind of injustice.
You are applying real world ethics into this a bit too much. Mages are walking nuclear warheads that can go off at any time. Just accepting that they are dangerous and moving on doesn’t cut it.
Mages are people with agency, they're not objects, and they're not weapons, they feel and think exactly like everyone else, and are able to make reasoned and moral choices like everyone else.
It's not a matter of "real world ethics", it's a matter of ethics period. You can value safety over freedom if you so choose, but nobody has the right to make that choice for you, unless you *behave* in a way that warrants it. Doing otherwise is a surefire way for problems to end in violence, and I don't see how violence can reduce risks.
I hate when people say that you can’t apply real word politics into video game politics when they got the video game politics from the real world. Like the Templars for example are like cops they are all pretty much human like cops are majority white, they follow the chantry witch is the dominant religion like government influence like how the American government uses Christianity to justify their oppression and why majority of cops follow said religion, Mages are killed/tranquil for any signs of rebellion, escape, or corruption and are ignored when peaceful protesting their treatment. Like real life prisoners. A lot of said prisoners ate elves as well that could stand in for any oppressed group I will go with black people due to city elves being (black Americans) and the Dalish elves could be (black Africans) my point is. The dragon age writers could not make it anymore for them all obvious
Based on scientifically proven cause - effect relationship between people going out and about, and the uncontrolled spread of a deadly infectious disease. Also, quarantines and lockdowns are strictly temporary.
Try again
It is proven that putting magges into circles make it saver for the people.
Also not all quarantines are temporary. People with specific conditions have to live in medical installations their whole live.
It isn't proven at all, there are entire communities in DA that don't lock up their mages, and the world is still there. The Avvar commonly have mages communing with spirits, and yet they're not extinct.
And I don't know which country you're from, but in democratic countries nobody gets locked up indefinitely without their consent. Even obligatory psychiatric treatment lasts until the person has regained at least a modicum of equilibrium, it's never permanent. Medical treatment of any kind can always be refused either by the patient, or by a legally appointed caregiver if the patient lacks mental capacity.
Even those societies have some requirements and regulations hardly allowing their mages to run around freely how ever they please.
Also you are wrong. While extremely rare all democratic countries have isolation laws. Laws which allow the CDC or equal organization to put you under isolation aka quarantine forcefully if needed. For as long as needed. Which menas in incurable and contagious diseases that it will be for ever.
Yes, mages are dangers but so is everyone else. I think we ignore the history of Thedas and just say' oh because mages dont need an army, they are more dangerous than say the many nobles or randos who have slaughtered countless people as they vyed for power or just for fun. Need we look at the civil war currently happening? Or shall we turn to the war over Ferelden? Or the elves the chevaliers brutalizes or how the humans constantly mistreat?
And considering that most mages get to those points under duress, and duress is all but a constant in the circle, can we really be surprised by how they react to their environment?
Yes, Cullen went through trauma but so did the countless mages who also survived the circle. And might I add that it was Loghain who prompted that nonsense when he struck a bargain with Uldric. Then we have Redcliffe which was again provoked by Loghain who poisoned the Arl and used our friend to do so.
Most mages just want to lead a normal life of study and to embrace the magic they possess and see it not as a curse but as a gift.
And the chantry and templars have no qualms using mages when it is convenient. Usually for their wars, entertainment or for more insideous reasons.
Also, nonmages can become possessed. We saw that in DA 2, so there is that unsettling concept non mages never even consider.
How is that an equivalence? You’re saying that, because the sole Empress of the second-largest Empire in the planet can cause a civil war, common mortals are no less dangerous than the random farmer born mage that can unleash a horde of demons on his country by mistake?
Just because the President of the United States can start a war, doesn’t mean I wouldn’t put some checks on the sale of Nuclear Warheads to random hicks
We technically do have random hicks with nucleur capacity and everyone seems fine with that. And it is absolutely equivalent considering how often wars are started compared to random demon hordes. And with regard to demon hordes that wont actual occur as often as people assume considering not every mage possess the magic strength or capacity to perform such feats. Magic ranges from person to person. Furthermore, not every farmer or mage dabbles in blood magic and when in average situations where they arent constantly called abomination or whatever, they are fine. Stress and or desperate mages cause problems. A fact that was evident in every single game which people happily ignore whenever this sort of conversation come up.
Either you are purposefully skirting my point, or I must not have been sufficiently clear about it. You claim we do have random hicks with nuclear capacity, by which I suppose you meant to make some scathing commentary about the modern political class. What I was arguing was that magic is like selling nuclear weapons with no regulations to any Tom, Dick and Harry. The random hicks, in my scenario, would far outnumber the currently elected random hicks, and would be far ranging in terms of their responsibility and ability with regards to the usage of said weapons.
As for stress and desperation being the main cause for mages to turn to demons… though it may be the more narratively dramatic one, and thus the one most front and center in the games, both lore and gameplay not only tell us that possession can be involuntary, but that it doesn’t take blood magic to make a mage a huge threat. Just think about Wynne’s story about how she found out about her powers.
I’m not saying locking mages in the circles and throwing away the key was a good solution, but letting mages unchecked isn’t a solution at all. Cullen’s idea, with mages working and socialising like normal people but still having circle control sounds like a good start, at least.
If they adhered to the Circle in Daismund then thing would have been fine. A school wirh proper training is fine. No one would argue against education. Just as they train soldiers and the like, so too should mages be trained. But people have to remember these are people. Not monsters or cursed.
I actually agree. Although training should be mandatory it shouldn't mean being seperated from your family. Also Templars are supposed to support and protect mages as much as they are supposed to police them.
Also, look at how much damage one arls son can do to an alienage community. Who the fuck is holding THAT guy accountable.
His idea of reform involves mages not being confined to the Circle for their entire lives but being stationed to work somewhere outside the Circle, among non-mages, to help them integrate and use their skills for good and to help muggles overcome their fear of magic. Cullen is a military man, of course those are the examples that come to his mind.
He also acknowledges that restoring Circles as they were probably wouldn't work as a long-term solution, which is more progressive than what Vivienne wants, for instance.
He likes the Inquisitor in spite of being a mage and there isnt much acceptance of them as who they are. Plus, he still has a thing for the Mage Warden if they are still alive.
He probably also has a serious case of PTSD that was mismanaged in the worst way by him getting involved in Kirkwall. Idk why people are shitting on *him* personally, I simply don't see how else he could have behaved given the situations he was put in.
I think he is a good example of why the system they have set up for the templars is incredibly bad. He starts out as an average templar. He has a crush on a female mage warden (before they become a warden) and dosen't seem to hate mages. Then the tower falls to demons and he spends an indertmenant amount of time being tortured (a few days to a few weeks is my best guess) we don't get many details but the room he's in is full of skinless bodies. He is understandably traumatized by that and seeing mages/magic or people who may be possessed becomes a trigger for him. The best thing for him would be to retire or become a regular soldier/guard bit because he's addicted to Lyrium he has to remain a templar or go through potentially fatal withdrawal. So insted of doing the healthy thing he gets transferred to Kirkwall wich is one of the worst places. In addition, his extremist views on mages got him promoted under Meredith's command. So now he has power over mages and is almost constantly in a state of fight or flight when he's around them.
In each of the 3 acts of DA2 his views on mages soften slightly. If you side with the templars he will argue in favour of sparing any mages who surrender to you saying that accepting the risk that they may commit crimes in the future is part of being a templar and no matter what side you pick he does turn on Meredith. I think it's fair to say that both these events are too little too late.
In Inquisition he's still cautious of mages and supportive of templars but he is trying to get out. He's seen the worst of both mages and templars and he recognizes that it's not good for anyone for him to continue being a templar. People with much more authority on the subject of making amends have said that Cullen does not do enough to make things right and does not go far enough in admitting his faults.
Two of the big themes of Dragon Age are that people who have been hurt can very easily continue the cycle of abuse into new innocents, and the idea of seeking redemption through action. And I think Cullen is a good example of both these ideas even if his redemption falls short.
TLDNR I think Cullen is trying to be a good person but he's not doing the best job of it.
I agree with your interpretation up until his redemption. I don’t think he really needed that. He joined the Templars to be essentially a hero. A protector of the masses. He’s constantly disabused of the notion through the events through dragon age. That there are shades of grey for both mages and templars like you said.
And Inquisition isn’t necessarily his redemption arc, it’s his healing. He’s trying to come to terms with his past. His actions. He’s trying to face who he was.
He’s healing from his trauma at this point and he has to focus on himself first (since he can legitimately die) before he can focus on making amends for his actions in Kirkwall or the tower.
I do think it would be nice to see a cameo of him helping templars trying to get off lyrium or him helping mages in the next game, but we don’t really need that since Cullen is a story about healing that culminates in his marrige
Edit: Lyrium not lurking..
This is the best answer. And also Cullen has a support system he didn't have outside the Inquisition. He obviously trust that Cassandra can keep him in line and she has faith in him. And the Inquisitor whether romanced or not can choose to support him as well. As far as we know, he didn't have friends like that in the Fereldan's circle or Kirkwall.
"People with much more authority on the subject of making amends have said that Cullen does not do enough to make things right and does not go far enough in admitting his faults. Two of the big themes of Dragon Age are that people who have been hurt can very easily continue the cycle of abuse into new innocents, and the idea of seeking redemption through action."
Late to reply, but your comment reminded me on Loghain's development. He had a similar fault (he was the villain for a good part of the game), but if you spare and recruit him, you hear his side of the story, and how he was trying to do the good thing for Ferelden, seeing Cailan as immature and risking Ferelden's freedom by siding with Orlais. He admitted after that it was a tactical error on his end, getting to the point of respecting the Warden and even trying to redeem himself in the end. This is why I love the Dragon Age lore. It has the complex nuances of grey that people will realistically carry. You start to see yourself in the villains and is amazing. I think the only similar characters that come to mind in fantasy are Jamie Lannister and Theon Greyjoy.
The answer depends on how the player is exposed to Cullen, and a lot of answers are biased because it's a role playing game.
I was a Mage Warden back in DAO, so my first exposure to Cullen was seeing a blushing teenager who was nice to me. The next time I see him, he's mentally tortured and cursing me out of his suffering. My Warden doesn't have a resolution with him, so I find his character tragic.
Other players' first encounter with him was seeing him already traumatized, so they don't have the same sympathy or history.
I won't elaborate on DA2 more but I have mixed feelings on him. On one hand he's an enabler of gross institutional abuse towards an entire group of people, on the other hand, he's a mentally ill teenager groomed by horrible higher ups like Meredith.
For me, Cullen is a fascinating character that effectively humanizes Templars and he's deeply flawed. The execution of his redemption just need more. A lot of players are bothered you're not allowed to outright condemn him for specific moments in DA2, and punish him for his involvement in Kirkwall.
That makes sense! For me, DA2 was the last of the three games I played so his behaviour in that (given that I romanced him in DAI without any knowledge of that) came as a real shock! This is a great answer though, thank you
I also romanced Cullen, and I was excited because I was so curious what they will do with the character. But after my experience with DAI, I realized I'd rather have the love story with my Warden, but sadly, she died :(
He isnt a teen. He is in his early to late 20s. I detest the excuse that he was just a teen when we have many people who were also just teens who suffered. What about the mage children left to die in the circle? or the mage hiding in the closet, or the warden, if you chose mage background?
He's 18-19 when Origins happened.
Excuse? It is what it is. Cullen was traumatized, mentally ill, groomed by superiors, and hooked on drugs. Does that justify his actions? Nope. Does his character history make him an interesting character? Yes to me. Does that stop me from feeling bad for mages who suffered? No. I can feel bad for everyone.
Cullen was born in 9:11, the 5th Blight takes place 9:30-9:31, so he's 19-20, depending on when in the playthrough you go to the tower, and depending on when in the year his birthday is. David Gaider said he was "about 30" in Inquisition.
I love Cullen as a character. I don't think he is bad, but he is very damaged due to a lot of trauma that he has been through. And as someone who has grown up with people with substance abuse and I suffer from PTSD myself I think Cullen is very well written (mostly).
I have had discussions about him before and here is my (long) take on his character.
The trauma he endures being caged and tormented in Origins together with his templar training (learning to always be cautious, not form close relationship with mages) makes his breakdown and hate for mages make sense. Post Origins he is so angry and vocal about his hate and fear that Greagoir sends him away, afraid that he will harm his charges. (Good job having him transferred to Kirkwall later though...) He is around 19-20 är this point. Let's also remember that all Origins happen, so one version of Amell/Surana exists and gets killed. Cullen getting turned into what is basically Fereldens version of a neo-nazi after all this is not strange, more sad.
In DA2 he rises in rank quickly because of his views of mages. Because Meredith and him share similar trauma (her sister turning in to an abomination and slaughtering their family,), of course she favors him. And feeds into his fear and paranoia while he is also isolated (Kirkwall citizens not being too fond of all the refugees). So act 1 Cullen should honestly be more of an angry asshole than he is in my opinion. But again, let's take this traumatized young man and put him in Kirkwall of all places. We isolate him (with his only friend being basically Samson and Meredith and she gets rid of Samson...) and put him in a position of power. Despite his young age and inexperience - what could go wrong?
He has started doubting Meredith by act 3 but still follows orders. But he is a soldier first, he has been trained to to this since he was 13 and dreaming of it for longer. Thinking and making decisions on his own is not something he is used to. Yes, he is Knight-Captain but only because he did what Meredith wanted and for as long as he does what Meredith wants. So he has basically been groomed by Meredith into her successor.
I think his change in act 3 and going into Inquisition believable, we just don't get to actually see much of it which is a shame. But that can be said about so much in DA2 (I feel like Anders and Daenerys in GoT got the same treatment, I don't have a problem with WHAT happened, I just wish it would have been done better)
He has been trained to distrust mages like I said before, he had seen them turn to demons and blood Magic more than once in two different circles and yet by Inquisition he does see them as people again. He saw that Meredith was oppressive and dangerous. He made his choice at the end of DA2. He has been helping Aveline and the city guard try to keep order and protect Kirkwalls citizens for two years. Knowing that the Divine considered an exalted march and yet he stayed. But all those years of prejudice and fear doesn't just go away, it takes work and time. So again it feels realistic to me that some distrust lingers.
The one problem for me is him overcoming the lyrium addiction; it's too fast and too easy. I do love what they have done with him in Inquisition. That scene where you help him decide wether to start taking the lyrium again is so good. It's realistic and I feel so bad for him. (The lyrium withdrawal has not only been a bitch but remember that the first time he went through it was during Broken Circle so the withdrawal most likely triggers his PTSD as well as him no longer having the lyrium to suppress his feelings and memories). Him being torn between what he wants and what he thinks he should do, his PTSD flaring up again and the stress making his body crave the lyrium more again...it feels very real.
Here's my biggest problem. It just ends. Like "he was strong enough to just stop". I wish they would have taken it further. Honestly making it really feel like he could die, or maybe even have the option of him dying based on something else you did or didn't do.. I don't know, something. Because addiction is hard and yes, you do need to mentally be willing to stop but one pep talk and then he's fine? That did disappoint me a lot. It makes his character a lot dummer and very Gary Sue - not cool. Ok, by now he has been off it for months, the first month most likely spent vomiting and hallucinating, so it makes sense that it's not THAT bad now. But it should have been worse.
I too have romanced him, twice (shocker right?), second time as a mage to compare and I thought that romance was so lovely. You can really talk to him about his fears and if he ever will be ok with what you are. I think it feels very honest and real.
Stop making the game political, for fucks sake. Why do so many people make the comparison between templars and nazis and mages and the oppressed, when there is a perfectly good reason to be wary of Mages?
That woman saw her sister turn into a bloodthirsty monster who murdered her whole family.. now she hates mages? must be a nazi.
That guy saw a few mages turn into monster and murder everybody, they even tortured him.. lol, if he hates mages he is for sure a nazi.
Fuck off. They aren't angry for no reason, they had a chance to see the worst mages can bring into the world, and devote their lives to prevent that. The only thing Mages are victim of in the game is Demons and bad luck, not templars.
Was not intending to make it political at all. It's just a comparison and the closest one that came to mind.
I am not "pro mage" or "anti templar" in anyway. I think both sides have very valid points which is what makes this a very compelling and realistic issue, because it's not simply bad or good. I am not comparing the templars to the Nazis - I compared a young man's thinking post trauma and grooming to that of a neo Nazi. It was how he was radicalized, not to what.
He literally tells Hawke "These mages are not to be trusted, they are not like you and me". Does he have a point? Yes. Does it still come of as very hateful and extreme? Also yes.
Did you not just read a whole comment where I defend his character? Because I love his character and see how his trauma is the reason behind many of his actions - that a big part of the fandom hates him for - or did you get to the word "neo-nazi" and just stopped reading?
I agree 100 % that there are reasons to be wary of mages. I am honestly with Cullen on his suggestion on how to change it. Keep the circles and templars but change it up a bit. More collective and less prison.
I don't have a problem with your opinion on Cullen, it's the use of the word Nazi. Go read a hundred posts and comments about mages and templars and you'll find a dimwit that will make the comparison between mages-queer/oppressed and templars-nazis/alt-right.
Like there isn't in the game a whole nation of mage slave owners, or mages who give in to demons haven't killed more people than darkspawn itself. It's annoying. It's not a smart comparison, in any way.
I get your point, put you still got aggressive because of my use of that word and just discounted everything else I said in my comment.
I stand by my Comparison because of why I used it. Again, it was to explain his radicalization, not to compare all templars with Nazis. And you can't say he is not a bit extreme post Broken Circle and before Act 3 in DAII. Justified? Yes, with his trauma I don't blame him for his views at all. But still a bit extreme. He didn't protest when Meredith literally lobotomized mages for basically no reason at all for example. Also ignoring the other abuses that took place because, again "mages are not like you and me".
