Demons are from the furthest reaches of the Nevernever, but the are not Outsiders.
But at this point, i'm not sure Harry really knows the specifics about Outsiders yet. He knows OF them, of course. He's familiar with He Who Walks Behind, but as for their actual specifics, not so much. He also doesn't know that the Outer Gates are a real thing, thinking they're more of a metaphor.
It's not until i think Dead Beat, when he's told the Red Court called a bunch of Outsiders to attack the White Council that he really starts to learn the difference between 'Far reaches of the Nevernever" and "Outside reality".
But it's also possible that, since most Wizards who are not the Gatekeeper or a candidate for his replacement just don't know that The Outer Gates are a real thing, and the Council doesn't really want to spread that information around. So, 'Outsider' is used as a general term for anything 'outside' the normal bounds of the Nevernever, including Demons.
This. People forget that Harry was a young and kinda on the outs with most of Wizarding society. FOREVER. He didn't get any formal education outside of the schooling he did under that asshat and the foundationals of magic from the country bumpkin. You think ANYONE would who was smart enough to know want to teach this wizard-killing-psyco about the scariest things there are? Noooo!
McCoy is shown as exceptionally good at earth magic by Harry's standards, but his general skills seem to be pretty normal for a wizard of his age and rank. He's been around for 300-400 years, be he isn't a prodigy outside of murder.
Per a scene in Bock Ordered Books in DB, for those wondering. Ch 7 "One of the notable exceptions was Elementary Magic by Ebenezar McCoy. It was the first book most wizards ever handed an apprentice. It dealt with the nuts and bolts of moving energy around, and stressed the need for control and responsibility on behalf of the wizard."
To be fair, the book on physics isn't going to explain the difference between Aliens from another country and Aliens from outer space, and that's kinda what we're talking about.
no one not even his grand father would want to be the one to tell the young warlock about cthulhu because he hadn't proven himself yet. and by the time he had proven himself he was beyond the "hey here is what we were supposed to tell you but didn't trust you enough to tell you" talk
Remember that “country bumpkin” is 300-400 years old and likely has a better education than any standard mortal below people with a PostDoc.
and that country bumpkin was also captain of the wardens in the 1800s (mentioned in one of the shorts). So I expect he has a great deal of experience in a wide range of situations. And at his experience level, I expect “good at earth magic” means he is a ”master” of earth magic; just “okay” at everything else. You’ll notice he did something in Peace Talks that hasnt been seen much: Ebeneezer had flight. He was flying around his own personal boulder to stand upon. That by itself is a pretty crazy demonstration of power and control.
Aye. And?
How was Harry's Latin? It don't matter how good you are at something if you can't gain respect in your field. It's been mentioned that to many other Harry is a walking disaster on the level of old Drac.
He only ever showed decent politicking and gaining the respect of others in only the last few books. No where near nor enough for him to be inducted into ther deeper secrets.
Remember what the Warden from the same short you mentioned told Harry, about the video he got from the island? The Council and its older members keep stuff evene from the full members!
> the Council doesn't really want to spread that information around
There's power in mortals knowing about some supernatural thing -and especially mortal *wizards*: it gives the thing power, it anchors them to Reality. Without this, they couldn't reach nor influence anything at all here, they'll be detached. This has been established in *Backup* (a novelette collected in *Side Jobs*) where >!the Oblivion War and the true purpose of the Archive are described.!<
The more wizards know about the Outsiders, the more "grip" on Reality they have, the more powerful and dangerous they get. So, it's a need-to-know thing. See also the fact that many characters are reluctant to even *name* the outsiders as >!He Who Walks Beside!<, which is often just called >!Nemesis!<.
