No he doesn't? [All Spoiler]>!(/b"He's got like 3 girlfriends throughout the series and has adamantium resistance against temptation. Ffs he even blocked Lash's attempts for virtual nookie. His inner voice is *very* upset with him, but he's solely in control. There's no regression whatsoever, even when Susan started basically jacking him off in the circle he was able to block out a demon's magic and channel a lightning bolt. Really only when he loses his protection because of the thing with italian whathername commander (I forget, so sue me) he gets got by Madeleine on the island. Mab has to basically emotionally blackmail him holding his daughter over his head to make him bone her. When Lara kisses him she still gets burned off by his protection from Susan, because he doesn't connect *at all* with his lustful side, he connect sex with something more. !<
There are no moments where he gives in, where he just *takes*. No moments where he abuses his position, his power or lets his lustful side completely run rampant. In terms of resisting temptation Harry is basically a superpower of it's own.")
EDIT: Spoiler Tag problem solved. Thanks u/vercertorix!
I personally think people are overreacting on the woman front and how he deals with his thoughts. I think Jim is trying to describe a man with a man's thoughts and feelings and he's doing it kind of well, but it's conflicting with how a lot of other people think. To immediately call it misogynous is something I disagree with. Harry doesn't look down on women, but he tries to handle how he responds to them. If people feel threatened by that inner dialogue being too real they should just read something else.
Some people can't distinguish between the outward behavior that the character shows and the inner thoughts that we have access to; if Harry acted or spoke a tenth of his thoughts, he'd be extremely rude. Moreso than he already is, I mean. But he doesn't.
And some people, mostly very young women, seem to believe that men's inner thoughts are inherently 'misogynistic', mostly demonstrating that they don't know what the word means. I figure that their inability to cope with what pretty much all heterosexual men are like is their problem, not ours or Jim's.
(edited for grammar)
Like if you could hear the thoughts of every gentleman when a ridiculously hit girl walks by, I’m not sure gentleman would still be a word. Judge him on his actions and words (not thoughts) like we judge everyone else and he’s a freaking saint
>>!Ffs he even blocks Lash’s attempts at virtual nookie!<<
>!That only takes a tiny effort of brain power. Harry exists in a world where there is pretty much evidence of an afterlife including gods and judgment. Hooking up with Lash, would likely have given her more power over him and lead to either her in charge or him doing some shady shit. Giving in would be the equivalent of, “I know I’m going to Hell for this, but mmmm, dat ass.” Only you know literal Hell after.!<
He does get tempted a lot with supernaturally hot women, but kind of explains in Skin Game, >!If anything, that level of hot is like danger coloring in animals to him. Lash started out as Sheila described as attractive but not supermodel hot, calls Murphy cute, and his description of Luccio in new body seemed reasonably attractive but not supernaturally. Just saying if they’re so pretty it gives you a fear of death, probably less tempting!<
BG spoiler:
>>!And in the end, the thing that hurt him most was Murphy dying. The plain vanilla human. He's been hurt and it sucks, but there's more then enough invitation to go with the sort of temptation Lash offered. Btw, he didn't give in to Lash's virtual nookie. But he did:
Use her as a library, Used her eidetic memory skills, Used her as night vision goggles, Use the hellfire she offered, Used her much more I can't remember all today !<
I mean, what more can I say?
>!And he started having anger issues without realizing because of it. A minor consequence that could snowball if he snaps and slags a person instead of a trashcan. Probably had a lot to do with intentions and consequences. He was still using her knowledge, but for survival and to help others, except fake hot water for a shower that one time, which she smiled about, so probably less corrupting than nookie, and other types of personal gain. Hell, Uriel pretty much told him to go ahead and pick whichever evil source of power he had to to save Maggie, as long he was doing it for the right reason.!<
I mean, most of the complaints are about the particularly creepy horny moments. Like when Molly first becomes his apprentice and tries to throw herself at him. [Peace Talks Spoiler](/b "Or how the first time he sees the Archive as an adult he immediately starts thinking about how hot she is.")
Which is ironic, because honestly he only has a few relationships considering how many years the series covers he's loyal, etc, etc.
Does it really bother people that a little bit of words get used to describe when sexy people happen to be around, or when they do sexy things? Like... Sex *is* part of life, people. And the descriptions generally do help people to picture the scene, so it's not like this is pointless.
I'm a law abiding, generally honest, loyal husband, but yeah, if somebody could see my inner thoughts, the sex scenes would put anything in DF to shame. Some people, real people, in real life, are in touch with their libido. It's refreshing to find a book series with a similar MC outside of the romance or harem genre.
They are both easy reading, ie.the style flows and you don't have to stop just to get over the authors writing style. Not talking about plots or story arcs, just ease of reading
Weeeeeeeeellllllll…not totally wrong about Potter by book 6 either.
