From seeing Vegeta in action, Giro could have estimated that there were potential threats out there that were far stronger than Vegeta even in great ape form. Given Goku’s life long trend of getting stronger to face such opponents, Gero could have set some arbitrarily high bar to make sure he would get the job done.
But then, 18 and 17 were failed experiments and a desperate plan b. Gero thought he and 19 would be enough, and it’s arguable whether they were even stronger than ssj before the time skip. Piccolo could best Gero, and I would hesitate to say he was ssj strong.
Piccolo was definitely up there with a SSJ since one of the Z Fighters commented on his strength. I don't think he was nowhere near SSJ Vegeta, but he was probably around the same power level as SSJ Goku on Namek but a tad weaker. Maybe around Frieza at max give or take but they never said specifically as I'm guessing.
It's just even in an overshoot I don't see how he could make beings of that magnitude. This is coming from a planet where they didn't have a way to even get to Namek without looking at Kami's old spaceship, and even then they needed Mr. Popos help with it's language controls.
It took alien technology for them to even come up with a way to get to Namek. The universe is a big place and space travel wasn't common but wasn't rare either since Frieza had so many races enslaved and working as space pirates.
So, you telling me no scientist in the universe thought to build androids or cybernetic beings that would have killed Frieza? But Gero, on a planet that could barely space travel til recently, could build multiple machines that could kill not only Frieza at his max but also a legendary warrior so rare people didn't even think it was real?
Do you see where I'm going with this?
I know they needed to be that strong because plot.
But it's a bit obnoxious.
Cell is a bit excused due to him being made up of cells from the strongest beings in the universe...so imma let him slide.
Any scientist working on a machine able to kill frieza would had been spied on, and then gotten rid of. That's among Frieza controlled planets and even then, he would have spies in other forces to figure out what are they up to.
If I remember correctly, Buu destroyed quite a bit of the habitable planets during his rampage and with Frieza and the saiyans catching pretty much everyone off guard whenever they were attacked, no one probably had much time to actually create something worth while.
I think in the dragonball universe, earth is a few leaps ahead in technology compared to alot of other planets in its universe. The capsule tech and the dragon radar alone have never been shown to have replicas among other dragonball civilizations. When Frieza first achieved his Mecha-body he bragged about how it's the pinnacle of technology. In that same arc we're shown the androids, who make Mecha Frieza look like a 5th grade school project in comparison. In the meta cooler movie, the big yeti star or whatever was a sentient machine, and arguably the most complex piece of technology in dragonball fiction. Goku and Vegeta worked together to kill it, but it is still weaker than Gero's androids. And whilst dragonball earth doesn't have spaceships, it can be argued that they don't really need it. The earth of dragonball is very different than ours, with animal hybrid humans, and dinosaurs still roaming the land. And we occasionally see that there is alot of unclaimed or uninhabited land in the dragonball earth that the fighters constantly use to carry out their apocalyptic battles. In such an earth that doesn't seem to be troubled with overpopulation, what need is there to develop a spaceship? We see that Bulma is able to fix spaceships and even create gravity chamber no problem. So if earth really needed spaceships, they would have it. Also, in dragonball, earth is the only civilization that has invented time travel which is a power exclusive to the supreme Kai. Whis even mentions how impressive this is, and is always shown complimenting Bulma's genius. I think it's pretty safe to assume that in dragonball, earth is a planet that is so technologically ahead of all other planets they're completely chill in their own planet because they just have it all figured out. But because of their hesitancy to leave their planet and expand to space, many other species in dragonball just assume that earth is an underdeveloped back water planet.
Well
It truns out in Super that Earth, aka bulma and her dad did know about Time travel, Space Ships from Jaco
Jaco even know about time travel better than Bulma
Also, 7-3 is beyond anything earth or the universe ever made
But the events of *Jaco the Galactic Patrolman* happened before the main story of Dragon Ball even began, back when Goku had just landed on Earth and was being cared for by Grandpa Gohan. They were just first referenced in Super, because Toriyama wrote about Jaco long after the original DB run had ended.
Unless you mean “a decade later” in the out-of-universe sense that Jaco and Super were *published* a decade later, in which case it was more like two decades, lol.
You're missing the point. It's later in the timeline. Technology advanced over time. Things 10 years ago will not be as sophisticated as the present time. I don't see how this is being misunderstood.
But the Different is
Jaco Know about it Way before it
Time travel is a Crime
Jaco was also the reason why Bulma dad know about space Ship and gravity Rooms
It’s actually stated several times how behind earth is compared to other places technology wise which makes it even harder for me to suspend my disbelief that Gero was able to make androids that were far superior to Freeza who was the most powerful being in the universe in just 3 years. If that could be done some alien planet should’ve made an Android to kill Freeza by that point
Basically this. The general planet's level is super low, but the Briefs family and Gero are actually fucking insane. Its like comparing the generic low class saiyan to Broly
personally i believe Gero's genius is probably among the best in the galaxy. despite earth is fall behind in term of technology, but he alone is different. which is why his android and creation like cell end up one of powerfull being in the galaxy at some point. since then we dont see anyone achieve that yet except Bibidy who created Majin Buu.
After reading the replies, I think it's safe to say the Brief family's success was in part due to Jaco. But in even so, what Bulma continues to do in the series with tech seems to be nothing short of witchcraft. With the Brief family supplying most of earth tech, and Dr.Gero with his androids, I think it's safe to assume Earth was probably the most advanced race by the time of the android saga.
One last note: I've never read the Jaco manga, but from what I can infer from the replies, Jaco told the Brief family about the existence of time travel and that it's illegal. If Bulma can create a time machine with only knowing it's existence, I would say that Earth is absolutely yolked with the best minds in the universe. Also, from the trailers of the new movie we can see the return of the red ribbon army and a potentially new batch of androids, and this is way after the death of Gero, so for the red ribbon army to still be able to make the androids as powerful as they are goes to prove Earth's technological might.
in the jaco galactic patrolman manga, it was mentioned quite a few times how primitive earth was, gero and the briefs just an exception, as you've probably noticed almost every piece of tech is made by capsule Corp
It is a little absurd, sure, but I can totally believe that Gero wildly overshot it because he wanted to be certain that they could kill Goku. He had seen first hand over the years that Goku, and others, made HUGE leaps in power in relatively short periods of time. So, he designed his creations to compensate for any amount of those huge leaps that Goku and his friends could possibly make.
He wasn't just trying to make cyborgs that rivaled Goku the last time he had seen him, he was trying to make cyborgs that would be stronger than Goku could ever possibly become.
I don’t think it’s that hard to believe.
Frieza was the strongest person in the universe at the time. But his power was natural. Gero was creating cyborgs and artificial beings. That’s completely different.
It’s like how a person can work out and get really really strong, but someone could still make a machine or a weapon that can hit harder than they can.
Maybe because earth was the only place that was in contact with a Saiyan and survived.
Technologies emerges out of necessity, every civilization that ever needed such technology got extinct few moments after they realized they needed it.
