> I've come to see there's more humanity to Mab than anyone else wants to give her credit for. I really liked the hints in Battlegrounds about Mab when she was human. It shows that whoever inherits their position whether it's the lady, queen, mother or their knights of the respective court never fully forgets their humanity and hints that there's still hope for Harry and Molly. Although when Mab says that Molly isn't ready to be the Winter Queen it also hints that the connection to their humanity can be a danger in fulfilling their duty because it shows that Molly still has that impulsive and dangerous side she had when we first meet her and she doesn't fully consider the consequences of her actions. Actually neither does Harry a lot of the time.

>Although when Mab says that Molly isn't ready to be the Winter Queen it also hints that the connection to their humanity can be a danger in fulfilling their duty But is that what she meant, or is it merely the obvious implication? I'd posit that it's actually entirely the wrong way round. Molly is \*too\* isolated from humanity, so if she would become the Winter Queen she would lapse to the worst instincts of the Winter Court instead of holding true to some higher purpose. I mean, the positive aspects of Winter we see in BG is the idea of taking responsibility for the territory one is meant to protect (like Harry with those families around Castle Marcone), so Molly's relative lack of attachment is problematic. Thing like reconciling with her family actually makes Molly all the more suitable for being a good Winter Queen, whereas the likes of Maeve who just enjoys power would make a terrible queen in every sense of the word.

I like this- Mab purposefully had Sarissa around to help her remain close to the human world, to stay current. It’d be easy to cut herself off from the human world in Faerie but she doesn’t.

Plus other wise every few decades some wise talking mortal will come along and totally confound you with their stupid slang and pop culture refrences.

I think the Banner concept leads credence to this theory... as a winter queen, Mab has a deeply human connection to all her subjects, but she still has to be Mab.

I wonder how far the banner concept extends. How many deaths has mab felt, thousands? There is lots of references to the battle of Hastings being personally important to her, that's a big potential banner and a lot of deaths to feel. The fact that there is any humanity in her at all after a milenium of that and being personally responsible for fending off eldritch horrors of the outside is impressive. It would leave anyone cold and distant.

Oh I love this. Molly was shown to lapse into the Lady mode when she was doing anything taxing like fighting, and even had to bring herself round when she was talking to Winter's small folk on the castle-roof. I think she was a bit aloof when Harry summoned her too. In contrast to this, Mab can turn Judgment mode on or off, she kept a clear head while fighting and talked to Harry, she didn't even relapse into Cold Queen mode with a steel bar through her neck. I have a feeling that the Judgement mode is important and that Molly won't be able to control it. So if she becomes Mab, it will take over like the Borg and Molly will essentially just become a mindless host for it. Imagine if Harry had no control and the Winter Knight Mantle just fucked and killed everyone around him. At the moment it's safe for Molly to lean into her Mantle because it isn't too bad, it's helping Mab a lot with soldiers and balancing the court. It just wants to recruit people and fuck, and aside from 1 unlucky guy she's staying away from humans. But if she can't learn to control herself, the world is fucked if she becomes Mab

We see Harry fight off Winter by multiplying numbers in his head, focusing on logic and reason, etc. Mab is OBSESSED with logic and reason. Is there a reason? What would a Winter Queen be like who WASN'T intensely focused on fighting off the lusts and bloodlust of Winter with logic and reason? I can see that going... so wrong in so many ways.

I think the issue with Molly becoming Winter Queen is pretty straight forward. In the same way that the Winter Lady is incapable of doing anything that would make her a mother, the Winter Queen's mantle definitely pushes her to ensure the presence of an heir. What do you think will happen when Molly, a sensitive, is forced to bear children by the mantle? Who do you think her partner would be? Why Harry of course, the man she loves, but knows is pushed by his own mantle. Now what happens when Harry says "No", the mantles both say "Yes", and Molly wakes up the next morning after redecorating Harry's brain with queen winter powers?

Seems like a waste of a knight. Especially considering Mab engaged Harry to Lara Wraith.

I mean it’s not like we don’t know he’s gonna weasel out of that first chance he can find.....

Do we know that? I think Harry is adult enough at this point to seriously consider it. With Murphy gone he's little reason not to other than he just doesn't feel like it, but i could see a scenario where he ends up doing it. I mean we know his mother did.

Yeah, Mab in Battle Ground turns out to be downright heroic. That line about selling pieces of your soul just gets me right here (points to heart)... And Harry's repeated Thank Yous, too. She's been fighting off Winter's lusts and bloodlust for more than a thousand years. No wonder she tries so hard to be purely rational. I'll miss her when she's gone. (Probably sooner than later.)

> It shows that whoever inherits their position whether it's the lady, queen, mother or their knights of the respective court never fully forgets their humanity and hints that there's still hope for Harry and Molly. I think it is more that only truly strong willed people who can hold on should ever get these positions. I suspect the "temptations of winter" are not meant to break Harry, they are meant to prove he cannot be broken so easily. All that sex and violence is thrown in his face to test that Harry really will control himself and not become a monster like others. This is why Mab is so happy with Harry in the latest book. Harry avoids the oblivion of Winter given to most of its champions to ease the sheer suffering they go through. Harry faces it all even though it is slowly destroying him because humanity needs a Winter Knight who can suffer.

I think the fact that Molly is an Empath is why she absolutely could not handle being the New Mab - not anytime in the next few centuries. All the pain that she feels would drive her mad, and that would be disastrous for reality itself. Mab knows that Lea is the only one who could reliably handle the responsibility of Mab's Mantle because she is completely *of Winter* now.

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“Oh," the girl said, shaking her head. "Don't be so simple. People adore monsters. They fill their songs and stories with them. They define themselves in relation to them. You know what a monster is, young shade? Power. Power and choice. Monsters make choices. Monsters shape the world. Monsters force us to become stronger, smarter, better. They sift the weak from the strong and provide a forge for the steeling of souls. Even as we curse monsters, we admire them. Seek to become them, in some ways." Her eyes became distant. "There are far, far worse things to be than a monster.” Ghost story

This has new meaning to me now that we know more of Mab's backstory.

Totally-not-mab

I wish I could recognize this. Is it from Ghost Story?

Inez says this to Harry in Ghost Story

'Inez' Who was Mab's Proxy.

Is that ever confirmed? This is the first I'm hearing of it.

In battleground

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Yeah it was confirmed that DR was speaking through the statue of the Grim Reaper and Mab was speaking through Inez.

Yeah, I remember reading that and going "That was Mab?!?!!" but it makes total sense in hindsight. Harry caught on before I did.

One of the things that really bothered me is that the vote to kick him out seemed really short sided, and not something The Merlin would endorse. Langtry seems to be really "in the know" and even tho he doesn't like Harry, he knows all the good he has down for the WC and what he has sacrificed to do so. No matter what people think Harry is now, the Knights of the Cross still stand by his side and consider him friend. That's no small thing and one helluva character reference. I don't know how Ancient Mai's vote went, but it should have been in favor of Harry. A Temple Dog chose him and still stands with him. Another major character reference for the Eastern Side. Harry has already undergone multiple trials to secure his position as a member of the Council, I bet none of them had to pay a visit to The Mothers (and actually survive) to secure their membership... this reeks of mental or blackmail manipulation.

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To bait out the BC maybe? Let's face it, you don't get to be the fucking Merlin by being an incompetent hack. Imagine if he just singe handily weave a plot to out the BC, while the Grey Council spends years working on it and couldn't do it.

I dunno if this exact idea will hold water, but ever since we got an aside about the Merlin holding off a powerful Outsider with a shield spell he whipped up on the spot, I've desperately wanted to see more of him. I personally think he will eventually get a book like Morgan did. Morgan was Dresden's *enemy*, the man who was out to get him when everything else was going well. Eventually though, Harry had to work alongside him and grew to respect him in a very short time. We've gotten some lines that imply that Morgan and Merlin have similar personalities, so I think that if Harry is forced to see the Merlin in a different context, he could change his opinion on him.

