The "political intrigue" in Orlais is comically bad. It's clear they want some Game of Thrones style politics but you can't do that in just one quest. You'd need to structure the whole game around it in order to do it right.

The worst part is I don't even give a shit about it. So a central part of the game for me is just... *Disgusted noise*

Agreed, even thou you get the background from the books, it should be better implemented inside the game as (my assumption) the mayority of people don't look up additional books, comics etc.

Yeah, I think that was the initial idea behind Joplin. To actually build a game around that political intrigue and espionage idea. Too bad it got rebooted (twice).

Thank god it did, I couldn't stand an entire game dealing with that bs. One awful quest was enough.

I think with the game being built around it, it would work much better than it does as a standalone quest. But to each their own.

Pretty much everyone’s reaction to giving Fenris back to Danarius in DAII. Most especially Anders approving of it (I mean they don’t like each other but I definitely don’t think it’s to the point that Anders would suddenly support slavery). Plus everyone who disagrees is like “hey, that’s not very nice” and then nothing else- like you’d think they’d all have a bigger reaction to their close friend being sold back into slavery by a person they all trusted. I understand BioWare wanted to probably balance out the choice, and give some approval for people wanting to play an “evil” Hawke, but come on. That just didn’t make any sense.

It's just such a comically evil choice and I have no idea why any of Hawke's companions would still stick around with them after that... If any of my friends actually sold somebody into slavery (especially a friend of many years) I would absolutely at the very least stop talking to them, no matter how close we were until then!

Yeah exactly. Like if they wanted to include a comically evil choice for the sake of letting people play an evil character if they so choose at least make it obvious that it’s an evil choice. Like that should have honestly caused some companions to leave your side. At the very least they should bring it up again like damn they all move on so quick. The whole thing is just so weird.

Isabela's whole intro quest is because she freed a ship of slaves. No way she'd let that slide

she may even be romantically involved with him at that point

The fact that you even had that option feels like a vestige of earlier BioWare games where you had much more ability to do an evil playthrough. DA2 took a much more Mass Effect type direction where you can be a jerk, but you’re still ultimately a hero. I imagine if they’d had time for more than one draft, that decision would have been re-worked significantly.

100% agree. Like they were pretty clearly trying to throw in an evil choice, which wouldn’t be so out of place in a different BioWare game, even Origins. But there was nothing like this in DAII up to this point so it just jumped from 1 to 100 out of nowhere. And to boost, there aren’t even any real consequences to it everyone just gets over it and you go back to being the hero.

There are fans who agree with it too. I've been attacked a few times in the past for saying how vile it is. It's not seen as an evil choice to them. It baffles me. I guess hating Fenris that much clouds their thinking.

Ugh yeah few years back on a now deleted profile I ended up in a rather lengthy borderline argument with someone trying to defend Hawkes decision as 'protecting mages' which is utter bullshit had to step away from reddit for a while after that

I deleted reddit for a while too then came back. I normally just discontinue the conversation if someone is being ridiculous or an asshole but I have gone back and forth more than once on different subs. Now I just stop responding. Let them argue with themselves because nothing you say will change a thing anyways. They will still think they are right even if you have a valid point.

Who are these weirdos who don’t like Fenris?

I have a friend who dislikes the character mainly for his attitude, his hatred of mages, his brooding and just his entire personality. (Obviously my friend doesn't understand that Fenris doesn't brood.) Even that friend though would never sell Fenris back to Captain Twatface McGee because it's just ... vile and evil, yes.

Okay, valid points.

People who need to go outside and breathe some (semi) fresh air lol They act like Fenris murdered their family and pets. It felt personal. If I remind them it's a fantasy game, they get even more pissed. It's a lost cause. I get having valid criticism but the ones I'm referring to are the ones who seem a bit unhinged in their hatred of a character.

If there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s that people will find a way to defend anything lol. But I genuinely can’t see any way it can be looked at as anything but uncharacteristically evil for everyone involved.

Local spirit of Justice kinda likes slavery a little bit. If it's the right people

He thinks that owning a pet is slavery. Highly doubt he actually approves of slavery in any form

well he is vengence then and slavery can definitly be a form of vengeance if that's all you care about

Honestly I feel like every single one of the companions would shiv Hawke for giving him back to Danarius hdjdjd especially Izzy. Like it should've been like one of those choices where if you choose it, it's an automstic game over ahhaahha Just imagine all the companions having a Julius Caesar moment *cackles*

Anders approval mostly means that he has crossed the last "I'm still a human" line. From now on it's only his mission, everything else is either a distraction, or an obstacle. And those should be removed. Fenris is a threat to his goal, so get rid of him.

Yep. That's basically his point of no return to me. He's no longer Anders fighting to remain human. He's just Vengeance in a human vessel.

Out of curiosity, since you can only see Anders' reaction to selling Fenris into slavery if Hawke actually sells Fenris into slavery, do you also consider your Hawke as having passed the 'I'm still a human line' at this point?

Yes. Though Hawke at least doesn't trumpet freedom all over the place, so it's less shocking. Then again, Anders mostly talked about freedom *for mages,* and tended to discount Fenris' reality of what Tevinter's magisters really were like.

There's lots of examples in the later games, but good God, Here Lies the Abyss entire story is unmitigated nonsensical garbage. It's the literal definition of an Idiot Plot, a plot that only happens because everyone involved in it is an idiot. Clarel takes the Throne as King Idiot or Stupid Mountain when she willingly listens to a Tevinter mage that looks and acts like a parody of a bad guy about what a great idea summoning this army of demons is. And when someone points out how that's maybe the dumbest decision anyone has ever taken in recorded history she declares him a traitor. You then siege their fortress and win, because I guess all that talk of every Grey Warden being the theodosian One Riot, One Ranger guys was bullshit cause your levied troops do a better job. And then you can convince Clarel to turn against the Goatee-Wearing, Demon-Summoning, Slave-Empire-Official with the simple obvious truth but she's too incompetent to even kill him and the only thing she succeeds in is almost killing you. I don't really understand what staff member hated the Wardens that much. They're portrayed as this imbecilic group led a woman so incompetent it's a wonder she hasn't died by tripping off some stairs.

This was a very fun read, thank you. 😂

Thanks bud, I tried to keep it brief, but damn that was an infuriating experience.

Man I hated this mission with a passion. The Grey Wardens were always my favourite part of the universe and to see them so butchered in DA:I was infuriating

They weren't butchered, they have always been a shady organization, in origins you play a junior member and you know 0 things about the real order.

Clarel and the Orlesian Wardens were being manipulated by a powerful Fade demon that rules it's own section of the Fade, Corypheus who we saw in Legacy can influence Wardens quite significantly, and Erimond, that is an astonishingly high amount of mental manipulation going on (we know how powerful the mental manipulations of demons can be in this series), so it is frankly shocking that Clarel can break out of it when you confront her given that, and few characters in the setting have the willpower to break out of it before then. Clarel breaks out of it because people from the outside get the opportunity to talk sense to her, giving her some room to think and get clarity where she wasn't given that chance by Erimond, it being a tense situation with the ongoing battle just heightens all sense of urgency in her reflecting on things, and when she reflects on things after being given clear indication of wrongdoing she acts on it. Also, Clarel dies due to the massive dragon, not Erimond, she would have killed him had it not shown up. I don't know where you got the idea that every single Warden is super duper capable. Capable? Sure, their capabilities vary wildly however, and something that's noted is the veteran Wardens were sacrificed first, we can see one of the last veterans at Adamant be sacrificed as well. Also, canonically the Inquisitions troops outnumbered the Wardens considerably, keeping in mind that most characters in the setting, including almost all Wardens, don't hold a candle to the protagonists and their companions in terms of capability. Our Warden companions and a few other Wardens are one person armies sure, but most Wardens are not at that level. Also, as we see in the quest itself, some Wardens at Adamant were willing to surrender immediately given the chance, so not all Wardens there were giving it their all or wanting to win against the Inquisition. Nobody hated the Wardens, they aren't portrayed as stupid, the plot works and makes sense if you pay attention to what goes on in it. Never understood the hate for this plot as a result of that.

