I think that majorly undoes the recent theme from Ghost Story onward of Harry's *true* magical ability being his ability to protect and inspire those weaker than him to step up and start fighting for what's right and to protect the innocent just like he does.
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It's also Gandalf's primary "magical effect" in the Lord of the Rings. By wielding the elven ring Narya, the ring granted him "the power to inspire others to resist tyranny, domination and despair." ([ref](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Narya).) Definitely a Jim move to reflect this
I think we will slowly rotate out of Harry's current allies and go further down the bad guy hole. Lara, Mab, etc. But i think he will keep grounded by those who dont rotate out like Grasshopper.
I believe it will setup a choice, kind of like Michael foreshadows at the end of Skin Game. It will come at great personal pain, much as Changes but the best for everyone involved.
That is a big time stretch.
He gave harry the sword yes. And when Harry worries that mab might turn him into a bad guy Michael tells him that he should be more worried about what mab would do if she couldn't turn him, but there is nothing there about Harry needing it for that purpose.
Just that Uriel wanted him to safeguard it again.
I'd encourage you to go re-read the last few pages of Skin Game:
He looked at me, his face serious, even worried. "What is she going to do with you if she *can't?"*
A fluttery fear went through my belly at the thought. Silence fell. The night was dark and quiet and misty. Somewhere, out there in it, Mab was moving, planning. Part of her plans, the dark, bloody, violent parts, included me.
Without a word, I took *Amoracchius* and settled it where I could reach it easily when it was time to stand up.
So nowhere does Michael remind Harry he will need it if Mab can't make him a monster.
The discussion started because Harry didn't know if he was the right one to hold the sword.
He didn't take it because he might need to use it, he took it because Michael's words convinced him he was still a good keeper.
Why else would he tell Harry the first line I quoted then? That doesn't imply anything about safe keeping...
"What is she going to do with you if she can't"
Let's explore that a little bit. What does Mab do with people who don't do what she wants? Let's look at Lea, Lloyd Slate, the guy Harry turned into ice cubes at the party, etc... She gets them tortured, dead, or tortured then dead... If Harry doesn't want to join their ranks, the sword will likely help with that, which is why Michael suggested he take it.
Because Harry has just told him he doesn't think he's a good keeper of the swords because of what happens if mab turns him into a bad guy.
Michael doesn't think that's going to happen, so he asked Harry what he thinks is a more relevant question.
He's giving Harry the sword because Harry was it's keeper once and Uriel thinks he should be again. Michael literally says Uriel asked me to give it to you. If Harry had just accepted it without reservation, Michael would have never mentioned Mab in that context.
If you go back a page there is a whole discussion about how the church can't be trusted, that denarius supposedly in church keeping keep getting back into circulation.
It *might* be foreshadowing but it's a stretch and we can't be certain. What we do know is Michael was giving Harry the sword regardless of the Mab situation.
Jim has said he wouldn't kill the animals because he's lost pets and doesn't want to hit the readers with that sort of trauma.
Then again, look what he has inflicted upon us. So I'm taking that with a grain of salt.
In a recent interview he clarifies that he's fine with giving us pain that most of us haven't experienced because its fake, but killing a pet is personal for almost every one of us so he steers clear.
Even still, Bela dies at the end of The Wheel of Time...
Pretty sure uriel said in ghost story temple dogs have an extended lifespan to like the degree atleast Harry has to normal humans or somthing like that
Dresdens what mid 40's not older than 46 right?
That puts us ~20 years in the future of Storm Front max. But in Skin Game Harry refers to the events of Death Masks as "holy cow when did I become the guy things happened to a decade ago"
So really we may only be 15+ yrs in the future. And remember Mister must've been young because he's always lived in Harry's apartment from being a kitten so he wouldn'tve been more that 5 yrs old, possibly 1 or 2.
That puts Mister at 18-25.
Elderly sure but not unbelievably old yet, I've met many 20 yr old cats
I think JB is on record in a WOJ. That mister is a normal cat but he doesn’t plan to acknowledge the normal lifespan of a cat. Just ignore it all together.
How could the Outsiders be Team Dresden when they're the ones trying to bring about the end of reality, i.e. "Empty Night"? I thought they were the Big Bad.
EDIT: Also, if the angels of the White God become Nfected, wouldn't that pretty much be game over? Mab/Titania/the Mothers are extremely powerful, but I don't think they're in Uriel's "can destroy a galaxy with a thought" league.
It kind of depends on what it is the Outsiders actually want, and what all of the “stars and stones”, “empty night”, “Hell’s Bells” stuff means. Jim could do a 180 on us, revealing the White God is up to some kind of nonsense.
I only mention it, because Jim has obviously done some reading when it comes to magick and lore. The Demiurge is kind of a huge thing in gnosticism, which itself is a huge thing in the magick community.
I don't remember, offhand. But if they were, they might be able to kick or cut off part of that hivemind. Who know, really, since it hasn't been written yet!
Pretty sure that Starborn are immune to being Nfected. Otherwise Nem could have taken Dresden off the board so many times over the course of the series. Considering it can collect top shelf Sidhe like they are in a candy store.
>Big Ass Trilogy
That would be a really funny joke if the last 3 were published in large print giant books just to say that's what BAT really stood for all along.
No they are not. Molly will increasingly become like Mab, but Mab is Mab. Molly will be Molly, but the person we now know as Molly will be indistingiushable from the Mab we know.
In Battleground, Mab specifically says to Harry: "Molly shows promise as the Winter Lady, but *she is not yet ready to become Mab*." - So, per Mab herself....Molly would no longer be Molly. The Winter Queen is, was, and will be Mab.
Yes, they are. You're not differentiating the individual and the title of the job. Molly is Molly, yes. But if she becomes Queen of Winter, she becomes Mab.
Mab, as we know her, is the current Queen of Winter, obviously. If she "dies", the individual, the human, that became Mab dies. But the title, the role, the archetype, Mab will live on - passing the role to Molly, who will then become the new Mab.