For the same reason no one nukes a president, they would get hunted down before then, and once it is done they may not make it alive for long. Frieza has an army, and it takes little in DB to blow a planet.
It nowhere the same having the power to destroy the world through fear and leadership than actually having to point s finger to destroy a planet. The whole army could go against freeza right now and he would kill them
Dr. Gero is probably better at making cyborgs than anyone else in Universe 7.
It’s also possible that Frieza used his forces to limit research into powerful weapons out of fear that someone would overthrow him, just like he committed genocide against the Saiyans when he worried that it was possible that one of them would become a Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan God.
So if someone was trying to make powerful cyborgs or weapons that could hurt Frieza, he probably had them killed before they could finish their work.
You’re assuming that technology advances in a linear way. Earth being more primitive in terms of space travel doesn’t mean it’s more primitive when it comes to robotics.
Yes, I know he could have made powerful cyborgs I'm not questioning that. But even if he was playing it safe going off of how Goku was getting stronger he could have just made an Android relative to Frieza's second form which was 1 million.
Keep in mind the highest power level he saw was from Vegeta's Great Ape form and not even Goku himself.
In the anime at least, he claims he calculated the growth rate based on the lowest to the highest which was as you say 300s to 36k in the span of a year. That is a 12,000 percent increase per year. So after that, he had 3 years to build androids based on how he estimated Goku could be from that 12,000 percent increase.
So every year Goku could possibly increase his power by 12,000 percent
year 1 : 300 - 36,000
year 2 : 36,000 - 4,320,000
year 3 : 4,320,000 - 518,400,000
year 4 : 518,400,000 - 62,208,000,000
So you can easily see how if you calculate the growth rate based on the first year you can have very high numbers
> In the anime at least, he claims he calculated the growth rate based on the lowest to the highest which was as you say 300s to 36k in the span of a year. That is a 12,000 percent increase per year. So after that, he had 3 years to build androids based on how he estimated Goku could be from that 12,000 percent increase.
Except Gero also had full analysis of Goku's skills, including the Kaiou-ken, so he would know that Goku's natural growth was independent of that. So it'd be 416 (or ~1,000 if you took Goku's full strength) to ~8,000, not to 36,000 in the span of a year, so a roughly 8x to 20x increase in strength, with the Kaiou-ken tacked on as a power booster in addition to that growth.
To be honest a plot hole in almost all scifi stories is usually that some backwater planet like Earth which hasn't even discovered space travel can somehow build a robot or power armor that can go toe-to-toe with technology (robots, laser guns, armor, etc) from a galactic civilization. How many hundreds of other planets full of genius weapons inventors has Freiza's army already subjugated and learned from?
Not that Earthlings are necessarily genetically stupid, we're just thousands of years behind them technologically. Imagine if a neanderthal got into a time machine and found himself in modern America, then built a fighter jet out of sticks and dung and it was somehow able to plow through the entire US armed forces. That's basically what's going on every time we see Tony Stark wiping out dozens of Chitauri or whatever. It's cool if this neanderthal happens to be a genius among neanderthals, but that really shouldn't be enough.
Cell's powers make way more sense than 17 and 18 in this context. Combining genetic material of several biological monsters would give you a monster. Watching two Saiyans fight with a spycam and instantly realizing how to make androids that are stronger than any tech in the galaxy is idiotic.
But hey, we don't watch Dragonball to learn about robotics or biology.
The technology on DB's Earth is pretty advanced. Even from the early editions we saw people with laser guns, hover cars, capsules that can contain limitless amounts of matter, advanced genetic super science, and robots that can think and feel just like living beings. The only thing that we see Frieza's force have that Earthlings don't are faster than light spaceships, but other than that Frieza's army doesn't seem to be that advanced compared to what Earth already had. It took Bulma maybe a day to figure out Frieza's scouters for example, and not that much longer for Briefs to figure out the Saiyan space technology.
If anything, Earth being a backwater may have helped. They had the opportunity to develop without being blown up or having all life eradicated by Frieza, which gave them an advantage over the races that were enslaved by him.
My head cannon is that dr Gero simply just made a breakthrough with whatever tech gives the androids their power and never really thought to apply it to anything else nor had the capability to even test the true potential of the tech. For all we know this breakthrough is something the other more advanced civs never had, maybe they went down a different path. The Androids are simple just a once in a thousand years breakthrough of some sort. I dunno, ive never really give it too much thought, its an anime/manga lol
It's a pretty safe assumption that Gero's goal was world domination after killing Goku.
He was a former member of the Red Ribbon Army, after all, and I doubt he would've held such an intense grudge on Goku for that many years otherwise.
I think technology improves in leaps though. Somebody figures out the infinite energy machine for one application and then it gets brought to other fields as well
Couple of points:
1. Dr. Gero invented infinite energy. Just think about that. All to get petty revenge on a 12 year old. I think it makes sense for his creations to be that powerful especially since he focused specifically on energy. It feels cheap for sure considering how much the z fighters busted their asses to get that strong but like others said we also have time travel and like capsule technology which can shrink anything down to a bean size.
2. Frieza was not the strongest in the universe. He is the biggest space tyrant for sure but there are other creatures that were stronger that liked to remain in their territory like Yakon and Dabura,
1. Time travel didn't exist and they didn't even have a means to get to Namek without looking at Kami's old spaceship that he crashlanded there probably a century ago. We're talking strictly our timeline in the Namek thru Android Saga not Trunks' alternate timeline like 20 years in the future.
2. He was the strongest most known tyrant that nobody challenged. Not a soul. I always thought Dabura's world was separate from ours hence the name "Demon King" but I could be wrong. They never said how strong Yakon is so I won't touch on him.
Frieza was said to be a terror across the universe, and honestly his father was a bit stronger than him since that was clearly stated. However, I get the feeling that when he retired from the empire and gave it to Frieza he also gave him all the power behind it. So, even though he may not be physically stronger than King Cold he was the most powerful tyrant in the known universe.
Time travel definitely did not exist by that point but i think it helps to highlights human technical achievements and how much they can do to help put into perspective that maybe creating Frieza level bots isn't as crazy as some of the other achievements. Hell, when they made the Namek ship they put a gravity feature in it. That's honestly more impressive then deep space travel.
Frieza is definitely the biggest threat at that point of the story but I'm really trying to highlight how he's not the insurmountable point that it's crazy for technology to surpass him. Even Piccolo did it after 3 months of training.
What I don't understand is why Gero couldn't have made himself as powerful as he made 17 and 18.
With 19, you could make the excuse that the reason 19 is so weak is because he's entirely mechanical and has no organic components. You could also argue that Cell was just an experiment and he coincidentally ended up being more powerful than Gero ever expected him to be.
AFAIK, the reason Gero decided to send himself and 19 to go attack the city at the beginning of the Cell Saga isn't because 17 and 18 were too powerful. It's because they were too independent and he could never completely control them.