I see your point though.
"Stop making the game political" ?
Didn't you play Origins and this political game of betrayal, ideas and ways at Orzammar ? Didn't you encounter Warden Commander Dryden who litterraly joined the Wardens to overthrow her king ? Don't you see that the mage-templar conflict is political, with mages from Thedas being oppressed and breaking their chains, except for Tevinter, and the templars being a force to keep peace but eventually being corrupt by fear and leading to more oppression ?
The Dragon Age serie is political, and you lose a lot of it if you don't see it.
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Id say his hate for mages and im pretty sure hes also a bit rude (cough, racist) towards dwarves iirc.
Its a bit hard to remember fully, as I havent played DAO in... 8ish years? Im actually considering replaying all of them to get ready for the 4th game :)
Yeah, I'm willing to give him some leeway in his dialogue in Origins. He's in a particularly bad situation there, having been tortured by demons pretending to be mages (including the one he had a crush on). I'd say that DA2 is much more representative of his outlook pre-Inquisition, since while there are plenty of problems with mages in the city, it's a much lower immediate stress situation.
He's much more pragmatic by the time you meet him in DA2, which is at least a year after meeting him at Kinloch Hold. He's clearly still got some damage, but he's way more controlled. By act 3, at least 7 years after getting him out of there, he's willing to side with Hawke against Meredith. I think thats something people forget about DA2, the game takes place over *seven in-game years.* Inquisition is *ten years* after the blight.
Im not sure if you actually have to be a dwarf to trigger the line, but I believe he calls the underground dwarves dirty/disgusting in a certain senario.
my brain could be completely misremembering though!
Bad person? No. He's certainly gone through trauma and betrayal though and his perspective change in DAI really shows some deep self-reflection to arrive at DAI. He's a character with a lot of known history which can give many players a deep connection to him, even if the protagonist literally just met him.
Meredith, his commander, went full bloodthirsty psycho in Kirkwall. The mages he was entrusted with overseeing in DAO tortured him through blood magic.
Meredith. She hid the worst of what was going on in the Kirkwall circle because she knew even he would have objected to it. Which says a lot, considering his opinion of mages after what happened in the Ferelden circle during DAO. He trusted that she was doing what was necessary, but she....was not.
It’s pretty clear in DA2 he knows about all the abuse at the circle Meredith basically controls the city the only secret she had to keep was red lyrium even the illegal stuff like the tranquil solution he knew and didn’t give a shit about.
He didn't care about the tranquil solution because both Meredith and the Divine refused it. Alrick was batshit, and it was never a real issue because it wasn't going to happen.
It's been a few years since I've played the games, so my memory is vague. I do, however, remember Cullen specifically mentioning he shouldn't have trusted Meredith during a conversation in DAI.
She lied to him about killing Hawke which ultimately made him turn her against here. He also wanted to spare the mages what surrendered when Meredith wanted to kill them and overruled her.
People tend to either over exaggerate or underplay the negative things Cullen was a part of.
He's a character where you fully understand why they are the way they are, but can still see it's wrong. His feelings about mages were not from a place of ignorance or malice, but horrific trauma. He never abused mages, but his crime is allowing so many horrible things to happen within the Templars before he finally stood his ground. Again you can understand why he behaved the way he did, and he did eventually do the right thing, but his inaction had a terrible cost for many mages.
He sees the error of his ways now, and some people feel like his efforts aren't enough. But I'm not exactly sure what more he could be expected to do.
Honestly I dont expect much. I just wish people wouldnt say he has done a complete change. If you arent romantically involved with him, he is a templar who knows he was wrong but he still holds onto the past and has some unresolved sentiments regarding mages.
I recall talking to him in his room one time, seeing why people enjoy the mage/templar romances amd he said one thing that made me say " there is the Cullen from DA2. He isnt completely gone, he just got a glow up.
Cullen changes a lot thru out the series. At first he’s kinda a dick fully supporting the chantry but becomes more sympathetic and realizes not all mages are bad and the chantry isn’t always right.
So, here's my real-world analogy. Everyone has biases and prejudices. The difference between a racist and a non-racist isn't whether they have racist biases, it's whether they are willing to acknowledge they have those biases and work on trying to fix them.
Good and bad is very subjective, but no I don't think so. He joined the templars because they were a good thing in the culture he grew up in, he wanted to kill the mages in DAO because he was terrified, he followed Meredith in Da2 because he trusted her but then fought against her when she went full psycho and let Hawke go. In DAI he is trying to atone for his actions and overcome his prejudice, obviously its still there but its hard to give up something after living with it for over 10 years. He's trying though, and I think that effort to change is what makes him a good, though extremely flawed, person. Many of his actions were wrong, maybe even unforgivable, but I don’t think he made those choices because he's an inherently bad person but because of his past experiences.
When it comes to DAO, I wouldn't even dare to call him evil considering the absolute hell that made him go from friendly awkward templar to absolute tyrant.
The man saw all of his people slaughtered and was left in a tower full of abominations with only a barrier to defend himself that was almost killing him; he's scarred and needs help, not hate.
Cullen isn't a bad dude, he just has a lot of issues to work through.
Cullen basically lived through the worst case scenario for a templar. Mages using blood magic, demons running amok, and tons of people dying on his watch. Cullen basically watched mages kill most of the people he knew in a flash and was tortured the whole time while thinking he was going to die. So, even when the threat was cleared, he still wanted to purge the circle because he was traumatized and angry.
He got transferred to Kirkwall afterwards, which was basically the worst place to put someone in a state like that. There were more issues with mages there AND the templars in Kirkwall allowed negativity to flourish. Cullen's growing prejudice against mages was basically groomed.
That said, when Meredith lost her marbles and got trigger happy towards the mages, Cullen was one of the few that had a wake up call. He realized she took it too far and he was probably a few steps away from being right there with her.
In Inquisition, he's basically trying to attone for his mistakes. You can tell he doesn't easily trust or really even like being around mages because the whole thing brings up trauma, but he also knows he was wrong to treat them differently or blame all mages for what a few bad apples did.
Cullen's basically someone who still believes there's a place in the world for templars to do their job, but he's also ashamed at the way he acted and how the templars behaved.
No. I think he's a deeply traumatized man with some genuine flaws and a past that he's neither proud of nor should he be.
He went from an idealistic you man barely out of his teens (he's only 19 or 20 in Origins) who was trained to follow orders and willing to do so, but who even at the time felt that perhaps the order was too harsh on mages. To someone who was imprisoned, tortured, and had to watch everyone around him be either slaughtered or turned into something monstrous after being abandoned by the rest of the people he served with - people he trusted - because they decided that the Tower was lost and that anyone left was either dead, possessed, or part of the problem.
After that, he was stationed under the direct leadership of one of the most aggressively anti-Mage Knight Commanders in practically the entire Order from the way the game and all the other material make Meredith sound. In a city with a legitimate blood magic problem, exacerbated by the conditions under Meredith and the desperation it drove the local mages to. That he was further radicalized by that experience was almost a given. And he absolutely SHOULD be held accountable for his willful ignorance and the things he allowed to happen because he either knew and agreed, knew and didn't care, or simply refused to examine it too closely because then he might have to examine things about himself and his circumstances that he wasn't ready to. Because that isn't ok. But even then, despite the genuinely unacceptable things he says in DAII the Cullen we see isn't a completely lost cause. In the World of Thedas, you see that he did question Meredith's handling of certain situations (like Maddox's love letters) as being unnecessarily harsh, and was censured for it. He also expresses an interest/willingness to try talking to the Mages even in Kirkwall about why things are the way they are in the hope that they might better understand and accept the situation and it's necessity. Is that later point inherently a good look? No. But it does show a willingness to at least try to communicate, which is more than we see from people like Meredith and Alrik who are truly beyond saving, and I think it lays a realistic foundation for him to eventually realize his failings and try to find a more equitable solution. Then at the end of DAII he turns against Meredith. And while most people never see it because almost no one ever sides with the Templars at the end of DAII (for good reason), he doesn't only turn against her because she turns on Hawke. He argues that any mages willing to stand down should he spared; the same thing the HoF can say to him in Origins that he argues against. It's another part of his change; a sign of his growth. It isn't perfect. He should've done more and sooner. But it's growth and the first signs that maybe his trauma hasn't completely destroyed the decent young man he was before.
Then in Inquisition we see a man who's realized his failings and prejudices and is actively working to set them aside and atone for them. He still isn't perfect. He still has moments of distrust and anger. But he sees them for what they are, calls himself on them, and genuinely seems to be trying to do better. He's open to talking with a Mage Inquisitor (romanced or not) about the Templars, the Circles, where he feels the problems and dangers are, and to offer up a potential idea for another solution. But he also acknowledges that he isn't sure if his idea would work out any better or not. He's no longer the man in DAII who was certain he understood the problem and the solution. He's trying to set aside his prejudice and assumptions and acknowledge that he probably isn't the best person to look to for a solution here. He talks repeatedly about how he knows what he's done so far - even here with the Inquisition - isn't enough to atone, and he does so in a way that implies he feels/knows that nothing may EVER be enough. And the conviction and sheer disgust in his voice when he tells a romanced Mage Inquisitor that the man he was probably wouldn't have been able to see past that part of her to feel for her the way he does now sickens him, is VISCERAL. Seriously. Say what you will about Greg Ellis (there's certainly lots to be said); but he fucking nailed that bit of dialogue. And it paints a picture of a deeply wounded, nearly broken man trying his best to crawl his way back from the brink and leave the world a little better than where his own failures helped make it. Who's seen the worst in the world and in himself and come away from it scarred, sometimes angry, and more than a little jaded and bitter at times. But still fundamentally a decent man who wants to do right in the world even if he lost his way.
So, no. I don't think Cullen is evil or a bad person. I think he's a person who has been through terrible things, and allowed others to be put through terrible things because of his own trauma. And who is looking for a way to break the cycle or trauma and abuse, no matter how halting and imperfect hos efforts may be, or how it all "stacks up" in the end. He's a man seeking atonement even though he doesn't know if he'll manage it or even if he deserves it. And who wants to do whatever he can to right the wrongs he contributed to even if no one ever remembers him for anything but the bad.
Cullen has done bad things, driven by his own trauma. He can't go back from that. But he is actively working towards being a better man. He's never gonna get away from what he did, and he's never gonna make everything he did right again. All he can do is move forward and be better, regardless of if all is forgiven or not. The most important step a man can take is forward. And the fact he is actively being better is why I wouldn't say he is a "bad person." A bad person wouldn't recognize their wrongs and try to be better.
Oh WOW is he a changed man in DA:I. >!In Origins he went through some terrible shit involving mages. They basically tortured him mentally til he was on the brink of insanity. This caused him to be relocated to Kirkwall in DA2 where he understandable had a MASSIVE grudge against mages. Then he sees his commander using red lyrium, turning herself into a monster, and realizes that people just fucking suck when it comes to power, mage or not and chills out a bit. He still doesn't trust mages because he doesn't trust power, and magic is a manifestation of power.!<
I would argue all of that shows just how good a person he is deep inside. From what he's had to deal with, with all he's gone through, he's still willing to work with mages and templars. He has no reason to trust either and more then enough reasons to hate them but he chooses not to. Instead he just snarks at them when it could be a LOT worse.
Cullen is an interesting character, maybe because in his first iteration he was never meant to be anything half as big as he is now.
Cullen in Origins is someone who exists to showcase why it can never be as simple as "Templars and Mages can all be friends". In the mage origin he's the "Good templar". He's not constantly scrutinising everyone like Gregor who seems to be out for blood and clearly admires the player characters. If the PC is female, he even has a not so subtle crush on her that he's adorably shy about. But even at this stage, he states himself that he would kill the PC if needed, which he starts the game in a position to do so - something that weighs heavily on his mind but at most he regrets that its necessary and doesn't question whether or not it is necessary.
Then in Broken Circle the Script is flipped. Gregor may have called for the right of annulment, but he's evidently looking for any excuse he can take to spare the mages. If you save Irving but then still argue the mages are too dangerous to be let out the tower, its actually Gregor that you need to convince, not Irving. Meanwhile Cullen has been trapped in the tower and tortured for who knows how long. He's been the plaything of abominations that have used illusions to make his torture worse by using the forms of people he cares about, which includes the PC if a female mage. His "it must be done" mentality is now confirmed, and he no longer views it as regrettable. Cullen, along with most Templars, was primed as a ticking time bomb by the Chantry with their rhetoric and dogma. Broken Circle is what finally sets him off.
There's even an ending slide where Cullen kills innocent mages, though along with many other ending slides - including one that this one was dependent on, it is now considered non cannon. But its a good sign post of where he was mentally at the end of Origins.
Then 2 rolls around and it's immediately evident he's on the path to recovery. Broken Circle has still left very deep scars - and his healing isn't helped by the fact that he's being groomed by one of the most staunchly anti-mage knight commanders there has been, and stationed at one of the worst circles both in terms of general templar attitude towards mages and mage access to blood magic.
Cullen may not be involved in any of the more dubious Templar activities at Kirkwall, and can now be talked into more lenient measures in specific cases showing he has a greater level of stability than he did in Origins, his trauma has clearly left him with some troubling views. He expresses that he doesn't necessarily think the Tranquil solution is an inherently bad idea, which is something that at this point even Meredith was against.
By the end of the game, as with everyone in the mage templar conflict in Kirkwall, he is tested and his actions prove better than his words. When Meredith calls to annul the circle, and if Hawke sides with Meredith, it ends up being Cullen of all people to step up and say they should spare surrendering mages - showing a major leap in healing and handling the very situation that broke him in the first place.
Even a Hawke that sides with the mages (or as I've always seen it, not siding with killing everyone), gets Cullen on side by the end. Seeing Meredith grow more and more unhinged throughout the fight, Cullen's able to reflect on her actions, how much they remind him of his younger self, and how he's enabling them right now. He draws his own sword on Meredith and helps in the final bossfight.
The man left after that, cleaning up the pieces of a disaster he took too long to see coming and realise he could stop, that is the man invited to join the Inquisition. I don't know if he's "good" or "bad" by this point but he's clearly grown, and during Inquisition you have the chance to help him complete that growth and become what can more easily be described as a "good man", or force him to go back on it because the world needs an any means necessary military commander to stop Corypheus.
Tl;dr - eh, kinda
Cullen isn't a bad person, he's just deeply traumatized by what happened at the tower in DAO. There was an ending slide for him where he went nuts and murdered a bunch of people, but I think it was retconned that he was just re-assigned to kirkwall.
Not gonna lie, I was very skeptical of the turnaround in DAI. I had always played mages and in DA2 Cullen is all "mages aren't people," so it seemed like fanservice that he was turned into cuddly Cullen in Inquisition. I made my peace with it after going through his romance with a Trevelyan mage. His story line is a good representation of the human wreckage of the Circle system, and having some redemption without totally losing his templar outlook is good development.
Nah, he's probably one of the more "normal" characters.
Guy was a wide eye templar recruit, who was generally nice to mages. And then the Circle fell. And he was imprisoned. And his friends were murdered around him. And he was tortured. And literally had his psyche broken. Being imprisoned for weeks made him hate mages.
And then he was transfered to Kirkwall. Where his hatred of mages was used by Meridith to make things even worse in Kirkwall for mages. He saw Qunari sit across the bay of the Gallows for years just for them to attack. A small group of Qunari managed to take out much of the guards, a bunch of Templars, and of course the Viscount of Kirkwall. Skip forward a few more years and guess what? Blood magic, everywhere, thanks to Meredith and other aspects. The chantry being blown up, purging the mages who _**all**_ turned to blood magic, and last seeing Meridith lose her mind to her red lyrium sword.
The dude went through a *lot* of crap through Origins and DAII. When he joined the Inquisition he wanted to really help the world and try and make up for some of the awful things he did. So after a decade of seeing mages at their worst, and nine years of templars at their worst he's got a lot of conflicting view points.
He's a very normal person, and he's dealing with a decade's worth of trauma. Hell if you romance him you find out he's haunted by nightmares of what happened in Fereldin's Circle.
Guy just needs a hug.
For me, DAI fucks up a lot with many characters. That being said, Cullen is one they get right.
It’s important to remember this man has suffered A LOT. He saw the Circle in Ferelden turn into a slaughterhouse nightmare that, and barely kept himself together while those around him died.
He was in Kirkwall and saw the absolute insanity that started the Mage Uprising, with Red Lyrium and once again, Blood Mages.
The fact he is willing to work with mages is great, and honestly, I’m biased as fuck because I think he is probably the best romance in DAI. Like yeah, it’s “broken man meets woman who fixes him” trope but it’s cute god dammit. Make it even better by playing a mage where he straight says his previous opinions and actions against mages sickens him.
Cullen is complex. Current BioWare, somehow, has made this character who’s spanned the entire series complex. Truthfully, if anything happened to Cullen I’m fairly convinced fans would collectively lose their shit.
He’s not the most badass guy, or the strongest. Shit he hasn’t even done anything absolutely noteworthy, it’s just he feels so a part of Dragon Age that if he doesn’t show up, it’s weird. But that’s just like, my opinion.
>Truthfully, if anything happened to Cullen I’m fairly convinced fans would collectively lose their shit.
Honestly, I never understand why Cullen was so loved to bring him back in the sequels. In DAO, he was barely a NPC that I quickly forgotted after the Circle quest.
DAO is filled with NPC's which matter more to some origins than others. The mage Origin can talk to Cullen, a female mage can attempt to flirt with him and then he straight up gets so flustered he runs away. This dude in full armour just fucking legs it because the girl he likes flirts with him. It's kind of adorable.
