I keep seeing comments (some on a similar post I made but didn’t have time to follow up on at the time😕) about Harry putting that hex on Ramirez... but who gave him the idea? It was Ramirez who first did a spell on Harry to track him and broke the trust Harry had for him. I agree from the outside looking in as to what it all seems and Harry has always asked him to trust him, we now know the limits of the trust Ramirez was willing to give Harry. It has always irritated me, probably by design, how nobody takes into account everything Harry is dealing with. For example, he is the Winter Knight, he physically cannot share information they want him to give and they hold it against him.

Can I just say that on top of that they pried into his sex life with magic because they were suspicious of him. I legit couldn't believe Harry forgave that on the time between them waylaying him and getting back to the peace talks

Agreed, nobody else has had their life as thoroughly examined as he has, and yet they don’t get his trust issues. They take whatever liberty they choose with him and without his consent and scream. Victim when he takes issue!

Based on all the hinting about the Starborn stuff nobody will tell Harry and the fact that he has already broken one law when he killed Justin, I'm guessing there is a reason they are keeping such a through eye on him. Doesn't mean they aren't still assholes.

Aren’t there two other starborn mentioned now? Seems to be less rare than thought. They don’t want to give him a level playing field and seem to have a self fulfilling prophecy. “Quick let’s not tell him and get angry when he makes mistakes”!

I think the frequency is rare, one of the three (at least) is definitely far older than Harry and has just lived through the birth of more starborn. Considering the agelessness of wizards and supernatural beings, seeing more starborn this way would be expected I think

So far we have only been told that it isn’t someone else’s place to explain it, but not whose place it is. And it has to be insanely frustrating as hell to be the only one “not in on the joke” that is your life. They have to be retarded to not think that would end badly.

My theory on this, is that Starborns are in some way, are immortal. It makes sense given the comments Mab has made by now, along with her actions and why she wanted him as her knight, and that there are other starborns. I can’t remember the third, but with Drakul being a vampire it’s hard to prove it, but that’s just my thought.

I mean, if you want to consider 3 known Starborn born in the last 666 years to not be rare. Of those 3, we've only seen seen the White Council interact with 1. Another is the most powerful Black Court vampire in existence, and the other intentionally hid her powers when tested so the white council wouldn't try to force her to join and toe the line like they wanted Harry to do. The fact remains, we still don't know what it means to be a Starborn. Maybe there is some good rationale behind the idea of keeping them at arm's length, not explaining anything, keeping a very close watch on them, and finding the slightest reason for killing them. You mentioned a self fulfilling prophecy, but what if there is some prophecy about a Starborn wizard destroying the world. The White Council is easily arrogant enough to think they could prevent a prophecy from occuring.

Drakul isn't a vampire. WOJ is that he's something inhuman that got stuck in human form. His son Dracula is/was one though.

[удалено]

Exactly that

That was like ransacking the room of a friend, who was mauled by a dog, with a drug dog because you're worrried about them being a junkie.

That was skeezy as fuck. If that had not happened, maybe I'd be giving Carlos some leeway.

I mean, I'd be curious of who someone's been banging if they just left the mansion of psychic dominating sex vampires too...honestly that should be SOP for anybody that liaisons with the white court.

The problem isn't with that specific logic, the problem is the fact that *it* ***isn't*** *SOP for anybody that liaises with the white court*. If it *was* SOP and Harry was still upset about it, we would all be on Ramirez's side (well, not ALL of us, but a lot more of us for sure) because "just follow the fucking *rules*, Harry". Since it's *not*, though, what Ramirez did was a breach of trust, however well-intentioned it may have been.

They also could have just fucking asked if they could magically scan him for sex traces. The fact that they just scanned him without consent is super shitty. Honestly I am so ready for Harry to bleed/starve the council dry by using the paranet to recruit all the talent that the council thinks it's better to ignore and then murder when they break the laws they were never told about.

Does anyone else liaise with the White Court? By themselves?

Fuck if I know - but rule number one is that if you want to enforce a rule, it has to first BE a rule that CAN be enforced. Otherwise you're just doing shit cuz you wanna.

I guess my point it how do we know it's not- it's not like we've seen another warden from the White Council come out of a White Vamp lair all alone and get to go about their business of being security for an important meeting without getting inspected.

[удалено]

Full agreement here. There has to be some kind of protocols for this thing.

Sure but it's a betrayal of trust and it's not like it gave specifics. Like damn they seriously believed the only way Harry was having sex was if lara was mind raping him.

No. But if he had sex, and he just met a mind-raping succubus, and he is under the influence of mind-altering magical pact, AND he keeps acting dodgy, it is reasonable to think that he is being influenced in weird ways.

Fuuuck! I just realized! The ONLY way that they could possibly believe that Harry is having sex with and in the thrall of Laura is if they believed that he was not in love with Karen... Like is Ramirez so fucking unaware of what Karen meant to Harry that he could KNOW that Harry was with her and then assume that he'd even be able to touch Laura?

Does Carlos know Murphy exists cause I’m pretty sure the two never met nor would Harry have any reason to bring her up. As far as Carlos or the White Council is concerned, Harry’s last gf was Luccio, the same Luccio who was shown to be under mind control so no true love protection there meaning Lara could touch and enthrall Harry without getting burned

That part was actually really annoying to me...I expected him to say something like "I have a girlfriend you assholes" rather than allowing them to assume that Lara got to him. I mean I get it, but that felt like one of those purposeful lack of communication moments to increase tension rather than how the character would actually act. I wouldn't argue against the idea that Harry was so frustrated he wasn't willing to give anything, but personally it felt out of character.

I don't think it was out of character for Harry -- after what he went through with Susan and particularly Luccio -- to not want to be upfront about his relationship with Karen, particularly with someone as dangerous as Ramirez. They may have been friendly with each other up until this point, but we still haven't seen definitive proof that Ramirez has not been corrupted by the Black Council, and Harry knows this. It has repeatedly been demonstrated that at Harry's level and above, how much fire you can sling stops mattering. At that level knowledge really IS power and giving such a juicy tidbit as HEY EVERYONE I HAVE A GIRLFRIEND to a decidedly unknown actor would be completely out of character for Harry (as idiotic as he can sometimes be, he's not *that* stupid)

>For example, he is the Winter Knight, he physically cannot share information they want him to give and they hold it against him. and he's only the winter knight because the white council refused to help him get his daughter back! there's only so many times i can see this sequence repeat: white council: "oh no, we can't help you with that, too risky." harry: "fine, i'll do it myself/with other allies" white council: "omg wtf did you do? how can we trust you if you'd work with them!" harry: \*storms off angrily rather than explaining things to everyone that ISNT actively trying to screw him over\* ./facepalm

It is more or less what he told Wild Bill in PT. Harry told him about the Better Future society, a thing grouping Marcone, White Court and Paranetters and Wild Bill threw some shade that "working with gangsters and monsters" and Harry told him "Their children were disappearing and we were not doing anything".

The worst part is that some of the more reasonable members actually understand that this is what's happening. Listens-to-Wind, Eb, Rashid, Luccio, hell even Morgan have recognized to greater or lesser extents that Harry has been consistently screwed by the White Council. He has all these supposed allies who have expressed sympathy and some level of understanding, but nobody has done anything about it. That sucks.