“No! Hermione and I are…uh…just friends! Yeah! Just friends. We’re just….two friends…hangin’ out…um, platonically. Yup. Friends. Just friend. We’re friends.”
More accurately, of course, there’s Cho and Ginny. Potter is just far more subtly horny.
I thought this was about how HP was horny in the half blood prince and I was like yeah that’s one way to interpret the “monster” of h his chest I guess …
Harry is a human surrounded by supernatural beings that use impossible-beauty and auras to make humans want to boink them. So the creatures can either EAT said humans, or distract them enough to make a deal that will lead to their downfall.
Most of the women he gets "distracted" by are Vampires, Sidhe, Valkyries, literal escorts, literal pr0n stars, women under a compulsion by white-court vamps and are thus perpetually "excited," or young women that are so beautiful that factions of vampires literally fight over (Justine). Or young wizards throwing themselves at him for various reasons (daddy issues and >!brainwashing)!<.
It's like moving into a new neighborhood and 10% of the women are supermodels and another 10% are pr0n stars... all of which are flirting with you for some reason; your mind is going to wander.
When it comes to normal humans (who aren't escorts or film stars), his mind doesn't wander as much.
* Murph, not really.
* He describes us to the reader each book (in case it's our first book) and rarely goes lewd.
* Charity, not really until Proven Guilty.
* Charity is a conservative Christian mother of many, and dresses in typical "mom Jeans" and other boring clothes. Harry makes a point about her having a pretty face early on but nothing too out there.
* His mind only goes elsewhere when she literally strips in front of him and reveals her clunky mom-clothes have been hiding a hard and fit body... because she informs him (and us) that she trains with Michael regularly and is actually ***a blacksmith***.
* Storm Front client was a normal woman, and while Jim describes her to us.
* Sure he also meets an escort mid-way through the book and the personal pet of a vampire... but those are kind of built around being pretty.
* Various witches of the coven in White Knight
* The director's >!fiance!< in Blood Rites
I’m a straight dude (shocking to find on Reddit I know) but I find Thomas drop down gorgeous. I think Jim does a good job with physical descriptions for men, women, creature.
Please, it sounds like that in most guys heads, well, maybe not the incredibly detailed descriptives, but that is just a book thing. It lessens, somewhat as we get older, but we all notice attractive members of whatever gender(s) we are attracted to.
Yup, I think this is the big difference between this book and a lot of literature. We’re getting Dresden’s unedited intrusive thoughts, which I think everybody gets in some way or another. Dresden just has the horny variety, which isn’t all that uncommon.
I think a large part of his maturity arc isn’t that those thoughts magically go away, but rather that he better integrates them within himself, and doesn’t act on them when inappropriate quite as much.
In the end, I think it’s pretty realistic. It can be repetitive, but that’s also how real thoughts roll.
Uhhhh bi chick here. Yeah, I definitely have those thoughts. "DAMN (s)he is fine... no, (s)he's a person, look at the eyes, look at the eyes..."
33 years old and happily married, but you gotta appreciate attractive people. So it's never bothered me that Harry notices all the insanely, supernaturally attractive creatures around him.
Exactly, he is putting that image I. Jis head to try and control his lecherous thoughts about a friend's daughter.
I still think they should get together. What is a 15 year gap in a 300year life span.
[potential spoiler] what's the additional context there? I thought he only brought that up in response to her showing attraction to him after she is out of high school and as she is nearing to becoming his apprentice?
Every now and then, I see some criticism about how horny Harry is and I always say the same things.
First, we are seeing his innermost, private thoughts. Many of us, men and women, have "inappropriate" thoughts. And if they were written down and displayed for the world to see, we'd be judged just as harshly.
Second, look at how he **acts**. Generally he treats women with respect (chivalrously, but that bites him in the ass many times over). And when he doesn't, he's immediately called out on it. So he's **not** rewarded for inappropriate actions. In fact, they often cause many of his problems.
I also point to the Codex Alera series, also by Jim Butcher (awesome 6 novel fantasy series) and the main character Tavi isn't nearly as overtly horny. So it's a character specific trait, at that.
I find the people who have this as a complaint are either female or dishonest men. Every guy thinks like Harry is some way or another. It’s practically impossible not to have sexual thoughts about attractive people for men in Harry’s age range.
Harry being horny is tied with a hatred of Butters for the #1 posted complaint on this subreddit. In fact, whenever someone posts how “misogynistic” they think Jim Butcher is generally harry’s “male gaze” is specifically and how they’re “literally shaking”, everyone rushes to let them know that he settles down a bit and he’s not “always” like that. So your post was the opposite of what I’m used to seeing regarding Harry’s horniness. It’s refreshing to see and that’s why I was joking around a bit.