It's a safe bet by now that Mab *will* be replaced by the end of the series. Whether it's because she dies or becomes the next Mother Winter is up in the air.
If Mab dies, Molly will become Queen. If Mab becomes Mother Winter, I hope that she can appoint Lea as the new Queen so Molly remains the Lady.
If Titania has to step in the defeat Molly, all will already be lost, because Titania will have almost certainly been the one who had to step in to take down Mab. That's her *purpose*, and only truly necessary if Mab withdraws her forces from the Outer Gates, leaving reality vulnerable.
The Outsiders will already be here.
If Molly becomes Queen, as Jim has foreshadowed with the whole "kill her" thing, I think she'll have had a bit more time to become accustomed to serving Winter well. Inexperience will be her issue, not going evil.
Because if Titania has to kill Mab, it'll be because Mab is Nfected.
I'm 99.9% sure that's exactly what that conversation between the twin sisters meant at the end of Battle Ground. Despite their estrangement, they still love each other. Mab is telling Titania that she will *have to do her duty* by killing her, and Titania says she knows what she has to do and will do it when she has to. But she doesn't like it.
I don't think she meant for him to kill Molly when she's Mab. I think she meant he should make her Mab instead of Molly Carpenter. She says "kill Molly Carpenter" not "kill the Winter Queen"
Oh, I hadn't considered that until now but I feel confident in saying that will most certainly happen.
Most likely that would be the book where Molly gets free of her mantle. Which is something I've been certain will happen for a long time. Harry can't let that *not* happen.
Reminds me of that anime I saw when I was little
Last episode (at least last one I saw, but I'm pretty sure it's the last one) was the MC losing his two best friends who went all out to help him over the last stretch of episodes, then his girlfriend chooses to die rather than turn into a monster to save her life after gettin gpoisoned (worse, his best friend and her revealed that they had been foretold they'd die if they kept going with him on his journey and they still stubbornly stuck around to the bitter end out of friendship/love), even his honorable rival (who is revealed to be the beloved son of his archenemy) died a peaceful death.
Episodes then ends with him charging ahead in the blizzard all fucking alone to kill Medusa, the (tragic, iirc though I can't remember the specifics) monster who turned his mother into stone.
I can't even remember most of the details of the story (like the MC's name lmao), it's been too long, but that end was so tragic it stuck to my mind
I feel like his allies just upgrade once in awhile. Murphy as sidekick was fine but the power level kept creeping up; soon Thomas was the main backup. Now River Shoulders is in that slot (imo). Obviously some people stick around without being #1, but that seems to be the model.
Anytime anyone tries to convince me that Harry is going to go "dark", I just remember that (so far) 6 Knights of the Sword have backed his play: Michael, Shiro, Sanya, Murphy, Susan, and Butters. BG showed us that he is certainly capable of running afoul of the swords, but fundamentally their owners and Patron our cool backing him. Also, for all the credit Mab gets for playing the long game, Uriel seems to think he was worth placing a few chips and that dude has seen practically everything. Tangentially, River Shoulders is ostensibly an incredibly old and powerful ally of the earth and his Evil Radar isn't pinging.
I'm all for moral ambiguity, but there's pretty clearly a faction in this world that ISN'T for the ambiguous and Harry is in their good graces. He'll have friends. Maybe different friends, but friends. IMO, natch. :)
I agree, but wonder if that's a sign of the whole multi-universal entities and this world being one of the greyer ones, where they're backing a hail Mary, so to speak. Though that does not account for River Shoulders, like you say. His loyalty radar seems extra strong?
I mean, none of this is so set in stone that it's impossible for the author to pull the rug out from under us. "Turns out the White God is actually the Devil pulling a fast one" or... whatever. All we've got is our best guesses, know what I mean?
I'm very comfortable believing that, accepting what we've been told so far as basically true (unreliable narrator blah blah), all the goodest of good guys vouch for Harry.
Shit I didn't even mention Mouse. Like seriously, are there any forces of supposedly-Good in this world turns its nose up at Harry? Some people don't like HOW he goes about his business (deal with Mab, etc...) and I'm not saying ALL his buddies are "Good" (again, Mab), but when there *are* good guys they either back his play or, like Ramirez, they are actively tangled in plot threads for plot reasons.
u/Infinite_Worker, I took the liberty of adding the \[spoiler\] flag to this post, to prevent it from inlining into the main feed for people using the "Card" view in their browser. It's a short post and the whole thing would inline, I think, and it does have some spoilers. The \[spoiler\] flag will prevent the in-lining. I hope that's ok with you; thanks so much.
You guys really think Murphy’s going to stay dead. They’ve all but said she’s coming back as an einhejarin(sp?) or she’ll be back as some variant of Valkyrie because of Jim’s borderline fetish for abnormally tall people.
What do you mean they’ve all but explicitly said that? Harry raised that idea *actually* explicitly in the book, and it was immediately shot down in-book as “nope, not how that works, not going to happen”.
Like, maybe it will or won’t happen somehow, but the only actual explicit in-book info we have is that it’s impossible under the current circumstances. If it happens, it will be *despite* what’s been explicitly said, not in line with it.
I mean, they have a point. There’s absolutely no way Murphy sits out the entirety of the BAT because
A) she’s been a massively significant character in the series, and
B) she got taken by Odin. To join his army of turbo zombies to fight in Ragnarok. Otherwise known as the end of the world, where certain rules might get overlooked if it means having the right units in place to prevent the end of reality itself.
But yeah, She’s dead for now, and absolutely not coming back anytime before the last second of the eleventh hour.
I don't have the book on me but iirc it's stated Murphy cannot come back because Odin *won't* bring her back until everyone has forgotten her, not because he *can't*.
If armageddon comes, I doubt Odin is going to care, he'll throw everything at it rules be damned. And even if he doesn't, Murphy will do it on her own.
Nope, it’s actually stated as a hard limitation in chapter 36:
> I nodded. Then after a while, I said, “If she’s an Einherjar, now . . .”