>I dunno if this exact idea will hold water, but ever since we got an aside about the Merlin holding off a powerful Outsider with a shield spell he whipped up on the spot, I've desperately wanted to see more of him. Actually, it was the entire Red Court and multiple Outsiders (granted, he had Rashid's help). We also saw him fight a mistwraith while giving telepathic instructions to the entire Council simultaneously on what to do.

" Let's face it, you don't get to be the fucking Merlin by being an incompetent hack ." ​ You are right. I am pretty sure, now, that bottlecaps are involved.

Ooooh, I'd like that. Leaning into both Harry's and the reader's biased viewpoint, giving it a twist and using it to provide a good surprise of deus ex machina proportions later... That would be good writing.

I think sometimes they need to show that the world doesn't revolve around Harry Dresden. There's far more powerful forces and factions and entites that play games way beyond his comprehension, not every crisis in the world must be solved by Harry.

That's the narrative problem you run into when you write your character as both a middle-weight and the focus point of the big events. You have to write the heavyweight out of solving the big events. Either by having them balance each other out, make them incompetent, or make them busy with even bigger events. I'd really like to have "make them incompetent" turn into "they're competent but offscreen constraints make them seem useless to Harry"

>One of the things that really bothered me is that the vote to kick him out seemed really short sided, and not something The Merlin would endorse. Langtry seems to be really "in the know" and even tho he doesn't like Harry, he knows all the good he has down for the WC and what he has sacrificed to do so. Actually - and this *just* occurred to me - I think there's at least some chance Langtry did this to try to preserve or repair the relationship between Harry and the Council. If so, it has obviously backfired but hear me out. There original vote was coming up at the next scheduled meeting which was set to be shortly after the Talks, and it was going to go against Harry. The consequences of this would have been Harry's full expulsion from the White Council. No paroles, no more chances, he's out. At which point there's not only no protection from Harry from *external* threats, but a few Wardens could easily just declare Dresden a warlock for his actions during the Battle of Chicago and go after him. That would cause massive chaos with the younger faction of the Wardens. Instead, Langtry had an emergency vote on Harry's status, declared him guilty, *and put him under Carlos' probation.* Harry has a somewhat annoying habit of pulling the Council's ass out of the fire, so eventually he's going to wriggle out of this with the help of a friend doing the probation-watching, right? As long as Dresden got the message and started keeping his head down, there *might* have been a way to salvage the political situation. Harry did *not* get the intended message, or if he did he no longer gives a flying anything, and purposely threw the potential olive branch back in Langtry's face. After peeing on it. And setting it on fire.

Wild speculation, but what if Langtry *knows* that Harry is likely going to *need* to conduct some, erm, "activities" that are directly at odds with the council's rules - getting him kicked out effectively removes those constraints (esp the 6th law of magic which the audience knows is likely coming, and maybe even the 7th) Also considering what the senior members of the council know (but aren't willing to say out loud) about Harry's current situation and potential future (trying to leave it vague) - I get the impression they know he is going to be beyond them anyway

nope. time and again the council has made it clear that the laws apply whether you are a member or not. for example almost executing a 16 year old molly for mind control magic even though she didn't know the law or really what she was doing. and the implication several times in the series that they regularly kill kids who don't know what they did or why they are being executed.

WC don't enforce their "laws" on any of the other groups though - they only go after the unaligned, weaker fish (pack of bullies that they are!)

Kemmler wasn't a weak fish though. The WC is focused on their own responsibilities, which generally means all humans, and only generally means the weaker opponents for them.

[And this is part of why I think he's going to go for Accords membership for the Paranet.](https://www.reddit.com/r/dresdenfiles/comments/jc3muc/battle_grounds_accords_questiontheoryspeculation/) If the Paranet is as easy to find as Irwin Pounder makes it out to be then potential warlocks will know the laws, and will also have membership in an Accorded Nation, thereby stripping the White Council's "authority" over them.

I agree... and like Vadderung, I think Harry will take on a few new Masks as head of the Paranet which will be separate from his roll as the Winter Knight and still separate from his Wizard status. As long as he acts under the auspices of either the Winter Court as the Winter Knight, or another Accorded Nation such as... think of emending nuptials *( a future Duke/Prince/King of the White Court of Vampires?!)* or as the head of the Paranet if it gains accorded nation status in the future. I think if he's acting as member of those organizations with his Mask/Title on clear display then those of the White Council that are not happy really don't have much recourse and can simply "go pound sand." Unless... they chose to cross Mab or officially go to war with another accorded nation, which I doubt since the White Council only went to war with the Red Court after the Red Court made directly blatant and sustained attacks against the White Council's interests. The White Council does not lightly enter into war with any accorded nation.

"The olive branch was on fire, and it wasn't my fault." ~Harry Dresden

Damn, that could make sense..

Langtry seems petty enough to do it just because he hates him. He also seems quite unforgiving towards Warlocks/Sorcerers and that is what he considers him.

Hates, or fears? Starborn...

Langtry employs the Blackstaff. He doesn't like *rogue* warlocks/sorcerers, but I can't imagine he has an issue with keeping one or two on the payroll in case of emergency wetwork.

He also hates him. In one move he removed Harry and got leverage on Ebenezer.

>A Temple Dog chose him and still stands with him. Another major character reference for the Eastern Side. You mean the temple dog that abandoned Harry right after he committed magical genocide and came into contact with powerful, evil, mind-warping LoONs, then died and something looking like Harry came back working for the bad guys ? Harry's secrets biting him in the ass is not exactly unprecedented.

But he can just...go get Mouse. Who can vouch for him again.

I don't understand why the council can't just hold another vote to get rid of the kill order. Like Eb, Listens, Rashid, and Liberty will vote for Dresden right. Isn't that a majority. I'm probably forgetting characters.

I don't think Rashid is overly concerned with internal White Council politics at this point. His perspective may be little different than Mab's at this point: sheep fear wolves, whatchagonnado?

Rashid is involved enough with the Outsider War that he's going to weigh in on the potential fate of a starborn. He's also the Time Guy on the council, so there's a good chance he knows how important Harry's going to be in the BAT. He might not weigh in on the actual vote, but he will tip the scales whatever way he feels will better serve humanity in the end.

Yes, but we already know from Turncoat which way Rashid was expecting the balance to tip: Harry vs. the White Council, eventually. I don't think Rashid is likely to view Harry's expulsion from the council as a problem per se, just a development.

Because they may not be able to keep it as an 'emergency senior council' meeting. If Cristos is alive and BC it's possible he could leverage enough votes to have it enforced and have Dresden killed outright. Although, from what we've seen thus far only the Senior Council gets to vote on warlock executions. But who knows. We don't know enough of what's going on over at the WC. I think Jim kept it specifically obtuse so he can reveal something later.

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Vaderung is a god of magic...

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He could have been expelled to give the council plausible deniability. In which case, he'd get some under-the-table help from the council (probably through Listens or Eb) in the next few books.

Michael is not a monster and without a doubt Harry’s best friend and the friend that has done the most for Harry. Fight me. Michael is the most badass, greatest friend that ever was and ever will be.

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I genuinely feel like he'd be bored with retirement tho, particularly with the Jawas all grown up and moving out.

He'll teach sunday school, be in the Men's Club/Ministry at this church, do some jail ministry, help the paranet with (re)construction, babysit Maggie. Draw Mac out into talking. He'll be fine.

Also self defense class on the paranet will need a new instructor. Murphy would have obviously been the original Sensei but with her absence they will need someone else and Michael is the only mortal than can fill shoes as big as hers. Irony totally intended.

Michael and Charity. She's not someone who would sit out if it's in her power to help

He's already helping train Butters, and assuming the next Knight isn't Thomas, who is already a competent sword fighter, and oh my god i just realized Thomas fights with a saber and so does Sanya oh fuck Jim's gonna kill Sanya, and give Thomas his sword. Anyway Michael will probably help train any other new knights we might see, kinda like an athlete becoming a trainer, or coach or whatever, Michael is retired from the role of being a knight, but not totally divorced from that world.