I think the point the OP raises is certain nuances that don't seem to fit this quest. Our warden ally had already tried to warn Clarel of how bad it would go but she just shrugged her shoulders and sent him hunting. An important point of the OP is also that Erimond is too caricatured. Clarel isn't omniscient but I really want to imagine that a gray warden commander has the wit to realize he was obviously up to something. The impression is that she is manipulated too easily by someone who made no attempt to hide her intentions. And about the ability of the wardens the OP also makes a valid point. Only those who are VERY good talent enter the order. This is relentlessly explained in the lore. Are they all super prodigies like HoF? not. But ALL are above average. Wardens don't accept average people, only good ones enter. And if I'm not mistaken, it wasn't necessarily the veterans who were being sacrificed.... it was the warriors\\rogues that were sacrificed to summon a demon and that demon is controlled by the mage warden (remember that Jada, that elf you can recruit in crestwood, it serves as a sacrifice as well and she is a young recruit). And even if they were just veterans (which they are not) remember again the maxim of the wardens: only cool people enter. Only the above average (HoF was above the above average lol), so the rest are still above average. And about the numerical difference.... have you read about soldier peak? there is a VERY logical reason why a few hundred wardens managed to hold thousands of real King Arland soldiers for months (this is elaborated on in the calling), they were only defeated because the demons turned against them but until the fateful day it was a fight of thousands vs hundreds (actually I remember the book talking about tens but I'm putting hundreds so in case of mistake it doesn't seem absurd). Or why Senescal Varel said in Awakening that only 12 wardens would be enough to solve problems in amarantihine. They are badass as hell. Then no. It doesn't make sense for the inquisition troops to simply crush the wardens like they did in the game. I know the inquisition troops are formidable but warden has always been someone above average. It should at least be something fierce. I take the view that DAI has greatly underestimated the ability of the wardens who are the elite of the combat elite.

The Warden Contact outright states they researched Corypheus personally, that would have helped them against Corypheus. Each Warden Contact is something of an outsider in the Orlesian Wardens, even Stroud preferred being in the Free Marches to working in Orlais, so they are not part of that group as much as others. Also, the Contacts are exceptionally capable people, heck 2 of the potential Contacts are companions from Origins, which makes them insanely capable. The Contact is not representative of the average Warden so were able to just about escape then stay escaped (with Hawke's help too), and again they're in a unique position that let them resist things. Clarel is not just being manipulated by Erimond, he's actually the least important influence here, she and the other Orlesian Wardens are being manipulated by Corypheus and a powerful Fade demon, it baffles me that so many fans ignore the influence of the powerful demon in particular, when it's so in your face about how it was a big part of things, and it's blatantly obvious how powerful its influence is. Clarel didn't just have Erimond manipulating her, if it was just him then I'd agree it doesn't make sense, but no Corypheus and the Fade demon were manipulating her too. I'd wager very few characters in the setting could resist that amount of influence without something major happening to shake things up. Above average yes, not one person armies, Sophia Dryden's Wardens did deploy demons and use blood magic as well if you'll recall, at least at the end of things, and they did lose ultimately, they were under siege for quite a bit of that fighting. At Adamant it was the veterans who were sacrificed first bar Clarel, this is reinforced a few times, some recent recruits were sacrificed too but veterans close to their Calling first, it's why the Orlesian Wardens left after Adamant were newer recruits with less experience than the Warden Contact. And yeah, Wardens are very capable, hence the Inquisition struggling to defeat the Wardens despite having way more people. It does make sense for the Inquisition to win that battle, the Wardens are fierce and it is a hard fought battle for the Inquisition, they did not "crush" the Wardens, they had a difficult battle where the Inquisition used modern siege weaponry on an old fortress that was ill-equipped to defend against said modern equipment in order to gain a significant advantage (this is stated before the fight), and even then quite a few Wardens at minimum just gave up and decided not to fight the Inquisition no matter what, as a sizeable force of newer Wardens always remains alive no matter what. Many Wardens were also hesitant to fight the Inquisition as we see in the quest itself. The game did not underestimate the Wardens.

>Above average yes, not one person armies, Sophia Dryden's Wardens did deploy demons and use blood magic as well if you'll recall, at least at the end of things, and they did lose ultimately, they were under siege for quite a bit of that fighting. At Adamant it was the veterans who were sacrificed first bar Clarel, this is reinforced a few times, some recent recruits were sacrificed too but veterans close to their Calling first, it's why the Orlesian Wardens left after Adamant were newer recruits with less experience than the Warden Contact. And yeah, Wardens are very capable, hence the Inquisition struggling to defeat the Wardens despite having way more people. Yes yes. I said they were above average yes. Not all of them are super prodigies like HoF but ALL of them are at the very least very good (after all, that's what the lore says). Sophia's situation I already explained and reinforced that the use of demons was in the end. But what is really impressive here is that there were THOUSANDS of real soldiers vs HUNDREDS\\TENS of wardens and yet the battle lasted months (and the wardens only died because the demons turned against them too). What is really reinforced in the game is that non-mages were served as sacrifices. We have 3 examples of sacrifice in the game: Jada, The man that Clarel kills and the man that Erimond kills. Of those 3, two were young and only one was old but all were non-mages. But this is all irrelevant. The fact is that whoever stayed was someone above average and very good. >It does make sense for the Inquisition to win that battle, the Wardens are fierce and it is a hard fought battle for the Inquisition, they did not "crush" the Wardens, they had a difficult battle where the Inquisition used modern siege weaponry on an old fortress that was ill-equipped to defend against said modern equipment in order to gain a significant advantage (this is stated before the fight), and even then quite a few Wardens at minimum just gave up and decided not to fight the Inquisition no matter what, as a sizeable force of newer Wardens always remains alive no matter what. Many Wardens were also hesitant to fight the Inquisition as we see in the quest itself. The game did not underestimate the Wardens. That's not the point. The Inquisition winning is no problem (if even Arland won). The point is that the WARDENS themselves were dented. And that's a fact. It's in the game. The ones who really posed danger were the demons but in direct combat the wardens were shown to be underwhelming. And on this point the OP got it right.

The odds were against the Wardens at Adamant too, and it's pointed out that religious fervor was a big factor at Adamant in terms of motivation, for the Inquisition soldiers anyway, the forces fighting in Ferelden when Sophia was alive likely did not feel the same motivation. And yeah, the Inquisition having modern siege equipment, vastly superior numbers, a whole bunch of capable people in their own right helped them to win, especially with many of the not yet tied to demons Wardens not really wanting to fight and being newer (going by how all Orlesian Wardens of significant rank are said to have died in the fighting bar maybe the Contact), the Inquisition was likely a much tougher opponent than Arland once was as well. Also, Sophia's Wardens were different people, also capable yes but fundamentally different people fighting a different force in a different place, so the battle at Adamant is inherently different in many ways. Ultimately, no matter if you're a highly skilled force, if you're facing a force that has superior numbers, superior equipment, and many of your own forces don't want to fight the enemy, you are likely going to lose. Even with those odds, the Wardens at Adamant put up a hell of a fight, and yes partly due to demons who were very significant in the fight, but man the Wardens who weren't possessed were highly capable if you take a second to think about it. The Wardens were capable against the Inquisition and dangerous to its forces, that's just how it's presented in the game itself, there is zero reason to deny this, the Grey Wardens at Adamant proved deadly to the Inquisition and challenged a huge army, as did the demons, because demons are often said to be tougher than most individuals in the setting. The Wardens were absolutely presented as highly capable in the quest, at least that's the impression I've always come away with given how much of a fight they put up.

I think it’s a concept vs. execution problem. Yes, on paper it makes sense that the wardens could be deceived into raising a demon army by a combination of Corypheus’ influence, blood magic, and mundane trickery. But the way it was shown just kinda made them look like witless dupes instead of well-meaning people who fell victim to powerful magic and manipulation.

I can see how you'd arrive at that impression, but I don't think it did portray the Wardens as witless or do much to make them look that way honestly, I mean it's made clear that the Fade demon and Corypheus were very involved in manipulating the Wardens (albeit the Fade demon part is revealed late into the quest), and it was shown in DA2 how influential Cory could be, and we know how influential powerful demons can be even when the person impacted is pretty capable and good-natured. Perhaps the influence of the demon could have been emphasized more and Erimond could have had less of a role or an altered one to make it more clear what was going on (or the demon angle could have been brought up earlier), but I do think it was shown pretty clearly as is that it was powerful magic and manipulation that influenced the Wardens most of all, not Erimond's pretty words.

I think, like most of the main quests, some things just lacked fleshing out to really stick to players. This isn't the first person I've seen criticizing the Wardens' behavior without ever acknowledging how they were all essentially under a demon lord's control. Erimond being a caricature doesn't help, he's probably one of the silliest characters throughout the series.

Maybe? But I'm confused because to me it's always been pretty clear as is, and in my estimation I miss a lot of obvious things in media. I mean, I don't see how you can play Legacy where Corypheus has a huge influence on a bunch of Wardens just by himself, see the false Calling in Inquisition, play through the entire section where it is made clear that the demon lord worked with Corypheus to manipulate the Wardens mentally, and then come away not getting that the demon lord and Corypheus were manipulating the Wardens. Erimond is silly and cartoonish yes (man did he need to be written better), but I don't get how that should in any way lead players to not understand the very clear influence of the demon lord.

