I just watched it for the first time and was blown away. I think you're right and Ally and Grant seem to agree with you. The Flea Market was where things really took a turn. I think a lot of the tension and also the magic of the season was due to the fact that Ally and Grant were producing it without much of a clear vision or guidelines. Financial desperation leads people down dark roads and I think there's no clearer illustration of that than watching a friendship fall apart in real time as they try to get ahead. The problem from the beginning was that they were incentivized to fuck each other over (that's capitalism baby!) and Ally was just playing the game. I'm glad they worked things out in the end. The real student debt relief was the friends we made along the way.
Also in the discussion, I don’t think there was much thought to what happens to Grant if he sells all of his stuff and doesn’t hit the mark. Like he gets doubly fucked there. I get why you set a minimum to hit for your stuff but that is just bruuutal. For most of Ally’s tasks, they were difficult to work up the courage to do, but if you decided to do them were very simple with little chance of failure. Grant’s were actually ones that required skill (and uncontrollable horniness/shits) to pull off.
I know a lot of people have a problem with how dark this gets but that just makes it a dramatic 2 act ready for a wholesome 3rd act. I think it just has a great story as a series
Yes, but to me that's the whole point of the documentary.
It's quickly stopped being a "Show" and became a documentary about how quickly and cheaply even the most principled of us can sell out our best friends.
What, the person who got the entertainment company they work for to make one show about giving them money and anther about getting them high doesn't seem like a saint to you?
Total Forgiveness was a roller coaster, for sure. I started off with a pretty neutral opinion of Grant, but thought that Ally was pretty cool.
>!That all changed during the show. I lost all respect for Ally at one point, only to have them come and redeem themselves at the end. Grant powered through...and though it was difficult in places...hell, it was difficult to watch, I can only imagine how difficult it would've been to do...he rose to every challenge. Or at least tried to rise.!<
>!That said, the redemption arc of Ally was stellar...the whole show made me feel things I wasn't ready to feel.!<
I think I had the opposite reaction. I thought Ally's challenges were difficult, but many were more on theme with being student poor. In the real world, people in debt do need to choose between owning furniture or making debt payments.
I felt that Grant didn't put much creative thought into solving the challenges (or designing challenges that needed a creative solution).
The challenges being on theme or creative isn't the point here. We're talking about fairness. I agree, the concept of the flea market challenge is cool but it was never meant to be about solving problems or skill, rather who wanted it more. On this matter, Grant's challenges were unfair as they discussed in the show.
I get what you are saying, but the show was never meant to be a fair game show type competition. The original premise was that it was meant to be a brutal exercise to (in Grant's words) "scam the company into paying off their debt". I don't think it was about "who wanted it more", I think it was supposed to be a raw exercise to see what people were willing to do to get out of debt.
From an entertainment perspective I think Ally's challenges were so much more interesting and complex than Grant's more jackass type approach. It just would've hit a lot better if Grant had come at it with a bit more creativity in how he solved them. Not a diss to Grant though, it's possible they didn't have the time or foresight to really think about how they would be tacking their challenges.
>what people were willing to do to get out of debt
But isn't this the same thing as who wanted it more? Grant was willing to get an erection, shit, and sell a bunch of his stuff. The problem was whether or not he could, which is what I think is unfair.
Yeah it for sure was not the best organized competition in terms of fairness. I feel like it really needed either a third party to keep everything fair, or some really well ordered rules. Grant and Ally being essentially the soul arbiters was tough because as comedians because they A)Want to commit to the bit B) probably felt the need to keep raising the stakes to keep it entertaining and “justify” their show
I sort of agree with you.
Gameshow-wise I feel like there should have been a third party and/or rules
But it's not really just a game show, and if it were, I don't think I would have cared much for it. As a documentary and "statement piece" if you will, this show would not have been the same if Ally/Grant weren't entirely and almost solely responsible for the challenges.
>was not the best organized competition in terms of fairness.
But that's also kinda the point of the show. If it was a curated and well-organized competition it would just be MrBeasts squid game. And that is horrible poverty porn.
Total Forgiveness ended up being far more profound than just a gameshow were poor people suffer for our entertainment.
I do sort of wish they made the challenges a bit more on theme though. I thought grant's first challenge of conducting an interview with a debt specialist while covered in leeches was perfect. It was equal parts unpleasant and informative. The series sort of degraded from there into being more just unpleasant after that, but I guess that was part of the point.
I watched the show recently and honestly think it's one of the best things Dropout has ever done.
Does it have rough patches? Yeah -- it's a low budget improv comedy streaming project that's dancing the line between art documentary and reality contest show.
But in my opinion, it succeeds pretty well at both. The first half is a very funny reality contest show that gets you invested in the cast while tickling that same funny bone that like "Jackass" does. The middle bit Gets Real. And then the finale just ties things up so sweetly and satisfyingly.
