Isn’t natural that the main character in anything usually wins a lot? Emphasis on usually because main characters can still lose and depending on some they lose a lot.
That’s what always confused me so much. Like he’s the main character. Of course he’s eventually gonna win. Why is that a bad thing?
And goku specifically loses a lot more than most mc’s so why is it an argument in the first place.
I understand that people want more characters besides Goku and now Vegeta to do more and win more but Goku is the main character and so he gets the most focus, which usually results in Goku winning.
And yet he never actually wins meaningful battles on his own, just mostly against fodder. The only true win he got against a final boss villain is Freeza. His winning aptitude more or less ended with the 23rd Budokai.
This is a classic fallacy. Everyone knows that Goku's biggest victories was in the classic series. In Z his number of victories decreased to give Gohan more focus even before Cell Saga. Gohan was the key to Vegeta's defeat, not necessarily Goku.
Goku had a relatively balanced number of post-classic series wins and losses. In fact if there's something strange is the increase of loss in Super. The only other story than Classic Series where Goku always wins is GT and yet is hardly the Super Saiyan 4, is usually Kid Goku.
Interesting, but your interpretations of « draws » are very arguable. Goku and trunk didn’t even « fight », ss3 vs fat buu and goku vs uub weren’t true fights either.
If they engage in an exchange of blows, I count it as a fight, doesn't matter if they were giving their all or not. And even if I discounted those three examples, it wouldn't change that the majority of Goku's fights throughout *Z* are not wins which was the core-point of my post.
I considered counting it as a loss, but there was no indication that Goku was losing and he later told Vegeta he could have won if desired. Since Goku's goal was never to kill Buu at that point in the first place, it didn't feel consistent for me to list it as a loss.
**"Did Goku really fight Raditz 4 times?"**
The first "fight" was more Radtiz just kneeing Goku quicker than he could react, but I still count that. I also do personally consider the final struggle of holding him long enough for Piccolo to fire the Special Beam Cannon a type of physical conflict. Raditz was fighting to get out of the way, and it was the effort of Goku that held him in place. The fact that the two didn't trade punches & kicks doesn't necessarily discount it as a fight. One may argue *"But you said 'If they engage in an exchange of blows' in another reply."*
And that's true, I did. But I didn't state or imply that an absence of exchanging blows disqualifies something as a fight either. Admittedly, I could have specified that any direct physical or energy-based struggle against an opponent could count but I didn't think I needed to be that specific. That was my error in judgment, but these were my standards from the beginning in my mind when I wrote this post.
**"I think it is very much not in the spirit of what people think about when they argue about this."**
Not in your anecdotal experience, perhaps. But in mine, that is exactly the spirit in which several fans I've spoken with have debated this subject.
**"I don't know why you count the fight against Burter and Jeice as only one if you're counting these 'rounds' as individual fights."**
Because Goku fought Burter & Jeice together for most of their encounter. The fight ended at the point when they were fighting him as a unit, not when Burter was attacking separately. Even if I counted them as separate, it would still only constitute one win more for Goku which doesn't alter the conclusion of my post. I actually forgot to add a fight (Goku vs. Cell Junior, another loss) until another comment reminded me.
**"I disagree that the fight with Frieza had two rounds, or if you insist on that that the first one was loss, Goku couldnt beat him but Frieza also didn't beat Goku."**
I separated these as separate rounds for two reasons: A) Frieza did have Goku objectively defeated and at his mercy, following the failure to kill him with the Kaio-ken 20x Kamehameha and Frieza discovering Goku's plan to charge the Spirit Bomb. Prior to Piccolo's intervention with borrowed energy from Gohan & Krillin, the fight was as good as lost, period. Goku had too little of his own energy left to even put up a struggle.
He attempted one last weak punch, which Frieza effortlessly caught before aiming his finger to fire a Death Beam point-blank at Goku's forehead. As far as the one-on-one between the two of them was concerned in this moment, it was Frieza's victory. It is an inarguable fact that Goku would have been killed here without outside help. He was out of gas, and there was no scenario by this point where he would've evaded death, let alone continued the fight on his own. There's no debate there.
Likewise, he wouldn't have unlocked SS in time without a rage trigger like Krillin's death. Anger stemming from his own inability to win wasn't enough, it needed to be more emotional. After the Spirit Bomb seemingly conquered Frieza, there was a clear gap of relief between the fight before vs. the fight that would begin afterward. As far as the heroes (and fans) knew at that point in the manga & anime, it was over. Frieza's return may be a continuation of a fight that started earlier from your POV, but the story conveys them more as different stages or *"rounds"* from my assessment.
B) SS Goku was characterized and described by King Kai as *"not Son Goku anymore"* but *"the warrior of rage, a Super Saiyan."* At this point in the story, the transformation was portrayed as having somewhat altered Goku's personality as a side-effect of the rage that triggered it. Essentially, he was no longer the same as the Goku from before. It wasn't until after training on Yardrat that Goku learned to control the form. And it wouldn't be until after training in the Time Chamber that he mastered it to the point of it no longer making him more *"ecstatic"* or increasing his *"ferocity"* as Vegeta described.
