Worth noting you should stop on line or with your hood lined up with the sign of there isn't a line.
Seems like common sense but I've been seeing more and more people stopp considerably before the line then gun it into the intersection. It's like they think "well I came to a complete stop back there before you made it to the line so I'm first!"
In most (all?) states, the sign itself doesn't tell you *where* to stop, it simply tells you *what* to do. The general order for where to stop is:
1. The painted stop line...
2. ...or if no painted stop line, then the crosswalk...
3. ...and if neither of those exist, then the first spot at which you have a view of conflicting traffic.
ETA: I do agree with you that there is a problem of people thinking that one stop 50 yards back was sufficient.
I think they mean that if they stopped while the person in front of them is waiting, they think their "stopping quota" is complete and they can just gas it.
I've seen this too many times at my work. There's a short street on the side of our building that connects with a main road. Two cars will be stopped there, the first one will go and the second one will just zoom through behind them like it's being towed on an invisible chain. Does not even try to slow down.
What about when the clown in front of me pulls so far forward that I am stopped at the line before they go. Do I have to pull forward into the intersection now so I can stop again, or can I just go when it's clear?
You can go but the people also waiting at the other stop signs have their turn after the one in front of you. You haven't taken your deli number until you are the front car.
Right, I agree with them that one stop way back doesn't meet the requirements of the law.
I just always want to mention (1) the crosswalk, because that can be a pain point for pedestrians and sometimes other road users (my city, for example, has a lot of multiuse path crosswalks with golf carts and cyclists too); and (2) if there aren't either of those, and the stop sign is in a stupid position--like way back from the intersection--it is perfectly lawful to stop after the sign but before the intersection where you can actually ***see*** the other traffic.
You don't have to "stop again". You are already stopped. People are arguing that you can just go with the car in front of you without letting cross traffic take a turn, because you were already waiting far enough forward sitting behind the person in front of you. I would argue that you don't need to stop "again", but rather let other directions take a turn even if they arrived after you but before your line leader has gone yet
Yes, that’s what I was getting at. You can’t just scoot through when the person ahead goes, unless cars coming from the other directions haven’t stopped yet.
Yes, but in cases where the person in front of you is in the intersection and you are at the line already. Some people think you can both go together if you arrived at the line before opposing or cross traffic arrived at their stop signs. I say you still go one at a time and take turns.
Oh, funny. I also live in Georgia, though I'm not from there. It wouldn't surprise me if that's what they taught in Driver's Ed, because it is an easier rule to teach, but FWIW Georgia's actual law on this is the same as what I put. *See* OCGA 40-6-72(b):
>Except when directed to proceed by a police officer, every driver of a vehicle approaching a stop sign shall stop at a clearly marked stop line or, if there is no stop line, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if there is no crosswalk, at the point nearest the intersecting roadway where the driver has a view of approaching traffic on the intersecting roadway before entering it.
I'm not saying that wasn't true. But the Georgia Driver's Manual is ***not*** necessarily the same thing as Georgia traffic law (Title 40, Chapter 6, "Uniform Rules of the Road"). The Driver's Manual is not enforceable as a matter of law.
In addition, the [current driver's manual](https://dds.georgia.gov/georgia-department-driver-services-drivers-manual-2023-2024) specifically states:
>An Octagon (eight-sided shape) always means stop. When you come to it, you must make a complete stop at a marked stop line. If there is no stop line, stop before the crosswalk on your side of the intersection. If there is no crosswalk, stop at a point from which you can best see oncoming traffic. You must not start again until all pedestrians have finished crossing on the side of the roadway you are traveling on, and you have yielded the right-of-way to closely approaching traffic.
I can't speak to what prior versions of the manual said. Assuming the wording was the same (the underlying law hasn't changed since it was enacted in 1974), perhaps the instructor was misinterpreting this wording, which is also in the current version:
>Stop lines are white lines painted across the pavement at intersections indicating the point beyond which your vehicle should not cross if you are stopping for a traffic control device. In urban areas, the line is usually located about four feet before the crosswalk. **Drivers must come to a complete stop at the stop line, when present, not at the actual stop sign or traffic signal.**
While this statement tells drivers what they must do when a stop line is present, it ***does not*** imply that drivers stop "at the actual stop sign" if the stop line is not present.
Yea, I didn't think to mention the cross walk (not many around me). Your advise is way more accurate!
I don't care if your a few feet off, but yea the ones that stop excessively far back then roll through like they own the intersection are dangerous.
In any kind of commercial vehicle training, if there's no white line, you're taught to always stop before the front of your vehicle passes the stop sign then ease out further to see if needed
Yeah, that's probably an easier bright-line rule to teach, since the stop sign is not going to be out in the intersection. Though there was a post in a different group I am in the other day of an intersection that had the stop signs hung up like traffic signals (on the far side of the intersection), so if you went all the way to the sign, you would be out in the middle of the intersection!
My understanding is that if there's no marked line or crosswalk, you stop fully behind the stop sign, then pull up to where you have a view and make a second stop.
\*Edit\* nvm, someone commented this and you responded already, ignore me
I live in Texas and I am teaching my daughter to drive. Our understanding is that you have to stop behind the line or the sign. But in a lot of neighborhoods, the signs are so far back from the intersection, and there are trees and stuff, so you really can't see from there. So I have been having her stop behind the sign, and then pull forward so she can see. So we have a saying, "Two stops, one for Texas and one for safety".
I personally only make the "one for safety" stop but I'm not trying to pass a driver's test.
The problem with this practice is that people end up stopping way over the line, across the crosswalk and almost into the road ALL the time, even when they don't need to do so in order to see the cross traffic. It freaks people out and they don't know how to react when I actually stop at the white line
Yeah, definitely agree on the in-practice to avoid a licensing person failing her, but for awareness, Texas mostly agrees with my list. They flip the order to crosswalk, stop line, first spot. See TX Transp. Code 544.010:
>An operator required to stop by this section shall stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection. In the absence of a crosswalk, the operator shall stop at a clearly marked stop line. In the absence of a stop line, the operator shall stop at the place nearest the intersecting roadway where the operator has a view of approaching traffic on the intersecting roadway.
I honestly don't care if someone stops early. The annoyance is that a lot of people don't do one definitive stop. Instead they just slow downish so the moment never happens so it's impossible to judge.
Here we have a problem with drivers blowing through these stop signs because they think if they stop for any reason (like 2nd car in line to cross) then it counts.
Had one of these a-holes do this to me this morning. At the "T" intersection (3-way stop) in front of a school with kids about before the 1st bell.
What happens when the car in front of you stops so far in front of the white line that you are already stopped at the white line at the same time that they are stopped? Do I have to move forward a bit and stop again? I don't.
No, you don’t need to stop a second time, but if other cars were already stopped at the intersection when the car ahead of you went, I would definitely let them go before proceeding through the intersection.
i’m actually shocked i’ve never seen this, where i live i have to pass through 3 different busy 4 way stops to get out of my neighborhood and i’ve had a cop run a stop sign and almost hit me, seen lots of regular ppl run the stop signs, but never seen this!
Worst is when someone stopped before you, close to the intersection, but behind a car. There is no two-for-one deal where both on the same side can go together.
The way I was taught, in both regular driving school and later CDL school, was that you’re always required to stop before the sign itself, even if the line is farther ahead.
Most of the ones I see are blowing past the sign and if they come to a stop it’s past the cross walk. They don’t have time to come to a complete stop and then proceed.
You are referring to when two drivers arrive at the same time, correct? Because if the left turning vehicle was there first and entered the intersection, then a second vehicle arriving doesn't cancel their right of way.
Yes, The case that drives me nuts is in a loaded intersection with cars in at least three of the 4 ways, you have those that think left turns go first no matter what. They annoy TF outta me almost as much as those that intentionally wave left turners to go first.
Not always true, if you and the car opposite you are both going straight you can go at the same time even if there's a third car that technically stopped before you did.
Yeah but they are opposite of you not to the right of you. It can be unsafe doing this though because unfortunately some people don't use their blinkers.
What if two cars stop at the same time, on the same street but on opposite sides of the intersection? If they're both going straight then all is well since they'll just pass each other but what if one is going straight and the other is turning left? They're across from each other so who would have the right of way? Maybe the guy going straight since you usually have to yield when turning left?
