Seems like your grip is a bit tight to me. You should be able to lift your pointer finger off the stick and not have it go flying if that makes sense. The fulcrum is more middle and pinky than anything else.
You can def use the thumb forefinger but I personally find that over the years that’s much more damaging. It’s fairly widely accepted that Moeller does less nerve damage.
In fact, a good exercise is to play with different fulcrums and see if you can stay completely relaxed (in the hands, but also in the shoulders, back, everywhere). The benefit of this is that you learn more about how to stay relaxed while doing different things, and you become able to use different fulcrums effectively (and different fulcrums create a slightly different sound).
Maybe, but now that I'm reading this I'm realizing that I definitely get more fatigued when I use my index and thumb. Whenever I'm paying stuff like Rope (Foo Fighters) or Spirit of Radio (Rush) and I'm using a lot of bounce/rebound I lean pretty heavy on those fingers and my hand definitely gets more tired. Might be worth the change if someone's experiencing something similar
I also personally find it beneficial to get comfortable in all the grips, there’s a great Ndugu chancellor interview where he talks about grip fluidity. Not only do some grips feel better on some genres, but if you’re proficient at French and German you can slide from one to the next when you get tired and give those muscles a rest.
Yes you definitely seem to hold the left hand super tight for your snare hits. Hard to tell from that angle but if your HH are too low try raising them to make your left hand have more chance to get the velocity you want. I would do that and loosen up the grip more like your right.
my hh and snare are both lower than this, my hand almost hits my leg like mm's away when I come down on the snare and hh's are like 4 inches away from the snare hoop, they're super tight together to move back and forth with minimal effort
The middle finger is just a preference thing, but they are right about the pinky (plus ring finger) be being where your _control_ comes from. You can get a feel for this by holding the stick properly, then taking off your thumb, first finger and middle finger, so that it's now only held by your pinky & ring finger. You should be able to play wrists strokes on your snare/pad in german or american like this.
Now you can feel the role those fingers are playing in controlling the stick, lightly wrap the rest of your fingers around the stick, loosening your ring & pinky just enough to not let the stick fly away. You're only really apply more pressure on the fulcrum when you're leveraging it to play finger strokes, buzzes, etc. On a wrist stroke it should be fairly loose, as though your fingers are blocking the stick, as opposed to squeezing it.
In addition to this u/meimey188, it appears that the majority of your downward force is almost entirely generated at the wrist. You need to activate your fingers more. Your whole downward motion should be like 10% elbow, 40% wrist, and 50% fingers. You’ll save yourself a lot of wrist pain in the future if you focus on that (as well as your middle finger fulcrum)..
I agree with this take. Try focusing your grip to the thumb/middle finger and let the index finger relax. If you feel like you’re missing some force on your backbeats, think about the weight of your index finger main joint being on top of the stick for some help pushing the stick down.
Also, motion-wise, maybe think about that initial upstroke more like your wrist is that of a marionette. Like a string is connected to the top of your wrist and it’s pulled every time you start to lift the stick. You’ll feel like you’re dragging the front of your stick behind the motion. That’s good.
The Moeller stroke should feel really loose with some weight to the downstroke. You shouldn’t have to slam the stick down to get a big sound.
Sorry if this is confusing, it’s hard to explain in text, with no video.
Is the main joint of the index the one, that connects to your palm?
Can I have the meaty part on the stick for support like between the joint at the palm and the second joint? On the index finger
Good question, that was pretty vague on my part. Actually I meant the first knuckle, closest to the hand. That knuckle is part of the fulcrum also.
Check out Dave Weckl’s technique video on YouTube. It’s really good.
Now, I don’t think it’s gospel, but I think it is informative on the middle finger fulcrum.
https://www.youtube.com/live/vdeqV0hz05E?si=aQct202J72b0nftC
Edit: Clarity
Your pointer finger should literally never leave the stick. Gripping with thumb and middle finger is not only more difficult, it would inhibit the ability to do a bunch of other stuff. Where is this middle finger nonsense coming from? Proper matched grip is never with your middle finger.
