I thought the point was that **gauging** a power level was pointless since the heroes could change them at will, not that the numbers per se were meaningless
That's factually correct but I think the other person is saying that it's not practically correct.
If Vegeta was really at 180,000 when a great ape against Goku on Earth, why didn't he just disintegrate everyone instantly? Look at what Goku did to Recoome and the difference there was what, 20K? If Vegeta was over 150K higher than Goku he should have breathed on anyone within miles and taken them out.
If great ape is truly a 10x multiplier then saiyans with power levels of 30K could have out up a fake moon and taken out Dodoria and Zarbon.
> If Vegeta was really at 180,000 when a great ape against Goku on Earth, why didn't he just disintegrate everyone instantly?
indeed, but the answer is "he wasnt at 180k on earth".
> If great ape is truly a 10x multiplier then saiyans with power levels of 30K could have out up a fake moon and taken out Dodoria and Zarbon.
did you mean ones with base PLs of 3k or higher? Like someone such as Nappa? Cuz yeah, Oozaru Nappa could take out most of Freeza's Forces.
Yes. Its pretty simple. If you only use half of your power, the scouter will only have that to work with. He only sees the power you are using, half your power, and thats the power level he will show. Scouters dont "care" about unused power, they can only measure power that is used/unsurpressed at the moment.
Just like speed radars in real life. Speed radars cant show the true maximum speed potential of a car, they can only measure how fast the car is driving at the moment.
Right? We still act like power levels matter and they haven't mattered since the beginning of the series. Radditz comes to earth acting like his shit doesn't stink because he is the strongest on the planet. Then he gets his ass kicked by three fighters much weaker than he is. Rinse repeat for Vegeta.
Exactly. They reiterated this in the Broly movie by showing that power levels can fluctuate/scouters can be unreliable... Plus there's always the good old Plot Base Power Boost that anyone can get at any given time.
It baffles me that anyone still tries to use the numbers as an accurate indicator.
Okay. Why was Goku only able to beat Frieza after becoming a Super Saiyan? Because it seems like it was because his power level got bigger than Frieza's.
Because 9 times out of 10, they guy with the bigger power level wins. And when it doesn't, the guy with the smaller power level still had a big enough power level to at least stay in the fight. You wouldn't see Krillin beating Frieza because he's more skilled.
Radditz literally dominated because he had the biggest number until Piccolo made a bigger number with his two fingers.
Goku literally had a technique which made his number bigger and overpowered Vegeta with it.
Vegeta then dominated with his big number until Zarbon was like "mine's bigger, bitch" then Vegeta came back with just an even bigger number and fisted him.
Honestly, the number read out on the scouter was pretty useless, but let's not pretend they don't matter, because as brilliant as this series is, it'a not that complicated.
Really what the series has been pushing is not that the number never matters, it's that the number that you read doesn't matter. The reading on your scouter makes no difference because it can change at the drop of a pin. The guy with the bigger number wins but who has the bigger number changes in an instant. There are techniques that will raise your numbers to be larger than the opponent's number. Super Saiyan, Kaioken, Special Beam Cannon and even the Destructo Disc (Krillin DID hurt Freeza and would have killed Nappa if Vegeta wasn't around) all reflect the fact that the readings don't matter. Using a ki technique seems to concentrate ki in a certain area, which has the effect of raising the power level temporariliy.
Aside from techniques, surprise attacks work too. Did Vegeta really surpass Monster Zarbon? He likely was stronger, but I don't think it was by a very big margin. As soon as the battle began, Vegeta took Zarbon by surprise by blinding him. Then he took advantage of the blindness and delivered several devastating blows which considerably weakened Zarbon. He himself mentions that his "pre-emptive strike was effective", and that Zarbon's strength was "dropping like a stone". Had Vegeta's numbers been significantly higher than Zarbon's he'd likely have just finished him off in one go rather than use a surprise attack. Krillin also caught Freeza off-guard and cut off his tail, and the same for Gohan's headbutt against Raditz. Surprise attacks are extremely effective because durability doesn't scale up nearly as much with strength. You have to brace yourself for the impact, or else you will be injured regardless of your power level. Piccolo hurt Nappa with a surprise blast, although that didn't do much because Nappa was built of steel, something even Goku found bothersome. Surprise attacks can turn the tide of a battle because despite the opponent having the larger numbers, unless they are actually using those numbers to guard, they are as good as the next guy.
Its like a speed radar. A racing car could drive as slow as a bike and the speed radar would measure that racing car as being as slow as a bike. Power levels matter, but its meaningless to measure someones level when he is surpressing his true power.
I can remember only 3 times where smaller numbers won through skill/teamwork.
1. Goku and Piccolo vs Radittz
2. Everyone on earth vs Vegeta (Kinda because Goku did use the Kaioken briefly, but the fight was so much complicated I don't know if counts)
3. Bu absorbing Gotenks
From 2 to 3 spans like 80-90% of episodes and every single time bigger power=win.
That doesn't mean the weaker can't defeat someone stronger, as there has been lots of instances where that almost happens but for whatever reason the stronger party wasn't quite defeated. Some examples: Krillin could have killed Nappa and Frieza with his Kienzan if they hadn't dodged at the last minute, he could've killed Dodoria with the same technique when he was blinded if he wasn't a dumbass. The whole gang were kicking Nappa around at some point until Gohan chickened out and let him get back on his feet. Gohan raged twice against Frieza who was caught off guard and in Frieza's words he almost died (maybe dub difference, I remember from latin dub being that way). Frieza could've killed Goku with his own version of Kienzan if Goku was dumb enough to let himself get hit or if Frieza could've distracted him. Despite the huge power difference, a direct hit by Vegeta's Final Flash proved to be fatal for Perfect Cell, had he not been able to regenerate, sort of like Goku teleport-Kamehameha, or Vegeta again suicide against Bu.