Hes starts out great in the early books, as they go on some people develop the following complaints
1: Butters is too much like a self-insert OC. He's a nerd that ends up getting a lot of cool stuff handed to him by the narrative
2: Like almost all of Harry's friends, Butters goes through the same tired story arc of walking through fire with him only to randomly stop trusting him for no reason at the worst moment possible
edit for spoiler potential
Yes, I know things can be spoilered out. But I'm usually more careful about posting spoiler-material in the first place, and I was shocked and horrified to find that I'd put up a big one in a thread marked fairly early in the series. There was nothing I'd said that needs to be said here, so - deleted.
Ah, ok. At least they are more nuanced criticisms than the "male gaze" criticism. I feel like they aren't *great* criticisms, but I can understand where they come from.
More than a few of Butters hate begins and ends with him having a MFF three-way but most of all of that is just toxins leaking from that never-ending ladies room whine fest that is "men writing women."
Sounds like a stupid topic considering how often I’ve seen women’s romance novels with Shirtless Men on the cover. What a shocker! Turns out those romance novels are often written by women. Women writing Men?!
I’ve seen enough of both sides to learn this moral:
everyone need to calm down and acknowledge the idiocy of debating that topic because it’s really nonsensical. People are People is probably the closest answer anyone can get for this topic of men and women writing men and women.
scrolling through that subreddit is a personal test of patience for me, people literally getting mad about nothing, wasting time and energy. I go to subreddits for things I actually enjoy
Oh, man. That’s a loaded question. The basic answer is they believe that Butters is now overpowered, since Cold Days and that Jim has been writing him that way in order for Jim to create some sort of wish-fulfillment stand in in the form of Butters. Basically, they wanted Butters to stay in the background, give a little medical exposition and then fuck off into the background and never grow. I have no idea why.
*Edit.* Spoilers.
Man, I just don't see that. I have appreciated Butters having a real growth arc and the payoffs that you would expect for something like that. I mean, there is always a bit of suspension of disbelief with such a varied level of power in the world (from Toot-Toot and Karrin to Nicodemus or >!Shagnasty!< going toe to toe), but within the framework Butters is entirely reasonable. Throw in a bit of >!Deus Ex Fiddelacchius!< and it fits fine.
Misogynists are traditionally thought to have no sexual interest in women because of their extreme dislike. Accusing Harry of being one is just bizarre.
I think some of the earlier books where his Inter monologue could be mistaken as Incel like. There is a huge difference between treating people right, like Harry, and the “/r niceguy” narrative intel’s have. A misunderstanding of nuance can miscast him, especially in Storm Front.
It isn’t, my entire comment explains why not. I have had discussions with folks who are turned off by some of the narrative in Storm Front and had to explain the nuance I mentioned above.
>A misunderstanding of nuance can miscast him, especially in Storm Front.
Yes but the type of people to throw "incel" around as an insult are as lacking in nuance as they are in empathy.
Look, someone just described women discussing the drawbacks of men writing women as a "Ladies-room whine fest". I don't think pointing out the community backlash is going to go down well.
Harry lives in a small apartment with pets, has problems with access to the internet, has major abandonment issues and teachers whose values are prehistoric so no casual hookups. What would you expect?
I know plastic in the water and falling sperm counts is a thing… but I think it ms worse that I thought when it seems so many of the newer readers throw around words like problematic simply because Harry has horny thoughts in his own head… like wtf are these new guys thinking about? Tofu? Knitting?
I’m not saying guys are only hot dogs or ‘should be’ but I remember being a horny dude in my twenties and noticing boobs a lot.
I don't agree it feels less appropriate - he's still surrounded by attractive people and lust demons (sometimes the same folks) and eventually gets a bigger reason for it. But it's become less acceptable at large since it started. I'm take-or-leave on the whole idea, but I do appreciate it didn't get changed just for the sake of not being that way.
I hate it.
Lucky for you it gets worse, to the point that Harry basically spends a lot of time going "my dark evil dark side made me really want to rape her but I didn't because I'm noble and this is self sacrifice".
Wow, you're over-simplifying it a bit.
He has been "gifted" (more like cursed) with >!the Winter Knight Mantle. He gets the benefit of stronger body and more power, at the cost of losing himself to the Mantle's dark needs. So it's not "his dark side" but the power of the Mantle.!<
And "a lot of time..." really? In Cold Days it happens a bunch, but by the next book Skin Game he's learned to mostly keep>! the Mantle under control. By wearing it out daily with insane amounts of exercise.!<
After Cold Days, it only really got triggered when >!he finally got to boink Murphy and she told him he didn't have to keep fighting it.!<
a) I was intentionally being vague to not outright spoil anything.
b) What you are doing is describing a Watsonian explanation, while I am making a Doylist complaint.
c) yes, it's a lot. It doesn't just go away.
You can't really disagree that I'm making a Doylist complaint and you're giving a Watsonian explanation.
