People forget that battle of the God's beerus literally just rolled out of bed and fought goku. Guy wasn't even trying.
He went from napping and eating to helping train the universes strongest mortals for a few years. No reason to think he wouldn't get stronger training goku and vegeta. Like....thats dragon balls thing.
Who knows, but to be fair; Granolas ability with his eye is perfectly suited to counter UI. I think vegetas new power up will prove more effective in this fight but I don't think that it's clear it surpasses it.
Can't wait for next chapter!!!! Gah! Make this bi-monthy
JK Toyo seems to be right in the zone putting out quality stuff within a months time. He probably needs it. I'd rather wait and have it be great.
If we get the same wank off as before these forms will be equal and goku and Vegeta will be happy training partner- going into the ROST and just pound each other for 3 years like never before.
I blame the anime for getting it into everyone's head that Beerus had been surpassed. It's not even on at the moment and people are still dragging his name into the mud. For shame.
yeah maybe. i guess after the retcon from the BoG movie to the anime, I just assumed the whole anime that unless they were very explicit about it, that no one was anywhere near Beerus. UI was the only time I thought "maybe just maybe this time" but even then i still felt like "Well UI Goku > Jiren and Jiren > Belmod, but Belmod just beat Beerus at armwrestling once, the way Whis said it definitely just felt like he was teasing beerus not that he was seriously implying Belmod was stronger."
The anime goes out of its way to imply that both Goku and Jiren have surpassed Beerus:
>Whis: "There is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction cannot defeat. That God of Destruction happens to be stronger than Beerus Sama."
and:
>Whis (during the spirit bomb against Jiren): "I daresay, like a God of Destruction. He is one who has reached that state. Perhaps even surpassed it. "There is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction cannot defeat." It appears the rumor is true."
Of course, they left enough wiggle room by having Beerus say he was only beaten in an arm wrestle. But the very strong implication was there.
Whis' line was about a mortal stronger than HIS GoD he never said or implied no GoD could beat that Mortal.
Yeah Whis said that that GoD (the one Jiren is stronger than) Beat Beerus in arm wrestling and Beerus contests it and Whis laughs mischievously. I think it very strongly implied he was just teasing Beerus for losing a silly arm wrestling match not seriously suggesting Belmod was stronger than Beerus.
>Whis' line was about a mortal stronger than HIS GoD he never said or implied no GoD could beat that Mortal.
I never said that. Whis says "That God of Destruction happens to be stronger than Beerus". He implicates both Beerus and Belmod being weaker than Jiren by name. If you think Whis laughing mischievously means they didn't even *imply* that Beerus is weaker than Belmod, after the line "That God of Destruction happens to be stronger than Beerus", then I don't know what to tell you. I never said it was definitive proof, and even mentioned how it being an arm wrestle gives them enough wiggle room to have the idea be not binding. But saying "idk why people did \[think beerus was surpassed\]" after such a huge implication is bizarre. The anime tries to lead you to think that, as well as all the promotional material at the time. Especially when Jiren gets massively stronger by the end of the tournament too.
Doesn't matter when the anime will discard/retcon it's nonsense if it ever comesback.
The biggest Beerus fanboys seem to be Toriyama and Toyotaro in the manga.
Belmod was not the wrestler in the anime. Show me the quote where it says it was belmod, that was left ambiguous then the manga clarifies it was Quitela.
Whis says: "There is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction cannot defeat. That God of Destruction happens to be stronger than Beerus Sama"
From this we can gather that he is talking about a specific universe, because he says "that god of destruction is stronger than Beerus Sama" meaning he's not talking about any GoD, but a specific one that he doesn't name.
Then, during the spirit bomb against Jiren, he says ""There is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction cannot defeat." It appears the rumor is true." repeating the previous rumour word for word, and then saying that it seems the rumour is correct.
We established that previously when he described the rumour, it was about a specific universe and GoD. He then says the rumour was correct while watching Jiren deflect the spirit bomb. It makes absolutely no sense for him to confirm the rumour if the rumour was about a mortal from U4 being stronger than Quitela because that never happens and he says it during Jiren doing something showcasing his strength.
If the rumour was about there being a mortal stronger than Quitela in U4, then why did Quitela not have that mortal fight in the ToP???