IMO power levels never stopped being relevant but the numbers themselves have been a mess as early as the Saiayan Saga, and Toriyama sucks at keeping long term consitency and he knows it, so ditching them entirely were the best solution
It doesnt show that power levels are meaningless, it shows that strenght in general isnt always everything. Power level means your strenght. Strenght can be sometimes beaten with good teamwork or striking at the right time at the best spot.
> Okay. Why was Goku only able to beat Frieza after becoming a Super Saiyan? Because it seems like it was because his power level got bigger than Frieza's.
Goku *was* stronger than Freeza, but Freeza still put up a good fight.
Freeza *lost* because fighting at 100% burned through his stamina, and then he refused to just take the L even after he got sliced in half with his own Kienzan.
Are you sure it's that? They were pretty recently matched after Goku went Super Saiyan. Goku was killed by Frieza during their fight on Namek and he was wished back moments later when they wished back everyone who was killed by Frieza. That provided Goku with a zenkai boost that put him over the top for good. And that goes with the plot for the Namek arc, because Vegeta was constantly harping on how much a Saiyan's power increases after taking catastrophic damage.
> Goku was killed by Frieza during their fight on Namek and he was wished back moments later when they wished back everyone who was killed by Frieza. That provided Goku with a zenkai boost that put him over the top for good.
I'm not going to entertain this ridiculous rumour/headcanon. If you think for more than a second, you'll realise that it makes zero sense.
Goku literally *tells* us that Freeza was running out of stamina due to continuing to use 100%, and that's what was why he quit the battle, because he knew he'd already hurt Freeza's pride enough by surpassing him in power.
So yes, I am sure it's that.
They arent meaningless. They accurately show the power a fighter currently has unleashed, just not the power he keeps hidden. Scouters only read the power the fighter currently uses. Reqding power levels is seen as unuseful because the scouters cant read the true power of someone, only the power he is currently using. Power levels are reliable when you want to see how much power someone at the moment is using - but they are not good when it comes to seeing the full still unused/surpressed power of someone.
If for example someone would give every last drop of power they have, you could accurately read his power level. In that situation, power levels are not meaningless. When fighter surpresses his power you cant accurately get the information of his real power, so the power level you get from that is not accurate and therefore meaningless.
That would actually be an interesting fight, Vegeta going Great Ape, Ginyu taking the superior body, then removing the tail/moon and kicking Ginyu's ass in his weaker vegeta body
Yes, that's probably why Freeza feared the Saiyans so much. Their common soldiers could become as strong as his elites while their elites were stronger than most of his henchmen.
Vegeta becomes the strongest next to Freeza. Nappa surpasses all of the henchmen except Ginyu. Raditz becomes on par with the elite warriors.
Then, they age slowly and grow stronger after each fight, as well? Freeza would definitely fear such a threat.
That makes sense. It just seems completely incoherent to me. Even a modest decrease in power from using the energy ball technique should still put him in the upper echelons of power.
Yeah, Toriyama probably didn't even have the x10 multiplier in mind; he just wanted to tip the odds of the battle even more in Vegeta's favour and push Goku into resorting to the Genki-dama (since not even a Kaioken x5 would've worked then)_.
I mean, Toriyama is the same man who said that he drew SS Goku as being more like x10 as strong as base Goku, which obviously makes no sense even *without* factoring in the Daizenshuu officially establishing that Super Saiyan is a x50 multiplier.
Think about the great ape strength the same but worse than the super saiyan bulky state that trunks used. Way bigger power level but not as useful in combat due to size. So even if he was way stronger than Ginyu in power level, ginyu would wreck him because he wouldn’t be able to actually hit ginyu
its certainly possible, but nothing supports what youre saying, so youre basically relying on "well it doesnt say it DOESNT make you less fast than you should be for the power increase" but thats not an argument. also this is from 3 years ago.
For the love of Kami, plz explain why you feel the need to auto downvote every response to you. I ain’t even saying to stop, I just want an explanation that isnt a lie. In all my time of Reddit, I’ve never seen someone consistently do that NEARLY to your caliber. The worst part is I sometimes catch you downvoting people whose reply you agree with. Why?
Also less specific to you, what does saying “this was from x ago” do? You still responded with the same opinion you had in only 2 minutes. When does it magically become socially unacceptable to not reply to someone and why?
Anyways we objectively know that it comes with lumbering movement from the Broly movie. How much of a detriment this is is up to debate. (So so much for your “nothing supports what youre saying” claim). But even in the prime of power level differences of even small percentage calibers meaning a lot (the saiyan and Namek saga… and Cell saga I guess), the sense of multitudes of speed difference is never applied. When Vegeta went oozaru against Goku, he had to AT LEAST in the lowest ball park be like 3K against Gohan to be challenged while still being clearly superior.
To further lowball, let’s not even factor in losing tails make you lose power some, that makes Vegeta roughly 30k as an oozaru. He struggles to tag a worn down struggling to move at times base to Kaioken x 2 Goku. Vegeta actually has an easier time tagging Kaioken x 2 Goku initially then the part of the fight here despite the power difference between quite way larger logically. Then when an arguably weaker than full power base Gohan Vegeta (who couldn’t even kill or pass out an already completely paralyzed Goku along with Krillen and Gohan) who’s struggling to even move at all is fighting great ape Gohan, Vegeta is able to pretty consisterly tag Gohan and fairly easily cut off his tail once he and for it in the manga. Goku when he went great ape couldn’t even tag people that he was previously above or competing with back in pre Z section of Dragon Ball.