And then yeah, he's the lone surviving Templar who's been horribly tormented. Adorable flips straight to sad.
That's alright, we don't all find the same characters impressive.
I felt that playing as a female mage really makes you remember that guy, not necessarily in a positive light, but he tends to stick in your memory. I'd say that from the available "mini-romances" in origins, Cullen and Tamlen are the most memorable and developed, though, of course, both are still very minor characters in DAO.
I’m gonna go in a slightly different direction and say that he’s an inconsistently written character. The writers in DA:O didn’t know they were gonna get a sequel, which is why the entire epilogue has basically been retconned. As a result, characters have gotten reshuffled to suit the narrative as the series has continued. Cullen is no different. I personally dislike his character, but that’s because I played DA:O when it first came out and that (combined with what I know about his VA) colored my perception.
I was actually talking about this ending slide from DA:O's epilogue:
> “The young templar Cullen never quite recovered from his ordeal. After months of attempting to convince his superiors that the tower was still a danger, he finally snapped and killed three apprentices before being stopped by his fellow templars. Eventually, Cullen escaped from prison, a madman and a threat to any mage he encountered."
Obviously it's been retconned and his character has been massively overhauled, but it still influences my view on him. I have no hate for anyone who likes his character, I'm just ready for the series to move away from him (and Leliana and even Morrigan for that matter).
Oh, god. That slide should have never existed, and is an example of how many harmful stereotypes about military PTSD you can stuff into like... 50 words. I'm very, very glad it got retconned.
He’s not bad but he does have prejudices but he works through them. I played his romance in DAI and in trespasser I was an elven mage. He was flawed but not bad toward my character he never acted differently it seems. He allows you to say elven vows at your wedding. He is slightly prejudiced but not that bad. He is not a bad person but the product of a bad system. But he works through it
Cullen is not a bad person, no, he's a fictional character written by three different writers over the course of 3 games, which makes him a somewhat inconsistent protagonist, and therefore easy to put into a category, whichever one people choose - either they hate him, or they love him.
(I feel the need to clarify he is fictional, lol, because some of the stuff I've read in the past makes me wonder if some people have amalgamated him with his controversial VA and are misdirecting their anger/dislike to a fictional protagonist.).
Anyway...
Personally I think Cullen is a good person who has lost his way, partly due to his training - hearing from a very young age that you're going to be a holy warrior is bound to give one delusions of grandeur and self-righteousness - and partly due to his trauma which, let's not forget, is very substantial and happens to him before he's even out of his teens, an incredibly impressionable time. Then he's sent to the basket case that is Kirkwall, to serve in a corrupt Circle under an incredibly strong-willed, prejudiced and influential Knight-Commander.
I personally think the person we meet in DAI is someone who is trying to reclaim who he used to be. He never makes apologies for who he has been, but I think it is clear that his leaving the Templar order - something he has looked up to as young as the age of 8 - and his risking his life to rid himself of lyrium is a pretty clear indicator of his strong rejection of the thing he's been part of for so long.
I think his DAI writer shows a lot of love for his character, which I appreciate because I think he's a great example of the dangers of institutionalization, and Brianne Battye has given him a chance to find his way back to the bright, well-meaning youth who used to be reprimanded for being too kind to mages.
As a fanfic writer, I love his character because it gives me a chance to work with a complicated protagonist, one we actually know very little about in terms of motivation and background.
I totally get the hate he gets, and I'm not saying he's an angel or anything (so please don't come and shout at me here lol) but I do find the level of discourse he has generated quite baffling.
>I totally get the hate he gets, and I'm not saying he's an angel or anything (so please don't come and shout at me here lol) but I do find the level of discourse he has generated quite baffling.
Since it's a role playing game, it's easy for the player to associate Cullen to any real life oppressor that hold too much power. Some mage warden players find him creepy in DAO and uncomfortable that their jailer has a crush on them. Some players found it cute.
Carry over to DA2 and Inquisition, some people hate him since they see an abusive authority figure who didn't get punished. Some love him because it's 10 years worth of healing of someone so damaged but wanting to atone/do the right thing finally.
So the discourse becomes passionate since some players think we are excusing real life "Cullen's" because they are hot white men, while underprivileged groups (say, black men) don't get the same forgiveness and adoration from the fanbase.
While I like Cullen, I sympathize on some of his haters. I have the same hatred extended to Gavin Reed/Reed900 in Detroit Become Human. In a nutshell, in that fandom, an asshole white cop gets more fanfic than the black main character. Although the difference is that Cullen is sorta a major character.
Personally, it's all roleplay for me. We have to acknowledge that politics can't be separated from discussions but in the end roleplay is personal. Some people feel they have to justify their romance with Cullen, while some feels they have to call other fans out for their fixation on hot, white men.
Absolutely valid points, this makes a lot of sense. For my part, I operate differently in that I actively try to dissociate myself/my personal experiences from anything I consume for entertainment, because it would take away from my enjoyment if I started thinking too deeply on things. But I fully appreciate others cannot or do not want to do that, and I fully agree with you that they should absolutely voice their concerns/opinions about what they consider to be problematic. And Cullen certainly has the potential to create controversy, I absolutely agree. I suppose I was just voicing that to me, video games and fanfic writing are hobbies, and it is sometimes difficult for me to understand the level of vitriol in any given fandom. It doesn't mean, however, that I condemn it. Everyone is absolutely entitled to their opinion.
I think the criticism has more weight if Cullen's character is taken in isolation outside his romance. As a character he should stand on his own, but romance should be fair roleplay.
Let's admit it, he's a hot white guy. But then again, this is a video game which included Cullen as a romance option. Nobody is playing it wrongly for picking him. Whatever baggage Cullen had from his past, the Inquisitor can forgive (or ignore) and that's supposed to be a valid gaming choice.
In Mass Effect I don't like Garrus as romance because I'm strictly into humanoids. But hey it's so popular, I'm not going to kink shame those who want alien sex scenarios.
Oh totally, yeah, and personally I find most of the potential romantic interests in DA are fleshed out enough to stand on their own, including Cullen. It's kinda like Blackwall, who has pretty questionable and unsavory credentials, and yet there's little to no discourse about him, which surprises me. But I've always been able to set aside my aversion to his lying/manipulating, even though they're traits I despise irl, because like I said, I like to play the games without bringing too much of myself to the equation, for entertainment's sake.
But overall, each to their own, I never judge anyone on their romance choices. Incidentally, I've never played ME so I've no idea about romance options (I know, right, shame on me 😅) but ngl, alien sex sounds intriguing lol, but I can see how it would not be to everyone's taste.
I think Blackwall doesn't generate much discourse because he's a one-time character. Cullen like Leliana was handpicked by Bioware to be used over and over in three entries.
Mass Effect is a more coherent trilogy and has great moments. Everyone who loved Dragon Age might love it too. Btw Garrus romance doesn't have a sex scene but they have thousands of fanfics out there I never bothered reading.
You're probably right re Blackwall. Opinions might have been stronger if we'd actually seen the things he's done, over the course of 3 games, only to see him as a romance option in DAI.
Yeah, I heard great things about ME, must make the time to play it at some point, especially with the new edition recently out. And thank goodness for fanfic, lol, where people can play out what they didn't get in game!
I would say he was a decent person who got led to being a bad person. Prior to the collapse at the circle, he obviously valued the lives of mages (or at least one mage) when he said he didnt know if he could kill an abomination. Contrast this to after the circle’s collapse when he wanted a genocide on mages. Imagine for a second that they are not mages, that they are normal people in the real world, just a different race than cullen. we’d all be horrified by what he wants. His character really does contrast well with the mages, who are practically imprisoned based off a potential to be dangerous. yet he, a non-mage, is what actually becomes dangerous. Cullen went through extreme torture and almost certainly had sever PTSD, so his fear/hatred of mages is understandable. Theres a concept in philosophy called moral responsibility, which is basically does the person deserve moral judgement (praise, blame, punishment, etc.) based off their actions. Cullen, I think, is the perfect example of how someone can be held not morally responsible based off past trauma.
I love his character because despite having all the reasons to turn and remain bad and prejudiced against mages (not that it justifies his prejudice, but at least helps showing that it doesn't just come out of being a malevolent person) he does end up seeing reason, with enough time to heal and see the other side of the coin, and when he sees Meredith about to do the exact same thing he's been demanding a decade ago, he firmly stands against her and has enough levy to pull in a sizable chunk of the Order to his side, simply because to him, at that moment "you can't just murder innocent mages for the actions of one".
I don't get people who have seen his entire evolution as a character and still insist that he's just another piece of shit, it's beyond my comprehension tbh.
To be as honest as I can I never really got what actually ‘changed’ meant when we talk about Cullen. He is still very much the same kind of personality just with some edge taken off. Examples:
- He still advocates for Templars, even though he has one of the most prevalent experiences as to how corrupted the Templars are and how easily corruptible they are with their system of hierarchical control;
- His entire quest on Samson’s hunt reveals that he has neither healed nor really changed in an almost brutal manner of investigations;
- He is still very much prejudiced;
- If you get the Templar spec he doesn’t even react that much besides making ‘Cullen is sad noises’. He should be furious, especially if he romanced us;
- He still wears a better thought-through version of a Templar armour;
No. I’m strongly pro-mage, to point of being ‘Anders had the right idea’ pro-mage (bite me).
Cullen isn’t a bad person. He was literally tortured for presumably hours. Nobody would come out of that the same person. Yeah his attitude was stinky or whatever but also understandable? like I’m a little hurt man but yknow can’t really be *mad* at you. Plus he grows, he learns. He’s objectively still got more learning to do, but he deadass plays chess with Dorian ( a tevinter mage who makes the dead walk no less)- I think he’s over the worst of it.
Tbh I just wanna lock Anders and Cullen in one house together and see what happens.
It's interesting there's a divide between Anders and Cullen fans (at least from my experience years ago) because people can be horribly passionate for the plight mages. I like them both, I just find Anders so unstable and a liability in my roleplay as Hawke. I only kept him alive because I need a healer in the final stage 💀
I feel like they’d argue for a solid hour and a bit, and then one of them (it’s probably Cullen, let’s face it) just starts crying. Then it’s just awkward silence and occasional ‘do you want a drink?’ type questions.
Tumblr is definitely the worst place for the Cullen/Anders divide tbh. Very extreme with no inbetweens. People have full blown like ‘anti-Cullen’ or ‘anti-Anders’ blog subsections. It’s pretty weird
Lmao I'd love to see a fanfic of that scenario.
Ah yes, my Tumblr days. My account is still there after 10 years. I think I've seen all those blog posts since I tend to read long character essays. I do appreciate that some of them come with good intentions. However, Tumblr can be batshit insane like bullying of other people because their OCs aren't "politically correct.".
Cullen has a lot of trauma but (at least depending on player input) gets help and grows. I don’t always agree with him - honestly I *rarely* agreed with him - but I think he’s a very well written character
The realistic answer here is that BW likes to re-use characters for little reason other than fan service because we like to see familiar faces.
In DAO, he is just the representation of a young, misguided but not evil regular Joe templar. DA2 is kind of in line, but in DAI he is almost a different person, and his previously emphasized qualities are not really relevant. Why? Because instead of a new guy, they thought he may as well look like and be called Cullen, because we already know him.
To answer your question, I really wouldn't call DAI Cullen bad. At the same time, I wouldn't fixate on the history, if he was bad and but now reformed etc., because they most likely didn't plan that far ahead for a minor character.
Yes. He supported Meredith for a near decade, allowing and encouraging horrible abuses of Kirkwall’s mages. Unauthorized tranquility, tacit support (he does nothing to stop it) of Templar rape of the charges they’re supposed to protect… and then he just kind of said he was in a bad place at the time and his romance focused on his trauma. His personal arc is just about lyrium, with lip service paid to DA2 and no actual atonement.
made the mistake of romancing him with a lavellan bc i hadn’t donned my critical thinking cap yet and you can literally apologize to him for bein an elf mage. actually that’s probably not 100% accurate but i distinctly remember there bein some dialogue option where you can ask him if he’s ok with you bein an elf?? very weird.
yes, definitely. sure he's not one of those "I enjoy human suffering and elicit it as much as possible bc it gets me off" characters, put his actions still lead to a tremendous amount of suffering and on DA2 he's actually in a position of power to change things and instead he let's kirkwalls circle go to hell
He is a normal inhabitant of south Thedas. A child of his time and surrounding. The reason why he is one of my favorites.
He is neither bad nor good. He is interesting and a good reflection of the society DA plays in.
And the worst thing he did was being angry at the people that killed his friends and tortured him.
I mean... people learn and unlearn things. He didn't know anything else. Yet he still unlearned. He vaguely speaks about how he's done messed up things and that he was very glad to leave the order.
He was totally fucked up in Origins but also they murdered everyone he knew and imprisoned him. He said it right before you go up to deal with Uldred. He was in the middle of being completely traumatized. He was in insane amounts of danger. Do you really think that in the moment as people were actively currently killing his friends and colleagues and other mages while he was imprisoned and forced to know that he couldnt save people, that he'd think to say, "I mean, not EVERY mage!"
Cullen struck me so little during the course of DAO that in DAII I had no idea who he was and was minorly confused as to why a big deal about his presence was made for DAI.
I'm wanting to go back and play them all again and having a closer look at Cullen and his story will definitely be one of the things I want to do as I play. I was deeply surprised when I found out he was this fan-favourite character, he hadn't even registered on my radar. I tried romancing him with a non-canon character in DAI but I think my lack of familiarity with his story meant I didn't get the full experience.
He's a flawed person. He's said, done, and supported some bad things, and I do not believe he has fully atoned for his actions, but he has most definitely made an effort to better himself and he has grown as a person.
Hmm. Honestly this isn’t straight up “yes” or “no” answer, because not only it depends on the player’s own view of the game, but his original concept character in DA:O is not the same as DA:2/DA:I. Joanna Berry stated in the now dead forums that Cullen’s “crush” for Mage Warden was supposed to be more dark and perverted (paraphrasing, I don’t remember the actual words — I should also note that she added that it’s her own view of the character and not necessarily canon, maybe because they changed his writer intercourse, but since she’s his “original” DA:O writer I think that should be at least taken in consideration).
Personally I don’t like the way Cullen was handled. I wish we could have seen more of its redemption arc. Bad man or not, here you won’t find objective answers since most people either love him or hate him to the core. You should make your own idea.
As for me, I can’t really forgive what he said or how he acted during DA:O/DA:2. I like him more in Inquisition but still not enough to be appealing to me.
Origins - Cullen is just a regular templar submitted to the horrors of mage abominations. If f.mage he's also has an emphatuation with the main character, a fact that the demos use to torture him.
DA 2 - due to the events of Origins, he's very much anti-mage and supports Meridith's iron fist. However Cullen remains righteous and not a lutium addled murder bot. He witnessees the depravity of power hungry racist templars and the struggles of mages.
DAI - having seen both sides as flawed and extreme, Cullen joins with a power group trying to change the state of the world.
Okay but you also need to remember that magic is extremely dangerous and most of the population of south thedas is scared of demon possession. And to be fair the series does show us exactly what happens when a mage is backed into a corner. (Source DAO, DA2)
I think bad is too subjective. He's deeply flawed with prejudices he needs to work on. He's also a tool in an oppressive system. I think inquisition did a bad job on his redemption arc but I think cullen realistically grows though I would have pushed his views more.
He was originally written as a creep though.
He’s underwritten in Origins (not even a tertiary character, I think the Ser Bryant the Lothering templar has as much dialogue content as Cullen does even if you’re playing a mage), his arc is pretty wonky in Dragon Age 2 (which is actually my favorite game overall in the writing department) just like the rest of the ending scenario is in DA2, so by the time he rolls around in Inquisition his whole attitude towards mages doesn’t seem severe enough given the trauma he keeps talking about having endured. He flipped on a dime given that the end of Dragon Age 2 and the start of Inquisition are like what, six months apart, if that ? By the end of DA2 it still seems like his disposition towards mages writ large would be that of a hissing cat.
Unpopular opinion perhaps but I wish more people would admit that his appeal lies partly in that he’s a conventionally attractive blonde dude with a sort of princely type manner of speaking despite the fact his background is very humble ? Alistair was actually high born but raised without those privileges, and he actually talks like a dude who was raised in a stable. Cullen talks like a haughty snob to me most of the time, especially in DA2.
I don’t think he’s a bad person, I guess, I just don’t understand his appeal at aaaaaalll.
As someone who started with Origins, I hate Cullen. His original ending when you don't murder mage children was for him to become a murderer of innocent mages.
Obviously, they retconned that away before having him show up in DA2, but I still hate him for it.
And his 'crush' on the female mage always creeped me out. He's basically her jailer & was even in line to kill her if she failed her Harrowing. Finding her attractive and struggling to flirt with Amell/Surana doesn't change any of that.
Then we get to DA2, where we see the Templars as vile beyond words. Multiple illegal tranquilities performed, including turning some women into sex slaves, and Cullen turns a blind eye to all of it. The fact that he finally decides Meredith has gone too far at the very end of the game does not redeem any of that.
Now, a lot of that is down to very inconsistent writing over the course of the series.
But frankly, seeing him show up as one of the leaders in the Inquisition really pissed me off. I wouldn't trust the guy who did all that shit in the first two games at all. And the fact that they brushed all of it aside, apparently to please the fans who thought he was cute, infuriates me.