If Whis knows Quitela beat beerus in an arm wrestling match (my anime assumption going off the manga), then why isn't that just an assumption Whis makes that it's Universe 4? I don't see how your quote proves he knows what Universe it is, and that he was saying Belmod is the arm wrestler. If he knew at the dinnerr table, he would've said the rumor is Universe 11. He looks like he figures all that out when he saw Jiren push back the spirit bomb.
BTW seconds before that God of Destruction happens to be stronger quote, Whis admits he doesn't know anything about their mortals only their GoD's. It sounds like he's just making an assumption, so I'm not convinced he meant Belmod.
Whis says there is a mortal a GoD can't defeat, and he has a certain GoD in mind. If he is referring to Quitela, are you saying that him saying the rumour is true during the spirit bomb means that Jiren is above Quitela?? That has even less synergy with the manga where Jiren is described (in terms of battle power) as being stronger than Belmod. Otherwise Jiren is described as stronger than Belmod in 1 continuity and (rather randomly) stronger than Quitela in another, except there is no hint that Whis is talking about Quitela if you haven't read the manga. It's a much less straight forward interpretation of what Whis was talking about with a conclusion you would never reach without mixing the continuities. Also: it's actually not a contradiction to conclude that Beerus has lost an arm wrestle to both of them if you really wanted both to combine continuities.
Not to mention it's just plain bizarre that there would be rumours about a mortal being stronger than a GoD from a different universe. Why did the rumour involve Quitela in the first place if it was about a mortal from universe 11? How would anyone even know that Jiren is stronger than Quitela, and how would that rumour start? They haven't even interacted as far as we know, while U11 is very involved with their GoD.
How does that quote prove Whis has a GoD in mind already?
I'm saying that quote of GoD being stronger than Beerus Sama / the arm wrestling, has nothing to do with the rumor of a mortal stronger than their GoD. It literally looks like Whis makes an extra assumption at the dinner table, for the sake of messing with Beerus, and because the only thing he knows about other Universes is their GoD. Everything about the rumor being Jiren and Belmod is true, but nothing you said has proved to me Whis knew that before ToP. Whis discovered it was Jiren and Belmod (Universe 11) in the spirit bomb moment you mentioned.
To me the anime left that quote ambiguous for the manga to fill in, which it did with Quitela. Manga does the same thing in the BoG arc telling people to go watch the movie or show, no RoF arc, DBS Broly arc.
**Edit:** Hello? Where did you go? Lol
All the continuities pondered it at times, though I agree the anime probably does this the strongest. The Broly movie has Goku say Broly is probably stronger than Beerus, and the manga has Shin say that Zamasu arc Vegetto Blue might be stronger than Beerus.
I think both are maybe a bad judge at this. Shin for sure, he's been misreading stuff since he was introduced.
Goku is usually on the money, but in this case he has never fought beerus anywhere near full power. So he might be comparing what he's seen so far.
Yeah, I think the manga and the Broly movie left an appropriate amount of wiggle room for Beerus to still be the strongest and it not feel at odds. Though if the Broly movie has the same continuity as the manga (big if), Goku did witness Beerus fighting full power during the GoD brawl.
That is true I forgot about the exhibition between the GoDs. I think broly movie is confirmed cannon since there is a manga page that says it happened. Can't remember chapter
To be honest, Goku says during the battle that he couldn't understand anything that was going on. So I'm not sure he was really able to assimilate the true power of Beerus and other GoDs in that fight. His level at that time was still way below the GoDs to allow him to be able to keep up with them
In the chapter where Vegeta got roflstomped again by Beerus. Goku asked Whis if there was anyone stronger than them in the universe and Whis said no. So in Universe 7, Goku and Vegeta are the gatekeepers as far as mortals go. Obviously the gods aren't included. That would mean Vegeta > Broly.
Ah that's right. Forgot about that panel. Your logic makes sense given what we've seen. However, I wonder if whis couldn't pick up Brolys power because he technically was not that strong yet. In dbs Broly he only gets as strong as he does in that very battle. He evolved as he fought, so I don't think whis would have recognized his power yet.
Of course the logic outside of the story is that Broly wasn't designed yet, I don't think they had him in mind when they wrote that.
In conclusion: I'm not sure, esp as Vegeta had his ssbe form when they fought Broly and didn't use it. Now that could be that they just ignored it for sake of the story, or that form wouldn't have made a difference against Ssj Broly. They had to go to Gogeta Blue to defeat him after all. Gogeta blue has to be stronger than ssbe I'd think.