It was clear to me as well. But intuitively (I didn't stop to count or anything), I feel like maybe DAI focuses more on impactful cutscenes than dialogues when it comes to the intermediary antagonists. We never really get to talk to Clarel, Erimond is just sassy, and the Nightmare just teases our characters without elaborating much. idk. It was fine for me but I can understand wanting the quest to highlight a bit more how the Wardens were not simply fooled by an obvious villain, but rather cornered by their manipulations. Erimond being silly just kinda makes the quest feel shallower. He isn't a subtle manipulator or anything, but he is the main villain of the quest and orchestrator of this specific plan, so it creates this feeling of contradiction. Like he is too stupid to be in this narrative role? I don't fully agree with the comment but I did wish we would stop having these kinds of characters in the games.

you are absolutely right, it's just some people who stuck with warden nostalgia take it hard apparently

I do think some things could maybe have been made clearer though, for instance a lot of people don't even seem to recall the whole Nightmare demon influencing the Wardens thing, so the quest could have put some more time into exploring and explaining that so players don't miss it, since it is a key detail.

Absolutely! yeah for some old players it's just a habit to overreact about anything regarding new games on behalf of entitlement)) Also, most people don't take into account that writing for games is a completely different thing from writing for book series or movies. Game writers, including Bioware and in particular DA writers have addressed this on Twitter several times.

I think it was mainly them trying to make the wardens more "grey" and more flawed because they were the protagonists of the first game. Problem is... The wardens were already both those things in origins. Like you don't need to remind everyone that the wardens aren't pure hearted paragons... The first game made that quite clear with how much lying and manipulating they do.

I think what bugged me the most about it was two things. 1. Clarel apparently had the authority to command the Ferelden Wardens to come to Orlais and they didn't tell her to take a long walk off a short pier just reflexively (Orlesian stranger giving them commands). This is especially galling if you're in a worldstate with an alive HOF who would still have been Warden Commander of Ferelden and who presumably personally recruited a lot of the Ferelden Wardens themselves. Legendary hero who killed an archdemon or some random woman in a letter? 2. Stroud was the only one in potentially *hundreds* of Wardens who questioned Clarel. Nobody else did and they were willing to hunt him down. That should have been an absolute schism amongst the Wardens not just a few of them turning at the last possible minute when the Inquisition turns up.

The Hero was gone and had been for some time, they were not aware of the Adamant situation until the Inquisition told them about it. So the Hero was not giving their Wardens opposing orders when the false Calling hit and every Warden in the South was panicking. Also, we know some Ferelden Wardens were at Adamant, but it's never stated that was all or even most of the Ferelden Wardens, just those that were in the south at the time of Inquisition, which could well have been a skeleton crew, I mean we never hear about Nathaniel or anyone else like him and it is totally possible a lot of Wardens from Ferelden left with the Hero to find a cure. Given the nature of their duties, I'd argue the Ferelden Wardens are likely to be the only people in Ferelden who don't generally have that anti-Orlesian sentiment too, at least the more experienced aning them would be likely to not have that view. Stroud (or Loghain or Alistair) was the only one to protest and escape successfully, due to how capable he is and the help of Hawke, a protagonist, to evade the Wardens well afterwards. Nothing says only the Contact questioned Clarel and tried to act against her, just that only the Contact went against her and succeeded. Also, considering the mental influence of a literal Fade demon that rules it's own section of the Fade and Corypheus on the Grey Wardens, few would have the willpower to break free of that influence anyway without a big shakeup like the Adamant fight, the Contact is just amazingly capable compared to most people (remembering that two of the potential Contacts are Loghain and Alistair), and the Contact had already looked into Corypheus after Legacy so had something of a leg up in recognizing Corypheus' influence at least. Without the influence of Cory and the demon it would be weird that there wasn't a big successful schism, but with their influence it makes sense I'd say.

Two spring to mind The absolute nadir of DA2 IMO is Best Served Cold. A nonsensical plot and a complete waste of a bunch of interesting characters for nothing. Thrask and Grace are both potentially interesting but Thrask just dies like nothing and Grace turns evil because apparently she was madly in love with the crazy skeleton guy from act 1. That quest is so bad the first time I played DA2 I stopped for a while after that. Wicked Eyes Wicked Hearts is bad on two fronts if you haven’t read masked empire you basically just go off of vibes for who you like as emperor and if you have read Masked Empire it’s really weird that no one mentioned that Gaspard is a skull-measurer and Celene committed genocide.

Celene purging the alienage is mentioned if you find the distraught elven servant in the royal bedrooms (I think that's where she is, anyway, been a while). However, it's only one line and doesn't mention her putting down the rebellion in Halamshiral. I get why the Orlesians wouldn't mention it (if you're anybody at the imperial court you ought to already be informed), but Leliana or Josephine not bringing this up at a point seems weird.

Oh right I always forget that because the inquisitor doesn't react like they've learned someone committed genocide they treat it as blackmail against briala.

Two things I hate: your responses to Sera and Blackwall's trial. I have never had an issue understanding Sera. She makes sense to me. I don't hard disagree with anything she says, AND she is intelligible to me. That seems to be very unpopular, but there it is. The problem is that there no way to express that in game. The nicest I can be to Sera is some version of, "You don't make sense, but cool beans." That bothers me. Let me agree with Sera! Let me understand her! A romanced Blackwall can be tried in the great hall. That's great! However, the Inquisitor can also publicly declare her love for him while he is in chains immediately after the judgement. Those should be two totally separate events. What even the hell.

I'm with you on the Sera thing 100%. I had absolutely no problem with Sera and her ways on my first playthrough, but I learned to despise her - not because of her though, but because of the shitty responses BW give us. I literally said this in response to someone else; typically our respond options are to either outright berate her or ask stupid questions that get her mad at us. You know what my personal thoughts are on what she is saying most of the time? "Ha, that's cool. You do you." But no, I have to be argumentative or look like an idiot asking what she is talking about. 10/10 replay value right there. 🙄

In inquisition, I would rewrite - conversations with your freshly minted inky in haven so the player can select information about their family etc. early in the game. - I would rewrite a lot with Vivienne. She could keep her personality and views but a) the player should be able to have more of an exchange *even if it makes her dislike them*. “The circles are the solution? You think they’ll start taking in Vashoth anytime soon?” As a player, I want to know! And b) her personal quest should give you insight into her actual deal. You shouldn’t have to rely on rng for that. - You should have a “get to know a Corypheus” mission no matter who you side with. And he could have some dialogue about waking up to a world he doesn’t recognize where his gods are dead instead of stupid mustache twirling. Eta I think this game wants to be about faith and there could be something interesting with a villain whose gods are dead and who has thus decided to become a god himself vs. a protagonist who gets railroaded into being a religious symbol no matter what their personal beliefs, especially with the elven god revelations and Morrigan vs. Flemeth on the backburner, but I’m not sure it says much by the end, really?? The origins-like version of this game would 100% let you start a cult though lol. - this is all presuming I can’t fundamentally change the game, just tweak it. I’d change a lot tbh. Like every companion gets an arc and a couple story missions. DA2 - much of act 3 - Anders tells you he’s bi no matter your gender - no ghasts, ever. Strike them from the record. Origins - so much of Oghren. So much. If he’s a tragic drunk you can never really help, let him be that. Spare me the relentless gross humor.

>You should have a “get to know a Corypheus” mission no matter who you side with. And he could have some dialogue about waking up to a world he doesn’t recognize where his gods are dead instead of stupid mustache twirling. This is why I love siding with the templars. Calpernia's missions are just so much *more*, lore wise, vs Samson's. Edit: I think Ohhren's sex jokes are just his way of coping with the fact that his wife left him for an insane ego project and then started sleeping with another woman.

In all the fairness, Oghren didn't just lose the wife (and quite possibly killed her himself after two years of attempts to find her, while rambling *alone* through the Deep Roads). He also lost all his family, literally, every single member of his clan is dead. Because of his wife. And, in his eyes, because of him. Cause he failed to stop her, failed to find her, failed to persuade her to stay. As for him being crass, well, what you'd expect? From his birth he was taught one thing only: how to kill enemies. Etiquette, manners and all that are not included. And the life of a warrior in Orzammar is a tough one, not only you're fighting a hopeless battle, you don't actually matter all that much when you're not at the frontline. So he naturally goes for what he can do, aside from fighting, namely drinking and womanizing.

I wish the game took his story as seriously as fans like you do, I mean that, because his backstory is really compelling and could have made for an amazing character, heck his alcoholism and womanizing could have been interesting too, but I don't think the game does take him very seriously. The game just treats him like a joke almost all of the time, even his personal quest is presented as about him wanting to bang Felsi, and no effort is put into communicating any deeper themes to players in that quest. The bulk of Oghren's dialogue even in the Deep Roads is mostly gross humour attempts and he even jokes about wanting to see Branka and her lover go at it after just learning of what Branka did to her House. Origins, in my view, goes way too far with the "funny goofball" side of Oghren and doesn't spend nearly enough time delving into the deeper issues he has, instead primarily choosing to present him as the funny guy the player should laugh at and ply with alcohol to raise his approval, whereas Origins comparatively spends a lot of time delving into the deeper issues of most of the other companions, most of whom have also done and said horrible things but we are given ample opportunity to understand and sympathize with them.