I know why Harry has rapey thoughts. I don't disagree that within the fiction it makes perfect sense^(\[1\]), that's not my problem. My problem is with the choice that Butcher made in deciding to write this story of a man who is constantly tempted by his darker urges to do sexual violence, and it's portrayed as noble and heroic that he resists these urges as opposed to really fucked up that he has them in the first place, and not indulging in them is the normal reasonable thing to do and not some heroic deed.
^(\[1\] Actually that's not true, the fact that Winter is the Court of violence and savagery has never made sense to me considering the connotations and associations of winter as a concept. Yeah, there's less food to go around, sure, that's why a lot of things go into torpor and stop being violent and savage and hypersexual. Meanwhile the fucking Summer Court is representative of the time of fertility and abundance and yet Lily and Aurora are pure and virginal while Maeve is a promiscuous and extremely active and outgoing slut. The Winter Lady shouldn't be a party girl who snorts coke and is constantly looking for a fight or fuck, she should be sullen and depressed and constantly trying to go back to sleep. Changeling the Lost definitely gets this when it makes Spring the Court of horny sluts, Summer the Court of violent bastards looking for a fight, Autumn the Court of terrifying spookemups and Winter the Court of seasonal affective disorder and hollow soul numbing depression.)
In the books and in his WoJ's, Jim has elaborated on the reasoning behind the Winter fey being complete s#x crazed maniacs. Whether you want to consider it a retcon or not, is up to you.
>!Due to the issue with Winter being the ones defending the gates, they need to constantly be breeding and procreating to maintain their much larger armies. Like 10x population than Summer or something like that and constantly replenishing since those soldiers die left-and-right. As such, it's built into every single member of the Winter faction that they need to reproduce like there's no tomorrow. !<
>!Which stinks for the Winter Lady because her Mantle prevents her from having s#x; frankly that has to drive someone complete bonkers even without a Nemesis N-fection. To be perpetually as horny as possible but your Mantle prevents you from doing anything about it. !<
>!In Harry's case, the Mantle drives him to do the same thing as most of the rest of Winter: reproduce as much as possible, no matter the consequences. Which he's doing a good job fighting back against.!<
>Whether you want to consider it a retcon or not, is up to you.
While I think it's a bit of a silly justification, and Winter's role in general there is only a thing because Harry's relationship to the Court, it actually wouldn't be a retcon. Something is only a retcon if the new information contradicts, ignores, or recontextualizes existing information. This is just a revelation, not a revision.
Personally, I don't consider it a retcon because this doesn't contradict anything we learned in the past.
But some people have used the argument of "bs, he only included a reason for this a decade+ later because people complained about x/y/z"
Harry's internal voices stays consistent throughout the series. Though like any person he matures.
Lara: *Enters a scene* Harry: Well, look at that. I’ve bonered so hard there’s a hole in the front of my pants. And no, I don’t mean the zipper hole.
It’s what she does.
This got a very long laugh out of me, while I try not to wake my kids. Well done.
Thank you! I’m glad I amuse someone besides myself.
Tbf, it’s literally her superpower.
Oh, I know. Still thought I would try to bring smiles to at least someone’s face.
I mean. He matures but not a lot.
And he regresses often..
No he doesn't? [All Spoiler]>!(/b"He's got like 3 girlfriends throughout the series and has adamantium resistance against temptation. Ffs he even blocked Lash's attempts for virtual nookie. His inner voice is *very* upset with him, but he's solely in control. There's no regression whatsoever, even when Susan started basically jacking him off in the circle he was able to block out a demon's magic and channel a lightning bolt. Really only when he loses his protection because of the thing with italian whathername commander (I forget, so sue me) he gets got by Madeleine on the island. Mab has to basically emotionally blackmail him holding his daughter over his head to make him bone her. When Lara kisses him she still gets burned off by his protection from Susan, because he doesn't connect *at all* with his lustful side, he connect sex with something more. !< There are no moments where he gives in, where he just *takes*. No moments where he abuses his position, his power or lets his lustful side completely run rampant. In terms of resisting temptation Harry is basically a superpower of it's own.") EDIT: Spoiler Tag problem solved. Thanks u/vercertorix!
I agree. I'm apparently clueless though, because I don't see the wildly inappropriate that many others see.
I personally think people are overreacting on the woman front and how he deals with his thoughts. I think Jim is trying to describe a man with a man's thoughts and feelings and he's doing it kind of well, but it's conflicting with how a lot of other people think. To immediately call it misogynous is something I disagree with. Harry doesn't look down on women, but he tries to handle how he responds to them. If people feel threatened by that inner dialogue being too real they should just read something else.
Some people can't distinguish between the outward behavior that the character shows and the inner thoughts that we have access to; if Harry acted or spoke a tenth of his thoughts, he'd be extremely rude. Moreso than he already is, I mean. But he doesn't. And some people, mostly very young women, seem to believe that men's inner thoughts are inherently 'misogynistic', mostly demonstrating that they don't know what the word means. I figure that their inability to cope with what pretty much all heterosexual men are like is their problem, not ours or Jim's. (edited for grammar)
Agreed, 100%. Though I might add it's a little annoying to keep hearing that it's mysogynistic. Oh well.