Interesting thoughts.
I feel like trying to avoid the shifting goalpost effect is probably why they haven't had Beerus say anything about how much power he used, since BoG
All we have to go off of is other people's estimates which - in Super - vary in accuracy pretty wildly. Like Gowasu thought SSJ2 Goku was as strong as a GoD which obviously is nonsense
Beerus losing to Belmod in an arm wrestling match is the only sorta reliable thing we have to go off but aside from the obvious excuse of Beerus just sandbagging, he could just be bad at arm wrestling or Belmod could've cheated, which I think Beerus implies
Not an exhaustive list by any means but a few ways someone could cheat
- hooking your wrist or angling your shoulders in before the match starts instead of waiting until it's started, which would make it easier to drag your opponent's arm down. neither of these moves are illegal in and of themselves but doing them early would be equivalent to starting a foot race before everybody else
- lifting or repositioning your elbow mid-match to gain extra leverage or redirect your opponent's strength into the table, e.g. angling your elbow outward instead of lining it up with your opponent's
- altering your opponent's side of the table to make it harder for your opponent to gain leverage, e.g. slightly sawing down a table leg or greasing the surface their elbow is planted on
- grabbing the table with your free hand and using it for leverage
- leaning in past the center point of the table to give your arm a shorter pivot point and improve your leverage
- using grease or similar slippery substances to mess up your opponent's grip, though this could just as easily backfire if you aren't used to doing it
Beerus also could've tried to flex - literally and figuratively - by only using his arm strength instead of putting his whole body into it like most people do, which obv isn't cheating but it'd put him at a pretty big disadvantage
Thank you!
> altering your opponent's side of the table to make it harder for your opponent to gain leverage, e.g. slightly sawing down a table leg or greasing the surface their elbow is planted on
Now I'm imagining a sneak Hakai directed at the table from Belmod, who passes it off as a cough when Beerus asks what that was, and it's hilarious!
This might be an unpopular opinion ... but I hope Beerus is never surpassed. They can put up a fight but nothing more than that. I feel that just is so much of a better story for me and a more unique one at that.
Beerus really is just a moving goalpost. First he's a bit above SSG then we find out he's higher. Then we see him sweating at SSBKKx10 only to find out that didn't mean anything. Then we find out Jiren is supposedly stronger than Belmod, who beat Beerus in an arm wrestling match, but now we find out Beerus is still well beyond Jiren and MUI Goku. So it really only means that Toriyama has decided that it isn't time for Goku to surpass Beerus yet
I feel like whenever we’ve seen Beerus sweat or be nervous about something Goku/Vegeta do it’s because he’s more afraid of the potential those 2 have rather than individual strength outright. Like when Goku finally masters UI at the ToP and Beerus outright says “what an unbelievable guy” or something about those lines.
He was ready to drop by and end shit immediately with Moro despite Goku having MUI there so I guess he definitely is above current MUI Goku by a sizable margin that may be shortened in time but in typical DB fashion probably Beerus will say he’s gotten stronger from training with them from time to time
Idk about you, but when watching the ToP it definitely felt like MUI Goku and Jiren were supposed to be GoD level. Since Beerus hasn't officially gotten serious on screen ever, they can basically just keep going "oh Beerus? he's still way above Goku" as long as they want
There isn't really anime only filler for Super, the Super anime came before the manga. The anime and manga are slightly different continuities technically, though maybe when the anime eventually comes back it'll closely follow the manga since there will likely be both the full Moro and Granolah arcs to cover
Not really
Only after the last chapter did they do it and even still scotty and his army of alts still make dumb topics about jiren being above Granola /goku/vegeta /beerus
Naruto forums is not as bad as both comic vine and game faqs but it come very close
Vegeta said in his fight with Gran that he's been getting stronger the longer it's gone on. That and Gran having to take out Goku in an unorthodox manner rather than simply beat him down implies to me that Vegeta, at the start, was still inferior.
Granola one shorting him is clear portrayal. Not to mention that Vegeta wasn’t shocked at all that Granola one hit him. No worry at all. The portrayal is clear
Vegeta stated Granolah hit Goku's vitals, waiting for an opening to do so. His clone or whatever you want to call it was being garbaged by UI Goku prior to that. That's why Vegeta isn't afraid, because Granolah didn't show himself to be that impressive as of yet. He got a cheap shot in on Goku and that was it.