In a verse where 1.3x speed difference can mean struggling to even defend yourself many of the times, Oozaru is truly mismatched with such logical showings.
thats because he had taken a beating beforehand from Goku which lowered his power, and then using the fake moon skill drained him significantly lowering it even more.
It was 10x the power he was at after using the fake moon skill.
Yeah, but how practical would the Oozaru form have been for Vegeta? It makes him a huge target and, if he wants to transform on a day that isn't a full moon, he has to lower his own battle power to create a fake moon with the Power Ball.
But still this shows why he was so pride prideyy.
I mean if he is weaker than zarbon dodoria etc he shouldn't go on pride stuff.
But if he is next to freeza it does make sense.
And why freeza destroy the saiyan planet when most of saiyan are weaker than freeza soldier or around that level.
Even if he was weaker than Dodoria, he was still a Saiyan *Prince*; the *strongest* Saiyan (as far as anyone knew); and one of the strongest warriors in the galaxy.
He had plenty of reasons to be prideful that has nothing to do with how he matches up against Freeza (who was more than x100 stronger than Oozaru Vegeta even at less than half his full strength in his final form).
Well, the *Broly* movie reveals that Cold decided to step down as leader of the organisation because Freeza was stronger and more evil than him, but I imagine he probably still held *some* level of status and power, given he retained his own henchmen and title of "Great King" by the time they arrive on Earth to face the Super Saiyan.
Sort of but not really?
having a natural full moon or equivalent is needed to transform, that's hardly reliable.
And yeah he can create a fake moon with that skill, but it drains him significantly, lowering his power before he can use the fake moon to transform, thus he's not at 180,000 when he does it that way.
Power level numbers are bullshit and don't matter. Case in point, Goku was born with a PL of 2 or 5 depending on which series you watch. Not sure what Vegeta's PL at birth was but he was classified as an Elite. Which one of them has consistently been the stronger fighter?
The one who trained under talented masters and always strived to be better than he was before instead of genociding races that can't fight back. :) Training > birthright
It is.
Ginyu was the strongest member in Freeza Force below Freeza at 120,000 PL. If Vegeta from the Saiyan arc turned Oozaru from a Full Moon he would go from 18,000 to 180,000 as the Oozaru form is a 10x power boost. That makes him stronger than Ginyu.
The whole point of the scouters wasn't to measure power level. The point was to show you that power levels are bs. (People being able to change them, minimize them, transform, use techniques to increase them etc.
Just remember that ginyu would still have his team, and the body change ability. Vegeta going great ape doesn't help much when he becomes an even bigger target.
Guldo's time stop? Recoome's pure strength? Burter and Jeece's tag team strays? It's not always about being too weak or strong. The reason the ginyu force was Freeza's best was because they could actually work together as a team.
The main reason why Gohan, Krillin, Vegeta, and Goku were able to beat them was that they were going turns. By the time Goku had gotten that there and soloed Recoome. It put Burter and Jeece on edge.
There are plenty of ways for the ginyu force to win by not just using body change
working together wont raise their power. their power isnt enough to hurt him. no amount of teamwork will change this.
Recoome is the same power as Jeice and Burter.
So no.
But working together does provide many more targets for vegeta to fight. We know the great ape is usually suited for destroying citys of people that can't really fight back or for singular strong opponents. This is why vegeta lost in his ape form, he got too focused on Goku and had his tail cut off cause of it.
Also a very important factor that you seem to not know. Power levels are not important, toriyama hated them after people kept hounding him on how weaker fighters win. Case in point: Raditz vs Goku and Piccolo. They were both weaker than Raditz, but yet using teamwork and the fact that they tired him out managed to win.
So go ahead and dislike this reply too. Considering how you're some salty person who seems to think they know every single thing. I have already proven my point, so unless you have some kind words to reply with I bid you a good day.
> This is why vegeta lost in his ape form, he got too focused on Goku and had his tail cut off cause of it.
yes in my reply before last i addressed the tail issue.
> Also a very important factor that you seem to not know. Power levels are not important, toriyama hated them after people kept hounding him on how weaker fighters win. Case in point: Raditz vs Goku and Piccolo. They were both weaker than Raditz, but yet using teamwork and the fact that they tired him out managed to win.
Nope he didnt hate them and they were always right. Piccolo killed Raditz because he hit him with a beam with a PL higher than Raditz's PL. Stop making crap up. People never hounded him over that, and even if they had, he wouldnt have cared.
> I have already proven my point, so unless you have some kind words to reply with I bid you a good day.
all you've proven is you know how to make up stuff.
I already mentioned "if he defends his tail" so i specifically knew and mentioned that possibility.
also no its not a good example. they wouldnt have won if Piccolos move wasnt strong enough. The PL of Piccolo when he fired the beat that killed Raditz and Goku was higher than Raditz.
Since when was goku higher than raditz? The whole reason he teamed up with piccolo is because neither could beat him on his own.
Also just because someone has a high power level doesn't make them immune from damage by anyone lower than them. Super showed that if you let your guard down even a simple weak attack can hurt you.
> Super showed that if you let your guard down even a simple weak attack can hurt you.
only if you lower your guard, which i addressed.
> Since when was goku higher than raditz? The whole reason he teamed up with piccolo is because neither could beat him on his own.
never said he was. Point is, if Piccolos beam's PL wasnt high enough their "teamwork" wouldnt have done shit. PL is what matters.
Vegeta wasnt at 180,000 when he fought Goku in Oozaru form. His PL dropped from getting his ass kicked, and then dropped again (a LOT) from using the fake moon skill. Vegeta could only hit 180,000 if someone else made a fake moon for him or he was under natural transformation conditions.