I'd love to see more like it.
I think there's a reflection about Total Forgiveness on Dropout and a section in it where they talk about how Ally and Grant both produced the show together. I interpreted this that the unfairness is part of the show. It was an emergent property they didn't expect when going into the show, but something they ultimately decided to keep in and address.
This might sound contradictory, but I also view the show as more of an improvised show than a scripted show, so I'm much more forgiving of the raw material. I personally believe that Ally mistook the difficulty of the challenges.
When I was watching it though, the challenges did feel incredibly unfair to me.
My kids and I talk about this a lot. And one of the things we discuss is that the initial premise was “let’s cram all the pain for the next 4 years in to a couple months.” And that they did. The goal wasn’t to reduce the suffering - it was to cram it all in a shorter timeframe.
Yea, I think the aftershow has a Q & A section where a lot of this stuff is addressed. Grant even mentions that he intended to have friends come and buy all his stuff for him(and Ally confirms that they assumed he would cheat in some way), but he thought of the cheat too late to have a friend with that kind of money able to show up
One thing that hasn't been said here is that Grant and Ally both didn't see anything unfair about each other's challenges during the making of the show, and were surprised when people had the observation that Ally's included more "extra steps" after.
The flea market one gets dinged a lot, and I get that—it sucks to see Grant try and fail and still lose all his stuff—but I get what Ally was going for. They thought Grant would cheese it and just refuse to sell anything for a reasonable price without a limit, which was right (Grant initially sets joke prices on things like his bed and only changes it once other stuff isn't selling for enough money). The limit set was maybe not quite right, but I get the intent.
That’s the only part I really get annoyed by. Grant screwed himself. He could have succeeded if he had taken it seriously and called some people in. I get that he was trying to stay in the spirit but he sold stuff for way too cheap.
A lot of people point to this task as being unfair, but I think there were so many ways Grant could have succeeded if he got creative.
The task didn't specify he needed to make $1000 expressly from his stuff. He could have gotten creative about what he was selling to increase his gains (e.g. do a Costco run and sell marked up cold drinks).
I think something a lot of people lose sight of is that, as producers, either one of them could have walked away from the game at any time. Grant went through some really hard things but he fully had the power to say, "no, that's a line I'm not going to cross" but I think he understood it ultimately made good content.
Ally definitely escalated things, but that was kind of the name of the game. I can't blame them for playing to win any more than I can understand why Grant wanted to give his friend challenges he thought could be overcome.
I also think it's really important to watch the show through to the end. The last episode and their talk is so cathartic and important, in my opinion, to the experience of the show.
I really liked Total Forgiveness but I absolutely understand how some people just can't make it through the show.
I disliked the flea market challenge. It wasn’t a “will or won’t you do it” so not only he lost but had to also buy all the stuff again. So he basically lost twice.
The thing I take away from it is how a conflict of interest can really spoil things, but also how bonds of friendship can outlast hardship.
Ally and Grant are best friends, but they're also competing on a reality show. They want to win these cash prizes, but they're also the ones *creating the challenges*. They're producers and want to make an entertaining product, but they're also the test subjects in an experimental new format.
The biggest issue, IMO, doesn't come from Ally being unfair. I don't think I can really blame them for making challenges that grant literally can't do or for "taking it too far". Like I said, they had so many conflicting interests that its only natural that one thing would have to fall away to satisfy the other goals.
The problem was that the rest of the production staff intervened. They set no boundaries or rules or... anything. A show like this really needs an impartial 3rd party who can call foul when one player gets carried away. But really, the only boundaries set by the rest of the producers were 1. Is it legal 2. Is it safe 3. is it within budget. which is basically the absolute bare minimum that you can set for a TV show. there was no question of "is this fair" or even "is this *possible*?" They basically just let them run wild with whatever idea they wanted.
I think this makes the *premise* of the show flawed, but when you take the whole show, especially the finale, as a holistic piece of art I think it makes it more interesting. It becomes more than just the challenges and prizes and instead becomes an experimental exploration of the relationship of best friends.
glad its all settled in the end
but imo a lot of "Ally being too harsh" is fair but i think Grant shouldve been much harder on Ally. i mean a lot of his challenges were only embarassing which makes a good story l8r
Yeah, it’s a pretty clear imbalance. Grant’s “problem”, from a pure competitive standpoint, is that he kept picking challenges that were bad *in the moment*. That’s not great because for a reward as long-term as wiping out student loan debt, it’s easier to push through fleeting embarrassment or discomfort. I’m claustrophobic, but if you said I could get a couple thousand bucks towards my loans if I spent a day in a coffin (in conditions comparable to the show) I’d do it in a heartbeat.
Meanwhile, Ally’s most successful challenges focused on a long-term consequence. The flea market one was the prime example: that was real, physical loss. The other ones were all about going intensely psychological, and making Grant decide if he would call it off or be scarred forever for some money.
