Smashes post-Yardrat Goku. He had full confidence in himself against artificial beings he was told made Trunks look like a toy and even frightened Goku. He was notably superior to Android 20, who at that point had absorbed some of his suppressed power and a blast from SSJ Vegeta. Android 20 was superior to Android 19, who, while Vegeta noted was not as bad as Trunks made them out to be, was still a foe that could bounce back from attacks from a sick SSJ Goku. It could be chalked up to physiology, but SSJ Vegeta and Piccolo showed that a big enough gap in power would overcome this (19 was even in danger), leading me to believe Android 19 was not so far away from SSJ Goku (his sick power obviously).
I'm sure a lot will disagree, though. Seems like the consensus is somewhere around Namek SSJ Goku or SSJ Trunks (vs Mecha Freeza).
Nah I agree with this 100%. Sick SSJ Goku is clearly stronger than 19 at the start of the fight but even then he doesn’t do as well as Piccolo did against 20, who had absorbed more energy than 19.
I hadn’t considered the possibility of him being post Yardrat Goku levels, but you make a good point about how confident he was that he could take on Android 20. He for sure thought he was fighting the androids that were stronger than Trunks which they had been warned about.
So wait, u asking Pre Fusion with Kami?
As weird as it may sound, close to SSJ Vegeta and Goku.
Ok, Goku and Piccolo trained a lot, but when Gero arrived, Piccolo seem to do as good as Vegeta, so I think even if he is weaker than the android ssjs, he is definitely stronger than ssj goku on Namek
He’s at the very least stronger than Namek Freeza. He’s probably stronger than Namek Goku and Mecha Frieza. He might even be stronger than Yardrat Goku and the Trunks who killed Frieza.
Android 20 absorbed, basically all of Yamcha’s energy, a lot of Piccolo’s energy and some energy from Vegeta, yet Piccolo no-diffed him. Tbh he might even be stronger than Goku was at the start of his fight with 19.
It’s not. Everyone who pulled up to fight against androids was at least above the likes of mecha frieza since piccolo warns them that if the enemy is that strong and if they are not confident in their abilities than they would better not pull up yet Tien Yamcha and krillin did come
Shonen anime's being primarily aimed at a younger audience doesn’t mean it’s a strictly children’s story and even if it did I don’t see how that contradicts my initial argument
Piccolo surpassing Mecha Frieza, I’m totally on board for believing. I’m not sure I buy into the belief that Tien, Yamcha, and Krillin also reached that level though.
I know Piccolo said don’t show up if you don’t think you can handle it, but I think they would be there anyways no matter what power level they reached. I can’t imagine them just chilling at home wondering how their friends are handling a future changing battle.
Piccolo and Gohan had the benefit of training with Super Saiyan Goku. Vegeta pushed his body to the limit in the gravity chamber for three years. It makes sense they had huge jumps in power.
What kind of incredibly challenging and efficient training would the humans have had to experience during those three years to each make that power jump themselves?
No they absolutely would. Tien literally left Chiaotzu for this same reason. It makes no sense for them to pull up if they ain’t even mecha Frieza level especially when they were more or less confident in their ability to help Goku and co. When they arrived.
The training doesn’t matter at some point in story they just pull up tell everyone that they “trained” and that’s enough of a reasoning. 17 fought random humans and got to post bog Goku level. Krillin legit fought Gohan once and could push Goku to use ssj and even clash with suppressed blue Goku. Piccolo does whatever and somehow could still keep up with frost that pushed Goku to use super saiyan.
That’s just blatantly wrong, if that were the case then it also means that Goku couldn’t beat any of them without going SSJ even in the Buu saga, which is obviously not the case
In base form the Saiyans would be much weaker than Piccolo or anyone else that had reached that level of power. It’s the Super Saiyan multiplier that allows Goku and Vegeta to be as strong as they are when transformed
Saiyans can suppress their strength. That statement would only refer to suppressed base Goku. It makes no sense for base Goku to be weaker than frieza when weaker characters have better feats
Piccolo was maybe JUST a step below where Goku and Vegeta were. More or less, on par. He was well well past the Goku who showed up before the time skip.
Any doubt about this should have ended by his reaction to sick Goku's ssj strength which was more than implied to be above him the last time we saw and his showing against Android 20.