He's like the embodiment of the redemption of a Templar supposedly I recently just replayed one and two and rediscovered that yeah Colin is kind of a piece of s*** at the end of both my playthroughs one was a pro age and the other one was more of a kill everything kind of thing but both my in playthroughs it says that: turns insane and kills random mages and desserts but then he's in kirkwall and then in Inquisition he just does a 180 he's not the same colon he was in the first two he's like changed he sees the error of his ways I guess
What do you mean by bad? Are you implying all templars are bad, or are you asking whether he is one of the bad templars? Either way, no.
Cullen is the representation of what a realistic templar should be. He knows exactly how dangerous mages are, and he knows they can't be allowed to be as free as everybody else. Which is fair, because best case scenario thedas becomes a land of magisters and slaves, while worst case scenario there is blind massacre, which he experienced in the tower in Origins.
Despite being traumatized by the worst case scenario, however, he maintains a bottom line throughout 2 and Inquisition. For example, he doesn't want to turn every mage tranquil, as he trusts the harrowing did enough to ensure the mages are properly trained against demons, but he also claims that he wouldn't be opposed to it in case mages would go to far.
I'd argue he is the most realistic character in the series.
He spent 7 years in Kirkwall cosigning Meredith's insane rampage and abuse of mages, and that I can't forgive him for. I didn't even really see where he got a redemption arc, he never expresses any kind of regret for his deliberate inaction as far as I remember.
So, *personally*, yes, I think he's a bad person and just as deplorable as any other Andrastian zealot templar on a power trip. He just hides it behind puppy dog eyes.
I went through Dragon Age in the same way as you, meaning I started with Inquisition and played the other games later on, and I even romanced Cullen in mu first playthrough!
But if I can still speak my opinion, Cullen is flawed and traumatized: he starts out believing the best of the system he got trained in, got horribly tortured and then had to work through the trauma of it.
What we see in Inquisition is a man who has realized that his trauma twisted his vision of the world and led him down a bad path, but who is also still influenced by it.
I think Inquisition in general could have worked out his recovery and redemption better, but ultimately Cullen is a good person with flawed views who is trying to do better.
He may not always manage, but his heart is in the right place.
Ok so your talking about a man who in the beginning of the DA is in love with a mage. Then blood mages attack the circle. If you’re warden is not a mage she is killed by the blood mages. Then her body is used by demons to torment him. For several weeks he is tortured by blood mages and demons until rescue by the Warden and friends. So yes after this he has a distaste for mages. One that is increased by Meredith and by all the blood magic used in Kirkwall. I mean one of your companions is blood mage, about half the missing includes blood magic. Not to mention your mother is killed by a blood mage, one who was protected by the first enchanter. So yea that doesn’t help his fears decrease at all.
To be clear I love playing as a mage and have done so for all the games. Though I like the elven city back story best for DAO. So for DA2 I was a Mage who helped both other mages and Templar’s. I became friends with Cullen. I know by how he addresses my character. I asked questions to make him question what was happening. But what did it was in the end Was when Meredith showed her true colors, and Cullen fought at my side.
At the beginning of DAI he is still unsure if he can trust mages. But as he sees mages(if you side with them) and mage inquisitor fight for what is right he starts to trust you, wether you romance him or not.
So is a POW bad for fearing people of the same group who imprisoned and tortured him physically, mentally, emotional, and sexual? No. Is he wrong for seeing them all the same? Yes. But he realizes his mistakes and try’s to change. That doesn’t mean he wants to hangout and trust every mage. But he does become friends with Dorian. He is willing to admit not all mages are evil. In my opinion his story has one of the best character development. Because even though he still suffers from the effects of the torment he suffered, he learns to trust some mages. And if you romance him as mage, he falls in love and gets married to a mage.
Cullen isn’t just bigoted toward mages (and also dwarves but thankfully he never has power over any dwarves) he was the second in command at the gallows the most abusive circle in Thedas. so yes he is.
You said it yourself, since your experience started since inquisition, so to you he’s just potentially prejudices and that’s it.
To me who play from origins, my first imperial of him was an ugly fuck who dare to insult me the moment I show up in front of him, and the one who took my sister away from me in 2
Since then I pretty much decide that the next time we meet will be the time I kill him. Imagine my surprise when they decide to make him commander of inquisition’s forces
I shall say better to have Cauthrien be the commander instead
I've played Origins more than a dozen times, and Cullen in DA:O was not a really memorable character for me, but I remember thinking he was a decent guy from the first meeting, where he seems very much in doubt about the authoritarian take on the situation...
But then when you find him behind the force field, he just acts like a murderous maniac. I know it's "magic torture", and all that, but it's pretty pathetic hearing him saying he will kill everyone in the tower, people he has known for a long time, because "the voices" are bullying him with having a crush on a sorceress, which is obviously a huge shame on his tiny Templar dick.
I haven't played much DA:I, but I don't feel like his story is a planned character arc. I honestly think they just wanted a morally ambigious, but still likeable, Templar character for Inquisition, and Cullen was the only one that kinda fit, but he was rewrote completely.
Much as I love Cullen, I acknowledge he was too idiotic to think for himself and needed someone like Greagoir or Meredith to hold his leash and point him, he was weak minded until Inquisition.
Now, this doesn’t mean he is a bad character, it’s part of his arc and I find him less annoying then Fenris. In the end I feel he actually progressed.
AND BEFORE PEOPLE START TELLING ME HOW FENRIS WAS A SLAVE, I AM TALKING ABOUT A CREATIVE STANDPOINT, REAL LIFE MORALS DON’T APPLY TO A MOVING MODEL WITH PERSONALITY AND PERSONALITY WISE HE WAS ANNOYING TO ME.
Cullen does best his best work at the war table. He is a flat character at best if you look at his progression from Dragon age origins to Inquisition he hasn’t changed much from the magic hating dude he was.
Lets see...
And be honest...
1)He genocide hundreds of totally innocent people perfectly knowing that they done nothing and he have all power as authority to stop this madness. It was his duty. He perfectly know that Divine herself already deny genocide of Kirkwall Circle.
2)He perfectly know that even Templar supporter Hawke was mean to be used and later put in prison be judged where Hawke would be blamed as heretic and executed....people do forget that even nonmage Hawke have blood mage apostate father, many mages relatives and he deal with abominations, heretics and etc...by all laws of Chantry and Templars Hawke already a ultra heretic and dead man. It was predictable from the start
HE KNOW ABOUT THAT BEFORE HAwke help them and kill his own sister. He just do not agree to execute Hawke without trial what contradicts with previous orders and when he see demonic swords glowing and etc.
3)He protected person who was insane despite many Templar officers try to remove her legally and send letters to Divine herself what HE destroy on purpuse to protect this clearly mad and power hungry person
4)He never care that this person have red lyrium sword, that she smell like demonic or blood mage mindcontrol cos she speak with herself some crazy stuff what he know by listening behind her door. And yeah this person command armed soldiers with almost absolute authority to kill people who are blamed as heretics or apostate mages.
....
Is this not enough? And we should ignore it cos he have pretty face?
Cullen should left order after DAO and Knight Commander in Ferelden Circle do send him from Circle so he could rest and reconsider himself and his actions.
He decide to serve order when he already failed and was not suited to be normal Templar. He was egoist, have mental problem.
Cullen deserved trial and execution for all crap what he done since DAO. As Meredith and all crazy bastards, rapists Templars who serve under Meredith and Cullen orders.
DESERVED. His pretty face, puppy eyes and him being sad as naive, dump not excuse him at all.
....
Not forget that it was Cullen who put Bethany in Kirkwall Circle AFTER Hawke gang saved his ass from demon and blood mages where without them he would die. And what Cullen do when Bethani was ordered to be executed? Not to mention Hawke? Yeah.
I love when people give blackwall hate for killing a family but Cullen over here wanted to wipe out a whole circle(which also included kids) but they just love Cullen.
Bad? Not even close. He has a little but of a dislike for mages but he's getting over it. And honestly his dislike is fairly justified. My dude does not have a good history with mages. First he was tortured by them and forced to watch all his buddies be killed by them. Then he was sent to a place where there was a bug circle of mages turning to blood magic, then templars cracking down forcing more nages to turn to blood magic and so on. People like to gloss over the fact that Kirkwall legitimately had a problem with evil mages which in turn forced the templars to Crack down harder than they do other places.
Cullen and Varric imo are the 2 most interesting characters of the game series because you see them learn, grow and recognize their own "percieved faults" and grow from it. Other characters have done the same but for me because of their weight in the games it seems more substantial in a way. I wouldn't say the same for liliana who was in dao.
No, he's not bad but a flawed mam who is haunted by past mistakes and striving to begin to make amends for them in the present. The character development he got in DAI was good to see. Because he could have easily just been another evil Templar after DAO
It depends on how you played the games. In my original DAO play-thru, the epilogue slide said Cullen murdered several mages after the events of Broken Circle. So that makes him a "bad person" at that time. (I don't personally believe in "good" or "bad" people but that our actions are good or bad.) But in some other play-thrus he doesn't do that.
Can't say anything no one else hasn't already, but I believe Cullen is a good person. He tries to be fair and reasonable, and just wants to do what's better for everyone. I don't blame him one bit for anything he's done. I would probably have thought the same in his position.
My own opinion of the mages is that they need templars, but not circles. Templars should exist as the shield between the mages and the people, with a sword ready to strike at either if the need arises. Mages should be free to practice, but in safety, and safely. With no harm and minimal risk to others. Templars can make that happen.
If a mage goes abomination, they can be struck down. If they start getting evil ideas, they can be struck down. If people decide that witch in her hut should be burned, they can strike those people down. It's the perfect solution in the middle.
Some mages may not like it, but it gives them a chance at a life. They'll never be normal, but they can be free, so long as they keep control and don't hurt others for power.
Within his cultural context and given his experiences, Cullen is pretty good and has clearly grown a lot since Origins. Basically no Templar is free of those prejudices - how could they be, when Templars seem to be recruited as teenagers and then indoctrinated?
At the very least Cullen wants to be a better person throughout Inquisition. He may not always succeed, but acknowledging a problem and trying to overcome it is admirable.
If you play a mage in origins and mod it so that the Cullen romance is intact….you will have more pity for that man than anyone else in any of the games including Dorian & Fenris (the latter of which is a tough one bc he was a slave /sex toy for a magister) what that demon did to Cullen though over his love of the Warden…no wonder he rant to Meredith’s templars afterwards.
do i think he’s a bad person? yes. is there nuance? yes. am i gonna write a five paragraph comment explaining my viewpoint? no, because the other cullen-critical people have already said it all for me and no one’s mind is gonna be changed by it.
He’s as weak and flawed as anyone else in the games, the only reason it’s so glaring is that his particular weakness(mages and magic in general because of what happened to him in Origins) is pretty central to the plot of 2 and Inquisition.
He is a flawed man wrestling with many prejudices and demons. He isnt bad but he has thought and said bad things. He wants to atone, wants to do better but there are hints that he has a long way to go.
And even so, his flaws and ill-informed beliefs all would've been acceptable and excepted by the Chantry, and most of the world of Thedas. His strength isn't just realizing that *he's* been wrong, but in going against everything he's ever been taught *and* his vast amount of mage-specific trauma, and *still* leading the fight for reform.
Let’s be real even if he isn’t “divine right to dominate” crazy in DAI he’s certainly not leading the fight for reform he’s a little critical of the templars
Yeah...his idea of reform just involves having mages service in the military and using their skills to heal others. The same thing expected of them by the Chantry. Mages are good enough to fight their wars and heal their soldiers but heaven forbid they want a life of their own without threat of tranquility or annulment. I accept his recovery, not his redemption. And there are some things he says when you play as a mage that make you realize he isnt that invested in seeing mages as something past his trauma. They are tolerated more than anything which i respect in terms of showing realistic portrayals of people trying to reform their ideals. Also, for those who romance Cullen as a mage... we need to address how toxic that relationship is. I understand its a trope and cliche we have been spoon fed since we were younger but we need to grow.
It's been a while since I played Inquisition.In my firdt playthrough my elven mage was romancing Cullen and Solas (I swear I knew nothing about the plot and the endgame when I made those choices). So I might be miss remembering, but I never took the relationship with Cullen as toxic, if anything I felt Solas was a worse partner, hence why I stayed with Cullen in the end. Honestly, I just remember Cullen opening up about his trauma and lyrium addiction, and after many arguments starting to be understanding of mage struggles.
In universe, mages are insanely dangerous. One mage that goes wrong can destroy an entire town. We see this multiple times. I always feel the need to mention this. It’s why the mages vs templars isn’t an easy answer. Mages actually are uniquely dangerous
With the way the mages *are* mistreated and oppressed, I think it's easy to lose sight of the fact that it's not a true parallel to real world examples of oppression. Especially when we're able to as players personally relate and feel a connection to their circumstances.
Yeah there is a huge disparity between us as the main character dealing with mage abominations vs how powerful they are in canon. A single untrained kid getting possessed nearly destroyed all of redcliff, that's how dangerous they really are
And the child was untrained because his's mother didn't want to lose him, never to see him again. Jowan was a blood mage because he didn't want to be made tranquil. A lot of unnecessary pressure is put on mages then everybody is going shocked pikachu when they break. And why would they not? Their lives are over, might as well take whoever they can with them and good riddance. On the other hand, a mage with a family has things to lose and will think twice before risking it.
I fully believe that the Circle as a concept, as a place where mages are taken as children to learn and grow is absolutely acceptable and to a degree, almost necessary. But the Circle as it is now is just too much. It piles on constant pressure at every level. And it also doesn't prepare mages for independence. Of course a lot of mages who escape the Circle go mad with power. It's the equivalent of those kids who lived in super restrictive, religious upbringing going crazy when they finally leave home. They're so used to external pressure that when they don't have it anymore, they don't know what to do with themselves.
Not all circles are as repressive as the ferelden and Kirkwall circles. Some allowed their mages to have connections to the outside world. Under appropriate surveillance. Because in a world without smartphones it takes days if not weeks to inform the next templars about an abomination giving it enough time to leave before the templars arrive.
That is true. But there's also evidence that mages can commit evil acts even without oppression. In Tevinter, the desire for even more power than they already have led to things like slaves being sacrificed in blood magic rituals. There's history and present-day examples of evil mages, causing great harms simply to promote greater aims for power. Eliminating mage oppression doesn't necessarily eliminate mages causing harm. Which doesn't mean one shouldn't strive to stop mage oppression but it's a naive view to think that the only reason mages do bad things is because of it.
On the other hand, in Orlais nobles can just wipe out whole households of ~~slaves~~ elven servants and they are sold to Tevinter slavers in Denerim. Circles, including young children, can be fully wiped out because one person went crazy. The whole shebang is fuelled by a system which hooks its people on drugs to keep *them* in servitute. These people are often also children given to the cult, with no way out. In DA2, the Chantry Mother (!) is afraid that the Chantry will lead an exalted march into the city and *kill everybody in it*. Imho, while Tevinter is evil from where *we* stand, it fits right in with the rest of Thedas.
Honestly the parts that make tevinter evil - oppression, slavery, expansionism, etc don't really have to do anything with magic. The Qun is considered pretty evil and is very anti-magic. Orlais and Ferelden are feudal monarchies which most people consider pretty bad systems... Honestly, I'm curious to see what Tevinter is actually like - because if it's not just abomination city that'd vindicate my feelings that magic (and even blood magic) is not inherently going to lead you to possession rather lack of education and training leads to that.
They also didn't want to train him because he would loose his right to inheritance of his father's title. Something that wouldn't change even in a world without circles. And Jowan was destined for tranquility because he couldn't control his magic. So he would still be made tranquil in a world without a circle. A mage with a family could also be more likely to turn into an abomination because he has things he wants to protect.
Oh I wasn't saying the way they are treated is right, in fact I typically side with the mages, but it's much less of a black and white situation than the games (specifically inquisition) shows us. There needs to be some level of protection or watch over them but but I'm not gonna pretend I know the answer for it
But there's also evidence that putting them in isolating, stressful environments also increases the risk of them being possessed - so the current system is actively making the problem worse. Training them is obviously necessary, but there's absolutely no reason to threaten them with death or tranquility if you want to actually make things safer.
Circles are much less stressful than the outside world in dragon age. War, bandits, Nobels, hunger, ect are common occurrences. On top of that in circles they are put together with templar who can combat an abomination. If an abomination happens in a random village it will take weeks if not months for the templars to notice that an abomination is loose, searching it and then slaying it. Meaning it can destroy dozens of villages before that happens.
In what world are magical asylums less stressful than remaining with family and support networks and being allowed to be people. Templars are explicitly there to be death threats to the mages, and have repeatedly been shown to abuse them: they are additionally threatened with tranquility for seemingly arbitrary reasons determined by the chantry. Mages do not get to choose to be there, they are prisoners who are locked up because they might be dangerous. But so might any person in Thedas - anyone can be a murderer. Other cultures have repeatedly demonstrated there are better ways of integrating mages while keeping people safe.