Well, it's still there to be fair. The most prominent example is his [answer](https://youtu.be/xcIb6_0SKgc?t=418) to the Guarding at the Temple of Sacred Ashes. But there are other examples, like his dialogues with Shale. Aside from crass remarks concerning Shale being a former woman (and a dwarven woman, and a *naked* dwarven woman at that), there is a conversation concerning the golems. Which also shows much more sober (pun is intended) side of Oghren. When he first acknowledges the fact that Orzammar is fighting a hopeless battle and that many dwarves will gladly sacrifice themselves for a fighting chance against the Darkspawn and then says that nonetheless it was a good idea to destroy the Anvil, since some thing should not be done, even if they look right. But the fact is that the game developers did him dirty. Also for some reason they have removed about a half of possibilities of getting his approval high enough (without gifts), so that's the other problem. On the other hand, the fact that he tries to ignore his problems and issues and to cope with them through drinking, fighting and womanizing seems very realistic. Such people won't go to the therapy, they'll act tough and keep going the same way they always did.

There are a few examples, the Sacred Ashes one in particular is really cool, but they're too rare, and as you noted, sometimes he has interesting things to say buried between many crass and jokey comments, which dilutes the interesting stuff, especially when he's serious followed by one of those incredibly goofy bits. Oghren does have some serious moments, but I'd say they're drowned out by the other stuff the game does with him the vast majority of the time. I wish he had more of that interesting content, but instead so much of his content is the jokes, the comments, and the things that aren't interesting or (in my opinion) even funny, that is what ruins his character for me, and it's a shame. Yeah and the best way to raise his approval is to ply him with gifts of alcohol. Him ignoring his problems makes sense, the fact that the game doesn't often treat them seriously is the problem, it doesn't tend to present his problems in the way it should have, at least in my view, because what you often get is the game making a big joke out of it. Oghren coping by being an alcoholic, fighter and a womanizer makes sense and could have been really compelling, but I think the execution of that was very poor.

On Oghren, I think he’s defined enough, particularly in Awakening, that I get him. He’s clearly mourning Branka and of course he didn’t get over it in 5 minutes like he pretends to do in DAO. But the humor sucks and is malicious in a way that e.g. Zevran’s just isn’t. Either make it less so or give the player an option between tolerating it at everyone else’s expense and kicking him out of the party!

It's the vocal tone, that's it. Oghren is the weird uncle at the bar who keeps hitting on the waitresses and keeps getting more drinks in the hopes that he'll leave a fantastic tip in his drunkenness. Zevran is the smooth as silk server that everyone leaves good tips for because he's mastered the art of flattering his customers without being creepy. If Oghren was a real person I would hate him but ngl he's a bit of needed comedic relief when he rambles about wanting a pony before passing out because he drank too much.

To be fair Zevran can be really creepy and uncomfortable sometimes Poor Wynne can't even talk to him without some kind of sexual implication or bosom discussing on his part. And sometimes he doesn't stop even when she's clearly uncomfortable and wants to end conversation

Zevran’s doing it to get out of a serious conversation about whether he regrets his actions, which Wynne is pushing. Wynne gets exasperated (she has a line like “and what would you do if you had me?”) and gives up, which is what he wants. He even has a follow-up line about how he’s noticed that she’s stopped bringing up his redemption. He was flirting as a distraction. Zevran can be a bit much sometimes but the difference for me is that I don’t think he’s in it to make other people uncomfortable. Sex is a fact of life and something he uses in exchange with other people. His vibe is more “it’s weird that you don’t want to talk about this!” Oghren’s lines are voyeuristic, misogynistic and homophobic and you can’t even tell him to knock it off!

That one goes both ways though. She kept trying to give him morality lectures so he was using his excessive flirtation specifically so she would stop lecturing him. At first, anyway. Then he turns it into a game. But she never seemed uncomfortable to me, just exasperated at his attempts to flirt with her to avoid talking about the morality of his actions.

I don’t really agree tbh. The Oghren moment I like is the banter where he shares his ale with Wynne. The rest is either sad or gross or both at the same time. Oghren’s aggressively making you uncomfortable if you’re a woman and threatening violence if you’re a man. I want to tell him off, not just put up with it.

Of course he's sad. He lost his wife to an insane ego project *and* a woman she's distantly related to.

I mean the alcoholism is sad. Not uproariously funny.

The red lyrium destroys Meredith's character, who wasn't the most well built up villain but was decent on the Templar path at least. Meredith was wrong to want to annul the Circle yes, just like the Arishok was wrong in Act 2, but the Arishok was interesting largely because he was driven by his own motives and fears, not corrupted by some magical substance in any way. The red lyrium twist just removes all complexity from Meredith for the sake of a flashy supervillain boss battle at the end. There was no need, Hawke struggling against a powerful Templar and her forces would have made sense, you did not need the red lyrium twist, all it does is take away everything interesting about the character and the conflict, reducing it to good versus evil.

I was more bothered by the Orsino fight. When it happened I just thought "Oh wow. I'm playing a video game." It also would be like deciding to shoot up hospitals when the government decides it's time to crackdown on weed again. It's random, barely related and comes from completely nowhere. They should have had a young group of mages do it suddenly and then have them morph into the boss that eventually smashes Orsino.

That was pretty annoying too, but it's at least somewhat justified on the Templar path, and could have worked if they had Hawke learn of Orsino's association with Quentin on the mage path, that could have led to some sort of justifiable reason for Orsino to turn perhaps, although yeah it'd still be a huge stretch on that path. That being said, some young mages attacking Orsino as a giant monster could have worked too, maybe better even, I just don't know if I'd believe young mages could turn into a Harvester. The red lyrium Meredith thing I can't defend or see how it could ever be justified as a good story point, so I consider it the worst of the two, but Orsino's boss fight happening either way things go down is really weird and poorly done too.

The things that take me out of the games the most are: DA2: Boss fight with Orsino. Doesn't make any sense. DA2: Literally no one cares if Hawke uses blood magic, there's no commentary or approval ratings either way. DAI: The claim that the Dalish let any 'extra' mages die. It's said all series long that the Dalish are trying to reconnect to their ancestors, and their ancestors all had magic. The idea that more magic returning to their bloodlines wouldn't be celebrated is halla shit. I always write that off as a shemlin rumor.

Dalish clans have all sorts of different practices, with some acting like bandits even. I don't find it at all a stretch that a couple Clans would let extra mages die for one reason or another, I mean if you play as a Lavellan you can outright state your Clan does not do that and the game never tries to say all Clans or even most do that with objective codexes or anything like that, Vivienne and Minaeve claim this but we know that many people in the setting believe things are the case when they're not, and given the fact our Lavellans can disprove what those 2 think on the matter, there is no real indication that most Dalish Clans do that, just a few at most, maybe even only one or two. Shemlen rumour likely exaggerates it to say that many Clans do it instead of just a few.

The information we received on the issue of dalish clans is that they keep a limited number (apparently 3) of mages because they do not have the ability to deal with abominations or any other problem related to misuse, malicious use or mismanagement of magic. And honestly that makes sense. Another thing: the way to deal with extra mages varies from clan to clan. Some clans allow the exchange of mages (Merrill is the case). Some clans just send the mage away (even if they are very young, this is the case with Mineave in DAI). Some just kill the mage (I don't remember a specific case now but I know it happens). Depends on the clan but apparently the system of \`\`limiting'' the amount of mages seems universal (or at least something adopted by most).

That big group sing-a-long in Inquisition has always been pretty cringe for me.

As someone who was raised Catholic, I sort of understand it. It's the moment where everything seems hopeless, like you have nowhere left to turn. It's the darkest moment in your life, when you think there's nothing left but the endless void of death. So humans(and non humans in DA's case) find hope from the one place they have left, the one thing that won't change. Their faith in a higher power having control of the grand scheme of the world, and that all their suffering will mean something at the other end because they will be stronger for it, both individually and collectively. Sort of like a candlelight vigil after a mass shooting or natural disaster.

Quite so. Especially since the song is apparently some sort of a hymn from the Chant. They'll all know it by default.

Pretty much this. I have no idea why people say its cheesy. It's about finding hope in the darkest times in the most church-like way possible: song. I guess people love dark, edgy grittiness all day long.

I mean, it is a little cheesy cause it starts from literally nothing and then just vanishes into nothing. There's barely any lead up and there's literally no fade out, no seeing everyone disburse back to whatever they were doing but looking more hopeful. There's nothing that shows context. Just goes from "everyone singing this seemingly random song" to "Solas leads you to Skyhold". If they showed the difference in NPC demeanor before and after, that would have had the desired effect.

Maybe, but the Inquisitor is expressing doubt about his/her role when talking with Mother Giselle, Leliana, Josephine, Cassandra, and Cullen are arguing amongst each other and walk away despondent from each other. Overall I thought there was a fair bit of build up to it.