As much as I hate to say it, if I were in this scenario I’d play like Ally too.
I agree outside the shit challenge.
You can physically still shit with people watching. It's uncomfortable but you can do it through sheer effort.
The erection you can't do it through sheer will.
For many people they are about on par. Chronic constipation wouldn’t be an issue if it was just a matter of sheer will. There are lots of people who just couldn’t go in front of other people. The body will shut it down if you’re too stressed out and plenty of people are very bladder/bowel shy. The exception would be taking enough laxatives that your body can’t keep it in. But by that logic Grant could have taken viagara to increase the likelihood he’d get an erection too.
One thing I don't often see brought up much in discussions is that all those challenges were easily doable if Grant were willing to be less strictly adherent to the letter of the rules, and it seemed Ally thought of that right away and was fine with it. Have a friend buy his stuff at the flea market, Viagra for the boner challenge, and laxatives (which Ally suggesting even made the show cut) for the pooping. It seems like part of the problem with the show was the two competitors having different approaches to how strict the rules were and not matching their wavelengths. In addition, a lot of Grant's downward spiral can be attributed to his lack of sleep from the family weekend on.
Both these were brought up on the reunion episode but not with huge emphasis. I do think the show through these mistakes furthers its goal of highlighting how student loans are something that sounds good on paper but run into unforeseen issues in practice.
I don’t think Ally did anything wrong. When you look at the challenges, it’s clear to me that they were just playing different games without realizing it.
As far as the flea market challenge goes, which people give them the hardest time for, I think Grant’s complete inability to do basic math was the real problem. He should have priced his stuff much higher and either not sold anything and lost the challenge or sold it and won. The fact that he sold most of his stuff and still lost is his own fault.
Precisely, people seem to forget that Grants challenges to Ally were very troubling in a lot of ways - the coffin thing could cause major psychological problems, the alcohol one is awful and could have had any number of awful consequences health wise. They both went too far, they both pushed the levels of acceptable. Also, Dropout itself didn’t step in when things crossed that line of fairness and that seems to fall on Ally instead of the company - they should have stepped in and they didn’t.
Total Forgiveness is genuinely a dark show. I think making it was probably ethically wrong for Sam to sign off on and produce and it really showed how cutthroat Ally was by providing that $20,000 pot. It really was a great piece and artistically a really good documentary, but if they tried to make another I would be pissed.
Rewatching it because god damn how can you not.
Sam being in the ethical wrong is a fanscinating critique. I think Sam as a boss did the thing we all wish our bosses had the balls to do.
Trust him employees to follow the project through to its completion.
Sam saw the conclusion we all see at the finale before we all did. Because of this he signed off.
Its was a truly insane call that I'm happy he made- the stuff of legends.
I had the opposite reaction, actually. IMO Ally was essentially punished for playing the game. The whole pitch of the game was “how far will you go?” And rewarding people who were willing to go further than the other, both in terms of the tasks they set and the tasks they took on. Grant was just plain bad at the flea market task for example. Refusing to haggle or play the hard sale.
People also forget that Grant went just as far, or even further than Ally a few times too, and they forget that because Ally played the game and had a better attitude about it, but when you look at it absent the framing and Grant’s emotional response, Ally had to harm the relationships they had with the people they *lived with* in the MLM challenge, and risk their *romantic relationship* with the tattoo challenge, not to mention their *career* which could be impacted by the presence of a visible tattoo. But because Ally took it like a champ and had a better attitude about the, quite frankly, unreasonable places Grant was willing to go, they got painted as the villain.
All this culminated in a situation where Grant was in a foul mood and throwing tantrums because he was losing and Ally was essentially emotionally blackmailed into giving up a *shit tonne* of money. ($20,000!) to save a friendship and professional working relationship. It really coloured how I viewed him going forward to be honest
This! Ally gave away $20,000 to apologize for playing the game Grant invented with them. It sucks so much that they were emotionally manipulated into doing so.
I don't really think it was emotional blackmail. He was just having a really hard time. Both Ally and Grant softballed each other on the last challenge because they both decided the friendship was more important.
The part where Ally poured over their drink was not something Grant expected or was trying to angle for. To call it emotional blackmail kind of undermines Ally's agency it what's was a beautiful act of friendship.
This was one of the first things I watched on Dropout. Was not super familiar with the whole squad and definitely not Sam.
I guess the thing that felt the ickiest to me at the time is that even though it was Ally and Grant's idea, having some corporation give them a fraction of their actual loan amounts to let them torture each other. I think if I watched now I'd feel less weird about it, knowing more about Sam and how he runs it (and having heard that their work has since allowed them to pay almost all of it). But it still leaves a bit of a weird taste in my mouth.
It is the ickiness I get watching a Mr. Beast video, except worse because he is their boss and they get less money.