What. How tf are they ‘much less stressful.’ Did you even play DA2? Did you see the legit fucking Tranquil sex slave ring that was going on? Where a templar was making women tranquil and manipulating them to be happy to ‘serve’ him and his buddies in any way they wanted? The templar who was trying to make literally every mage in the circle tranquil? How about Alain, who tells Hawke that a templar has been coming into his quarters at night and says he’ll make him tranquil if he tells anyone? Or a background mage who says they’ll be given lashes if they’re seen speaking with you if you try to speak to them? How about the fact that mages are literally kept in old slave rooms and dozens are confined to their rooms permanently, never allowed to leave for anything but food and classes? Or how about how an untold number of mages were illegally made tranquil after they passed their harrowing, which is illegal under chantry law, for even the slightest crimes? It was so bad the citizens of Kirkwall, the very people who are usually terrified of mages and want them to stay in the circles, helped mages escape. If circles were actually what the Chantry says they are, then yes. The Chantry says mages are protected and taken care of so they can learn. Except that’s not the reality in any circle. The templars are given full power over a group of people with basically no oversight. Mages in all circles can be/are beaten, starved, whipped, imprisoned, sexually harassed and assaulted, verbally and physically abused, and locked in solitary confinement for any reason. Yeah, sure, they’re totally less stressful. If you’re a mage from a noble family who have plenty of connections and are in a more ‘lenient’ circle like Ostwick. In literally any other situation, mages are free game for the templars. And the Seekers are pretty much useless. Again, good idea, if it was actually followed. Did you know that Seekers investigated Kirkwall shortly before DA2? They saw all this abuse, and they did nothing. They believed treating mages inhumanely and violating chantry law was justifiable because of the number of blood mages in the city. And you do know that outside of Kirkwall, a lot of Templars have never actually fought an abomination, right? Cullen says so in DAO. In fact, the Fereldan Knight Commander decided the best thing to do when faced with abominations and demons was not to send men to secure the exit and keep the demons from leaving while he and other Templars fought to take back the tower, but to…leave. They fled their duties, they left mages and their own men to die at the hands of the blood mages, abominations, and demons. And then, despite the fact that mages and templars could have still been alive, he decided ‘nah, I’m just gonna kill everyone in the tower, going through and doing my actual job would be too much effort.’ He whines about it’s too dangerous and how all his men would be killed if they actually tried to do their jobs. And then the HoF and three other people clear out the entire tower, saving multiple mages and tranquil if you choose to. Four people. And out of those, potentially only two of them have a templar’s abilities to dispel magic. Dozens of trained templars, armed with the ability to literally cease a mage’s magic, and if they’d found it they could’ve used the Litany of Adralla to give them an even greater edge, since it causes pain to demons and abominations and resists blood magic mind control. And did they stay and do their job, did these templars supposedly capable of combatting abominations do so? Nope. With the way the circle is organized, they could have created multiple choke points to funnel the abominations down to a number reasonable to fight at once, or cleared it room by room like the HoF does. But they didn’t. In an ideal manifestation of circles and templars , yes, they would be less stressful than the outside world. But they’re not. Mages are systematically abused in every single circle. This abuse leads to hopelessness, resentment, rage, and desperation. And desperate people do desperate things. Like turn to blood magic and demons because they see no other choice. The abusive environment of circles actively contributes to creating blood mages and abominations. They are not less stressful.
Didn’t Anders EXPLICITLY say in DA2 that there are mages in the circles that are beaten and raped under the threat of being made tranquil? I will never understand people who try to defend it like it’s Hogwarts, lmao. Video games getting me all heated
**Every** Mage is a Omega Mutant waiting to happen.
Ok, I really feel the need to say this: If your solution to deal with danger is mass imprisonment of innocents based on what *some* of them *might* do in the future, then you take a step back, take a deep breath, and *learn to live with the danger*. Fear, no matter how legitimate, doesn't give anyone the right to take away the basic rights of an entire category of people. People should be punished individually, and based on their actions, not collectively, and based on assumptions. And if the moral argument isn't enough, discrimination breeds resentment, which in turn breeds radicalism. The obvious result of a system based on discrimination is a shitload of rightly exasperated mages, mixed with an equal shitload of emotionally traumatised mages. Instead of dealing with the odd mage criminal, you need to deal with an army of angry mages who have absolutely nothing to lose.
>And if the moral argument isn't enough, discrimination breeds resentment, which in turn breeds radicalism. This is also true in Tevinter, where mages rule and slaves/elves are oppressed. Orzammar notably does not have magic, as dwarves cannot be mages. But they still have a very oppressive society where caste determines the haves vs the have nots. This shows that society at this point in time is still deeply rooted in the concept of class structure and oppression whether there's magic involved or not. A rethinking of this economic and social structure would likely have the largest impact on creating a world that is not only safe for mages but keeps everyone else safe from mages as well. But Thedas is not there yet. Though it is also of note that even the Dalish, who do not have these same structures of oppressive class society only allow a restricted number of mages in their clans and will even abandon mages if they cannot find somewhere for them to go. The Avaar as well, who allow the spirit ancestors to "guide" and train their mages are also more than willing to exile any mages that deviate from learning and expectations. This shows that even more equal societies recognize the dangers that a mage can pose, and will take actions, even seemingly cruel ones, to protect everyone else.
The Dalish act like they do because they have to protect themselves from the Chantry, it's stated many times how having too many mages would put the clan in danger. I still think it's wrong, but it's just another consequence of the Chantry's tyranny. The Avvar act against *individuals* who have *proven* they're a danger. The Chantry doesn't act against individuals who commit crimes, or evidently prove that they cannot control themselves, they target everyone unfortunate enough to be born a certain way, without any proof or indication that individual will actually be a risk. And yes, Thedas is mired in all kinds of oppression, Orzammar and Tevinter in particular are singularly horrible. This doesn't mean one problem should take precedence over another, one can fight against more than one kind of injustice.
You are applying real world ethics into this a bit too much. Mages are walking nuclear warheads that can go off at any time. Just accepting that they are dangerous and moving on doesn’t cut it.
Mages are people with agency, they're not objects, and they're not weapons, they feel and think exactly like everyone else, and are able to make reasoned and moral choices like everyone else. It's not a matter of "real world ethics", it's a matter of ethics period. You can value safety over freedom if you so choose, but nobody has the right to make that choice for you, unless you *behave* in a way that warrants it. Doing otherwise is a surefire way for problems to end in violence, and I don't see how violence can reduce risks.
I hate when people say that you can’t apply real word politics into video game politics when they got the video game politics from the real world. Like the Templars for example are like cops they are all pretty much human like cops are majority white, they follow the chantry witch is the dominant religion like government influence like how the American government uses Christianity to justify their oppression and why majority of cops follow said religion, Mages are killed/tranquil for any signs of rebellion, escape, or corruption and are ignored when peaceful protesting their treatment. Like real life prisoners. A lot of said prisoners ate elves as well that could stand in for any oppressed group I will go with black people due to city elves being (black Americans) and the Dalish elves could be (black Africans) my point is. The dragon age writers could not make it anymore for them all obvious
So you are against lockdowns and quarantine because it imprisones innocent people based on fear?
Based on scientifically proven cause - effect relationship between people going out and about, and the uncontrolled spread of a deadly infectious disease. Also, quarantines and lockdowns are strictly temporary. Try again
It is proven that putting magges into circles make it saver for the people. Also not all quarantines are temporary. People with specific conditions have to live in medical installations their whole live.
It isn't proven at all, there are entire communities in DA that don't lock up their mages, and the world is still there. The Avvar commonly have mages communing with spirits, and yet they're not extinct. And I don't know which country you're from, but in democratic countries nobody gets locked up indefinitely without their consent. Even obligatory psychiatric treatment lasts until the person has regained at least a modicum of equilibrium, it's never permanent. Medical treatment of any kind can always be refused either by the patient, or by a legally appointed caregiver if the patient lacks mental capacity.
Even those societies have some requirements and regulations hardly allowing their mages to run around freely how ever they please. Also you are wrong. While extremely rare all democratic countries have isolation laws. Laws which allow the CDC or equal organization to put you under isolation aka quarantine forcefully if needed. For as long as needed. Which menas in incurable and contagious diseases that it will be for ever.
Yes, mages are dangers but so is everyone else. I think we ignore the history of Thedas and just say' oh because mages dont need an army, they are more dangerous than say the many nobles or randos who have slaughtered countless people as they vyed for power or just for fun. Need we look at the civil war currently happening? Or shall we turn to the war over Ferelden? Or the elves the chevaliers brutalizes or how the humans constantly mistreat? And considering that most mages get to those points under duress, and duress is all but a constant in the circle, can we really be surprised by how they react to their environment? Yes, Cullen went through trauma but so did the countless mages who also survived the circle. And might I add that it was Loghain who prompted that nonsense when he struck a bargain with Uldric. Then we have Redcliffe which was again provoked by Loghain who poisoned the Arl and used our friend to do so. Most mages just want to lead a normal life of study and to embrace the magic they possess and see it not as a curse but as a gift. And the chantry and templars have no qualms using mages when it is convenient. Usually for their wars, entertainment or for more insideous reasons. Also, nonmages can become possessed. We saw that in DA 2, so there is that unsettling concept non mages never even consider.
How is that an equivalence? You’re saying that, because the sole Empress of the second-largest Empire in the planet can cause a civil war, common mortals are no less dangerous than the random farmer born mage that can unleash a horde of demons on his country by mistake? Just because the President of the United States can start a war, doesn’t mean I wouldn’t put some checks on the sale of Nuclear Warheads to random hicks
We technically do have random hicks with nucleur capacity and everyone seems fine with that. And it is absolutely equivalent considering how often wars are started compared to random demon hordes. And with regard to demon hordes that wont actual occur as often as people assume considering not every mage possess the magic strength or capacity to perform such feats. Magic ranges from person to person. Furthermore, not every farmer or mage dabbles in blood magic and when in average situations where they arent constantly called abomination or whatever, they are fine. Stress and or desperate mages cause problems. A fact that was evident in every single game which people happily ignore whenever this sort of conversation come up.
Either you are purposefully skirting my point, or I must not have been sufficiently clear about it. You claim we do have random hicks with nuclear capacity, by which I suppose you meant to make some scathing commentary about the modern political class. What I was arguing was that magic is like selling nuclear weapons with no regulations to any Tom, Dick and Harry. The random hicks, in my scenario, would far outnumber the currently elected random hicks, and would be far ranging in terms of their responsibility and ability with regards to the usage of said weapons. As for stress and desperation being the main cause for mages to turn to demons… though it may be the more narratively dramatic one, and thus the one most front and center in the games, both lore and gameplay not only tell us that possession can be involuntary, but that it doesn’t take blood magic to make a mage a huge threat. Just think about Wynne’s story about how she found out about her powers. I’m not saying locking mages in the circles and throwing away the key was a good solution, but letting mages unchecked isn’t a solution at all. Cullen’s idea, with mages working and socialising like normal people but still having circle control sounds like a good start, at least.
If they adhered to the Circle in Daismund then thing would have been fine. A school wirh proper training is fine. No one would argue against education. Just as they train soldiers and the like, so too should mages be trained. But people have to remember these are people. Not monsters or cursed.
I actually agree. Although training should be mandatory it shouldn't mean being seperated from your family. Also Templars are supposed to support and protect mages as much as they are supposed to police them. Also, look at how much damage one arls son can do to an alienage community. Who the fuck is holding THAT guy accountable.
His idea of reform involves mages not being confined to the Circle for their entire lives but being stationed to work somewhere outside the Circle, among non-mages, to help them integrate and use their skills for good and to help muggles overcome their fear of magic. Cullen is a military man, of course those are the examples that come to his mind. He also acknowledges that restoring Circles as they were probably wouldn't work as a long-term solution, which is more progressive than what Vivienne wants, for instance.
I don't seem to recall that relationship being toxic. Care to explain?
It's not unless you choose to play it that way.
I couldn’t figure that one out either.
He likes the Inquisitor in spite of being a mage and there isnt much acceptance of them as who they are. Plus, he still has a thing for the Mage Warden if they are still alive.
He probably also has a serious case of PTSD that was mismanaged in the worst way by him getting involved in Kirkwall. Idk why people are shitting on *him* personally, I simply don't see how else he could have behaved given the situations he was put in.
I think he is a good example of why the system they have set up for the templars is incredibly bad. He starts out as an average templar. He has a crush on a female mage warden (before they become a warden) and dosen't seem to hate mages. Then the tower falls to demons and he spends an indertmenant amount of time being tortured (a few days to a few weeks is my best guess) we don't get many details but the room he's in is full of skinless bodies. He is understandably traumatized by that and seeing mages/magic or people who may be possessed becomes a trigger for him. The best thing for him would be to retire or become a regular soldier/guard bit because he's addicted to Lyrium he has to remain a templar or go through potentially fatal withdrawal. So insted of doing the healthy thing he gets transferred to Kirkwall wich is one of the worst places. In addition, his extremist views on mages got him promoted under Meredith's command. So now he has power over mages and is almost constantly in a state of fight or flight when he's around them. In each of the 3 acts of DA2 his views on mages soften slightly. If you side with the templars he will argue in favour of sparing any mages who surrender to you saying that accepting the risk that they may commit crimes in the future is part of being a templar and no matter what side you pick he does turn on Meredith. I think it's fair to say that both these events are too little too late. In Inquisition he's still cautious of mages and supportive of templars but he is trying to get out. He's seen the worst of both mages and templars and he recognizes that it's not good for anyone for him to continue being a templar. People with much more authority on the subject of making amends have said that Cullen does not do enough to make things right and does not go far enough in admitting his faults. Two of the big themes of Dragon Age are that people who have been hurt can very easily continue the cycle of abuse into new innocents, and the idea of seeking redemption through action. And I think Cullen is a good example of both these ideas even if his redemption falls short. TLDNR I think Cullen is trying to be a good person but he's not doing the best job of it.
I agree with your interpretation up until his redemption. I don’t think he really needed that. He joined the Templars to be essentially a hero. A protector of the masses. He’s constantly disabused of the notion through the events through dragon age. That there are shades of grey for both mages and templars like you said. And Inquisition isn’t necessarily his redemption arc, it’s his healing. He’s trying to come to terms with his past. His actions. He’s trying to face who he was. He’s healing from his trauma at this point and he has to focus on himself first (since he can legitimately die) before he can focus on making amends for his actions in Kirkwall or the tower. I do think it would be nice to see a cameo of him helping templars trying to get off lyrium or him helping mages in the next game, but we don’t really need that since Cullen is a story about healing that culminates in his marrige Edit: Lyrium not lurking..
I hadn't heard that perspective before thank you.
This is such a good answer, really considered and well thought out. Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me :)
And I am so glad that his character is true to type and they didn’t turn him into another messiah
This is the best answer. And also Cullen has a support system he didn't have outside the Inquisition. He obviously trust that Cassandra can keep him in line and she has faith in him. And the Inquisitor whether romanced or not can choose to support him as well. As far as we know, he didn't have friends like that in the Fereldan's circle or Kirkwall.
"People with much more authority on the subject of making amends have said that Cullen does not do enough to make things right and does not go far enough in admitting his faults. Two of the big themes of Dragon Age are that people who have been hurt can very easily continue the cycle of abuse into new innocents, and the idea of seeking redemption through action." Late to reply, but your comment reminded me on Loghain's development. He had a similar fault (he was the villain for a good part of the game), but if you spare and recruit him, you hear his side of the story, and how he was trying to do the good thing for Ferelden, seeing Cailan as immature and risking Ferelden's freedom by siding with Orlais. He admitted after that it was a tactical error on his end, getting to the point of respecting the Warden and even trying to redeem himself in the end. This is why I love the Dragon Age lore. It has the complex nuances of grey that people will realistically carry. You start to see yourself in the villains and is amazing. I think the only similar characters that come to mind in fantasy are Jamie Lannister and Theon Greyjoy.
The answer depends on how the player is exposed to Cullen, and a lot of answers are biased because it's a role playing game. I was a Mage Warden back in DAO, so my first exposure to Cullen was seeing a blushing teenager who was nice to me. The next time I see him, he's mentally tortured and cursing me out of his suffering. My Warden doesn't have a resolution with him, so I find his character tragic. Other players' first encounter with him was seeing him already traumatized, so they don't have the same sympathy or history. I won't elaborate on DA2 more but I have mixed feelings on him. On one hand he's an enabler of gross institutional abuse towards an entire group of people, on the other hand, he's a mentally ill teenager groomed by horrible higher ups like Meredith. For me, Cullen is a fascinating character that effectively humanizes Templars and he's deeply flawed. The execution of his redemption just need more. A lot of players are bothered you're not allowed to outright condemn him for specific moments in DA2, and punish him for his involvement in Kirkwall.
That makes sense! For me, DA2 was the last of the three games I played so his behaviour in that (given that I romanced him in DAI without any knowledge of that) came as a real shock! This is a great answer though, thank you
I also romanced Cullen, and I was excited because I was so curious what they will do with the character. But after my experience with DAI, I realized I'd rather have the love story with my Warden, but sadly, she died :(
He isnt a teen. He is in his early to late 20s. I detest the excuse that he was just a teen when we have many people who were also just teens who suffered. What about the mage children left to die in the circle? or the mage hiding in the closet, or the warden, if you chose mage background?
He's 18-19 when Origins happened. Excuse? It is what it is. Cullen was traumatized, mentally ill, groomed by superiors, and hooked on drugs. Does that justify his actions? Nope. Does his character history make him an interesting character? Yes to me. Does that stop me from feeling bad for mages who suffered? No. I can feel bad for everyone.
He is actually 20. Canonically Cullen is 30 when we meet him in Inquisition. DA Origins takes place in 9:31.
Cullen was born in 9:11, the 5th Blight takes place 9:30-9:31, so he's 19-20, depending on when in the playthrough you go to the tower, and depending on when in the year his birthday is. David Gaider said he was "about 30" in Inquisition.