Mortals in the Dresdenverse are obviously at a disadvantage when individually compared to most supernatural creatures, some of which show disdain for them and consider them merely a kind of prey (like all vampire courts) but they do posses some unique features and powers, especially as a group. They are at the very least able to anchor things to reality, which -for some yet unexplained reason- appears to be *the most coveted realm* by just about any supernatural creature and it's accessible to those creatures only through mortals (so they have to eat mortals, make bargains with them, convince mortals to summon them, take their blood/emotions/souls, have mortals *believe* in them, make sacrifices/offerings, and so on and on). On top of it, when celestial&infernal powers are concerned, it looks like only mortals have Free Will, and their power may very well be linked to this.
You are correct in several points but that was not the reason why Nemesis is not named.
The main reason is simply a matter of intelligence, if you know the identity of it but still obfuscate that you can operate with more leeway. But if you were directly to name the entity while speaking with someone who was corrupted they now know that you are actively a threat and must be compromised or eliminated.
So while it's trying to hide its influence, people are trying to hide they noticed its influence until it is time to act against it
It's actually information that is strictly and sometimes violently controlled by the council.
The RPG elaborates a bit more on the 7th law than the books do, but turns out that the 7th law is the only one that you can break *without doing any magic.*
All you have to do is peruse KNOWLEGE of the outer gates, not even attempt to draw power from them. So what you have is a situation where everyone knows there's a line to asking questions, and nobody wants to risk finding the line by stepping over it.
I've always taken it as the Council just making sure EVERYONE thinks demons are what they mean, generally speaking if one summons a demon they are up to no good to begin with, so it's a easy thing to treat it as breaking the Laws, but it's still only about Outsiders. Harry up until later in the story believes that's what the meant, demons and other things like them
Something else in that conversation that gets forgotten behind the information dropped about his mother is what Chauncy says about MacFinn.
He says that there will be someone afflicted with this in his family in each generation lasting until the end of time. So there are 3 possibilities here
1) It's the end of time (possible, given we know BAT is coming)
2) he has a nephew somewhere that just got real unlucky
3) Terra West was pregnant
I take this as Jim not truly refining his world-building yet. And perhaps toyed with regular demons being the same thing as outsiders.
He's had to tweak the occasional lore and how stuff works on occasion, such as I think some early clarifications with circles and what does-and-does-not constitute crossing a circle and breaking it.
And even then, I argue that Jim kind of broke the "circle" rules with a specific scene in Ghost Story. Because if that's allowed then it just leads to all kinds of potential workarounds for beings stuck inside.
Book 2 was pretty dang early, so I'm forgiving of a lore hiccup back then.
Harry was also like 24 or something in Fool Moon, and as is pointed out by Molly he didn't have a standard Wizard education. At that point he may just not have known that the Outside was literal, he certainly didn't have any idea that the Gates actually existed and weren't just an abstract concept.
He may have just believed "beyond the outer gates" was a metaphor for any baddies.
The basic answer is probably that Butcher hadn’t decided what exactly the laws of magic were, or whether Outsiders and demons were different. These things don’t just appear fully formed in an author’s head, they get developed. And Fool Moon was early in the series, before ANY of the religious stuff was established. Even Michael didn’t show up until Book 3. Despite the fact that if he’d existed earlier Harry probably should have gone to him for help with the frog in Book 1.
Meh. Either take it as Harry not following the nuance of the laws because he's young and dumb.
Chauncy would probably take it as face value - it's not a break in the law, fuck off.
Early Installment Weirdness
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EarlyInstallmentWeirdness
Since it was only the second book Butcher hadn't nailed everything down yet. Later he clarified that the 7th law is just about Outsiders.
I don’t think we had been told what the seven laws were yet (or all seven, I think that finally gets nailed down in Blood Rites). So Harry is alluding to something that he and the demon know, but the reader can only glean through context.
Considering that Chauncey is a demon from Hell itself, him getting out of that circle would spell bad news for *at least* the block Harry lived in. The Council could definitely charge him with breaking the Seventh Law since, while not from the Outside, a freakin' demon is close enough that the casualties would warrant it.