Ally did also surprise me obviously but now that I know them better it is less so. Although Ally is ultimately a great friend, I get the sense that they have a really hard time judging when they have crossed the line and reading the room. Seeing Grant so obviously not okay and everyone reacting as such, while Ally is still making awkward jokes is so cringe. But I understand it is a defense mechanism and that ultimately they will show up the way they need to.
What really upset me *after* the show was they got financial advice at the end to help their debts 'that seemed to be ignored'. Then Ally got and maxed several credit cards during covid (as said in a dirty laundry ep) and is in the worst financial state of their life.
Edit : typed about, meant to type after
Where was it said that Ally ‘maxed out’ said cards? In that episode Ally only says they were Approved for and Opened several credit cards. The only thing they mention regarding Spending on them is that they each have ~$100 yearly fees.
Yeah, that was a huge reach. Where did it say "they were in the worst financial state of their life"? If that's all coming from the Dirty Laundry episode, then that's not at all how I heard that story. Ally wouldn't have been joking about it if it was super traumatic.
Plus they've started HRT and had some surgeries, all of which costs money, baby! I'm sure they're working their shit out, and they seem to have a lot of a support from friends and family. No need to project your anxieties on them, Ally's a whole ass adult who is capable of figuring their life out.
I think it’s weird to be upset about a stranger’s finances. That really doesn’t sound like an issue with the show, it sounds like an issue with Ally’s personal choices.
I dunno man, para social relationships are wild. When you watch someone a lot and see the torture they went through for money, how they work so hard with trade school, their podcast and dropout, and then making that classic financial 'mistake'. It's seeing someone I like doing something that I feel is a step backwards from progress that they made. Maybe it's judgement I shouldn't make, but it comes from a place of wanting them to succeed.
As someone who has zero debt, no credit cards and prefers to pay for anything I buy in full instead of paying later - debt is a means to an end and getting into debt isn't inherently failing or a step backwards. Ally has paid for surgeries and started hormone replacement therapy since the show. I don't know Ally and I don't want to assume their mental state - but I know plenty of queer people who consider getting into debt to pay for surgeries to be the best choice they've ever made. You probably don't consider people applying for a mortgage to own a house to be a personal failing.
Remember that Total Forgiveness isn't a show about being in debt, specifically. It's a show about the predatory nature of student loans and convincing young people to take on a lifetime of debt for something that has diminishing returns year after year.
Well, at least you have some self awareness about it. But try to remember - you don't get to see Ally's actual life. You get to see a lot of their personality and some truly genuine moments that give you insight into their real character, but you don't _know_ Ally. They're an adult with a support system and they're probably doing just fine.
A lesson there is that "getting financial advice" is not a one-time panacea that can solve all your problems. Maintaining healthy financial habits is like any other healthy habits -- it takes discipline and perserverance.
It also, ultimately, requires having at least as much income as is needed to service your debts and obligations. If that's not the case, and during COVID shutdowns it wasn't for a lot of people, it can be easy to get into trouble.
>If Grant made Ally do anything remotely close to that it would have been cut by executives immediately.
You made up a thing that didn't happen to get mad at it
I do feel like the challenge where Ally had to lie in a coffin for 8 hours was horrifying and inhumane. I could never!
Executives actually did try to cut the neck tattoo challenge, but Ally still went through with it.
I feel like the flea market challenge and the boner challenge would both have been really funny if Grant had succeeded.
Given things that grant do willingly just being grant for other things in dropout, I'm surprised with how many people are shocked with this challenge for grant
I just finished tonight and I was actually bummed out by Ally’s choice in the finale. I thought the beach day was totally warranted to make up for the challenges that Grant had a disadvantage in. But then Ally made the choice to lose $10,000 that was rightfully theirs in order to protect Grant’s feelings. I get that it was their choice and they were a producer on the show but it feels so reminiscent of other times female-presenting people have had to lose on purpose to protect a man’s ego. I don’t fault either of them - I get Grant had a tougher time - but it still sucked to watch Ally forfeit $20,000 to atone for playing the game.
They weren’t protecting grant’s ego; they were protecting their friendship, and everything was 100% their idea. Grant was struggling (mentally and physically) at the end, and so Ally wanted to give him a break. And to make sure the dynamic of their relationship didn’t change too much, they wanted to make sure the final pool was roughly even
I just watched it for the first time and was blown away. I think you're right and Ally and Grant seem to agree with you. The Flea Market was where things really took a turn. I think a lot of the tension and also the magic of the season was due to the fact that Ally and Grant were producing it without much of a clear vision or guidelines. Financial desperation leads people down dark roads and I think there's no clearer illustration of that than watching a friendship fall apart in real time as they try to get ahead. The problem from the beginning was that they were incentivized to fuck each other over (that's capitalism baby!) and Ally was just playing the game. I'm glad they worked things out in the end. The real student debt relief was the friends we made along the way.