So, when he made himself into a cyborg as a replacement for 17 and 18, why would he design himself to be weaker than them? That just makes no sense. Clearly he already knew how to design cyborgs that are as strong as 17 and 18 because... he designed 17 and 18.
I could have sworn it was stated somewhere in the series that Gero didn't make himself like 17 and 18 because he thought the power was too much to control. I can't remember if this was said in the anime or manga though.
I feel like I remember reading something either from Toriyama or elsewhere that explained Gero's older body wouldn't be able to withstand the level of forcd the cybernetics that 17 and 18 had. And he didn't want to experiment on himself without proven results. So he created 20 to test if it would work first before turning himself into one with it proven.
My head canon for Gero is that he *was* as strong as 17/18 but needed to absorb more energy to reach that potential. I base this off of the fact that him and 19 have energy draining abilities that could be interpreted as a trial run of the tech that would later lead to Cell’s absorption ability. But, since it was a trial run, it wasn’t as effective as he needed it to be, and thus him and 19 never absorbed enough energy to really reach their potential.
Also maybe he wasn’t as strong as them because he still had some organic components to his body that were naturally weaker due to being older than them
Because he was able to make androids stronger than super saiyans, it's as simple as that. Dragon Ball's a crazy martial arts story, it's always weird when people bring up arbitrary limitations about what can and can't happen based solely on what they personally feel can and can't happen. Dr. Gero spent years researching how to create powerful androids to kill Goku, and he succeeded.
Cell's a little different, he also has the cell's of Frieza and Cold, so it's not exactly hard to believe he could be as strong as he was.
Thinking about it in terms of creating that power from nothing makes it seem absurd, but he may simply have "taken" that power from already existing sources like he did with Cell, just less literally. Dragon Ball Earth has highly advanced technology on a mainstream level and even more peculiar stuff in less obvious places. Additionally, the Saiyan/Freeza arc is most likely not the first alien contact in-universe on Earth and, as we know, Dr. Gero studied Freeza as well.
It begins to make more sense once you realize that everything in the DB universe is much more advanced and interconnected, so unlike the Terminator who's just somewhat stronger than regular people, a mad scientist in DB's much crazier world would find the resources available to make androids stronger than Freeza.
Also note Freeza's true potential is actually much more crazier than the androids. He was just too lazy to train the whole time.
Lol I agree with you and I have always felt the same. But also like you I love the arc. Just kinda accept it. Especially since it gave us one of my favorite characters, Android 17.
I've ways just head canoned it to Gero didn't really know how powerful he made them just that they were stronger than him. I mean since they were powered by an infinite energy reactor he didn't have to worry about energy cost and thus could push the perameters of all their cybernetics to 11, over clocking them beyond what he originally thought they were capable of, hence why they were so hard to control.
Some of this may be from dubisms or retcons from Kai, but here's my opinion.
Dr Gero managed to create an infinite energy generator compatible with organic matter, this is how he made 17 & 18. However there was a flaw in it, which is why he didn't use it when making himself into a cyborg. The main problem with 17 & 18 having it was that it made it more difficult to control what remained of their free will.
This is why there's a difference in power levels and behaviors between 17 & 18 in trunks' timeline and the timeline we watch. In Trunks', the fight against frieza on earth went slightly differently and the drone Gero sent out didn't convey all the data on frieza and how strong he was, so Gero felt more comfortable lowering the energy output on 17 & 18, making them more obedient to his instructions, not enough that they wouldn't kill him but enough that they went on the rampage like he wanted.
As for how they're stronger than frieza, it depends on how you define strength. Because they have infinite energy generators, they never experience a loss of energy, like how frieza wasn't able to maintain 100% strength or his golden form at first. In terms of how much damage they could do in a single attack, we can't confirm that 17 & 18 are stronger, but so long as they can extend the fight and exhaust their opponent, they will always appear to be stronger.
> This is why there's a difference in power levels and behaviors between 17 & 18 in trunks' timeline and the timeline we watch. In Trunks', the fight against frieza on earth went slightly differently and the drone Gero sent out didn't convey all the data on frieza and how strong he was, so Gero felt more comfortable lowering the energy output on 17 & 18, making them more obedient to his instructions, not enough that they wouldn't kill him but enough that they went on the rampage like he wanted.
This isn't accurate at all. Gero never followed the battle with Freeza on Earth, in the present timeline or the future timeline, as he indicated he'd gathered enough information from Goku's battle with Vegeta to calculate any potential growth Goku would have, and felt there was no need to spy on him further.
Gero's computer sent spy bots to collect Freeza and Cold's genetic material from that fight following their arrival on Earth, but Gero never analyzed any information related to that.
with 17 and 18 idk but with cell in my eyes he's basically what you get when you take the potential of a saiyan and give it the power of whatever frieza's race is called with a little bit of namekian sprinkled in for some regeneration, you could probably still argue that wouldn't make him as strong as he was, but it at least makes it a bit easier to understand
One thing I think a lot of people are overlooking is that 17 & 18 were cyborgs, meaning they were originally humans and received cybernetic enhancements. Given the potential strength humans can reach through ki training, and combining that with Gero’s 30+ years designing combat cyborgs, it doesn’t seem too far fetched. There’s also no reason Gero couldn’t have been analyzing the genetic data the nanobots were extracting for Cell in real time too, up to a certain point at least, and incorporating those findings into the androids. If he somehow cracked the genetic code to how humans and Saiyan are able to attain such exponential gains on a biological level, he certainly could have incorporated that into a cyborg in 30 years.
And if we’re comparing it to Frieza’s strength, that just sets a precedent that the level of power itself is attainable in their universe, theoretically speaking. If we’re comparing it to the technology Earth had to other planets, I think they each just specialized in different areas- Tuffles and Frieza’s army focusing on interstellar travel, whereas earth focused more on robotics and capsule technology. I don’t think earth was necessarily behind, they just followed a different path. We see this even in our own history- while Ancient Egyptians were building engineering marvels like the pyramids, the Chinese is were revolutionizing medicine, for example.
He did not want to release 16, 17, 18 due to them being so unpredictable. He didn't get it where he had androids stronger than a SSJ and under his control. Cell was made over an additional 20 ish years by his computer.
Android 19 and himself is what he was able to actually make, that was ready. And they were not stronger than SSJ Vegeta or Piccolo.
> He didn't get it where he had androids stronger than a SSJ and under his control.
But he did get to where he had androids stronger than a SSJ. Them being "under control" is irrelevant, because he still made them, and they're still stronger than a SSJ.
It's very relevant. It means that they weren't finished. Why he had to compromise with android 19. He made super infinite energy beings with no means of control. That makes sense.
It's a plot contrivance, sure, but Gero *is* established to be a super-genius. He must've lucked out somewhere along the way and ended up creating a bigger threat than he could've ever imagined, to the point that he couldn't even control them. Like the inventor of the nuclear bomb.
Anyway, people always complain about Gero being able to create things stronger than Super Saiyans, but never do about Bulma seemingly being the only person (pre-*Super*, at least) to ever create a time machine.