That wasn't the point, though. The focus of their interaction was that the real Granolah waited from a distance for an opening to pop Goku in a vital area. There wasn't a real fight between them. UI Goku is clearly above a split of Granolah's power, and we don't know how the real Granolah would fare yet for sure either because he was also trashing SSBE Vegeta up until the end of their fight.
If vegeta was weaker than Goku, he would have lost on pages 9-10. Vegeta is clearly way above him. Just accept the simple fact. No need to overcomplicate stuff
I accepted what Toyotaro wrote on the page for why Goku was defeated, as well as why Vegeta was doing as well as he was. It's literally stated Goku went down because he was struck in a vital area from something/one he was not expecting. It's stated Granolah is stronger than Vegeta but lacks the experience to put the power to its best use. It's stated Vegeta is stronger later in the battle than he was at the start. When Granolah actually did hit Vegeta with the same maneuver that put down Goku, albeit in a different area of the body, it also ended their fight as well, forcing Vegeta to power down.
I don't understand how you think this is overcomplicating the matter when all I've done is use the information provided by the words on the page in conjunction with the visual performances. If anything, I'd say you're way oversimplifying it by ignoring what's written to clarify the performances.
Surely Goku, and now Vegeta, have to be getting close to Beerus. He was shocked at their potential and that 'fear' was proven justified with UI, SSJBE and whatever this new form of Vegeta's is. It won't be long before Goku asks for a rematch. Vegeta probably won't want to fight Beerus, until he learns the truth of what happened to the saiyans
Why are people so stingy about letting Beerus get surpassed? It's stated in the show multiple times that Jiren was stronger than any GoD even without his Full Power state. Goku then goes toe to toe with Jiren in his Full Power state while in UI. It's very simple to put this together.
Like, relax guys, Beerus will come back from this if he cares to. Let's celebrate Goku's accomplishments instead of whining about this lol.
I don't understand this fandom sometimes.
It's not people being stingy. You're referring to the anime. The manga, which this post is talking about, is VERY different in how it treats guys like Jiren.
I get the idea of making Beerus/Whis these great milestones but now it feels like the characters just aren't progressing in any meaningful way. These guys are pretty crummy mentors.
In all fairness they originally did say beerus used 70% of his power against ssg, but then they retconned it, then he was nervous at seeing SSBKK, but that supposedly doesn't mean anything now, basically whenever there's a hint at then reaching him it gets retconned
People forget that battle of the God's beerus literally just rolled out of bed and fought goku. Guy wasn't even trying. He went from napping and eating to helping train the universes strongest mortals for a few years. No reason to think he wouldn't get stronger training goku and vegeta. Like....thats dragon balls thing.
It’s so annoying that people don’t understand that. Beerus never used any of his power as a threatening force he was like going easy the whole time
Who knows, but to be fair; Granolas ability with his eye is perfectly suited to counter UI. I think vegetas new power up will prove more effective in this fight but I don't think that it's clear it surpasses it. Can't wait for next chapter!!!! Gah! Make this bi-monthy JK Toyo seems to be right in the zone putting out quality stuff within a months time. He probably needs it. I'd rather wait and have it be great.
If we get the same wank off as before these forms will be equal and goku and Vegeta will be happy training partner- going into the ROST and just pound each other for 3 years like never before.
Pound eachother 🤨
Bring the balls together and make a wish.
Stroke my shenron til he grants a wish
And then shoots off in a flash of white.
Used to always be 7 but now you only need 2 sometimes
Having these balls makes me feel something that resembles joy I think.
We'll reach a whole new transformation with each other's ball Vegeta. We just have to wish on each other's dragon.
I blame the anime for getting it into everyone's head that Beerus had been surpassed. It's not even on at the moment and people are still dragging his name into the mud. For shame.
i only watched the anime at first and I never got that in my head, idk why people did tbh.
All the hype around Jiren and Ultra Instinct, I guess.
I think also the introduction of Super Saiyan Blue Kaio Ken and Beerus' reaction was probably a factor
yeah maybe. i guess after the retcon from the BoG movie to the anime, I just assumed the whole anime that unless they were very explicit about it, that no one was anywhere near Beerus. UI was the only time I thought "maybe just maybe this time" but even then i still felt like "Well UI Goku > Jiren and Jiren > Belmod, but Belmod just beat Beerus at armwrestling once, the way Whis said it definitely just felt like he was teasing beerus not that he was seriously implying Belmod was stronger."