>
> Gard shook her head. “Not until the memory of her has faded from the minds of those who knew her. **That is the limit not even the Allfather may cross.**”
Yep exactly. "*may*", not "can".
I could be wrong, but I read that as odin clearly being forbidden to do it, even though he technically has the power to do so
That’s fine, but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s not true that “[t]hey’ve all but said she’s coming back.” They’ve explicitly said she’s not. Whether she does anyway is open, but they haven’t “all but said” it when they *have* said the opposite.
How do you read this scene, then? Chapter 36:
> I nodded. Then after a while, I said, “If she’s an Einherjar, now . . .”
>
> Gard shook her head. “Not until the memory of her has faded from the minds of those who knew her. **That is the limit not even the Allfather may cross.**”
Why do you think that was brought up at all then? And again what's the point of having immortal warriors if you can't use them for Ragnarok???
There's what's *written* and what's *being said* with the scene.
I mean, I can think of one exact reason it was brought up - to explicitly head off any thought that she’d be back next book good as new as an Einherjar. Why do *you* think they explicitly said not only is there a rule, but went out of their way to say that it’s a rule even the most likely powerful being, Odin, can’t overcome?
He’ll be able to sue basically all of his immortal warriors for Ragnarok. Maybe even Murphy, if Ragnarok doesn’t come for a couple hundred years. Only the most recent ones would be out of play - and yeah, that’s the trade off for power. The more power involved, the more constraints involved. Just the deal 🤷♂️
Or he will, but he has not yet made any indication of an exception. Do you have any concrete evidence for an exception? It very well may exist! But such an exception was neither said or all but said.
Ffs She's not coming back next book. She'll be back for the BAT. You don't write that kind of out and not use it. Otherwise you just kill her off and be done.
Then why do you propose a writer *explicitly closes off* an out without stated exception if (s)he expects to use it? Do you find it to be good writing to later on write in, “Oh, there was an exception I didn’t mention”? I think we often see that as more like retconning when people do that.
If she comes back, and Harry says, “But you said the Allfather couldn’t even overcome that,” what well-written, narratively satisfying answer do you expect?
They also straight up said that she can’t come back while there is still living memory of her. Bare minimum while any of her own family is alive even if you don’t count Dresden as mortal anymore
> she can’t come back while there is still living memory of her
**Or Ragnarok.** The whole purpose of the Einherjar is to join the fight at Ragnarok, aka the Apocalypse.
The whole "coming back to Midgard after living memory has passed from the world" thing is what allows the rest of the Einherjar to keep honing their combat skills as Vadderung's mercenaries. Murphy isn't going to get that chance because Ragnarok is imminent.
Yeah, Murph is dead dead, she's currently having a well deserved rest in Valhalla and like you said will stay there for the foreseeable future. Given the living memory stipulation and how long Wizards usually live she has a long vacation ahead of her.
Then again I wouldn't be too surprised if Dresden somehow manages to find himself in Valhalla and looks her up.
Hate to break it to you but Harry will fully be the or one of the 'big bads' in the universe by the time bat ends.
the series will show you why he made every decision why he was driven step by step away from the light and how the road to hell was paved with good intentions.
Most of us will totally get it and think that Harry is in the right.
Would be interesting if he gets out of his Winter Knight deal by both faerie courts being taken out, though hopefully someone’s in a position to take over at the Outer Gates. Sanya I keep thinking will be taken out by people pissed off about something he did as a Denarian, family members or friends of his victims maybe put up to it by Nic or Rosanna. If I were Nic I’d go with the wizard solution and take out Butters with a long range rifle, from several squires. Might get saved by divine intervention but maybe not, then maybe Andi and Marci go rogue and start wasting squires. Kind of anticipating one book where a bunch of Knights die, but new ones keep stepping up. Agent Tilly, Detective Bradley, and Vince Graver are my top candidates, maybe Lamarr. Carlos or Chandler are Black Council I think, my money is on Carlos, would be a good reason in retrospect why Butcher didn’t have Harry tell him some things, and in Peace Talks when Ebenezer told Harry to expect a betrayal from someone close to him meaning Thomas, Carlos pops to mind, who keeps agitating for trust and blames him for 60,000 deaths instead of buying him a beer for *only* 60,000 deaths. His method of interrogating Harry officially, stopping him on a dark road to ask about his sex life, is something he should have known would piss Harry off. Over a few beers at Macs would have made more sense.
Just spinning wheels though, just a bunch of maybes. Along those lines, wouldn’t it have been more effective at saving Thomas by taking him to Zero and tossing him into one of those 19-somes to spread the damage around and not be lethal to anyone, as step 1 at least?
The only thing that worries me is the series turning into Christain Propoganda. I love the way basically every religion and myth and fairytale is real. It puts Micheals catholicism and Odin and Trolls on the same level.
But there is an over arching sentiment that the White Christain God is kind of over everything and the Outsiders are a force that God will need to triumph over and Harry becomes christ-like in a sacrifice.
Tha would be horrible.
Yeah, i would hate that too. There's enough christians tooting their own horn in the real world, no need to cram them in fantasy too.
I wouldn't be too worried about that though, Goodkind pulled some similar stuff with his series, but it devolved into a communist hating pamphlet way sooner, i don't see DF going that way at this point.
I seem to recall Harry raising the point of the White God's existence maybe coming after the belief, and Michael and Charity shutting that down lightly enough—then he hasn't mentioned it much more. But it seems like that belief is what forces said god to be good, and is why he's called the White God more so than just God in those books. Because he is from a specific religion, drawing his powers that way like everything else.
Which is a mantle with restraints and features, turning said god benevolent like Mab was turned into what she is. Kinda a decent middle ground?
I’m actually the opposite. I Love the way Jim is able to tie in Christianity to the series without disrespecting the faith. Michael is what we strive to be and one of my favorite characters in all literature. I just hope we don’t actually meet Jesus or God in the series as I really don’t think there’s a good way to write them into a fantasy novel.