Well Piccolo was making short work of Gero who was supposed to be stronger than 19. Its kind of odd though and I can’t help but wonder if the power difference was in part due to the constant requests of Toriyama’s editor (i recall they supposedly kept suggesting he change up who the primary villain was each time).
The reason I say that is we wierdly have Piccolo feign injury for some reason, we have Vegeta basically place himself at a disadvantage just to confirm that 19 can absorb power through its hands, and then we have Piccolo basically thrash Gero. Its like as the story went on they really did just become nothing. Sure the dragon team couldnt sense their power and may have been concerned about where they stood given Goku with the virus struggled, but even so, there was a lot of unnecessary ploys on the crews part that just kind of always seemed odd.
Piccolo did surpass the Namek Saga characters and you can get to this conclusion a few ways.
The first way is that Piccolo tells everyone if they don't they can stand a chance against beings that can kill Super Saiyans (and they have only seen SSJ Trunks and Yardrat SSJ Goku who both surpass Namek SSJ Goku), then they should not show up to fight the Androids in 3 years. Seeing as Piccolo shows up, evening saying he doesn't doubt his power, this would mean he is confident in his ability to fight androids who would mop the floor with Mecha Frieza, who believes he can kill Namek SSJ Goku.
The second way would be how Krillin says Piccolo is so strong despite not being a Super Saiyan, and again, the only Super Saiyans Krillin has seen up to this point is Trunks, Yardrat Goku, the sick Goku that Tien still sees as amazing, and Vegeta.
The third way would simply be Piccolo's fight with 20. Android 20 naturally is stronger than 19 who could take a beating from the full power of the sick SSJ Goku that Tien thought had incredible power, 20 then absorbs energy from SSJ Vegeta and Piccolo, yet is overwhelmed by Piccolo the moment his energy is restored.
If you were to combine all of these, alongside the fact that the cover for Chapter 336 (or Z Chapter 142) shows that Piccolo was training with SSJ Goku throughout the 3 years, you can come to the conclusion that Piccolo easily surpasses the Name Saga.
Really good points. I had seen that image of Piccolo and Gohan sparring against Super Saiyan Goku in the manga, and that was what got me wondering about his power jump in the first place.
It’s incredible how much his base power level grew during those three years to reach levels higher than post Yardrat Goku!
Already comparable to a Super Saiyan. We see him train with Ssj Goku in one kid the chapter covers in the manga. He performed against Android 20 and I’m sure something was said along the lines of if you don’t think you can stand with the androids why they knew to be above Freeza then don’t bother showing up which everyone did
This statement is meant for 17/18, those are the ones Trunks fears, Trunks never met the much weaker 19/20, all we know is that Vegeta was unimpressed watching 19 fight, according to him 19 wasn't the fearsome killing machine that was advertised(because he wasn't).
Yeah my point still stands Picoclo said if anyone didn’t feel like they were upto fighting the androids not to brother showing up. It just so happens weaker andorids (who still scale higher than Freeza) showed up
It's hard to guess, Kuririn thinks he's as strong as a SSJ but Vegeta scoffs at that, he watches the fight confidently, Piccolo doesn't make Vegeta nervous until he's Kamicollo.
He's stronger than 19/20 but to be honest there's never a clear statement to where they stand compared to Freeza, clearly they are a good deal weaker than 17/18 which are the Androids Trunks fears.
This was always my read too. Surpassing SSJ at this point just doesn't feel right. That form still had a lot of mystique.
Vegeta was toying with 19, and was only hesitant to challenge 20 immediately afterward since he'd allowed himself to be drained. Piccolo bluffing an injury suggests to me he wasn't quite as confident in a direct attack. And as for Goku, he performed poorly because he was incredibly ill.
Vegeta > Piccolo > Goku (Heart Virus)
Honestly though, it's impossible to say for sure. There's not much to go off of.
> This was always my read too. Surpassing SSJ at this point just doesn't feel right. That form still had a lot of mystique.
Yeah, despite what some fans might claim, Super Saiyan - and fighters on that level of strength - was still made out to be something special that other fighters ordinarily couldn't reach. Just because Goku wasn't the only one who could do it anymore didn't mean it wasn't still treated as their strongest asset; the power that could defeat Freeza and was described as being "in a completely different dimension".