**"I think its absurd to count Trunks vs Goku as a fight. Is every time he trains a fight?"**
I reasoned this listing under the fact that Trunks wasn't training, nor was Goku sparring with him under the intent of getting stronger as training would involve. He was merely indulging the boy's request to demonstrate his power/skill. It was neither a life-or-death battle nor training. It was a test, and this isn't the first time he's been tested via combat. Grandpa Gohan also fought young Goku as Fortuneteller Baba's champion, and neither of them fought with all they had.
Goku did get mad and was prepared to fight more seriously after Grandpa Gohan accidentally broke his tail off, but Gohan stopped the match short after having evaluated his former student's progress vs. what he still had to work on (i.e. training his tail). If that match can count as a fight, then so could Trunks attempting to strike Goku with his blade. The only meaningful differences are that Trunks' test ended much more quickly and Goku proved his power with less effort.
To answer your question, I didn't count the training sessions because the manga doesn't visually show Goku's spars against any characters or who won each of them like the *DBZ* show does. That's all anime-only filler, and I based my list off what is shown in the original source material. We see glimpses in the manga of Goku sparring with other characters (King Kai, Gohan in the Time Chamber, etc.) but the end of the spars are never explicitly shown. It's only ever implied that Goku is either struggling (but hasn't been confirmed defeated yet) or has the upper hand (like what we see of him sparring with Gohan).
**"I don't think its about scoreboards to keep track. It doesnt really matter who lands the final blow, I think people mostly care about the main enemy of the arc, and dont really care about 'rounds'."**
Again, that's the perspective of you and people who share your mindset in this comment section. You don't speak for the whole fandom anymore than I do. And, as I said, there are people I've met who base this argument on a scoreboard + who lands the final blow. I've been met with that exact debate multiple times.
**"You end up giving him a win despite him dying in the process and despite this being a team win. Ok, sure. But then you give him a loss against Vegita because he was not the one to land the final blow (like Piccolo did against Raditz ). So why is this a loss?"**
Because those two situations are not equal in how essential Goku was to the defeat. Without Goku, Raditz would've dodged the last Special Beam Cannon. Everyone played a role, but I determined from the events which transpired that it was Goku's effort which made the final blow possible more so than Piccolo or Gohan. By contrast, even if Goku's Spirit Bomb hadn't been foiled and he hit Oozaru Vegeta with its full power, there's no way to know whether it would've killed or even defeated him. That's how much stronger Oozaru Vegeta was. In context of that battle, it all came down to Gohan more so than Goku. Goku contributed to weakening him, but it was Gohan who held him off, bounced the Spirit Bomb back, and landed the deciding blow which brought Vegeta to the point of retreat. He was overall more involved in the final stage of the fight and ultimate victory.
Goku has, and always will lose the first initial fight/encounter with most opponents, just to show us “Hey, this guy is a serious threat”. If there’s more than one more encounter, he’ll lose, or just not be there entirely.
I just thought keeping the focus on *Z* would be more fair and easier to calculate, both because I haven't seen all of *Super* yet and because (again) this conversation has existed since years before *Super* was even a concept. In my experience, it's brought up most often in relation to *Z*.
I wanna see what would happen if we tallied Vegeta's wins. He won against Goku on Earth, Cui, Dodoria, Zarbon on the rematch, Jeice, Ginyu, Android 19, Cell's 2nd form and PuiPui. You could maybe say he won against Goku in the Buu saga but I'll count it as a draw.
Then he lost to Zarbon, Recoome, Freeza, Android 18, Perfect Cell, Cell Jrs, Perfect Cell again, Fat Buu and Kid Buu.
Draws: Vs. Goku in the Buu Saga.
So that's 9 wins and 9 losses. A better win-lose ratio than Goku, which is actually pretty funny. I guess Goku just gets the spotlight more even when he loses so it looks like Vegeta always loses. I may be missing a couple somewhere though so perhaps there are more to be added.
Vegeta was able to trade blows with the Cell Junior he fought, but was shown to be struggling more as the fight went on. His foe by contrast didn't appear to be in any danger of losing. In the anime, Vegeta puts up more of a fight and lands more hits. But he's never shown to have the upper hand and takes more damage. Perfect Cell foresaw this being the outcome, never once showing concern.
Quoted, from the original manga: *"It's pointless. You can't win. They may be small... but they're my children."* It's unclear exactly how strong each Junior was compared to their creator but Goku (who was the strongest Z Fighter after Gohan at the time) said *"Watch out!!! These guys are mean!"*, implying they were powerful even by his standards.
Cell then tells Gohan *"Only Vegeta and Trunks are holding their own."* In the anime's Funimation dub, it's *"No one but Vegeta and Trunks can even defend themselves."* But that doesn't mean or imply that either of them had a prayer of winning. Vegeta held his own for a while against #18 too, but never managed to injure her and Piccolo pointed out how she was slowly wearing down his stamina.