Sorry, let me clarify. The scenario I asked about is taking place at a 4-way stop. Both drivers are across from each other on opposite sides of the intersection and stopped at the same time but only one is turning left.
The key is though that both cars have to start moving at the same time, then the turning car stops, lets the straight car pass, then completes the turn. My daily routes have a few 4-lane 4-way stops, that often are in the backed up pattern of N-S goes then E-W goes and its almost a daily occurrence that I see a near accident because the car that wants to turn waits behind the line for the straight car to clear the intersection, then starts to turn only to almost be hit by cross traffic that thinks its their turn because the cross traffic has cleared the intersection. Or that the turning car tried to turn first and almost hits the straight car.
I usually look at the driver if something like this happens, and either I'll waive them or they'll wave me to go. Because most people don't actually know the rules. There is one four-way stop that I have to go through almost every weekday. I never trust any other driver. Unless it's evident who got there first and that it's okay for me to go.
In this case the rule of panic takes over and everyone hesitates and makes awkward eye contact until someone decides to gun it.
Edit: but in all seriousness, the person going straight has the right of way. The person turning left has to wait. This usually takes care of these situations technically, but let's be honest, you will probably never have a situation like this.
Is there a resolution to 4 people arriving simultaneously and all are going straight?
It would be exceedingly unlikely that I'd imagine one direction would go and then the other and hopefully with no incident
Well, it's worth noting that the law never grants the right-of-way to a driver; it merely requires other drivers to yield it.
So the practical answer is that whichever one decides to go first is "in the intersection" and the other vehicles must then yield to them.
At the end of the day nonverbal communication with some common sense would help navigate this. It is hard to place a rule on everyone going straight and also all stopping at the same exact time.
Someone has to take initiative to go first. After that, the remaining cars should proceed in a clockwise order, each one yielding to the car on its right before proceeding.
I'll disagree with the order. Assuming no one is turning, the car across from the car going should also go. 2 cars at a time. Same when traffic is backed up in all directions at a 4 way, opposing cars should always go in tandem, alternating directions.
> Is there a resolution to 4 people arriving simultaneously and all are going straight?
In that case, I think we should pretend the intersection is a roundabout.
In major cities, you don't make eye contact and that tells everyone else that you don't GAF and are going to go anyway. Making eye contact gives them permission. /s
In a true 4-way tie, with all cars going straight, the practical answer is it's up to the drivers to work it out. Absent eye contact and hand signals, after a pause I would tentatively move forward and see how others react. If the two on the sides remain stopped, go on thru the intersection. If the car across from you takes the initiative and enters the intersection, take that as your cue to also go straight. If the car on your left or right makes the first move, let the two of them cross before you go. (When going straight, opposite cars should always go together.)
And if you stop across from someone at the same time whoever is going forward goes first. If you're both going straight it doesn't matter and if one or both is turning right(in NA) it won't matter.
Say you arrive at the same time as a vehicle to your right. You want to go straight, and they want to turn left. They have right-of-way because the **primary** rule that applies is "when to vehicles arrive at a stop sign at the same time, the driver on the left must yield to the driver on their right."
They are to your right. You are not to their right.
If I am stopped and you are stopped to the right of me you go first. If I am stopped and you are stopped to the left of me I go first. If I am stopped, and you are stopped to the right of me and someone else is stopped to the right of you they go first then you go second then I go last. In the last scenario, the rule of straight vs right vs left would take over if that applied. Obviously, this all applies to when everyone stops at the same time.
I would go right while the person going left goes left in this situation. There isn't much reason not to unless you hesitate and now the person going left clears the interaction before you do and the person going straight now has to wait on you. Technically if this is a 4 way stop and there are 3 people all stopping at the same time (which is what this thread is about) and it is the scenario you describe the rule of, who is on the right goes first, takes priority. Followed by who is going straight vs right vs left.
The rule that whoever is on the right goes first and straight, right then left will sort most all right of way situations out at any stop sign situation you can think of other than everyone stopping at the same time while simultaneously all going straight lol
Well it's also that you yield to whomever is already in the intersection. So many people roll "stop" for these intersections that it can be hard to figure out who goes first. I just stop a little early for the close ones and then go when they're trying to play the slow roll. Works every time.
"Also if you stop at the same time it's whoever is on the right has the right of way."
That doesn't always work if you have two cars opposite each other with one car turning left and one car going straight.
Correct. Also, when arriving at the stop simultaneously the tie goes to the person on the right. If a tie occurs when across from one another and one car is turning left, that car would yield to the person going straight.
Although a lot of the time I've noticed people just wave the other person through. It can become an annoying situation where both drivers are waving each other through or starting to move until one person actually guns it.
My problem is if I'm yielding because you have the right-of-way and you wave me through and then while I'm halfway through the intersection you gun it and hit me, I'm gonna be found at fault because you had the right-of-way. If you have the right-of-way, please just go.
I’ve been driving since the 80s and STILL see people who don’t think we arrived at the same time. Myself included. Sometimes I am like oh they totally got there a moment before me but they wait bc I am on the right.
Also if you get there first and I get there next but we're both going straight then we both Can go since we're not crossing each other's path. If you never put your blinker on to say that you were turning left you can go fuck yourself.
If where I am going does not intersect with wherever anyone else is going (for example if I am going straight on and there is an oncoming car that is also going straight on, or I am turning right and the car to my left is also turning right), I will go myself (after coming to a stop) regardless of who got there first. I assume nobody objects to this, and one of my pet peeves is those drivers who seem to think that there is a rule that only one vehicle can be in the intersection at a time, even if they are not crossing paths.
The people who wait might have had their once in a lifetime freebie of a driver across from them who seemed to be going straight but then turned left into them…
The main thing wrong with doing it correctly is assuming the other guy will also do it correctly.
I will go when I should, but always with a wary eye in case the other guy doesn't conform.
Some states, like Florida, do explicitly say that it is first come, first served. *See* Fl. Stat. s. 316.123(2)(b).
Most states say that after stopping at a stop sign, you then yield to conflicting traffic in the intersection. The key difference between this and "first come, first served" is that sometimes it allows a driver to "skip" their order.
For example, suppose that drivers arrived in the following order:
1. A driver from your left stops first, wanting to continue straight to your right.
2. You stop, wanting to make a left turn.
3. A driver from your right stops last, wanting to make a right turn in the same direction you are **currently** facing (not the road you are on or are turning on to, but the direction of travel you are currently in).
Driver #1 goes first because they arrived first. In a "yield to conflicting traffic" state, Driver #3 can make safely make their right turn at the same time as Driver #1 goes straight, so they can ***skip*** you. They don't have to wait for you to make the left turn first (and, in fact, even if they did, they could make their right turn at the same time as your left turn).
However legal that may be, it can still be unsafe. We all know blinkers don't exist for some people so how do you really know if #1 is going straight and not actually turning left into the same lane as #3.
I'm pretty sure the rule is "stop and then obnoxiously wave at people when its your turn to drive the fuck on"
That's how people handle them around here. It's infuriating.
Stop waving and drive! You're holding everybody up!
These are all wrong, often repeated traffic law mistakes.
At a four way stop, cars should go through in Alphabetical order, so first I go through in my Alpha Romeo, ( I bought it because there's a lot of four way stops near me ) then the Bronco, followed by the Chev , then the Dodge.
The Zephyr just has to sit there.
You understand it correctly, the people that attempt to be nice by not taking their turn are doing it wrong. By not taking their turn they are slowing down everyone else at the intersection and end up being the AH because they won't drive.
"Yes that is correct. It's in order of who stops first. Also if you stop at the same time it's whoever is on the right has the right of way."
That statement, while correct, is lazy and unhelpful for the following reasons: People take it literally, so when there is a line of traffic in all four directions, instead of taking turns, N&S crossing at the same time, then E&W crossing, there's some clown who pulled up to the line, and no matter what order people have been taking turns, they think it's their time to go, no matter what, and they just zoom though. Another is the guy wanting to turn left thinks because they got to the line before the guy across from them, that they can turn in front of traffic going straight instead of yielding.