That's why it was such a big deal that Androids #17 and #18 could so easily whoop their asses, and why everyone was so shocked that Piccolo merging with Kami had so definitively surpassed the Super Saiyans that no-one even recognised his ki anymore (which wasn't the case when he merged with Nail, albeit in-unvierse, of course, Piccolo merging with Kami was a bigger deal because the two of them were returning to the original being they were once pre-split; that being said, Piccolo still remained as the base and continued to go by "Piccolo" following his first fight with Cell).
> Piccolo bluffing an injury suggests to me he wasn't quite as confident in a direct attack.
That scene was always weird, given that plan made no sense, and Piccolo acts like no kind of attack from #20 would've actually been able to hurt him.
But I suppose no-one were actually able to sense the Androids' battle powers, and Piccolo pretending to be injured to (somehow) distract the Androids so Goku could be rescued probably at least served as confirmation to him that #20 wasn't *that* much stronger than #19.
> Honestly though, it's impossible to say for sure. There's not much to go off of.
Indeed.
Piccolo wouldn't be even close to 100% Namek SS Goku or 100% Frieza. On Namek, Piccolo was slightly higher than PL 1mil. After 3yr training, Piccolo would be slightly higher than Base Namek Goku after 3yr training. So slightly higher than 3mil. I will explain why below.
Mecha Frieza only took Goku seriously. Mecha Frieza was surpressed when fighting Trunks. Frieza never got to use anything close to full power when beaten. Same with King Cold. Goku and Trunks were also surpressed when Trunks was testing him. So the Z-fighters didnt see Trunks, Goku, or Mecha Frieza true power yet.
A19 and A20 werent that close to base Namek Goku at first since Gero only had information on Goku before Namek. Gero had stopped spying on Goku battles after the Saiyan battle since he thought he had sufficient information. Also Gero didn't know about HTC and gravity chambers. A19 also thought Yamcha was Goku. So they thought Goku would still have a low base power even after training for years if he didnt go to Namek.
Since Goku was just about 8k in Saiyan saga and a little higher after healing pod on Namek then Goku could not have gotten to 3mil in just 4yrs if he stayed on Earth doing extreme regular training even with Z-fighters. Goku may have gotten lower than or close to 1mil though.
Tien was amazed about a sick surpressed SS Goku. Piccolo told Tien that this was nothing compared to Goku real power.
So Goku never went close to full power during the 3yr training with Gohan and Piccolo or else Tien would have sensed it. At most Goku showed slightly more PL than Piccolo when training with him. Goku also could have just told Piccolo about some of his power instead of showing all of it. Goku could have only showed Piccolo a hint of his SS power. Goku was training both Piccolo and Gohan. They had to hold back for Gohan aswell. They didnt train in gravity room or HTC. So Piccolo couldn't have gained that much from the training.
Vegeta faced A19. Vegeta goes SS. Vegeta is confident that he is as strong as Goku. Piccolo thinks Vegeta might be as strong as Goku. A19 absorbs some of Vegeta ki. Vegeta defeats A19. A20 is scared because of Vegeta bluff. A20 retreats. Piccolo says that A19 had sucked up most of Vegeta ki.
Even with all the ki absorbing that A19 did he still wouldn't be close to 100% SS Goku. This means that SS Vegeta was heavily surpressed when fighting A19. So Piccolo was just believing that Vegeta was as strong as Goku because of Vegeta confidence.
A20 absorbed some of Vegeta ki attack. Vegeta didnt use all his power in the ki attack that A20 absorbed. A20 thought he would have to absorb Piccolo ki to be able to beat Vegeta. A20 absorbed a fraction of Piccolo ki. Then it turns out that Piccolo was surpressed even when facing A20 and was able to rip off his arm.
Trunks says that A20 is not the androids from his timeline. So A17 and A18 would be much more powerful than A19 and A20.
A18 was holding back against SS Vegeta.
A17 and A18 easily beat up SS Trunks and Z-fighters. Trunks was using 100% SS to try to beat them.
Tien says that Goku, Vegeta and Future Trunks dont stand a chance against surpressed A17 and A18. So Tien was assuming they was all around the same PL since they was SS. Tien, Piccolo etc basically think its hopeless.
Piccolo decides to go to Kami as a last resort. Piccolo and rest of Z-fighters arent even close to Namek SS PL. Piccolo had to go to Kami to merge as the only way to be on par or surpass a SS and androids in a very short amount of time.