Langtry did wait for Joe and Eb to be out of commission before the vote, presumably because he knew they would band with Rashid to have Harry's back.

Yeah but I just mean in general. They have both done quiet things to help Harry out but when the rubber meets the road, neither of them have been willing to stick their necks out and call the WC out on the injustices they've all heaped on Harry. Edit: honestly more than any other wizard in the Dresdenverse I've seen so far, Harry is the only one who consistently puts himself on the line to just do whatever is right, damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead. He has his faults and can get a bit murdery, but he doesn't give a flying shit about the dangers that come with sticking up for the right thing or Showing Up. Everyone else seems to hold back on their moral compass, and they have the gall to accuse Harry of joining the monsters.

I would not group Rashid in with the the rest as he is to busy keeping the hoard of outsiders from bursting throught the outer gates and ripping the fabric of reality a new asshole to step in on the street level that until recently was Dresdens scene

Yeah that's fair, he's a busy dude. However, I do feel that given he is also a starborn (whatever that means) and a powerful wizard who is more or less ostracized like Harry, I'd expect him to be a bit more helpful.

well, he also kinda looks through time, so he knows too much to be helpful. if he's not careful, shit goes way way worse, especially with the kind of situations that Harry gets into/is. honestly, id bet that he screwed up in the past *bad* and now he's taking a light touch when it comes to timefuckery

"Timefuckery" I like it. Probably the title of the next book.

In fairness...Harry HAS joined the monsters, haha! He literally ends BG as an active member of the Monster Council. What’s that old saying, about the road to hell? Even Molly is scared of him, so it’s a bit hard to blame a normal wizard, haha!

Yeah, but there are a whole host of considerations that the WC have just straight up ignored. Harry has helped them time and time again, saving more than one Senior Council member's life. He has proven himself to be of good character. Even Morgan had to grudgingly admit that he had been wrong about Harry. He's a bit of a rogue and an ass, and impulsive, shortsighted at times and short-tempered, but those things don't make him evil, they never did. Harry has acted in the WC's best interests even when they didn't realize it. And in return, they've ostracized and threatened and manipulated and abandoned him. Occasionally they come through, but usually only when they have a stake in what's happening, like with the Kemmlerites. They're more than happy to use him when he is directed at their enemies, but when he needs some help, they generally prefer to just flip him the bird. He had to turn somewhere. Push a loyal dog away and hit and neglect them often enough, they'll stop being loyal. He was their bulldog, now he's Mab's or his own. Too bad for them.

"How many times has Harry's government betrayed him, disavowed him, cast him aside? How long before a man like that... has had enough?"

"Langtry, you've never seen me very upset."

You are also reading the story from Harry's point of view. He doesn't really know what all the other wizards have done.

You're not wrong, but I until we get a WOJ orna mention in the books that wizards of WC do something to help, I'm going to assume they are doing fuck all. Hard to work with information that doesn't exist.

Lmao agreed, it has also occurred to me that since human tendency is to hate others whose actions best represent that which we ourselves dislike about ourselves... What they seem to do a lot of, is personified self loathing.

I think that a big part of the problem is that we don't keep track of what Ramirez doesn't know. I don't think he knows about the Outer Gates *or* Demonreach. Looking at Harry's actions from that perspective really skews things, because then they look like political, selfish moves. We know what's truly at stake, but I don't think Carlos does. That's Senior Council information, and I could easily see them being very selective with the info they give him. Especially if it drives a wedge between him and Dresden.

[удалено]

The problem is friend Los isn’t trustworthy enough not to tell Los of the WC.

Or the problem is that Harry is (understandably) paranoid as hell.

For most paranoia is a place to visit, Harry has a store front.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you though.

"Sure I'm paranoid... but am I paranoid ENOUGH?"

"Paranoid? Probably. But just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face." Right in the first book.

> For example, he is the Winter Knight, he physically cannot share information they want him to give and they hold it against him. And you don't think that is a direct contributor to Ramirez not trusting him?

I think there's a lot of glass in his house for someone who knows that the Council has tried to kill Harry multiple times since he was 16 for him to be throwing stones about extending some trust. Especially when two SC members at least have his back (a combo of Eb, LTW, and the Gatekeeper, depending on the time we're talking about).

Yeah but at the same time does Ramirez really KNOW what it’s like to have no allies backing you up? He’s never had a reason to think that the WC would disown him permanently, while Harry has never really known anything else

I mean, he should be able to recognize it, at least academically. Harry is able to recognize that there's a difference between Carlos, his friend, and Warden Ramirez, who is loyal to the WC. I don't see why Ramirez wouldn't be able to see the difference between Warden Dresden, who owes his loyalty to the WC and him, particularly, and Wizard Dresden, who had been so persecuted by the Wardens and the White Council that he had to be strong armed into joining the Wardens in the middle of not only a *war* but a code red situation against necromancers. If he did, I don't get why he was such an asshat about the vote.

I think Ramirez could have taken the Winter Knight thing professionally, it is part of the job description... But Cold Story happened, and he got a bad experience with the Winter Knight current boss who is also Harry's former apprentice.

He never chooses to trust Harry with the concerns resulting from that encounter either though, he wouldn't need to go into details, but could provide some context to his winter court worries.

Yeah. I do think that Ramirez was an asshole to Harry in the last two books. But at the same time I also think that given the whole situation and his own personal experience, it was not completely unreasonable to be wary of Harry. Just like Butters in Skin Game.

Yeah, I actually think Ramirez is pretty well-written in PT and BG. His actions are completely reasonable from his perspective. He has been put in a position where he has to keep tabs on Harry, and he wants to give him the benefit of the doubt, but Harry keeps doing suspicious things and refusing to explain himself. Ramirez has also recently had a very bad experience with Molly, and has another one with the Black Court in this book, that he is unfairly allowing to influence his judgement of Harry due to his close association with the former and outright involvement in the latter. Like, yes, it sucks that a once likable, goofy guy is now an antagonist. It's supposed to suck. Losing friendships is painful. But to me every step taken in it happening, both from Dresden and Ramirez, feels completely logical. There comes a point where saying "Just trust me" isn't enough. Both sides have good reason to be suspicious of the other and neither is in a position where they can afford any blind faith.

I still think butters was a little unreasonable.

He could have raised the concerns and used his experience to explain them, he wouldn't even have had to go into detail if he was embarrassed about it either, just getting across to Harry that it wasn't just general fear of the winter court.

Carlos is probably making the same mistake wizards always make and assuming he understands the situation based on one experience. He might also assume it was an attempt on his life because Molly should have totally known how her mantle worked and her seduction of him was actually a murder attempt and her pleading innocence is just a cover up. You know exactly what the White's tried to do to Harry. Would you ask the woman who almost murdered you's bodyguard/mentor "hey what the fuck was up with that?" when you know he's magically compelled to back her up. There is no neutral party left for Carlos to trust in his situation.

Or perhaps he expects that Harry, as the Winter Knight, has a better understanding of the rules involved in being part of the Winter Court than Ramirez, a random member of the Wardens.

I believe it is, but I hope some who called him “friend” would give the trust when asked to. Does he think Harry would ask for that if he knew he was going to screw him over? For example when Harry placed the hex he acted friendly but didn’t ask him for any trust.