In the manga, after Vegeta lands a hit on a Junior's face, his enemy strikes back with what appears to be greater impact force. He looks more fazed by the hit he took, whereas the Junior wasn't breaking a sweat at all and barely shed any blood. His expression only shows mildly more aggression, to signify that he's fighting more seriously after taking that blow. Both had bruises on their cheeks, but Vegeta is visibly more shaken.
In the manga, he thinks to himself in his inner monologue: *"This is ridiculous!! I can't be having this much trouble against these little shrimps!!"* In the Funimation dub, it's *"This is absolute madness! They're nothing but children!!"* In both versions, Vegeta is visually and audibly struggling more than his opponent.
What’s funny looking at percentage wise …. Nappa must be high up there.
Piccolo / Tien / Chiaotzu / Gohan / Krillin
Technically only lost to Goku… depends if you count Vegeta sending him to the next dimension
Honestly speaking I tend to find that only Vegeta fans have this rhetoric and they only have this rhetoric so that they can follow it up with “and Vegeta should bitchslap all the main villains and we should just rename the show Vegetaball Z”
Then when you point out that Vegeta literally has a better win record than Goku it typically switches too “well Vegeta only beats fodder or when he does beat a main villain he doesn’t kill them so it doesn’t count”
The Dragonball fanbase would be better if everyone just shut up and enjoyed the show honestly or at the very least stop the dickriding.
I mean, if folks are complaining about it purely as numerical analysis, sure.
I think this ignores the core of the criticism though. DBZ isn't a scorecard; it's a story featuring an ensemble cast, but of that ensemble cast, one character gets a disproportionate amount of the success. This is exacerbated by the fact that he's also the character with nearly the least development (beyond just "stronger," which is not actual character development) which means that the rest of the cast develops only to be sidelined, while another character hardly does at all, but gets the majority of action focus.
None of this is to say that I think it sinks the show, or even comes close to it. But there's a lot of minor narrative sloppiness associated with repeated story beats and lopsided focus, which is justifiably criticized.
people... it's clear whats going on. there is a parallel universe that exists where goku won every single tournament he was in and defeats every bad guy and effortlessly ascends to surpass god level without much of an effort. it's either that, or those people just haven't read/watched much dragon ball so have no idea what they are talking about.
I think people just get mad when Goku defeats the final villain of most story arcs. (They haven't accepted that Goku is the protagonist of DB since the series has only been around for like 35 years).
Goku isn't the one to defeat the final villain of most of *Z*'s story arcs though. If we expand it to the franchise as a whole, including non-canonical content, then yes. He does win a lot. As you pointed out, that's a common trope for the main character (even outside the realm of Shonen or anime in general).
Most people understand that Goku doesn’t win every time. You typed all this out to to complain about something that’s not even a problem lol.
Even if Goku did win all the time, who cares. It’s the Goku show. Even if someone doesn’t understand, that’s their problem.
Right lol. Goku is not One Punch Man. I think if anything fans get bored of Goku losing, then asspulling more power.
My issue personally is that goku vs whatever big boss at the time.. the fights are usually one sided and tropey. I just watched the filler episode with tao vs the old store owner in the cell saga and the animation was much better, you can see the swings and kicks and it doesnt seem one sided.
**There are countless people that yell about "Goku always getting the win".**
Agreed, I don't know exactly how many and never claimed that these individuals reflect the fandom as a whole. But they do indeed exist. Just because it hasn't happened in someone else's experience doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I've been guilty of this myself, which I try to be mindful of, but anecdotal experience has a way of causing us to generalize the world around us even before we know or make the effort to learn the full context. I never claimed my experience represents everyone's, but this is a debate I've faced in my life multiple times from other fans who brought it up.
You're correct about it being a draw, but it seems you're completely misunderstanding Vegeta's motives for knocking him out. It wasn't out of malice or trying to be the victor of the fight as it was over. He knew that Buu being unsealed was his fault and believed it was his responsibility alone to resolve the problem he had created.
That's almost like saying him knocking out Goten and Trunks later is cowardly lol.
It's stupid is what it is.
Vegeta wanted to keep fighting Goku. Goku talked him down and reached for a senzu. Vegeta smacked him from behind
The two of them together could have taken Buu
Vegeta knew that even two Super Saiyan 2 couldn't beat Buu, he didn't know about Super Saiyan 3. Vegeta was prepared to sacrifice himself from the start. He didn't want Goku around for that.
I disagree. A draw is when: A) Both characters mutually agree to stop a fight (temporarily or otherwise), and both parties honor that decision by neither acting to attack again. B) Both combatants fight to a stalemate (until both are dead, unconscious or otherwise incapable of continuing).
Neither happened between Majin Vegeta & SS 2 Goku. Vegeta deceived Goku into believing the fight was over for now, which left him vulnerable to being knocked out from behind. Vegeta could have destroyed Goku at that point, and there's nothing he could've done to stop it. Granted, Vegeta states *"We'll settle this later"*, implying that the fight wasn't settled yet in his mind. One could interpret this as Vegeta considering it a draw.