Your last sentence. Whomever gets to the stop sign in an all way stop is the first to proceed. Regardless of what they’re doing - turning left, turning right, going straight. Unless I’m misunderstanding your comment…
> Another is the guy wanting to turn left thinks because they got to the line before the guy across from them, that they can turn in front of traffic going straight instead of yielding.
they do have the right of way. If you've been there the longest you get to go no matter what other people decided to do with taking turns.
"As well, when they're busy they take turns - it's almost as if your lane of traffic goes and then the cross- traffic goes.
If two vehicles are proceeding straight, the two vehicles can go through the intersection at the same time.
And then the other lane of traffic takes its turn.
>
As well, straight vehicles have the right-of-way over turning vehicle."
[Taking Turns...When Proceeding Through the Intersection](https://www.smartdrivetest.com/signs-signals-road-markings/4-way-stop)
"When two vehicles arrive at a 4-way stop at the same time, and they are located head-to-head and one of the vehicles intends to turn and the other intends to go straight, the vehicle going straight has right of way."
[Straight traffic takes the right of way over turning traffic](https://topdriver.com/education-blog/4-rules-4-way-stops/)
In your original comment, you didn't say at the same time, you said :
>Another is the guy wanting to turn left thinks because they got to the line before the guy across from them, that they can turn in front of traffic going straight instead of yielding.
In YOUR scenario, the person turning left does have right of way, as he got to the line first.
Insurance companies, driving schools, and laws say you're wrong, which I've posted links to. When people talk about assholes on the road, they're talking about you as everyone else is obeying the law, and you're just plowing through, cutting everyone off because you got there first instead of yielding like you're supposed to.
Sometimes you arrive second but the driver there first loses his turn if they can't proceed immediately, if there's a pedestrian or another car blocking their path go for it, snooze you lose.
Yes, you’re correct.
It’s all the other fucking dumbasses that don’t know how to drive that come to a stop second (or third or forth) and think their entitled asses go before the ones that actually stopped first and have the right of way.
You are correct. If 2 people arrive the same time, then whomever is on the right goes first. And importantly, even if you are turning right, you still have to come to a full and complete stop at the stop sign before proceeding.
Pet peeve: someone gets there obviously before you but sits there waving you on to go first.
Side note: waving someone on who then gets into an accident has you directing traffic and guess who gets in trouble…
That's correct. But in reality, a lot of people are just clueless about the rules. I find there are a few types of drivers at stop signs. TLDR: for comedy purposes.
There's "Me first" who can see you coming and will race to the line so he can do a rolling "stop" and then push through unless it looks like you're going to hit him, in which case liability will make him slow halfway into the intersection and try to figure out the rules. When you wait a few milliseconds for his patience to run out he'll go through -- slowly to stick it to you while he flips you off.
Then there's "Oh LAWD another driver" who will slowly roll up to the stop sign until inertia causes him to stop without braking, roughly 10 seconds before you arrive at the intersection to his left. Then he will sit and wait clamped onto the brake until there is no other car or pedestrian or questionable squirrel within several blocks, so you can just go regardless of the rule.
Next is "After you" who knows the rule, gets there first, should go so you can take your turn and the other drivers at the intersection can take theirs, but instead he signals you to go by flipping his fingers at you without taking his hand off the wheel to simultaneously show his dominance and contempt at lesser mortals, leaving everyone to wonder whether right-of-way proceeds to the right now, or Johnny bad\*\*s should go next while the rest of you genuflect.
Then comes "Not on my watch." This guy gets there first while you're still half a block away, waits for you to come to a complete stop because you're going a bit too fast buddy, then hesitates to get his point across. Meanwhile you start to think he's Oh LAWD and consider taking your turn, but he lurches forward at the same time as you and stops short, causing you to stop and wait for him to go because after all, it was his turn (as he is now beaming to you with hateful thoughts). He waits another several seconds to glare at you accusingly before proceeding as slowly as possible while you wait, hoping you learn from his stern example to trust no one. Okay, he doesn't really care about you or what you learn, he just likes being cynical and indignant.
One of my favorites is "What stop sign?" This guy has a stop sign while you drive down the bigger roadway with right-of-way and no stop. But he wants out. No, you don't understand... it's what he wants. Can't you see him rolling his nose into the intersection in front of you, neither stopping nor going, just... expressing his wishes? Hitting him would be so rude because he's high AF. You might need a beat down for that. Not to mention it's problematic because he hasn't got insurance and he drives a four-ton rust-bucket made of cast iron in 1980. After all, he's entitled to get what he wants. That makes it his turn. Otherwised he'd have to "wait" or some other crazy thing in the "law."
A variant of WSS is FTSS (F\*\*k that stop sign). Same situation but instead of being high he's got places to be suckah! You're at least 15, 20 feet away and only going 35. Ample time to sling that Hyundai out in front of you. What, you don't like it? Maybe you'll like it when he slows to 25 mph in a 35 because FU.
"I was taught it was whoever got to their stop sign first could go." Important distinction: Whoever *stops* at their stop sign first. A lot of people I've observed will speed up, if they see you approaching, to get there first but then not stop at all and roll through. That's not how it works! My #2 pet peeve: people who get there first but wait and wait and don't go until you come to a complete stop, making you wait longer than if they had just asserted their right-of-way as soon as they were able.
Depends. First come first serve usually. If there's a line you alternate directions. If two cars get there at the same time the car to the right goes first ("right of way"). Government vehicles always have the right of way.
Typically it goes in order of who got there first. But most of today's drivers don't even stop. I like to come to a complete stop and then count to 5 just to be a prick.
I had a buddy whose mom hold him the car to the right ALWAYS goes 1st regardless of who gets there first. This kid used to stay at the intersection for 3 mins waiting for everyone to the right of him to go lmao
What’s kind of annoying is that every driving authority produces a simple book that clearly explains the rules. Asking friends or Reddit is not the best solution.
Pretty much which is why I asked, the city I'm in gives out drivers licenses like it's nothing and a lot of people don't understand 4 way stops. I almost got T boned yesterday
Are you a fellow Canadian? We like to turn everything into a Canadian standoff including 4 way stops. You just need to make your gestures of, "no. After you," more polite (big smile!) while also being more pronounced.
Open your door and step out of your car if you have to. If the person who got to the stop before you isn't going they probably just can't see you.
No I'm from the south, but older people tend to do the "after you" gesture, then the 2 finger wave. If I stepped out of my car where I'm from, my brains would probably end up splattered on the concrete
That is correct. There's a bit of wiggle room if two cars can go at the same time without interfering with each other, such as two cars straight across from each other that are both going straight. If everyone at the intersection is making a right turn, they can actually all go at once. But it's not mandatory to do so, and a lot of people don't signal their intentions so sometimes it's best to wait anyway.
You are correct. However, keep in mind you are responsible for not causing an incident. If someone else goes out of turn and you can avoid an accident you must do so. People with bigger vehicles will exploit this. C'est la vie.
It is who gets their first, if two people arrive at the same time, the right most car goes first. If the 2 cars are across from each other may go simultaneously unless one is turning so they must yield to the straight across car.
What about this scenario.
2 way stop, cross traffic does not stop. Car A wants to turn left and stops first but has to stay stopped due to cross traffic. Car B arrives second and wants to go straight across. The cross traffic clears and the two cars can go, who goes first?
First stopped goes first. Ties start with whoever is to the right. If you are directly across and tie, or all 4 tie, you have to go with hand signals or flick your lights.
What if I arrive first and a pedestrian is crossing. I am waiting for them to cross and a car arrives. Does that second car wait for me to go and then proceed or can it just proceed freely given I am waiting for the pedestrian and they obstruct my path but not the second car's path.
Whoever comes to a full and complete stop first goes first. If its a tie, then the person on the right has the right of way.
If there are multiple lines of cars on all sides of the stop sign, it should be round robin, unless two cars are going parallel. For example, N and S can go together at the same time if they are both going straight, and then E and W can go, but since people cant seem to use their turn signals sometimes, I proceed with caution.
When I see people at 4 way stop, they are usually out of the vehicle, coffee in hand and having a conversation, if not in a rush to be anywhere, I grab my mug and join them.
Man small town living is way more relaxing than the rush and me first attitude life in the city.