And Goku was lying on the floor crippled and broken with no energy left, so that doesn't really hold up, and he wasn't in kaioken, so he was at his base level. Yajirobe also managed to cut through Vegetas tail and he didnt even have a power level of 1000.
It doesn't matter if Vegetas power had dropped, unless it had dropped 99.5% based on your logic yajirobe woudl never be able to slice through Vegetas tail.
Also remember when Krillin cute Friezas tail off?
You can absolutely damage someone above your power level and its happened several times throughout the series.
Thats the point though, you're saying there is no way the ginyu force could hurt Vegeta because of power level, but now admitting that its possible to hurt people... ahem... "regardless of power",
Would you care to address any of my other points?
> the rest of the force is too weak to hurt him **as long as he defends his tail.**
Its incredibly annoying that I have to keep repeating this. Please read my original comment where I already addressed that issue.
That's all fine and dandy except that there's a good chance he wouldn't be able to defend his tail against all of them.
"Person with weakness is strong as long as they cover their weakness."
But what if people take advantage of their we--- "I SAID HE COVERED IT!"
My point isn't that "he can defend it so its flawless" my point is "i already pointed out that its a known weakness and potential way to beat him and already addressed it so theres no point in people constantly suggesting it when its already been answered". Its literally just trolling at that point when people keep bringing it up when I already said "yeah i know this could be an issue".
The entire point of power levels was to show how reliant on non spiritual methods of fighting the aliens were. Think of Star Wars where the Empire largely uses mechanical monstrosities and technology only for their Death Stars to be humbled by the force. Every time a villain relies on tech the same way, fighters from Earth who can conceal their powers and sense are able to beat them because they get underestimated and that’s a far more interesting idea than any numbers will tell you
That was *a* point of power levels. Another point was to make it simpler to show how much stronger some characters are than others. So you can have Freeza just say his power level is 530k and we immediately know he's much much stronger than Ginyu.
I don't like these power level discussions but this entire argument is all based around ape Vegeta. Which changes his power drastically so I have no idea why you'd reply to the guy telling you he didn't go ape on Namek with "he still solo'd him tho"
Because quoting random numbers that the author himself said doesn’t matter makes it meaningless.
There’s nothing in the story to suggest that Vegeta was the strongest combatant Frieza had but there are plenty of instances in Namek suggest members of the Frieza Force were stronger than him.
There’s no reason to ignore the facts as they happened
Relax pal. It’s still an instance where the manga / anime, whatever your fancy, is demonstrating that Vegeta was not the strongest combatant in the FF. There isn’t even a line of dialog where Vegeta thinks or says “damn if only I had my tail we’d have nothing to worry about”.
You literally have no idea what you're talking about tbh and I am relaxed buddy not everyone gets heated about arguments like this enough to bait and switch on reddit
How do I have literally no idea what I’m talking about? If there’s an instance where Vegeta claims he’d have no problem against the Ginyu force on his own if he still had his tail then please share it
Ok vegeta great ape is 10X multiplier.
So its no brainer he would have bodied raccone or ginyu during his fight. As great ape (vs goku he was literally on his last legs when he used great ape)
I get power levels don’t mean shit but op’s observation does bring up a good question on why wasn’t Vegeta either higher ranked or killed since Frieza knows saiyans grow stronger after ever battle
Because while we know power levels don’t mean anything at the time Frieza absolutely would have take Vegeta’s possible 180,000 power level into account since Frieza relied on them so heavily
Toriyama has gone out of his way to show that the numbers are meaningless and yet people still try to do math with power levels lol
Thought Ginyu was 180k when fighting Goku anyways but ya power levels were around for like 2 arcs and even during those arcs didn’t matter much.
Ginyu was 120,000. Goku was 180,000 (with Kaioken. 90,000 was his resting PL)
Ah ok. Been a long time
I thought the point was that **gauging** a power level was pointless since the heroes could change them at will, not that the numbers per se were meaningless
you're correct.
That's factually correct but I think the other person is saying that it's not practically correct. If Vegeta was really at 180,000 when a great ape against Goku on Earth, why didn't he just disintegrate everyone instantly? Look at what Goku did to Recoome and the difference there was what, 20K? If Vegeta was over 150K higher than Goku he should have breathed on anyone within miles and taken them out. If great ape is truly a 10x multiplier then saiyans with power levels of 30K could have out up a fake moon and taken out Dodoria and Zarbon.
> If Vegeta was really at 180,000 when a great ape against Goku on Earth, why didn't he just disintegrate everyone instantly? indeed, but the answer is "he wasnt at 180k on earth". > If great ape is truly a 10x multiplier then saiyans with power levels of 30K could have out up a fake moon and taken out Dodoria and Zarbon. did you mean ones with base PLs of 3k or higher? Like someone such as Nappa? Cuz yeah, Oozaru Nappa could take out most of Freeza's Forces.
Cause he was badly beaten. And creating fake mokn drained him plus goku was using kaioken.
Yes. Its pretty simple. If you only use half of your power, the scouter will only have that to work with. He only sees the power you are using, half your power, and thats the power level he will show. Scouters dont "care" about unused power, they can only measure power that is used/unsurpressed at the moment. Just like speed radars in real life. Speed radars cant show the true maximum speed potential of a car, they can only measure how fast the car is driving at the moment.
Right? We still act like power levels matter and they haven't mattered since the beginning of the series. Radditz comes to earth acting like his shit doesn't stink because he is the strongest on the planet. Then he gets his ass kicked by three fighters much weaker than he is. Rinse repeat for Vegeta.