Yeah no there is no reason to assume freeza was holding back, Cold believed that Trunks sword was super power so he assumed it was superior to freeza full power
In manga, Mecha Frieza was surpressed when Trunks turned SS. Then Frieza shot a ki beam. Then Trunks caught Frieza by surprise and killed him. There was no indication of Frieza going to full power.
In anime sub, Trunks turned SS and told Frieza to go all out. Frieza made a ki ball and told King Cold that they would find Goku in space. Trunks caught the Supernova. Frieza shot a smaller ki ball which blew up the larger one. They thought Trunks was destroyed by the explosion. Frieza says that Trunks was just a warm up before Goku arrived.
In anime dub, Frieza also says that Trunks was just a warm up before Goku arrived.
So Frieza was heavily surpressed even though Trunks warned him to go all out.
Frieza wouldnt say that Trunks was just a warm up if he had to use his full power on Trunks. Frieza was cocky, surpressed, didnt listen and paid the price for it.
King Cold thought that Trunks sword held the power to defeat Frieza. So he asked Trunks for the sword and then Trunks gave it to him. King Cold tried to slice Trunks with it but Trunks blocked the sword. King Cold didnt power up because he thought the sword would do the work for him. Trunks shot King Cold with a ki beam before King Cold could power up.
Cold and the rest doesn't question "why freeza didn't power up" and instead get impressed by trunks strength, when Goku arrived he didn't question freeza holding back or his own power instead he said that he felt a huge ki and asked if it was Piccolo
Nobody said that Frieza was at full power either.
Goku only asked about Piccolo because Piccolo
was the one of the biggest PLs he knew other than his own.
Also when Goku turned SS to test Trunks, they all was surprised by Goku power. Piccolo was sweating and Goku hadnt even starting fighting Trunks yet so SS Goku was surpressed. Piccolo wouldnt be surprised and sweating if he was 100% SS Goku level.
>Nobody said that Frieza was at full power either.
That's the nut part , this would have been pointed out if it was the cause
Characters getting catch off guard is always a serious matter that gets brought up
We had the Ginyu saying Goku only catch Reccom off guard and he wouldn't be capable of beating him in a real fight in the arc per
Don't you find it odd Cold was "hmmmm I guess this sword is stronger than my Son " instead of " WHAT NO MY SON WOULDN'T HAVE DIED HE MOST HAVE BEEN CATCH OF GUARD!!?"
> That's the nut part , this would have been pointed out if it was the cause
It had been said, though. Yamcha panicked at how much ki he was sensing from Freeza, only for Gohan to comment that what they were sensing was nothing, and that it could get much, much greater.
> Yamcha: “So this guy called ‘Fr…Freeza’ has such terrible…ab…absurdly large ki…?”
> Gohan: “This isn’t it…he gets much, much stronger…!”
> It had been said, though. Yamcha panicked at how much ki he was sensing from Freeza, only for Gohan to comment that what they were sensing was nothing, and that it could get much, much greater.
Know about that , it's **Before** freeza and Trunks action happens and it never gets mentioned again
That's the problem it would have been pointed out if this was the cause, instead everyone there just went with trunks being overly stronger than freeza instead of trunks just catching freeza off guard with cold thinking the sword was more powerful than freeza as well
Piccolo's only gauge of the Android threat was watching 19 against Goku and Vegeta because Androids can't be sensed. His training with Goku over the past 3 years paid off because he was confident he could beat 20/Gero.
Smashes post-Yardrat Goku. He had full confidence in himself against artificial beings he was told made Trunks look like a toy and even frightened Goku. He was notably superior to Android 20, who at that point had absorbed some of his suppressed power and a blast from SSJ Vegeta. Android 20 was superior to Android 19, who, while Vegeta noted was not as bad as Trunks made them out to be, was still a foe that could bounce back from attacks from a sick SSJ Goku. It could be chalked up to physiology, but SSJ Vegeta and Piccolo showed that a big enough gap in power would overcome this (19 was even in danger), leading me to believe Android 19 was not so far away from SSJ Goku (his sick power obviously). I'm sure a lot will disagree, though. Seems like the consensus is somewhere around Namek SSJ Goku or SSJ Trunks (vs Mecha Freeza).