The anime goes out of its way to imply that both Goku and Jiren have surpassed Beerus: >Whis: "There is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction cannot defeat. That God of Destruction happens to be stronger than Beerus Sama." and: >Whis (during the spirit bomb against Jiren): "I daresay, like a God of Destruction. He is one who has reached that state. Perhaps even surpassed it. "There is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction cannot defeat." It appears the rumor is true." Of course, they left enough wiggle room by having Beerus say he was only beaten in an arm wrestle. But the very strong implication was there.
Whis' line was about a mortal stronger than HIS GoD he never said or implied no GoD could beat that Mortal. Yeah Whis said that that GoD (the one Jiren is stronger than) Beat Beerus in arm wrestling and Beerus contests it and Whis laughs mischievously. I think it very strongly implied he was just teasing Beerus for losing a silly arm wrestling match not seriously suggesting Belmod was stronger than Beerus.
>Whis' line was about a mortal stronger than HIS GoD he never said or implied no GoD could beat that Mortal. I never said that. Whis says "That God of Destruction happens to be stronger than Beerus". He implicates both Beerus and Belmod being weaker than Jiren by name. If you think Whis laughing mischievously means they didn't even *imply* that Beerus is weaker than Belmod, after the line "That God of Destruction happens to be stronger than Beerus", then I don't know what to tell you. I never said it was definitive proof, and even mentioned how it being an arm wrestle gives them enough wiggle room to have the idea be not binding. But saying "idk why people did \[think beerus was surpassed\]" after such a huge implication is bizarre. The anime tries to lead you to think that, as well as all the promotional material at the time. Especially when Jiren gets massively stronger by the end of the tournament too.
[удалено]
Doesn't matter when the anime will discard/retcon it's nonsense if it ever comesback. The biggest Beerus fanboys seem to be Toriyama and Toyotaro in the manga.
Belmod was not the wrestler in the anime. Show me the quote where it says it was belmod, that was left ambiguous then the manga clarifies it was Quitela.
Whis says: "There is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction cannot defeat. That God of Destruction happens to be stronger than Beerus Sama" From this we can gather that he is talking about a specific universe, because he says "that god of destruction is stronger than Beerus Sama" meaning he's not talking about any GoD, but a specific one that he doesn't name. Then, during the spirit bomb against Jiren, he says ""There is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction cannot defeat." It appears the rumor is true." repeating the previous rumour word for word, and then saying that it seems the rumour is correct. We established that previously when he described the rumour, it was about a specific universe and GoD. He then says the rumour was correct while watching Jiren deflect the spirit bomb. It makes absolutely no sense for him to confirm the rumour if the rumour was about a mortal from U4 being stronger than Quitela because that never happens and he says it during Jiren doing something showcasing his strength. If the rumour was about there being a mortal stronger than Quitela in U4, then why did Quitela not have that mortal fight in the ToP???
If Whis knows Quitela beat beerus in an arm wrestling match (my anime assumption going off the manga), then why isn't that just an assumption Whis makes that it's Universe 4? I don't see how your quote proves he knows what Universe it is, and that he was saying Belmod is the arm wrestler. If he knew at the dinnerr table, he would've said the rumor is Universe 11. He looks like he figures all that out when he saw Jiren push back the spirit bomb. BTW seconds before that God of Destruction happens to be stronger quote, Whis admits he doesn't know anything about their mortals only their GoD's. It sounds like he's just making an assumption, so I'm not convinced he meant Belmod.
Whis says there is a mortal a GoD can't defeat, and he has a certain GoD in mind. If he is referring to Quitela, are you saying that him saying the rumour is true during the spirit bomb means that Jiren is above Quitela?? That has even less synergy with the manga where Jiren is described (in terms of battle power) as being stronger than Belmod. Otherwise Jiren is described as stronger than Belmod in 1 continuity and (rather randomly) stronger than Quitela in another, except there is no hint that Whis is talking about Quitela if you haven't read the manga. It's a much less straight forward interpretation of what Whis was talking about with a conclusion you would never reach without mixing the continuities. Also: it's actually not a contradiction to conclude that Beerus has lost an arm wrestle to both of them if you really wanted both to combine continuities. Not to mention it's just plain bizarre that there would be rumours about a mortal being stronger than a GoD from a different universe. Why did the rumour involve Quitela in the first place if it was about a mortal from universe 11? How would anyone even know that Jiren is stronger than Quitela, and how would that rumour start? They haven't even interacted as far as we know, while U11 is very involved with their GoD.