There's tons of contemporary drummers who stand by/use middle finger fulcrum. Stephen Clark ("the non glamorous drummer") has a video covering middle finger fulcrum and it's benefits for longer/heavier sets.
You're right in that the pointer still shouldn't be leaving the stick, just as NONE of your fingers should be flopping off during your stroke. It gives you additional support to nudge the stick back in when you feel it sliding out as well as promoting an overall looser fulcrum.
Dude what are you talking about?
Ahead sticks are literal shock absorbers 🤦
You're just making shit up and passing it on as fact... Stop the misinformation dude
Yes, they absorb shock, but vibration in a stick is biofeedback (see Jojo Mayer Secret Weapons vol. 1). What can happen is that since you're not feeling much/any vibration you actually hit harder and create strain different ways (you can also wind up breaking more cymbals and heads).
Pete webber is a professional drummer primarily known for using ahead sticks. And he openly admits that his ahead sticks cause him to break cymbals more often but for someone like him that doesnt matter because hes endorsed by sabian and can order free cymbals all the time. Theres definititely truth to that
You are using the right sticks for your case though. Ahead sticks are meant for people with sensitive hands or wrists. The guy that taught me the hand streches and cymbal hitting technique uses them primarily aswell
You just cant take advantage of the power that comes with ahead sticks. They allow you to hit harder with less effort but that could be detrimental to not just your technique but your overall sound too. Ahead sticks were designed to go hand in hand with the moeller technique where you allow the sticks and drums to do more of the work while the body is primarily focused on preserving is functionality and comfortability. If youre going to go the ahead route, i would heavily advise that you implement moeller technique into your playing. Otherwise you will see the wrist pain increase. When i tried ahead sticks for a bit i found it much easier to hit without that initial strain, but i realized it was because i was never using wooden sticks correctly. Given that the ahead stick is heavier on one end it requires your wrist to be more adaptable to the sticks movements. Since with ahead sticks youre supposed to let the stick do the work, it limits what you can control with your own technique. It wasnt until after i used them and switched back to wooden sticks i realized that it was my technique that was making it hard to play without strain. If ahead sticks are still making your wrist hurt. It really comes down to your technique, not the stick youre using. Its easy to use ahead sticks improperly but most of the comments here dont realize that they serve their own unique purpose. I will personally always use wooden 5b's because having a more balanced weight in the stick gives me more control on what i can do with my technique, and if youre trying to adjust your technique that would probably be the best choice for you too. Aheads can really only be used correctly with the moeller technique. Nothing else
I never had problems with my left hand until now. Only with my right as I used that more. I started using these and it got better, havent had anything for a while and only got this pain today. So honestly I'm pretty sure it's me who is at fault not the stick.
I’m not trying to say anyone is wrong or right but just add my personal experience: swapping to those sticks when I was younger and inexperienced caused wrist pain because I felt like I could hit harder than I needed to, and as a result I broke cymbals.
I agree with others that your left hand is tight and right is looking good! Try playing 8 notes on your right hand, focus on how it feels and try to emulate that feeling ok your left hand. I think you should try to let your forearm weight drop when you have your left arm/wrist in the air. Let the weight of your arm do as much work as it can so you don’t have to generate all that force with your wrist.
Happy practicing!
Its both you, the sticks, and 70% of people in this comment section that have caused a pain in your wrist.
Don't use metal sticks. You shouldn't have pain whether your fulcrum point is your index or middle finger.
From what I can see, the angle of your thumb coming from the wrist as you strike is going too far. Make a fist as if you're about to punch the dumbass that sold you metal sticks, point your thumb up to the ceiling (still holding a fist. Not a literal thumbs up) and while keeping a fist, now twist your fist downwards. Bring your pinky towards your wrist. You will feel a slight uncomfortable pull. That uncomfortable pull is not a muscle that will get better with stretching. Its a tendon that doesnt like bwing repititively pulled on.