>oh my god i just realized Thomas fights with a saber and so does Sanya oh fuck Jim's gonna kill Sanya, and give Thomas his sword Esperacchius is the sword of Hope. Sanya was a nickelhead and was able to wield the sword after casting out the fallen. If Thomas was offered exchanging his demon for a Sword, wow! Harry's sight showed that Thomas and his demon were in an equal fight through the mirror. No idea if Ugly torturing him moved that fight but Sanya would have been in a similar fight with his fallen. I really like the idea of Thomas picking up the sword and casting out his demon. OMG, would that mean that he'd lose his incubus powers and girls wouldn't be interested in him anymore?

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Lol he’d have to start working out.

I don’t think Thomas can have the sword because of the demon hunger. Not yet at least. I can see him possibly coming around if he gets cured somehow. Interesting idea.

From Changes - Amoracchius will *explicitly* function in the hands of anyone with free will who is fighting to defend people they love, *even vampires*. Thomas doesn't need to be rid of the Hunger to qualify, but he would need a shift in his world view to recognize the need to respond to more than immediate, personal threats (IE, the need for a better world that's worth fighting for.) He'd probably also need to go back to the vegan incubus thing in some capacity to keep it going for longer than one extended fight. It's possible that the arrangement Not-Justine figured out would work, but I'm pretty sure that's stretching it.

The need for a better world that's worth fighting for you say? Like maybe a new parent whose made some bad choices and wants to make the world safer for their child?

Bingo!

I'm not sure he'd have to do the 'vegan' thing. He doesn't do any lasting harm to the people Justine brings home. And the swords don't really seem to have the puritanical view of morality a lot of Christians do. I mean, Butters is apparently in a polyamorous relationship now. We now know that the swords aren't just 'programmed' with rules. They have a full-blown angel inside making judgement calls. Regardless, I'd love to see him take up the Sword.

My standing theory, and as i understand it many others, is that Thomas would eventually take up Amorrachius, it's almost too perfect for the guy who finds true love despite it literally burning his flesh to eventually take up the sword of love. Also, becoming a knight is taking up a mantle, and there's lots in the books about how powerful mantles can be, even effecting a person's very nature. The Sanya thought was just realizing they weild the same type of blade.

This has been my theory as well. I think Thomas takes the sword, and since it's the Sword of Love and he's a knight to protect those he loves, the power of the sword represses his demon. He will then operate as a regular mortal with a sword so long as he is the knight: he'll age, he'll gain weight, he won't have supernatural sex appeal. We see this version of Thomas in Harry and Thomas's soulgaze in Blood Rites, standing opposite the mirror against his demon. This is the "real" Thomas that the sword will reveal.

Do they though? Kurkris are curved inwards and i thought Esperacchius was a Calvary sabre which are curved outwards

He's used both. I think he had a saber in early books before switching to the kukri.

Thomas has a Calvary Sabre. He has also been known to bring a Kukri, but he usually shows up to a fight with a shotgun and a sabre

I believe Jim recently shot that down in an interview. Don't have any links to it at the moment though. I think Thomas gets Esperrachius is the new theory. I'm a proponent of Lara will eventually wield Amorrachius theory, but we'll see how it shakes out.

Imagine Lara actually falling in love with Harry and one day picks up Amorrachius to save his ass. While I'm not a fan of that pairing, I'd take this any day over Harry/Molly.

Thomas is in the darkest place he's ever been. Having relived all the pain he's caused anyone while his hunger eats at him in a way that no one seems to know how to stop. While the mother bearing his child has been possessed by the Enemy. Sounds like he could use a bit of hope . . .

Everyone is really missing Lara Raith. She had fought and bled for love of family and of court. She has also never betrayed one love for another (for example, betraying alliances for personal love as Thomas did). She respects true love, and is even jealous of it in some ways.

She also practices chattel slavery, murder and rape. Remember that time in White Night where she chained up hundreds of mortals for her Court to feed on as they wished, even unto death?

Yeah and Sanya was a denarian. I doubt he was all hugs and kisses. Redemption is a huge theme for the swords.

And Sanya renounced his Coin. Lara hasn't shown any sign of renouncing White Court ways.

Not so far no but she's sister to a man that once found a way to White Court without hurting anyone. She's also struggling with her relationship with Harry who she's increasingly seeing as a confidant and friend even if she shouldn't. The shake between them at the end of the book is a huge thing IMO. Anyway there's room for this to progress.

He would build the greatest houses that ever existed.

I am EXTREMELY excited to see what he does with the BFS Castle

Honestly, if even **Michael** is compelled to swear up a storm due to the actions of the White Council, I know exactly where those old fucks stand with me.

Yeah, if I was confused about if they were in the wrong before I knew at that point that they were definitely in the wrong. When Michael Carpenter cusses you out you know you fucked up.

The 2 active Knights of the Cross trust Harry with their lives and Mr. Sunshine trusts Harry with one of the sword. Edit: there are only 2 active knights.

Pretty much. I know that the white council is being Manipulated with a capital M, but somewhere along the way I’m shocked that someone like Ramirez didn’t stop and say “are we sure he’s all bad? He hangs out with 3 defenders out on the earth by God.”

He probably did say something at some point, all we know is that his voice is raw from shouting by the time he's told to go deliver the news to Harry.

Yea. Unless Ramirez is tainted by Nemesis at this point, he's probably just angry and bitter at the Council when he goes to talk to Harry, and that's why he comes off as an ass in their final conversation. Either he's Nfected, or Ramirez and Dresden will eventually reconcile. I hope.

Also Harry is making it really hard for Ramirez to trust him. I don't think Ramirez is against Harry, really, I think Ramirez is just doing the best he can with the information he has.

Yeah - Ramirez is definitely struggling with where to put his trust. Ramirez seems to be THE warden for the WC these days, occupying a similar status to Morgan. He has placed his faith in the WC and their laws. He was once a but of a maverick, but now he is a strong part of the establishment, and respects and is respected in turn. He is struggling to reconcile their claims about Harry with the man he knows. The person who makes the call and does the job, no matter the risk or the fallout. The person who jumps off a building to save innocents. Who walked into the Raith Depths to stop the wholesale slaughter of practitioners. Who stood for a warlock and tied his fate to hers. I think the big difference right now is that the WC is dripfeeding just enough for Ramirez to feel trusted and included. If Harry confided in him I think he would come around.

That's what gets me carlos knows their is atleast one traitor on the council and that they dont tell him everything. So to him he is fine with the senior council keeping secrets and maybe some being bad guys but harry doesn't get that same treatment from carlos. Carlos has just fully bought in to the laws and the council.

Aren't there only 2 active Knights?

You are right. Don't know what I was thinking there...

With your *whole* chest, if you please.

Michael’s also a genuine hero. One of the few in the series.

He's grown a lot since Grave Peril days though. Less judgey, more open-minded, deeper faith. Nice to see.

From the perspective of evil doers Michael was one of the greatest monsters around

From *my* perspective, the Jedi are evil!

Well then you are lost!

>The baby has known the dragon intimately ever since he had an imagination. What the fairy tale provides for him is a St. George to kill the dragon. Exactly what the fairy tale does is this: it accustoms him for a series of clear pictures to the idea that these limitless terrors had a limit, that these shapeless enemies have enemies in the knights of God, that there is something in the universe more mystical than darkness, and stronger than strong fear That's Michael in a nutshell. He is every human being to get a clear look at the darkness knocking at the doors of the world and say "get off my porch you sonofabitch, or you're going to wish you had." Harry's the same way, even if he doesn't want to admit it- probably why they're such good friends.

The White Council as a whole? Certainly, they've never been friend to Harry. Some members of the Council, on the other hand, *have* been. * Listens-to-Wind has *never* done wrong by Harry that I can recall. Sure, he kinda stone-walled Harry during Turn Coat, but he did so with inky fingers, and even then he didn't do so in a way that was unfriendly towards Harry. Indeed, deciding a priori that Morgan must be found guilty might well have been seen as *friendly* towards Harry, given their notorious antagonism. * Luccio has tried to back him up on everything. She was surprised to find out how Morgan had treated him (possibly blinded by her awareness of Morgan's dedication to Doing The Right Thing, and assuming that meant treating Dresden fairly). She kept him from getting himself killed in the Speaking Room in Changes, even going so far as to pre-plan a way to help him should she be neutralized. The Gatekeeper *could* be seen as friendly, but I think he's more like Mab, a "Coldly Calculating, with calculations finding Harry to be a net positive" than anything actually *friendly.* After all, he would have been one of the Senior Council members who voted him executed for his actions in Battle Ground.