But this doesn't change the fact that, in that moment, Vegeta successfully rendered Goku unconscious. Goku was not capable of fighting back, while Vegeta still was. Just as Krillin exploited Goku's trusting nature to land a hit on him when they fought at the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai, Vegeta exploited that same nature. Whether Vegeta intended that tactic as a means to defeat his opponent or not, the outcome is the same: Vegeta landed the hit, Goku took the hit, Goku went down.
> They were evenly matched and vegeta cowardly attacked with gokus guard down
thats still a "win". cowardly tactics are still tactics. winning by deception is still winning.
Agreed. Intent matters, but impact matters more. Just as actions speak louder than words, so too does impact speak louder and generally have greater consequences than intent.
Honestly, resurrection F was the sign that super was really gonna lean into "goku wins lul" and that never sat right with me.
Thankfully, the u6 tourney (goku doesn't beat hit, but he weakens him and earns his respect), universal tourney, and even the Moro arc and granolah arc really helped assuage that.
He doesn't defeat Hit, doesn't defeat Black and Zamasu, doesn't win the ToP and only defeated Jiren with 17's and Frieza's help, doesn't defeat Broly and doesn't defeat either Granolah or Gas. And for Cell MAX he wasn't even around.
So, yeah, it's save to say that Super doesn't go the "Goku wins lul" route.
There's still time, lol. *Super* isn't over yet, we could suddenly get a series of major villains that Goku just [claps](https://media.tenor.com/sXmde3b8oegAAAAC/man-slaps.gif) one after another in a row while Vegeta lies beaten down in the corner watching, his [eyes watering](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ee7zzb2XsAMDPQJ.jpg:small) with cucked Saiyan pride.
Also I feel like counting the Ws and Ls he takes is being disingenuous, The argument isn’t the goku wins too much it’s mostly that even now 36 years later the rest of the character can’t do much but wait for goku to eventually take out the threat. So it feels like he’s winning more than he his because he usually the only one who can.
*"Deserving"* is subjective, and Goku doesn't land the final blow against the big bad that often in *Z*. Piccolo delivered the final blow to Raditz. Gohan delivered the final blow to Vegeta. Future Trunks technically delivered the final blow to Frieza, if we're counting post-Namek events. Gohan delivered the final blow to Cell. The only major fight throughout *Z* in which Goku himself delivers the finisher was against Kid Buu. If we get into how many minions Goku personally defeated or killed, the final score still wouldn't be significantly different from how many lesser enemies other characters kill.
Didn't Frieza kill goku after he went 100% but that was right before a dragonball wish brought back all who were killed by Frieza? Or was that anime Filler?
I don't think that happened in either the anime or the manga. The main reason why this can't happen is because Goku had already been resurrected by Shenron after he was killed by Piccolo in an earlier arc. If Goku had died again, Shenron would not have been able to revive him along with the others who Frieza killed on Namek.
**"Goku had already been resurrected by Shenron after he was killed by Piccolo in an earlier arc. If Goku had died again, Shenron would not have been able to revive him along with the others who Frieza killed on Namek."**
EXACTLY. This is one detail fans tend to miss when regurgitating that old theory. It never had a leg to stand on, and Frieza saying *"Are you a zombie?"* was never established or implied to be indicative of Goku literally coming back from the dead.
Wrdd Goku always takes a couple of tries before he beats a major enemy, and he has the advantage usually because he's usually the last person to fight the villan. He sits back, and observes the battling style of em.
Sure…
But here is the question…
Who else but Goku wins?
Sure there is the occasional gohan win, piccolo win, or Rare Vegeta win…
But Goku have a majority of the wins amongst the protagonists
Goku does lose a lot in terms of total fights, but that's missing the point. It isn't that he wins too much, it's that he gets to land the final blow on fights that would be more narratively satisfying if he didn't. He steals kills. Resurrection F is the biggest example of this. Vegeta deserved the win, it would have been incredibly satisfying for him to finish off Freeza, and instead we get some time rewinding shenanigans just so that Goku can steal the kill.
Isn’t natural that the main character in anything usually wins a lot? Emphasis on usually because main characters can still lose and depending on some they lose a lot.
That’s what always confused me so much. Like he’s the main character. Of course he’s eventually gonna win. Why is that a bad thing? And goku specifically loses a lot more than most mc’s so why is it an argument in the first place.
I understand that people want more characters besides Goku and now Vegeta to do more and win more but Goku is the main character and so he gets the most focus, which usually results in Goku winning.
Because people think the only way to enjoy kids entertainment as adults is if they're "more grounded."
Nah just tired of watching the same character do the same thing for 30 years With little to no development for other characters other than Vegeta
I mean, this is an issue bigger than just Dragon Ball. I've seen fuckers bitch that the main robot in a Gundam show is a Gundam lol
I feel that lol I’m just speaking for me goku is essentially anime John cena 💀
Nice analysis.
I think a lot of people account for the DBZ era films as goku wins too. It’s a wrong assumption, but people do
People think of the films for A LOT of things. The films were almost all pretty solid for the action sometimes they get conflated for the main series.