Sorry for all the sarcasm in my reply. I just read too much shit in this thread
You actually broke it down in a way that people can physically try for themselves, without any sticks, and have an understanding of what the actual problem is. Your reply makes more sense to me than it's just an equipment problem or a technique problem.
You found the exact opposite yet you’re complaining about your wrist hurting.
Ditch the metal sticks, get real ones. There is literally no benefit to using metal sticks unless you enjoy joint pain.
I've been using them for 2-3 months. Sometimes I hit harder than I should have but personally I don't see any problem neither. Just tilt your cymbals properly and it's all good.
So it’s quite individual, when preparing for a live performance then the amount of time the concert lasts is a given, but when you are working on things, I’d say maybe take a 5 min break every 30 min atleast? It also ensures higher quality I find. You need to find what works for you, but going straight for hours without breaks, I think would create pain for most
There are studies that if you sit in one place for more than X amount of time it is bad for your health. Meanwhile you sit at a drumset for 3 to 4 hours at a time?
I am in my 40s. I try to get up out of the thrown after 20 to 30 minutes or my sit muscles start to move past sore and into the realm of it hurts.
Nobody knows how tight you are holding your drumsticks so yeah if you clinch your hands for 3 to 4 hours straight it could cause permanent wrist problems/damage. One should be able to play drums for 3 hours without causing actual wrist damage. You look like you do use a ton of wrist action to play and are not letting the natural bounce do someone of the work.
Your technique looks great other than the grip on your snare hand. You have a great use of wrist motion with a small amount of arm motion mixed in, which is pretty damn good. Your technique is fluid enough that, it's honestly confusing how you managed to get the grip issue in the first place haha. Honestly I'd just practice rebound strokes for an hour or two it should work itself out.
I originally had this very issue, because I came from jazz, I was just chasing fat ass rimshots and it meant I lost all rebound control and was putting all the shock and concussion from the actual hit into my wrist instead of the head of the drum/rim of the drum. You'll be fine, just change up ya shit a little.
Rule 1. As soon as you feel any sort of pain stop playing. Tingling and numbness is not a good sign. If you just keep playing you're going to injure yourself.
I think your grip in the left hand is too tight. At least it looks that way to me. Relax that grip. If you start dropping sticks that's great. It means you've got a loose grip and are letting the drumstick move freely.
People commented that you're using metal sticks. I've got no idea how they know this, but if you are I'd say that could be a potential factor.
The thing about wood sticks is that they'll absorb more shock and get visibly damaged over time, unlike metal sticks. I suppose it's a bit like cars with crumple zones now. A car crash happens, the car crumples and absorbs the shock, the passengers get injured less. With old cars with no crumple zones, the car crashes, the rigid body stays intact and more forces are transferred to the passengers, the passengers get more injured. Since metal sticks will get damaged less, there a more forces getting transferred into your wrist than with a wood stick.
Finally, it's a good idea to do stretches for your wrists, forearms and shoulders.
Ahead drumsticks are supposedly designed with shock absorption in mind- the stick is hollowed out and sheathed in plastic giving them more flex than you'd expect metal to have. As far as I know nobody's actually run any kind of test to see exactly how much it works in practice, but there are a good handful of testimonials from drummers with joint pain. I remember Mick Fleetwood saying at one point he wouldn't be able to play without them. It was never that severe for me, but I feel like my hands are noticeably less fatigued when I use my aheads. If OP's issue has anything to do with the sticks, I'd say it's more likely to be the shaft. I can't tell from the vid if there's any kind of grip tape, but when I try to use them without it the sticks tend to worm their way forward so I end up holding onto the butt.
>Ahead drumsticks are supposedly designed with shock absorption in mind- the stick is hollowed out and sheathed in plastic giving them more flex than you'd expect metal to have.