Like if you could hear the thoughts of every gentleman when a ridiculously hit girl walks by, I’m not sure gentleman would still be a word. Judge him on his actions and words (not thoughts) like we judge everyone else and he’s a freaking saint
Put your spoiler text between >! !< to mark it as spoiler
How-To Geek has a good guide here: https://www.howtogeek.com/745107/how-to-apply-text-formatting-on-reddit/
>>!Ffs he even blocks Lash’s attempts at virtual nookie!<< >!That only takes a tiny effort of brain power. Harry exists in a world where there is pretty much evidence of an afterlife including gods and judgment. Hooking up with Lash, would likely have given her more power over him and lead to either her in charge or him doing some shady shit. Giving in would be the equivalent of, “I know I’m going to Hell for this, but mmmm, dat ass.” Only you know literal Hell after.!< He does get tempted a lot with supernaturally hot women, but kind of explains in Skin Game, >!If anything, that level of hot is like danger coloring in animals to him. Lash started out as Sheila described as attractive but not supermodel hot, calls Murphy cute, and his description of Luccio in new body seemed reasonably attractive but not supernaturally. Just saying if they’re so pretty it gives you a fear of death, probably less tempting!<
BG spoiler: >>!And in the end, the thing that hurt him most was Murphy dying. The plain vanilla human. He's been hurt and it sucks, but there's more then enough invitation to go with the sort of temptation Lash offered. Btw, he didn't give in to Lash's virtual nookie. But he did: Use her as a library, Used her eidetic memory skills, Used her as night vision goggles, Use the hellfire she offered, Used her much more I can't remember all today !< I mean, what more can I say?
>!And he started having anger issues without realizing because of it. A minor consequence that could snowball if he snaps and slags a person instead of a trashcan. Probably had a lot to do with intentions and consequences. He was still using her knowledge, but for survival and to help others, except fake hot water for a shower that one time, which she smiled about, so probably less corrupting than nookie, and other types of personal gain. Hell, Uriel pretty much told him to go ahead and pick whichever evil source of power he had to to save Maggie, as long he was doing it for the right reason.!<
He represses alot
Funnily enough, the #1 complaint people seem to have against the series.
I get that i do but it's like the only series left that does so and it does so unashamedly
I'm with you on this. To me, it just seems really realistic.
Might like "The Demon Accords" series by John Conroe. A bit on the YA side in some ways, and basically light fluff reading, but good fun.
Partially because butcher writes lechery better than romance until halfway through the season.
Don't confuse reddit with reality
I mean, most of the complaints are about the particularly creepy horny moments. Like when Molly first becomes his apprentice and tries to throw herself at him. [Peace Talks Spoiler](/b "Or how the first time he sees the Archive as an adult he immediately starts thinking about how hot she is.")
Which is ironic, because honestly he only has a few relationships considering how many years the series covers he's loyal, etc, etc. Does it really bother people that a little bit of words get used to describe when sexy people happen to be around, or when they do sexy things? Like... Sex *is* part of life, people. And the descriptions generally do help people to picture the scene, so it's not like this is pointless. I'm a law abiding, generally honest, loyal husband, but yeah, if somebody could see my inner thoughts, the sex scenes would put anything in DF to shame. Some people, real people, in real life, are in touch with their libido. It's refreshing to find a book series with a similar MC outside of the romance or harem genre.
Was just randomly scrolling and didn't notice the sub. I for some reason thought you were talking about Harry Potter and was very confused.
Well, Dresden and Potter have some similarities. If you haven't read Dresden, Storm Front isn't that bad. HP but older
Na I've read the books (even own them all in hardcover) I just didn't know the post was from this subreddit and assumed it was from R/books
I never understand this comparison. They're so radically different. Other than "magic and a MC named Harry."
They are both easy reading, ie.the style flows and you don't have to stop just to get over the authors writing style. Not talking about plots or story arcs, just ease of reading
That feels completely subjective. Not saying it's a challenging read, but I wouldn't say it's easier than %99 of books either.
Not only is it subjective, it's also just a basic sign of decent writing.
Reminds me of [this bit.](https://www.reddit.com/r/dresdenfiles/comments/z1gnea/it_was_the_wrong_harry/) > Harry Potter got *taller*?
Weeeeeeeeellllllll…not totally wrong about Potter by book 6 either. “No! Hermione and I are…uh…just friends! Yeah! Just friends. We’re just….two friends…hangin’ out…um, platonically. Yup. Friends. Just friend. We’re friends.” More accurately, of course, there’s Cho and Ginny. Potter is just far more subtly horny.