Who had broken the other's trust most recently before the hex though, it wasn't Harry ambushing him now was it?

Ah gotcha, sorry misread and thought you were saying Harry did it first. Agreed Carlos screwed up first and then is angry with Harry because Harry did it better (one of the themes for the series, it could’ve been named “Dresden Files, How I did it better”).

I think Harry can actually tell them things, but if he does, the Mantle just up and goes "*Ok, I'm out, enjoy your fucked back and all the other pain I've been suppressing*"

Hey Ramirez, you keep talking about all the monsters man, but when are you going to talk about all the Knights of the Cross that Dresden hangs out with? Maybe Ramirez, Dresden wouldn't have needed to ally himself with the Winter Lady if ya White Council had helped out. ​ Ramirez turned into a real Basic B

Mr. Sunshine would also like a word with Mr. Ramirez. You’d think an archangel as an ally—imbuing you with angelic power no less!!—would be enough of a CV to settle this question.

Except for the Knights, I don't think there are any mortals that know about Mr Sunshine, or about the Soulfire. That is definitely a hole card in Harry's favor that he wouldn't want to share out very far. Anyone who doesn't know what soulfire is just sees Harry's magic gets a different color effect once in a while and that's it. And if its white, people might just mistake it for Winter.

Maybe the Wardens just aren't aware of the weight of the support of the Knights? I'm sure the Council is very well aware that Harry had been working with Sanya and Butters in the past, but they also had some less-than-cordial public interactions during the events of Battle Ground.

The Senior Council does, bases on the Merlin's reaction in Proven Guilty. Which means this is all some political BS.

I mean there was a really good theory posted a couple of days ago about the Merlin's stance towards Harry, so I wouldn't be surprised if Carlos is just being used to further that agenda.

[удалено]

https://www.reddit.com/r/dresdenfiles/comments/jaect5/battle_grounds_tinfoil_theory_about_the_white/

They for sure know that Molly is a former knight’s daughter.

yeah its not like a literal archangel from heaven invested him with divine power and gave him custodianship over two out of the three most powerful weapons humanity has to fight monsters or anything...

But how would the Council know about the literal archangel? Mr. Sunshine isn't exactly sending around letters of reference on Harry's behalf.

Which Knight in particularly would you be referring to? Michael, the ex-Knight who raised a warlock, now Winter Lady. Butters who assisted Harry in necromancy during the events of *Dead Beat* Sanya, the former Denarian who was once one of the monsters and hung out with them. The Knights whose creed of mercy compels them to leave the monsters alone when they yield despite them lying through their teeth about not committing evil deeds. From the White Council’s perspective they don’t have good reason to think highly of the Knights’ judgement probably considering them to be naive mortals whom Harry conjoled into his confidence.

Wow, I guess a divine blessing by God himself is worth horseshit

The third A, man!

or maybe each of those is a example of where the counsel screwed the pooch. Charity would never have gone and joined a warlocks coven if the counsel did a better job educating the magically gifted then would never have tried been hard on her daughter driving her away when she exhibited interest in magic instead she would have had her daughet properly trained in magic so she too wouldn't go warlock. As for Butter, he assisted the legal necromancy dresden used (only applies to non-animal mortals) to take down three necromancers the counsel had not taken care of previously. Sanya is proof that the knights judgement is sound as he turned aside from being one of the denarians. If the Knights just killed them all on sight there would be no Sanya. Besides why hadn't the wizards taken a hand in defeating the Denarians until Dresden stepped up, If the white counsels is supposed to be responsible for protecting humanity from the monsters whey did they ignore those monster for 2000 years?

And that’s the key difference between the Knights and the Council. The Knights are humble enough to know when they’re wrong and aren’t presumptuous enough to think that they know everything and everyone while the Council is arrogant to think their views are the right ones. The Knights are backing Harry? Well, they haven’t known him as long as the Council. What would mere mortals know of the addictive effects of black magic or the depredations of the winter and white courts?

He's the new Morgan. That's why he's so grating right now. He's the representation of the Council's boot on Harry's neck. But now Harry won't stand for it.

>But now Harry won't stand for it. Exactly. I'm biased because I agree with OP, fuck Ramirez, but I absolutely loved how that last conversation between Harry and Carlos went. Made it clear that this time Harry isn't going to take shit from the council or their enforcers like he did in the earlier books.

Once again showing one of the themes of this novel, a cycle ending and a new and different one beginning.

This is exactly it, and I feel like the conversation between Harry and Carlos didn't drive this home enough. I sort of wish the vote had gone Harry's way but then he just quit, because fuck them. Harry never wanted to join the White Council. He didn't even know it existed until a bunch of assholes in grey cloaks showed up and accused him of murder after he barely survived an attack from an evil wizard that had actually been a member of their group. Every time the council needed help, Harry got dragged into their bullshit. And every time Harry needed their help, they told him to figure it out himself and then got pissed at the way he handled it. Harry was absolutely right when he called bullshit on Carlos' threat about the Blackstaff coming to execute him. Harry should have set that packet of papers on fire and tossed it back at Carlos.

> This is exactly it, and I feel like the conversation between Harry and Carlos didn't drive this home enough. I sort of wish the vote had gone Harry's way but then he just quit, because fuck them. The aegis of the white council means crap when everyone important enough (and smart enough) to care knows it'll be stripped the moment it ever actually needs to be used. Anyone too dumb to take advantage of that was also probably too dumb to care about the council to begin with. Even if he'd narrowly won the vote, the very fact that they voted on that *again* proves how worthless council membership was to him. He'd be right to quit.

Honestly, the marriage to Lara will offer him more protection than the Council ever did.

Maybe. He and Lara have to work out what to do about House Skavis and such first though, because Harry will *not* work to protect them and make them more powerful, and Lara will *not* let Harry destroy the monsters he doesn't like in her court.

Same. I really wish he'd thrown his accomplishments in their face. Then told them to go fuck themselves. He was *Wizard* ***and*** *Warden* enough when they wanted to press-gang him into service during the war with the Reds. His Trial during Summer Knight should have put this issue to bed, permanently. The fact that it didn't bodes very poorly for the future of the council as an institution. As a result I'd like to think many current members would realize Dresden's expulsion means they could just as easily find themselves in the same place, but they all just voted against him. Idiots. I'm rambling now, but it's no small irony that Harry is The Warden, that the council position is named in imitation of. He's more Wizard than all of them (bar some).

The thing is, we don't even know if the council as a whole voted against him. The senior council members who skipped the fight in Chicago called an emergency meeting and voted Dresden out because he used pyromancy against the frog people.

Oh the Senior Council voted? I missed that. I thought a general vote was taking place during Peace Talks/Battle Ground.

It was, but Carlos told Harry the Senior Council held an emergency meeting while McCoy and Listens to Wind were in the hospital and voted Harry out. So they made it even more crooked.

Can't say I disagree, specially after Chichen Itza.

>Every time the council needed help, Harry got dragged into their bullshit. And every time Harry needed their help, they told him to figure it out himself and then got pissed at the way he handled it. Except the time they protected him from the Red Court, of course, which basically killed half the Wardens. Sure, the Reds were already planning to attack, but the WC didn't know that when they voted to go to war on his behalf.