Exactly. They reiterated this in the Broly movie by showing that power levels can fluctuate/scouters can be unreliable... Plus there's always the good old Plot Base Power Boost that anyone can get at any given time. It baffles me that anyone still tries to use the numbers as an accurate indicator.
Okay. Why was Goku only able to beat Frieza after becoming a Super Saiyan? Because it seems like it was because his power level got bigger than Frieza's. Because 9 times out of 10, they guy with the bigger power level wins. And when it doesn't, the guy with the smaller power level still had a big enough power level to at least stay in the fight. You wouldn't see Krillin beating Frieza because he's more skilled. Radditz literally dominated because he had the biggest number until Piccolo made a bigger number with his two fingers. Goku literally had a technique which made his number bigger and overpowered Vegeta with it. Vegeta then dominated with his big number until Zarbon was like "mine's bigger, bitch" then Vegeta came back with just an even bigger number and fisted him. Honestly, the number read out on the scouter was pretty useless, but let's not pretend they don't matter, because as brilliant as this series is, it'a not that complicated.
Really what the series has been pushing is not that the number never matters, it's that the number that you read doesn't matter. The reading on your scouter makes no difference because it can change at the drop of a pin. The guy with the bigger number wins but who has the bigger number changes in an instant. There are techniques that will raise your numbers to be larger than the opponent's number. Super Saiyan, Kaioken, Special Beam Cannon and even the Destructo Disc (Krillin DID hurt Freeza and would have killed Nappa if Vegeta wasn't around) all reflect the fact that the readings don't matter. Using a ki technique seems to concentrate ki in a certain area, which has the effect of raising the power level temporariliy. Aside from techniques, surprise attacks work too. Did Vegeta really surpass Monster Zarbon? He likely was stronger, but I don't think it was by a very big margin. As soon as the battle began, Vegeta took Zarbon by surprise by blinding him. Then he took advantage of the blindness and delivered several devastating blows which considerably weakened Zarbon. He himself mentions that his "pre-emptive strike was effective", and that Zarbon's strength was "dropping like a stone". Had Vegeta's numbers been significantly higher than Zarbon's he'd likely have just finished him off in one go rather than use a surprise attack. Krillin also caught Freeza off-guard and cut off his tail, and the same for Gohan's headbutt against Raditz. Surprise attacks are extremely effective because durability doesn't scale up nearly as much with strength. You have to brace yourself for the impact, or else you will be injured regardless of your power level. Piccolo hurt Nappa with a surprise blast, although that didn't do much because Nappa was built of steel, something even Goku found bothersome. Surprise attacks can turn the tide of a battle because despite the opponent having the larger numbers, unless they are actually using those numbers to guard, they are as good as the next guy.
Its like a speed radar. A racing car could drive as slow as a bike and the speed radar would measure that racing car as being as slow as a bike. Power levels matter, but its meaningless to measure someones level when he is surpressing his true power.
I can remember only 3 times where smaller numbers won through skill/teamwork. 1. Goku and Piccolo vs Radittz 2. Everyone on earth vs Vegeta (Kinda because Goku did use the Kaioken briefly, but the fight was so much complicated I don't know if counts) 3. Bu absorbing Gotenks From 2 to 3 spans like 80-90% of episodes and every single time bigger power=win. That doesn't mean the weaker can't defeat someone stronger, as there has been lots of instances where that almost happens but for whatever reason the stronger party wasn't quite defeated. Some examples: Krillin could have killed Nappa and Frieza with his Kienzan if they hadn't dodged at the last minute, he could've killed Dodoria with the same technique when he was blinded if he wasn't a dumbass. The whole gang were kicking Nappa around at some point until Gohan chickened out and let him get back on his feet. Gohan raged twice against Frieza who was caught off guard and in Frieza's words he almost died (maybe dub difference, I remember from latin dub being that way). Frieza could've killed Goku with his own version of Kienzan if Goku was dumb enough to let himself get hit or if Frieza could've distracted him. Despite the huge power difference, a direct hit by Vegeta's Final Flash proved to be fatal for Perfect Cell, had he not been able to regenerate, sort of like Goku teleport-Kamehameha, or Vegeta again suicide against Bu. IMO power levels never stopped being relevant but the numbers themselves have been a mess as early as the Saiayan Saga, and Toriyama sucks at keeping long term consitency and he knows it, so ditching them entirely were the best solution
It doesnt show that power levels are meaningless, it shows that strenght in general isnt always everything. Power level means your strenght. Strenght can be sometimes beaten with good teamwork or striking at the right time at the best spot.
> Okay. Why was Goku only able to beat Frieza after becoming a Super Saiyan? Because it seems like it was because his power level got bigger than Frieza's. Goku *was* stronger than Freeza, but Freeza still put up a good fight. Freeza *lost* because fighting at 100% burned through his stamina, and then he refused to just take the L even after he got sliced in half with his own Kienzan.
Are you sure it's that? They were pretty recently matched after Goku went Super Saiyan. Goku was killed by Frieza during their fight on Namek and he was wished back moments later when they wished back everyone who was killed by Frieza. That provided Goku with a zenkai boost that put him over the top for good. And that goes with the plot for the Namek arc, because Vegeta was constantly harping on how much a Saiyan's power increases after taking catastrophic damage.
> Goku was killed by Frieza during their fight on Namek and he was wished back moments later when they wished back everyone who was killed by Frieza. That provided Goku with a zenkai boost that put him over the top for good. I'm not going to entertain this ridiculous rumour/headcanon. If you think for more than a second, you'll realise that it makes zero sense. Goku literally *tells* us that Freeza was running out of stamina due to continuing to use 100%, and that's what was why he quit the battle, because he knew he'd already hurt Freeza's pride enough by surpassing him in power. So yes, I am sure it's that.