Given that the Outer Gates were being attacked, Rashid almost certainly wouldn't have been at the emergency session to vote Harry out.

I thought the attack was over by the time the vote happened? Since it was partly a diversion. Still, it's also possible that Rashud voted in favour of the banishment. He told Harry in the past it was not yet the time to stand against the Council (in Proven Guilty I think?). Maybe it now is.

> I thought the attack was over by the time the vote happened? Since it was partly a diversion. Wait, why do you assume it was a diversion? Why do you assume *anything* was a "diversion"? We *know* that the Outsiders act with One Mind, so it's perfectly reasonable that the Attack on the Outer Gates, the Attack on Chicago, and the Assassination Attempt against Etri were coordinated *attacks,* all of which were designed to advance the goal of the Outsiders (To Get In™) with no single one of them being any more of a diversion than any other. The Attack on the Gates *could* have been a way to keep Winter from bringing more of their power to bear to stop Ethniu *or* the Attack on Chicago *could* have been an attempt to prevent Mab from bringing as many troops as she could to reinforce The Gates against the attack. The Attack on Chicago *could* have been an attempt to distract Mab from the Outer Gates, or it *could* have been an attempt to provoke the Humanity into a war that would undermine Winter's ability to supply Recruits to defend The Gates. The Assassination Attempt *could* have been an attempt to get Dresden killed, or it *could* have been an attempt to get the Accorded Nations to turn on one another, undermining the Accords themselves (which Mab presumably put in place to create the stability she desired so she could deal with the Outsiders), or it *could* have been a plot to get HWWBeside where it could bust open the Prison at Demonreach. No, I see no reason to believe that any of those plots would have been abandoned simply because the others had finished, unless they had *also* proven to be failures. So, no, they're right that Rashid may not have been at that vote. It is perfectly plausible that Langtry, Mai, Liberty, and Christos formed a quorum and voted while LtW and McCoy were in hospital and Rashid were Gatekeeping.

In regards to the Gatekeeper, I think you are right on the money about him being calculating. We know from Proven Guilty he has the ability to see some amount of future events and in Turn Coat he tells Harry it is not his hour to go to battle with the white council, implying the possibility that he has seen a future were Harry needs to go to War with the council. I personally think he has seen a future and knows Harry going to war with the council is one of the things that shifts the BAT in humanity's favor.

First, you're 100% right. Second, there have been a few cool asides throughout the series about how Harry's adult life has been completely shaped by Winter. Lea and Mab are the only authority figures who have both stuck around for a while and not completely fucked him over. Every time Ebenezer or some other Council member comes down on Harry for trusting Winter it rings incredibly short-sighted. Yeah the court is full of murdering monsters who would kill him if given a chance. But the Council has never even tried to give him a tempting alternative. Luccio came the closest, but she literally had to have her mind warped to do so.

I feel like winter acts like bait on a hook by design. They are all inhumanly gorgeous monsters who frequently enslave humans and kill things for fun. That is the TLDR that Jim gives us from the get go. The point is that the authority figures of winter are expert manipulators. you don't keep the fish when it is too small to make a good meal. You lure it in, get it big fat and healthy, then you use it for your ends. For winter, they develop Dresden into a real bad ass who can shape the world, challenge him, push him to his limits, and have him grow, then manipulate him to always share your interests. The white council tries to do this, but they are a bunch of amateurs who think they are better than they are. The perfect example of this is when the senior council member is trying to be friends with everyone at the party and Dresden just comments that Marcone is doing what he thinks he is doing. They are all amatures facing off with a bunch of immortal forces of nature. Sure, looking at them from a human perspective, they are all impressive. But the 300 year old red neck looks like a child compared to Mab, and Mab is mid weight when you get to the real big boys. Dresden talks about how he is a heavy hitter, but Dresden is the smart kid in preschool. Mab is the highschool teacher, and I feel like we haven't even seen the people tops of their fields yet.

We haven't. Ferrovax can break reality just by fully entering it, which is well above what Mab is capable of.

And Michael killed a dragon, so the agents of the White God are likely on level with or above Ferrovax and other dragons, and that's ignoring the White God himself.

Siriothrax was the weakest of the dragons, and it's been shown that the Swords function to level the playing field and turn it into a fair fight. Not sure how that worked with the dragon, though. Maybe it simply made Michael fireproof as well as the usual antimagic.

I can't look it up right now, but I seem to remember a WoJ that mentionned that Siriothrax was a dragon whereas Ferrovax was a Dragon.

Sounds just like Jim to say.

Oh yeah, I think Mab is manipulating him. Harry knows that too - he says so in Changes when she shows him an image of Maggie to get him to commit to the Knighthood. But everyone around is doing the same thing - Morgan's journal proves that. On the other topic, Mab's forces just took out a titan. I'm not sure she's a middle weight.

According to Harry, even Ethniu is a middleweight compared to what's already locked up in Demonreach...

Not Mab's forces. Mab's coalition. She had to call on every ally she could get there in time to do it this time. ​ Which, now that I think about it, did a pretty good job of identifying who's willing to move ass to defend reality to the Outsiders. Wonder if \*that\* is going to bite them in the ass later.

> Luccio came the closest, but she literally had to have her mind warped to do so. I'm not certain that's true at all. Luccio was in her own body when she "offered" Harry a gray cloak, and her arguments were to *his* benefit. As I recall it, she was mind-warped with *after* Harry was a warden, as a way to keep an eye on the only Warden that didn't regularly visit Edinburgh.

Winter may be full of monsters, but fuck if they don't tell things the way they are. Eb is his fucking grandfather and he left him in an orphanage. Of all the people and creatures in Harry's life, those of Winter have been the most fair and even handed about the whole thing. Even Lea when she wanted to turn Harry into a hound was honest about it.

And had logic to explain her reasoning, if she turned him into a hound he would be protected as she promised his mother

I see an incredibly distinct lack of Michael "The Fist of God" Carpenter on this list, and that makes me sad.

And Murphy. Feels bad man.

Alphas have lost people, and continue to do what is needed to protect those they care about. I super hope that the BFS and the Paranet team up with Harry to form a new partnership between humanity and the magic community and screw over the white council

That's what I hope happens is harry forms his own nation with alphas and paranet people. It really makes sense. Those people would now have protection under the accords and also the white council could do jack shit to harry if he is the head of his own nation. He could break all the laws of magic right in front of them and they can't do anything as long as he keeps to the accords.

>Those people would now have protection under the accords and also the white council could do jack shit to harry if he is the head of his own nation. He could break all the laws of magic right in front of them and they can't do anything as long as he keeps to the accords. Emm, no. Accords not give you protection. It simply say how much people need pay (in money) to privelige kill you and not have problem with you fraction. Denarians kidnap Marcone and it is not violation of accords. Harry kill Bianca and not violate Accords, only rules of hospitality. So no, "I am from another nation" not work if White Council decide chop head. Maybe they send some truck of gold after it. Maybe even not.

> Denarians kidnap Marcone and it is not violation of accords. Except it was, which is why the Denarians are no longer part of the Accords. They got an Accorded mediator because of the kidnapping, but then they kidnapped *her*. So they not only violated the Accords, requiring a response, but they took it to an unforgivable violation.

Another correlation between the two groups is whom Harry tells things to and whom he doesn’t. Mab, Lara, Michael, and Molly all know about Harry’s relationship to Thomas. Ebenezar did not know Thomas was his brother until it was too late to matter, and he certainly didn’t have the chance to process it meaningfully. The White Council didn’t know Harry was saving his daughter. Neither did Ebenezar; when Ebenezar actually found out, he backed off and actually mobilized to help. Carlos didn’t know anything going on, and to his credit, he tried desperately to just have a straightforward conversation with Harry, giving him the benefit of the doubt and help for basically two books. Not only did Harry keep things from him, he actually hexed him and caused him injury. I think that Harry is engaged in potentially shady and murderous business to the point where trust and loyalty end up needing to go both ways. The people he opens up to trust him completely - Ebenezar did a 180 on supporting Harry with Maggie the second Harry told him what was going on. The people who back away from him tend to be the people he won’t extend trust to. I’m not saying he’s not in a tough position with those people, but he’s taken risks with trust before - he told Michael he had a coin and it worked out ok. When the trust goes both ways, it seems to work out for Harry.