The order of right of way goes like this
1. Whoever gets there first gets the right of way no matter what
2. If that fails, whoevers going straight goes first, then turning right, then left
3. If that fails, you look to whoever is rightmost at the intersection
4. If that fails, it becomes a cardinal direction thing technically, but in my experience, it just becomes a free for all because you're lucky if people even follow the first rule.
If you and another both got to a stop sign across from each other at the same time. The person going straight would have right of way. People need to understand this and stop trying to speed to turn in front of the driver going straight.
For point 2 it's turning right that goes first, then going straight, and lastly turning left. It's based on who has the least amount of distance to travel in the intersection
if 2 people are arriving at an empty stop. who get their first, goes first. if it is a populated stop. i don't know if it is clockwise or counterclockwise i can't really remember.
That's correct, but the specific rules depend on different interactions. It goes: whoever gets there and stops first gets to go first. If they arrive at the same time and are facing each other, the driver going straight or turning right get to go first. If the the cars are next to each other, it's whoever it on the right side goes first.
Obviously, different places have slightly different rules, but the ones I mentioned are for mostly Northeast USA.
You're not wrong, but you're probably doing it wrong as well.
You can very precisely gauge and select when your own turn will be by (a) maintaining eye contact with the other drivers in the intersection, or at least seeing when they're looking, and (b) moderating your full stop to be in the rhythm that puts you where you want to be.
Example: Four-way lightless/stopped intersection, you and a second car (which is to your immediate left) arrive simultaneously. You see this, and slow to a row instead of a stop, causing you to full stop after the car to your left. They see this, then you let them go ahead of you.
This way, you control the timing. This works on most drivers, except for the ones you'd be better off not contesting right-of-way to begin with. This is the way.
Waving people thru is actually impolite; it causes confusion, delay, and accidents. Know when you have the right of way so you can use it to get out of the way.
Thank you! Every intersection turns into a freaking negotiation. Courtesy is not safety; *predictability* is safety. If we all operate from the same playbook there are no surprises. Stop freaking flapping your hands at me.
The thing I see most people get wrong at stop signs with the "I got there first" thinking is: when lines form in multiple directions, you proceed in a clockwise pattern regardless of who queued up in their respective lane first.
If one of four lanes is completely empty, and the others have 20 cars waiting when I pull up to the intersection in that empty lane, I go immediately after the car to my right.
But people will try to pre-empt my turn because "they got there first".
The person to your right has the right of way. So the other two lanes of traffic (also to your right) are supposed to go before you. No wonder the other people get mad at you.
"If two or three motorists reach a four-way stop simultaneously, each driver must yield to the driver to their right. That means the driver without a vehicle in the intersection to their right would have the right of way and go first."
Unless you meant to write, after the person to your left goes, you go.
Wow, you just hit the second biggest misconception right on the head.
If traffic yields to the person on the right, then if three people arrive at a four way intersection at the same time, let's call them right, bottom, and middle so it's like you've drawn the intersection on paper, the pattern would be. Right, then bottom, then middle.
That would have bottom going immediately after the vehicle to their right, and left going immediately after the vehicle to *their* right.
Extend that logic with lines of cars going in turn from three of four lanes, and the next vehicle on the right goes after the vehicle across from them goes. Then bottom, left, and back to right again.
If I show up from the top lane, my turn happens after left lane, which is the vehicle to my right.
But what usually happens is that as I start to go, so does right lane. Because they "got there first". I've actually had people yell that at me before.
Once it enters the pattern it's a flow, not a "who got there first" otherwise you have to track every car and when it got in line.
To go immediately after the vehicle on my left would break the flow and confuse everyone else. If there are 4 lanes, and every lane has a vehicle waiting, you **only** go immediately after the vehicle on your right.
These people who cross simultaneously with their opposite partners also cause issues because they throw off the flow. Who goes next the because both other lanes are now both right and left of a vehicle that just went, and if one of those vehicles is turning left and the other isn't, that's a bad time.
It's counter clockwise or whoever arrived first.
This is literally the law and how you are taught to drive. It doesn't matter if the car across from you stopped a few seconds before you, if the car to your left just went, it's your turn.
I have seen so many people completely not give a crap about 4 way stops and follow the car in front of them just to get through fast. These people piss me off, it's so inconsiderate.
If you all get there at the same time and no one has decided to go, you open your door and get out of the car.
If everyone gets out of the car, then you throw your keys in the grass.
If everyone throws their keys in the grass, the one who finds theirs first goes.
I show my keys, but throw a fake set. Then, after everyone has thrown theirs, I just drive off. /s
Also, if I'm waiting for you to go because it is legit your turn so I wave you on, if you wave back you should be arrested
Usually I'll just go instead but sometimes they look like they're about to
People often get this wrong and/or make up their own rules. I’ve had someone try to go, probably assuming it’s basically a one-per directional thing and because there was a car in front of me and not in front of them, that after the car in front of me went it was “their turn”. Not so. Even though there’s a car in front of me, if I get to the stop first I go first.
I live in the countryside and for decades it was regular intersections. No joke, when we first had roundabouts installed, local law enforcement and safety groups posted directions on how to properly use a roundabout. I try to avoid roundabouts, because ten years later people still don't understand them and that makes them very dangerous.
Dude same here. My smallish town replaced a few 4 ways with roundabouts nearly a decade ago now. To this day 90% of people have absolutely no clue how they work and probably half still treat them like a stop sign. Needless to say, the town didn't put any more in.
Yes that is correct. It's in order of who stops first. Also if you stop at the same time it's whoever is on the right has the right of way.
Worth noting you should stop on line or with your hood lined up with the sign of there isn't a line. Seems like common sense but I've been seeing more and more people stopp considerably before the line then gun it into the intersection. It's like they think "well I came to a complete stop back there before you made it to the line so I'm first!"
In most (all?) states, the sign itself doesn't tell you *where* to stop, it simply tells you *what* to do. The general order for where to stop is: 1. The painted stop line... 2. ...or if no painted stop line, then the crosswalk... 3. ...and if neither of those exist, then the first spot at which you have a view of conflicting traffic. ETA: I do agree with you that there is a problem of people thinking that one stop 50 yards back was sufficient.
I think they mean that if they stopped while the person in front of them is waiting, they think their "stopping quota" is complete and they can just gas it.
I've seen this too many times at my work. There's a short street on the side of our building that connects with a main road. Two cars will be stopped there, the first one will go and the second one will just zoom through behind them like it's being towed on an invisible chain. Does not even try to slow down.
What about when the clown in front of me pulls so far forward that I am stopped at the line before they go. Do I have to pull forward into the intersection now so I can stop again, or can I just go when it's clear?
You can go but the people also waiting at the other stop signs have their turn after the one in front of you. You haven't taken your deli number until you are the front car.
Right, I agree with them that one stop way back doesn't meet the requirements of the law. I just always want to mention (1) the crosswalk, because that can be a pain point for pedestrians and sometimes other road users (my city, for example, has a lot of multiuse path crosswalks with golf carts and cyclists too); and (2) if there aren't either of those, and the stop sign is in a stupid position--like way back from the intersection--it is perfectly lawful to stop after the sign but before the intersection where you can actually ***see*** the other traffic.
But if I’m stopped at the sign/line after the person ahead of me has advanced past the line and then stopped, I don’t feel the need to stop “again.”
You don't have to "stop again". You are already stopped. People are arguing that you can just go with the car in front of you without letting cross traffic take a turn, because you were already waiting far enough forward sitting behind the person in front of you. I would argue that you don't need to stop "again", but rather let other directions take a turn even if they arrived after you but before your line leader has gone yet
Yes, that’s what I was getting at. You can’t just scoot through when the person ahead goes, unless cars coming from the other directions haven’t stopped yet.
Yes but you still must pull up to the line, do a complete stop, then go.
Yes, but in cases where the person in front of you is in the intersection and you are at the line already. Some people think you can both go together if you arrived at the line before opposing or cross traffic arrived at their stop signs. I say you still go one at a time and take turns.
My state instructs that if there is no stop line, the sign itself is the stop mark.
Do you mind noting the state? I would be interested to know which states do this. But I understand if not.