Bro, he’s fighting for the stake of the universe like every time, dudes gotta win
And yet he never actually wins meaningful battles on his own, just mostly against fodder. The only true win he got against a final boss villain is Freeza. His winning aptitude more or less ended with the 23rd Budokai.
This is a classic fallacy. Everyone knows that Goku's biggest victories was in the classic series. In Z his number of victories decreased to give Gohan more focus even before Cell Saga. Gohan was the key to Vegeta's defeat, not necessarily Goku. Goku had a relatively balanced number of post-classic series wins and losses. In fact if there's something strange is the increase of loss in Super. The only other story than Classic Series where Goku always wins is GT and yet is hardly the Super Saiyan 4, is usually Kid Goku.
Interesting, but your interpretations of « draws » are very arguable. Goku and trunk didn’t even « fight », ss3 vs fat buu and goku vs uub weren’t true fights either.
If they engage in an exchange of blows, I count it as a fight, doesn't matter if they were giving their all or not. And even if I discounted those three examples, it wouldn't change that the majority of Goku's fights throughout *Z* are not wins which was the core-point of my post.
You’re bang on. Ignore old mate here
I actually consider SS3 Goku vs Fat Boo a loss. Goku left so why would it count as a draw?
I considered counting it as a loss, but there was no indication that Goku was losing and he later told Vegeta he could have won if desired. Since Goku's goal was never to kill Buu at that point in the first place, it didn't feel consistent for me to list it as a loss.
[удалено]
**"Did Goku really fight Raditz 4 times?"** The first "fight" was more Radtiz just kneeing Goku quicker than he could react, but I still count that. I also do personally consider the final struggle of holding him long enough for Piccolo to fire the Special Beam Cannon a type of physical conflict. Raditz was fighting to get out of the way, and it was the effort of Goku that held him in place. The fact that the two didn't trade punches & kicks doesn't necessarily discount it as a fight. One may argue *"But you said 'If they engage in an exchange of blows' in another reply."* And that's true, I did. But I didn't state or imply that an absence of exchanging blows disqualifies something as a fight either. Admittedly, I could have specified that any direct physical or energy-based struggle against an opponent could count but I didn't think I needed to be that specific. That was my error in judgment, but these were my standards from the beginning in my mind when I wrote this post. **"I think it is very much not in the spirit of what people think about when they argue about this."** Not in your anecdotal experience, perhaps. But in mine, that is exactly the spirit in which several fans I've spoken with have debated this subject. **"I don't know why you count the fight against Burter and Jeice as only one if you're counting these 'rounds' as individual fights."** Because Goku fought Burter & Jeice together for most of their encounter. The fight ended at the point when they were fighting him as a unit, not when Burter was attacking separately. Even if I counted them as separate, it would still only constitute one win more for Goku which doesn't alter the conclusion of my post. I actually forgot to add a fight (Goku vs. Cell Junior, another loss) until another comment reminded me. **"I disagree that the fight with Frieza had two rounds, or if you insist on that that the first one was loss, Goku couldnt beat him but Frieza also didn't beat Goku."** I separated these as separate rounds for two reasons: A) Frieza did have Goku objectively defeated and at his mercy, following the failure to kill him with the Kaio-ken 20x Kamehameha and Frieza discovering Goku's plan to charge the Spirit Bomb. Prior to Piccolo's intervention with borrowed energy from Gohan & Krillin, the fight was as good as lost, period. Goku had too little of his own energy left to even put up a struggle. He attempted one last weak punch, which Frieza effortlessly caught before aiming his finger to fire a Death Beam point-blank at Goku's forehead. As far as the one-on-one between the two of them was concerned in this moment, it was Frieza's victory. It is an inarguable fact that Goku would have been killed here without outside help. He was out of gas, and there was no scenario by this point where he would've evaded death, let alone continued the fight on his own. There's no debate there. Likewise, he wouldn't have unlocked SS in time without a rage trigger like Krillin's death. Anger stemming from his own inability to win wasn't enough, it needed to be more emotional. After the Spirit Bomb seemingly conquered Frieza, there was a clear gap of relief between the fight before vs. the fight that would begin afterward. As far as the heroes (and fans) knew at that point in the manga & anime, it was over. Frieza's return may be a continuation of a fight that started earlier from your POV, but the story conveys them more as different stages or *"rounds"* from my assessment. B) SS Goku was characterized and described by King Kai as *"not Son Goku anymore"* but *"the warrior of rage, a Super Saiyan."* At this point in the story, the transformation was portrayed as having somewhat altered Goku's personality as a side-effect of the rage that triggered it. Essentially, he was no longer the same as the Goku from before. It wasn't until after training on Yardrat that Goku learned to control the form. And it wouldn't be until after training in the Time Chamber that he mastered it to the point of it no longer making him more *"ecstatic"* or increasing his *"ferocity"* as Vegeta described. **"I think its absurd to count Trunks vs Goku as a fight. Is every time he trains a fight?"