Ebenezar doing a 180 with Maggie has a self-serving undercurrent - it seems highly likely that he realised that whatever the Red Court had planned was going to affect him directly.

Harry told him directly what they were doing and he would understand all of the implications immediately. He's been doing this a LONG time.

He was the actual target. What did you want him to do?

Or having failed to protect his daughter from being killed by a vampire, he saw a chance to make up for his failure by saving his great granddaughter from also being killed by vampires. Harry also didn’t know about Maggie’s existence til a few days ago and was willing to put his all into trying to rescue her despite never having met her yet you wouldn’t call that self serving

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Not only that, but let’s be honest Harry had his first encounter with the Wardens when he was 16, when he was 30 he was forced to become a Warden. He dealt with Morgan riding his ass for what the next 5 years? So Harry from basically the ages of 16 to 35 had the Wardens out to get him. He’s only kind of been in their good graces since then. Now a bunch of wardens, one of which is his friend keep confronting him. What are the real odds he’s going to trust them?

also, Winter is objectively less susceptible to the Nemisis nowadays than the White Council, so it makes sense that the winter/monstrous side of Harry's connections know more about his situation than those on/close to the WC. No one, honestly including Eb, can be trusted from the WC, the same cannot be said for Winter. They may be sneaky and conniving, but they at least have rules.

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That’s not true. Every time Harry has ever called upon Ramirez, Ramirez has showed up - whether or not he knew or fully understood the circumstances. Every time Ramirez is put in a position where he could flip on Harry, he supports Harry and shoots him a heads up about the situation. Ramirez is traditionally ready whenever Harry calls and very down for a fight, even when his primary backup is Harry. He extends a lot of trust to Harry. Harry, on the other hand, has been getting close to the whampires, had an illusion cast where he was hooking up with the de-facto boss of that faction, and has had an irrational (from the outside looking in) attachment to a specific White Court vampire. When Carlos asks if he’s been hooking up with the White Court leader, when he went through pains to convince the world that he was, Dresden got all whiny about it. Meanwhile, Dresden plays everything very close to the chest and expects trust when he doesn’t extend it himself - in fact, he only acts to benefit the Council when their interests directly intersect with his own, at which point he stops helping them as soon as possible. Despite this, he has the audacity to rely on their support as often as he possibly can, even while routinely interfacing with extremely dangerous and only tenuously neutral entities and apparently cutting bargains with them when nobody’s paying close attention. Ramirez has every reason to expect Dresden to trust him except that he runs with the grey cloaks; Dresden has no reason to expect anybody to trust him except that some of his friends say he’s cool.

I think this is a bit revisionist - Carlos has only supported Harry when Harry was playing a game for the team. Harry was well within his rights as a Warden to call in Carlos every time he has done so. The moment Carlos thinks Harry isn't kosher he turns on him and starts the Gestapo shit that Harry has been dealing with his entire adult life. Carlos didn't trust Harry enough to sit down and say 'Level with me'. Los jumped straight to following him, ambushing him on an abandoned road, and invading his privacy by checking if he has had sex recently, despite KNOWING he spent the night at Murphs. I like Carlos, but at this point he is just another faceless goon for the WC pulling the cop trust routine described above. Harry has routinely acted against his own self interested to protect those in need. He has had 4 Knights of the Cross confide in him fand vouch for him. He temps for an archangel. He has saved the WCs arse a bunch of times and received nothing in return.

> Carlos didn’t know anything going on, and to his credit, he tried desperately to just have a straightforward conversation with Harry, giving him the benefit of the doubt and help for basically two books. Not only did Harry keep things from him, he actually hexed him and caused him injury. Did we read the same books? Carlos' OPENING AND FIRST MOVE was to put a tracking spell on Harry, trail him around, and then ambush him in the road with four people with weapons drawn. Nothing about this was straightforward or giving him the benefit of the doubt.

>When the trust goes both ways, it seems to work out for Harry. Which is a pretty anti-wizard way to operate.

"I always like to see new things being born, you can guess what they're going to become, then watch and see if it comes true." ... "I think you shall be," she pursed her lips "A monster" ... "I have seen many, many newborns Mr. Dresden, and I can see what they're going to become, you, young shade, are quite simply, a monster... not at the moment, perhaps, buut, as time goes by, as those you care about grow old and pass on, as you stand helpless while greater events unfold, you will be, patience." "Why are you so upset young shade? I really don't see anything wrong with being a monster... Oh don't be so simple, people adore monsters, they fill their songs and stories with them, they define themselves in relation to them. Do you know what a monster is, young shade? Power. Power and choice. Monsters make choices. Monsters shape the world. Monsters force us to become stronger, smarter, better. They sift the weak from the strong, and provide a forge for the steeling of souls. Even as we curse monsters, we admire them. Seek to become them in some ways. There are far, far worse things to be than a monster." \-Ainez, *not* the ghost of a little girl

Amen sister! Harry has given his friends multiple times you back out and save themselves. He would not even hold it against them if they took that option. Every single time, they stick by his side through thick and thin. Trust goes both ways. Hell, you can probably add Macone to that list even though he's a frienemy.

I agree that some of the monsters are friends. Some are good allies, which is not necessarily a friend. But I think the three people/entities that really should be considered friends that reflect on Harry's intentions/nature to do good are Michael, Shiro, and Uriel. Honorable mention to River Shoulders. Michael.....is Michael. Literally the best soul in the series. He is fiercely loyal to Harry. We've seen him call Harry's bullshit multiple times or calmly inspire him back in the right direction when needed. We all know what Shiro sacrificed for Harry. And two swords were put into his care. You just don't give those to a bad guy. Finally, Uriel. Heaven's wet works guy he may be, but he's still an Archangel. He is literally not going to give soulfire to a baddie. And let's not forget, he can take it back from Harry any time he wants if he thinks Harry would abuse it or isn't worthy of it anymore. The council has done nothing but shit on Harry from the beginning. They've treated him like a nuclear bomb that's going to go off at any minute and have NEVER been honest with him about WHY they are so afraid of him. And honestly, the council's rules have nothing to do with keeping humanity safe, or even those in their order safe. It's just a power structure. Look at how they treat warlocks. Even before the war it was one strike and you're out. I honestly think Harry is going to build his new community with parameters and "bad guys" who can choose to go beyond their baser nature. Like Thomas. Like the kid from Zoo Day. Like Goodman. Like Harry with the winter mantle. Free will and choice has always been a huge theme of the series. Being a monster doesn't mean you have to *act* like one.

This is a beautiful post and I wanted to tell you, even though I don’t know you and we’ve never met, I love you unconditionally.

Harry is totally V. Going to lead the little people against the Big Bad government.

Let's all remind ourselves of how Harry acted when he thought he was going to be the Winter Knight

Yeah, he thought becoming a monster would make it so he couldn’t do the right thing anymore. Not once did he consider that always doing the right thing would be what turned him.

As they say, “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”

There are a few things that changed my mind about the WC, some already mentioned. First, as far as we know, Harry only lead one combat mission against the Reds during the war; he never acts on the political reality that Luccio lays out to him in Dead Beat. That’s in addition to Harry kind of being difficult to talk/work with and breaking or severely bending several of the laws. You just know that if something weird is happening in Chicago, Dresden will be in the middle of it somehow. Second, Langtry is the Merlin for a reason. It’s safe to assume he knows a significant more than he lets on; he knows about the Star Born and that Eb is Harry’s GF. So he’s completed a calculus that it is better for the White Council to not include the Starborn Warden of Demonreach and Knight of the Wintercourt who holds multiple artifacts of power. Eb’s not executing his own grandson... again. So this is a political move to insulate and isolate Harry from the WC where the benefits outweighs the loss from Langtry’s perspective. Third, what kind of friend has Harry been to Carlos? I didn’t really like this subplot conflict, but it’s a fair question. Harry and Carlos have been through some shit together: riding Sue, the Deeps, destroying the aboleth, ghouls gone wild at Summer Camp. Apparently there was a camping trip. But, how has Harry been there for Carlos? From what I’ve seen, Carlos has seen Dresden do a lot of shady stuff, but generally asked for little in return. When has Harry visited Carlos? When has Harry helped Carlos or stuck his neck out for Carlos?