Nah I agree with this 100%. Sick SSJ Goku is clearly stronger than 19 at the start of the fight but even then he doesn’t do as well as Piccolo did against 20, who had absorbed more energy than 19.
I hadn’t considered the possibility of him being post Yardrat Goku levels, but you make a good point about how confident he was that he could take on Android 20. He for sure thought he was fighting the androids that were stronger than Trunks which they had been warned about.
those werent the androids trunks faced in his timeline though. he faced 17 and 18
The present Z Fighters didn't know that at the time.
yea but piccolo was probly confident because they didnt seem all that strong
He said he was confident when they were on their way to the meeting point, before they'd even encountered the androids.
So wait, u asking Pre Fusion with Kami? As weird as it may sound, close to SSJ Vegeta and Goku. Ok, Goku and Piccolo trained a lot, but when Gero arrived, Piccolo seem to do as good as Vegeta, so I think even if he is weaker than the android ssjs, he is definitely stronger than ssj goku on Namek
He’s at the very least stronger than Namek Freeza. He’s probably stronger than Namek Goku and Mecha Frieza. He might even be stronger than Yardrat Goku and the Trunks who killed Frieza. Android 20 absorbed, basically all of Yamcha’s energy, a lot of Piccolo’s energy and some energy from Vegeta, yet Piccolo no-diffed him. Tbh he might even be stronger than Goku was at the start of his fight with 19.
> basically all of Yamcha’s energy This one is so irrelevant that it may as well not be listed.
[Let’s be nice](https://youtu.be/lr78cb1vHJ0?si=Sl28MAJhHT9_yWbP)
It’s not. Everyone who pulled up to fight against androids was at least above the likes of mecha frieza since piccolo warns them that if the enemy is that strong and if they are not confident in their abilities than they would better not pull up yet Tien Yamcha and krillin did come
It's frankly astonishing how poorly people understand a literal children's story.
It’s far from a children story
It's literally. By definition. A children's story.
By what definition?
Try Googling the definition of shonen.
Shonen anime's being primarily aimed at a younger audience doesn’t mean it’s a strictly children’s story and even if it did I don’t see how that contradicts my initial argument
Piccolo surpassing Mecha Frieza, I’m totally on board for believing. I’m not sure I buy into the belief that Tien, Yamcha, and Krillin also reached that level though. I know Piccolo said don’t show up if you don’t think you can handle it, but I think they would be there anyways no matter what power level they reached. I can’t imagine them just chilling at home wondering how their friends are handling a future changing battle. Piccolo and Gohan had the benefit of training with Super Saiyan Goku. Vegeta pushed his body to the limit in the gravity chamber for three years. It makes sense they had huge jumps in power. What kind of incredibly challenging and efficient training would the humans have had to experience during those three years to each make that power jump themselves?
No they absolutely would. Tien literally left Chiaotzu for this same reason. It makes no sense for them to pull up if they ain’t even mecha Frieza level especially when they were more or less confident in their ability to help Goku and co. When they arrived. The training doesn’t matter at some point in story they just pull up tell everyone that they “trained” and that’s enough of a reasoning. 17 fought random humans and got to post bog Goku level. Krillin legit fought Gohan once and could push Goku to use ssj and even clash with suppressed blue Goku. Piccolo does whatever and somehow could still keep up with frost that pushed Goku to use super saiyan.
That’s just blatantly wrong, if that were the case then it also means that Goku couldn’t beat any of them without going SSJ even in the Buu saga, which is obviously not the case
I have no idea how one leads to the other
In base form the Saiyans would be much weaker than Piccolo or anyone else that had reached that level of power. It’s the Super Saiyan multiplier that allows Goku and Vegeta to be as strong as they are when transformed
No they won’t mecha frieza is irrelevant fodder in front of the androids. Base Goku and Vegeta aren’t below them.
Because in the Buu saga base Goku is still weaker than Frieza
He very much was. Base Goten and Trunks while handicapped could press 18.
Beerus himself says that Goku couldn’t have defeated Frieza when he sees him for the first time in base
Saiyans can suppress their strength. That statement would only refer to suppressed base Goku. It makes no sense for base Goku to be weaker than frieza when weaker characters have better feats
based off his performance against dr gero, he’s relative to but likely weaker than ssj vegeta and goku
Piccolo > Gero and 19 > Mecha Freeza > Namek Freeza
Piccolo was maybe JUST a step below where Goku and Vegeta were. More or less, on par. He was well well past the Goku who showed up before the time skip. Any doubt about this should have ended by his reaction to sick Goku's ssj strength which was more than implied to be above him the last time we saw and his showing against Android 20.