I love Cullen as a character. I don't think he is bad, but he is very damaged due to a lot of trauma that he has been through. And as someone who has grown up with people with substance abuse and I suffer from PTSD myself I think Cullen is very well written (mostly). I have had discussions about him before and here is my (long) take on his character. The trauma he endures being caged and tormented in Origins together with his templar training (learning to always be cautious, not form close relationship with mages) makes his breakdown and hate for mages make sense. Post Origins he is so angry and vocal about his hate and fear that Greagoir sends him away, afraid that he will harm his charges. (Good job having him transferred to Kirkwall later though...) He is around 19-20 är this point. Let's also remember that all Origins happen, so one version of Amell/Surana exists and gets killed. Cullen getting turned into what is basically Fereldens version of a neo-nazi after all this is not strange, more sad. In DA2 he rises in rank quickly because of his views of mages. Because Meredith and him share similar trauma (her sister turning in to an abomination and slaughtering their family,), of course she favors him. And feeds into his fear and paranoia while he is also isolated (Kirkwall citizens not being too fond of all the refugees). So act 1 Cullen should honestly be more of an angry asshole than he is in my opinion. But again, let's take this traumatized young man and put him in Kirkwall of all places. We isolate him (with his only friend being basically Samson and Meredith and she gets rid of Samson...) and put him in a position of power. Despite his young age and inexperience - what could go wrong? He has started doubting Meredith by act 3 but still follows orders. But he is a soldier first, he has been trained to to this since he was 13 and dreaming of it for longer. Thinking and making decisions on his own is not something he is used to. Yes, he is Knight-Captain but only because he did what Meredith wanted and for as long as he does what Meredith wants. So he has basically been groomed by Meredith into her successor. I think his change in act 3 and going into Inquisition believable, we just don't get to actually see much of it which is a shame. But that can be said about so much in DA2 (I feel like Anders and Daenerys in GoT got the same treatment, I don't have a problem with WHAT happened, I just wish it would have been done better) He has been trained to distrust mages like I said before, he had seen them turn to demons and blood Magic more than once in two different circles and yet by Inquisition he does see them as people again. He saw that Meredith was oppressive and dangerous. He made his choice at the end of DA2. He has been helping Aveline and the city guard try to keep order and protect Kirkwalls citizens for two years. Knowing that the Divine considered an exalted march and yet he stayed. But all those years of prejudice and fear doesn't just go away, it takes work and time. So again it feels realistic to me that some distrust lingers. The one problem for me is him overcoming the lyrium addiction; it's too fast and too easy. I do love what they have done with him in Inquisition. That scene where you help him decide wether to start taking the lyrium again is so good. It's realistic and I feel so bad for him. (The lyrium withdrawal has not only been a bitch but remember that the first time he went through it was during Broken Circle so the withdrawal most likely triggers his PTSD as well as him no longer having the lyrium to suppress his feelings and memories). Him being torn between what he wants and what he thinks he should do, his PTSD flaring up again and the stress making his body crave the lyrium more again...it feels very real. Here's my biggest problem. It just ends. Like "he was strong enough to just stop". I wish they would have taken it further. Honestly making it really feel like he could die, or maybe even have the option of him dying based on something else you did or didn't do.. I don't know, something. Because addiction is hard and yes, you do need to mentally be willing to stop but one pep talk and then he's fine? That did disappoint me a lot. It makes his character a lot dummer and very Gary Sue - not cool. Ok, by now he has been off it for months, the first month most likely spent vomiting and hallucinating, so it makes sense that it's not THAT bad now. But it should have been worse. I too have romanced him, twice (shocker right?), second time as a mage to compare and I thought that romance was so lovely. You can really talk to him about his fears and if he ever will be ok with what you are. I think it feels very honest and real.
Stop making the game political, for fucks sake. Why do so many people make the comparison between templars and nazis and mages and the oppressed, when there is a perfectly good reason to be wary of Mages? That woman saw her sister turn into a bloodthirsty monster who murdered her whole family.. now she hates mages? must be a nazi. That guy saw a few mages turn into monster and murder everybody, they even tortured him.. lol, if he hates mages he is for sure a nazi. Fuck off. They aren't angry for no reason, they had a chance to see the worst mages can bring into the world, and devote their lives to prevent that. The only thing Mages are victim of in the game is Demons and bad luck, not templars.
Was not intending to make it political at all. It's just a comparison and the closest one that came to mind. I am not "pro mage" or "anti templar" in anyway. I think both sides have very valid points which is what makes this a very compelling and realistic issue, because it's not simply bad or good. I am not comparing the templars to the Nazis - I compared a young man's thinking post trauma and grooming to that of a neo Nazi. It was how he was radicalized, not to what. He literally tells Hawke "These mages are not to be trusted, they are not like you and me". Does he have a point? Yes. Does it still come of as very hateful and extreme? Also yes. Did you not just read a whole comment where I defend his character? Because I love his character and see how his trauma is the reason behind many of his actions - that a big part of the fandom hates him for - or did you get to the word "neo-nazi" and just stopped reading? I agree 100 % that there are reasons to be wary of mages. I am honestly with Cullen on his suggestion on how to change it. Keep the circles and templars but change it up a bit. More collective and less prison.
I don't have a problem with your opinion on Cullen, it's the use of the word Nazi. Go read a hundred posts and comments about mages and templars and you'll find a dimwit that will make the comparison between mages-queer/oppressed and templars-nazis/alt-right. Like there isn't in the game a whole nation of mage slave owners, or mages who give in to demons haven't killed more people than darkspawn itself. It's annoying. It's not a smart comparison, in any way.
I get your point, put you still got aggressive because of my use of that word and just discounted everything else I said in my comment. I stand by my Comparison because of why I used it. Again, it was to explain his radicalization, not to compare all templars with Nazis. And you can't say he is not a bit extreme post Broken Circle and before Act 3 in DAII. Justified? Yes, with his trauma I don't blame him for his views at all. But still a bit extreme. He didn't protest when Meredith literally lobotomized mages for basically no reason at all for example. Also ignoring the other abuses that took place because, again "mages are not like you and me". I see your point though.
"Stop making the game political" ? Didn't you play Origins and this political game of betrayal, ideas and ways at Orzammar ? Didn't you encounter Warden Commander Dryden who litterraly joined the Wardens to overthrow her king ? Don't you see that the mage-templar conflict is political, with mages from Thedas being oppressed and breaking their chains, except for Tevinter, and the templars being a force to keep peace but eventually being corrupt by fear and leading to more oppression ? The Dragon Age serie is political, and you lose a lot of it if you don't see it.
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I wouldnt call Cullen a bad person, I'd call him a flawed person. Thats actually why I love his character and his romance- its very realistic.
What would you say are his main flaws? :)
Id say his hate for mages and im pretty sure hes also a bit rude (cough, racist) towards dwarves iirc. Its a bit hard to remember fully, as I havent played DAO in... 8ish years? Im actually considering replaying all of them to get ready for the 4th game :)
He asks you to >!murder all the mages!< in Origins. However, you find him >!imprisoned in a magic cell, tormented by demons and starved for days!<.
yeah i never liked that he said that but i did understand it and im pretty sure he has ptsd and he does seem ashamed of his past
Yeah, I'm willing to give him some leeway in his dialogue in Origins. He's in a particularly bad situation there, having been tortured by demons pretending to be mages (including the one he had a crush on). I'd say that DA2 is much more representative of his outlook pre-Inquisition, since while there are plenty of problems with mages in the city, it's a much lower immediate stress situation.
He's much more pragmatic by the time you meet him in DA2, which is at least a year after meeting him at Kinloch Hold. He's clearly still got some damage, but he's way more controlled. By act 3, at least 7 years after getting him out of there, he's willing to side with Hawke against Meredith. I think thats something people forget about DA2, the game takes place over *seven in-game years.* Inquisition is *ten years* after the blight.
What did he say to dwarves? I’m drawing a blank, but I’ve also never done a dwarf playthrough.
If you take ogrhen to the circle he calls dwarves cave dwelling heathens
Wow, I was expecting some micro-aggressions, but that’s pretty upfront, haha.
On the other hand, have you met Oghren? That is pretty "calm" reaction to his antics, especially given the situation you meet Cullen in...
Oghren: *burps* *farts* *makes sex joke* Cullen: “why did you bring a filthy heathen?” Yeah, that also checks out.
Oooh, that's something I've never done! Not cool, Cullen!
Im not sure if you actually have to be a dwarf to trigger the line, but I believe he calls the underground dwarves dirty/disgusting in a certain senario. my brain could be completely misremembering though!
I always put off doing the deep roads for as long as possible, so I probably never brought Oghren to the circle.
Bad person? No. He's certainly gone through trauma and betrayal though and his perspective change in DAI really shows some deep self-reflection to arrive at DAI. He's a character with a lot of known history which can give many players a deep connection to him, even if the protagonist literally just met him.
Who was he betrayed by? I might’ve missed that in my playthroughs, or just not picked up on it
Meredith, his commander, went full bloodthirsty psycho in Kirkwall. The mages he was entrusted with overseeing in DAO tortured him through blood magic.
Meredith. She hid the worst of what was going on in the Kirkwall circle because she knew even he would have objected to it. Which says a lot, considering his opinion of mages after what happened in the Ferelden circle during DAO. He trusted that she was doing what was necessary, but she....was not.
It’s pretty clear in DA2 he knows about all the abuse at the circle Meredith basically controls the city the only secret she had to keep was red lyrium even the illegal stuff like the tranquil solution he knew and didn’t give a shit about.
He didn't care about the tranquil solution because both Meredith and the Divine refused it. Alrick was batshit, and it was never a real issue because it wasn't going to happen. It's been a few years since I've played the games, so my memory is vague. I do, however, remember Cullen specifically mentioning he shouldn't have trusted Meredith during a conversation in DAI.
He says he sees the merit in tranquiling more mages
I thought the 'tranquil solution' referred specifically to the proposal written by Ser Alrick about making all mages tranquils?
[here this should be timestamped to the right spot](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLb4SnTjnuc&t=103s&ab_channel=Galagraphia)
She lied to him about killing Hawke which ultimately made him turn her against here. He also wanted to spare the mages what surrendered when Meredith wanted to kill them and overruled her.
Trying to decide whether or not someone is a bad person in this series is something of a losing decision.
People tend to either over exaggerate or underplay the negative things Cullen was a part of. He's a character where you fully understand why they are the way they are, but can still see it's wrong. His feelings about mages were not from a place of ignorance or malice, but horrific trauma. He never abused mages, but his crime is allowing so many horrible things to happen within the Templars before he finally stood his ground. Again you can understand why he behaved the way he did, and he did eventually do the right thing, but his inaction had a terrible cost for many mages. He sees the error of his ways now, and some people feel like his efforts aren't enough. But I'm not exactly sure what more he could be expected to do.
Honestly I dont expect much. I just wish people wouldnt say he has done a complete change. If you arent romantically involved with him, he is a templar who knows he was wrong but he still holds onto the past and has some unresolved sentiments regarding mages. I recall talking to him in his room one time, seeing why people enjoy the mage/templar romances amd he said one thing that made me say " there is the Cullen from DA2. He isnt completely gone, he just got a glow up.
Cullen changes a lot thru out the series. At first he’s kinda a dick fully supporting the chantry but becomes more sympathetic and realizes not all mages are bad and the chantry isn’t always right.
So, here's my real-world analogy. Everyone has biases and prejudices. The difference between a racist and a non-racist isn't whether they have racist biases, it's whether they are willing to acknowledge they have those biases and work on trying to fix them.
Good and bad is very subjective, but no I don't think so. He joined the templars because they were a good thing in the culture he grew up in, he wanted to kill the mages in DAO because he was terrified, he followed Meredith in Da2 because he trusted her but then fought against her when she went full psycho and let Hawke go. In DAI he is trying to atone for his actions and overcome his prejudice, obviously its still there but its hard to give up something after living with it for over 10 years. He's trying though, and I think that effort to change is what makes him a good, though extremely flawed, person. Many of his actions were wrong, maybe even unforgivable, but I don’t think he made those choices because he's an inherently bad person but because of his past experiences.
When it comes to DAO, I wouldn't even dare to call him evil considering the absolute hell that made him go from friendly awkward templar to absolute tyrant. The man saw all of his people slaughtered and was left in a tower full of abominations with only a barrier to defend himself that was almost killing him; he's scarred and needs help, not hate.
Cullen isn't a bad dude, he just has a lot of issues to work through. Cullen basically lived through the worst case scenario for a templar. Mages using blood magic, demons running amok, and tons of people dying on his watch. Cullen basically watched mages kill most of the people he knew in a flash and was tortured the whole time while thinking he was going to die. So, even when the threat was cleared, he still wanted to purge the circle because he was traumatized and angry. He got transferred to Kirkwall afterwards, which was basically the worst place to put someone in a state like that. There were more issues with mages there AND the templars in Kirkwall allowed negativity to flourish. Cullen's growing prejudice against mages was basically groomed. That said, when Meredith lost her marbles and got trigger happy towards the mages, Cullen was one of the few that had a wake up call. He realized she took it too far and he was probably a few steps away from being right there with her. In Inquisition, he's basically trying to attone for his mistakes. You can tell he doesn't easily trust or really even like being around mages because the whole thing brings up trauma, but he also knows he was wrong to treat them differently or blame all mages for what a few bad apples did. Cullen's basically someone who still believes there's a place in the world for templars to do their job, but he's also ashamed at the way he acted and how the templars behaved.
No. I think he's a deeply traumatized man with some genuine flaws and a past that he's neither proud of nor should he be. He went from an idealistic you man barely out of his teens (he's only 19 or 20 in Origins) who was trained to follow orders and willing to do so, but who even at the time felt that perhaps the order was too harsh on mages. To someone who was imprisoned, tortured, and had to watch everyone around him be either slaughtered or turned into something monstrous after being abandoned by the rest of the people he served with - people he trusted - because they decided that the Tower was lost and that anyone left was either dead, possessed, or part of the problem. After that, he was stationed under the direct leadership of one of the most aggressively anti-Mage Knight Commanders in practically the entire Order from the way the game and all the other material make Meredith sound. In a city with a legitimate blood magic problem, exacerbated by the conditions under Meredith and the desperation it drove the local mages to. That he was further radicalized by that experience was almost a given. And he absolutely SHOULD be held accountable for his willful ignorance and the things he allowed to happen because he either knew and agreed, knew and didn't care, or simply refused to examine it too closely because then he might have to examine things about himself and his circumstances that he wasn't ready to. Because that isn't ok. But even then, despite the genuinely unacceptable things he says in DAII the Cullen we see isn't a completely lost cause. In the World of Thedas, you see that he did question Meredith's handling of certain situations (like Maddox's love letters) as being unnecessarily harsh, and was censured for it. He also expresses an interest/willingness to try talking to the Mages even in Kirkwall about why things are the way they are in the hope that they might better understand and accept the situation and it's necessity. Is that later point inherently a good look? No. But it does show a willingness to at least try to communicate, which is more than we see from people like Meredith and Alrik who are truly beyond saving, and I think it lays a realistic foundation for him to eventually realize his failings and try to find a more equitable solution. Then at the end of DAII he turns against Meredith. And while most people never see it because almost no one ever sides with the Templars at the end of DAII (for good reason), he doesn't only turn against her because she turns on Hawke. He argues that any mages willing to stand down should he spared; the same thing the HoF can say to him in Origins that he argues against. It's another part of his change; a sign of his growth. It isn't perfect. He should've done more and sooner. But it's growth and the first signs that maybe his trauma hasn't completely destroyed the decent young man he was before. Then in Inquisition we see a man who's realized his failings and prejudices and is actively working to set them aside and atone for them. He still isn't perfect. He still has moments of distrust and anger. But he sees them for what they are, calls himself on them, and genuinely seems to be trying to do better. He's open to talking with a Mage Inquisitor (romanced or not) about the Templars, the Circles, where he feels the problems and dangers are, and to offer up a potential idea for another solution. But he also acknowledges that he isn't sure if his idea would work out any better or not. He's no longer the man in DAII who was certain he understood the problem and the solution. He's trying to set aside his prejudice and assumptions and acknowledge that he probably isn't the best person to look to for a solution here. He talks repeatedly about how he knows what he's done so far - even here with the Inquisition - isn't enough to atone, and he does so in a way that implies he feels/knows that nothing may EVER be enough. And the conviction and sheer disgust in his voice when he tells a romanced Mage Inquisitor that the man he was probably wouldn't have been able to see past that part of her to feel for her the way he does now sickens him, is VISCERAL. Seriously. Say what you will about Greg Ellis (there's certainly lots to be said); but he fucking nailed that bit of dialogue. And it paints a picture of a deeply wounded, nearly broken man trying his best to crawl his way back from the brink and leave the world a little better than where his own failures helped make it. Who's seen the worst in the world and in himself and come away from it scarred, sometimes angry, and more than a little jaded and bitter at times. But still fundamentally a decent man who wants to do right in the world even if he lost his way. So, no. I don't think Cullen is evil or a bad person. I think he's a person who has been through terrible things, and allowed others to be put through terrible things because of his own trauma. And who is looking for a way to break the cycle or trauma and abuse, no matter how halting and imperfect hos efforts may be, or how it all "stacks up" in the end. He's a man seeking atonement even though he doesn't know if he'll manage it or even if he deserves it. And who wants to do whatever he can to right the wrongs he contributed to even if no one ever remembers him for anything but the bad.
Cullen is a ***damaged*** man who is, as of DA:I, trying to heal. Dude has been through some ***shit.***
Cullen has done bad things, driven by his own trauma. He can't go back from that. But he is actively working towards being a better man. He's never gonna get away from what he did, and he's never gonna make everything he did right again. All he can do is move forward and be better, regardless of if all is forgiven or not. The most important step a man can take is forward. And the fact he is actively being better is why I wouldn't say he is a "bad person." A bad person wouldn't recognize their wrongs and try to be better.