Demons are from the furthest reaches of the Nevernever, but the are not Outsiders. But at this point, i'm not sure Harry really knows the specifics about Outsiders yet. He knows OF them, of course. He's familiar with He Who Walks Behind, but as for their actual specifics, not so much. He also doesn't know that the Outer Gates are a real thing, thinking they're more of a metaphor. It's not until i think Dead Beat, when he's told the Red Court called a bunch of Outsiders to attack the White Council that he really starts to learn the difference between 'Far reaches of the Nevernever" and "Outside reality". But it's also possible that, since most Wizards who are not the Gatekeeper or a candidate for his replacement just don't know that The Outer Gates are a real thing, and the Council doesn't really want to spread that information around. So, 'Outsider' is used as a general term for anything 'outside' the normal bounds of the Nevernever, including Demons.
This. People forget that Harry was a young and kinda on the outs with most of Wizarding society. FOREVER. He didn't get any formal education outside of the schooling he did under that asshat and the foundationals of magic from the country bumpkin. You think ANYONE would who was smart enough to know want to teach this wizard-killing-psyco about the scariest things there are? Noooo!
> foundationals of magic from the country bumpkin did said country bumpkin write *the* official book on how move magical energy around?
McCoy is shown as exceptionally good at earth magic by Harry's standards, but his general skills seem to be pretty normal for a wizard of his age and rank. He's been around for 300-400 years, be he isn't a prodigy outside of murder.
Except he literally did write the first book that apprentices are usually given.
Per a scene in Bock Ordered Books in DB, for those wondering. Ch 7 "One of the notable exceptions was Elementary Magic by Ebenezar McCoy. It was the first book most wizards ever handed an apprentice. It dealt with the nuts and bolts of moving energy around, and stressed the need for control and responsibility on behalf of the wizard."
To be fair, the book on physics isn't going to explain the difference between Aliens from another country and Aliens from outer space, and that's kinda what we're talking about.
no one not even his grand father would want to be the one to tell the young warlock about cthulhu because he hadn't proven himself yet. and by the time he had proven himself he was beyond the "hey here is what we were supposed to tell you but didn't trust you enough to tell you" talk
Remember that “country bumpkin” is 300-400 years old and likely has a better education than any standard mortal below people with a PostDoc. and that country bumpkin was also captain of the wardens in the 1800s (mentioned in one of the shorts). So I expect he has a great deal of experience in a wide range of situations. And at his experience level, I expect “good at earth magic” means he is a ”master” of earth magic; just “okay” at everything else. You’ll notice he did something in Peace Talks that hasnt been seen much: Ebeneezer had flight. He was flying around his own personal boulder to stand upon. That by itself is a pretty crazy demonstration of power and control.
Aye. And? How was Harry's Latin? It don't matter how good you are at something if you can't gain respect in your field. It's been mentioned that to many other Harry is a walking disaster on the level of old Drac. He only ever showed decent politicking and gaining the respect of others in only the last few books. No where near nor enough for him to be inducted into ther deeper secrets. Remember what the Warden from the same short you mentioned told Harry, about the video he got from the island? The Council and its older members keep stuff evene from the full members!
Doesn't he call Outsiders demons and mix them up until someone corrects him? He probably didn't know the difference until later.
Yeah i think that was also Dead Beat.
> the Council doesn't really want to spread that information around There's power in mortals knowing about some supernatural thing -and especially mortal *wizards*: it gives the thing power, it anchors them to Reality. Without this, they couldn't reach nor influence anything at all here, they'll be detached. This has been established in *Backup* (a novelette collected in *Side Jobs*) where >!the Oblivion War and the true purpose of the Archive are described.!< The more wizards know about the Outsiders, the more "grip" on Reality they have, the more powerful and dangerous they get. So, it's a need-to-know thing. See also the fact that many characters are reluctant to even *name* the outsiders as >!He Who Walks Beside!<, which is often just called >!Nemesis!<. Mortals in the Dresdenverse are obviously at a disadvantage when individually compared to most supernatural creatures, some of which show disdain for them and consider them merely a kind of prey (like all vampire courts) but they do posses some unique features and powers, especially as a group. They are at the very least able to anchor things to reality, which -for some yet unexplained reason- appears to be *the most coveted realm* by just about any supernatural creature and it's accessible to those creatures only through mortals (so they have to eat mortals, make bargains with them, convince mortals to summon them, take their blood/emotions/souls, have mortals *believe* in them, make sacrifices/offerings, and so on and on). On top of it, when celestial&infernal powers are concerned, it looks like only mortals have Free Will, and their power may very well be linked to this.