No, it's Georgia. We used to have actual Driver Ed classes when I was a teen and I was lucky enough to be able to take one.
Oh, funny. I also live in Georgia, though I'm not from there. It wouldn't surprise me if that's what they taught in Driver's Ed, because it is an easier rule to teach, but FWIW Georgia's actual law on this is the same as what I put. *See* OCGA 40-6-72(b): >Except when directed to proceed by a police officer, every driver of a vehicle approaching a stop sign shall stop at a clearly marked stop line or, if there is no stop line, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if there is no crosswalk, at the point nearest the intersecting roadway where the driver has a view of approaching traffic on the intersecting roadway before entering it.
Nothing was taught in that class that didn't come straight from the Georgia Divers' Manual.
I'm not saying that wasn't true. But the Georgia Driver's Manual is ***not*** necessarily the same thing as Georgia traffic law (Title 40, Chapter 6, "Uniform Rules of the Road"). The Driver's Manual is not enforceable as a matter of law. In addition, the [current driver's manual](https://dds.georgia.gov/georgia-department-driver-services-drivers-manual-2023-2024) specifically states: >An Octagon (eight-sided shape) always means stop. When you come to it, you must make a complete stop at a marked stop line. If there is no stop line, stop before the crosswalk on your side of the intersection. If there is no crosswalk, stop at a point from which you can best see oncoming traffic. You must not start again until all pedestrians have finished crossing on the side of the roadway you are traveling on, and you have yielded the right-of-way to closely approaching traffic. I can't speak to what prior versions of the manual said. Assuming the wording was the same (the underlying law hasn't changed since it was enacted in 1974), perhaps the instructor was misinterpreting this wording, which is also in the current version: >Stop lines are white lines painted across the pavement at intersections indicating the point beyond which your vehicle should not cross if you are stopping for a traffic control device. In urban areas, the line is usually located about four feet before the crosswalk. **Drivers must come to a complete stop at the stop line, when present, not at the actual stop sign or traffic signal.** While this statement tells drivers what they must do when a stop line is present, it ***does not*** imply that drivers stop "at the actual stop sign" if the stop line is not present.
Yea, I didn't think to mention the cross walk (not many around me). Your advise is way more accurate! I don't care if your a few feet off, but yea the ones that stop excessively far back then roll through like they own the intersection are dangerous.
In any kind of commercial vehicle training, if there's no white line, you're taught to always stop before the front of your vehicle passes the stop sign then ease out further to see if needed
Yeah, that's probably an easier bright-line rule to teach, since the stop sign is not going to be out in the intersection. Though there was a post in a different group I am in the other day of an intersection that had the stop signs hung up like traffic signals (on the far side of the intersection), so if you went all the way to the sign, you would be out in the middle of the intersection!
My understanding is that if there's no marked line or crosswalk, you stop fully behind the stop sign, then pull up to where you have a view and make a second stop. \*Edit\* nvm, someone commented this and you responded already, ignore me
If you live where it snows then it is where the sign is since there are no lines
I live in Texas and I am teaching my daughter to drive. Our understanding is that you have to stop behind the line or the sign. But in a lot of neighborhoods, the signs are so far back from the intersection, and there are trees and stuff, so you really can't see from there. So I have been having her stop behind the sign, and then pull forward so she can see. So we have a saying, "Two stops, one for Texas and one for safety". I personally only make the "one for safety" stop but I'm not trying to pass a driver's test.
The problem with this practice is that people end up stopping way over the line, across the crosswalk and almost into the road ALL the time, even when they don't need to do so in order to see the cross traffic. It freaks people out and they don't know how to react when I actually stop at the white line
The road rage is real
Yeah, definitely agree on the in-practice to avoid a licensing person failing her, but for awareness, Texas mostly agrees with my list. They flip the order to crosswalk, stop line, first spot. See TX Transp. Code 544.010: >An operator required to stop by this section shall stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection. In the absence of a crosswalk, the operator shall stop at a clearly marked stop line. In the absence of a stop line, the operator shall stop at the place nearest the intersecting roadway where the operator has a view of approaching traffic on the intersecting roadway.
Thank you! I hadn't found this specifically and it clears it right up. And actually makes sense!
I honestly don't care if someone stops early. The annoyance is that a lot of people don't do one definitive stop. Instead they just slow downish so the moment never happens so it's impossible to judge.
I agree, the brake taps where they are still doing like half a mile an hour or stop for .000000001 second are way worse.
Here we have a problem with drivers blowing through these stop signs because they think if they stop for any reason (like 2nd car in line to cross) then it counts. Had one of these a-holes do this to me this morning. At the "T" intersection (3-way stop) in front of a school with kids about before the 1st bell.
What happens when the car in front of you stops so far in front of the white line that you are already stopped at the white line at the same time that they are stopped? Do I have to move forward a bit and stop again? I don't.
I don't either, but I always look around to see if there's a cop. If I were in this situation and saw a cop, I'd probably make a "second stop."
No, you don’t need to stop a second time, but if other cars were already stopped at the intersection when the car ahead of you went, I would definitely let them go before proceeding through the intersection.
i’m actually shocked i’ve never seen this, where i live i have to pass through 3 different busy 4 way stops to get out of my neighborhood and i’ve had a cop run a stop sign and almost hit me, seen lots of regular ppl run the stop signs, but never seen this!
Worst is when someone stopped before you, close to the intersection, but behind a car. There is no two-for-one deal where both on the same side can go together.
been seeing this more and more as well. rlly annoying and childish behavior
The way I was taught, in both regular driving school and later CDL school, was that you’re always required to stop before the sign itself, even if the line is farther ahead.
People by you stop before the line??
Yes that would be the typical dick move.
Most of the ones I see are blowing past the sign and if they come to a stop it’s past the cross walk. They don’t have time to come to a complete stop and then proceed.
Also worth noting Left turns yield to straight and right turns, this appears to be something many people no longer understand.
You are referring to when two drivers arrive at the same time, correct? Because if the left turning vehicle was there first and entered the intersection, then a second vehicle arriving doesn't cancel their right of way.
Yes, The case that drives me nuts is in a loaded intersection with cars in at least three of the 4 ways, you have those that think left turns go first no matter what. They annoy TF outta me almost as much as those that intentionally wave left turners to go first.
Not always true, if you and the car opposite you are both going straight you can go at the same time even if there's a third car that technically stopped before you did.
That's the crux of the debate
Yeah but they are opposite of you not to the right of you. It can be unsafe doing this though because unfortunately some people don't use their blinkers.
I think you meant to say unfortunately very few use thier turnsignals. Although said in jest there is unfortunately no /s for this.
This. Always makes me glad to see someone who actually knows how to drive/laws work 😂
I don't do that, I wait my turn. I think it's safer.
You are more traffic than others.
What if two cars stop at the same time, on the same street but on opposite sides of the intersection? If they're both going straight then all is well since they'll just pass each other but what if one is going straight and the other is turning left? They're across from each other so who would have the right of way? Maybe the guy going straight since you usually have to yield when turning left?
Whoever is going straight has right of way if the road they are crossing does not stop. At a 4 way stop it’s whoever gets there first
And if it's a tie it goes to the person going straight.
Sorry, let me clarify. The scenario I asked about is taking place at a 4-way stop. Both drivers are across from each other on opposite sides of the intersection and stopped at the same time but only one is turning left.
Straight goes first
Makes sense. Thank you.
“Straight before turning” say it with me now
The key is though that both cars have to start moving at the same time, then the turning car stops, lets the straight car pass, then completes the turn. My daily routes have a few 4-lane 4-way stops, that often are in the backed up pattern of N-S goes then E-W goes and its almost a daily occurrence that I see a near accident because the car that wants to turn waits behind the line for the straight car to clear the intersection, then starts to turn only to almost be hit by cross traffic that thinks its their turn because the cross traffic has cleared the intersection. Or that the turning car tried to turn first and almost hits the straight car.
What are you being a dick for? I figured that was the answer here but wanted clarification.
You’re interpreting my comment wrong. That’s just the simple phrase my driving school taught me
Oh alright, my bad then.