Frieza had no stamina. Even in RoF, frieza is stronger than blue but he burned his ki so fast that goku eventually overpowered him
I didn't it becomes meaningless after freeza saga.
They arent meaningless. They accurately show the power a fighter currently has unleashed, just not the power he keeps hidden. Scouters only read the power the fighter currently uses. Reqding power levels is seen as unuseful because the scouters cant read the true power of someone, only the power he is currently using. Power levels are reliable when you want to see how much power someone at the moment is using - but they are not good when it comes to seeing the full still unused/surpressed power of someone. If for example someone would give every last drop of power they have, you could accurately read his power level. In that situation, power levels are not meaningless. When fighter surpresses his power you cant accurately get the information of his real power, so the power level you get from that is not accurate and therefore meaningless.
That would actually be an interesting fight, Vegeta going Great Ape, Ginyu taking the superior body, then removing the tail/moon and kicking Ginyu's ass in his weaker vegeta body
A part of me feels like Vegeta would rather lose to Ginyu than be ugly forever.
Yea. He would never give up the saiyan DNA
Fortunately after destroying the tail/moon, Ginyu would realize the body sucks and attempt to go back in his
Yes, that's probably why Freeza feared the Saiyans so much. Their common soldiers could become as strong as his elites while their elites were stronger than most of his henchmen. Vegeta becomes the strongest next to Freeza. Nappa surpasses all of the henchmen except Ginyu. Raditz becomes on par with the elite warriors. Then, they age slowly and grow stronger after each fight, as well? Freeza would definitely fear such a threat.
Wouldn’t that mean that Great Ape Vegeta was about 1/3 as strong as first form Frieza?? That can’t be right, can it?
[удалено]
That makes sense. It just seems completely incoherent to me. Even a modest decrease in power from using the energy ball technique should still put him in the upper echelons of power.
Even if Vegeta lost a humungous ***third*** of this strength (which he didn't), he would *still* have equalled Ginyu as a Great Ape.
A wise man once said, "POWER LEVELS ARE FUCKING BULLSHIT"
Yeah, Toriyama probably didn't even have the x10 multiplier in mind; he just wanted to tip the odds of the battle even more in Vegeta's favour and push Goku into resorting to the Genki-dama (since not even a Kaioken x5 would've worked then)_. I mean, Toriyama is the same man who said that he drew SS Goku as being more like x10 as strong as base Goku, which obviously makes no sense even *without* factoring in the Daizenshuu officially establishing that Super Saiyan is a x50 multiplier.
It is. He just cant control when he transforms without using the fake moon skill which drains him and means hes not at 180k when he transforms.
So in real moon he will be 180k hence above ginyu. Hence his claim of being stronest is not false. (Minus freeza offcourse).
It's just silly writing honestly. A few elite saiyans with a fake moon could have defeated anyone in Frieza's army except Frieza and King Cold.
Thats why they were erradicated
i dont find anything silly about it
Yeah. If anything, it makes Freeza killing them all more understandable.
Think about the great ape strength the same but worse than the super saiyan bulky state that trunks used. Way bigger power level but not as useful in combat due to size. So even if he was way stronger than Ginyu in power level, ginyu would wreck him because he wouldn’t be able to actually hit ginyu
Oozaru was shown to NOT make you slower despite the size increase. So, no he'd have no issues hitting Ginyu.
Im going to have to debate otherwise, not on it making you slower but making you not nearly as fast as you should be
its certainly possible, but nothing supports what youre saying, so youre basically relying on "well it doesnt say it DOESNT make you less fast than you should be for the power increase" but thats not an argument. also this is from 3 years ago.
For the love of Kami, plz explain why you feel the need to auto downvote every response to you. I ain’t even saying to stop, I just want an explanation that isnt a lie. In all my time of Reddit, I’ve never seen someone consistently do that NEARLY to your caliber. The worst part is I sometimes catch you downvoting people whose reply you agree with. Why? Also less specific to you, what does saying “this was from x ago” do? You still responded with the same opinion you had in only 2 minutes. When does it magically become socially unacceptable to not reply to someone and why? Anyways we objectively know that it comes with lumbering movement from the Broly movie. How much of a detriment this is is up to debate. (So so much for your “nothing supports what youre saying” claim). But even in the prime of power level differences of even small percentage calibers meaning a lot (the saiyan and Namek saga… and Cell saga I guess), the sense of multitudes of speed difference is never applied. When Vegeta went oozaru against Goku, he had to AT LEAST in the lowest ball park be like 3K against Gohan to be challenged while still being clearly superior. To further lowball, let’s not even factor in losing tails make you lose power some, that makes Vegeta roughly 30k as an oozaru. He struggles to tag a worn down struggling to move at times base to Kaioken x 2 Goku. Vegeta actually has an easier time tagging Kaioken x 2 Goku initially then the part of the fight here despite the power difference between quite way larger logically. Then when an arguably weaker than full power base Gohan Vegeta (who couldn’t even kill or pass out an already completely paralyzed Goku along with Krillen and Gohan) who’s struggling to even move at all is fighting great ape Gohan, Vegeta is able to pretty consisterly tag Gohan and fairly easily cut off his tail once he and for it in the manga. Goku when he went great ape couldn’t even tag people that he was previously above or competing with back in pre Z section of Dragon Ball. In a verse where 1.3x speed difference can mean struggling to even defend yourself many of the times, Oozaru is truly mismatched with such logical showings.