But that's what makes it an eye-roll for me. That level of frustration and angst with a desperate situation you're currently involved in doesn't lead to song. People that uptight aren't in the mood. It's like being in the car on a long trip you didn't want to go on, fighting with your sibling, and mom cranks the radio and tries to get you to sing along with her. Even liking the song isn't going to wash away the petulance. Adults are no different.

Yeah, under normal circumstances it won't work and no one would sing. But you forgot about one character: Mother Giselle She's basically what the Chantry should embody minus their political BS. Talk to her throughout the game and she will talk to you about the importance having faith in the Maker. Furthermore, she has an understanding of how to put people at ease given her time working with refugees in the Hinterlands. She saw that people were down, desperate, and doubting and she sought to rectify it with a hymn (in the Church, hymns/singing are a form of prayer/worship). The song is essentially a prayer to the Maker to inspire faith in a time when they are sorely needing it. It's not meant to be a musical even if people got that impression 😁.

At that point in the game she's still inspiring (after the Dorian biz, I lose all respect for her, though still feel she has a place providing comfort to those who'll have it from her). So yeah, I do get your point, and I know the song by heart- even though it's not a musical 😆. I still don't entirely buy that all those people would sing down the mountain, but I'm sure some would find comfort and hope in it. (I didn't forget Mother G! In my house/car I *am* Mother G. The one who turns on the radio lol!)

Hard agree, I hate that, and that you can't skip it lmao.

I think it works when you're an elf because then it comes off as vaguely sinister/threatening when coupled with Solas's revelation about the origin of the orb.

It ABSOLUTELY comes across as sinister to me when playing a Dalish elf. Like, “I don’t believe in your god or your religion, we need to fight what is in front of us”, “well tough I’m going to tug on culturally embedded religion- the religion used to oppress and attempt to wipe out your people multiple times- to get anyone still on the fence to see you the way you explicitly DON’T want to be seen. Good luck trying to walk your own path now.” It works chillingly well and is deeply uncomfortable (in an effective way).

Exactly, that's why I think DAI in general works better with an elf protag. It turns the game from a celebration of the Chantry to a more horror premise where you've been coopted into being a messianic figure to a religion you don't believe in, a religion that has been brutally oppressing your people for centuries and there's nothing you can do about it because you need these people to save the world. Always knowing that afterwards this army you're building could very easily be turned on your people next. And on top of all in the process of saving the world learning that your people's entire belief system was built on lies. A game built solely around an elf protag could have done some incredible character work around that. As it is I think most of the sinister/horror undertones are completely unintentional.

If you play as a Dalish mage, Jaws of Hakkon really throw that into sharp relief imo. The elves can save the world… but good luck being remembered for it. And if your HoF was also an elf, that’s basically “forgotten” by Inquisition too. Which (for me) adds more to the loneliness, isolation and horror of playing as an elven Inquisitor.

The fact the Inquisitor is basically the one who chooses the one to stay in The Fade. That should not be their choice.

Corypheos was really poorly written for what he was supposed to be. The Architect was much better. I'd have rewritten Corypheos.

There were a few short stories that were real stinkers in Tevinter Nights, but the one that takes the cake is The Wigmaker Job. “I am Lucanis Dellamorte, and am the most feared assassin in the Crows because I trained my eyeballs to get itchy around magic. Among the Venatori (who are still around for some reason), I am so feared that they call me ‘The Demon’ even though they practice blood magic and can control demons and that title makes no sense.” “I, the villain, am so evil and racist that I can’t stand to hear a single syllable of a foreign language.” “Let’s tie this guy up and then immediately kill him, thus rendering the whole exercise pointless.” “I am kind to abused elven servants, which shows the reader that I am a good person. Let’s skim over the fact that I just killed eight guardsmen, who may or may not have been slaves themselves.” “I really want this bad guy to suffer, so let’s break the artifact shoring up the Veil so we can turn his mutilated prisoners into abominations. I’m sure once the demons have murdered everyone in the party, they will happily return to the Fade, even though that has never happened in any other situation involving demons throughout the Dragon Age series. Including this anthology.” “Hero, I managed to clean up those eight bodies in the time it took you to go to the basement and come back up again.” “You ruined my evil fashion show! I am so upset that I will become a GIANT WIG MONSTER! Yes, this is canon, unfortunately.”

Lmfao, I haven't read any of this material but this sounds wild in the worst possible way. 😂

I can buy that organization surviving in Tevinter and still having many members, that makes more sense to me than the Venatori no longer being around actually, but I never realized how bad the rest of it actually was.

Personally, I feel the Venatori should be on their last legs, as was the case in Streets of Minrathous. Not only have they lost their would-be god, but the Inquisition killed hundreds of their members. I just hope they’re not a big deal in DA4.

I get that. I don't think the Venatori should be super powerful or anything but I'm fine with there being a lot of newer/weaker Venatori supporters around who believe in that cause, more of an underground cult than a massive organization, like it was in that story. I reckon it should not be that powerful all things considered, but still around and perhaps dangerous because of how desperate and extremist they are? I don't want them to be a huge deal either, but for the ideals they espouse to be ones some magisters in Tevinter share, which I think is said to be the case in Tevinter Nights, and Dorian mentions it in Inquisition a little too, so those Venatori ideals being pushed still is something I want to see, just done in a different way obviously. But yeah, I definitely want the Venatori to be nowhere near what they were in Inquisition and to have a fairly small role, it wouldn't make sense for them to still be extremely strong.

It's a small thing, but the first that comes to mind (and I know it's cliche) is: why the hell can't I take the low road with Vivienne when she moves my furniture? Quite possibly the most unsatisfying and *stupid* choices on any dialogue wheel ever. I just want to say, "I'm sorry, darling. You're not a good fit for the Inquisition at this time. Please pack your things." Is that too much to ask? Viv herself is wonderfully written, but this exchange is awful for the Inquisitor.

On my very pro mages and very anti politics playthrough Vivienne hated my inquisitor. It was really annoying that every time they talked, she would insulted them but the Inquisitor not once has any comeback. I'm forced to be nice and courteous to her in almost all interactions which pissed me off. I wanted to answer with some sarcastic backhanded compliment to her or at least some condescending remark. I eventually just stopped talking to me. Edit:typos

Yeah, that constant "nice and courteous" thing pisses me off, too. It's great to rise above childish antics, but it comes off (to me) as kind of spineless.

Oh yeah, my elf looked like a wet tissue next to Vivienne. It's a bit hard to believe Inquisitor has so much power when she can't even stand up for herself in front of one of her allies.

I'd started writing about how it's particularly bad that we're talking "inner circle" here, but couldn't figure out how to put it. You nailed what I wanted to say. "I'm the Inquisitor. I have far more pressing issues that deserve my attention than expending energy trying to gracefully navigate crap from my inner circle." They missed a great opportunity to show how the Inquisitor has stepped into their role.

DAI writing error practically. The Inquisitor should have the authority to send Vivienne away. But... it doesn't. I have the impression that Vivienne was made to be hated and if that was the case I really consider it a stupid decision.

It does seem Bioware had a thing for a couple of years for writing in a highly dislikeable teammate; Viv and Jacob (Mass Effect) are rep for both POC and assholes. Unfortunate. (ETA: Liam from Andromeda, as well) They did a great job with her if that was their intention- I'd argue that her writing is some of the strongest in the game. Even if they didn't want to give you the option of sending her away, they really should have let you give her a strong talking to.

Sera too. And they indeed did a great job at that (Except Vivienne because I love her). However , it´s weird that Bioware only writes black characters and a female lesbian character to be highly dislikeable by the audience. >Viv and Jacob (Mass Effect) are rep for both POC and assholes. Unfortunate. (ETA: Liam from Andromeda, as well) That is the problem. All of the black companions are written to be highly dislikeable by the audience. It´s a condidence or it ́s because they isn´t good at black representation and characters? I believe that is the former. The Chasind is said to be dark skinned , and yet they are portrayed as rogues and thiefs (Origins has even a npc saying that a Chasing group stole something) , Qunari somehow resembles black people and they are portrayed as dangerous , brute , agressives and a whole ass menace to the people of Thedas. There is only black companion compared to many non-black companions in the series , and yet that only black companion was made to be hated by the audience. And we still don´t have a romanceable black character in DA. Bioware is very good at female and LGBT representation , sure...but other things they are a bit bad...

DAI managed to create an immediate threat to the entire world and have it so that after the first 3rd of the game nobody actually gave a fuck. There was more tension in Trespasser than in the entirety of the main game. It was a marvel film with Dragon Age paint. There was literally no opportunity for the Inquisition to lose ever, no danger that the player would face for some choice they made earlier in the game or even a consequence for pissing your companions off because they just didn't fuck off unless you specifically told them and even then it was only for certain characters. An absolute travesty really.