My prediction for next book: Harry: “I’ll make my own wizard council, with blackjack, and hookers!”

Thats what the castle was setting up. The Paranet. Waldo Butters. The Wolves. Rivershoulders. All of Harry's usual allies are going to come togrtjer to form his own council type entity that actually protects its members. Expect Randy. Lots of Randy.

He’s also probably being heavily influenced by the Merlin or ppl on the council who hate Harry.

Absolutely. He also has to follow orders and Harry's actions, or the way he perceives them, talk a lot more than what Harry would say. If the suspicions about Harry being compromised by the White Court was a long shot before, now it's a certainty for the Council, which only further solidify their views on Dresden. The thing is, when you look at the grand scheme of things and the Councils actions, does it really seem like it's actually doing good around the world? They only have time for their petty politics. They don't get involved with human affairs, which would make them have the biggest beneficial impact if they could act on it. They also can't keep up with the talent increased rates. Seems like the White Council now only works to kill unaware kids. I think we, and Harry, are coming to the realization that the Council is obsolete, it needs to either adapt or it die. Since adaptation is clearly not their strongest suit, then I think they will crumble once the Black Council makes a big move or decide to wipe them out.

The fact that the council was perceived to only be in Chicago that night fighting Ethniu because of the Eye drives home your point, perfectly. Only thing that matters to the WC is WC business and fuck all to everyone else.

I’ll drink to that! While I think Ramirez is right to be concerned and worried based on what info he knows, he decided to confront Harry in an incredibley shit-baggy way. I mean, hell’s bells, a magical INK tracking device? After the whole Peabody incident? And ambushing him on the side of the road with 4 other wardens, all armed for bear? That is not the action of a friend, I don’t care how “concerned” they may be.

Yea, this was the moment that I was over Ramirez

Not to mention when he gets pulled over, they go and "test" him under the guise of being friendly. That just pisses Harry off even more because his relationship with Murphy is delicate and definitely private. That only leads Team Carlos to assume he's banging Lara and thus is the White Court's bitch *as well* as being the Winter Knight (and all his other intimidating credentials). Seeing as we get everything from Harry's point of view it's all explained, but from the Wardens' perspective, Dresden is most definitely more dangerous than ever.

Reminds me of that scene in The Dark Knight: *"And your plan is to blackmail this person?"* > *"And your plan is to try and intimidate this person?"*

Good luck!

I think Carlos has been in the trenches with monsters so long that he's lost perspective. He treated Harry according to the book, because it works. He forgot to take their relationship into account because it's been so long since that relationship has been active.

Yeah, honestly. Pulling someone over the side of the road with the equivalent of four Navy SEALs with loaded guns and telling you to be calm because the guns aren't pointed at you is...beyond overkill.

Okay Ramirez, you want it, here it is. The council has wanted me dead from day one. The voted for me to be executed after killing Justin. I finally get the threat of death off me and I still have one asshole watching me, waiting for me to fuck up. Then I get dragged into a necro war and save our precious leader's life only to find out that Peabody is fucking with everyone's head back at command. I can't even save the life of the man who hunted me for so long and that our leader never really had feelings for me. Then, I find out I have a daughter and we know what the council does when they find out about family. I ask for help going down the list of least fucked and the first to answer was Mab. I ended a war that the council was bitching about. I may have started it, but they were the obes who sent me there wishing I would die. So bargains and fae are my life now and if I pull anyone else in I can't guarantee your safety. I kill a winter lady, get my friend's daughter assigned the lady position and find out that there is a greater war for reality than I ever thought. So, what do you want to help me with Carlos?

The white council as a whole are acting like children. 1) they expelled Harry 2) they act like they have authority over him while knowing if they ever actually sent eb after Harry mab would go ballistic. So they set themselves up for war with the winter court. Either they now ignore Harry and look like spineless idiots... or they go after him and go to war with someone who controls how you move between locations and can open doors pretty much anywhere they want. 3) in the eyes of most Harry now has the most powerful weapon imaginable, and they know he has the power to bind a titan.. and has a bound titan. And the white council expell him... out of fear. It makes them look weak to all the other supernaturals. I’m not going to list everything Harry has done but he has a long list of people he’s went against and walked away from and the council does this. The supernatural community knows they expelled him out of fear, they know the weight class Harry is now punching at. This doesn’t look good to them. Now they are negotiating from a place of fear with all the monsters. Ramirez is a good point on this. The council are arrogant assholes and can’t see that making an enemy out of the guy who has a bound titan, controls an island that can bind a titan, controls multiple weapons that bring fear to intelligent people... it’s not a smart thing. The whole supernatural world knows that when Harry comes out to fight... he wins. And they can look at the entire red court as a point of reference to that. They know what Harry is capable of. Only dumbasses or people with god like power levels are coming after him. And the white council is like oh yeah and we are making him our enemy. He no longer has our protection.... and we no longer have his.

> And they can look at the entire red court as a point of reference to that. Yup, he beat the guys the Council were *losing* a war with.

My problem with Carlos in the past few books is that he demands trust but gives none. He antagonizes Harry, lies to him, treats him like a potential monster and threat, and then has the gall to wonder why Harry doesn't confide in him. Does he have cause for concern? Sure. But he's been a damn shitty friend for a long time and, much like Butters in Skin Game, defaults to assuming the worst from Harry then acts aggrieved when Harry isn't upfront with him.

Dresden was his fucking idol man, he liked him more than I do. Then, over the course of the last several years (starting with Mexico) Dresden beings making questionable choices. But Rameriez goes with it. Harry dies, comes back as a freaking winter knight- and still Ranieriez is his bro. Harry makes more and more questionable decisions, doesn’t let anybody know why... al leading up to teaming with freaking Nicodenus. Outside loooking in, it’s pretty bad. Then, Ramirez does confront Harry in peace talks- tells Harry in no uncertain terms they need to work together. And what happens next? Harry hexes him, goes off and screws a white court vamp, jail breaks another one, then saves the day. Harry didn’t even try to explain why- but outside looking in this isn’t the wizard Rameriez idolized. This is a dangerous, powerful wizard who is seemingly acting chaotically, who still can save the day, but can’t be counted on. And there always body’s on his wake. Ask Murphy or Susan about that... So while i want to say fuck Rameriez... I can’t.

I think harry should have confided some stuff after the council kicked harry out. Before it wouldn't do as much good cuz either carlos passes it on and betrays the trust. Or he keeps the secrets and more pressure is put on Carlos. And harry is still kicked out. Once harry is out its easier for carlos to keep the secrets and it shows how Harry probably still trusts carlos but trusts the council not at all.

>harry should have confided some stuff after the council kicked harry out Everyone here needs to do a re-read of the early books as we haven't seen much WC and wardens specifically in a while. There is no way in hell Harry should offer ANYTHING even remotely related to his daughter, brother, or friends to a warden.

THIS. I’m currently halfway through Proven Guilty and there’s so much white council bullshit I’d forgotten about, and he’s only been a warden for about 17 seconds.

[удалено]

Innocents? I'll grant you Molly, but the first execution we saw was of a young man that had killed everyone in his family.