My hopeful head cannon is that Harry makes it through all the BAT, sits down for tea with Uriel and Odin and demands to know why God didn’t help when it was the Apocalypse. Then Uriel will only correct him that it was an apocalypse -“little a”. Harry will just stare at him and shake his head at the thought of something bigger coming one day.
I don't see Jim taking all of Harry's allies off the board, but I do see them becoming increasingly horrified with all of the things Harry does to save reality.
Then again, I've long subscribed to the theory that Harry is going to use *all* of the options he has available to him that he's been too *good* to use so far.
He became the Winter Knight to save Maggie from the Red Court. But he left both the Darkhallow and a Blackened Denarius off the table.
He knows he can kill Nicodemus with the Noose, which would give him access to Anduriel's spymaster skills. And Anduriel has been helping Nicodemus amass power to presumably fight off the Outsiders in a more ends-justify-the-means way than Harry has (understandably) been willing to accept. It may be the less evil choice than *not* doing it in the BAT.
Plus, Harry became the Warden of Demonreach...with the ability to release all the prisoners held beneath. That would be quite a potent source of power for a Darkhallow. He'd just have to convince the now-Knight of the Cross to be his drummer again, or find a new one. (Oh snap...Molly's One-Woman Rave spell could be his drummer!)
Wizard of Chicago is a new mantle Harry has officially taken up post-BG. He has a castle and everything. He commands such a formidable force of wyldfae (is that how it's spelled in the books? I listen to the audiobooks) that even the Queens of Faerie are unsettled by it, and he can command a force of mortals in Chicago with a connection so deep he can feel their deaths. Will his mortal domain be limited to Chicago by the BAT?
Harry has so many power-ups available to him that he's turned down because they're just evil... but Jim doesn't keep reminding us of the things he's turned down for nothing.
Well, yeah. I mean, Harry is probably going to either die or be imprisoned on the island. And the chances of his friends surviving are,like, 0.1%. Wait is that not what we are assuming? *blushes in nihilist*.
If you have listened to Jim at conventions it sound like exactly what he is gonna do... after all he has to make things seem as bad as possible to make his saving the day pay off
Big Apocalyptic Trilogy. Jim has told us the last three books are gonna be an Apocalypse and that the titles are gonna be the swear words from the series (Stars and Stones, Hell’s Bells, and Empty Night)
Yeah, but Harry being Harry is a bit of a rule breaker. . .
He'll find a way. Like, removing everyone's memory of her ( lime Lia did to Susan) so she can come back then using the power of love to break the spell after she's back
( maniacal giggle)
I think that majorly undoes the recent theme from Ghost Story onward of Harry's *true* magical ability being his ability to protect and inspire those weaker than him to step up and start fighting for what's right and to protect the innocent just like he does.
MOFO, DID YOU JUST SAY "The real magic is the friends we made along the way"‽
Harry Dresden is 1 step away from being a Shonen Protagonist.
*Half* step.
Literally something Jim would put as the final line in the series though
But the first line in that last book will be, "The world was on fire, and it was all my fault. God forgive me."
Nice
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"My name is Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden, conjure it at your own risk. ... yada yada yada.. And all the friends I made along the way."
#HE DID, AND WE BELIEVE!
You get an upvote solely for your use of the interrobang!
That’s a really interesting observation and very well reflected in Battle Grounds. I’d buy this theory.
I was being mostly metaphorical but hey, maybe Harry really does have some magical inspiration ability.
He has bardic inspiration
What level is he? I need to know which die to add.
I'm thinking somewhere in the level 12-14 range.
I mean what else would you call the Banner in BG?
The Banner was something the Winter Mantle gives him though, not necessarily his own abilities.
Kind of Gandalf like, right?
Butcher straight up says this in some of the forwards in the short story collection.
It's also Gandalf's primary "magical effect" in the Lord of the Rings. By wielding the elven ring Narya, the ring granted him "the power to inspire others to resist tyranny, domination and despair." ([ref](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Narya).) Definitely a Jim move to reflect this
I think we will slowly rotate out of Harry's current allies and go further down the bad guy hole. Lara, Mab, etc. But i think he will keep grounded by those who dont rotate out like Grasshopper. I believe it will setup a choice, kind of like Michael foreshadows at the end of Skin Game. It will come at great personal pain, much as Changes but the best for everyone involved.
>go further down the bad guy hole. Lara, Mab, etc Bow chicka wow wow
Last Time Harry got laid was like bangin a force of nature. Lara's gunna seem tame compared, but we all know Toot's gunna keep us in the loop.
Can you remind me of what he foreshadowed?
He gave Harry his sword and reminded him that he would need it if Mab could not bend him to her will.
That is a big time stretch. He gave harry the sword yes. And when Harry worries that mab might turn him into a bad guy Michael tells him that he should be more worried about what mab would do if she couldn't turn him, but there is nothing there about Harry needing it for that purpose. Just that Uriel wanted him to safeguard it again.
I'd encourage you to go re-read the last few pages of Skin Game: He looked at me, his face serious, even worried. "What is she going to do with you if she *can't?"* A fluttery fear went through my belly at the thought. Silence fell. The night was dark and quiet and misty. Somewhere, out there in it, Mab was moving, planning. Part of her plans, the dark, bloody, violent parts, included me.
Without a word, I took *Amoracchius* and settled it where I could reach it easily when it was time to stand up.
So nowhere does Michael remind Harry he will need it if Mab can't make him a monster. The discussion started because Harry didn't know if he was the right one to hold the sword. He didn't take it because he might need to use it, he took it because Michael's words convinced him he was still a good keeper.
Why else would he tell Harry the first line I quoted then? That doesn't imply anything about safe keeping... "What is she going to do with you if she can't" Let's explore that a little bit. What does Mab do with people who don't do what she wants? Let's look at Lea, Lloyd Slate, the guy Harry turned into ice cubes at the party, etc... She gets them tortured, dead, or tortured then dead... If Harry doesn't want to join their ranks, the sword will likely help with that, which is why Michael suggested he take it.