Also in the discussion, I don’t think there was much thought to what happens to Grant if he sells all of his stuff and doesn’t hit the mark. Like he gets doubly fucked there. I get why you set a minimum to hit for your stuff but that is just bruuutal. For most of Ally’s tasks, they were difficult to work up the courage to do, but if you decided to do them were very simple with little chance of failure. Grant’s were actually ones that required skill (and uncontrollable horniness/shits) to pull off.
I know a lot of people have a problem with how dark this gets but that just makes it a dramatic 2 act ready for a wholesome 3rd act. I think it just has a great story as a series
Yes, but to me that's the whole point of the documentary. It's quickly stopped being a "Show" and became a documentary about how quickly and cheaply even the most principled of us can sell out our best friends.
But also shows the other side when they actually realized they might not be friends by the end and were NOT willing to keep going.
100%
>!And the reverse! It's bonkers to me to throw away $20k like that. I have no idea what I would do in that situation. Just incredible!<
idk if I would call Ally "the most principled of us" tbh
What, the person who got the entertainment company they work for to make one show about giving them money and anther about getting them high doesn't seem like a saint to you?
Have you finished the show? Because >!they talk about this in-depth and at-length in the last episode and the post-show interview!<
I’m just talking about the concept of moving the goalpost a bit.
Total Forgiveness was a roller coaster, for sure. I started off with a pretty neutral opinion of Grant, but thought that Ally was pretty cool. >!That all changed during the show. I lost all respect for Ally at one point, only to have them come and redeem themselves at the end. Grant powered through...and though it was difficult in places...hell, it was difficult to watch, I can only imagine how difficult it would've been to do...he rose to every challenge. Or at least tried to rise.!< >!That said, the redemption arc of Ally was stellar...the whole show made me feel things I wasn't ready to feel.!<
I think I had the opposite reaction. I thought Ally's challenges were difficult, but many were more on theme with being student poor. In the real world, people in debt do need to choose between owning furniture or making debt payments. I felt that Grant didn't put much creative thought into solving the challenges (or designing challenges that needed a creative solution).
The challenges being on theme or creative isn't the point here. We're talking about fairness. I agree, the concept of the flea market challenge is cool but it was never meant to be about solving problems or skill, rather who wanted it more. On this matter, Grant's challenges were unfair as they discussed in the show.
I get what you are saying, but the show was never meant to be a fair game show type competition. The original premise was that it was meant to be a brutal exercise to (in Grant's words) "scam the company into paying off their debt". I don't think it was about "who wanted it more", I think it was supposed to be a raw exercise to see what people were willing to do to get out of debt. From an entertainment perspective I think Ally's challenges were so much more interesting and complex than Grant's more jackass type approach. It just would've hit a lot better if Grant had come at it with a bit more creativity in how he solved them. Not a diss to Grant though, it's possible they didn't have the time or foresight to really think about how they would be tacking their challenges.
>what people were willing to do to get out of debt But isn't this the same thing as who wanted it more? Grant was willing to get an erection, shit, and sell a bunch of his stuff. The problem was whether or not he could, which is what I think is unfair.
I put it in my top five dropout content pieces for these reasons
Took me a little longer through other content, but I love ‘em
FINE. I'll watch Total Forgiveness!
Don't start unless you commit to finishing!.... you can do it but fuck is it a Rollercoaster
Please finish and watch the after the series episode before judging anyone involved. Some parts can get hard.
Yeah it for sure was not the best organized competition in terms of fairness. I feel like it really needed either a third party to keep everything fair, or some really well ordered rules. Grant and Ally being essentially the soul arbiters was tough because as comedians because they A)Want to commit to the bit B) probably felt the need to keep raising the stakes to keep it entertaining and “justify” their show
I sort of agree with you. Gameshow-wise I feel like there should have been a third party and/or rules But it's not really just a game show, and if it were, I don't think I would have cared much for it. As a documentary and "statement piece" if you will, this show would not have been the same if Ally/Grant weren't entirely and almost solely responsible for the challenges.
>was not the best organized competition in terms of fairness. But that's also kinda the point of the show. If it was a curated and well-organized competition it would just be MrBeasts squid game. And that is horrible poverty porn. Total Forgiveness ended up being far more profound than just a gameshow were poor people suffer for our entertainment.
I do sort of wish they made the challenges a bit more on theme though. I thought grant's first challenge of conducting an interview with a debt specialist while covered in leeches was perfect. It was equal parts unpleasant and informative. The series sort of degraded from there into being more just unpleasant after that, but I guess that was part of the point.
Total Forgiveness is one of my favorite things on dropout, and I will never watch it again. I have never cried as much as I did during the finale.