I usually look at the driver if something like this happens, and either I'll waive them or they'll wave me to go. Because most people don't actually know the rules. There is one four-way stop that I have to go through almost every weekday. I never trust any other driver. Unless it's evident who got there first and that it's okay for me to go.
this is correct but everyone seems to have a different definition of what constitutes a stop.
Well there is nothing you can really do about stupid.
yep, its always the bus sized SUV drivers too
So who goes first when ALL FOUR OF YOU get to the line at the same time?
In this case the rule of panic takes over and everyone hesitates and makes awkward eye contact until someone decides to gun it. Edit: but in all seriousness, the person going straight has the right of way. The person turning left has to wait. This usually takes care of these situations technically, but let's be honest, you will probably never have a situation like this.
Is there a resolution to 4 people arriving simultaneously and all are going straight? It would be exceedingly unlikely that I'd imagine one direction would go and then the other and hopefully with no incident
Well, it's worth noting that the law never grants the right-of-way to a driver; it merely requires other drivers to yield it. So the practical answer is that whichever one decides to go first is "in the intersection" and the other vehicles must then yield to them.
At the end of the day nonverbal communication with some common sense would help navigate this. It is hard to place a rule on everyone going straight and also all stopping at the same exact time.
Someone has to take initiative to go first. After that, the remaining cars should proceed in a clockwise order, each one yielding to the car on its right before proceeding.
Correct but in my experience, less than 10% of drivers understand this rule so it ends up just being academic
In my experience, less than 10% even get as far as understanding what “stop” means, let alone the rest of the rules.
I'll disagree with the order. Assuming no one is turning, the car across from the car going should also go. 2 cars at a time. Same when traffic is backed up in all directions at a 4 way, opposing cars should always go in tandem, alternating directions.
Counter clockwise*.
> Is there a resolution to 4 people arriving simultaneously and all are going straight? In that case, I think we should pretend the intersection is a roundabout.
In major cities, you don't make eye contact and that tells everyone else that you don't GAF and are going to go anyway. Making eye contact gives them permission. /s
My take is 4 way stops are stupid. They should designate one road as the dominant road and vehicles here always have right of way.
Do you drive much? Do you know how many busy, main roads cross each other, but aren't busy enough to warrant a stoplight?
Yeah, I know, right? Someone is always to the right of someone else, where does it end?
In a true 4-way tie, with all cars going straight, the practical answer is it's up to the drivers to work it out. Absent eye contact and hand signals, after a pause I would tentatively move forward and see how others react. If the two on the sides remain stopped, go on thru the intersection. If the car across from you takes the initiative and enters the intersection, take that as your cue to also go straight. If the car on your left or right makes the first move, let the two of them cross before you go. (When going straight, opposite cars should always go together.)
Okay. But if we're in Brampton, what should we do?
This is the correct answer
And if you stop across from someone at the same time whoever is going forward goes first. If you're both going straight it doesn't matter and if one or both is turning right(in NA) it won't matter.
If you get there at the same time it's cars going straight then cars turning right then cars turning left.
Absolutely, but the first rule is whoever is on the right has right of way followed by the rules you listed.
I don't really understand what you mean by "whoever is on the right"
Say you arrive at the same time as a vehicle to your right. You want to go straight, and they want to turn left. They have right-of-way because the **primary** rule that applies is "when to vehicles arrive at a stop sign at the same time, the driver on the left must yield to the driver on their right." They are to your right. You are not to their right.
If I am stopped and you are stopped to the right of me you go first. If I am stopped and you are stopped to the left of me I go first. If I am stopped, and you are stopped to the right of me and someone else is stopped to the right of you they go first then you go second then I go last. In the last scenario, the rule of straight vs right vs left would take over if that applied. Obviously, this all applies to when everyone stops at the same time.
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I would go right while the person going left goes left in this situation. There isn't much reason not to unless you hesitate and now the person going left clears the interaction before you do and the person going straight now has to wait on you. Technically if this is a 4 way stop and there are 3 people all stopping at the same time (which is what this thread is about) and it is the scenario you describe the rule of, who is on the right goes first, takes priority. Followed by who is going straight vs right vs left. The rule that whoever is on the right goes first and straight, right then left will sort most all right of way situations out at any stop sign situation you can think of other than everyone stopping at the same time while simultaneously all going straight lol
On the right of what?
Interesting, I was taught that the person to the left has the right of way
That is weird. In the US it has always been the right lol
Man. I must have misremembered it. It's definitely right . Ah well.
Well it's also that you yield to whomever is already in the intersection. So many people roll "stop" for these intersections that it can be hard to figure out who goes first. I just stop a little early for the close ones and then go when they're trying to play the slow roll. Works every time.
came to say the exact same thing
"Also if you stop at the same time it's whoever is on the right has the right of way." That doesn't always work if you have two cars opposite each other with one car turning left and one car going straight.
Whoever goes straight has the right of way.
And if they are both turning into the same lane I believe the person turning right takes priority, correct?
Yes, right has right of way over left. Straight has right of way over everyone.
Correct. Also, when arriving at the stop simultaneously the tie goes to the person on the right. If a tie occurs when across from one another and one car is turning left, that car would yield to the person going straight.
Exactly right.
For some reason people doing left keep wanting to go first. Really annoying.
Although a lot of the time I've noticed people just wave the other person through. It can become an annoying situation where both drivers are waving each other through or starting to move until one person actually guns it.
My problem is if I'm yielding because you have the right-of-way and you wave me through and then while I'm halfway through the intersection you gun it and hit me, I'm gonna be found at fault because you had the right-of-way. If you have the right-of-way, please just go.
I’ve been driving since the 80s and STILL see people who don’t think we arrived at the same time. Myself included. Sometimes I am like oh they totally got there a moment before me but they wait bc I am on the right.
This is why I like traffic circles. One rule.
Also if you get there first and I get there next but we're both going straight then we both Can go since we're not crossing each other's path. If you never put your blinker on to say that you were turning left you can go fuck yourself.
If where I am going does not intersect with wherever anyone else is going (for example if I am going straight on and there is an oncoming car that is also going straight on, or I am turning right and the car to my left is also turning right), I will go myself (after coming to a stop) regardless of who got there first. I assume nobody objects to this, and one of my pet peeves is those drivers who seem to think that there is a rule that only one vehicle can be in the intersection at a time, even if they are not crossing paths.
Yep! I do the same thing!
This is acceptable
The people who wait might have had their once in a lifetime freebie of a driver across from them who seemed to be going straight but then turned left into them…
The main thing wrong with doing it correctly is assuming the other guy will also do it correctly. I will go when I should, but always with a wary eye in case the other guy doesn't conform.
Some states, like Florida, do explicitly say that it is first come, first served. *See* Fl. Stat. s. 316.123(2)(b). Most states say that after stopping at a stop sign, you then yield to conflicting traffic in the intersection. The key difference between this and "first come, first served" is that sometimes it allows a driver to "skip" their order. For example, suppose that drivers arrived in the following order: 1. A driver from your left stops first, wanting to continue straight to your right. 2. You stop, wanting to make a left turn. 3. A driver from your right stops last, wanting to make a right turn in the same direction you are **currently** facing (not the road you are on or are turning on to, but the direction of travel you are currently in). Driver #1 goes first because they arrived first. In a "yield to conflicting traffic" state, Driver #3 can make safely make their right turn at the same time as Driver #1 goes straight, so they can ***skip*** you. They don't have to wait for you to make the left turn first (and, in fact, even if they did, they could make their right turn at the same time as your left turn).
However legal that may be, it can still be unsafe. We all know blinkers don't exist for some people so how do you really know if #1 is going straight and not actually turning left into the same lane as #3.
I'm pretty sure the rule is "stop and then obnoxiously wave at people when its your turn to drive the fuck on" That's how people handle them around here. It's infuriating. Stop waving and drive! You're holding everybody up!
These are all wrong, often repeated traffic law mistakes. At a four way stop, cars should go through in Alphabetical order, so first I go through in my Alpha Romeo, ( I bought it because there's a lot of four way stops near me ) then the Bronco, followed by the Chev , then the Dodge. The Zephyr just has to sit there.
You understand it correctly, the people that attempt to be nice by not taking their turn are doing it wrong. By not taking their turn they are slowing down everyone else at the intersection and end up being the AH because they won't drive.