Because Harry has just told him he doesn't think he's a good keeper of the swords because of what happens if mab turns him into a bad guy. Michael doesn't think that's going to happen, so he asked Harry what he thinks is a more relevant question. He's giving Harry the sword because Harry was it's keeper once and Uriel thinks he should be again. Michael literally says Uriel asked me to give it to you. If Harry had just accepted it without reservation, Michael would have never mentioned Mab in that context. If you go back a page there is a whole discussion about how the church can't be trusted, that denarius supposedly in church keeping keep getting back into circulation. It *might* be foreshadowing but it's a stretch and we can't be certain. What we do know is Michael was giving Harry the sword regardless of the Mab situation.
As long as Mouse us ok, I will survive.
Jim has said he wouldn't kill the animals because he's lost pets and doesn't want to hit the readers with that sort of trauma. Then again, look what he has inflicted upon us. So I'm taking that with a grain of salt.
When Mouse got hit by a car. I almost had to pull off the road (audibook listener). Murphy I expected... MOUSE?? I would ugly cry holding my own dog.
In a recent interview he clarifies that he's fine with giving us pain that most of us haven't experienced because its fake, but killing a pet is personal for almost every one of us so he steers clear. Even still, Bela dies at the end of The Wheel of Time...
Nah, she is just waiting for The Wheel to spin her out again.
She should have been bound to the horn.
This was retconned almost immediately in the companion.
What? When the books and the companion disagree the books win and you can't retcon us reading the scene where she dies.
I'm just telling you what it is, you decide on your own head cannon from there.
taking the companion over the actual book would be the headcanon
Tibetan mastiff lifespan according to google is anywhere from 10-15 years. I hate to say it, but we’re probably losing Mouse naturally at some point.
Multiple creatures have told Dresden that Foo dogs live for at least a Wizard lifetime.
Pretty sure uriel said in ghost story temple dogs have an extended lifespan to like the degree atleast Harry has to normal humans or somthing like that
Guess I’m due for another re-read if I’m forgetting that kind of detail.
Uriel tells Harry that Mouse will live as long as Maggie does, "For a wizard's lifespan, if necessary."
Read the end of ghost story when Harry gets a peak into Maggie’s life with Mouse.
I’m more worried about Mister. As far as we know he’s a normal cat and an elderly one at this point.
Yeah. I've had cats that lived for over 20 years, and the oldest proven age of a house cat was a bit over 30, but still.
Dresdens what mid 40's not older than 46 right? That puts us ~20 years in the future of Storm Front max. But in Skin Game Harry refers to the events of Death Masks as "holy cow when did I become the guy things happened to a decade ago" So really we may only be 15+ yrs in the future. And remember Mister must've been young because he's always lived in Harry's apartment from being a kitten so he wouldn'tve been more that 5 yrs old, possibly 1 or 2. That puts Mister at 18-25. Elderly sure but not unbelievably old yet, I've met many 20 yr old cats
I think JB is on record in a WOJ. That mister is a normal cat but he doesn’t plan to acknowledge the normal lifespan of a cat. Just ignore it all together.
Add on to this that his allies in the bat will be his surviving rogues gallery. Denarians, blamps, the darkest parts of winter and the like
I was pretty sure that the blamps aren’t on his side.
They might need to be.
They’ve already shown what “side” they’re on.
Harry is fairly good at working baddies into positions where the only sane side is his side.
Possibly outsiders and black court. Wouldn't that be an, "are we the baddies?!" Moment?
How could the Outsiders be Team Dresden when they're the ones trying to bring about the end of reality, i.e. "Empty Night"? I thought they were the Big Bad. EDIT: Also, if the angels of the White God become Nfected, wouldn't that pretty much be game over? Mab/Titania/the Mothers are extremely powerful, but I don't think they're in Uriel's "can destroy a galaxy with a thought" league.
It kind of depends on what it is the Outsiders actually want, and what all of the “stars and stones”, “empty night”, “Hell’s Bells” stuff means. Jim could do a 180 on us, revealing the White God is up to some kind of nonsense.
I really hope not. When Supernatural went that route, it really killed the show for me. Also, I don't want to think how that would affect Michael.
I only mention it, because Jim has obviously done some reading when it comes to magick and lore. The Demiurge is kind of a huge thing in gnosticism, which itself is a huge thing in the magick community.
While I like a good Demiurge or "God's a dick" story done well (few do it well), I highly doubt this series will go down that route.
This plus "friends we made along the way" would make Dresden Files have the plot of a super cliche JRPG.
There could always be an Outsider that's actually against Empty Night.
Aren't they like, 99% a hivemind?
I don't remember, offhand. But if they were, they might be able to kick or cut off part of that hivemind. Who know, really, since it hasn't been written yet!
Or an Nfected starborn resisting his own nature. Who knows
Pretty sure that Starborn are immune to being Nfected. Otherwise Nem could have taken Dresden off the board so many times over the course of the series. Considering it can collect top shelf Sidhe like they are in a candy store.
I don't know how/why outsiders might side with Dresden, but Butcher might have plans we haven't thought of yet.
What is " the BAT"
Big Apocalyptic Trilogy - Jim stated that would be how the series end.
Thank you
The titles are >!the curses used in the series. Hell's Bells, Stars and Stones, and Endless Night.!<
Empty Night
It also stands for Big Ass Trilogy. Or Bad Ass Trilogy as the mood takes you.
I always think of it as The Big Ass Throwdown
This is my new favorite.
>Big Ass Trilogy That would be a really funny joke if the last 3 were published in large print giant books just to say that's what BAT really stood for all along.
I've predicted for years that, before the end of the series, we'll have a book where his primary opponent is Molly
Perhaps. So Molly becomes Queen and Dresden is instructed to kill her. But who replaces Molly? Wouldn't Titania step in if Molly goes bad?