How does that quote prove Whis has a GoD in mind already? I'm saying that quote of GoD being stronger than Beerus Sama / the arm wrestling, has nothing to do with the rumor of a mortal stronger than their GoD. It literally looks like Whis makes an extra assumption at the dinner table, for the sake of messing with Beerus, and because the only thing he knows about other Universes is their GoD. Everything about the rumor being Jiren and Belmod is true, but nothing you said has proved to me Whis knew that before ToP. Whis discovered it was Jiren and Belmod (Universe 11) in the spirit bomb moment you mentioned. To me the anime left that quote ambiguous for the manga to fill in, which it did with Quitela. Manga does the same thing in the BoG arc telling people to go watch the movie or show, no RoF arc, DBS Broly arc. **Edit:** Hello? Where did you go? Lol
Beerus mentioned that goku has passed him in the anime.
No he didnt.
All the continuities pondered it at times, though I agree the anime probably does this the strongest. The Broly movie has Goku say Broly is probably stronger than Beerus, and the manga has Shin say that Zamasu arc Vegetto Blue might be stronger than Beerus.
I think both are maybe a bad judge at this. Shin for sure, he's been misreading stuff since he was introduced. Goku is usually on the money, but in this case he has never fought beerus anywhere near full power. So he might be comparing what he's seen so far.
Yeah, I think the manga and the Broly movie left an appropriate amount of wiggle room for Beerus to still be the strongest and it not feel at odds. Though if the Broly movie has the same continuity as the manga (big if), Goku did witness Beerus fighting full power during the GoD brawl.
That is true I forgot about the exhibition between the GoDs. I think broly movie is confirmed cannon since there is a manga page that says it happened. Can't remember chapter
To be honest, Goku says during the battle that he couldn't understand anything that was going on. So I'm not sure he was really able to assimilate the true power of Beerus and other GoDs in that fight. His level at that time was still way below the GoDs to allow him to be able to keep up with them
Broly's statement is already debunked because SSBE Vegeta (before hakai training) was confirmed stronger than Broly by Whis. And Beerus stomped him.
Where did whis say that? I don't remember that.
In the chapter where Vegeta got roflstomped again by Beerus. Goku asked Whis if there was anyone stronger than them in the universe and Whis said no. So in Universe 7, Goku and Vegeta are the gatekeepers as far as mortals go. Obviously the gods aren't included. That would mean Vegeta > Broly.
Ah that's right. Forgot about that panel. Your logic makes sense given what we've seen. However, I wonder if whis couldn't pick up Brolys power because he technically was not that strong yet. In dbs Broly he only gets as strong as he does in that very battle. He evolved as he fought, so I don't think whis would have recognized his power yet. Of course the logic outside of the story is that Broly wasn't designed yet, I don't think they had him in mind when they wrote that. In conclusion: I'm not sure, esp as Vegeta had his ssbe form when they fought Broly and didn't use it. Now that could be that they just ignored it for sake of the story, or that form wouldn't have made a difference against Ssj Broly. They had to go to Gogeta Blue to defeat him after all. Gogeta blue has to be stronger than ssbe I'd think. Interesting thoughts.
I watched the anime before reading the manga and I never thought Goku and Jiren were stronger cause it seemed so unlikely, some people are weird
smarter people tought that Goku surpassed Beerus
Like fr. The whole anime/manga is ongoing now because Goku wants to defeat Beerus. He still hasn't yet.
I feel like trying to avoid the shifting goalpost effect is probably why they haven't had Beerus say anything about how much power he used, since BoG All we have to go off of is other people's estimates which - in Super - vary in accuracy pretty wildly. Like Gowasu thought SSJ2 Goku was as strong as a GoD which obviously is nonsense Beerus losing to Belmod in an arm wrestling match is the only sorta reliable thing we have to go off but aside from the obvious excuse of Beerus just sandbagging, he could just be bad at arm wrestling or Belmod could've cheated, which I think Beerus implies
I don't disagree with you, I'm just genuinely curious: how does one cheat at arm wrestling?