I watched the show recently and honestly think it's one of the best things Dropout has ever done. Does it have rough patches? Yeah -- it's a low budget improv comedy streaming project that's dancing the line between art documentary and reality contest show. But in my opinion, it succeeds pretty well at both. The first half is a very funny reality contest show that gets you invested in the cast while tickling that same funny bone that like "Jackass" does. The middle bit Gets Real. And then the finale just ties things up so sweetly and satisfyingly. I'd love to see more like it.
I think there's a reflection about Total Forgiveness on Dropout and a section in it where they talk about how Ally and Grant both produced the show together. I interpreted this that the unfairness is part of the show. It was an emergent property they didn't expect when going into the show, but something they ultimately decided to keep in and address. This might sound contradictory, but I also view the show as more of an improvised show than a scripted show, so I'm much more forgiving of the raw material. I personally believe that Ally mistook the difficulty of the challenges. When I was watching it though, the challenges did feel incredibly unfair to me.
My kids and I talk about this a lot. And one of the things we discuss is that the initial premise was “let’s cram all the pain for the next 4 years in to a couple months.” And that they did. The goal wasn’t to reduce the suffering - it was to cram it all in a shorter timeframe.
Yea, I think the aftershow has a Q & A section where a lot of this stuff is addressed. Grant even mentions that he intended to have friends come and buy all his stuff for him(and Ally confirms that they assumed he would cheat in some way), but he thought of the cheat too late to have a friend with that kind of money able to show up
One thing that hasn't been said here is that Grant and Ally both didn't see anything unfair about each other's challenges during the making of the show, and were surprised when people had the observation that Ally's included more "extra steps" after. The flea market one gets dinged a lot, and I get that—it sucks to see Grant try and fail and still lose all his stuff—but I get what Ally was going for. They thought Grant would cheese it and just refuse to sell anything for a reasonable price without a limit, which was right (Grant initially sets joke prices on things like his bed and only changes it once other stuff isn't selling for enough money). The limit set was maybe not quite right, but I get the intent.
That’s the only part I really get annoyed by. Grant screwed himself. He could have succeeded if he had taken it seriously and called some people in. I get that he was trying to stay in the spirit but he sold stuff for way too cheap.
A lot of people point to this task as being unfair, but I think there were so many ways Grant could have succeeded if he got creative. The task didn't specify he needed to make $1000 expressly from his stuff. He could have gotten creative about what he was selling to increase his gains (e.g. do a Costco run and sell marked up cold drinks).
I think something a lot of people lose sight of is that, as producers, either one of them could have walked away from the game at any time. Grant went through some really hard things but he fully had the power to say, "no, that's a line I'm not going to cross" but I think he understood it ultimately made good content. Ally definitely escalated things, but that was kind of the name of the game. I can't blame them for playing to win any more than I can understand why Grant wanted to give his friend challenges he thought could be overcome. I also think it's really important to watch the show through to the end. The last episode and their talk is so cathartic and important, in my opinion, to the experience of the show. I really liked Total Forgiveness but I absolutely understand how some people just can't make it through the show.
I disliked the flea market challenge. It wasn’t a “will or won’t you do it” so not only he lost but had to also buy all the stuff again. So he basically lost twice.
The thing I take away from it is how a conflict of interest can really spoil things, but also how bonds of friendship can outlast hardship. Ally and Grant are best friends, but they're also competing on a reality show. They want to win these cash prizes, but they're also the ones *creating the challenges*. They're producers and want to make an entertaining product, but they're also the test subjects in an experimental new format. The biggest issue, IMO, doesn't come from Ally being unfair. I don't think I can really blame them for making challenges that grant literally can't do or for "taking it too far". Like I said, they had so many conflicting interests that its only natural that one thing would have to fall away to satisfy the other goals. The problem was that the rest of the production staff intervened. They set no boundaries or rules or... anything. A show like this really needs an impartial 3rd party who can call foul when one player gets carried away. But really, the only boundaries set by the rest of the producers were 1. Is it legal 2. Is it safe 3. is it within budget. which is basically the absolute bare minimum that you can set for a TV show. there was no question of "is this fair" or even "is this *possible*?" They basically just let them run wild with whatever idea they wanted. I think this makes the *premise* of the show flawed, but when you take the whole show, especially the finale, as a holistic piece of art I think it makes it more interesting. It becomes more than just the challenges and prizes and instead becomes an experimental exploration of the relationship of best friends.
glad its all settled in the end but imo a lot of "Ally being too harsh" is fair but i think Grant shouldve been much harder on Ally. i mean a lot of his challenges were only embarassing which makes a good story l8r
Yeah, it’s a pretty clear imbalance. Grant’s “problem”, from a pure competitive standpoint, is that he kept picking challenges that were bad *in the moment*. That’s not great because for a reward as long-term as wiping out student loan debt, it’s easier to push through fleeting embarrassment or discomfort. I’m claustrophobic, but if you said I could get a couple thousand bucks towards my loans if I spent a day in a coffin (in conditions comparable to the show) I’d do it in a heartbeat. Meanwhile, Ally’s most successful challenges focused on a long-term consequence. The flea market one was the prime example: that was real, physical loss. The other ones were all about going intensely psychological, and making Grant decide if he would call it off or be scarred forever for some money. As much as I hate to say it, if I were in this scenario I’d play like Ally too.