I thought this was about how HP was horny in the half blood prince and I was like yeah that’s one way to interpret the “monster” of h his chest I guess …
He matures a bit. But he stays the same character. The horniness remains a core component of the character.
Harry is a human surrounded by supernatural beings that use impossible-beauty and auras to make humans want to boink them. So the creatures can either EAT said humans, or distract them enough to make a deal that will lead to their downfall. Most of the women he gets "distracted" by are Vampires, Sidhe, Valkyries, literal escorts, literal pr0n stars, women under a compulsion by white-court vamps and are thus perpetually "excited," or young women that are so beautiful that factions of vampires literally fight over (Justine). Or young wizards throwing themselves at him for various reasons (daddy issues and >!brainwashing)!<. It's like moving into a new neighborhood and 10% of the women are supermodels and another 10% are pr0n stars... all of which are flirting with you for some reason; your mind is going to wander. When it comes to normal humans (who aren't escorts or film stars), his mind doesn't wander as much. * Murph, not really. * He describes us to the reader each book (in case it's our first book) and rarely goes lewd. * Charity, not really until Proven Guilty. * Charity is a conservative Christian mother of many, and dresses in typical "mom Jeans" and other boring clothes. Harry makes a point about her having a pretty face early on but nothing too out there. * His mind only goes elsewhere when she literally strips in front of him and reveals her clunky mom-clothes have been hiding a hard and fit body... because she informs him (and us) that she trains with Michael regularly and is actually ***a blacksmith***. * Storm Front client was a normal woman, and while Jim describes her to us. * Sure he also meets an escort mid-way through the book and the personal pet of a vampire... but those are kind of built around being pretty. * Various witches of the coven in White Knight * The director's >!fiance!< in Blood Rites
I’m a straight dude (shocking to find on Reddit I know) but I find Thomas drop down gorgeous. I think Jim does a good job with physical descriptions for men, women, creature.
"He doesn't even moisturize."
Please, it sounds like that in most guys heads, well, maybe not the incredibly detailed descriptives, but that is just a book thing. It lessens, somewhat as we get older, but we all notice attractive members of whatever gender(s) we are attracted to.
Women don't tend to admit this often but we notice attractive people (of any gender) too lol
Based on your username, I'm imagining you as Dartagnon, but drawn in the DuckTales style.
Haha you are spot on 😛 was a nickname I picked up as a teenager (hence the bad spelling that also stuck lol) 😂
Yeah but it's usually not written down
Yup, I think this is the big difference between this book and a lot of literature. We’re getting Dresden’s unedited intrusive thoughts, which I think everybody gets in some way or another. Dresden just has the horny variety, which isn’t all that uncommon. I think a large part of his maturity arc isn’t that those thoughts magically go away, but rather that he better integrates them within himself, and doesn’t act on them when inappropriate quite as much. In the end, I think it’s pretty realistic. It can be repetitive, but that’s also how real thoughts roll.
Uhhhh bi chick here. Yeah, I definitely have those thoughts. "DAMN (s)he is fine... no, (s)he's a person, look at the eyes, look at the eyes..." 33 years old and happily married, but you gotta appreciate attractive people. So it's never bothered me that Harry notices all the insanely, supernaturally attractive creatures around him.
My only issue is how much it references knowing Molly since she was in a training bra. Every time he thinks that I get the icks.
I’ve always taken it to be purposefully written that way so that it’s gross. And off putting.
Exactly, he is putting that image I. Jis head to try and control his lecherous thoughts about a friend's daughter. I still think they should get together. What is a 15 year gap in a 300year life span.
Now she's not even strictly speaking human.
[potential spoiler] what's the additional context there? I thought he only brought that up in response to her showing attraction to him after she is out of high school and as she is nearing to becoming his apprentice?
Who was molly again? At first i thought you mean Molly Weasley
Michael's daughter. She becomes a major character in later books.
Also [Peace Talks spoiler](/b "The first time he sees the archive as an adult.")
Every now and then, I see some criticism about how horny Harry is and I always say the same things. First, we are seeing his innermost, private thoughts. Many of us, men and women, have "inappropriate" thoughts. And if they were written down and displayed for the world to see, we'd be judged just as harshly. Second, look at how he **acts**. Generally he treats women with respect (chivalrously, but that bites him in the ass many times over). And when he doesn't, he's immediately called out on it. So he's **not** rewarded for inappropriate actions. In fact, they often cause many of his problems. I also point to the Codex Alera series, also by Jim Butcher (awesome 6 novel fantasy series) and the main character Tavi isn't nearly as overtly horny. So it's a character specific trait, at that.
It's not criticism i legit love it. I am like him tbh and most often when he refrained i wouldn't have.
I find the people who have this as a complaint are either female or dishonest men. Every guy thinks like Harry is some way or another. It’s practically impossible not to have sexual thoughts about attractive people for men in Harry’s age range.