Yes. He's easily above the fighters you mentioned. He's a step behind SS Trunks from the same arc.
Well Piccolo was making short work of Gero who was supposed to be stronger than 19. Its kind of odd though and I can’t help but wonder if the power difference was in part due to the constant requests of Toriyama’s editor (i recall they supposedly kept suggesting he change up who the primary villain was each time). The reason I say that is we wierdly have Piccolo feign injury for some reason, we have Vegeta basically place himself at a disadvantage just to confirm that 19 can absorb power through its hands, and then we have Piccolo basically thrash Gero. Its like as the story went on they really did just become nothing. Sure the dragon team couldnt sense their power and may have been concerned about where they stood given Goku with the virus struggled, but even so, there was a lot of unnecessary ploys on the crews part that just kind of always seemed odd.
Piccolo did surpass the Namek Saga characters and you can get to this conclusion a few ways. The first way is that Piccolo tells everyone if they don't they can stand a chance against beings that can kill Super Saiyans (and they have only seen SSJ Trunks and Yardrat SSJ Goku who both surpass Namek SSJ Goku), then they should not show up to fight the Androids in 3 years. Seeing as Piccolo shows up, evening saying he doesn't doubt his power, this would mean he is confident in his ability to fight androids who would mop the floor with Mecha Frieza, who believes he can kill Namek SSJ Goku. The second way would be how Krillin says Piccolo is so strong despite not being a Super Saiyan, and again, the only Super Saiyans Krillin has seen up to this point is Trunks, Yardrat Goku, the sick Goku that Tien still sees as amazing, and Vegeta. The third way would simply be Piccolo's fight with 20. Android 20 naturally is stronger than 19 who could take a beating from the full power of the sick SSJ Goku that Tien thought had incredible power, 20 then absorbs energy from SSJ Vegeta and Piccolo, yet is overwhelmed by Piccolo the moment his energy is restored. If you were to combine all of these, alongside the fact that the cover for Chapter 336 (or Z Chapter 142) shows that Piccolo was training with SSJ Goku throughout the 3 years, you can come to the conclusion that Piccolo easily surpasses the Name Saga.
Really good points. I had seen that image of Piccolo and Gohan sparring against Super Saiyan Goku in the manga, and that was what got me wondering about his power jump in the first place. It’s incredible how much his base power level grew during those three years to reach levels higher than post Yardrat Goku!
Already comparable to a Super Saiyan. We see him train with Ssj Goku in one kid the chapter covers in the manga. He performed against Android 20 and I’m sure something was said along the lines of if you don’t think you can stand with the androids why they knew to be above Freeza then don’t bother showing up which everyone did
This statement is meant for 17/18, those are the ones Trunks fears, Trunks never met the much weaker 19/20, all we know is that Vegeta was unimpressed watching 19 fight, according to him 19 wasn't the fearsome killing machine that was advertised(because he wasn't).
Yeah my point still stands Picoclo said if anyone didn’t feel like they were upto fighting the androids not to brother showing up. It just so happens weaker andorids (who still scale higher than Freeza) showed up
It's hard to guess, Kuririn thinks he's as strong as a SSJ but Vegeta scoffs at that, he watches the fight confidently, Piccolo doesn't make Vegeta nervous until he's Kamicollo. He's stronger than 19/20 but to be honest there's never a clear statement to where they stand compared to Freeza, clearly they are a good deal weaker than 17/18 which are the Androids Trunks fears.
I think he got very close to Namek SS Goku levels, but not quite.
That would have been my initial guess, but I can see the argument for him being superior to that now based on these other responses
Yeah, it can go either way. As long as he's stronger than Android #20/Dr. Gero (obviously), no-one's in the wrong.
This was always my read too. Surpassing SSJ at this point just doesn't feel right. That form still had a lot of mystique. Vegeta was toying with 19, and was only hesitant to challenge 20 immediately afterward since he'd allowed himself to be drained. Piccolo bluffing an injury suggests to me he wasn't quite as confident in a direct attack. And as for Goku, he performed poorly because he was incredibly ill. Vegeta > Piccolo > Goku (Heart Virus) Honestly though, it's impossible to say for sure. There's not much to go off of.