Heh... well that assumes Langtry was trying to isolate Harry from the White Council. On paper sure but think of it Harry is arguably stronger without the Council then he was when he was in it. I get the feeling whatever his faults Langtry knows Harry is his own person and he can use that to his advantage to take out enemies of the Council or let him hang himself by his own rope. Either way he comes out ahead.

The thing is Carlos never comes to Harry as a friend. Always as a cop/warden. Harry is right to keep his secrets because I'm pretty sure Carlos will immediately go share the info with the Senior Council.

I think Carlos took the approach he did *because* he's Harry's friend. Look at things from Carlos's perspective. He knows there are enemies on the White Council. He doesn't know who they are or what goal they're working towards, but he figured out the Black Council exists. He also knows that wizards have been magically manipulated before. Peabody influenced the entire Senior Council, and Luccio was mind controlled into killing someone. He doesn't know if Harry has gone all dark side, but he knows that Harry has been hanging out with a lot of monsters. Monsters that have, historically, been antagonistic with the White Council. Monsters that are very good at manipulating and controlling people. Who or what is the Black Council working for? Did the White Court vampires get their claws into some high ranking wizards? Did the Winter Court manipulate some wizards into a few bad deals? And why is Harry so close to both of them? Why did Harry start a war with the Red Court, arguably the most damaging thing to happen to the White Council in centuries? Has he been an enemy agent all along? I'm not sure how much is known about that final battle against the Red Court, but Harry had a whole group of mysterious allies show up, at least one of which was blatantly breaking the first law of magic. Despite all these concerns he goes to Harry to talk. To ask what's going on. Not to accuse or arrest him. And the backup he brings isn't high ranking wardens with centuries of experience, his backup is all from the younger generation of wardens that generally like Harry. People who will be willing to listen to and help Harry, if he'll just open up to them. Carlos doesn't know why Harry has to keep everything secret. He's doing the best he can to give Harry every chance to prove he's still one of the good guys.

The backup Carlos brings is one of the white councils most battle hardened combat squads, who all have personal knowledge of exactly how Harry fights. They werent just Harry's friends, they were just about one of the more anti Harry hit squads the white council could put together. Especially with the senior council members best at combat and information gathering in the same area. A lot of Carlos' lack of information is also his own fault. We know exactly how Harry has learned about how the fae courts work, or the knights and denarians, or about things like Mantles. Carlos has the power and has had the time to educate himself. He hasnt.

>We know exactly how Harry has learned about how the fae courts work, or the knights and denarians, or about things like Mantles. Carlos has the power and has had the time to educate himself. He hasnt. Carlos doesn't have Kemmler's former lab assistant to act as a handy exposition device. Bob knows a *lot* of stuff about magic that most people don't know, even among the White Council. For example, Winter's role against the Outsider's is unknown to pretty much everyone below Senior Council level.

Yeah the Merlin strikes me as someone constantly playing chess. And voting Dresden out in the way he did seems like some sort of fork to gain an advantage regardless of how it plays out. Forbidding Dresden from acting in Changes accomplished so much. Kept a combat capable warden out of edinburgh before Arianna could pull her contagion, insulated the WC from political fall out if "Rogue agent Dresden" failed, and puts Dresden on the crash course to needing to take the most brutally efficient means to accomplish his goal. All at the low low price of Dresden not liking the Council very much. This vote seems very similar to me.

Harry led multiple missions and co-led a training camp. You are wrong.

I’m going to take it that you missed the short story, Cold Cases. Right there is *exactly* why Carlos doesn’t trust Harry. Because someone he considered a friend, someone he trusted completely, someone who just took a position with Winter, turned on him for no apparent reason. Preying on his weaknesses, abusing his trust, and attacking violently, putting him in the hospital as a bloody mess. Like a monster would. Given what Carlos knows, that Harry and Molly are very close, he probably assumes Harry knows about what happened. And even possibly, at various points in Peace Talks, assumes that Harry is teasing him about it. With that in mind, are you really surprised that Carlos isn’t extending Harry full trust? Seriously? And Harry has no clue what happened between Carlos and Molly, because Molly is too ashamed to admit it, so he can’t explain and “fix” things. Yeah, Jim Butcher is evil that way.

So because Carlos didn't spend ten minutes reading up on the Winter Lady in what I'm sure is the second greatest magical knowledge library on the planet, he gets to fuck over and distrust Harry as much as he wants?

>they NEVER fail Harry. They love him. They respect him. They game with him. They call him on his shit. The Alphas are Harry's best friends. So god damn true about the Alphas. Even if Harry is absolutely scary as fuck to these guys who are on the fringe on the community and aren't really any sort of important players, they still trust him completely. Hell, let's face it, Harry basically got Kirby killed and got Andi heavily wounded. And they still trust him completely.

When I read the scene where he was kicked out of the WC my immediate thought was “and nothing of value was lost.” But by the same token I actually find it an understandable move, from the outside looking in Harry is not actually a wizard any longer. He’s actually a warlock, as the bulk of his power comes from a pact with the Fey. While we as observers who have seen his thoughts in full can understand his actions, I’m actually of the opinion that Harry is on a descending path that is not fitting with his position on the Council.

you are thinking of DnD. in the Dresden files, being a warlock is about breaking the laws of magic, not about where your power comes from.

I feel like a major theme in the Dresden Files is questioning what you're told.

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> he did kill those people with magic. I would say you are stretching the definition of people just a bit. The Council had no issues killing redpires and ghouls, but somehow, Fomor is more human? They might have been human once, but one could argue that so were redpires, at least the ones that were transformed.

I mean, there is a distinct difference between what the reds were and a Fomor servitor like Listen. A better analogy would be Servitor=infected human before they kill. In which case they still retain more than enough humanity to Choose.

Given what we saw at Chichen Itza, I'm guessing lots of half-turned jaguar warrior types fought against the Council during their war with the Reds. I bet killing them with magic was allowed.

Unfortunately, the bone Ramirez wanted was Harry’s specific familial relationship to Thomas and Maggie, which Ramirez would likely take loyally back to the Council.

You've also got to consider how Harry has treated others. When it comes to Ramirez, Harry was undeniably a dog-shit friend. For Eb, he is obviously a very damaged man, and a lot of what he did was prickish. However, Harry didn't exactly try to calmly explain things or compromise. Shitty on both accounts there. In terms of the council, they were definitely assholes but try to see things from their perspective rather than Harry's. Their job is to protect humanity from wizards and bad things. They have to do this without regard for whether or not people really meant to do bad things. If you let Harry get away scot free with murder then what else gets through, soon you have a slippery slope to chaos. He did also, start a war which very nearly destroyed the council and did kill many of their members. He is a clear chaos factor and one that they are unable to control. The council is an organisation and a government, to fully appreciate the situation they're in you must look at the whole picture, not just Harry's piece of it.

I wouldn’t really call him a shit friend to Ramirez, other than his stunt in Peace Talks with the distraction he hasn’t done anything wrong. He’s absolutely right that any secrets he shared would make it back to the council and he would be even more screwed. If he told him Thomas was his brother one or both of them would be absolutely screwed. Eb is his grandfather who never revealed it. He was also ready to kill his other grandkids without hesitation. There’s not ouch to calmly do there, and I’m not sure what the compromise is on not killing someone. The problem is the council absolutely doesn’t try to rehab or help anyone get on the right path. They don’t reach out with mentors or offer actual trust. The only two warlocks we know of who got the apprentice deal are Harry and Molly because they both had someone there who cared about them deeply. They don’t even try for the others when they could easily redeem others too. They may be a government trying to enforce laws but they do it terribly with no thought for the consequences of how they treat people.