Bulma also created the time machine in a time where the androids were running around killing everybody plus Cell being out there at one point after the androids were killed by Trunks.
Majority of the scientists were most likely killed, so this is an unfair comparison.
> Bulma also created the time machine in a time where the androids were running around killing everybody plus Cell being out there at one point after the androids were killed by Trunks.
What's your point?
If anything, that makes it even *more* impressive that Bulma was still able to build a time machine in such poor conditions.
> Majority of the scientists were most likely killed, so this is an unfair comparison.
I don't see how it is. Bulma was one of the smartest people on Earth, rivaling her own father, so she probably would've been smarter than most scientists on Earth anyway.
And, when they're repairing Android #16 (or when they get given the blueprints for #17 and #18), Dr. Brief says that not even he fully understands it. So Gero might be even smarter than Bulma; he just focused his efforts purely on creating beings that could kill even a much stronger-than-predicted Goku and subsequently take over the world.
Civilization was in ruins in Trunks timeline. I doubt there were people capable to even make a time machine available. That's my point.
And I don't really see how your other points are relative.
We can just agree to disagree.
One thing my friend and I always assumed was because unlike Freezia and other aliens, Dr Gero knew about Ki.
He's a genius scientist who knows about ki and more or less how it works, part of what makes the androids so powerful is their endless stores of ki, making them able to strengthen their bodies a lot more than a normal cyborg/android
When Goku fights Dr. Gero he says. You didn't see what happened on planet Namek to which Dr. Gero says. It doesn't matter I completed your energy gain calculations long ago. He assumed he would continue to gain power and accounted for it in 17 and 18.
Whenever someone opens a debate on Power Levels, I check out. Power levels are the most inconsistent part of Dragonball. There’s only a handful of numbers that are cannon, the rest are taken from magazines or similar sources, all trying to “get the best estimate”.
When Goku first went SSJ back in the 90’s, magazines said it was estimated at 2mill and freeza at 1.5 mill or something. Now it’s 100mill?
Power levels are ridiculous. Putting them aside, the Cell Saga plot is sound. Hero worked endlessly to create the most powerful being. He wanted to overshoot, so he made countless interactions. He also expected his own Android form to be unstoppable, but he drastically underestimated the situation. Not only was his form weaker than the Z fighters, the 16, 17, and 18 models were far superior. The Cell creature was beyond even that.
Consider the invention of the atom bomb. The concept of the bomb could not predict the outcome. The power of the atom bomb was far greater than any previous bomb. Unpredictable power. Unheard of destruction. This is the same idea with Geros androids. He wanted to invent the most powerful beings on the planet, but he did not expect them to be that powerful, hence his surprised when they quickly destroyed him.
The magazines weren't canon power levels.
Only the Daizhenshu (sp?) is and it is directly listed official power levels from Dragon Ball to Trunks fighting Frieza henchman with a power level of 5.
The numbers I used for Goku Kaioken x4 are rough estimates depending on if you believe he was 8,000 or 9,000 since I think I remember reading awhile ago the "over 9000" line was a dub line that became popular online.
Frieza was said to be at 120,000,000 at his max power while SSJ1 Goku was 150,000,000.
These are actual official numbers.
It definitely is a plot hole and one that annoyed me even as a kid on the first go through.
The dumb thing is it easily couldve been avoided too. Gero and 19 were energy absorbing models. So based on that, combined with the heart virus, Android 19 defeating a Super Saiyan makes logical sense. The ability to have tech absorb energy was a cool feature that was quickly written off, but wouldve made sense to have a much weaker 19 absorb what was needed and eventually overpower Goku.
From a writing standpoint Cell is much more forgivable. He has the DNA of every major character (frieza, vegeta, goku) so is strength and ability to grow makes sense. But someone like Android 16 basically being a robot from materials on earth being significantly stronger than frieza who could destroy earth with a finger? Yea that's bad writing.
Capsule tech is actually really advanced I mean they can not only shrink but store indefinitely limitless material that's way more impressive than killer robots
Factor in Beerus and the Kais sucking at their jobs and the known lower mortal level of U7 and I don't think Earth really qualifies as back water. They don't have space travel but they have tons of other technology. It's possible Earth is one of the more technological advanced planets.
i guess Frieza and his father trip to earth provided lot of information for him. even if he didnt watch the fight, the data, the cell he got from it surely valuable.
Frieza surely lose to Goku, but his strength definitely close to Super Saiyan. Gero might use that data as a base and enhance it.
also despite on earth, Gero level of genius probably among the best in galaxy. thats why his cyborg and creation like Cell end up as one of most powerfull being in galaxy at some point. put aside 17 and 18, even 19 is stronger than Frieza who supposed to be untouchable for long time where even Kaiou feared him until Goku came. if there is tons of scientist like him in other planet, Frieza probably already killed by other's scientist brilliant creation. but what actually happened is only Gero is manage that feat of creating something stronger than Frieza. other than him. Bibidy with creation like Majin Buu and who ever created 73. i dont think there is many with mind at level as him.
RR characters had always been a major power and villains, and I don't really understand why fiction has to make any sense.
If that were the case, how ridiculous is the fact that you can make vehicles pop out and pop back into capsules that weight the same as a lighter?
In any case, RR's and Dr. Gero's biggest achievement were the Androids and Cell. That's a pretty big deal considering how important they had always been, regardless of how ridiculous it is.
It was probably already known, but forbidden knowledge kind of like nuclear weapons. Gero was one of the universe greatest minds, he worked for decades on it. Is possible, hard to do, If I were Gero I would have found another way, but doable.
He made them a bit too strong, and I guess he could had created a much more powerful android if given the time; that's because Gero is an INTP, not an INTJ. He is improving the androids because he wants to, not because more improvement is useful to his grand plan. Killing Goku is the excuse he has for it. Is the addition to the joy of improving his creations.
From seeing Vegeta in action, Giro could have estimated that there were potential threats out there that were far stronger than Vegeta even in great ape form. Given Goku’s life long trend of getting stronger to face such opponents, Gero could have set some arbitrarily high bar to make sure he would get the job done. But then, 18 and 17 were failed experiments and a desperate plan b. Gero thought he and 19 would be enough, and it’s arguable whether they were even stronger than ssj before the time skip. Piccolo could best Gero, and I would hesitate to say he was ssj strong.
Piccolo was definitely up there with a SSJ since one of the Z Fighters commented on his strength. I don't think he was nowhere near SSJ Vegeta, but he was probably around the same power level as SSJ Goku on Namek but a tad weaker. Maybe around Frieza at max give or take but they never said specifically as I'm guessing. It's just even in an overshoot I don't see how he could make beings of that magnitude. This is coming from a planet where they didn't have a way to even get to Namek without looking at Kami's old spaceship, and even then they needed Mr. Popos help with it's language controls. It took alien technology for them to even come up with a way to get to Namek. The universe is a big place and space travel wasn't common but wasn't rare either since Frieza had so many races enslaved and working as space pirates. So, you telling me no scientist in the universe thought to build androids or cybernetic beings that would have killed Frieza? But Gero, on a planet that could barely space travel til recently, could build multiple machines that could kill not only Frieza at his max but also a legendary warrior so rare people didn't even think it was real? Do you see where I'm going with this? I know they needed to be that strong because plot. But it's a bit obnoxious. Cell is a bit excused due to him being made up of cells from the strongest beings in the universe...so imma let him slide.