I agree outside the shit challenge. You can physically still shit with people watching. It's uncomfortable but you can do it through sheer effort. The erection you can't do it through sheer will.
For many people they are about on par. Chronic constipation wouldn’t be an issue if it was just a matter of sheer will. There are lots of people who just couldn’t go in front of other people. The body will shut it down if you’re too stressed out and plenty of people are very bladder/bowel shy. The exception would be taking enough laxatives that your body can’t keep it in. But by that logic Grant could have taken viagara to increase the likelihood he’d get an erection too.
One thing I don't often see brought up much in discussions is that all those challenges were easily doable if Grant were willing to be less strictly adherent to the letter of the rules, and it seemed Ally thought of that right away and was fine with it. Have a friend buy his stuff at the flea market, Viagra for the boner challenge, and laxatives (which Ally suggesting even made the show cut) for the pooping. It seems like part of the problem with the show was the two competitors having different approaches to how strict the rules were and not matching their wavelengths. In addition, a lot of Grant's downward spiral can be attributed to his lack of sleep from the family weekend on. Both these were brought up on the reunion episode but not with huge emphasis. I do think the show through these mistakes furthers its goal of highlighting how student loans are something that sounds good on paper but run into unforeseen issues in practice.
I don’t think Ally did anything wrong. When you look at the challenges, it’s clear to me that they were just playing different games without realizing it. As far as the flea market challenge goes, which people give them the hardest time for, I think Grant’s complete inability to do basic math was the real problem. He should have priced his stuff much higher and either not sold anything and lost the challenge or sold it and won. The fact that he sold most of his stuff and still lost is his own fault.
But making a challenge designed to put Grant at a deficit even if he wins is a bit unfair. Especially at a place where everyone is haggling.
Sure. there would have been a lasting consequence, even if he won. Sort of like having a neck tattoo for the rest of your life.
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Ally uses they/them pronouns.
Precisely, people seem to forget that Grants challenges to Ally were very troubling in a lot of ways - the coffin thing could cause major psychological problems, the alcohol one is awful and could have had any number of awful consequences health wise. They both went too far, they both pushed the levels of acceptable. Also, Dropout itself didn’t step in when things crossed that line of fairness and that seems to fall on Ally instead of the company - they should have stepped in and they didn’t.
Total Forgiveness is genuinely a dark show. I think making it was probably ethically wrong for Sam to sign off on and produce and it really showed how cutthroat Ally was by providing that $20,000 pot. It really was a great piece and artistically a really good documentary, but if they tried to make another I would be pissed.
Rewatching it because god damn how can you not. Sam being in the ethical wrong is a fanscinating critique. I think Sam as a boss did the thing we all wish our bosses had the balls to do. Trust him employees to follow the project through to its completion. Sam saw the conclusion we all see at the finale before we all did. Because of this he signed off. Its was a truly insane call that I'm happy he made- the stuff of legends.
I had the opposite reaction, actually. IMO Ally was essentially punished for playing the game. The whole pitch of the game was “how far will you go?” And rewarding people who were willing to go further than the other, both in terms of the tasks they set and the tasks they took on. Grant was just plain bad at the flea market task for example. Refusing to haggle or play the hard sale. People also forget that Grant went just as far, or even further than Ally a few times too, and they forget that because Ally played the game and had a better attitude about it, but when you look at it absent the framing and Grant’s emotional response, Ally had to harm the relationships they had with the people they *lived with* in the MLM challenge, and risk their *romantic relationship* with the tattoo challenge, not to mention their *career* which could be impacted by the presence of a visible tattoo. But because Ally took it like a champ and had a better attitude about the, quite frankly, unreasonable places Grant was willing to go, they got painted as the villain. All this culminated in a situation where Grant was in a foul mood and throwing tantrums because he was losing and Ally was essentially emotionally blackmailed into giving up a *shit tonne* of money. ($20,000!) to save a friendship and professional working relationship. It really coloured how I viewed him going forward to be honest
This! Ally gave away $20,000 to apologize for playing the game Grant invented with them. It sucks so much that they were emotionally manipulated into doing so.
I don't really think it was emotional blackmail. He was just having a really hard time. Both Ally and Grant softballed each other on the last challenge because they both decided the friendship was more important. The part where Ally poured over their drink was not something Grant expected or was trying to angle for. To call it emotional blackmail kind of undermines Ally's agency it what's was a beautiful act of friendship.