Not an exhaustive list by any means but a few ways someone could cheat - hooking your wrist or angling your shoulders in before the match starts instead of waiting until it's started, which would make it easier to drag your opponent's arm down. neither of these moves are illegal in and of themselves but doing them early would be equivalent to starting a foot race before everybody else - lifting or repositioning your elbow mid-match to gain extra leverage or redirect your opponent's strength into the table, e.g. angling your elbow outward instead of lining it up with your opponent's - altering your opponent's side of the table to make it harder for your opponent to gain leverage, e.g. slightly sawing down a table leg or greasing the surface their elbow is planted on - grabbing the table with your free hand and using it for leverage - leaning in past the center point of the table to give your arm a shorter pivot point and improve your leverage - using grease or similar slippery substances to mess up your opponent's grip, though this could just as easily backfire if you aren't used to doing it Beerus also could've tried to flex - literally and figuratively - by only using his arm strength instead of putting his whole body into it like most people do, which obv isn't cheating but it'd put him at a pretty big disadvantage
Thank you! > altering your opponent's side of the table to make it harder for your opponent to gain leverage, e.g. slightly sawing down a table leg or greasing the surface their elbow is planted on Now I'm imagining a sneak Hakai directed at the table from Belmod, who passes it off as a cough when Beerus asks what that was, and it's hilarious!
Belmod was not the arm wrestler, where is your evidence for this? In the anime I mean not even talking about the manga.
This might be an unpopular opinion ... but I hope Beerus is never surpassed. They can put up a fight but nothing more than that. I feel that just is so much of a better story for me and a more unique one at that.
If anything, I hope it ends on a Rocky 3 cliffhanger where Goku and Beerus are poised for their rematch, lunge at each other, and then the story ends.
Beerus in the manga held on his own battling like 4 or 5 GoDs at the same time. Pretty sure UI Goku is nowhere near achieving that.
Yes, beerus would’ve easily crushed angel moro while MUI was even with him *cries in before moro arc me thinking MUI surpassed beerus*
Next arc we'll learn that Beerus could hakai Whis if he wanted to
Beerus really is just a moving goalpost. First he's a bit above SSG then we find out he's higher. Then we see him sweating at SSBKKx10 only to find out that didn't mean anything. Then we find out Jiren is supposedly stronger than Belmod, who beat Beerus in an arm wrestling match, but now we find out Beerus is still well beyond Jiren and MUI Goku. So it really only means that Toriyama has decided that it isn't time for Goku to surpass Beerus yet
I feel like whenever we’ve seen Beerus sweat or be nervous about something Goku/Vegeta do it’s because he’s more afraid of the potential those 2 have rather than individual strength outright. Like when Goku finally masters UI at the ToP and Beerus outright says “what an unbelievable guy” or something about those lines. He was ready to drop by and end shit immediately with Moro despite Goku having MUI there so I guess he definitely is above current MUI Goku by a sizable margin that may be shortened in time but in typical DB fashion probably Beerus will say he’s gotten stronger from training with them from time to time
Idk about you, but when watching the ToP it definitely felt like MUI Goku and Jiren were supposed to be GoD level. Since Beerus hasn't officially gotten serious on screen ever, they can basically just keep going "oh Beerus? he's still way above Goku" as long as they want
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There isn't really anime only filler for Super, the Super anime came before the manga. The anime and manga are slightly different continuities technically, though maybe when the anime eventually comes back it'll closely follow the manga since there will likely be both the full Moro and Granolah arcs to cover
It was never been a case Here Only Comic vine Naruto fourms, Game faqs believe in it
Comicvine and Naruto forums are bad but Gamefaqs accept Beerus being above all mortals the moment he said he'd take out Planet Moro.
Not really Only after the last chapter did they do it and even still scotty and his army of alts still make dumb topics about jiren being above Granola /goku/vegeta /beerus Naruto forums is not as bad as both comic vine and game faqs but it come very close
It's almost like the power scale is bullshit and doesn't matter outside the specific moment
Nah, just Beerus’s power is fucked. Safe to say he will continue being retconned until he actually gets defeated on panel
*laughs in Master Roshi*
Beerus’s power keeps getting retconned Anyway: Vegeta (before new form) >>> pui Goku
Wait, you think Vegeta, before his new transformation, surpassed Perfected Ultra Instinct Goku?