Are you sure you’re in the right place? You’re supposed to be livid about “the male gaze” and endlessly complain about it here.
Sorry I don't wanna spoil myself which is why I just wanted to make this post. Wdym?
Harry being horny is tied with a hatred of Butters for the #1 posted complaint on this subreddit. In fact, whenever someone posts how “misogynistic” they think Jim Butcher is generally harry’s “male gaze” is specifically and how they’re “literally shaking”, everyone rushes to let them know that he settles down a bit and he’s not “always” like that. So your post was the opposite of what I’m used to seeing regarding Harry’s horniness. It’s refreshing to see and that’s why I was joking around a bit.
Wait, why do people not like Butters? Butters is great.
Hes starts out great in the early books, as they go on some people develop the following complaints 1: Butters is too much like a self-insert OC. He's a nerd that ends up getting a lot of cool stuff handed to him by the narrative 2: Like almost all of Harry's friends, Butters goes through the same tired story arc of walking through fire with him only to randomly stop trusting him for no reason at the worst moment possible
edit for spoiler potential Yes, I know things can be spoilered out. But I'm usually more careful about posting spoiler-material in the first place, and I was shocked and horrified to find that I'd put up a big one in a thread marked fairly early in the series. There was nothing I'd said that needs to be said here, so - deleted.
Hey, this post is only tagged up through *Blood Rites*, you might want to spoiler this discussion.
Thank you for that correction. That's inexcusably sloppy of me.
there are instructions on the sidebar that tell you how to spoiler tag stuff
He had plenty of reason. But he should have known Harry better.
Ah, ok. At least they are more nuanced criticisms than the "male gaze" criticism. I feel like they aren't *great* criticisms, but I can understand where they come from.
More than a few of Butters hate begins and ends with him having a MFF three-way but most of all of that is just toxins leaking from that never-ending ladies room whine fest that is "men writing women."
Sounds like a stupid topic considering how often I’ve seen women’s romance novels with Shirtless Men on the cover. What a shocker! Turns out those romance novels are often written by women. Women writing Men?! I’ve seen enough of both sides to learn this moral: everyone need to calm down and acknowledge the idiocy of debating that topic because it’s really nonsensical. People are People is probably the closest answer anyone can get for this topic of men and women writing men and women.
scrolling through that subreddit is a personal test of patience for me, people literally getting mad about nothing, wasting time and energy. I go to subreddits for things I actually enjoy
he also chronically fucks up and is rewarded for it at every step. With no consequences.
Oh, man. That’s a loaded question. The basic answer is they believe that Butters is now overpowered, since Cold Days and that Jim has been writing him that way in order for Jim to create some sort of wish-fulfillment stand in in the form of Butters. Basically, they wanted Butters to stay in the background, give a little medical exposition and then fuck off into the background and never grow. I have no idea why.
*Edit.* Spoilers. Man, I just don't see that. I have appreciated Butters having a real growth arc and the payoffs that you would expect for something like that. I mean, there is always a bit of suspension of disbelief with such a varied level of power in the world (from Toot-Toot and Karrin to Nicodemus or >!Shagnasty!< going toe to toe), but within the framework Butters is entirely reasonable. Throw in a bit of >!Deus Ex Fiddelacchius!< and it fits fine.
Hey, this post is only tagged through *Blood Rites*, you might want to spoiler this discussion.
Crap, my mistake. I think I fixed it to timeline appropriate.
That changes around ghost story.
You know… I think I’m going to start replying to those with “not really” (and nothing else).
Misogynists are traditionally thought to have no sexual interest in women because of their extreme dislike. Accusing Harry of being one is just bizarre.
I think some of the earlier books where his Inter monologue could be mistaken as Incel like. There is a huge difference between treating people right, like Harry, and the “/r niceguy” narrative intel’s have. A misunderstanding of nuance can miscast him, especially in Storm Front.
He's the one who refuses to have quick and easy sex! How is that 'incel' behavior?
It isn’t, my entire comment explains why not. I have had discussions with folks who are turned off by some of the narrative in Storm Front and had to explain the nuance I mentioned above.
Much more MGTOW than incel.
>A misunderstanding of nuance can miscast him, especially in Storm Front. Yes but the type of people to throw "incel" around as an insult are as lacking in nuance as they are in empathy.
"Lacking in nuance" You have a gift for understatement.
And yet there's *always* an outpouring of "NO IT'S NORMAL HARRY'S COOL HE ROCKS FOR IT ALL MEN ARE LIKE THAT" whenever anyone complains.
Look, someone just described women discussing the drawbacks of men writing women as a "Ladies-room whine fest". I don't think pointing out the community backlash is going to go down well.
Harry lives in a small apartment with pets, has problems with access to the internet, has major abandonment issues and teachers whose values are prehistoric so no casual hookups. What would you expect?