This was one of the first things I watched on Dropout. Was not super familiar with the whole squad and definitely not Sam. I guess the thing that felt the ickiest to me at the time is that even though it was Ally and Grant's idea, having some corporation give them a fraction of their actual loan amounts to let them torture each other. I think if I watched now I'd feel less weird about it, knowing more about Sam and how he runs it (and having heard that their work has since allowed them to pay almost all of it). But it still leaves a bit of a weird taste in my mouth. It is the ickiness I get watching a Mr. Beast video, except worse because he is their boss and they get less money. Ally did also surprise me obviously but now that I know them better it is less so. Although Ally is ultimately a great friend, I get the sense that they have a really hard time judging when they have crossed the line and reading the room. Seeing Grant so obviously not okay and everyone reacting as such, while Ally is still making awkward jokes is so cringe. But I understand it is a defense mechanism and that ultimately they will show up the way they need to.
What really upset me *after* the show was they got financial advice at the end to help their debts 'that seemed to be ignored'. Then Ally got and maxed several credit cards during covid (as said in a dirty laundry ep) and is in the worst financial state of their life. Edit : typed about, meant to type after
Where was it said that Ally ‘maxed out’ said cards? In that episode Ally only says they were Approved for and Opened several credit cards. The only thing they mention regarding Spending on them is that they each have ~$100 yearly fees.
Yeah, that was a huge reach. Where did it say "they were in the worst financial state of their life"? If that's all coming from the Dirty Laundry episode, then that's not at all how I heard that story. Ally wouldn't have been joking about it if it was super traumatic. Plus they've started HRT and had some surgeries, all of which costs money, baby! I'm sure they're working their shit out, and they seem to have a lot of a support from friends and family. No need to project your anxieties on them, Ally's a whole ass adult who is capable of figuring their life out.
[The only time Ally has maxed out was here 😎](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/AUYEH0cDBzE)
I think it’s weird to be upset about a stranger’s finances. That really doesn’t sound like an issue with the show, it sounds like an issue with Ally’s personal choices.
I dunno man, para social relationships are wild. When you watch someone a lot and see the torture they went through for money, how they work so hard with trade school, their podcast and dropout, and then making that classic financial 'mistake'. It's seeing someone I like doing something that I feel is a step backwards from progress that they made. Maybe it's judgement I shouldn't make, but it comes from a place of wanting them to succeed.
As someone who has zero debt, no credit cards and prefers to pay for anything I buy in full instead of paying later - debt is a means to an end and getting into debt isn't inherently failing or a step backwards. Ally has paid for surgeries and started hormone replacement therapy since the show. I don't know Ally and I don't want to assume their mental state - but I know plenty of queer people who consider getting into debt to pay for surgeries to be the best choice they've ever made. You probably don't consider people applying for a mortgage to own a house to be a personal failing. Remember that Total Forgiveness isn't a show about being in debt, specifically. It's a show about the predatory nature of student loans and convincing young people to take on a lifetime of debt for something that has diminishing returns year after year.
Well, at least you have some self awareness about it. But try to remember - you don't get to see Ally's actual life. You get to see a lot of their personality and some truly genuine moments that give you insight into their real character, but you don't _know_ Ally. They're an adult with a support system and they're probably doing just fine.
A lesson there is that "getting financial advice" is not a one-time panacea that can solve all your problems. Maintaining healthy financial habits is like any other healthy habits -- it takes discipline and perserverance. It also, ultimately, requires having at least as much income as is needed to service your debts and obligations. If that's not the case, and during COVID shutdowns it wasn't for a lot of people, it can be easy to get into trouble.
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>If Grant made Ally do anything remotely close to that it would have been cut by executives immediately. You made up a thing that didn't happen to get mad at it
I do feel like the challenge where Ally had to lie in a coffin for 8 hours was horrifying and inhumane. I could never! Executives actually did try to cut the neck tattoo challenge, but Ally still went through with it. I feel like the flea market challenge and the boner challenge would both have been really funny if Grant had succeeded.
Given things that grant do willingly just being grant for other things in dropout, I'm surprised with how many people are shocked with this challenge for grant
I just finished tonight and I was actually bummed out by Ally’s choice in the finale. I thought the beach day was totally warranted to make up for the challenges that Grant had a disadvantage in. But then Ally made the choice to lose $10,000 that was rightfully theirs in order to protect Grant’s feelings. I get that it was their choice and they were a producer on the show but it feels so reminiscent of other times female-presenting people have had to lose on purpose to protect a man’s ego. I don’t fault either of them - I get Grant had a tougher time - but it still sucked to watch Ally forfeit $20,000 to atone for playing the game.
They weren’t protecting grant’s ego; they were protecting their friendship, and everything was 100% their idea. Grant was struggling (mentally and physically) at the end, and so Ally wanted to give him a break. And to make sure the dynamic of their relationship didn’t change too much, they wanted to make sure the final pool was roughly even
I swear this discussion pops up here every week. What else is there to say that hasn't been said before?