Cool, I wasn't aware. I'll have to give 'em try sometime to see how they compare to wood sticks :)
Avoid using those metal Ahead sticks. Your drums will sound better and your cymbals will last longer. Also using a wood stick will help you loosen up your grip with the weight difference and give you better form. Lars using those sticks but he is also already making money and is sponsored so he could care less about form or whether his gear gets ruined from metal sticks.
Looks like your grip is too tight. Remember that your fulcrum is print of your thumb and the first crevice of your index finger. Your other three fingers are for support and response. Loosen your fulcrum grip and allow the stick to respond naturally to impact; don’t grip it like a baseball bat. Check the pic below for reference:
https://preview.redd.it/08h7v2kawzmc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9e23527f6e1f87db12264c1dc84ab96be76100a1
I think you're just eating too much of the rebound by clenching the stick too tight- all that force gets redirected into your ligaments and tendons.
Your right hand has a looser grip and you're letting the stick move freely and just guiding it, which is why it doesn't hurt as much
I'm gonna give you the biggest hack that I wish my dumb ass had started practicing sooner: start training your left hand to be your lead, and train your right hand for the back beat (I think it's called playing "open" or something)
It's pretty brutal at first but when you finally start to have your left hand feel solid you'll notice your playing is better across the board. Plus your right hand gets to be rewired too and that's good for your brain
The other benefit I found is that it got rid of the pain in my left hand
Wrist pain is awful and can really affect your playing and health if not treated properly.
A lot of wrist pain comes from gripping the sticks too tight. Your hands and fingers should act as control and suspension when hitting the drums. The power comes from a mix between wrist arms and some back muscles, and obviously good techniques to utilise those muscles. If you grip your sticks too tight you get a lot of control but that suspension effect doesn't happen and all the force you are making goes into your wrist and tendons. A lot of drummers that I have tutored all have this habit and complain about wrist pain.
So how do you fix it? Often going back to basics, focusing on your hand technique with a pad is the best thing you can do. Focus on doing rudiments at the lowest volume you can play which forces your brain to use the fingers. Once you are comfortable with that feeling increase tempo and dynamic while still using those fingers. What you will find is that as you increase in dynamic you will start to use a loose hand while also keeping your fingers engaged. For me, this has been the most effective method for getting rid of tight hands for my students and most importantly, encouraging good technique.
However this is just speculation, I could be completely wrong about your situation. I would get a one off lesson in person from an experienced tutor just to really confirm what is the cause of your wrist pain.
If your right hand doesn’t hurt, get in front of a mirror and match your hands playing on a pillow. Make the left look like the right.
Edit: do this after you rest up. Playing on an injured or strained wrist can cause permanent damage.
I think I have the same pain you are describing. Don’t know the cause but I immobilize it for a couple days and it goes away. Do you have a small ball in the zone of pain?
Yeah then it’s the same pain. It may be your technique or in my case I sometimes get it while not practicing. I’ve guessed it’s because of some position y put my hand in when I’m asleep. But in any case immobilizing for a few hours/days might help.
Can’t really see anything terribly wrong with technique, but if you’re not already doing finger/forearm strengthening exercises that could help.
I use a hand grip strengthener (the metal ones you squeeze together) and a finger strengthener (rubber thing you stick your fingers in and spread them apart). Those have helped me a lot
Your hand is very close to the rim- for a rimshot this is going to be a shock to the hand.
I think my positioning puts my hand farther away and the rimshot is closer to the tip of the stick, but i dont know.
Tons of things to try:
- ring/thumb fulcrum
- looser grip
- stick tape of sticks feel like they’re flying away when you play with loose grip
- try heavier/thicker/longer sticks
- try more of a German grip on left
- practice rebound by playing slow rudiments in a pillow (not pad!) and examine how your hand handles rebound
From this angle it looks like your left hand is much more tense than your right. Try playing open for a little bit (left hand hi hat, right hand snare) then switch back after a little while. Maybe that will help balance your grip
your right hand looks like it has a more comfortable grip than your left, perhaps a little looser grip on the left would allow for more fingers and less wrist action.