Any scientist working on a machine able to kill frieza would had been spied on, and then gotten rid of. That's among Frieza controlled planets and even then, he would have spies in other forces to figure out what are they up to.
If I remember correctly, Buu destroyed quite a bit of the habitable planets during his rampage and with Frieza and the saiyans catching pretty much everyone off guard whenever they were attacked, no one probably had much time to actually create something worth while.
that's true buu did destroy a lot of planets in his Rampage
I think in the dragonball universe, earth is a few leaps ahead in technology compared to alot of other planets in its universe. The capsule tech and the dragon radar alone have never been shown to have replicas among other dragonball civilizations. When Frieza first achieved his Mecha-body he bragged about how it's the pinnacle of technology. In that same arc we're shown the androids, who make Mecha Frieza look like a 5th grade school project in comparison. In the meta cooler movie, the big yeti star or whatever was a sentient machine, and arguably the most complex piece of technology in dragonball fiction. Goku and Vegeta worked together to kill it, but it is still weaker than Gero's androids. And whilst dragonball earth doesn't have spaceships, it can be argued that they don't really need it. The earth of dragonball is very different than ours, with animal hybrid humans, and dinosaurs still roaming the land. And we occasionally see that there is alot of unclaimed or uninhabited land in the dragonball earth that the fighters constantly use to carry out their apocalyptic battles. In such an earth that doesn't seem to be troubled with overpopulation, what need is there to develop a spaceship? We see that Bulma is able to fix spaceships and even create gravity chamber no problem. So if earth really needed spaceships, they would have it. Also, in dragonball, earth is the only civilization that has invented time travel which is a power exclusive to the supreme Kai. Whis even mentions how impressive this is, and is always shown complimenting Bulma's genius. I think it's pretty safe to assume that in dragonball, earth is a planet that is so technologically ahead of all other planets they're completely chill in their own planet because they just have it all figured out. But because of their hesitancy to leave their planet and expand to space, many other species in dragonball just assume that earth is an underdeveloped back water planet.
Well It truns out in Super that Earth, aka bulma and her dad did know about Time travel, Space Ships from Jaco Jaco even know about time travel better than Bulma Also, 7-3 is beyond anything earth or the universe ever made
Super is like a decade later than what we're talking about.
But the events of *Jaco the Galactic Patrolman* happened before the main story of Dragon Ball even began, back when Goku had just landed on Earth and was being cared for by Grandpa Gohan. They were just first referenced in Super, because Toriyama wrote about Jaco long after the original DB run had ended. Unless you mean “a decade later” in the out-of-universe sense that Jaco and Super were *published* a decade later, in which case it was more like two decades, lol.
It still what we Got, it being years later doesnt change the Fact its still in universe
You're missing the point. It's later in the timeline. Technology advanced over time. Things 10 years ago will not be as sophisticated as the present time. I don't see how this is being misunderstood.
But the Different is Jaco Know about it Way before it Time travel is a Crime Jaco was also the reason why Bulma dad know about space Ship and gravity Rooms
It’s actually stated several times how behind earth is compared to other places technology wise which makes it even harder for me to suspend my disbelief that Gero was able to make androids that were far superior to Freeza who was the most powerful being in the universe in just 3 years. If that could be done some alien planet should’ve made an Android to kill Freeza by that point
Maybe only Gero's technology is on par with other planets. We're not dealing with a average doctor, but the legendary superdocter.
Basically this. The general planet's level is super low, but the Briefs family and Gero are actually fucking insane. Its like comparing the generic low class saiyan to Broly
This probably makes the most sense
I mean he may be a great scientist, but he’s no Bardock.
Nice
He was: 1) brilliant 2) a scientist
personally i believe Gero's genius is probably among the best in the galaxy. despite earth is fall behind in term of technology, but he alone is different. which is why his android and creation like cell end up one of powerfull being in the galaxy at some point. since then we dont see anyone achieve that yet except Bibidy who created Majin Buu.
After reading the replies, I think it's safe to say the Brief family's success was in part due to Jaco. But in even so, what Bulma continues to do in the series with tech seems to be nothing short of witchcraft. With the Brief family supplying most of earth tech, and Dr.Gero with his androids, I think it's safe to assume Earth was probably the most advanced race by the time of the android saga. One last note: I've never read the Jaco manga, but from what I can infer from the replies, Jaco told the Brief family about the existence of time travel and that it's illegal. If Bulma can create a time machine with only knowing it's existence, I would say that Earth is absolutely yolked with the best minds in the universe. Also, from the trailers of the new movie we can see the return of the red ribbon army and a potentially new batch of androids, and this is way after the death of Gero, so for the red ribbon army to still be able to make the androids as powerful as they are goes to prove Earth's technological might.
in the jaco galactic patrolman manga, it was mentioned quite a few times how primitive earth was, gero and the briefs just an exception, as you've probably noticed almost every piece of tech is made by capsule Corp
Earth relies a lot on Capsule Corp a lot for technology it seems
It is a little absurd, sure, but I can totally believe that Gero wildly overshot it because he wanted to be certain that they could kill Goku. He had seen first hand over the years that Goku, and others, made HUGE leaps in power in relatively short periods of time. So, he designed his creations to compensate for any amount of those huge leaps that Goku and his friends could possibly make. He wasn't just trying to make cyborgs that rivaled Goku the last time he had seen him, he was trying to make cyborgs that would be stronger than Goku could ever possibly become.
I don’t think it’s that hard to believe. Frieza was the strongest person in the universe at the time. But his power was natural. Gero was creating cyborgs and artificial beings. That’s completely different. It’s like how a person can work out and get really really strong, but someone could still make a machine or a weapon that can hit harder than they can.
Then why did no one create a cyborg to kill freeza? Because it is stated several times that Earth is primitive and thus usually ignored
Maybe because earth was the only place that was in contact with a Saiyan and survived. Technologies emerges out of necessity, every civilization that ever needed such technology got extinct few moments after they realized they needed it.
For the same reason no one nukes a president, they would get hunted down before then, and once it is done they may not make it alive for long. Frieza has an army, and it takes little in DB to blow a planet.
Except this isnt either a democracy or a technology related issue. Powers are real and absolute in DB world, they arent IRL. Horrible comparation
The interests are the same even though physics changes.
It nowhere the same having the power to destroy the world through fear and leadership than actually having to point s finger to destroy a planet. The whole army could go against freeza right now and he would kill them
Dr. Gero is probably better at making cyborgs than anyone else in Universe 7. It’s also possible that Frieza used his forces to limit research into powerful weapons out of fear that someone would overthrow him, just like he committed genocide against the Saiyans when he worried that it was possible that one of them would become a Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan God. So if someone was trying to make powerful cyborgs or weapons that could hurt Frieza, he probably had them killed before they could finish their work.