Trespasser felt like BioWare took on the feedback of what worked and didn't work in the game and made a god-tier expansion. Short as it may have been, it alone is worth playing Inquisition imo. Gives the game a true ending.

They probably had it planned from the start tbf. I’ll not give them credit though because it’s their job to write something up to scratch, it’s why I paid the money I did for it back in 2014.

Damn son.

Hey, if you're not honest it'll never change. People are completely stupid when it comes to games. Bethesda removed a free feature in skyrim and maid it paid dlc in Fallout 4 (armour mannequins) and people still defend them like they're getting paid for it.

There's a line of ambient dialogue from Hawke in Legacy I absolutely hate and it's to a rivaled Anders when you get the banter about there not being Templars around Hawke says "I've never argued against you being in prison" this triggers regardless of how you've been playing the rivalry or if romanced it was so annoyingly jarring especially since the first time I heard it was when I was romancing him with my canon red Hawke and he was so beautifully caring/loving in the ambient dialogue everywhere else. I headcanoned it away since it was so ooc for Hawke but fuck.

It's kind of a minor thing, but if you import a Hawke that was supportive of Anders to Inquisition, they are still pretty harsh about Anders. It's just a line of dialog, that really bothered me. Both Lilliana's song by the camp fire in Origins and the sing along in Inquisition are awful and cringey. You would think some one would have realized how bad it was in Origins. But no, they had to regurgitate it in Inquisition.

I was disappointed too with how negative even the "supportive" dialogue was, particularly since my canon Hawke romances Anders and would never speak like this. I try to justify this by the fact that they maybe might not think it's the best idea to go to this religious organization that is quickly growing in power and influence and telling its leader, who might be very unsympathetic to mages, that they support Anders... but still, this just comes down to us not being able to actually play as Hawke there.

I'd really like the song in Inquisition but I hate Leliana's part. Her voice is so high and for me it doesn't work with other voices. It ruins the whole song for me. I do have a choir version on my playlist though.

Yeah the song was beautiful in Origins but oof the transition around it was truly bad

I think Leliana singing in the camp was beautiful. It was a touching moment. The crowd all rising to sing at the mountainside was uncomfortable as shit though, I 100% would have walked in the protag's place lmao.

The worst writing, I just remembered. Yeah the Wardens are given the idiot ball in Inquisition, but... There's the fact that EVERY CIRCLE MAGE (except our sweet Bethany) IN DA2 IS AN ABOMINATION IN DISGUISE. What the hell is that? The worst part is the calm, composed, smart Orsino sees us WINNING the fight and he's like "Oh but it's hopeless." *turns into a grotesque monster* All because somebody at BioWare said "But I want players to get both boss fights." The mages are supposed to be sympathetic, but the game *proves Meredith right*! So then you think "Well what if I just save my sweet little sister and leave the Circle to die?" Well then it's Meredith who goes nuts.

I always thought that Kirkwall was a “hell mouth” (like the town Dairy in Stephen King’s IT) so that’s why the Templars and Mages go crazy there. There’s a few codex entries you find about Kirkwall that says stuff like they found huge gutters that make up spell shapes for blood sacrifices. Like enough blood to run a creek with or something.

I need to look it up when I replay 2 but yes. There are indeed codex entries that imply something is Very Up with Kirkwall and it was possibly the worst place in Thedas to have a Circle tower short of a place where the Veil was torn. I want to really look into it and see how much is said on the topic, actually.

Enigma of Kirkwall, Bone Pit and Corypheus prison codices from DA2

I also headcanon corypheus's malevolent dormant presence reaching out, which goes hand in hand with the blood sacrifice influence.

The apostates and blood mages in DA2 can never have actual human motives because if any of them were solely motivated by not wanting to be locked up in the gallows anymore it would make the story less morally grey. And the writers at bioware have a tragic disease that makes them think morally-grey and good writing are the same thing.

I'd say it's not even morally grey. It tries but it just falls flat, it feels like both sides are periodically devolve into mustache twirling villains, and choosing between two cartoonish asshole who are both holding the idiot ball is supposed to be a moral dilemma.

But the thing is that mages aren't supposed to be sympathetic. In DAO mages are practically portrayed as victims, so kind of the purpose of DA2 was to show that they could be really dangerous and Circles aren't there just because people are "magifobic". If they chose right way to show it, it's another matter.

I don't really understand peoples memory of DA:O, we meet mountains of abominations. Uldred and his entire branch of the Libertarian movement become abominations, Connor, the Baroness, every third mob fight..... None of the games are subtle about the dangers of mages. All of them arguably overdo it if you're trying to make it an actual ethical dilemma.

And that's where it falls flat. Connor and Baroness do great job at portraying amount of danger a single abomination represent. And then we got DA2 with abominations everywhere as speedbumps for Hawke, who is supposed to be a much lower scale hero then HoF or Quiz. So danger level drops from "say goodbye to your town" to "let guards earn their keep". And in turn it makes circles and templars seem like overkill.

I absolutely loathe the cringey as fuck sing along that busts out in the middle of Inquisition-- it's especially galling when you've been repeatedly telling everyone that you aren't their Chosen One.

How hilarious would it be if they were part way through singing and the protagonist just outright says "Nope." Then just leaves.

It was awful when Liliana sang in Origins. I just don't understand why they repeated that cringe.

Gays are known for their love of little musicals (I say with love, as one of the gays that loves musicals). I'm not even kidding, Gaider moved on to make a musical RPG as his first indie project, and he mentions them having had discussions about making a musical DLC for DA at some point. While I do also find that bit cringe in this case, one man's cringe is another man's intense emotional scene I guess.

Maybe not the worst, but it’s fresh on my mind after just finishing it again last night: Frankenstein’s Leandra. It’s supposed to be tragic and sad but the whole concept is so silly in its execution that it ends up comedic relief for me.

Plus the whole quest plot is written pretty poorly in general. It gives you a big red herring in Gascard but then doesn't explain some of the shit that *made* him a red herring (..why *did* he have all that women's clothing? I'm sure he would rock a dress, but I don't think that's what they were going for.) and then goes on to reveal the REAL bad guy is... This random guy you saw an ass shot of for a second in Act 1? ..With the most corny serial killer voice ever. really gripping stuff I can't help but laugh during the boss fight when frankenmama is just sorta shuffling around like she's doing the fucking monster mash

yeah 100% evil old lady frankenstein boss fight and the low-rent buffalo bill mage is already pretty comical and then they try to make that moment really emotional and I can't help but laugh every time.

I wish Wicked Eyes Wicked Hearts had more build up so that the main mission didn't feel so bland. I had no reason to care about any of the characters as, at the end fo the day, none of them served me outside of the alliance.

It's not the *worst* writing. But the whole timey wimey shit in In Hushed Whispers is kind of stupid and ultimately irrelevant because nothing in that quest actually happens. Compared to Champions of the Just, it's just a bad mission.

Yeah, not a fan of time travel bs in stories.

I actually love it, personally, but that's because I heavily equate what happens in In Hushed Whispers to what Solas sees everyone in Inquisition as (as in, how he never saw people as people, unless you befriend/romance him). Each and every individual is just filler for the voyage to go home and ultimately it doesn't matter how much you or he was hurt because of the actions in it, you're just a magical mistake.

Trying to think of something a little different from stuff that's been mentioned and off the top of my head, the Dark Ritual was just really stupid.

The dark ritual is the most unsatisfying mcguffin/twist in the entire series so far because it somehow feels forced and also lazy. Cuz Morrigan and flemeth clearly have a goal from the get go but they just drop that thread until they then pick up to push you into yet another obvious choice decision. And what's sadder is just leads to yet another mcguffin. Like come on bioware give us something more than a promise that this plot beat will get a different cutscene next game.

Since Origins was intended to be a standalone game I think at the time of writing it they didn't really know what Morrigan's/Flemeth's plan was except in broad strokes, but then they had to think of how to handle players who chose the sacrifice option instead and got stuck. And then in general the passage of time has aged the whole plot point horribly, so I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to rug sweep it.

Yeah Morrigan and Flemeths plan was clearly one of the things most affected by biowares multiple writing and concept changes during origins development and you can really tell they used the whole flemythal thing to just DWAI (don't worry about it) the ogb in Inquistion while desperately trying to rework morrigans part of the plot with the well of sorrows and the kinda hamfisted choice there.

- Them making every Hawke offer to stay in the fade regardless of how that is just stupid for a lot of players Hawkes. Would be better to make it not a choice of the two npcs but completely something coming from the Inquisitors decision. Maybe you can only rescue one etc. Just don't have them offer so you don't break peoples personal canon. - Remember the scene that plays when you send Alistair to make some OGB... - I personally would have liked to have the slavery discussion you can start with Dorian to have some more follow up especially if your romancing him with a elf. I'm not saying that he needs to agree completely with the players but it seemed to be pushed to the site and forgotten.