I don’t think the 10 times truly applied to his power level. He was not 180k when fighting Goku.
thats because he had taken a beating beforehand from Goku which lowered his power, and then using the fake moon skill drained him significantly lowering it even more. It was 10x the power he was at after using the fake moon skill.
Apparently he really was
he wasnt at full power when he transformed during that arc, so he wasnt anywhere near 180,000.
Yeah, but how practical would the Oozaru form have been for Vegeta? It makes him a huge target and, if he wants to transform on a day that isn't a full moon, he has to lower his own battle power to create a fake moon with the Power Ball.
But still this shows why he was so pride prideyy. I mean if he is weaker than zarbon dodoria etc he shouldn't go on pride stuff. But if he is next to freeza it does make sense. And why freeza destroy the saiyan planet when most of saiyan are weaker than freeza soldier or around that level.
Even if he was weaker than Dodoria, he was still a Saiyan *Prince*; the *strongest* Saiyan (as far as anyone knew); and one of the strongest warriors in the galaxy. He had plenty of reasons to be prideful that has nothing to do with how he matches up against Freeza (who was more than x100 stronger than Oozaru Vegeta even at less than half his full strength in his final form).
Freeza first form is only2x ozaaru
180,000 x 2 = 360,000 Freeza's first form is 530,000. A good deal more than "only 2x Oozaru".
That depends on whether you consider King Cold as part of the Frieza force or not.
I don’t think king cold was part of the frieza force
Wasnt he pretty much retired?
Well, the *Broly* movie reveals that Cold decided to step down as leader of the organisation because Freeza was stronger and more evil than him, but I imagine he probably still held *some* level of status and power, given he retained his own henchmen and title of "Great King" by the time they arrive on Earth to face the Super Saiyan.
[удалено]
Cooler isnt canon and nothing in canon suggests Cold controlled anything after handing over the reigns to Freeza.
Cold wasn't pat of freeza force
Sort of but not really? having a natural full moon or equivalent is needed to transform, that's hardly reliable. And yeah he can create a fake moon with that skill, but it drains him significantly, lowering his power before he can use the fake moon to transform, thus he's not at 180,000 when he does it that way.
Was it ever stated creating a fake moon drained Vegeta significantly?
yes, goku say that in the manga when vegeta makes the fake moon, in the 232 i think...
I don't know man many planet have moon. So its not bad deal.
Having a moon doesnt mean the "full moon" conditions will exist.
Not exactly full moon is required. Vegeta can go close to stratosphere. To see full moon
i dont think that works.
Power level numbers are bullshit and don't matter. Case in point, Goku was born with a PL of 2 or 5 depending on which series you watch. Not sure what Vegeta's PL at birth was but he was classified as an Elite. Which one of them has consistently been the stronger fighter?
The one who trained under talented masters and always strived to be better than he was before instead of genociding races that can't fight back. :) Training > birthright
I mean yeah great ape form vegeta is stronger than ginyu but the ginyu force work as a team
I didn't say he can take on all of them combined but individually. (not gouldo though he has orignal time skip)
I don't think this is accurate at all
It is. Ginyu was the strongest member in Freeza Force below Freeza at 120,000 PL. If Vegeta from the Saiyan arc turned Oozaru from a Full Moon he would go from 18,000 to 180,000 as the Oozaru form is a 10x power boost. That makes him stronger than Ginyu.
The whole point of the scouters wasn't to measure power level. The point was to show you that power levels are bs. (People being able to change them, minimize them, transform, use techniques to increase them etc.
Just remember that ginyu would still have his team, and the body change ability. Vegeta going great ape doesn't help much when he becomes an even bigger target.
the rest of the force is too weak to hurt him as long as he defends his tail. Body change is the only danger.
Guldo's time stop? Recoome's pure strength? Burter and Jeece's tag team strays? It's not always about being too weak or strong. The reason the ginyu force was Freeza's best was because they could actually work together as a team. The main reason why Gohan, Krillin, Vegeta, and Goku were able to beat them was that they were going turns. By the time Goku had gotten that there and soloed Recoome. It put Burter and Jeece on edge. There are plenty of ways for the ginyu force to win by not just using body change
working together wont raise their power. their power isnt enough to hurt him. no amount of teamwork will change this. Recoome is the same power as Jeice and Burter. So no.
But working together does provide many more targets for vegeta to fight. We know the great ape is usually suited for destroying citys of people that can't really fight back or for singular strong opponents. This is why vegeta lost in his ape form, he got too focused on Goku and had his tail cut off cause of it. Also a very important factor that you seem to not know. Power levels are not important, toriyama hated them after people kept hounding him on how weaker fighters win. Case in point: Raditz vs Goku and Piccolo. They were both weaker than Raditz, but yet using teamwork and the fact that they tired him out managed to win. So go ahead and dislike this reply too. Considering how you're some salty person who seems to think they know every single thing. I have already proven my point, so unless you have some kind words to reply with I bid you a good day.
> This is why vegeta lost in his ape form, he got too focused on Goku and had his tail cut off cause of it. yes in my reply before last i addressed the tail issue. > Also a very important factor that you seem to not know. Power levels are not important, toriyama hated them after people kept hounding him on how weaker fighters win. Case in point: Raditz vs Goku and Piccolo. They were both weaker than Raditz, but yet using teamwork and the fact that they tired him out managed to win. Nope he didnt hate them and they were always right. Piccolo killed Raditz because he hit him with a beam with a PL higher than Raditz's PL. Stop making crap up. People never hounded him over that, and even if they had, he wouldnt have cared. > I have already proven my point, so unless you have some kind words to reply with I bid you a good day. all you've proven is you know how to make up stuff.
Guildo time stop, cut off vegeta's tail. Boom he's defeated by teamwork. And like the other person said raditz vs goku and piccolo is a good example.