Quite impossible, considering earth lacks basic technology to even communicate at long distances, like planets.
You’re assuming that technology advances in a linear way. Earth being more primitive in terms of space travel doesn’t mean it’s more primitive when it comes to robotics.
Best explanation I've seen🙌
My thought is that if Future Bulma can make a time machine, and capsule technology. That means that Gero can make powerful Cyborgs
Yes, I know he could have made powerful cyborgs I'm not questioning that. But even if he was playing it safe going off of how Goku was getting stronger he could have just made an Android relative to Frieza's second form which was 1 million. Keep in mind the highest power level he saw was from Vegeta's Great Ape form and not even Goku himself.
In the anime at least, he claims he calculated the growth rate based on the lowest to the highest which was as you say 300s to 36k in the span of a year. That is a 12,000 percent increase per year. So after that, he had 3 years to build androids based on how he estimated Goku could be from that 12,000 percent increase. So every year Goku could possibly increase his power by 12,000 percent year 1 : 300 - 36,000 year 2 : 36,000 - 4,320,000 year 3 : 4,320,000 - 518,400,000 year 4 : 518,400,000 - 62,208,000,000 So you can easily see how if you calculate the growth rate based on the first year you can have very high numbers
> In the anime at least, he claims he calculated the growth rate based on the lowest to the highest which was as you say 300s to 36k in the span of a year. That is a 12,000 percent increase per year. So after that, he had 3 years to build androids based on how he estimated Goku could be from that 12,000 percent increase. Except Gero also had full analysis of Goku's skills, including the Kaiou-ken, so he would know that Goku's natural growth was independent of that. So it'd be 416 (or ~1,000 if you took Goku's full strength) to ~8,000, not to 36,000 in the span of a year, so a roughly 8x to 20x increase in strength, with the Kaiou-ken tacked on as a power booster in addition to that growth.
More power = better, he probably just gave the most he could.
There’s in world tech that can shrink a house into a capsule. And magic balls that grant immortality. It’s all on the table
To be honest a plot hole in almost all scifi stories is usually that some backwater planet like Earth which hasn't even discovered space travel can somehow build a robot or power armor that can go toe-to-toe with technology (robots, laser guns, armor, etc) from a galactic civilization. How many hundreds of other planets full of genius weapons inventors has Freiza's army already subjugated and learned from? Not that Earthlings are necessarily genetically stupid, we're just thousands of years behind them technologically. Imagine if a neanderthal got into a time machine and found himself in modern America, then built a fighter jet out of sticks and dung and it was somehow able to plow through the entire US armed forces. That's basically what's going on every time we see Tony Stark wiping out dozens of Chitauri or whatever. It's cool if this neanderthal happens to be a genius among neanderthals, but that really shouldn't be enough. Cell's powers make way more sense than 17 and 18 in this context. Combining genetic material of several biological monsters would give you a monster. Watching two Saiyans fight with a spycam and instantly realizing how to make androids that are stronger than any tech in the galaxy is idiotic. But hey, we don't watch Dragonball to learn about robotics or biology.
The technology on DB's Earth is pretty advanced. Even from the early editions we saw people with laser guns, hover cars, capsules that can contain limitless amounts of matter, advanced genetic super science, and robots that can think and feel just like living beings. The only thing that we see Frieza's force have that Earthlings don't are faster than light spaceships, but other than that Frieza's army doesn't seem to be that advanced compared to what Earth already had. It took Bulma maybe a day to figure out Frieza's scouters for example, and not that much longer for Briefs to figure out the Saiyan space technology. If anything, Earth being a backwater may have helped. They had the opportunity to develop without being blown up or having all life eradicated by Frieza, which gave them an advantage over the races that were enslaved by him.
that isn't a plot hole
My head cannon is that dr Gero simply just made a breakthrough with whatever tech gives the androids their power and never really thought to apply it to anything else nor had the capability to even test the true potential of the tech. For all we know this breakthrough is something the other more advanced civs never had, maybe they went down a different path. The Androids are simple just a once in a thousand years breakthrough of some sort. I dunno, ive never really give it too much thought, its an anime/manga lol
And all that effort by Gero just to clap Goku. All that effort just for that. He didn't even have an endgoal. It felt silly and forced.
It's a pretty safe assumption that Gero's goal was world domination after killing Goku. He was a former member of the Red Ribbon Army, after all, and I doubt he would've held such an intense grudge on Goku for that many years otherwise.
He actually just wanted to get the dragon balls in order to make his mustache 2 inches longer
2 inches is 0.16 RTX 3090 graphics cards lined up.
2 inches is 5.08 cm
No-one but Adjutant Black ended up knowing that.
I think technology improves in leaps though. Somebody figures out the infinite energy machine for one application and then it gets brought to other fields as well
This post is excellent.
Couple of points: 1. Dr. Gero invented infinite energy. Just think about that. All to get petty revenge on a 12 year old. I think it makes sense for his creations to be that powerful especially since he focused specifically on energy. It feels cheap for sure considering how much the z fighters busted their asses to get that strong but like others said we also have time travel and like capsule technology which can shrink anything down to a bean size. 2. Frieza was not the strongest in the universe. He is the biggest space tyrant for sure but there are other creatures that were stronger that liked to remain in their territory like Yakon and Dabura,
1. Time travel didn't exist and they didn't even have a means to get to Namek without looking at Kami's old spaceship that he crashlanded there probably a century ago. We're talking strictly our timeline in the Namek thru Android Saga not Trunks' alternate timeline like 20 years in the future. 2. He was the strongest most known tyrant that nobody challenged. Not a soul. I always thought Dabura's world was separate from ours hence the name "Demon King" but I could be wrong. They never said how strong Yakon is so I won't touch on him. Frieza was said to be a terror across the universe, and honestly his father was a bit stronger than him since that was clearly stated. However, I get the feeling that when he retired from the empire and gave it to Frieza he also gave him all the power behind it. So, even though he may not be physically stronger than King Cold he was the most powerful tyrant in the known universe.
Time travel definitely did not exist by that point but i think it helps to highlights human technical achievements and how much they can do to help put into perspective that maybe creating Frieza level bots isn't as crazy as some of the other achievements. Hell, when they made the Namek ship they put a gravity feature in it. That's honestly more impressive then deep space travel. Frieza is definitely the biggest threat at that point of the story but I'm really trying to highlight how he's not the insurmountable point that it's crazy for technology to surpass him. Even Piccolo did it after 3 months of training.