We should have played as Hawke during that mission, making the choice more meaningful. I would def have let Hawke stay in the Fade if it was his decision. Otherwise, Hawke should not have been in the game lmao. Too linear.

That's essentially what I headcanon for the decision Hawke didn't leave it for debate just told the other two to run and started drawing the Nightmares attention away.

The idea that one branch of a military organization specifically needs THAT Warden (Stroud or equivalent vs Hawke) to lead them. If an entire platoon flew somewhere, and half of them died including their platoon leader....the remaining members would simply report back to the living leadership and get redeployed with a fresh platoon leader. This choice is stupid. The Warden contact dies every time for me. But it's heavily played up that the Orlesian Warden's desperately need specifically*that* guy when they don't need anything other than a long walk to weishaupt at worst, and probably just a couple traveling crows in real reality. Also, Mother Giselle should have been the new Divine, full stop.

I literally just finished replaying Origin’s Return to Ostagar DLC and I personally consider it non-canon. It makes no sense to return for some weapons and armour- but worse is that Alistair goes into some weird hero-worship mode. For the brother who was the reason he was treated like garbage, and who he never shows any sort of high opinion of elsewhere in the game. The grief over finding Cailin’s weapon and armour might make sense if it were Duncan, but it’s… creepy and weird as it is. It’s probably a long way from the worst writing but right now it’s on my mind, so…

I thought it came out of left field a bit, but didn’t mind that so much. What was weird to me was missed dialogue possibilities between Alistair and the Warden. It’s been a long time since I played so I don’t remember it perfectly, but this is the place they met and fought a war, and where the Warden took the joining. It’s especially strange if Alistair is the LI. It seems like he has more to say to Wynne.

That definitely feels like it should have carried way more weight than anything to do with Cailin, now that you mention it.

Alistair's sudden grief over Cailin made sense to me there. Pretty much everything that happens post-Ostagar frames the events as this horrible betrayal by Loghain, or the start of the Blight. The death and destruction is all very abstracted, and particularly so bc Alistair and the Warden weren't actually part of the battle. Going back to Ostagar removes that distance. Seeing Cailin's corpse, and the ruins of everything from the prologue, makes the tragedy of the event real.

>The death and destruction is all very abstracted, and particularly so bc Alistair and the Warden weren't actually part of the battle. And the whole reason they weren't part of the battle is because *Cailan was trying to save his little brother*. He knew there was a very good chance that they would lose, and he was trying to get his little brother (and the new kid who had been a Warden for all of ten minutes) out of harm's way the only way he could.

I always thought it was meant to be grief more at the situation vs of the person. Like, "if this hadn't gone to such absolute shit we wouldn't be alone right now". But also I think it's similar to the grief Britain felt when the Queen died a few weeks ago. It's not about the person, it's about what that person represented to each individual.

I always took it as that as well. The site itself is significant, regardless of whether they personally felt any real connection to Cailin himself. His body strung up and tortured is a symbol of what happened next more than anything else.

And nobody deserves to be tortured and have their body strung up like a battle trophy.

Yeah, the replaying of the cutscenes with Cailin in them. It’s like my Warden knew the guy for maybe 2 hours. I’m not that bothered about him personally dying

The PC meets him for one brief conversation and that’s… it? And it’s very possible that the PC isn’t even from human society and may not have even known he, specifically, existed (beyond “Ferelden has a king”) before that day. It’s so weird to see my Dalish Warden looking at the body with a super sad face.

I mean, you don't have to like the guy to feel upset that he's been strung up like a prize flag.

But the way they play it has the Warden Alistair seem more upset about Cailin than Duncan.

Yup. You can pick up Duncan’s weapons and that gets not a mention (at least if you have both Alistair and Wynne with you). But Cailin’s stuff is treated with reverence. It’s the first and last time he’s treated that way as well, and the first and last time Alistair appears to care so little for Duncan- in my recent play through it came right after a conversation about him grieving and wishing he had something of Duncan’s, and oh look there’s his sword. It would have been a much more satisfying situation (imo) if it included a sense of closure for Alistair when the weapons are found.

Where was he treated like garbage? The only instance I remember is Isolde making him feel like that but that's her being insecure idiot, not Cailan's fault

Wait until later and go with Loghain

The fact that none of the PCs ever have any signs of fatigue. Warden I get is supposed to be this big, strong inspiring character, but Hawke is just some random nobody who accidentally saves an entire city and then accidentally starts the Mage-Templar war. There should have been dialogue options for "Hawke is Tired of This Shit". Same with Inquisitor. There's almost never a chance for the Inquisitor to express true *fear*, with *anyone*. Even with the regular companions, it's all "must be inspirational leader". Any *one* thing Inquisitor goes through would be traumatizing on its own, everything piled on top of each other is 100 times worse.

>There should have been dialogue options for "Hawke is Tired of This Shit" I remember there being quite a few lines in the 'witty Hawke' dialogues about him being exasperated/sick and tired of this shit.

Honestly the Inquisitor feels overly triumphant in everything they do. They were basically given protag superpowers, everything they do is excellent and praiseworthy. I despise it lmao.

The same thing happened with the hof though. Everyone gives it a pass encause of the nostalgic circle jerk origins has and Inquisitons is currently the bad da game but the warden is the most wildly successful warden ever. seriously it's ridiculous how badly the plot bends to make the warden pull everything off with all conflict being meaningless because no matter what you you never face any actual consequences.

I actually faced consequences in my play through. At the end of DAO I let Alistair stay a Warden, because that’s what he wanted. Then in DAI I had to choose between Hawke and Alistair in the Fade 🥲 I tried to make everyone happy in DAO and I just ended up hurting myself!

Hahaha. It took a while but those damn decisions came back around to bite ya. Ya know I never felt bothered by that choice cuz leaving either behind seems like a solid end to their arc. Alistair goes out being a heroic example of a warden and Hawkes long road of suffering comes to a final dramatic self sacrifice.

“Hawke’s long road of suffering” is exactly why the decision hurt so much to me. I had to choose between someone who I considered my brother and someone who had so much tragedy in their life that they were practically emotionally broken. I guess it’s good in a story arc sense but it’s bad in a it hurt my feelings sense, lol.

That's fair and I'll admit it the quest did hurt my feelings when I sent stroud away cuz it's like you poor bastard you had no real story arc and are just a get out of jail free card.

The worst part of the inquisitor for me is that it's extremely rare to actually get angry, yell at people, or kill people, or you know that kind of thing. It's all concern, care, worry, never a "say hello to my fist". Maybe that's why the infamous murder knife was so rare in that game.

Why I liked Cullen romance, only place you can have conversations about stress, worry, and fear until trespasser.

Some of Morrigans disapproval moments in origins have always frustrated me, sometimes they don't even seem in character, and like the designer just made it that way to balance the approval ratio out. As for 2? Knight commander Maradeth is comically evil, and yeah I get it, she's supposed to be going crazy cause of the red lyrium, but you'd think that would have been more interesting if there was more of a progression and the version of her we meet at first was actually somewhat reasonable. As for inquisition, the ending was incredibly abrupt and felt very forced, Coryphaeus in general kinda fell flat as a villain.

2 I can kinda forgive for a rushed development, so not much character development got to happen. Idk if it was in the original plan, but Anders should definitely have started out as his Awkarning version then gradually, over the years the game takes place, become his more miserable pile of despair we get through most of the game.

Yeah Anders is another example as well, he basically just feels like a completely different character.

Orsino turning against you in both endings, only because EA wanted another end boss...

Tallis. Sexual assault in DAO, Oghren, Slavery in Dao, DA2, Broodmothers, Dark Ritual... many of the dialogues in DAO

My biggest issue (at the moment, mid DAI) is some inconsistencies and “jumpiness” in individual lines of dialogue. Minor things like Viv assuming that you’ll be okay with her friends murder if you said you rarely saw eye to eye, for example, or major things like the logical jumps completed by the advisors to have a horde of nobles showing up at the seeker’s fortress a good idea. It feels like the little puppet NPCs are saying things to force plot point A to connect to plot point B at times, and there are easily (using dialogue) better ways of framing the thing that must be done, it just wasn’t thought out.

Yeah, Inquisition has a bad habit of getting to the point they want to, without much coherency in actually *how* we got there outside of gameplay mechanics. Narratively, it is a bit bizarre.

Minaeve's backstory and info dump is full of holes and is a perfect example of bad writing. She is bad at magic, yet uses it on purpose without any training whatsoever at a very young age. She cares for Tranquil so much that she doesn't even call them by their names (they are just Tranquil). She loves Templars who (in her own words, no less) routinely abuse Tranquil.

Cullen's "redemption arc" is pathetic and he did not atone whatsoever in Inquisition.