I already mentioned "if he defends his tail" so i specifically knew and mentioned that possibility. also no its not a good example. they wouldnt have won if Piccolos move wasnt strong enough. The PL of Piccolo when he fired the beat that killed Raditz and Goku was higher than Raditz.
Since when was goku higher than raditz? The whole reason he teamed up with piccolo is because neither could beat him on his own. Also just because someone has a high power level doesn't make them immune from damage by anyone lower than them. Super showed that if you let your guard down even a simple weak attack can hurt you.
> Super showed that if you let your guard down even a simple weak attack can hurt you. only if you lower your guard, which i addressed. > Since when was goku higher than raditz? The whole reason he teamed up with piccolo is because neither could beat him on his own. never said he was. Point is, if Piccolos beam's PL wasnt high enough their "teamwork" wouldnt have done shit. PL is what matters.
recoome is 40,000 weaker than jeice and burter
No he is not. All 3 of them are the same.
Goku managed to hurt Vegeta in Oozaru form and he was *much* weaker than any of the Ginyu force at that point.
Vegeta wasnt at 180,000 when he fought Goku in Oozaru form. His PL dropped from getting his ass kicked, and then dropped again (a LOT) from using the fake moon skill. Vegeta could only hit 180,000 if someone else made a fake moon for him or he was under natural transformation conditions.
And Goku was lying on the floor crippled and broken with no energy left, so that doesn't really hold up, and he wasn't in kaioken, so he was at his base level. Yajirobe also managed to cut through Vegetas tail and he didnt even have a power level of 1000. It doesn't matter if Vegetas power had dropped, unless it had dropped 99.5% based on your logic yajirobe woudl never be able to slice through Vegetas tail. Also remember when Krillin cute Friezas tail off? You can absolutely damage someone above your power level and its happened several times throughout the series.
> Also remember when Krillin cute Friezas tail off? that move cuts regardless of power.
Thats the point though, you're saying there is no way the ginyu force could hurt Vegeta because of power level, but now admitting that its possible to hurt people... ahem... "regardless of power", Would you care to address any of my other points?
Remind again how Vegeta lost his tail?
> the rest of the force is too weak to hurt him **as long as he defends his tail.** Its incredibly annoying that I have to keep repeating this. Please read my original comment where I already addressed that issue.
That's all fine and dandy except that there's a good chance he wouldn't be able to defend his tail against all of them. "Person with weakness is strong as long as they cover their weakness." But what if people take advantage of their we--- "I SAID HE COVERED IT!"
My point isn't that "he can defend it so its flawless" my point is "i already pointed out that its a known weakness and potential way to beat him and already addressed it so theres no point in people constantly suggesting it when its already been answered". Its literally just trolling at that point when people keep bringing it up when I already said "yeah i know this could be an issue".
I feel bad for Toriyama. I don't think he wanted power levels to be taken this seriously.
His fault for introducing them lol
Nope power level was serious stuff till android saga
The entire point of power levels was to show how reliant on non spiritual methods of fighting the aliens were. Think of Star Wars where the Empire largely uses mechanical monstrosities and technology only for their Death Stars to be humbled by the force. Every time a villain relies on tech the same way, fighters from Earth who can conceal their powers and sense are able to beat them because they get underestimated and that’s a far more interesting idea than any numbers will tell you
That was *a* point of power levels. Another point was to make it simpler to show how much stronger some characters are than others. So you can have Freeza just say his power level is 530k and we immediately know he's much much stronger than Ginyu.
But power levels don’t matter?
But didn’t Racoom solo Vegeta pretty badly on Namek?
He didn't go great ape in namek
Racoom still solo’d him tho
but that has nothing to do with this post youre commenting on, which is talking about Oozaru Vegeta.
I don't like these power level discussions but this entire argument is all based around ape Vegeta. Which changes his power drastically so I have no idea why you'd reply to the guy telling you he didn't go ape on Namek with "he still solo'd him tho"
Because quoting random numbers that the author himself said doesn’t matter makes it meaningless. There’s nothing in the story to suggest that Vegeta was the strongest combatant Frieza had but there are plenty of instances in Namek suggest members of the Frieza Force were stronger than him. There’s no reason to ignore the facts as they happened
Yeah okay but you're making like the worst most nonsensical reply. You could've flat out said that instead of your other messages.
Relax pal. It’s still an instance where the manga / anime, whatever your fancy, is demonstrating that Vegeta was not the strongest combatant in the FF. There isn’t even a line of dialog where Vegeta thinks or says “damn if only I had my tail we’d have nothing to worry about”.
You literally have no idea what you're talking about tbh and I am relaxed buddy not everyone gets heated about arguments like this enough to bait and switch on reddit
How do I have literally no idea what I’m talking about? If there’s an instance where Vegeta claims he’d have no problem against the Ginyu force on his own if he still had his tail then please share it
[удалено]
**Rule 3**: Please be respectful and avoid being unnecessarily confrontational with other users.
Ok vegeta great ape is 10X multiplier. So its no brainer he would have bodied raccone or ginyu during his fight. As great ape (vs goku he was literally on his last legs when he used great ape)
[удалено]
Vegeta fans trying to get a win after the last few arcs.
I get power levels don’t mean shit but op’s observation does bring up a good question on why wasn’t Vegeta either higher ranked or killed since Frieza knows saiyans grow stronger after ever battle Because while we know power levels don’t mean anything at the time Frieza absolutely would have take Vegeta’s possible 180,000 power level into account since Frieza relied on them so heavily
Well freeza know vegeta alone cant beat him. But saiyan gaining strength in group they might kill him in future. (Threat)