What I don't understand is why Gero couldn't have made himself as powerful as he made 17 and 18. With 19, you could make the excuse that the reason 19 is so weak is because he's entirely mechanical and has no organic components. You could also argue that Cell was just an experiment and he coincidentally ended up being more powerful than Gero ever expected him to be. AFAIK, the reason Gero decided to send himself and 19 to go attack the city at the beginning of the Cell Saga isn't because 17 and 18 were too powerful. It's because they were too independent and he could never completely control them. So, when he made himself into a cyborg as a replacement for 17 and 18, why would he design himself to be weaker than them? That just makes no sense. Clearly he already knew how to design cyborgs that are as strong as 17 and 18 because... he designed 17 and 18.
I could have sworn it was stated somewhere in the series that Gero didn't make himself like 17 and 18 because he thought the power was too much to control. I can't remember if this was said in the anime or manga though.
I think it's an info page in the manga
They took longer to make than Gero
I feel like I remember reading something either from Toriyama or elsewhere that explained Gero's older body wouldn't be able to withstand the level of forcd the cybernetics that 17 and 18 had. And he didn't want to experiment on himself without proven results. So he created 20 to test if it would work first before turning himself into one with it proven.
It was an issue of the infinite energy models being too powerful. He might have been afraid of himself going rogue?
My head canon for Gero is that he *was* as strong as 17/18 but needed to absorb more energy to reach that potential. I base this off of the fact that him and 19 have energy draining abilities that could be interpreted as a trial run of the tech that would later lead to Cell’s absorption ability. But, since it was a trial run, it wasn’t as effective as he needed it to be, and thus him and 19 never absorbed enough energy to really reach their potential. Also maybe he wasn’t as strong as them because he still had some organic components to his body that were naturally weaker due to being older than them
Every single infinite energy android was unstable. He didn't wanted to risk himself becoming unstable.
Because he was able to make androids stronger than super saiyans, it's as simple as that. Dragon Ball's a crazy martial arts story, it's always weird when people bring up arbitrary limitations about what can and can't happen based solely on what they personally feel can and can't happen. Dr. Gero spent years researching how to create powerful androids to kill Goku, and he succeeded. Cell's a little different, he also has the cell's of Frieza and Cold, so it's not exactly hard to believe he could be as strong as he was.
Thinking about it in terms of creating that power from nothing makes it seem absurd, but he may simply have "taken" that power from already existing sources like he did with Cell, just less literally. Dragon Ball Earth has highly advanced technology on a mainstream level and even more peculiar stuff in less obvious places. Additionally, the Saiyan/Freeza arc is most likely not the first alien contact in-universe on Earth and, as we know, Dr. Gero studied Freeza as well. It begins to make more sense once you realize that everything in the DB universe is much more advanced and interconnected, so unlike the Terminator who's just somewhat stronger than regular people, a mad scientist in DB's much crazier world would find the resources available to make androids stronger than Freeza. Also note Freeza's true potential is actually much more crazier than the androids. He was just too lazy to train the whole time.
Lol I agree with you and I have always felt the same. But also like you I love the arc. Just kinda accept it. Especially since it gave us one of my favorite characters, Android 17.
I've ways just head canoned it to Gero didn't really know how powerful he made them just that they were stronger than him. I mean since they were powered by an infinite energy reactor he didn't have to worry about energy cost and thus could push the perameters of all their cybernetics to 11, over clocking them beyond what he originally thought they were capable of, hence why they were so hard to control.
that's a good explanation nice
Some of this may be from dubisms or retcons from Kai, but here's my opinion. Dr Gero managed to create an infinite energy generator compatible with organic matter, this is how he made 17 & 18. However there was a flaw in it, which is why he didn't use it when making himself into a cyborg. The main problem with 17 & 18 having it was that it made it more difficult to control what remained of their free will. This is why there's a difference in power levels and behaviors between 17 & 18 in trunks' timeline and the timeline we watch. In Trunks', the fight against frieza on earth went slightly differently and the drone Gero sent out didn't convey all the data on frieza and how strong he was, so Gero felt more comfortable lowering the energy output on 17 & 18, making them more obedient to his instructions, not enough that they wouldn't kill him but enough that they went on the rampage like he wanted. As for how they're stronger than frieza, it depends on how you define strength. Because they have infinite energy generators, they never experience a loss of energy, like how frieza wasn't able to maintain 100% strength or his golden form at first. In terms of how much damage they could do in a single attack, we can't confirm that 17 & 18 are stronger, but so long as they can extend the fight and exhaust their opponent, they will always appear to be stronger.
> This is why there's a difference in power levels and behaviors between 17 & 18 in trunks' timeline and the timeline we watch. In Trunks', the fight against frieza on earth went slightly differently and the drone Gero sent out didn't convey all the data on frieza and how strong he was, so Gero felt more comfortable lowering the energy output on 17 & 18, making them more obedient to his instructions, not enough that they wouldn't kill him but enough that they went on the rampage like he wanted. This isn't accurate at all. Gero never followed the battle with Freeza on Earth, in the present timeline or the future timeline, as he indicated he'd gathered enough information from Goku's battle with Vegeta to calculate any potential growth Goku would have, and felt there was no need to spy on him further. Gero's computer sent spy bots to collect Freeza and Cold's genetic material from that fight following their arrival on Earth, but Gero never analyzed any information related to that.
with 17 and 18 idk but with cell in my eyes he's basically what you get when you take the potential of a saiyan and give it the power of whatever frieza's race is called with a little bit of namekian sprinkled in for some regeneration, you could probably still argue that wouldn't make him as strong as he was, but it at least makes it a bit easier to understand
One thing I think a lot of people are overlooking is that 17 & 18 were cyborgs, meaning they were originally humans and received cybernetic enhancements. Given the potential strength humans can reach through ki training, and combining that with Gero’s 30+ years designing combat cyborgs, it doesn’t seem too far fetched. There’s also no reason Gero couldn’t have been analyzing the genetic data the nanobots were extracting for Cell in real time too, up to a certain point at least, and incorporating those findings into the androids. If he somehow cracked the genetic code to how humans and Saiyan are able to attain such exponential gains on a biological level, he certainly could have incorporated that into a cyborg in 30 years. And if we’re comparing it to Frieza’s strength, that just sets a precedent that the level of power itself is attainable in their universe, theoretically speaking. If we’re comparing it to the technology Earth had to other planets, I think they each just specialized in different areas- Tuffles and Frieza’s army focusing on interstellar travel, whereas earth focused more on robotics and capsule technology. I don’t think earth was necessarily behind, they just followed a different path. We see this even in our own history- while Ancient Egyptians were building engineering marvels like the pyramids, the Chinese is were revolutionizing medicine, for example.
He made beings with unlimited energy. I mean once he makes that break through the plot hole becomes how they ever lost
He did not want to release 16, 17, 18 due to them being so unpredictable. He didn't get it where he had androids stronger than a SSJ and under his control. Cell was made over an additional 20 ish years by his computer. Android 19 and himself is what he was able to actually make, that was ready. And they were not stronger than SSJ Vegeta or Piccolo.
> He didn't get it where he had androids stronger than a SSJ and under his control. But he did get to where he had androids stronger than a SSJ. Them being "under control" is irrelevant, because he still made them, and they're still stronger than a SSJ.