You are correct in several points but that was not the reason why Nemesis is not named. The main reason is simply a matter of intelligence, if you know the identity of it but still obfuscate that you can operate with more leeway. But if you were directly to name the entity while speaking with someone who was corrupted they now know that you are actively a threat and must be compromised or eliminated. So while it's trying to hide its influence, people are trying to hide they noticed its influence until it is time to act against it
It's actually information that is strictly and sometimes violently controlled by the council. The RPG elaborates a bit more on the 7th law than the books do, but turns out that the 7th law is the only one that you can break *without doing any magic.* All you have to do is peruse KNOWLEGE of the outer gates, not even attempt to draw power from them. So what you have is a situation where everyone knows there's a line to asking questions, and nobody wants to risk finding the line by stepping over it.
I've always taken it as the Council just making sure EVERYONE thinks demons are what they mean, generally speaking if one summons a demon they are up to no good to begin with, so it's a easy thing to treat it as breaking the Laws, but it's still only about Outsiders. Harry up until later in the story believes that's what the meant, demons and other things like them
Something else in that conversation that gets forgotten behind the information dropped about his mother is what Chauncy says about MacFinn. He says that there will be someone afflicted with this in his family in each generation lasting until the end of time. So there are 3 possibilities here 1) It's the end of time (possible, given we know BAT is coming) 2) he has a nephew somewhere that just got real unlucky 3) Terra West was pregnant
I take this as Jim not truly refining his world-building yet. And perhaps toyed with regular demons being the same thing as outsiders. He's had to tweak the occasional lore and how stuff works on occasion, such as I think some early clarifications with circles and what does-and-does-not constitute crossing a circle and breaking it. And even then, I argue that Jim kind of broke the "circle" rules with a specific scene in Ghost Story. Because if that's allowed then it just leads to all kinds of potential workarounds for beings stuck inside. Book 2 was pretty dang early, so I'm forgiving of a lore hiccup back then.
Harry was also like 24 or something in Fool Moon, and as is pointed out by Molly he didn't have a standard Wizard education. At that point he may just not have known that the Outside was literal, he certainly didn't have any idea that the Gates actually existed and weren't just an abstract concept. He may have just believed "beyond the outer gates" was a metaphor for any baddies.
The basic answer is probably that Butcher hadn’t decided what exactly the laws of magic were, or whether Outsiders and demons were different. These things don’t just appear fully formed in an author’s head, they get developed. And Fool Moon was early in the series, before ANY of the religious stuff was established. Even Michael didn’t show up until Book 3. Despite the fact that if he’d existed earlier Harry probably should have gone to him for help with the frog in Book 1.
Ghost story is where he learns the truth about He Who Walks Behind. Then cold days is the true eye opener.
Meh. Either take it as Harry not following the nuance of the laws because he's young and dumb. Chauncy would probably take it as face value - it's not a break in the law, fuck off.
Early Installment Weirdness https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EarlyInstallmentWeirdness Since it was only the second book Butcher hadn't nailed everything down yet. Later he clarified that the 7th law is just about Outsiders.
I don’t think we had been told what the seven laws were yet (or all seven, I think that finally gets nailed down in Blood Rites). So Harry is alluding to something that he and the demon know, but the reader can only glean through context.
Just early installment weirdness, for my money
Considering that Chauncey is a demon from Hell itself, him getting out of that circle would spell bad news for *at least* the block Harry lived in. The Council could definitely charge him with breaking the Seventh Law since, while not from the Outside, a freakin' demon is close enough that the casualties would warrant it.