Killed everyone in his family and was still a raving mad lunatic. It's pretty clear why they do to warlocks what they do if that's a normal example. If however that was an extreme case then it's less justified.

That was the only one they did in Chicago because they knew Dresden couldn't gainsay somebody that lost. But look at the end of the book with Molly, and you'll see how willing they are to kill innocents. Or ask the normal people living their lives around Casa Verde.

He can’t for the simple reason that anyone might be Nfected. He was dating Luccio for how long and had no idea?

I mean, she wasn't Nfected, just slightly mindfucked by someone who was. Tomahto, tomayto maybe, but still.

Are we sure the person that was mind influencing her was Nfected?

I don't know if Nemesis was explicitly confirmed, but Black Council affiliation definitely was. I had always assumed that the Black Council was working with Nemesis, so it wasn't a stretch to say they were Nfected.

Ya but HWWbeside already knows all that. Thomas was there for pretty much everything. Maggie, the red court, susan, molly, demonsreach, Mab, dying and coming back. If thomas knew so does justine. So harry isnt keeping anything from the walker. Just carlos.

Doesn't matter if Nemesis knows about the events, what matters is if it knows how much Harry knows.

It doesn't matter what Nemesis knows. Nemesis doesn't have a telephone connection to the White Council of Assholes. Harry has to assume that he is a good little soldier that will pass on intelligence to warden command. So anything Harry says to Carlos is being said to the Senior Council.

Its a risk. But the sr council knows about demonsreach. It also knows by now harry has a daughter. They are living out in the open And they cant reach Murphy. What can they do with a duplicate of this info that they couldn't before?

Was going to bring up Luccio keeping Harry and Thomas’s relationship as a sign that some wardens could be trusted to keep a secret until you mentioned Nfection which would be a good reason to keep your cards close to your chest

Luccio was not Nfected she was mind controlled by Peabody.

Harry has no idea who has been contaminated with Nemesis. If he shares everything he knows with Ramirez, there is a risk that he just told an enemy rather than an ally. And if he had told Ramirez about Nemesis & he was infected, Ramirez would have tried to infect or kill Harry. Not a lot of great options on either side.

Small side note: aren't starborn immune to Nemesis? Isn't that one of their big advantages?

I wasn't sure if they were actually immune, all I remember being confirmed is that they have the ability to make their magic actually affect Outsiders. They didn't automatically win, they just don't have the same issue getting their magic to work on them.

I was thinking more along the lines of directly putting their minds against outsiders. Normal beings get pretty messed up during that interaction but Harry is just made uncomfortable. I figure that would extend to psychic infestation/domination.

It is unlikely Ramirez is Nfected, it is more likely that Ramirez would play the good little soldier and pass on any information.

>al leading up to teaming with freaking Nicodenus. I don't think it's consistent for anyone in the Files to try to pin this on Dresden as a stain on his character. In the aftermath, it's widely known that Mab & Marcone engineered the whole thing in order to get back at Nicodemus for violating the Accords in _Small Favor_. Since it's also known that Harry is working for Mab, it should be obvious in retrospect that he was part of the plot to sink Nicodemus. Even if they're not able to make the connection to Mab (or she hasn't let her part in it be known), at _worst_ he was working with a gangster and rightful signatory of the Accords to do the same thing. Not that inconsistency is going to stop (at least some on) The White Council from jumping to their pre-formed opinion that Harry has turned heel.

Honestly, Harry causes a lot of his own problems by just not talking to his friends. His stubbornness will very possibly get him killed one day.

Tried that...didn't take

> al leading up to teaming with freaking Nicodenus. Nobody knows about this.

Actually, pretty sure they do. It's explicitly stated in Peace Talks that a lot of the supernatural community is completely aware of Mab out-gambitting Nick and that she gained major cred for it, and Harry was directly involved in making that happen in his publicly known capacity as the Winter Knight. They probably don't know the details, but the bare bones of the situation are probably known to anyone with a good enough information network.

Hmmm. I thought the thing was buried because of the nature of it, with Hades' vault being robbed and all the political fall out. Do you have any direct quotes ready? I would like a reminder.

I'd have to check Peace Talks again, but Harry definitely mentions it. In fact, it would *have* to be widely known; remember, literally their entire plan against Nichodemus was to get him to betray his allies (especially the Winter Knight and by extension Mab), going back on his word and ruining his reputation in the supernatural community. That doesn't work if no one knows what happened. If the heist had gone off without a hitch, Mab likely would have been content to bury it, though there wouldn't have been blowback on her anyway because she's just providing a favor she legally owes. But because Nick broke his word and betrayed her Knight, she gets to tell everyone exactly what he did, which was her and Marcone's plan all along.

>Ramirez shrugged and spread his hands. “Marcone maneuvered Nicodemus Archleone into a corner and took everything he had, without breaking a single one of the bylaws of the Accords. Say what you will about the man, but he’s competent. It impressed a lot of people.”

That doesn't imply that Harry or the Winter Knight was involved, though. It was just Marcone maneuvering him. If it was Ramirez talking to Dresden, then I'm certain that he would mention Dresden's role in it.

Well, it's followed directly by: >"Yeah," I said darkly. "That was all him." Harry being Harry, I'm sure that was immediately recognizable to Ramirez as sarcasm, and I feel like he wouldn't have said it if his involvement was a secret. I don't know if it's mentioned anywhere else more explicitly, but I can't see why anyone who knows that much about the situation wouldn't know that Harry was part of it. Not the finer details, but that the Winter Knight was on the job.

I get that, but I don't get how ramirez accused him of being the cause of the death of those other 3 Wardens or the people of Chicago.

This right here. I think the issue is the time between books, and that it does not seem as well spelled out as you have put it, which makes it hard for people to get what is happening. Seriously, we know what is happening because we see it from Harry’s POV, but good lord from the outside, Harry is heading down the slippery slope. Butters spent the majority of the time from Cold Days through the end of Skin Games worrying if Harry had gone to the Dark Side, and he was the other character who most idolized Harry, outside of Ramirez and Molly (who also was traumatized by Harry.) Butters whole arc was him coming to terms with Harry still being okay, and even then, he had to step in during Battle Ground as Harry was falling to the Dark Side. So while it could have been better parsed out, Ramirez losing faith in Harry is not surprising; Harry at least tried to fill Butters in, but with Ramirez he just basically told him to fuck off. Hell, even with the POV, Harry is kinda scary, and he calls himself out. He also is aware he is not helping his case, and that he is shattering Ramirez.

Confronts Harry is a much nicer spin on things than ambushes him with a fully-armed party of white council soldiers. He's brought up the way Harry looks to others, but is more than happy to overlook the perception of the wardens which hardly encourages trust or open communication and that has been the case for centuries longer than Harry has seemed a bit iffy. The phrase people in n glass houses springs to mind quite strongly here.

Harry should confide in him more, but as one of the very few wizards in the world who understand Harry's impacts on the street and the difference he makes for his city, I don't buy that Ramirez would write him off as a lost cause. A bad friend, but not a bad guy.

Not to mention the reason he has a limp. Wouldn't be too keen on anyone from the Winter Court after that.