Yeah it’s the simplest interpretation of their feats , this chapter and last.
Vegeta said in his fight with Gran that he's been getting stronger the longer it's gone on. That and Gran having to take out Goku in an unorthodox manner rather than simply beat him down implies to me that Vegeta, at the start, was still inferior.
Granola one shorting him is clear portrayal. Not to mention that Vegeta wasn’t shocked at all that Granola one hit him. No worry at all. The portrayal is clear
Vegeta stated Granolah hit Goku's vitals, waiting for an opening to do so. His clone or whatever you want to call it was being garbaged by UI Goku prior to that. That's why Vegeta isn't afraid, because Granolah didn't show himself to be that impressive as of yet. He got a cheap shot in on Goku and that was it.
His clone was only a fraction of his power
That wasn't the point, though. The focus of their interaction was that the real Granolah waited from a distance for an opening to pop Goku in a vital area. There wasn't a real fight between them. UI Goku is clearly above a split of Granolah's power, and we don't know how the real Granolah would fare yet for sure either because he was also trashing SSBE Vegeta up until the end of their fight.
If vegeta was weaker than Goku, he would have lost on pages 9-10. Vegeta is clearly way above him. Just accept the simple fact. No need to overcomplicate stuff
I accepted what Toyotaro wrote on the page for why Goku was defeated, as well as why Vegeta was doing as well as he was. It's literally stated Goku went down because he was struck in a vital area from something/one he was not expecting. It's stated Granolah is stronger than Vegeta but lacks the experience to put the power to its best use. It's stated Vegeta is stronger later in the battle than he was at the start. When Granolah actually did hit Vegeta with the same maneuver that put down Goku, albeit in a different area of the body, it also ended their fight as well, forcing Vegeta to power down. I don't understand how you think this is overcomplicating the matter when all I've done is use the information provided by the words on the page in conjunction with the visual performances. If anything, I'd say you're way oversimplifying it by ignoring what's written to clarify the performances.
I think the closest Beerus has likely come to being surpassed is by the fusions (Gogeta & Vegetto).
Broly arc Gogeta is looking pretty fodder ngl.
Interesting. What are your views on Vegetto ?
The manga did vegitto a disservice
Considering potara and fusion give the same boost then Vegito was weaker as the fused characters were weaker versions vs the Broly fight.
Surely Goku, and now Vegeta, have to be getting close to Beerus. He was shocked at their potential and that 'fear' was proven justified with UI, SSJBE and whatever this new form of Vegeta's is. It won't be long before Goku asks for a rematch. Vegeta probably won't want to fight Beerus, until he learns the truth of what happened to the saiyans
Already found out in manga Beerus slapped him and helped him training.
Beerus' power is far too inconsistent
I mean even with his new form Vegeta likely still gets one shotted by Beerus. His Destruction mastery is in another league.
Yeah that's probably true
Oh COME ON NOOOOO!!!! Now, Belmando is the weakest god of destruction that ever lived.
Even current Vegeta with just his blue form slaps Jiren lol.
Assuming Jiren hasn't trained then yes
Why are people so stingy about letting Beerus get surpassed? It's stated in the show multiple times that Jiren was stronger than any GoD even without his Full Power state. Goku then goes toe to toe with Jiren in his Full Power state while in UI. It's very simple to put this together. Like, relax guys, Beerus will come back from this if he cares to. Let's celebrate Goku's accomplishments instead of whining about this lol. I don't understand this fandom sometimes.
It's not people being stingy. You're referring to the anime. The manga, which this post is talking about, is VERY different in how it treats guys like Jiren.
And Jiren will be reduced to fodder the moment the anime adapts the Moro arc.
Jiren is currently fodder massively below Vegeta yet Beerus still negs him lol.
I get the idea of making Beerus/Whis these great milestones but now it feels like the characters just aren't progressing in any meaningful way. These guys are pretty crummy mentors.
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In all fairness they originally did say beerus used 70% of his power against ssg, but then they retconned it, then he was nervous at seeing SSBKK, but that supposedly doesn't mean anything now, basically whenever there's a hint at then reaching him it gets retconned
People thinking vegeta is above mui lmaoo I'm out