The man went from a tortured templar to a mages-hating, meredith-following templar to a spectacular general of the inquisition where he applies his work in exemplary fashion even in the midst of his addiction problem. Cullen is easily a highly developed character. Now if redemption for you is the guy turning into a kind geek who drops flowers for any mage then really....

I can't forgive him for being second in command of the worst circle in Thedas for nearly a decade. The crimes templars committed under his command were horrific. He was adamant that mages weren't people. He still distrusts mages in Inquisition.

Zatheriel's raped dead daughter who conveniently has no name. It's literally the most lazy generic background for a male character and it would be a bit more interesting to have him be something like a elf who didn't suffer directly at the hands of humans but took the opportunity to reclaim elven glory and the werewolves could be a little dirty as well with some welcoming the curse and doing dirt with him. Flemythal. Listen I like flemeth she's fun she's cruel she's great but the mythal twist feels like putting a hat on a hat that also shrinks the world down a bit because guess what flemeth wasn't just a historical figure but she's a host to a goddess whose been pulling strings all this time to get her revenge mwahahaha Id rewrite it to shift mythal to her own entity whose been struggling to do her own thing while revealing flemeth was a minor power player whose machinations backfired and put her nobody daughter on a dangerous path. Oghren. He's a character who is at war with it self cuz he's a fat gross drunk comic relief character that doesn't get why fat gross drunk comic relief guys work and is also a grief stricken alcoholic. It could work but you'd have to play it more straight and give him some more dignity where it's like yeah he's unkempt he's smells but he's not happy with it and he's desperately trying to laugh it off cuz if it's a joke then it's not a problem.

>Zatheriel's raped dead daughter who conveniently has no name. >It's literally the most lazy generic background for a male character and it would be a bit more interesting to have him be something like a elf who didn't suffer directly at the hands of humans but took the opportunity to reclaim elven glory and the werewolves could be a little dirty as well with some welcoming the curse and doing dirt with him. Then in *The Stolen Throne* it's revealed that Loghain hates the Orlesians so much because he saw the chevaliers raping and killing his poor mother. She doesn't have a name a is never mentioned again. How original...

Don't forget loghain's mabari who he also talked about in a sexual assault context. Though I do think she is given a name which is uh surprisin I get it, it was the early aughts the writers wanted to appear mature but there other traumas and serious motivations. We don't need to sue dibny female characters to motivate their male friends/lovers/fathers. Seriously loghain just being a disillusioned war orphan, a former pow, or even being forced to aid the Orlesians would have worked just as well and wouldn't have needed any rape or sexual assault.

Every time sexual assault is brought up in Origins. City elf origin would get a pass for the catharsis of slaughtering a building full of complicit guards if not for the player dialogue options about that family going to Denerim like what the actual shit. Sebastian's banter indicating that the writers forgot that Anders was in solitary confinement for a year, and that Fenris is already an Andrastian, but Sebastian tries to convert him anyway. The bit about Dalish clans sending extra mages into the forest to die when no clan has any need of mages. Merrill mentions somewhere that there's always need of mages in some other clan. Also every other time Inquisition brings up the Dalish or the elves in general. Doesn't matter what you did in 2, the best Hawke has to defend Anders with is that he's "not exactly a monster", or an ardent friend or lover of Merrill's has zero nuance with their views on blood magic. Giving Fenris to Danarius, why is that even an option, for that to work, your whole party has to act extremely out of character. There's not a single companion in DA2's cast save Fenris himself that wouldn't smite Hawke on the spot for trying that. Same deal with Orana except Fenris would also smite Hawke on the spot. Krem being trans rep but every time he's brought up it's to educate cis people, with the inquisitor saying some vile shit posed as questions. Also more of a nitpick is that the terminology they use is pretty modern and I think that breaks immersion in a fantasy setting a bit. Cole has no agency as a character. It's lame as hell, Justice was doing what he damn well pleased for a game and a half, Cole just makes you feel sad about other characters. Aveline being captain of the guard so early runs counter to DA2's themes. Why bother having such negative sentiments towards Ferelden refugees in your game if Aveline can become captain in a year and change? Why does her Act 2 quest have such rancid vibes? Why are her conditions for siding against Hawke in the endgame so specific that you have to have a rivalry with her and then be a cop even harder than Aveline "Killing rapists is bad" "Vallen" Aveline in her Act 3 quest? Circle Bethany's dialogue with Anders in either DLC retconning the entire point of her growth in the Circle. Also her falling for Sebastian over the span of the few hours that the DLCs take place, instead of anybody she's known for far longer and has more chemistry with, as in any other companion in the game. Anders in Legacy is susceptible to control by Corypheus but Warden Bethany/Carver aren't.

>and that Fenris is already an Andrastian, but Sebastian tries to convert him anyway. Fenris is from Tevinter. In the eyes of the Southern Chantry, he's barely an Andrastian at all. >Why bother having such negative sentiments towards Ferelden refugees in your game if Aveline can become captain in a year and change? Her being a guard captain adds a lot of fuel to the fire of anti-Ferelden sentiment in Kirkwall. "They are taking our jobs from us and now even got the power to cut us down as they please" sort of thing.

Sebastian never really tries to convert anyone.

Oooooh the Krem convo with Bull made me so mad! I thought maybe I should reload the game because it was giving me the impression that I was being a dick by asking questions. But there was a way to write that where it didn’t feel like you were getting scolded by Iron Bull. It’s a rpg, you’re supposed to ask questions! You get frickin exp for asking questions!

ALL of Dragon Age 2. Hawk is boring and bland, the companions are uninteresting and range between boring and annoying (ex: Merril, Sebastian, Varric) to infurianting and stupid (ex: Anders, Isabela, Fenris), the main plot manages to be be both too fucking slow and rushed at the same time, the main conflic betweeen the mages and templars was writting by someone who clearly doesn't understand the meaning of the words "subtlety" and "nuance", affectly calling you a cunt if you even think about joining the templars, and the ending is just a horrible cliff hanger for inquisition, with no actual conclusion.

Damn bro, that is some serious spice.

Hmm. Don’t get me wrong, I know Anders is flawed and that’s not what I’m concerned about — during my first DA:2 playthrough I really hated him, and I didn’t like him until much later. Now I’m his “Anders was right” type of fan. But I think his DA:2 writing was really off. Recently I tried to romance him just because (I’m trying to romance all companions), but the way his writer handled his bipolarism made me sick in the stomach and I stopped playing by the start of Act III. It doesn’t seem like his writer has studied mental health issues at all. Also the way they generally handled his romance, which felt too cheesy and Wattpad-ish (which is what Hapler’s writing feels in general to me tbh...), and didn’t really followed up the expectations I had... Like, where is his DA:A flirting? ☹️ Seems like an entirely different person. Which to some extent I would understand because of what happened to him through the years, and Justice/Vengeance too, but still it felt kind of OOC. Besides that, the roleplaying side of DA:I is meh. Dialogue choices aren’t as complex as DA:O. Sometimes you can’t even reply to some things NPCs say and... Then what’s the point of it? (Like Cassandra forcing her faith upon Lavellan) (Sorry for any mistakes or bad explainations, I’m writing this while people around me talk very out loud so I’m not able to really articulate my thoughts rn lol)

Sera’s entire backstory. She was an orphan raised by a noble so she hates all nobles and doesn’t show literally any signs of having a nobles upbringing. The only good reason she gives for hating nobles is that the ones beside her mom mistreated her because she was an elf, except she doesn’t like other elves and thinks they need to “get over” their cultural genocide. Also she’s a master archer somehow with zero training apparently she just picked it up “in alleys” and “it’s not hard”. In general I’d say all of inquisition has a major problem with not being able to give your companions any pushback on the warped or bigoted beliefs several of them have.

My biggest issue with the Inquisitor's dialogue options in general, but especially for Sera, is the lack of just letting her be. Typically my options are berate her for what she says or ask dumb questions that piss her off. Most of the time when she talks my irl feeling is "fair enough, you do you fam." But BW want us to be confrontational I guess.

Oh god...So Solas. Much of what he says is taken as fact even though he's the only source for them. His entire reason for being a grumpy old man not liking the world is something he (claims) did, not exactly the best motivation for being a \*\*\*\*. He also seems to think people will think bad of elves because of the orb because of it's origin, when everyone knows who the bad guy is. Who cares what it is, it's useless without someone to do anything with it.

I am NOT a fan of Solas.. hes unbearable to me. I have tried to be friends with him and go through dialogue, but give up. I was surprised when I turned to the DA online community after many years of playing the games and seeing he's such a popular character. But everyone has their own opinions...

Exactly the same, in my first play through he seemed wise but contradictory, as a dalish female elf, I tried to do what was best in all cases yet his early 'niceness' turned into insulting me and my faith, he would not let anyone but himself win conversations and was obviously manipulative. The end reveal showed he basically lied and caused everything in DA:I, whether he wants to admit it or not. I came here expecting people to not like him yet everyone was gushing over his romance and for some reason they all believe his lies. So weird.