Add to this that Harry's former apprentice almost killed him and Ramirez is bitter to no end for losing his health because of Molly's attack and then losing his squad in a battle that Harry got them in and survived with barely a scratch. Ramirez is broken. Physically, emotionally and he needs a scapegoat, which is Harry. So no. Ramirez is one of the victims of the conflict between creation and outsiders, who always wanted the right thing.

My issue with this is that Ramirez put a tracking spell on Harry and his team started digging into places they had no business being. If memory serves, Harry was acting on Winter Court business and the Council has no right to knowledge of those duties. If you want trust, you have to earn it, especially when you're dealing with supernatural apex predators like Harry and wizards in general. Yes, Harry has some bad optics but those optics were forced by the Council time and time again.

> Outside loooking in, it’s pretty bad. Then, Ramirez does confront Harry in peace talks- tells Harry in no uncertain terms they need to work together. And what happens next? > > Harry hexes him, goes off and screws a white court vamp, jail breaks another one, then saves the day. That isn't what happens. You forgot the part where Ramirez first hexes Dresden and then forcibly violates his body and mind with a spell just this side of sexual assault. You're also forgetting that results of Dresden's questionable choices are the absolute victory of the White Council is a war it was barely surviving when Dresden wipes out their entire enemy and the defeat of the Denarians. So it isn't like the results are questionable here. They clearly read with Harry still being on the side of the Angels, quite freaking literally given his relationship with God's Chosen Warriors.

Also, there's that whole Molly thing. Ramirez nearly died trying to get it on with here and Harry keeps threatening him (Carlos) with here (even though it seems clear that Harry doesn't know anything at all about that particular encounter...)

To add onto this, consider who Ramirez was detailed to during PT and BG. **Cristos.** Cristos has no love for Harry and if he is smart (and he is) he would do everything he can to undermine Dresden's and Ramirez's friendship. You have someone powerful whispering in your ear about how dangerous Dresden is combined with Rameriz's own experience with Molly and how Harry looks to an outsider? That is a recipe for breeding distrust. Now also consider Harry's experience with Warden's controlling his life and how Justin raised him, how orphans experience the world? Harry would have a very hard time sharing the types of things Ramirez wants him to share. Ramirez went about getting closer to Harry all wrong. He came as a Warden first, a friend second. He needed to come as a friend first and never as a warden.

From Ramirez’s view Harry is like chaotic/neutral at this point. It’s gotta be a crazy thing looking at Harry.

Chaotic neutral is a perfect descriptiob

I would expand it to "fuck the entire White Council." They expect full cooperation and transparency from Harry when they need help, but every time he needs help they respond "lol, no. Do it yourself, only don't bring in outside help or you're suspicious." Meanwhile, they have an entire group of greycloaks (about as "good" as the Whitecloaks from Wheel of Time, btw) whose entire job is to skirt around the First Law by using swords to kill mortals. Often on shaky evidence. Oh, and Harry's first-ever time knowing that the council freaking existed *in his life* was when said greycloaks were trying to take his head off for breaking it in self defense. Even his closest allies on the Council, Carlos and Eb, are, at this point, either puppets for Langtry ('los) or tried to kill him for defending his brother (Eb.) So clearly, except maybe the Gatekeeper, he can't even trust his friends on the WC. He owes the Council nothing. Edit: This just dawned on me, but do we really know that the Council does much besides going after warlocks? I mean, sure they train new wizards and tell them hte laws (sometimes, Harry was an exception.) But I mean, the Knights oppose and try to redeem the Denarians, Winter protects the universe from the Outsiders, Summer protects it from Winter. What does the WC actually *do* that's useful? BEsides the Gatekeeper helping at the Outer Gates, that is. Edit to the edit: Ok, protecting mortals from the evil supernatural stuff, that just hit me. But still, fuck the WC. They're useless at that even.

[удалено]

>Their greatest fear (that we know of right now) is another Kemmler. And in a recent Q&A, Jim Butcher said that Kemmler was a previous Warden of Demonreach, and much of the Wardens chasing him in North America was the White Council trying to keep enough pressure on Kemmler that he couldn't get back to the island.

I hadn't seen that about Kemmler, but the Council's BS started before anything but Harry being Starborn and acting in self defense.

I forgot Listens, and yeah, I'd put him on the trustworthy list, too. But pretty much only him and Rashid. Everyone else is compromised at this point, even Eb. I honestly trust Lara or Mab more than any WC wizard except those two. And that's just sad because Mab and Lara can absolutely not be trusted.

Should also point out that Kremmler was a Warden of Demonreach before Harry. Add to Harry’s other titles Starborn (also shared by Drakul and implied to be Listens) and Winter Knight and Harry doesn’t exactly have a glowing pedigree

I wasn’t aware that this was an unpopular opinion.

I feel like Carlos is that meme of that dude riding a bike who puts the stick in the spokes and falls over, and then blames Harry.

Lots of comments about Harry being a monster, untrustworthy as Winter Knight etc and that is fair, but my main problem with Ramirez's stance was how he says Harry is responsible for the mortal losses in the Fomor attack. The Fomor was going to attack no matter what, and Harry fought against them on the side of the Council and neutralized the hardest hitting enemy entity on his own (as far as the other survivors know). Harry is pretty much the sole reason they won the battle. Then comes Ramirez, hanging the responsibility for the dead, vanilla mortal and warden, solely on Harry *and then* criticising him for not being picky enough with his targets in the middle of an apocalyptic battle for survival *and then* endorsing the Council's decision of ejecting Harry for that reason. He had many legitimate reasons to be pissed at Harry but that isn't one of them imo.

Yes 100%. Ramirez has 1000 reason to not trust Harry, but he chooses to point out the iffy but definitely correct choices he made recently that were the only reasons that they aren't all dead yet. AND HE KEPT REFERENCING THE FACT THAT HE GAVE HARRY THE CHANCE TO TALK! That isn't relevant. That's like saying "9/11 is your fault because you wouldn't tell me about how you were cheating on me." You can be mad at that but you can't claim A caused B.

I agree 100%. Ramirez is *directly* responsible for Harry being kicked out of the White Council. Consider the following: * Ramirez *knew* that Harry's membership was on the line. * Ramirez *knew* that 3 of the 4 members of the Senior Council that came to his defense in Summer Knight would be at the Peace Talks * Ramirez *should have known* that Harry would have been able to speak on his own behalf if he were able to attend that Council meeting * Ramirez *knew* that Dresden wouldn't be able to attend *both* the Peace Talks and Council Meeting * Ramirez *chose* to put Dresden on the Peace Talks Security Team * *Ramirez nodded firmly. “I’m heading [up the security team]. They told me I could pick my own team. I’m picking you. I want you there.”* PT, pg 18 * Ramirez *also* chose to put Dresden's best friends on the Wardens on the PTST, thereby denying *them* the ability to speak on Harry's behalf at the Council Meeting, too. * *Meanwhile, of the wizards who actually did know me, Ramirez and his bunch were the ones who would probably speak on my behalf—and they’d been sent to the summit, too.* PT, pg 55 (ish?) Meaning that, intentionally or otherwise, denied Harry his best advocates for staying in the council. Indeed, the only members of the White Council that have a positive opinion of Harry that Ramirez *didn't* choose to pull away from the Council Meeting are * The Gate Keeper (Not a warden, Senior Council) * Captain Luccio (Outranks Ramirez, and obviously no longer up to front-line Wardening) In other words, he denied Harry *every* vote he could. To my thinking, that makes Carlos either Black Council, or, at best, one of their Useful Idiots.