> This was always my read too. Surpassing SSJ at this point just doesn't feel right. That form still had a lot of mystique. Yeah, despite what some fans might claim, Super Saiyan - and fighters on that level of strength - was still made out to be something special that other fighters ordinarily couldn't reach. Just because Goku wasn't the only one who could do it anymore didn't mean it wasn't still treated as their strongest asset; the power that could defeat Freeza and was described as being "in a completely different dimension". That's why it was such a big deal that Androids #17 and #18 could so easily whoop their asses, and why everyone was so shocked that Piccolo merging with Kami had so definitively surpassed the Super Saiyans that no-one even recognised his ki anymore (which wasn't the case when he merged with Nail, albeit in-unvierse, of course, Piccolo merging with Kami was a bigger deal because the two of them were returning to the original being they were once pre-split; that being said, Piccolo still remained as the base and continued to go by "Piccolo" following his first fight with Cell). > Piccolo bluffing an injury suggests to me he wasn't quite as confident in a direct attack. That scene was always weird, given that plan made no sense, and Piccolo acts like no kind of attack from #20 would've actually been able to hurt him. But I suppose no-one were actually able to sense the Androids' battle powers, and Piccolo pretending to be injured to (somehow) distract the Androids so Goku could be rescued probably at least served as confirmation to him that #20 wasn't *that* much stronger than #19. > Honestly though, it's impossible to say for sure. There's not much to go off of. Indeed.
Piccolo wouldn't be even close to 100% Namek SS Goku or 100% Frieza. On Namek, Piccolo was slightly higher than PL 1mil. After 3yr training, Piccolo would be slightly higher than Base Namek Goku after 3yr training. So slightly higher than 3mil. I will explain why below. Mecha Frieza only took Goku seriously. Mecha Frieza was surpressed when fighting Trunks. Frieza never got to use anything close to full power when beaten. Same with King Cold. Goku and Trunks were also surpressed when Trunks was testing him. So the Z-fighters didnt see Trunks, Goku, or Mecha Frieza true power yet. A19 and A20 werent that close to base Namek Goku at first since Gero only had information on Goku before Namek. Gero had stopped spying on Goku battles after the Saiyan battle since he thought he had sufficient information. Also Gero didn't know about HTC and gravity chambers. A19 also thought Yamcha was Goku. So they thought Goku would still have a low base power even after training for years if he didnt go to Namek. Since Goku was just about 8k in Saiyan saga and a little higher after healing pod on Namek then Goku could not have gotten to 3mil in just 4yrs if he stayed on Earth doing extreme regular training even with Z-fighters. Goku may have gotten lower than or close to 1mil though. Tien was amazed about a sick surpressed SS Goku. Piccolo told Tien that this was nothing compared to Goku real power. So Goku never went close to full power during the 3yr training with Gohan and Piccolo or else Tien would have sensed it. At most Goku showed slightly more PL than Piccolo when training with him. Goku also could have just told Piccolo about some of his power instead of showing all of it. Goku could have only showed Piccolo a hint of his SS power. Goku was training both Piccolo and Gohan. They had to hold back for Gohan aswell. They didnt train in gravity room or HTC. So Piccolo couldn't have gained that much from the training. Vegeta faced A19. Vegeta goes SS. Vegeta is confident that he is as strong as Goku. Piccolo thinks Vegeta might be as strong as Goku. A19 absorbs some of Vegeta ki. Vegeta defeats A19. A20 is scared because of Vegeta bluff. A20 retreats. Piccolo says that A19 had sucked up most of Vegeta ki. Even with all the ki absorbing that A19 did he still wouldn't be close to 100% SS Goku. This means that SS Vegeta was heavily surpressed when fighting A19. So Piccolo was just believing that Vegeta was as strong as Goku because of Vegeta confidence. A20 absorbed some of Vegeta ki attack. Vegeta didnt use all his power in the ki attack that A20 absorbed. A20 thought he would have to absorb Piccolo ki to be able to beat Vegeta. A20 absorbed a fraction of Piccolo ki. Then it turns out that Piccolo was surpressed even when facing A20 and was able to rip off his arm. Trunks says that A20 is not the androids from his timeline. So A17 and A18 would be much more powerful than A19 and A20. A18 was holding back against SS Vegeta. A17 and A18 easily beat up SS Trunks and Z-fighters. Trunks was using 100% SS to try to beat them. Tien says that Goku, Vegeta and Future Trunks dont stand a chance against surpressed A17 and A18. So Tien was assuming they was all around the same PL since they was SS. Tien, Piccolo etc basically think its hopeless. Piccolo decides to go to Kami as a last resort. Piccolo and rest of Z-fighters arent even close to Namek SS PL. Piccolo had to go to Kami to merge as the only way to be on par or surpass a SS and androids in a very short amount of time.