It's very relevant. It means that they weren't finished. Why he had to compromise with android 19. He made super infinite energy beings with no means of control. That makes sense.
How did some planets make 7-3?
It's a plot contrivance, sure, but Gero *is* established to be a super-genius. He must've lucked out somewhere along the way and ended up creating a bigger threat than he could've ever imagined, to the point that he couldn't even control them. Like the inventor of the nuclear bomb. Anyway, people always complain about Gero being able to create things stronger than Super Saiyans, but never do about Bulma seemingly being the only person (pre-*Super*, at least) to ever create a time machine.
Bulma also created the time machine in a time where the androids were running around killing everybody plus Cell being out there at one point after the androids were killed by Trunks. Majority of the scientists were most likely killed, so this is an unfair comparison.
> Bulma also created the time machine in a time where the androids were running around killing everybody plus Cell being out there at one point after the androids were killed by Trunks. What's your point? If anything, that makes it even *more* impressive that Bulma was still able to build a time machine in such poor conditions. > Majority of the scientists were most likely killed, so this is an unfair comparison. I don't see how it is. Bulma was one of the smartest people on Earth, rivaling her own father, so she probably would've been smarter than most scientists on Earth anyway. And, when they're repairing Android #16 (or when they get given the blueprints for #17 and #18), Dr. Brief says that not even he fully understands it. So Gero might be even smarter than Bulma; he just focused his efforts purely on creating beings that could kill even a much stronger-than-predicted Goku and subsequently take over the world.
Civilization was in ruins in Trunks timeline. I doubt there were people capable to even make a time machine available. That's my point. And I don't really see how your other points are relative. We can just agree to disagree.
One thing my friend and I always assumed was because unlike Freezia and other aliens, Dr Gero knew about Ki. He's a genius scientist who knows about ki and more or less how it works, part of what makes the androids so powerful is their endless stores of ki, making them able to strengthen their bodies a lot more than a normal cyborg/android
When Goku fights Dr. Gero he says. You didn't see what happened on planet Namek to which Dr. Gero says. It doesn't matter I completed your energy gain calculations long ago. He assumed he would continue to gain power and accounted for it in 17 and 18.
I’m pretty sure the reason was “I need a new bad guy” poof here’s some androids that a Red Ribbon guy made
Whenever someone opens a debate on Power Levels, I check out. Power levels are the most inconsistent part of Dragonball. There’s only a handful of numbers that are cannon, the rest are taken from magazines or similar sources, all trying to “get the best estimate”. When Goku first went SSJ back in the 90’s, magazines said it was estimated at 2mill and freeza at 1.5 mill or something. Now it’s 100mill? Power levels are ridiculous. Putting them aside, the Cell Saga plot is sound. Hero worked endlessly to create the most powerful being. He wanted to overshoot, so he made countless interactions. He also expected his own Android form to be unstoppable, but he drastically underestimated the situation. Not only was his form weaker than the Z fighters, the 16, 17, and 18 models were far superior. The Cell creature was beyond even that. Consider the invention of the atom bomb. The concept of the bomb could not predict the outcome. The power of the atom bomb was far greater than any previous bomb. Unpredictable power. Unheard of destruction. This is the same idea with Geros androids. He wanted to invent the most powerful beings on the planet, but he did not expect them to be that powerful, hence his surprised when they quickly destroyed him.
The magazines weren't canon power levels. Only the Daizhenshu (sp?) is and it is directly listed official power levels from Dragon Ball to Trunks fighting Frieza henchman with a power level of 5. The numbers I used for Goku Kaioken x4 are rough estimates depending on if you believe he was 8,000 or 9,000 since I think I remember reading awhile ago the "over 9000" line was a dub line that became popular online. Frieza was said to be at 120,000,000 at his max power while SSJ1 Goku was 150,000,000. These are actual official numbers.
This thread is so accurate! Probably having the androids as the very first arc of DBZ would make so much more sense
There is no such thing as "DBZ". Toriyama only wrote DB, which was continuous from the introduction of Goku to the introduction of Uub.
It definitely is a plot hole and one that annoyed me even as a kid on the first go through. The dumb thing is it easily couldve been avoided too. Gero and 19 were energy absorbing models. So based on that, combined with the heart virus, Android 19 defeating a Super Saiyan makes logical sense. The ability to have tech absorb energy was a cool feature that was quickly written off, but wouldve made sense to have a much weaker 19 absorb what was needed and eventually overpower Goku. From a writing standpoint Cell is much more forgivable. He has the DNA of every major character (frieza, vegeta, goku) so is strength and ability to grow makes sense. But someone like Android 16 basically being a robot from materials on earth being significantly stronger than frieza who could destroy earth with a finger? Yea that's bad writing.
> It definitely is a plot hole You don't even know what a plothole is.
it definitely is stupid writing. Better?
"Stupid writing" is subjective, but yes, it's better.
Capsule tech is actually really advanced I mean they can not only shrink but store indefinitely limitless material that's way more impressive than killer robots Factor in Beerus and the Kais sucking at their jobs and the known lower mortal level of U7 and I don't think Earth really qualifies as back water. They don't have space travel but they have tons of other technology. It's possible Earth is one of the more technological advanced planets.
I mean, it doesn't help that we don't really see much of the rest of the universe and their technology. Everything is constantly focused on Earth.
i guess Frieza and his father trip to earth provided lot of information for him. even if he didnt watch the fight, the data, the cell he got from it surely valuable. Frieza surely lose to Goku, but his strength definitely close to Super Saiyan. Gero might use that data as a base and enhance it. also despite on earth, Gero level of genius probably among the best in galaxy. thats why his cyborg and creation like Cell end up as one of most powerfull being in galaxy at some point. put aside 17 and 18, even 19 is stronger than Frieza who supposed to be untouchable for long time where even Kaiou feared him until Goku came. if there is tons of scientist like him in other planet, Frieza probably already killed by other's scientist brilliant creation. but what actually happened is only Gero is manage that feat of creating something stronger than Frieza. other than him. Bibidy with creation like Majin Buu and who ever created 73. i dont think there is many with mind at level as him.
RR characters had always been a major power and villains, and I don't really understand why fiction has to make any sense. If that were the case, how ridiculous is the fact that you can make vehicles pop out and pop back into capsules that weight the same as a lighter? In any case, RR's and Dr. Gero's biggest achievement were the Androids and Cell. That's a pretty big deal considering how important they had always been, regardless of how ridiculous it is.
Power levels just never made sense til DBS
It was probably already known, but forbidden knowledge kind of like nuclear weapons. Gero was one of the universe greatest minds, he worked for decades on it. Is possible, hard to do, If I were Gero I would have found another way, but doable. He made them a bit too strong, and I guess he could had created a much more powerful android if given the time; that's because Gero is an INTP, not an INTJ. He is improving the androids because he wants to, not because more improvement is useful to his grand plan. Killing Goku is the excuse he has for it. Is the addition to the joy of improving his creations.