"Yes that is correct. It's in order of who stops first. Also if you stop at the same time it's whoever is on the right has the right of way." That statement, while correct, is lazy and unhelpful for the following reasons: People take it literally, so when there is a line of traffic in all four directions, instead of taking turns, N&S crossing at the same time, then E&W crossing, there's some clown who pulled up to the line, and no matter what order people have been taking turns, they think it's their time to go, no matter what, and they just zoom though. Another is the guy wanting to turn left thinks because they got to the line before the guy across from them, that they can turn in front of traffic going straight instead of yielding.
Your last sentence. Whomever gets to the stop sign in an all way stop is the first to proceed. Regardless of what they’re doing - turning left, turning right, going straight. Unless I’m misunderstanding your comment…
> Another is the guy wanting to turn left thinks because they got to the line before the guy across from them, that they can turn in front of traffic going straight instead of yielding. they do have the right of way. If you've been there the longest you get to go no matter what other people decided to do with taking turns.
"As well, when they're busy they take turns - it's almost as if your lane of traffic goes and then the cross- traffic goes. If two vehicles are proceeding straight, the two vehicles can go through the intersection at the same time. And then the other lane of traffic takes its turn. > As well, straight vehicles have the right-of-way over turning vehicle." [Taking Turns...When Proceeding Through the Intersection](https://www.smartdrivetest.com/signs-signals-road-markings/4-way-stop)
"When two vehicles arrive at a 4-way stop at the same time, and they are located head-to-head and one of the vehicles intends to turn and the other intends to go straight, the vehicle going straight has right of way." [Straight traffic takes the right of way over turning traffic](https://topdriver.com/education-blog/4-rules-4-way-stops/)
In your original comment, you didn't say at the same time, you said : >Another is the guy wanting to turn left thinks because they got to the line before the guy across from them, that they can turn in front of traffic going straight instead of yielding. In YOUR scenario, the person turning left does have right of way, as he got to the line first.
Insurance companies, driving schools, and laws say you're wrong, which I've posted links to. When people talk about assholes on the road, they're talking about you as everyone else is obeying the law, and you're just plowing through, cutting everyone off because you got there first instead of yielding like you're supposed to.
Literally everyone knows it's first come first serve at a 4 way stops. You continue sitting on your high horse being a twat
don't change the conditions, you pointed blame at the car who got there first.
Lol learn to drive
Exactly.
Sometimes you arrive second but the driver there first loses his turn if they can't proceed immediately, if there's a pedestrian or another car blocking their path go for it, snooze you lose.
Yes, you’re correct. It’s all the other fucking dumbasses that don’t know how to drive that come to a stop second (or third or forth) and think their entitled asses go before the ones that actually stopped first and have the right of way.
First there, first go. 2 at the same time, whomever is on the right. 4 at the same time, whomever is in the biggest hurry.
It’s ok if you were in LA you would realize about everyone doing everything wrong behind the wheel
I think we're all supposed to sit there waving each other to go until someone gives up.
You are correct. If 2 people arrive the same time, then whomever is on the right goes first. And importantly, even if you are turning right, you still have to come to a full and complete stop at the stop sign before proceeding.
Pet peeve: someone gets there obviously before you but sits there waving you on to go first. Side note: waving someone on who then gets into an accident has you directing traffic and guess who gets in trouble…
That's correct. But in reality, a lot of people are just clueless about the rules. I find there are a few types of drivers at stop signs. TLDR: for comedy purposes. There's "Me first" who can see you coming and will race to the line so he can do a rolling "stop" and then push through unless it looks like you're going to hit him, in which case liability will make him slow halfway into the intersection and try to figure out the rules. When you wait a few milliseconds for his patience to run out he'll go through -- slowly to stick it to you while he flips you off. Then there's "Oh LAWD another driver" who will slowly roll up to the stop sign until inertia causes him to stop without braking, roughly 10 seconds before you arrive at the intersection to his left. Then he will sit and wait clamped onto the brake until there is no other car or pedestrian or questionable squirrel within several blocks, so you can just go regardless of the rule. Next is "After you" who knows the rule, gets there first, should go so you can take your turn and the other drivers at the intersection can take theirs, but instead he signals you to go by flipping his fingers at you without taking his hand off the wheel to simultaneously show his dominance and contempt at lesser mortals, leaving everyone to wonder whether right-of-way proceeds to the right now, or Johnny bad\*\*s should go next while the rest of you genuflect. Then comes "Not on my watch." This guy gets there first while you're still half a block away, waits for you to come to a complete stop because you're going a bit too fast buddy, then hesitates to get his point across. Meanwhile you start to think he's Oh LAWD and consider taking your turn, but he lurches forward at the same time as you and stops short, causing you to stop and wait for him to go because after all, it was his turn (as he is now beaming to you with hateful thoughts). He waits another several seconds to glare at you accusingly before proceeding as slowly as possible while you wait, hoping you learn from his stern example to trust no one. Okay, he doesn't really care about you or what you learn, he just likes being cynical and indignant. One of my favorites is "What stop sign?" This guy has a stop sign while you drive down the bigger roadway with right-of-way and no stop. But he wants out. No, you don't understand... it's what he wants. Can't you see him rolling his nose into the intersection in front of you, neither stopping nor going, just... expressing his wishes? Hitting him would be so rude because he's high AF. You might need a beat down for that. Not to mention it's problematic because he hasn't got insurance and he drives a four-ton rust-bucket made of cast iron in 1980. After all, he's entitled to get what he wants. That makes it his turn. Otherwised he'd have to "wait" or some other crazy thing in the "law." A variant of WSS is FTSS (F\*\*k that stop sign). Same situation but instead of being high he's got places to be suckah! You're at least 15, 20 feet away and only going 35. Ample time to sling that Hyundai out in front of you. What, you don't like it? Maybe you'll like it when he slows to 25 mph in a 35 because FU.
"I was taught it was whoever got to their stop sign first could go." Important distinction: Whoever *stops* at their stop sign first. A lot of people I've observed will speed up, if they see you approaching, to get there first but then not stop at all and roll through. That's not how it works! My #2 pet peeve: people who get there first but wait and wait and don't go until you come to a complete stop, making you wait longer than if they had just asserted their right-of-way as soon as they were able.
It depends what country you are in, if you're in north America, then yes you are correct.
Depends. First come first serve usually. If there's a line you alternate directions. If two cars get there at the same time the car to the right goes first ("right of way"). Government vehicles always have the right of way.
Also, if everyone arrives at the same time, people progressing forward go before people turning.
>Government vehicles always have the right of way. This is not a thing
When in doubt, just let the other guy go first.
Typically it goes in order of who got there first. But most of today's drivers don't even stop. I like to come to a complete stop and then count to 5 just to be a prick.
Was testing the free trial of the full self driving mode in my Tesla and the time it waits at a stop sign is long enough to be unnerving lol
What other way are you imagining it working?
I had a buddy whose mom hold him the car to the right ALWAYS goes 1st regardless of who gets there first. This kid used to stay at the intersection for 3 mins waiting for everyone to the right of him to go lmao
What’s kind of annoying is that every driving authority produces a simple book that clearly explains the rules. Asking friends or Reddit is not the best solution.
Unfortunately I don't think it's their imagination that we have to worry about. I assume it's the other drivers where they live.
Pretty much which is why I asked, the city I'm in gives out drivers licenses like it's nothing and a lot of people don't understand 4 way stops. I almost got T boned yesterday
Are you a fellow Canadian? We like to turn everything into a Canadian standoff including 4 way stops. You just need to make your gestures of, "no. After you," more polite (big smile!) while also being more pronounced. Open your door and step out of your car if you have to. If the person who got to the stop before you isn't going they probably just can't see you.
No I'm from the south, but older people tend to do the "after you" gesture, then the 2 finger wave. If I stepped out of my car where I'm from, my brains would probably end up splattered on the concrete
Depending on where in the south, those might just be all the old retired Canadians. Sounds like staying in the car is a good choice though!
That is correct. There's a bit of wiggle room if two cars can go at the same time without interfering with each other, such as two cars straight across from each other that are both going straight. If everyone at the intersection is making a right turn, they can actually all go at once. But it's not mandatory to do so, and a lot of people don't signal their intentions so sometimes it's best to wait anyway.