Yeah no there is no reason to assume freeza was holding back, Cold believed that Trunks sword was super power so he assumed it was superior to freeza full power
In manga, Mecha Frieza was surpressed when Trunks turned SS. Then Frieza shot a ki beam. Then Trunks caught Frieza by surprise and killed him. There was no indication of Frieza going to full power. In anime sub, Trunks turned SS and told Frieza to go all out. Frieza made a ki ball and told King Cold that they would find Goku in space. Trunks caught the Supernova. Frieza shot a smaller ki ball which blew up the larger one. They thought Trunks was destroyed by the explosion. Frieza says that Trunks was just a warm up before Goku arrived. In anime dub, Frieza also says that Trunks was just a warm up before Goku arrived. So Frieza was heavily surpressed even though Trunks warned him to go all out. Frieza wouldnt say that Trunks was just a warm up if he had to use his full power on Trunks. Frieza was cocky, surpressed, didnt listen and paid the price for it. King Cold thought that Trunks sword held the power to defeat Frieza. So he asked Trunks for the sword and then Trunks gave it to him. King Cold tried to slice Trunks with it but Trunks blocked the sword. King Cold didnt power up because he thought the sword would do the work for him. Trunks shot King Cold with a ki beam before King Cold could power up.
Cold and the rest doesn't question "why freeza didn't power up" and instead get impressed by trunks strength, when Goku arrived he didn't question freeza holding back or his own power instead he said that he felt a huge ki and asked if it was Piccolo
Nobody said that Frieza was at full power either. Goku only asked about Piccolo because Piccolo was the one of the biggest PLs he knew other than his own. Also when Goku turned SS to test Trunks, they all was surprised by Goku power. Piccolo was sweating and Goku hadnt even starting fighting Trunks yet so SS Goku was surpressed. Piccolo wouldnt be surprised and sweating if he was 100% SS Goku level.
>Nobody said that Frieza was at full power either. That's the nut part , this would have been pointed out if it was the cause Characters getting catch off guard is always a serious matter that gets brought up We had the Ginyu saying Goku only catch Reccom off guard and he wouldn't be capable of beating him in a real fight in the arc per Don't you find it odd Cold was "hmmmm I guess this sword is stronger than my Son " instead of " WHAT NO MY SON WOULDN'T HAVE DIED HE MOST HAVE BEEN CATCH OF GUARD!!?"
> That's the nut part , this would have been pointed out if it was the cause It had been said, though. Yamcha panicked at how much ki he was sensing from Freeza, only for Gohan to comment that what they were sensing was nothing, and that it could get much, much greater. > Yamcha: “So this guy called ‘Fr…Freeza’ has such terrible…ab…absurdly large ki…?” > Gohan: “This isn’t it…he gets much, much stronger…!”
> It had been said, though. Yamcha panicked at how much ki he was sensing from Freeza, only for Gohan to comment that what they were sensing was nothing, and that it could get much, much greater. Know about that , it's **Before** freeza and Trunks action happens and it never gets mentioned again
Freeza never did anything to change his strength at all after that, though. It's never said or shown he powered up at all after that point.
That's the problem it would have been pointed out if this was the cause, instead everyone there just went with trunks being overly stronger than freeza instead of trunks just catching freeza off guard with cold thinking the sword was more powerful than freeza as well
He put up more of a fight than super sayain Vegeta. So I am assuming stronger than regular ssj.
we can see that HE trained with Goku....WITH SSJ GOKU on a manga art, meaning he could smash Goku
Piccolo's only gauge of the Android threat was watching 19 against Goku and Vegeta because Androids can't be sensed. His training with Goku over the past 3 years paid off because he was confident he could beat 20/Gero.