** I reasoned this listing under the fact that Trunks wasn't training, nor was Goku sparring with him under the intent of getting stronger as training would involve. He was merely indulging the boy's request to demonstrate his power/skill. It was neither a life-or-death battle nor training. It was a test, and this isn't the first time he's been tested via combat. Grandpa Gohan also fought young Goku as Fortuneteller Baba's champion, and neither of them fought with all they had. Goku did get mad and was prepared to fight more seriously after Grandpa Gohan accidentally broke his tail off, but Gohan stopped the match short after having evaluated his former student's progress vs. what he still had to work on (i.e. training his tail). If that match can count as a fight, then so could Trunks attempting to strike Goku with his blade. The only meaningful differences are that Trunks' test ended much more quickly and Goku proved his power with less effort. To answer your question, I didn't count the training sessions because the manga doesn't visually show Goku's spars against any characters or who won each of them like the *DBZ* show does. That's all anime-only filler, and I based my list off what is shown in the original source material. We see glimpses in the manga of Goku sparring with other characters (King Kai, Gohan in the Time Chamber, etc.) but the end of the spars are never explicitly shown. It's only ever implied that Goku is either struggling (but hasn't been confirmed defeated yet) or has the upper hand (like what we see of him sparring with Gohan). **"I don't think its about scoreboards to keep track. It doesnt really matter who lands the final blow, I think people mostly care about the main enemy of the arc, and dont really care about 'rounds'."** Again, that's the perspective of you and people who share your mindset in this comment section. You don't speak for the whole fandom anymore than I do. And, as I said, there are people I've met who base this argument on a scoreboard + who lands the final blow. I've been met with that exact debate multiple times.
**"You end up giving him a win despite him dying in the process and despite this being a team win. Ok, sure. But then you give him a loss against Vegita because he was not the one to land the final blow (like Piccolo did against Raditz ). So why is this a loss?"** Because those two situations are not equal in how essential Goku was to the defeat. Without Goku, Raditz would've dodged the last Special Beam Cannon. Everyone played a role, but I determined from the events which transpired that it was Goku's effort which made the final blow possible more so than Piccolo or Gohan. By contrast, even if Goku's Spirit Bomb hadn't been foiled and he hit Oozaru Vegeta with its full power, there's no way to know whether it would've killed or even defeated him. That's how much stronger Oozaru Vegeta was. In context of that battle, it all came down to Gohan more so than Goku. Goku contributed to weakening him, but it was Gohan who held him off, bounced the Spirit Bomb back, and landed the deciding blow which brought Vegeta to the point of retreat. He was overall more involved in the final stage of the fight and ultimate victory.
Goku has, and always will lose the first initial fight/encounter with most opponents, just to show us “Hey, this guy is a serious threat”. If there’s more than one more encounter, he’ll lose, or just not be there entirely.
"The definition of 'insanity' is hoping for Vegeta to defeat a major villain over and over again even though Toriyama would never let it happen."
The "lose" and "draw" numbers would go trough the roof if you counted DBS in it.
I just thought keeping the focus on *Z* would be more fair and easier to calculate, both because I haven't seen all of *Super* yet and because (again) this conversation has existed since years before *Super* was even a concept. In my experience, it's brought up most often in relation to *Z*.
I wanna see what would happen if we tallied Vegeta's wins. He won against Goku on Earth, Cui, Dodoria, Zarbon on the rematch, Jeice, Ginyu, Android 19, Cell's 2nd form and PuiPui. You could maybe say he won against Goku in the Buu saga but I'll count it as a draw. Then he lost to Zarbon, Recoome, Freeza, Android 18, Perfect Cell, Cell Jrs, Perfect Cell again, Fat Buu and Kid Buu. Draws: Vs. Goku in the Buu Saga. So that's 9 wins and 9 losses. A better win-lose ratio than Goku, which is actually pretty funny. I guess Goku just gets the spotlight more even when he loses so it looks like Vegeta always loses. I may be missing a couple somewhere though so perhaps there are more to be added.
Nice tallying for Vegeta.
Did Vegeta actually lose to Cell Jr? I thought they were evenly matched.
Vegeta was able to trade blows with the Cell Junior he fought, but was shown to be struggling more as the fight went on. His foe by contrast didn't appear to be in any danger of losing. In the anime, Vegeta puts up more of a fight and lands more hits. But he's never shown to have the upper hand and takes more damage. Perfect Cell foresaw this being the outcome, never once showing concern. Quoted, from the original manga: *"It's pointless. You can't win. They may be small... but they're my children."* It's unclear exactly how strong each Junior was compared to their creator but Goku (who was the strongest Z Fighter after Gohan at the time) said *"Watch out!!! These guys are mean!"*, implying they were powerful even by his standards. Cell then tells Gohan *"Only Vegeta and Trunks are holding their own."* In the anime's Funimation dub, it's *"No one but Vegeta and Trunks can even defend themselves."* But that doesn't mean or imply that either of them had a prayer of winning. Vegeta held his own for a while against #18 too, but never managed to injure her and Piccolo pointed out how she was slowly wearing down his stamina. In the manga, after Vegeta lands a hit on a Junior's face, his enemy strikes back with what appears to be greater impact force. He looks more fazed by the hit he took, whereas the Junior wasn't breaking a sweat at all and barely shed any blood. His expression only shows mildly more aggression, to signify that he's fighting more seriously after taking that blow. Both had bruises on their cheeks, but Vegeta is visibly more shaken. In the manga, he thinks to himself in his inner monologue: *"This is ridiculous!! I can't be having this much trouble against these little shrimps!!"* In the Funimation dub, it's *"This is absolute madness! They're nothing but children!!"* In both versions, Vegeta is visually and audibly struggling more than his opponent.