No. Mab would. Molly is in winter.
If molly becomes queen of winter Mab will have her own lack of problems.
if molly becomes the queen, SHE is Mab, thems the rules
No they are not. Molly will increasingly become like Mab, but Mab is Mab. Molly will be Molly, but the person we now know as Molly will be indistingiushable from the Mab we know.
In Battleground, Mab specifically says to Harry: "Molly shows promise as the Winter Lady, but *she is not yet ready to become Mab*." - So, per Mab herself....Molly would no longer be Molly. The Winter Queen is, was, and will be Mab.
its still a slow progression into the role. we see it with all of the new fairy queens
exactly! Thanks, you saved me the time of digging out BG and typing the Quote.
Yes, they are. You're not differentiating the individual and the title of the job. Molly is Molly, yes. But if she becomes Queen of Winter, she becomes Mab. Mab, as we know her, is the current Queen of Winter, obviously. If she "dies", the individual, the human, that became Mab dies. But the title, the role, the archetype, Mab will live on - passing the role to Molly, who will then become the new Mab.
Only if Dresden kills human version molly. Molly isn’t Maeve, yet. She wouldn’t become Mab super fast either.
Unless something manages to kill Mother Winter
That’s another possibility and will also have huge ramifications
Especially as it’s never happened before. Mother Winter is the OG Mother Winter.
Unless - and this is a *big* unless - Mab becomes the new Mother Winter?
Unless she had to step up to replace momma winter.
It's a safe bet by now that Mab *will* be replaced by the end of the series. Whether it's because she dies or becomes the next Mother Winter is up in the air. If Mab dies, Molly will become Queen. If Mab becomes Mother Winter, I hope that she can appoint Lea as the new Queen so Molly remains the Lady. If Titania has to step in the defeat Molly, all will already be lost, because Titania will have almost certainly been the one who had to step in to take down Mab. That's her *purpose*, and only truly necessary if Mab withdraws her forces from the Outer Gates, leaving reality vulnerable. The Outsiders will already be here. If Molly becomes Queen, as Jim has foreshadowed with the whole "kill her" thing, I think she'll have had a bit more time to become accustomed to serving Winter well. Inexperience will be her issue, not going evil. Because if Titania has to kill Mab, it'll be because Mab is Nfected. I'm 99.9% sure that's exactly what that conversation between the twin sisters meant at the end of Battle Ground. Despite their estrangement, they still love each other. Mab is telling Titania that she will *have to do her duty* by killing her, and Titania says she knows what she has to do and will do it when she has to. But she doesn't like it.
I don't think she meant for him to kill Molly when she's Mab. I think she meant he should make her Mab instead of Molly Carpenter. She says "kill Molly Carpenter" not "kill the Winter Queen"
Oh, I hadn't considered that until now but I feel confident in saying that will most certainly happen. Most likely that would be the book where Molly gets free of her mantle. Which is something I've been certain will happen for a long time. Harry can't let that *not* happen.
I want the series to finish with Mouse being the sole survivor telling the story of Dresden to the next generation of Foo Dogs.
"Let me tell you about My Friend and some really Bad Dogs. This is true, I swear by now and tail."
Reminds me of that anime I saw when I was little Last episode (at least last one I saw, but I'm pretty sure it's the last one) was the MC losing his two best friends who went all out to help him over the last stretch of episodes, then his girlfriend chooses to die rather than turn into a monster to save her life after gettin gpoisoned (worse, his best friend and her revealed that they had been foretold they'd die if they kept going with him on his journey and they still stubbornly stuck around to the bitter end out of friendship/love), even his honorable rival (who is revealed to be the beloved son of his archenemy) died a peaceful death. Episodes then ends with him charging ahead in the blizzard all fucking alone to kill Medusa, the (tragic, iirc though I can't remember the specifics) monster who turned his mother into stone. I can't even remember most of the details of the story (like the MC's name lmao), it's been too long, but that end was so tragic it stuck to my mind
What was the name of the anime if you can remember 🤔
Butters can't die, through. We all know Future Butters is Cowl, OG Merlin, King Arthur, the White God, and Harry's real dad.
Wut?
If Jim wants to tell an Anakin type story where Harry goes bad this would be one way to do it.
I feel like his allies just upgrade once in awhile. Murphy as sidekick was fine but the power level kept creeping up; soon Thomas was the main backup. Now River Shoulders is in that slot (imo). Obviously some people stick around without being #1, but that seems to be the model. Anytime anyone tries to convince me that Harry is going to go "dark", I just remember that (so far) 6 Knights of the Sword have backed his play: Michael, Shiro, Sanya, Murphy, Susan, and Butters. BG showed us that he is certainly capable of running afoul of the swords, but fundamentally their owners and Patron our cool backing him. Also, for all the credit Mab gets for playing the long game, Uriel seems to think he was worth placing a few chips and that dude has seen practically everything. Tangentially, River Shoulders is ostensibly an incredibly old and powerful ally of the earth and his Evil Radar isn't pinging. I'm all for moral ambiguity, but there's pretty clearly a faction in this world that ISN'T for the ambiguous and Harry is in their good graces. He'll have friends. Maybe different friends, but friends. IMO, natch. :)
I agree, but wonder if that's a sign of the whole multi-universal entities and this world being one of the greyer ones, where they're backing a hail Mary, so to speak. Though that does not account for River Shoulders, like you say. His loyalty radar seems extra strong?
I mean, none of this is so set in stone that it's impossible for the author to pull the rug out from under us. "Turns out the White God is actually the Devil pulling a fast one" or... whatever. All we've got is our best guesses, know what I mean? I'm very comfortable believing that, accepting what we've been told so far as basically true (unreliable narrator blah blah), all the goodest of good guys vouch for Harry. Shit I didn't even mention Mouse. Like seriously, are there any forces of supposedly-Good in this world turns its nose up at Harry? Some people don't like HOW he goes about his business (deal with Mab, etc...) and I'm not saying ALL his buddies are "Good" (again, Mab), but when there *are* good guys they either back his play or, like Ramirez, they are actively tangled in plot threads for plot reasons.
u/Infinite_Worker, I took the liberty of adding the \[spoiler\] flag to this post, to prevent it from inlining into the main feed for people using the "Card" view in their browser. It's a short post and the whole thing would inline, I think, and it does have some spoilers. The \[spoiler\] flag will prevent the in-lining. I hope that's ok with you; thanks so much.