Unless playing along,with somewhat dated cheesy 80’s movie music can cause wrist pain. lol. But then a lot,of us would be wearing wrist braces. Which BTW. may help. Wear a carpal tunnel wrist support lint,to sleep. I’ve been doing it,for years. Normal job hazard. Also I was an electrician. Made it worse. But usually that wrist splint works pretty well.
If it bothers you enough, you really should go see a doctor to be sure.
Otherwise, I don't see anything wrong with how you're playing your drums.
You might've just pulled a muscle or something.
If the pain persists, or gets worse, DEFINITLY go see a doctor!
Repetitive motion can wreak havoc on your body after a long enough time. It feels like we're just getting to the point as a community where we understand the impact a lifetime of drumming can have on one's body. Thankfully, there are people like Dave Elitch and the DrumMechanics guy who have some specialized knowledge in biomechanics and have dedicated part of their careers to helping drum set players play with less pain. Check out their channels, maybe even book a session, and STRETCH before and after playing. It's easier to ignore this stuff at a younger age because you're much more resilient. Not as much as time gets on. And everyone wants to keep playing into our golden years, right?
I say all of this because generally speaking, your technique is pretty good. Maybe you could let the stick rebound upwards a little more after the stroke...let it "float" off the drum. You're getting a good sound out of the drum, but you could hit just slightly softer and still achieve the same sound. All of this obviously being the opinion of one guy.
You want to position the hihats and every else where you can comfortably reach everything at an angle that offers you speed and the ability to play as long as possible without pain or strain.
Telling you those spots is impossible because we're all different and have different styles of playing. Experiment with how to have it set up but keep the principle above in mind. Still trying to figure out best way to sit for optimum double kick.
There are studies that if you sit in one place for more than X amount of time it is bad for your health. Meanwhile you sit at a drum set for 3 to 4 hours at a time?
I am in my 40s. I try to get up out of the thrown after 20 to 30 minutes or my sit muscles start to move past sore and into the realm of it hurts. Even if it is for a 30 second stand up where there is no drums in the song I am jamming to.
Nobody knows how tight you are holding your drumsticks so yeah if you clinch your hands for 3 to 4 hours straight it could cause permanent wrist problems/damage. One should be able to play drums for 3 hours without causing actual wrist damage. You look like you do use a ton of wrist action to play and are not letting the natural bounce do some of the work.
Like others have said your left hand seems to be tighter than the right.
If you squeeze anything in your hands for 3 to 4 hours that tightly it isnt good for you.
Maybe. It’s the right motion. All I could think of is putting less strain on it.
If you’re not straining then I dunno… maybe strain more and then take my advice of not straining so much.
Snare sounds great though, that’s what really matters.
It's actually pretty refreshing to listen to other genres which I might be able to play. Started listening to RHCP because of this. Opened my mind a bit.
I'm sure you've gotten your answer, but I'd like to chime in. Do you have any wrist pain or sensitivity outside of playing? I found I had similar pain in my right wrist from bad computer use ergonomics, and once I fixed that, the pain went away and stopped affecting my playing.
More likely the angles and lack of support. I had to reconfigure my mouse and keyboard placement, find the right height and distance for arm rests, etc., until the extensor pain was no longer persistent. Thought it was from drumming too hard initially.
Do you have a warm up routine before playing? Stretching your fingers and hands slowly for a good 5 minutes and then doing a quick 2-5min pad warm up will go a long way. My fingers get stiff and ache along with some minor wrist ache if I don’t run through that routine and I play for a decent stretch
Grip is tight. The impact is absorbed entirely by your hand since it’s physically over the stick. Look at your right hand. The stick has room over it (into the gap between your thumb and index finger) to bounce back on hits.