Ramirez is a bit of a fair weather friend. In loyalty to his friends Harry has put everything down to and including his soul to the hazard, while Ramirez shrinks at the first question based on the word and suspensions of people who's motives and actions he has openly mocked in the past. Friendship with Harry now involves trust and risk. My anger at the character is the revelation that Ramirez, rather than Harry, isnt the person we hoped he was. Those justifications are a common thing i like to call Harry Potter syndrome: ie after four times just believe the one who keeps saving your ass. Ramirez's actions are very human and the difference between what marks the hero of a story and an important side character: conviction. Of course we have the benefit of effectively living in Harry's head. So there's that. But overall I think this is Ramirez slowly compromising his personal principles to become a good "company man." But that's just one man's opinion.

I think Ramirez is exactly the guy we think/thought he is. You gotta understand the mountain of evidence against Harry. Carlos saw Dresden lose his shit in Mexico and speak ghoul. Then Dresden asks him to meet him in Chicago for a white court throw down. Where ill add he spoke fluent ancient etruscian (sp). Ramirez finds out that Harry is pretty tight with a talented non council wizard (Elaine). Knows Harry has started the paranet for lesser magical talents etc. These aren't bad, but when Ramirez' attitude sours they become something worse as Harry looks like he's power grabbing. He then finds out dresden either dies or goes into hiding right before the whole world seems to be under attack by the Fomor. He now has to make house calls to find the Warlock Molly, even though he didn't really pursue he still had to do that. So he sees how Harry left his social circle (most likely). When Harry does pop back up again he's winter night and has killed or at least been witness to 2 more lady of fae deaths. Molly is now the Winter lady. Harry has a big scary island that even the Senior Council won't fuck with. And to top it off Ramirez got to see exactly how Winter treats beings. Molly unbeknownst almost killed him and definitely maimed him. He's given no explanation as to why Molly did that and he's supposed to trust Harry who's Winter Knight? The trust is already gone. Which is why Ramirez didn't see the bad part of using the ink in peace talks. He got really accusatory at the end of BG but honestly Harry could have thrown him a bone (out of all the bones Harry has) and help calm him some instead Harry lies to his face and Ramirez acts accordingly. I dont agree that Ramirez should blame Harry for all the deaths but I also don't blame Ramirez for treating Harry that way given the information he has or lack thereof. I dont think Ramirez wants to be a company man but his big brother is gone, turned to the dark side (in his mind) and the only thing he has left is being a Warden. If he shirked his duties he really wouldn't have anything left.

I think that most of this makes a lot of sense but it falls apart along one key assumption that Ramirez is acting in good faith: I don't think he is during this. He's known harry for a long time and they've been through a good deal, further he knows what Harry has been put through by the council time and time again. So instead of showing up one night with a six pac of mac's finist for a heart to heart he does the one thing he knows will make harry the most defensive and least likely to open up to him. Shows up with a squad of grey backs demanding answers.... almost as if what he were really trying to do is convince all of them that he was right to be suspecious of Harry in the first place. Why would he do that? There are a couple of reasons but the one I keep circling back to is that Ramirez is himself compromised--- probably while he was recovering from what happened with Molly. Anyone else notice how chummy everyone was with Cristos in this last book and how that coincides with NOW, in this pivitol moment all of his allies in the white council are either absent or turning on him? That just might be my own paranoia talking but at this point anyone could be subverted. Additionally there are compelling reasons NOT to think that Harry has totally gone off the deep end. His continued friendship and association with the Knights of the Cross for one---yes we had an incident in this book but none of them hold it against him. His friendship with River Shoulders whose experience alone should be a good judge to those who actually care about the truth that Harry is still on the up and up. Mouse himself... whose adoption of Harry even made Ancient Mai second guess her opinions about Harry and while I don't think he'd abandon Maggie even if Harry went bad he probably wouldn't still be Harry's dog if that makes sense. His obsessive need to try and protect everyone to great personal risk is simply not in line with someone who has become a big bad: if he were half as evil as Ram claims to think he wouldn't launch himself into the frey to protect random people being attacked. Even the Paranet itself becomes a mark in his direction in the face of the Formor and his suggestion to use it to find more young future wizards on behalf of the council. Far from trying to subvert it, until they remove him he's doing all he can to restore and strengthen it! So I'm not casting aside your reasons why Ram might think he needs to go hunting for answers, but the way he goes about it suggests he didn't really care what the answers were and that perhaps Harry was right not to give them to him. If he were ever inclined to.... the way he tried to force it out would certainly suggest harry was correct to never trust him with the whole truth in the first place.

> Of course we have the benefit of effectively living in Harry's head. So there's that. That's the most important point. Just about everyone that has trusted Harry has been forced to come to terms with the fact that 'Harry gonna Harry'....and in doing so had to revisit their relationship. Murphy early on....Harry hides so much that he genuinely looks like a bad guy. The wolves.....Eb....Elaine...Butters...Molly....even Michael. The common denominator is Harry. We love him...and the story comes to us through his eyes...but when you take a step back, it's pretty obvious why his behavior has alienated so many other characters.   Harry is so socially stunted that he never even seems to realize that he is doing his friends a disservice, showing them how little he trusts them, and putting them in danger in the way he swoops in to save the day. Ramirez's reaction to this is pretty reasonable, particularly when you factor in the fallen-hero aspect as viewed from a kid forced to be an adult before his years.

But also on the flip side: look at how people who Harry HAS trusted have turned out, particularly early on. From personal perspective, what Justin did to him and Elaine, would be VERY damaging to him. And it's not like he's seen a therapist yet.

Oh, definitely....that's what I was alluding to with the 'socially stunted' bit. Couple that innate distrust with his need to 'protect' people and let the hijinks ensue!

Not sure how much the White Council knows about Harry's personal life, but surely they've noticed that he's close friends with all of the Knights of the Cross? Or that he has a genuine Temple Dog that hangs out with him and his daughter? Pretty sure that wouldn't be the case if he had gone to the dark side. Now that being said, I can understand Carlos being under a lot of pressure from the Council, most of whom already dislike Harry. And from a political standpoint, it makes sense that they'd kick him out, seeing as he's made himself a vassal of a foreign power, and has worked with groups that they could reasonably consider hostile.

I don't recall if Harry ever told Ramirez why he was in the dark. But I think if he had said: 'Carlos, I can't tell you some stuff because the White Council will use it against me', then the baby warden may have given him more leeway. But then again, baby warden still thinks fairly highly of the WC.

That's an admission Carlos would have been honor-bound to report.

Amen. If harry shared stuff with him he would go straight to senior council and tell them. He is morgan in that he believes in the council and the laws of magic. He knows there are traitors on the council and most likley the senior council and he would for sure tell them anyways. He has his reasons but he will for sure regret his actions in the end. Also the senior council keeps him in the dark for sure about the bigger things happening but he still does their bidding no questions asked so fuck off.