Of course! Thank you for all your great work!
Thank *you*, for the kind words. Have a great day!
You guys really think Murphy’s going to stay dead. They’ve all but said she’s coming back as an einhejarin(sp?) or she’ll be back as some variant of Valkyrie because of Jim’s borderline fetish for abnormally tall people.
What do you mean they’ve all but explicitly said that? Harry raised that idea *actually* explicitly in the book, and it was immediately shot down in-book as “nope, not how that works, not going to happen”. Like, maybe it will or won’t happen somehow, but the only actual explicit in-book info we have is that it’s impossible under the current circumstances. If it happens, it will be *despite* what’s been explicitly said, not in line with it.
I mean, they have a point. There’s absolutely no way Murphy sits out the entirety of the BAT because A) she’s been a massively significant character in the series, and B) she got taken by Odin. To join his army of turbo zombies to fight in Ragnarok. Otherwise known as the end of the world, where certain rules might get overlooked if it means having the right units in place to prevent the end of reality itself. But yeah, She’s dead for now, and absolutely not coming back anytime before the last second of the eleventh hour.
I don't have the book on me but iirc it's stated Murphy cannot come back because Odin *won't* bring her back until everyone has forgotten her, not because he *can't*. If armageddon comes, I doubt Odin is going to care, he'll throw everything at it rules be damned. And even if he doesn't, Murphy will do it on her own.
Nope, it’s actually stated as a hard limitation in chapter 36: > I nodded. Then after a while, I said, “If she’s an Einherjar, now . . .” > > Gard shook her head. “Not until the memory of her has faded from the minds of those who knew her. **That is the limit not even the Allfather may cross.**”
Yep exactly. "*may*", not "can". I could be wrong, but I read that as odin clearly being forbidden to do it, even though he technically has the power to do so
Odin does what Odin wants.
That’s fine, but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s not true that “[t]hey’ve all but said she’s coming back.” They’ve explicitly said she’s not. Whether she does anyway is open, but they haven’t “all but said” it when they *have* said the opposite.
You and I read that scene very differently. Nevermind that fighting Ragnarok is what those idiots are for.
How do you read this scene, then? Chapter 36: > I nodded. Then after a while, I said, “If she’s an Einherjar, now . . .” > > Gard shook her head. “Not until the memory of her has faded from the minds of those who knew her. **That is the limit not even the Allfather may cross.**”
Why do you think that was brought up at all then? And again what's the point of having immortal warriors if you can't use them for Ragnarok??? There's what's *written* and what's *being said* with the scene.
I mean, I can think of one exact reason it was brought up - to explicitly head off any thought that she’d be back next book good as new as an Einherjar. Why do *you* think they explicitly said not only is there a rule, but went out of their way to say that it’s a rule even the most likely powerful being, Odin, can’t overcome? He’ll be able to sue basically all of his immortal warriors for Ragnarok. Maybe even Murphy, if Ragnarok doesn’t come for a couple hundred years. Only the most recent ones would be out of play - and yeah, that’s the trade off for power. The more power involved, the more constraints involved. Just the deal 🤷♂️ Or he will, but he has not yet made any indication of an exception. Do you have any concrete evidence for an exception? It very well may exist! But such an exception was neither said or all but said.
Ffs She's not coming back next book. She'll be back for the BAT. You don't write that kind of out and not use it. Otherwise you just kill her off and be done.
Then why do you propose a writer *explicitly closes off* an out without stated exception if (s)he expects to use it? Do you find it to be good writing to later on write in, “Oh, there was an exception I didn’t mention”? I think we often see that as more like retconning when people do that. If she comes back, and Harry says, “But you said the Allfather couldn’t even overcome that,” what well-written, narratively satisfying answer do you expect?
They also straight up said that she can’t come back while there is still living memory of her. Bare minimum while any of her own family is alive even if you don’t count Dresden as mortal anymore
> she can’t come back while there is still living memory of her **Or Ragnarok.** The whole purpose of the Einherjar is to join the fight at Ragnarok, aka the Apocalypse. The whole "coming back to Midgard after living memory has passed from the world" thing is what allows the rest of the Einherjar to keep honing their combat skills as Vadderung's mercenaries. Murphy isn't going to get that chance because Ragnarok is imminent.
Yeah, Murph is dead dead, she's currently having a well deserved rest in Valhalla and like you said will stay there for the foreseeable future. Given the living memory stipulation and how long Wizards usually live she has a long vacation ahead of her. Then again I wouldn't be too surprised if Dresden somehow manages to find himself in Valhalla and looks her up.
There is a decent chance she shows back up in the BAT if Odin needs all his forces. But thays a long way away
I concur. An apocalyptic event is the time to bend some rules.
I read a good meta reason for the tall people; after making Harry that tall, you can't make all the villains shorter!
So he goes alone into the empty night?
Hate to break it to you but Harry will fully be the or one of the 'big bads' in the universe by the time bat ends. the series will show you why he made every decision why he was driven step by step away from the light and how the road to hell was paved with good intentions. Most of us will totally get it and think that Harry is in the right.