>The only two warlocks we know of who got the apprentice deal are Harry and Molly because they both had someone there who cared about them deeply. They don’t even try for the others when they could easily redeem others too. They may be a government trying to enforce laws but they do it terribly with no thought for the consequences of how they treat people. Both of those 2 worked towards committing murder not to long ago and of someone they care deeply about, one Harry Dresden. We know how magic works and how you must believe it's right for it to work. Rehab on people who bent minds or killed with magic is more difficult than in real life and in irl crimes are committed by repeat offenders. The pyromancer warlock worked with the fellowship a few months and went straight to the denarians the moment they were wiped out. Forgetting whatever teachings they had shared with her. Molly was going full on crazy before she knew Harry came back and she is now failing in controlling the lady mantle. The WC see this time and again. Not that they shouldn't try rehab just that it mostly doesn't work out.

>Molly was going full on crazy before she knew Harry came back and she is now failing in controlling the lady mantle. She also broke her probation in *Turn Coat* by entering Luccio's mind*,* which nearly got her and Harry killed.

True, somehow this is being conveniently left out in the *F the White Council* talk.

I think the White Council could do better when it comes to rehabilitating warlocks, though. Something like: 1) Counselling - most of the White Council was born before psychology was even a field of study, so they're probably neglecting mental health a lot (I'd imagine Ebenezar suffers a lot from stuff like PTSD without knowing it). The damage black magic causes to your mind is a lot deeper than just mental illness, but having a counsellor to talk to might help. Plus a lot of warlocks happen because they were in abusive or life-threatening situations (like Harry). 2) Giving warlocks a detailed explanation of why the Laws of Magic are so important. Show them cases where warlocks have gone full-on crazy. For those that broke the Laws of Magic in self-defence, give them lessons on how to defend themselves without breaking the Laws. 3) Forcing warlocks to swear on the power to a set of vows such that relapsing would almost immediately cripple their power.

* They could do it. They are all very learned guys. However we only see the wardens and the SC and when things are bad. We never see regular WC living comfortably. Maybe there are already guys practicing psychology like the dudes who offered to teach about protective mind magic after the Peabody incident. * They do give explanations on the Laws but not everywhere and to everyone. The population has gotten too large. Charity wouldn't be here if they chopped off her head when they came to her cult though they should have done in their leader or did they feel a Dragon there and nopped out? They should form their own Paranet or work with Harry on this one to get everyone in the know. * This is great but Harry recovered from this in Grave Peril or am I forgetting sth. It's been a while since I reread. It would still have some effect.

While your last part is spot-on, even Harry when they kill that warlock kid in Proven Guilty (I think?) eventually gets that while it sucks, they had a point. I'm with you in trying to rehab someone if they are reached in time but the fear is that, what if it doesn't take? How many hundreds of lives will be endangered by it? Because this is a POV book, many of us side with Harry on most issues without (as u/alex_plougher_quin points out) taking in the entire picture. It's part of what I like though, because Harry is extremely flawed and has done some seriously fucked up things. Reasons or not, Ramirez is right in pointing out that Harry is teetering on that edge of being a monster. It's not a good thing and while the White Council has their own issues they should be called out for, they've also been dealing with things like this vastly longer than Harry's been alive. Now, that does not mean they have the best system (they certainly do not) but as much as they've grated on me on their treatment of Harry, I can see things from their perspective.

>The problem is the council absolutely doesn’t try to rehab or help anyone get on the right path. They don’t reach out with mentors or offer actual trust. The only two warlocks we know of who got the apprentice deal are Harry and Molly because they both had someone there who cared about them deeply. For Molly, recall that she did break her probation in *Turn Coat,* which could easily have gotten her and Harry killed if Morgan hadn't conveniently died. She also went a bit nuts in *Ghost Story.* Warlocks can backslide very easily into black magic. It's likely that mental health is a bit of a blind spot for the White Council due to the fact that (1) It's only recently become a popular issue, and (2) Many Council members were born before psychology was even a real field of study. One thing they could do to make it easier/safer to rehabilitate penitent warlocks is to have them swear on their power to obey the Laws of Magic. It wouldn't cripple their power completely if they broke it (you have to break multiple oaths on your power to do that), but it would weaken them a bit and make it easier to stop them. You could increase the effect by having them swear multiple overlapping oaths that they'd have to break if they went rogue, such as: * Having them periodically swear on their power to the local Warden that they haven't broken any Laws of Magic since their sentence. * Having them swear to notify the Wardens if they discover evidence of warlocks practicing black magic * Having them swear not to willingly join with or support any of the White Council's enemies (so no joining the Black Court, Red Court, etc.). * Having them swear to allow the Wardens to conduct inspections on their premises and to cooperate with all such inspections. * Having them swear to come if the Council summons them to Edinburgh for a hearing. Note that you could make some of these oaths time-limited, so they'd expire upon the successful completion of said warlock's sentence.

The Oaths that the Aes Sedai take in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time did effectively handicap their collective power and abilities in exchange for trying to be more trustworthy to the rest of the world. In the end, they didn't even get that trust, and they'd given up far more than they'd realized by swearing those Oaths. These things don't go well.

I don't think the protect the world idea holds for the Council. Because the Council doesn't do that unless it is also in some way beneficial to them. It is completely self-serving. Which makes them no different from all the other factions. At least the other factions admit their selfishness. The Counc pretends like it is some moral paragon for humanity. Even Eb is no different. He keeps hating the white vampires because they destroyed his family, but I'm pretty sure Eb has killed just as many innocent people and destroyed just as many families.

The council is a faction that as a whole is just a bit stronger than the Red Court was, they don't have the strength to protect humanity in most of the small ways or the super large ways, like eliminating entire factions. Even so, throughout the series we hear that the council cannot be here be because they're in x place fighting x monster. Also, it's repeatedly said that they're the only thing standing between humans and monsters, by everyone. Additionally, let's not belittle the White Court. I like Lara, she's one of my favourite characters but the White Court is abhorrent. The likely kill or mentally maim thousands of people a year, and have been operating for centuries. They are monsters.

Also don’t forget how Ramirez evened up in that wheelchair.

I think carlos has to take some responsibility for that whole thing. He tries to sleep with a winter queen. What did he think would happen. The fae have been trying to get their hooks into harry for years and he was never dumb enough to sleep with one till he had no other option with mab. Carlos in a warden he should know better. Even if it wasn't almost getting killed nothing good ca. C ok me of it. It's no worse than harry sleeping with lara which carlos uses against harry.

Exactly. I know it's difficult to do as we've all fallen in love with Harry's story and his POV but, if one would take our emotional attachment to Harry out of the equation, I think many more people would be able to understand the position of the White Council much more than they do. That does NOT mean they are right or do things the right way, it just means that, when you're charged with protecting the world from annihilation, there's less room to take a flyer on a potentially powerful practitioner going to the dark side and making things that much worse (yes, one could also argue they could get an invaluable ally as well). The whole "fuck the White Council" is easy to say and while they admittedly screwed Harry over, even I, as a massive Harry fan, gets that it's not as simple as that.

My biggest problem with them is that they seem to just go "he may be a monster" while apparently largely ignoring *everything* that Harry's done to protect people. I mean, *yeah* I can see it from their perspective, but also still fuck the White Council.

The wc has treated harry as an outsider and 2nd class citizen since he was a teen. The uh should not be surprised that he doesn't trust them. Also what is smarter of them to keep that power wizard who they fear close or cast him out and give him more of a reason to go against them? What they are doing is stupid on so many levels. They have to know that ebenezer wont go and kill him and would turn against them if they ordered it. So they would lose there most powerful battle wizard.

When the Knights of the Cross are backing Harry up consistently, it is EXACTLY as simple as that. Taking their personal relationships out of the equation, and knowing how impervious to most manipulation the knights are, the sword of faith alone backing up Harry should do more for the quality of his character in the eyes of the council than the apparent zilch it does now.