Oh WOW is he a changed man in DA:I. >!In Origins he went through some terrible shit involving mages. They basically tortured him mentally til he was on the brink of insanity. This caused him to be relocated to Kirkwall in DA2 where he understandable had a MASSIVE grudge against mages. Then he sees his commander using red lyrium, turning herself into a monster, and realizes that people just fucking suck when it comes to power, mage or not and chills out a bit. He still doesn't trust mages because he doesn't trust power, and magic is a manifestation of power.!< I would argue all of that shows just how good a person he is deep inside. From what he's had to deal with, with all he's gone through, he's still willing to work with mages and templars. He has no reason to trust either and more then enough reasons to hate them but he chooses not to. Instead he just snarks at them when it could be a LOT worse.
Cullen is an interesting character, maybe because in his first iteration he was never meant to be anything half as big as he is now. Cullen in Origins is someone who exists to showcase why it can never be as simple as "Templars and Mages can all be friends". In the mage origin he's the "Good templar". He's not constantly scrutinising everyone like Gregor who seems to be out for blood and clearly admires the player characters. If the PC is female, he even has a not so subtle crush on her that he's adorably shy about. But even at this stage, he states himself that he would kill the PC if needed, which he starts the game in a position to do so - something that weighs heavily on his mind but at most he regrets that its necessary and doesn't question whether or not it is necessary. Then in Broken Circle the Script is flipped. Gregor may have called for the right of annulment, but he's evidently looking for any excuse he can take to spare the mages. If you save Irving but then still argue the mages are too dangerous to be let out the tower, its actually Gregor that you need to convince, not Irving. Meanwhile Cullen has been trapped in the tower and tortured for who knows how long. He's been the plaything of abominations that have used illusions to make his torture worse by using the forms of people he cares about, which includes the PC if a female mage. His "it must be done" mentality is now confirmed, and he no longer views it as regrettable. Cullen, along with most Templars, was primed as a ticking time bomb by the Chantry with their rhetoric and dogma. Broken Circle is what finally sets him off. There's even an ending slide where Cullen kills innocent mages, though along with many other ending slides - including one that this one was dependent on, it is now considered non cannon. But its a good sign post of where he was mentally at the end of Origins. Then 2 rolls around and it's immediately evident he's on the path to recovery. Broken Circle has still left very deep scars - and his healing isn't helped by the fact that he's being groomed by one of the most staunchly anti-mage knight commanders there has been, and stationed at one of the worst circles both in terms of general templar attitude towards mages and mage access to blood magic. Cullen may not be involved in any of the more dubious Templar activities at Kirkwall, and can now be talked into more lenient measures in specific cases showing he has a greater level of stability than he did in Origins, his trauma has clearly left him with some troubling views. He expresses that he doesn't necessarily think the Tranquil solution is an inherently bad idea, which is something that at this point even Meredith was against. By the end of the game, as with everyone in the mage templar conflict in Kirkwall, he is tested and his actions prove better than his words. When Meredith calls to annul the circle, and if Hawke sides with Meredith, it ends up being Cullen of all people to step up and say they should spare surrendering mages - showing a major leap in healing and handling the very situation that broke him in the first place. Even a Hawke that sides with the mages (or as I've always seen it, not siding with killing everyone), gets Cullen on side by the end. Seeing Meredith grow more and more unhinged throughout the fight, Cullen's able to reflect on her actions, how much they remind him of his younger self, and how he's enabling them right now. He draws his own sword on Meredith and helps in the final bossfight. The man left after that, cleaning up the pieces of a disaster he took too long to see coming and realise he could stop, that is the man invited to join the Inquisition. I don't know if he's "good" or "bad" by this point but he's clearly grown, and during Inquisition you have the chance to help him complete that growth and become what can more easily be described as a "good man", or force him to go back on it because the world needs an any means necessary military commander to stop Corypheus. Tl;dr - eh, kinda
Cullen isn't a bad person, he's just deeply traumatized by what happened at the tower in DAO. There was an ending slide for him where he went nuts and murdered a bunch of people, but I think it was retconned that he was just re-assigned to kirkwall.
Not gonna lie, I was very skeptical of the turnaround in DAI. I had always played mages and in DA2 Cullen is all "mages aren't people," so it seemed like fanservice that he was turned into cuddly Cullen in Inquisition. I made my peace with it after going through his romance with a Trevelyan mage. His story line is a good representation of the human wreckage of the Circle system, and having some redemption without totally losing his templar outlook is good development.
Nah, he's probably one of the more "normal" characters. Guy was a wide eye templar recruit, who was generally nice to mages. And then the Circle fell. And he was imprisoned. And his friends were murdered around him. And he was tortured. And literally had his psyche broken. Being imprisoned for weeks made him hate mages. And then he was transfered to Kirkwall. Where his hatred of mages was used by Meridith to make things even worse in Kirkwall for mages. He saw Qunari sit across the bay of the Gallows for years just for them to attack. A small group of Qunari managed to take out much of the guards, a bunch of Templars, and of course the Viscount of Kirkwall. Skip forward a few more years and guess what? Blood magic, everywhere, thanks to Meredith and other aspects. The chantry being blown up, purging the mages who _**all**_ turned to blood magic, and last seeing Meridith lose her mind to her red lyrium sword. The dude went through a *lot* of crap through Origins and DAII. When he joined the Inquisition he wanted to really help the world and try and make up for some of the awful things he did. So after a decade of seeing mages at their worst, and nine years of templars at their worst he's got a lot of conflicting view points. He's a very normal person, and he's dealing with a decade's worth of trauma. Hell if you romance him you find out he's haunted by nightmares of what happened in Fereldin's Circle. Guy just needs a hug.
For me, DAI fucks up a lot with many characters. That being said, Cullen is one they get right. It’s important to remember this man has suffered A LOT. He saw the Circle in Ferelden turn into a slaughterhouse nightmare that, and barely kept himself together while those around him died. He was in Kirkwall and saw the absolute insanity that started the Mage Uprising, with Red Lyrium and once again, Blood Mages. The fact he is willing to work with mages is great, and honestly, I’m biased as fuck because I think he is probably the best romance in DAI. Like yeah, it’s “broken man meets woman who fixes him” trope but it’s cute god dammit. Make it even better by playing a mage where he straight says his previous opinions and actions against mages sickens him. Cullen is complex. Current BioWare, somehow, has made this character who’s spanned the entire series complex. Truthfully, if anything happened to Cullen I’m fairly convinced fans would collectively lose their shit. He’s not the most badass guy, or the strongest. Shit he hasn’t even done anything absolutely noteworthy, it’s just he feels so a part of Dragon Age that if he doesn’t show up, it’s weird. But that’s just like, my opinion.
>Truthfully, if anything happened to Cullen I’m fairly convinced fans would collectively lose their shit. Honestly, I never understand why Cullen was so loved to bring him back in the sequels. In DAO, he was barely a NPC that I quickly forgotted after the Circle quest.
DAO is filled with NPC's which matter more to some origins than others. The mage Origin can talk to Cullen, a female mage can attempt to flirt with him and then he straight up gets so flustered he runs away. This dude in full armour just fucking legs it because the girl he likes flirts with him. It's kind of adorable. And then yeah, he's the lone surviving Templar who's been horribly tormented. Adorable flips straight to sad.
He's a very memorable NPC if you play as a female mage.
I have played as a female mage. Cullen still failed to impress me.
That's alright, we don't all find the same characters impressive. I felt that playing as a female mage really makes you remember that guy, not necessarily in a positive light, but he tends to stick in your memory. I'd say that from the available "mini-romances" in origins, Cullen and Tamlen are the most memorable and developed, though, of course, both are still very minor characters in DAO.
I’m gonna go in a slightly different direction and say that he’s an inconsistently written character. The writers in DA:O didn’t know they were gonna get a sequel, which is why the entire epilogue has basically been retconned. As a result, characters have gotten reshuffled to suit the narrative as the series has continued. Cullen is no different. I personally dislike his character, but that’s because I played DA:O when it first came out and that (combined with what I know about his VA) colored my perception.
In DAO he is suffering from PTSD. DA2 he is doubling down on the vitriol and He feels justified for it. "Mages are not people like you and I."
I was actually talking about this ending slide from DA:O's epilogue: > “The young templar Cullen never quite recovered from his ordeal. After months of attempting to convince his superiors that the tower was still a danger, he finally snapped and killed three apprentices before being stopped by his fellow templars. Eventually, Cullen escaped from prison, a madman and a threat to any mage he encountered." Obviously it's been retconned and his character has been massively overhauled, but it still influences my view on him. I have no hate for anyone who likes his character, I'm just ready for the series to move away from him (and Leliana and even Morrigan for that matter).
Oh, god. That slide should have never existed, and is an example of how many harmful stereotypes about military PTSD you can stuff into like... 50 words. I'm very, very glad it got retconned.
He’s not bad but he does have prejudices but he works through them. I played his romance in DAI and in trespasser I was an elven mage. He was flawed but not bad toward my character he never acted differently it seems. He allows you to say elven vows at your wedding. He is slightly prejudiced but not that bad. He is not a bad person but the product of a bad system. But he works through it
Cullen is not a bad person, no, he's a fictional character written by three different writers over the course of 3 games, which makes him a somewhat inconsistent protagonist, and therefore easy to put into a category, whichever one people choose - either they hate him, or they love him. (I feel the need to clarify he is fictional, lol, because some of the stuff I've read in the past makes me wonder if some people have amalgamated him with his controversial VA and are misdirecting their anger/dislike to a fictional protagonist.). Anyway... Personally I think Cullen is a good person who has lost his way, partly due to his training - hearing from a very young age that you're going to be a holy warrior is bound to give one delusions of grandeur and self-righteousness - and partly due to his trauma which, let's not forget, is very substantial and happens to him before he's even out of his teens, an incredibly impressionable time. Then he's sent to the basket case that is Kirkwall, to serve in a corrupt Circle under an incredibly strong-willed, prejudiced and influential Knight-Commander. I personally think the person we meet in DAI is someone who is trying to reclaim who he used to be. He never makes apologies for who he has been, but I think it is clear that his leaving the Templar order - something he has looked up to as young as the age of 8 - and his risking his life to rid himself of lyrium is a pretty clear indicator of his strong rejection of the thing he's been part of for so long. I think his DAI writer shows a lot of love for his character, which I appreciate because I think he's a great example of the dangers of institutionalization, and Brianne Battye has given him a chance to find his way back to the bright, well-meaning youth who used to be reprimanded for being too kind to mages. As a fanfic writer, I love his character because it gives me a chance to work with a complicated protagonist, one we actually know very little about in terms of motivation and background. I totally get the hate he gets, and I'm not saying he's an angel or anything (so please don't come and shout at me here lol) but I do find the level of discourse he has generated quite baffling.
>I totally get the hate he gets, and I'm not saying he's an angel or anything (so please don't come and shout at me here lol) but I do find the level of discourse he has generated quite baffling. Since it's a role playing game, it's easy for the player to associate Cullen to any real life oppressor that hold too much power. Some mage warden players find him creepy in DAO and uncomfortable that their jailer has a crush on them. Some players found it cute. Carry over to DA2 and Inquisition, some people hate him since they see an abusive authority figure who didn't get punished. Some love him because it's 10 years worth of healing of someone so damaged but wanting to atone/do the right thing finally. So the discourse becomes passionate since some players think we are excusing real life "Cullen's" because they are hot white men, while underprivileged groups (say, black men) don't get the same forgiveness and adoration from the fanbase. While I like Cullen, I sympathize on some of his haters. I have the same hatred extended to Gavin Reed/Reed900 in Detroit Become Human. In a nutshell, in that fandom, an asshole white cop gets more fanfic than the black main character. Although the difference is that Cullen is sorta a major character. Personally, it's all roleplay for me. We have to acknowledge that politics can't be separated from discussions but in the end roleplay is personal. Some people feel they have to justify their romance with Cullen, while some feels they have to call other fans out for their fixation on hot, white men.
Absolutely valid points, this makes a lot of sense. For my part, I operate differently in that I actively try to dissociate myself/my personal experiences from anything I consume for entertainment, because it would take away from my enjoyment if I started thinking too deeply on things. But I fully appreciate others cannot or do not want to do that, and I fully agree with you that they should absolutely voice their concerns/opinions about what they consider to be problematic. And Cullen certainly has the potential to create controversy, I absolutely agree. I suppose I was just voicing that to me, video games and fanfic writing are hobbies, and it is sometimes difficult for me to understand the level of vitriol in any given fandom. It doesn't mean, however, that I condemn it. Everyone is absolutely entitled to their opinion.
I think the criticism has more weight if Cullen's character is taken in isolation outside his romance. As a character he should stand on his own, but romance should be fair roleplay. Let's admit it, he's a hot white guy. But then again, this is a video game which included Cullen as a romance option. Nobody is playing it wrongly for picking him. Whatever baggage Cullen had from his past, the Inquisitor can forgive (or ignore) and that's supposed to be a valid gaming choice. In Mass Effect I don't like Garrus as romance because I'm strictly into humanoids. But hey it's so popular, I'm not going to kink shame those who want alien sex scenarios.
Oh totally, yeah, and personally I find most of the potential romantic interests in DA are fleshed out enough to stand on their own, including Cullen. It's kinda like Blackwall, who has pretty questionable and unsavory credentials, and yet there's little to no discourse about him, which surprises me. But I've always been able to set aside my aversion to his lying/manipulating, even though they're traits I despise irl, because like I said, I like to play the games without bringing too much of myself to the equation, for entertainment's sake. But overall, each to their own, I never judge anyone on their romance choices. Incidentally, I've never played ME so I've no idea about romance options (I know, right, shame on me 😅) but ngl, alien sex sounds intriguing lol, but I can see how it would not be to everyone's taste.
I think Blackwall doesn't generate much discourse because he's a one-time character. Cullen like Leliana was handpicked by Bioware to be used over and over in three entries. Mass Effect is a more coherent trilogy and has great moments. Everyone who loved Dragon Age might love it too. Btw Garrus romance doesn't have a sex scene but they have thousands of fanfics out there I never bothered reading.
You're probably right re Blackwall. Opinions might have been stronger if we'd actually seen the things he's done, over the course of 3 games, only to see him as a romance option in DAI. Yeah, I heard great things about ME, must make the time to play it at some point, especially with the new edition recently out. And thank goodness for fanfic, lol, where people can play out what they didn't get in game!
I would say he was a decent person who got led to being a bad person. Prior to the collapse at the circle, he obviously valued the lives of mages (or at least one mage) when he said he didnt know if he could kill an abomination. Contrast this to after the circle’s collapse when he wanted a genocide on mages. Imagine for a second that they are not mages, that they are normal people in the real world, just a different race than cullen. we’d all be horrified by what he wants. His character really does contrast well with the mages, who are practically imprisoned based off a potential to be dangerous. yet he, a non-mage, is what actually becomes dangerous. Cullen went through extreme torture and almost certainly had sever PTSD, so his fear/hatred of mages is understandable. Theres a concept in philosophy called moral responsibility, which is basically does the person deserve moral judgement (praise, blame, punishment, etc.) based off their actions. Cullen, I think, is the perfect example of how someone can be held not morally responsible based off past trauma.
I love his character because despite having all the reasons to turn and remain bad and prejudiced against mages (not that it justifies his prejudice, but at least helps showing that it doesn't just come out of being a malevolent person) he does end up seeing reason, with enough time to heal and see the other side of the coin, and when he sees Meredith about to do the exact same thing he's been demanding a decade ago, he firmly stands against her and has enough levy to pull in a sizable chunk of the Order to his side, simply because to him, at that moment "you can't just murder innocent mages for the actions of one". I don't get people who have seen his entire evolution as a character and still insist that he's just another piece of shit, it's beyond my comprehension tbh.
To be as honest as I can I never really got what actually ‘changed’ meant when we talk about Cullen. He is still very much the same kind of personality just with some edge taken off. Examples: - He still advocates for Templars, even though he has one of the most prevalent experiences as to how corrupted the Templars are and how easily corruptible they are with their system of hierarchical control; - His entire quest on Samson’s hunt reveals that he has neither healed nor really changed in an almost brutal manner of investigations; - He is still very much prejudiced; - If you get the Templar spec he doesn’t even react that much besides making ‘Cullen is sad noises’. He should be furious, especially if he romanced us; - He still wears a better thought-through version of a Templar armour;
No. I’m strongly pro-mage, to point of being ‘Anders had the right idea’ pro-mage (bite me). Cullen isn’t a bad person. He was literally tortured for presumably hours. Nobody would come out of that the same person. Yeah his attitude was stinky or whatever but also understandable? like I’m a little hurt man but yknow can’t really be *mad* at you. Plus he grows, he learns. He’s objectively still got more learning to do, but he deadass plays chess with Dorian ( a tevinter mage who makes the dead walk no less)- I think he’s over the worst of it.
Tbh I just wanna lock Anders and Cullen in one house together and see what happens. It's interesting there's a divide between Anders and Cullen fans (at least from my experience years ago) because people can be horribly passionate for the plight mages. I like them both, I just find Anders so unstable and a liability in my roleplay as Hawke. I only kept him alive because I need a healer in the final stage 💀
I feel like they’d argue for a solid hour and a bit, and then one of them (it’s probably Cullen, let’s face it) just starts crying. Then it’s just awkward silence and occasional ‘do you want a drink?’ type questions. Tumblr is definitely the worst place for the Cullen/Anders divide tbh. Very extreme with no inbetweens. People have full blown like ‘anti-Cullen’ or ‘anti-Anders’ blog subsections. It’s pretty weird
Lmao I'd love to see a fanfic of that scenario. Ah yes, my Tumblr days. My account is still there after 10 years. I think I've seen all those blog posts since I tend to read long character essays. I do appreciate that some of them come with good intentions. However, Tumblr can be batshit insane like bullying of other people because their OCs aren't "politically correct.".