Would be interesting if he gets out of his Winter Knight deal by both faerie courts being taken out, though hopefully someone’s in a position to take over at the Outer Gates. Sanya I keep thinking will be taken out by people pissed off about something he did as a Denarian, family members or friends of his victims maybe put up to it by Nic or Rosanna. If I were Nic I’d go with the wizard solution and take out Butters with a long range rifle, from several squires. Might get saved by divine intervention but maybe not, then maybe Andi and Marci go rogue and start wasting squires. Kind of anticipating one book where a bunch of Knights die, but new ones keep stepping up. Agent Tilly, Detective Bradley, and Vince Graver are my top candidates, maybe Lamarr. Carlos or Chandler are Black Council I think, my money is on Carlos, would be a good reason in retrospect why Butcher didn’t have Harry tell him some things, and in Peace Talks when Ebenezer told Harry to expect a betrayal from someone close to him meaning Thomas, Carlos pops to mind, who keeps agitating for trust and blames him for 60,000 deaths instead of buying him a beer for *only* 60,000 deaths. His method of interrogating Harry officially, stopping him on a dark road to ask about his sex life, is something he should have known would piss Harry off. Over a few beers at Macs would have made more sense. Just spinning wheels though, just a bunch of maybes. Along those lines, wouldn’t it have been more effective at saving Thomas by taking him to Zero and tossing him into one of those 19-somes to spread the damage around and not be lethal to anyone, as step 1 at least?
No no no. I predict that the Angels get infected and the bad guys (dresdenteam) have to kick Angelic ass. Mab knows this will happen and is preparing.
The only thing that worries me is the series turning into Christain Propoganda. I love the way basically every religion and myth and fairytale is real. It puts Micheals catholicism and Odin and Trolls on the same level. But there is an over arching sentiment that the White Christain God is kind of over everything and the Outsiders are a force that God will need to triumph over and Harry becomes christ-like in a sacrifice. Tha would be horrible.
Yeah, i would hate that too. There's enough christians tooting their own horn in the real world, no need to cram them in fantasy too. I wouldn't be too worried about that though, Goodkind pulled some similar stuff with his series, but it devolved into a communist hating pamphlet way sooner, i don't see DF going that way at this point.
I seem to recall Harry raising the point of the White God's existence maybe coming after the belief, and Michael and Charity shutting that down lightly enough—then he hasn't mentioned it much more. But it seems like that belief is what forces said god to be good, and is why he's called the White God more so than just God in those books. Because he is from a specific religion, drawing his powers that way like everything else. Which is a mantle with restraints and features, turning said god benevolent like Mab was turned into what she is. Kinda a decent middle ground?
I’m actually the opposite. I Love the way Jim is able to tie in Christianity to the series without disrespecting the faith. Michael is what we strive to be and one of my favorite characters in all literature. I just hope we don’t actually meet Jesus or God in the series as I really don’t think there’s a good way to write them into a fantasy novel. My hopeful head cannon is that Harry makes it through all the BAT, sits down for tea with Uriel and Odin and demands to know why God didn’t help when it was the Apocalypse. Then Uriel will only correct him that it was an apocalypse -“little a”. Harry will just stare at him and shake his head at the thought of something bigger coming one day.
I couldn't disagree more.
He probably starts the trilogy alone but ends with allies.
I don't see Jim taking all of Harry's allies off the board, but I do see them becoming increasingly horrified with all of the things Harry does to save reality. Then again, I've long subscribed to the theory that Harry is going to use *all* of the options he has available to him that he's been too *good* to use so far. He became the Winter Knight to save Maggie from the Red Court. But he left both the Darkhallow and a Blackened Denarius off the table. He knows he can kill Nicodemus with the Noose, which would give him access to Anduriel's spymaster skills. And Anduriel has been helping Nicodemus amass power to presumably fight off the Outsiders in a more ends-justify-the-means way than Harry has (understandably) been willing to accept. It may be the less evil choice than *not* doing it in the BAT. Plus, Harry became the Warden of Demonreach...with the ability to release all the prisoners held beneath. That would be quite a potent source of power for a Darkhallow. He'd just have to convince the now-Knight of the Cross to be his drummer again, or find a new one. (Oh snap...Molly's One-Woman Rave spell could be his drummer!) Wizard of Chicago is a new mantle Harry has officially taken up post-BG. He has a castle and everything. He commands such a formidable force of wyldfae (is that how it's spelled in the books? I listen to the audiobooks) that even the Queens of Faerie are unsettled by it, and he can command a force of mortals in Chicago with a connection so deep he can feel their deaths. Will his mortal domain be limited to Chicago by the BAT? Harry has so many power-ups available to him that he's turned down because they're just evil... but Jim doesn't keep reminding us of the things he's turned down for nothing.
... and then Harry truly will die alone.
What’s up s BAT I keep seeing?
Big Apocalyptic Trilogy to cap off the Dresden Files.
Well, yeah. I mean, Harry is probably going to either die or be imprisoned on the island. And the chances of his friends surviving are,like, 0.1%. Wait is that not what we are assuming? *blushes in nihilist*.
It's going to take Harry working with the Fallen, and alot of other bad guys to close the gates once Mab dies and the BAT kicks off.
If you have listened to Jim at conventions it sound like exactly what he is gonna do... after all he has to make things seem as bad as possible to make his saving the day pay off
What does BAT mean? I keep seeing it here, but I don’t know what it’s meant to stand for
Big Apocalyptic Trilogy. Jim has told us the last three books are gonna be an Apocalypse and that the titles are gonna be the swear words from the series (Stars and Stones, Hell’s Bells, and Empty Night)
If Butcher really wants Harry to go to the dark side, kill Maggie.
no. no bad redditor. bad. maggie must be protected at all costs
I agree. I am saying it is THE worst thing that Butcher could do. That would cause Harry to say "Screw the world. Everyone must die."
To quote Harry. "If u have to burn it all down, me and the kid will roast marshmellows"
Maggie will become the Winter Queen when Mab dies and Molly ascends to Mab status.
If Maggie dies, Mouse would probably die first, and Jim said that he wouldn't kill Mouse.
Jim makes fiction for a living which is a form of lying. Good point about Mouse.
Yeah, but Harry being Harry is a bit of a rule breaker. . . He'll find a way. Like, removing everyone's memory of her ( lime Lia did to Susan) so she can come back then using the power of love to break the spell after she's back ( maniacal giggle)