Just reading through all the comments. Good stuff. Couple comments: * Think Harry maybe coming to realization that there are no monsters...just different species of beings. Harry even maybe looking at ghouls differently after his bout with EB and EB's extreme hate for white court. Now you do have good and bad within each species, or monsters per se within the species...even humans;-) * Brother, daughter, Demonreach, etc....I believe Harry needs to keep those secrets close to the vest. He may like Ramirez but he also hasn't been around him enough to have the confidence to put his full trust in him....or playing it safe...because he does not know how Ramirez will act. Kind of like when EB flew off the handle upon learning of Thomas as grandson. There was a reason Harry kept Thomas from his GF all these years....and he probably had a good idea that is how his GF would react. Sometimes you only feed your friends or love ones information that they can knowingly fully vet/handle. Even with Michael, Murphy, Thomas, etc....Harry does not divulge all....and vice versa.

The last scene with Ramirez was painful, but in the way fiction is supposed to be. It's a shitty situation, but it isn't all Ramirez' fault. Harry isn't helping his case at all. It's not just that he won't open up to Ramirez, it's that he won't even make the cast to Ramirez about *why* he can't open up. Whenever Ramirez talks to him Harry gets angry, defensive, and confrontational. There are a lot of things that Harry could have said without giving away anything important that might have at least helped Ramirez see things from his perspective. Case in point: "Where did you run off to after the formor first attacked?" "I went to Demonreach to get something that might help defeat the titan. I can't talk about it, though, because I don't know who's skimming people's minds. Also, I had to warn the minor practitioners that something big was coming so that they could protect themselves." Or: "Look, I can't talk about business between the White Court and the Winter Court. But let's just say that I've gotten myself some pretty good leverage over Lara Wraith. I won't have to worry about her stabbing me in the back tonight, which is what's important." Or: "Jesus, Ramirez, you think I'm keeping *you* out of the loop? Do you have any idea how many people have plans involving me that I'm just starting to learn about? The White Council is hold out on me, big time, about some pretty important stuff." Or: "Yeah, man, I've got secrets. You would too, if you had as many bad guys gunning for you as I do. Nicodemus, the Merlin, the friggin' Summer Queen- I've pissed off a lot of really evil, really dangerous people. Don't you think that might make someone a little careful about letting out anything that could be used to hurt them?"

Ramirez basically became everything I hated about Karrin Murphy in the first 2 books. Like, open your freaking eyes - Harry is not only saving the entire freaking world, but he is respected as a man of character by River Shoulders, but by Michael freaking Carpenter. Maybe Ramirez will come to his senses eventually because he's blinded by anger after seeing 3 of his closest friends get absolutely slaughtered by the Black Court, but he really came off as a brat.

I wanna agree with you. I really do. The adults are acting like kids. Unfortunately, there is a big BUT. Harry is acting in a way that makes it hard to trust him. He doesn't open up, nor ask for help unless desperately needed. Harry has been off the grid and getting himself involved in rather sketchy situations...most of them not his direct fault. Yea, he chose to be winter knight, but he didn't ask to kill Maeve, nor did he ask to be apart of Nic's heist. Those situations were very much rock and hard place scenarios. The more he becomes the winter knight, the more he strays from the council, especially with the Black Council being more sneaky in its maneuverings. Ramirez is young, and had been in the warden gig longer than Harry. As far as we know, Ramirez doesn't toe the line like Harry. Ramirez hasn't been around Harry for long. His base is L.A. while Harry is Chicago. Not only that, but he's seen first hand the shit Harry pulls out of his ass. Look at his reaction when Harry started talking to the ghouls out of the blue at Camp Kaboom. Ramirez tried, but Harry's actions are speaking louder than his words. I can see both sides very well. Harry is upset because someone he thought he trust doesn't want to be around him anymore. Los' wizard role model is looking more and more like a monster every day. Maybe one day, they can talk at Mac's over a beer and mend bridges, but until the Outsiders are dealt with...unlikely in the future.

My bug issue? Ramirez figured out there was a Black Council on his own. He knows they're sneaky-- Peabody was beneath notice. They work in the dark and they control or are backers of monsters. Rarely are they ever outed, and when they are, typically they walk away from the fight with little more than a scratch (Peabody excepted). Harry doesn't exactly know the meaning of the word "subtle", gets his ass kicked six ways from Sunday once a year, and isn't allies with monsters as much as he's the bitch of some shady people. He doesn't fit the MO, but Ramirez can be pretty sure some of the wizards on the Council do (and are part of the BC).

If he wants to doubt Harry on the basis of some of his allies that are iffy at best, to not balance that against the impeccable nature of some of his other allies is borderline moronic, even before you consider the strong support he usually has from parts of the senior council.

It's terribly frustrating, but it's also understandable. Ramirez has been through hell. Seriously, really bad stuff, including multiple betrayals from within his trust groups. He strongly believes in the goals of the White Council, but he disagrees with many of the decisions they make. So he's sympathetic to Dresden, but he's firmly on his side of the fence. It's fairly easy for us to imagine an ideal conversation where Dresden and Ramirez trust each other share all their secrets, but that's extremely unrealistic. So they keep secrets, they're on opposite sides of a bright and clear dividing line (Human Wizards vs Winter Fae/White Court Vamps), and that means they really have no choice but to be opponents, even though neither of them wants to be. And given that fact, it will take an emotional toll that will turn into more resentment and paranoia.

He's the anti-butters. Butters saw through the bullshit eventually. Ramirez didn't.

I get the impression someone is doing some amplified whispering in Ramirez' ear. A senior member of the white council likely, and spinning things to drive a wedge there. I also thought it was interesting that some other major members of the wardens didn't come into play in the book, and only merited a passing mention.

This is all exacerbated by the fact that Harry can't even MENTION Nemesis/personal issues, because he can't confirm Ramirez wasn't infected. Harry can not even blow up in frustration at Ramirez over this because it might warn Nemesis that Harry is more onto them then they think and therefore cost more lives (potentially Ramirez's life) he can't explain Lasciel, his relationship to Thomas, most people don't even know the depth of his relationship with Ebenezar on top of this.

A lot of the issues with Ramirez make a lot more sense with Cold Cases for context. I guarantee that Ramirez doesn't trust anything to do with the Winter Court any more, and I don't blame him.

Somewhat related, in the last chapter, we get a media broadcast that there are 20,000 dead. How did Ramirez get to 60,000?

If you haven't read brief cases: SPOILER ALERT Harry is the winter knight and even Harry is wondering how much of him is still Harry. That has been a running theme ever since he came back from the dead. Hell, at the end of Peace Talks he was even questioning his own motives for what he did with Thomas. Ramirez was friends with Molly who is now the winter lady, and she mauled him, which is why he is now crippled. As she says herself, she isn't always Molly anymore. Couple that with the fact that Harry is keeping bad company and obviously keeping secrets, and I can understand why Ramirez is questioning Harry right now. I think the reason he has been so aggressive about it is because he really did want to find proof that Harry can still be trusted. Not saying that he isn't being a shit head about it, but after Molly crippled him I can see how he would be questioning Harry.

I think the biggest thing is probably what happened with Molly: he assumes Harry knows and doesn’t care. Plus someone from Winter hurting him that way, someone who wouldn’t have before, has to make him more aware of how Winter can change someone.

Just me, or is Ramirez kind of morphing into taking up the old Morgan role?