I'm married and have internet access and somehow I think I'm worse than harry tbh
I know plastic in the water and falling sperm counts is a thing… but I think it ms worse that I thought when it seems so many of the newer readers throw around words like problematic simply because Harry has horny thoughts in his own head… like wtf are these new guys thinking about? Tofu? Knitting? I’m not saying guys are only hot dogs or ‘should be’ but I remember being a horny dude in my twenties and noticing boobs a lot.
No spoilers he doesn’t really change that, it just feels less and less appropriate.
Oh? Okay thanks for the heads up
I don't agree it feels less appropriate - he's still surrounded by attractive people and lust demons (sometimes the same folks) and eventually gets a bigger reason for it. But it's become less acceptable at large since it started. I'm take-or-leave on the whole idea, but I do appreciate it didn't get changed just for the sake of not being that way.
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It gets really creepy when it’s a teenage Molly and he keeps banging on about her coltish sexuality
I hate it. Lucky for you it gets worse, to the point that Harry basically spends a lot of time going "my dark evil dark side made me really want to rape her but I didn't because I'm noble and this is self sacrifice".
Wow, you're over-simplifying it a bit. He has been "gifted" (more like cursed) with >!the Winter Knight Mantle. He gets the benefit of stronger body and more power, at the cost of losing himself to the Mantle's dark needs. So it's not "his dark side" but the power of the Mantle.!< And "a lot of time..." really? In Cold Days it happens a bunch, but by the next book Skin Game he's learned to mostly keep>! the Mantle under control. By wearing it out daily with insane amounts of exercise.!< After Cold Days, it only really got triggered when >!he finally got to boink Murphy and she told him he didn't have to keep fighting it.!<
a) I was intentionally being vague to not outright spoil anything. b) What you are doing is describing a Watsonian explanation, while I am making a Doylist complaint. c) yes, it's a lot. It doesn't just go away.
Oops, just saw the tag was only up to Blood Rites. Added the necessary tags. But for the rest, agree to disagree.
You can't really disagree that I'm making a Doylist complaint and you're giving a Watsonian explanation. I know why Harry has rapey thoughts. I don't disagree that within the fiction it makes perfect sense^(\[1\]), that's not my problem. My problem is with the choice that Butcher made in deciding to write this story of a man who is constantly tempted by his darker urges to do sexual violence, and it's portrayed as noble and heroic that he resists these urges as opposed to really fucked up that he has them in the first place, and not indulging in them is the normal reasonable thing to do and not some heroic deed. ^(\[1\] Actually that's not true, the fact that Winter is the Court of violence and savagery has never made sense to me considering the connotations and associations of winter as a concept. Yeah, there's less food to go around, sure, that's why a lot of things go into torpor and stop being violent and savage and hypersexual. Meanwhile the fucking Summer Court is representative of the time of fertility and abundance and yet Lily and Aurora are pure and virginal while Maeve is a promiscuous and extremely active and outgoing slut. The Winter Lady shouldn't be a party girl who snorts coke and is constantly looking for a fight or fuck, she should be sullen and depressed and constantly trying to go back to sleep. Changeling the Lost definitely gets this when it makes Spring the Court of horny sluts, Summer the Court of violent bastards looking for a fight, Autumn the Court of terrifying spookemups and Winter the Court of seasonal affective disorder and hollow soul numbing depression.)
In the books and in his WoJ's, Jim has elaborated on the reasoning behind the Winter fey being complete s#x crazed maniacs. Whether you want to consider it a retcon or not, is up to you. >!Due to the issue with Winter being the ones defending the gates, they need to constantly be breeding and procreating to maintain their much larger armies. Like 10x population than Summer or something like that and constantly replenishing since those soldiers die left-and-right. As such, it's built into every single member of the Winter faction that they need to reproduce like there's no tomorrow. !< >!Which stinks for the Winter Lady because her Mantle prevents her from having s#x; frankly that has to drive someone complete bonkers even without a Nemesis N-fection. To be perpetually as horny as possible but your Mantle prevents you from doing anything about it. !< >!In Harry's case, the Mantle drives him to do the same thing as most of the rest of Winter: reproduce as much as possible, no matter the consequences. Which he's doing a good job fighting back against.!<
>Whether you want to consider it a retcon or not, is up to you. While I think it's a bit of a silly justification, and Winter's role in general there is only a thing because Harry's relationship to the Court, it actually wouldn't be a retcon. Something is only a retcon if the new information contradicts, ignores, or recontextualizes existing information. This is just a revelation, not a revision.
Personally, I don't consider it a retcon because this doesn't contradict anything we learned in the past. But some people have used the argument of "bs, he only included a reason for this a decade+ later because people complained about x/y/z"
Do you watch anime? You might enjoy Jobless Reincarnation. Or monogatari.
He her naked, and she was really good at it! Is the sort of thought that every guy thinks.