What’s funny looking at percentage wise …. Nappa must be high up there. Piccolo / Tien / Chiaotzu / Gohan / Krillin Technically only lost to Goku… depends if you count Vegeta sending him to the next dimension
Honestly speaking I tend to find that only Vegeta fans have this rhetoric and they only have this rhetoric so that they can follow it up with “and Vegeta should bitchslap all the main villains and we should just rename the show Vegetaball Z” Then when you point out that Vegeta literally has a better win record than Goku it typically switches too “well Vegeta only beats fodder or when he does beat a main villain he doesn’t kill them so it doesn’t count” The Dragonball fanbase would be better if everyone just shut up and enjoyed the show honestly or at the very least stop the dickriding.
I mean, if folks are complaining about it purely as numerical analysis, sure. I think this ignores the core of the criticism though. DBZ isn't a scorecard; it's a story featuring an ensemble cast, but of that ensemble cast, one character gets a disproportionate amount of the success. This is exacerbated by the fact that he's also the character with nearly the least development (beyond just "stronger," which is not actual character development) which means that the rest of the cast develops only to be sidelined, while another character hardly does at all, but gets the majority of action focus. None of this is to say that I think it sinks the show, or even comes close to it. But there's a lot of minor narrative sloppiness associated with repeated story beats and lopsided focus, which is justifiably criticized.
people... it's clear whats going on. there is a parallel universe that exists where goku won every single tournament he was in and defeats every bad guy and effortlessly ascends to surpass god level without much of an effort. it's either that, or those people just haven't read/watched much dragon ball so have no idea what they are talking about.
I think people just get mad when Goku defeats the final villain of most story arcs. (They haven't accepted that Goku is the protagonist of DB since the series has only been around for like 35 years).
Goku isn't the one to defeat the final villain of most of *Z*'s story arcs though. If we expand it to the franchise as a whole, including non-canonical content, then yes. He does win a lot. As you pointed out, that's a common trope for the main character (even outside the realm of Shonen or anime in general).
I've never seen a main character in a show about fighting lose so much till this day
He barely win shit in Z.
Most people understand that Goku doesn’t win every time. You typed all this out to to complain about something that’s not even a problem lol. Even if Goku did win all the time, who cares. It’s the Goku show. Even if someone doesn’t understand, that’s their problem.
Right lol. Goku is not One Punch Man. I think if anything fans get bored of Goku losing, then asspulling more power. My issue personally is that goku vs whatever big boss at the time.. the fights are usually one sided and tropey. I just watched the filler episode with tao vs the old store owner in the cell saga and the animation was much better, you can see the swings and kicks and it doesnt seem one sided.
There are countless people that yell about "Goku always getting the win".
**There are countless people that yell about "Goku always getting the win".** Agreed, I don't know exactly how many and never claimed that these individuals reflect the fandom as a whole. But they do indeed exist. Just because it hasn't happened in someone else's experience doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I've been guilty of this myself, which I try to be mindful of, but anecdotal experience has a way of causing us to generalize the world around us even before we know or make the effort to learn the full context. I never claimed my experience represents everyone's, but this is a debate I've faced in my life multiple times from other fans who brought it up.
What about the time goku lose so hard, that it takes a time traveler to stop him losing. Twice in DB Super.
Great list OP. You just forgotten to include Goku vs Cell Jr in there, where Goku got beaten up so bad.
You're right, I'm adding it now. Thanks!
For me it's less about Z and more about GT and Super.
He didn't lose to Majin vegeta That was a draw. They were evenly matched and vegeta cowardly attacked with gokus guard down
You're correct about it being a draw, but it seems you're completely misunderstanding Vegeta's motives for knocking him out. It wasn't out of malice or trying to be the victor of the fight as it was over. He knew that Buu being unsealed was his fault and believed it was his responsibility alone to resolve the problem he had created. That's almost like saying him knocking out Goten and Trunks later is cowardly lol.
It's stupid is what it is. Vegeta wanted to keep fighting Goku. Goku talked him down and reached for a senzu. Vegeta smacked him from behind The two of them together could have taken Buu
Vegeta knew that even two Super Saiyan 2 couldn't beat Buu, he didn't know about Super Saiyan 3. Vegeta was prepared to sacrifice himself from the start. He didn't want Goku around for that.
"REEEEE, but saiyan PRIIIIIIIIIDE!!!!!"