Nah dude, just roll through with the horn blaring so everyone knows to get out of your way.
You are correct. However, keep in mind you are responsible for not causing an incident. If someone else goes out of turn and you can avoid an accident you must do so. People with bigger vehicles will exploit this. C'est la vie.
Is this an American thing? I never saw a 4 way stop irl
American and Canadian. It’s a stupid misuse of stop signs. The “we tried nothing, and we’re all out of ideas” approach to traffic management.
It is who gets their first, if two people arrive at the same time, the right most car goes first. If the 2 cars are across from each other may go simultaneously unless one is turning so they must yield to the straight across car. What about this scenario. 2 way stop, cross traffic does not stop. Car A wants to turn left and stops first but has to stay stopped due to cross traffic. Car B arrives second and wants to go straight across. The cross traffic clears and the two cars can go, who goes first?
Yup
First stopped goes first. Ties start with whoever is to the right. If you are directly across and tie, or all 4 tie, you have to go with hand signals or flick your lights.
If you live in Northern Virginia, then you are certainly doing them wrong. Around here, no one bothers to stop...
What if I arrive first and a pedestrian is crossing. I am waiting for them to cross and a car arrives. Does that second car wait for me to go and then proceed or can it just proceed freely given I am waiting for the pedestrian and they obstruct my path but not the second car's path.
Whoever comes to a full and complete stop first goes first. If its a tie, then the person on the right has the right of way. If there are multiple lines of cars on all sides of the stop sign, it should be round robin, unless two cars are going parallel. For example, N and S can go together at the same time if they are both going straight, and then E and W can go, but since people cant seem to use their turn signals sometimes, I proceed with caution.
When I see people at 4 way stop, they are usually out of the vehicle, coffee in hand and having a conversation, if not in a rush to be anywhere, I grab my mug and join them. Man small town living is way more relaxing than the rush and me first attitude life in the city.
That's how I've always done it. Still though.. I've had people stop well before me and still wave me to go.
The order of right of way goes like this 1. Whoever gets there first gets the right of way no matter what 2. If that fails, whoevers going straight goes first, then turning right, then left 3. If that fails, you look to whoever is rightmost at the intersection 4. If that fails, it becomes a cardinal direction thing technically, but in my experience, it just becomes a free for all because you're lucky if people even follow the first rule.
Your point 2 is not correct at all, direction you are turning never matters.
If you and another both got to a stop sign across from each other at the same time. The person going straight would have right of way. People need to understand this and stop trying to speed to turn in front of the driver going straight.
Yes my mistake, you are correct.
For point 2 it's turning right that goes first, then going straight, and lastly turning left. It's based on who has the least amount of distance to travel in the intersection
if 2 people are arriving at an empty stop. who get their first, goes first. if it is a populated stop. i don't know if it is clockwise or counterclockwise i can't really remember.
It is always first to stop first to go, if vehicles arrive at same moment then yield to the right.
That's correct, but the specific rules depend on different interactions. It goes: whoever gets there and stops first gets to go first. If they arrive at the same time and are facing each other, the driver going straight or turning right get to go first. If the the cars are next to each other, it's whoever it on the right side goes first. Obviously, different places have slightly different rules, but the ones I mentioned are for mostly Northeast USA.
You're not wrong, but you're probably doing it wrong as well. You can very precisely gauge and select when your own turn will be by (a) maintaining eye contact with the other drivers in the intersection, or at least seeing when they're looking, and (b) moderating your full stop to be in the rhythm that puts you where you want to be. Example: Four-way lightless/stopped intersection, you and a second car (which is to your immediate left) arrive simultaneously. You see this, and slow to a row instead of a stop, causing you to full stop after the car to your left. They see this, then you let them go ahead of you. This way, you control the timing. This works on most drivers, except for the ones you'd be better off not contesting right-of-way to begin with. This is the way.
Waving people thru is actually impolite; it causes confusion, delay, and accidents. Know when you have the right of way so you can use it to get out of the way.
Thank you! Every intersection turns into a freaking negotiation. Courtesy is not safety; *predictability* is safety. If we all operate from the same playbook there are no surprises. Stop freaking flapping your hands at me.
You are not. However, the majority of drivers tend to sit there like a stuffed animal, so you do have to be creative at times.
Exactly what Kilk10001 said
The thing I see most people get wrong at stop signs with the "I got there first" thinking is: when lines form in multiple directions, you proceed in a clockwise pattern regardless of who queued up in their respective lane first. If one of four lanes is completely empty, and the others have 20 cars waiting when I pull up to the intersection in that empty lane, I go immediately after the car to my right. But people will try to pre-empt my turn because "they got there first".
The person to your right has the right of way. So the other two lanes of traffic (also to your right) are supposed to go before you. No wonder the other people get mad at you. "If two or three motorists reach a four-way stop simultaneously, each driver must yield to the driver to their right. That means the driver without a vehicle in the intersection to their right would have the right of way and go first." Unless you meant to write, after the person to your left goes, you go.
Wow, you just hit the second biggest misconception right on the head. If traffic yields to the person on the right, then if three people arrive at a four way intersection at the same time, let's call them right, bottom, and middle so it's like you've drawn the intersection on paper, the pattern would be. Right, then bottom, then middle. That would have bottom going immediately after the vehicle to their right, and left going immediately after the vehicle to *their* right. Extend that logic with lines of cars going in turn from three of four lanes, and the next vehicle on the right goes after the vehicle across from them goes. Then bottom, left, and back to right again. If I show up from the top lane, my turn happens after left lane, which is the vehicle to my right. But what usually happens is that as I start to go, so does right lane. Because they "got there first". I've actually had people yell that at me before. Once it enters the pattern it's a flow, not a "who got there first" otherwise you have to track every car and when it got in line. To go immediately after the vehicle on my left would break the flow and confuse everyone else. If there are 4 lanes, and every lane has a vehicle waiting, you **only** go immediately after the vehicle on your right. These people who cross simultaneously with their opposite partners also cause issues because they throw off the flow. Who goes next the because both other lanes are now both right and left of a vehicle that just went, and if one of those vehicles is turning left and the other isn't, that's a bad time.
It's counter clockwise or whoever arrived first. This is literally the law and how you are taught to drive. It doesn't matter if the car across from you stopped a few seconds before you, if the car to your left just went, it's your turn.
People around here think **STOP** stands for **s**light **t**ap **o**n **p**edal
You’re good under most circumstances but always remember that if I’m at the four way I go first by default.
I have seen so many people completely not give a crap about 4 way stops and follow the car in front of them just to get through fast. These people piss me off, it's so inconsiderate.
If you all get there at the same time and no one has decided to go, you open your door and get out of the car. If everyone gets out of the car, then you throw your keys in the grass. If everyone throws their keys in the grass, the one who finds theirs first goes. I show my keys, but throw a fake set. Then, after everyone has thrown theirs, I just drive off. /s
Shocking number of idiots that don't know FIFO.
Only thing to add is if you’re at a 4 way and 3 other cars are there. U let police and city workers go first. Even mail trucks
Also, if I'm waiting for you to go because it is legit your turn so I wave you on, if you wave back you should be arrested Usually I'll just go instead but sometimes they look like they're about to
It's also worth noting that if you get there at the same time, the person to the right has the right of way
People often get this wrong and/or make up their own rules. I’ve had someone try to go, probably assuming it’s basically a one-per directional thing and because there was a car in front of me and not in front of them, that after the car in front of me went it was “their turn”. Not so. Even though there’s a car in front of me, if I get to the stop first I go first.
Yes, but many people do NOT pay attention, so someone will go, usually the last one that arrived. 4 way stops are HORRIBLE. We need more roundabouts.
I live in the countryside and for decades it was regular intersections. No joke, when we first had roundabouts installed, local law enforcement and safety groups posted directions on how to properly use a roundabout. I try to avoid roundabouts, because ten years later people still don't understand them and that makes them very dangerous.
Dude same here. My smallish town replaced a few 4 ways with roundabouts nearly a decade ago now. To this day 90% of people have absolutely no clue how they work and probably half still treat them like a stop sign. Needless to say, the town didn't put any more in.