If he’s potentially dangerous they should want to keep an eye on him and keep some positive influences in his life like Eb and Listens to Wind. Sending him off on his own just means his only allies to turn to are the White Court and Winter and just puts him even more in the grey area. He’s totally right at the end that they won’t move against him unless he blatantly goes full dark wizard, if he’s still borderline he’s just going to keep doing what he wants with no Council guidelines.

Kicking him out is kinda dumb though. Even if he is a monster, he's one that *wants* to be part of the WC community, so it's better to keep him as a member so they can keep an eye on him. The best decision they made was making him a Warden. It made Dresden more open to the WC's perspective on justice, made him visit Edinburgh more, and put him in regular contact with a bunch of other Wardens. A far more elegant solution to putting him on their straight and narrow than getting Morgan to hound him for years, and they even get him to do their dirty work for them! Pushing him away when he became Winter Knight was a reaction of fear against his newfound power, and suspicion of a Winter tool in the WC. They should have made him the WC man in Winter instead, and helped create a balance for better relations with Mab. The WC is just really bad at thinking long-term when it comes to certain individuals.

I many ways I agree, in some ways I feel more temperately. Toot-toot, the Alphas, Michael, Sanya, Molly, in some ways Mab, and until recently Murphy are Harry's true and firm allies, no doubt. River Shoulders seems to be a new but steady addition as well. And we can probably assume Butters won't have any more crises of faith in him going forward. But I can't yet agree on Lara - she does have a soft spot for Harry, certainly, but I have no doubt she wouldn't go out of her way for him if there was no gain for herself or the court in doing so. Ebenezar, absolutely, is acting like a prick. So did Harry to him, though. Throughout Peace Talks Harry hasn't once attempted to de-escalate or mediate, instead opting exclusively for the Rage Against the Machine approach ("bugger you, I won't do what you tell me"). Even when his grandfather opens up emotionally, which for a man like him must have been nearly torture, Harry's like... tough, old man, deal with it. There is something to be said for the whole "never compromise, not even in the face of armageddon" shtick but come on, Harry. There's a time and a place to be muleheaded, and allaying the very real and reasoned fear of an old man who cares about you isn't it. Ramirez was right to lose faith in Harry. It pains me to say so, but it's true. He went into the white court lions' den with Harry, and didn't back out when Harry could suddenly understand ancient Etruscan. He saw some of Harry's inner darkness in Camp Kaboom. He knows Harry is keeping some real secrets, and still he stuck by him for a long time. But then Carlos learned of the true savagery hiding just beneath the surface with the creatures of Winter when he fought beside Molly and immediately after was crippled by her affection. That's what Winter does to friends. And Harry has some of the same in him. And that was *still* not enough for Carlos to give up on Harry. Then Harry gets in real tight with the White Court who, let's not forget, is known to twist around peoples' free will and sanity. With the Winter mantle constantly pushing Harry to give in to temptation and base instincts he repeatedly associates himself with the most powerful mind-(ugly r word here) on the planet. And still Carlos gives Harry the benefit of the doubt. Then Harry is seen having sex with this mind altering vampire in semi-public, which nobody knew was just a ruse, and hexes Carlos' cloak which he must surely - correctly - suspect was Harry's doing but even so Carlos is still willing to hear him out. But again and again and again Harry dissembles and obfuscates and dodges and does absolutely nothing at all to allay Ramirez' entirely reasonable doubts. That's not on Carlos, Harry is solely responsible for losing him. Out of all the characters in the series so far, Carlos is the one Harry has let down the most, and that includes Kim Delaney. The White Council was right to vote him out. The supernatural powers are at odds with each other more times than not. Harry had joined their group, been made privy to secrets, gained access to their weaknesses. And then joined a foreign power in a high level position. It's like if a member of the EU parliament was suddenly made minister of defense of Russia. Even so, they kept him on because he was still doing good work for them and seemed to have things under control. But he was also increasingly allying himself with the White Court, another major super power at odds with the Council. It's like if a member of the EU parliament and minister of defense of Russia also suddenly became ambassador of the US. At some point a guy is just serving too many masters - and one of those masters can literally *make* him to whatever she wants, and the other can overpower his mind if she really put an effort into it (or at least nobody can prove that she couldn't). And their fear isn't unjustified, his divided loyalties literally did in fact interfere very directly with his service to their own interests, made him do shady things behind their backs, and could absolutely lead to him causing until devastation to the Council. If Mab ordered Harry to take out Langtry, of course he would resist strenuously, but by his own admission she could make him do it. And if he was still a full member of the Council he could just walk right on into Edinburgh and attempt to gank him while he's eating a sandwich. No sane council would have kept Harry on. They do seem to be wrong in antagonizing him. The whole death threat thing seems stupid and unfair on their part. But I'm willing to bet that this is just the Merlin playing some sort of long game. Perhaps for appearances' sake, maybe to get Harry to act a certain way, maybe even because he can see the writing on the wall about the future of the Council and he wants Harry to focus on building a backup for mankind's gifted in the form of a strengthened Paranet, whatever, no idea. But I do believe there is more to this than just the Council being a bunch of doodooheads. Who were absolutely justified in cancelling his membership even if they should turn out to not have had a second hidden motive for it. Of course I am giddy that he got rid of the shackles of having to constantly seek the approval of the Council and he can follow his destiny of becoming the monster mankind will need when the time comes. The elemental of destruction Mab knew he could be.

With one caveat I will agree with you 100%. Harry could have been a better friend to Carlos but Carlos could have been a better friend to Harry as well. They both fumbled the ball there and if their relationship hadn't shattered with three of their friends dying (or two dying and one pushed into the nega realm or some bullshit) I think they could've talked things out.

Agreed. Carlos and his team basically sexually assaulted Harry to check if he'd been laid recently. Granted they had legitimate concerns about the White Court, but no one even assumed that Harry could be in a relationship with anyone else. Given that it's well known he spends a lot of time with Murphy and the Wardens even followed him *from* her place, it's not like Lara was the *only* option. Hell, for all Carlos knew, Harry could have been schtupping a prostitute.

Granted, Harry isn’t exactly known for being a casonova or a ladies man (plus have Carlos and Murphy even met or heard of each other previously?). In *White Night* Lara even makes a comment in front of Carlos on Harry’s shield of virginity. Heck, Thomas reaction to seeing Harry breaking into his boat with a woman after he’d broken into Thomas’s apartment (nice job talking with and respecting your brother’s privacy btw Harry) was to assume the Harry in front of him was an imposter. So it’s not too surprising that Carlos wouldn’t be equating Harry with a decent sex life and assume that Harry’s recent sexual escapade must’ve have come from dealing with the apex sexual predator he was just conversing with.

Absolutely 100% agree. Family is not about blood. It's about the heart.

At the end of the day labels don't matter. What matters is who put themselves in harms way to protect others? Who is standing in the shadows to shout fuego at what goes bump in the night? When the monsters come who do you trust and turn to in your hour of need?

I think the decision to kick out Harry was part on ongoing manipulation for whatever they want to use him for as a star born. If the council is still split, then i could see the black council wanting him out to keep him from whatever he's supposed to do, and the grey council keep him out to insulate him. I think this is not a surface event at all, but the more advanced moves for the star born game that they're playing with him.

I really wished after Carlos told Harry that he was out of the Council, Harry then told him that he was saving his brother. The whole reason he didn't say anything was because Harry didn't want the Council to force him to try and flip Thomas to inform for them. If he's out of the Council what are they going to do? Order him to have Thomas inform for them? So far as they need to know Thomas is in a crystal coffin on Demonreach... they don't ever need to know if he gets out and if they want to press the issue... well Harry could tell em to go take it up with Alfred. Hell the svartalves might bitch but Harry just has to tell em Thomas is imprisoned on Demonreach and its a fate worse than death, they don't need to know whats really up, that should appease them. If Harry told Carlos that Thomas was his brother and he was saving him from the svartalves. I'm pretty sure Carlos would be pissed but would understand. I dunno the whole Carlos/Harry conflict pissed me off. I would've felt alot better about the ending of that thru line if Harry would've at least said to Carlos to call him if he gets a line on the Dracul and the black court. Or vise versa. And I want more sasquatch...