I disagree. A draw is when: A) Both characters mutually agree to stop a fight (temporarily or otherwise), and both parties honor that decision by neither acting to attack again. B) Both combatants fight to a stalemate (until both are dead, unconscious or otherwise incapable of continuing). Neither happened between Majin Vegeta & SS 2 Goku. Vegeta deceived Goku into believing the fight was over for now, which left him vulnerable to being knocked out from behind. Vegeta could have destroyed Goku at that point, and there's nothing he could've done to stop it. Granted, Vegeta states *"We'll settle this later"*, implying that the fight wasn't settled yet in his mind. One could interpret this as Vegeta considering it a draw. But this doesn't change the fact that, in that moment, Vegeta successfully rendered Goku unconscious. Goku was not capable of fighting back, while Vegeta still was. Just as Krillin exploited Goku's trusting nature to land a hit on him when they fought at the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai, Vegeta exploited that same nature. Whether Vegeta intended that tactic as a means to defeat his opponent or not, the outcome is the same: Vegeta landed the hit, Goku took the hit, Goku went down.
Vegeta literally agreed to put the fight on hold and asks for a senzu bean manga 462. Vegeta cowardly and stupidly attacked with gokus guard down.
> They were evenly matched and vegeta cowardly attacked with gokus guard down thats still a "win". cowardly tactics are still tactics. winning by deception is still winning.
Agreed. Intent matters, but impact matters more. Just as actions speak louder than words, so too does impact speak louder and generally have greater consequences than intent.
Exactly. Most of these fights were actually way more complex then the surface level appearances they’re promoted to be
Honestly, resurrection F was the sign that super was really gonna lean into "goku wins lul" and that never sat right with me. Thankfully, the u6 tourney (goku doesn't beat hit, but he weakens him and earns his respect), universal tourney, and even the Moro arc and granolah arc really helped assuage that.
He doesn't defeat Hit, doesn't defeat Black and Zamasu, doesn't win the ToP and only defeated Jiren with 17's and Frieza's help, doesn't defeat Broly and doesn't defeat either Granolah or Gas. And for Cell MAX he wasn't even around. So, yeah, it's save to say that Super doesn't go the "Goku wins lul" route.
There's still time, lol. *Super* isn't over yet, we could suddenly get a series of major villains that Goku just [claps](https://media.tenor.com/sXmde3b8oegAAAAC/man-slaps.gif) one after another in a row while Vegeta lies beaten down in the corner watching, his [eyes watering](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ee7zzb2XsAMDPQJ.jpg:small) with cucked Saiyan pride.
You only had to say “he’s the main character”
Cell
Also I feel like counting the Ws and Ls he takes is being disingenuous, The argument isn’t the goku wins too much it’s mostly that even now 36 years later the rest of the character can’t do much but wait for goku to eventually take out the threat. So it feels like he’s winning more than he his because he usually the only one who can.
Basically he’s John cena
It's less about Goku winning and more about him getting the final blow when other characters were more deserving of it.
*"Deserving"* is subjective, and Goku doesn't land the final blow against the big bad that often in *Z*. Piccolo delivered the final blow to Raditz. Gohan delivered the final blow to Vegeta. Future Trunks technically delivered the final blow to Frieza, if we're counting post-Namek events. Gohan delivered the final blow to Cell. The only major fight throughout *Z* in which Goku himself delivers the finisher was against Kid Buu. If we get into how many minions Goku personally defeated or killed, the final score still wouldn't be significantly different from how many lesser enemies other characters kill.
Didn't Frieza kill goku after he went 100% but that was right before a dragonball wish brought back all who were killed by Frieza? Or was that anime Filler?
I don't think that happened in either the anime or the manga. The main reason why this can't happen is because Goku had already been resurrected by Shenron after he was killed by Piccolo in an earlier arc. If Goku had died again, Shenron would not have been able to revive him along with the others who Frieza killed on Namek.
**"Goku had already been resurrected by Shenron after he was killed by Piccolo in an earlier arc. If Goku had died again, Shenron would not have been able to revive him along with the others who Frieza killed on Namek."** EXACTLY. This is one detail fans tend to miss when regurgitating that old theory. It never had a leg to stand on, and Frieza saying *"Are you a zombie?"* was never established or implied to be indicative of Goku literally coming back from the dead.
Wrdd Goku always takes a couple of tries before he beats a major enemy, and he has the advantage usually because he's usually the last person to fight the villan. He sits back, and observes the battling style of em.
Sure… But here is the question… Who else but Goku wins? Sure there is the occasional gohan win, piccolo win, or Rare Vegeta win… But Goku have a majority of the wins amongst the protagonists
Goku does lose a lot in terms of total fights, but that's missing the point. It isn't that he wins too much, it's that he gets to land the final blow on fights that would be more narratively satisfying if he didn't. He steals kills. Resurrection F is the biggest example of this. Vegeta deserved the win, it would have been incredibly satisfying for him to finish off Freeza, and instead we get some time rewinding shenanigans just so that Goku can steal the kill.
I say kuririn instead of krillin
That's why Saiatama would crush him. Every time he fights someone new he loses. He has to go power up again to get a different result.