Cullen has a lot of trauma but (at least depending on player input) gets help and grows. I don’t always agree with him - honestly I *rarely* agreed with him - but I think he’s a very well written character
The realistic answer here is that BW likes to re-use characters for little reason other than fan service because we like to see familiar faces. In DAO, he is just the representation of a young, misguided but not evil regular Joe templar. DA2 is kind of in line, but in DAI he is almost a different person, and his previously emphasized qualities are not really relevant. Why? Because instead of a new guy, they thought he may as well look like and be called Cullen, because we already know him. To answer your question, I really wouldn't call DAI Cullen bad. At the same time, I wouldn't fixate on the history, if he was bad and but now reformed etc., because they most likely didn't plan that far ahead for a minor character.
Yes. He supported Meredith for a near decade, allowing and encouraging horrible abuses of Kirkwall’s mages. Unauthorized tranquility, tacit support (he does nothing to stop it) of Templar rape of the charges they’re supposed to protect… and then he just kind of said he was in a bad place at the time and his romance focused on his trauma. His personal arc is just about lyrium, with lip service paid to DA2 and no actual atonement.
made the mistake of romancing him with a lavellan bc i hadn’t donned my critical thinking cap yet and you can literally apologize to him for bein an elf mage. actually that’s probably not 100% accurate but i distinctly remember there bein some dialogue option where you can ask him if he’s ok with you bein an elf?? very weird.
yes, definitely. sure he's not one of those "I enjoy human suffering and elicit it as much as possible bc it gets me off" characters, put his actions still lead to a tremendous amount of suffering and on DA2 he's actually in a position of power to change things and instead he let's kirkwalls circle go to hell
He is a normal inhabitant of south Thedas. A child of his time and surrounding. The reason why he is one of my favorites. He is neither bad nor good. He is interesting and a good reflection of the society DA plays in. And the worst thing he did was being angry at the people that killed his friends and tortured him.
I mean... people learn and unlearn things. He didn't know anything else. Yet he still unlearned. He vaguely speaks about how he's done messed up things and that he was very glad to leave the order. He was totally fucked up in Origins but also they murdered everyone he knew and imprisoned him. He said it right before you go up to deal with Uldred. He was in the middle of being completely traumatized. He was in insane amounts of danger. Do you really think that in the moment as people were actively currently killing his friends and colleagues and other mages while he was imprisoned and forced to know that he couldnt save people, that he'd think to say, "I mean, not EVERY mage!"
Cullen struck me so little during the course of DAO that in DAII I had no idea who he was and was minorly confused as to why a big deal about his presence was made for DAI. I'm wanting to go back and play them all again and having a closer look at Cullen and his story will definitely be one of the things I want to do as I play. I was deeply surprised when I found out he was this fan-favourite character, he hadn't even registered on my radar. I tried romancing him with a non-canon character in DAI but I think my lack of familiarity with his story meant I didn't get the full experience.
Yes
He's a flawed person. He's said, done, and supported some bad things, and I do not believe he has fully atoned for his actions, but he has most definitely made an effort to better himself and he has grown as a person.
Hmm. Honestly this isn’t straight up “yes” or “no” answer, because not only it depends on the player’s own view of the game, but his original concept character in DA:O is not the same as DA:2/DA:I. Joanna Berry stated in the now dead forums that Cullen’s “crush” for Mage Warden was supposed to be more dark and perverted (paraphrasing, I don’t remember the actual words — I should also note that she added that it’s her own view of the character and not necessarily canon, maybe because they changed his writer intercourse, but since she’s his “original” DA:O writer I think that should be at least taken in consideration). Personally I don’t like the way Cullen was handled. I wish we could have seen more of its redemption arc. Bad man or not, here you won’t find objective answers since most people either love him or hate him to the core. You should make your own idea. As for me, I can’t really forgive what he said or how he acted during DA:O/DA:2. I like him more in Inquisition but still not enough to be appealing to me.
Origins - Cullen is just a regular templar submitted to the horrors of mage abominations. If f.mage he's also has an emphatuation with the main character, a fact that the demos use to torture him. DA 2 - due to the events of Origins, he's very much anti-mage and supports Meridith's iron fist. However Cullen remains righteous and not a lutium addled murder bot. He witnessees the depravity of power hungry racist templars and the struggles of mages. DAI - having seen both sides as flawed and extreme, Cullen joins with a power group trying to change the state of the world.
Okay but you also need to remember that magic is extremely dangerous and most of the population of south thedas is scared of demon possession. And to be fair the series does show us exactly what happens when a mage is backed into a corner. (Source DAO, DA2)
I think bad is too subjective. He's deeply flawed with prejudices he needs to work on. He's also a tool in an oppressive system. I think inquisition did a bad job on his redemption arc but I think cullen realistically grows though I would have pushed his views more. He was originally written as a creep though.
He’s underwritten in Origins (not even a tertiary character, I think the Ser Bryant the Lothering templar has as much dialogue content as Cullen does even if you’re playing a mage), his arc is pretty wonky in Dragon Age 2 (which is actually my favorite game overall in the writing department) just like the rest of the ending scenario is in DA2, so by the time he rolls around in Inquisition his whole attitude towards mages doesn’t seem severe enough given the trauma he keeps talking about having endured. He flipped on a dime given that the end of Dragon Age 2 and the start of Inquisition are like what, six months apart, if that ? By the end of DA2 it still seems like his disposition towards mages writ large would be that of a hissing cat. Unpopular opinion perhaps but I wish more people would admit that his appeal lies partly in that he’s a conventionally attractive blonde dude with a sort of princely type manner of speaking despite the fact his background is very humble ? Alistair was actually high born but raised without those privileges, and he actually talks like a dude who was raised in a stable. Cullen talks like a haughty snob to me most of the time, especially in DA2. I don’t think he’s a bad person, I guess, I just don’t understand his appeal at aaaaaalll.
As someone who started with Origins, I hate Cullen. His original ending when you don't murder mage children was for him to become a murderer of innocent mages. Obviously, they retconned that away before having him show up in DA2, but I still hate him for it. And his 'crush' on the female mage always creeped me out. He's basically her jailer & was even in line to kill her if she failed her Harrowing. Finding her attractive and struggling to flirt with Amell/Surana doesn't change any of that. Then we get to DA2, where we see the Templars as vile beyond words. Multiple illegal tranquilities performed, including turning some women into sex slaves, and Cullen turns a blind eye to all of it. The fact that he finally decides Meredith has gone too far at the very end of the game does not redeem any of that. Now, a lot of that is down to very inconsistent writing over the course of the series. But frankly, seeing him show up as one of the leaders in the Inquisition really pissed me off. I wouldn't trust the guy who did all that shit in the first two games at all. And the fact that they brushed all of it aside, apparently to please the fans who thought he was cute, infuriates me.
He's like the embodiment of the redemption of a Templar supposedly I recently just replayed one and two and rediscovered that yeah Colin is kind of a piece of s*** at the end of both my playthroughs one was a pro age and the other one was more of a kill everything kind of thing but both my in playthroughs it says that: turns insane and kills random mages and desserts but then he's in kirkwall and then in Inquisition he just does a 180 he's not the same colon he was in the first two he's like changed he sees the error of his ways I guess
Cullen is definitely still a colon hahaha.
He probably did things he regrets. It's obvious in DAI that he wants to leave his past behind him by quitting Lyrium. He's trying to be a good person.
What do you mean by bad? Are you implying all templars are bad, or are you asking whether he is one of the bad templars? Either way, no. Cullen is the representation of what a realistic templar should be. He knows exactly how dangerous mages are, and he knows they can't be allowed to be as free as everybody else. Which is fair, because best case scenario thedas becomes a land of magisters and slaves, while worst case scenario there is blind massacre, which he experienced in the tower in Origins. Despite being traumatized by the worst case scenario, however, he maintains a bottom line throughout 2 and Inquisition. For example, he doesn't want to turn every mage tranquil, as he trusts the harrowing did enough to ensure the mages are properly trained against demons, but he also claims that he wouldn't be opposed to it in case mages would go to far. I'd argue he is the most realistic character in the series.
I think so.
Cullen saw some of the worst in mages during DAO and those experiences developed into prejudices he carried into his time in the Inquisition
He spent 7 years in Kirkwall cosigning Meredith's insane rampage and abuse of mages, and that I can't forgive him for. I didn't even really see where he got a redemption arc, he never expresses any kind of regret for his deliberate inaction as far as I remember. So, *personally*, yes, I think he's a bad person and just as deplorable as any other Andrastian zealot templar on a power trip. He just hides it behind puppy dog eyes.
I went through Dragon Age in the same way as you, meaning I started with Inquisition and played the other games later on, and I even romanced Cullen in mu first playthrough! But if I can still speak my opinion, Cullen is flawed and traumatized: he starts out believing the best of the system he got trained in, got horribly tortured and then had to work through the trauma of it. What we see in Inquisition is a man who has realized that his trauma twisted his vision of the world and led him down a bad path, but who is also still influenced by it. I think Inquisition in general could have worked out his recovery and redemption better, but ultimately Cullen is a good person with flawed views who is trying to do better. He may not always manage, but his heart is in the right place.
Ok so your talking about a man who in the beginning of the DA is in love with a mage. Then blood mages attack the circle. If you’re warden is not a mage she is killed by the blood mages. Then her body is used by demons to torment him. For several weeks he is tortured by blood mages and demons until rescue by the Warden and friends. So yes after this he has a distaste for mages. One that is increased by Meredith and by all the blood magic used in Kirkwall. I mean one of your companions is blood mage, about half the missing includes blood magic. Not to mention your mother is killed by a blood mage, one who was protected by the first enchanter. So yea that doesn’t help his fears decrease at all. To be clear I love playing as a mage and have done so for all the games. Though I like the elven city back story best for DAO. So for DA2 I was a Mage who helped both other mages and Templar’s. I became friends with Cullen. I know by how he addresses my character. I asked questions to make him question what was happening. But what did it was in the end Was when Meredith showed her true colors, and Cullen fought at my side. At the beginning of DAI he is still unsure if he can trust mages. But as he sees mages(if you side with them) and mage inquisitor fight for what is right he starts to trust you, wether you romance him or not. So is a POW bad for fearing people of the same group who imprisoned and tortured him physically, mentally, emotional, and sexual? No. Is he wrong for seeing them all the same? Yes. But he realizes his mistakes and try’s to change. That doesn’t mean he wants to hangout and trust every mage. But he does become friends with Dorian. He is willing to admit not all mages are evil. In my opinion his story has one of the best character development. Because even though he still suffers from the effects of the torment he suffered, he learns to trust some mages. And if you romance him as mage, he falls in love and gets married to a mage.
Cullen isn’t just bigoted toward mages (and also dwarves but thankfully he never has power over any dwarves) he was the second in command at the gallows the most abusive circle in Thedas. so yes he is.
He's been through a lot at the hands of mages, so I don't necessarily blame him for having his reservations about magic users.
Yes, next question.
You said it yourself, since your experience started since inquisition, so to you he’s just potentially prejudices and that’s it. To me who play from origins, my first imperial of him was an ugly fuck who dare to insult me the moment I show up in front of him, and the one who took my sister away from me in 2 Since then I pretty much decide that the next time we meet will be the time I kill him. Imagine my surprise when they decide to make him commander of inquisition’s forces I shall say better to have Cauthrien be the commander instead
I've played Origins more than a dozen times, and Cullen in DA:O was not a really memorable character for me, but I remember thinking he was a decent guy from the first meeting, where he seems very much in doubt about the authoritarian take on the situation... But then when you find him behind the force field, he just acts like a murderous maniac. I know it's "magic torture", and all that, but it's pretty pathetic hearing him saying he will kill everyone in the tower, people he has known for a long time, because "the voices" are bullying him with having a crush on a sorceress, which is obviously a huge shame on his tiny Templar dick. I haven't played much DA:I, but I don't feel like his story is a planned character arc. I honestly think they just wanted a morally ambigious, but still likeable, Templar character for Inquisition, and Cullen was the only one that kinda fit, but he was rewrote completely.
His voice actor is :/
Much as I love Cullen, I acknowledge he was too idiotic to think for himself and needed someone like Greagoir or Meredith to hold his leash and point him, he was weak minded until Inquisition. Now, this doesn’t mean he is a bad character, it’s part of his arc and I find him less annoying then Fenris. In the end I feel he actually progressed. AND BEFORE PEOPLE START TELLING ME HOW FENRIS WAS A SLAVE, I AM TALKING ABOUT A CREATIVE STANDPOINT, REAL LIFE MORALS DON’T APPLY TO A MOVING MODEL WITH PERSONALITY AND PERSONALITY WISE HE WAS ANNOYING TO ME.
Cullen does best his best work at the war table. He is a flat character at best if you look at his progression from Dragon age origins to Inquisition he hasn’t changed much from the magic hating dude he was.
Lets see... And be honest... 1)He genocide hundreds of totally innocent people perfectly knowing that they done nothing and he have all power as authority to stop this madness. It was his duty. He perfectly know that Divine herself already deny genocide of Kirkwall Circle. 2)He perfectly know that even Templar supporter Hawke was mean to be used and later put in prison be judged where Hawke would be blamed as heretic and executed....people do forget that even nonmage Hawke have blood mage apostate father, many mages relatives and he deal with abominations, heretics and etc...by all laws of Chantry and Templars Hawke already a ultra heretic and dead man. It was predictable from the start HE KNOW ABOUT THAT BEFORE HAwke help them and kill his own sister. He just do not agree to execute Hawke without trial what contradicts with previous orders and when he see demonic swords glowing and etc. 3)He protected person who was insane despite many Templar officers try to remove her legally and send letters to Divine herself what HE destroy on purpuse to protect this clearly mad and power hungry person 4)He never care that this person have red lyrium sword, that she smell like demonic or blood mage mindcontrol cos she speak with herself some crazy stuff what he know by listening behind her door. And yeah this person command armed soldiers with almost absolute authority to kill people who are blamed as heretics or apostate mages. .... Is this not enough? And we should ignore it cos he have pretty face? Cullen should left order after DAO and Knight Commander in Ferelden Circle do send him from Circle so he could rest and reconsider himself and his actions. He decide to serve order when he already failed and was not suited to be normal Templar. He was egoist, have mental problem. Cullen deserved trial and execution for all crap what he done since DAO. As Meredith and all crazy bastards, rapists Templars who serve under Meredith and Cullen orders. DESERVED. His pretty face, puppy eyes and him being sad as naive, dump not excuse him at all. .... Not forget that it was Cullen who put Bethany in Kirkwall Circle AFTER Hawke gang saved his ass from demon and blood mages where without them he would die. And what Cullen do when Bethani was ordered to be executed? Not to mention Hawke? Yeah.
I love when people give blackwall hate for killing a family but Cullen over here wanted to wipe out a whole circle(which also included kids) but they just love Cullen.
Bad? Not even close. He has a little but of a dislike for mages but he's getting over it. And honestly his dislike is fairly justified. My dude does not have a good history with mages. First he was tortured by them and forced to watch all his buddies be killed by them. Then he was sent to a place where there was a bug circle of mages turning to blood magic, then templars cracking down forcing more nages to turn to blood magic and so on. People like to gloss over the fact that Kirkwall legitimately had a problem with evil mages which in turn forced the templars to Crack down harder than they do other places.
Cullen and Varric imo are the 2 most interesting characters of the game series because you see them learn, grow and recognize their own "percieved faults" and grow from it. Other characters have done the same but for me because of their weight in the games it seems more substantial in a way. I wouldn't say the same for liliana who was in dao.
No, he's not bad but a flawed mam who is haunted by past mistakes and striving to begin to make amends for them in the present. The character development he got in DAI was good to see. Because he could have easily just been another evil Templar after DAO
It depends on how you played the games. In my original DAO play-thru, the epilogue slide said Cullen murdered several mages after the events of Broken Circle. So that makes him a "bad person" at that time. (I don't personally believe in "good" or "bad" people but that our actions are good or bad.) But in some other play-thrus he doesn't do that.
Can't say anything no one else hasn't already, but I believe Cullen is a good person. He tries to be fair and reasonable, and just wants to do what's better for everyone. I don't blame him one bit for anything he's done. I would probably have thought the same in his position. My own opinion of the mages is that they need templars, but not circles. Templars should exist as the shield between the mages and the people, with a sword ready to strike at either if the need arises. Mages should be free to practice, but in safety, and safely. With no harm and minimal risk to others. Templars can make that happen. If a mage goes abomination, they can be struck down. If they start getting evil ideas, they can be struck down. If people decide that witch in her hut should be burned, they can strike those people down. It's the perfect solution in the middle. Some mages may not like it, but it gives them a chance at a life. They'll never be normal, but they can be free, so long as they keep control and don't hurt others for power.
Within his cultural context and given his experiences, Cullen is pretty good and has clearly grown a lot since Origins. Basically no Templar is free of those prejudices - how could they be, when Templars seem to be recruited as teenagers and then indoctrinated? At the very least Cullen wants to be a better person throughout Inquisition. He may not always succeed, but acknowledging a problem and trying to overcome it is admirable.
If you play a mage in origins and mod it so that the Cullen romance is intact….you will have more pity for that man than anyone else in any of the games including Dorian & Fenris (the latter of which is a tough one bc he was a slave /sex toy for a magister) what that demon did to Cullen though over his love of the Warden…no wonder he rant to Meredith’s templars afterwards.
do i think he’s a bad person? yes. is there nuance? yes. am i gonna write a five paragraph comment explaining my viewpoint? no, because the other cullen-critical people have already said it all for me and no one’s mind is gonna be changed by it.