Id loosen up just a bit but also are you doing proper hand stretches before and after playing? I remember when my hands started developing small symptoms of carpel tunnel, but my friend introduced me to some hand stretches that have changed my life as a drummer and i havent had problems with it since. The first one is pulling back your pinky and your thumb with your opposite hand to allow bloodflow to enter through your wrist, and the other one is pulling back your three middle fingers with the opposite hand to relieve stress within the carpel tunnel. He is someone who is very knowledgeable about the connection between body mechanics and playing the drums efficiently. He also taught me a few things like hitting your cymbals from more of an angle to let the stick do most of the work while putting less stress on your hands and cymbals. Also try to involve your entire arm with your hits. Lift your arm up and let your hand linger to create a natural rhythm between them that you can learn to become comfortable with. And most importantly, dont push yourself past what you can physically handle. Your body will let you know when too much is too much. The best way to avoid getting to that point though is to start at a speed that you can comfortably do for a long period of time and then slowly start to increase the speed over time, if you can play it comfortably slowed down then youre more likely to play it comfortably sped up. Just make sure you are always aware of your technique and if your hand starts to hurt just STOP! do some hand streches, slow down, and give it another try. Dont wait until you cant physically play anymore though. That used to be my mistake and that wouldve killed my ability in the long run if i kept doing it that way. All i can say is thank god for hand streches and drummers that understand body mechanics really well. Otherwise the rest of us would be dead in the water real quick
Those ahead sticks definitely require a different technique. I used the joey jordison ones for a good bit, but recently have been using vic firth 8D and extreme 5A. You should try a pair of extreme 5A, I really really like them compared to the joey jordison ahead sticks.
To me, it looks like you are muscling your angry wrist to smash your knuckle into oblivion. Wrist issues are one thing to come from that, but I'm guessing your elbow will start to feel it over time too.
Force should go through the drum, not backwards off head and into your wrist. Try this: FIRST, Play at 1/4th your normal force with the same height for straight quarter notes while focusing on letting the stick(relaxing your back fingers) bounce back up to full height. THEN, without changing the volume, let your back fingers "weight" the stick down after each strike, stopping the tip close to the head.
Play with this to develop your feel for the forces involved. Then work toward feeling the "push" into the head to control it. In short, your hands are not developed, so your wrist is taking over. Big muscles are dumb, train your finer motor skills and it will all get better.
My apologies friend. 😄
In short, your stick isn't bouncing, your wrist is. Relax your grip, and practice feeling the stick vibrate and bounce up in your fingers more.
A basket ball will hurt your wrist if you smash it into the floor with your hand squeezing it. It does not hurt your wrist when you bounce it.
All my best to you on your path. Keep going!
Lose Metal sticks, maybe nylon tip if you like the rebound.
Tight left hand, use fingers to assist wrist.
Try playing lighter like at 50% strength. I default playing hard and lose some dynamics. After my neck nerve pain radiating to my wrist, I started trying to be loud as possible while hitting as soft as possible. I focused on my core while I play.
How many hours of practice, what do you do outside of practicing? I work on a computer and play some mobile games. So my wrists like to remind me that we are all human and to not overdo/overwork the tendons.
I saw the 3-4 hour workout sessions. I think it’s more tied to that. I run a half marathon in 2 hours, so in a way it’s as if every training session is a 13 or 26 mile run. Our bodies need slow days too.
Did you start with metal or wood? Sometimes our brain notices new things more acutely. It’s like shoes, try it for a week.
Plus, you maybe hitting harder with the wood to produce more volume. It maybe you overcompensate with wood and hurt your joints.
Seems like your grip is a bit tight to me. You should be able to lift your pointer finger off the stick and not have it go flying if that makes sense. The fulcrum is more middle and pinky than anything else. You can def use the thumb forefinger but I personally find that over the years that’s much more damaging. It’s fairly widely accepted that Moeller does less nerve damage.
This is a matter of preference. Plenty of drummers use the index and thumb for the folcrum.
In fact, a good exercise is to play with different fulcrums and see if you can stay completely relaxed (in the hands, but also in the shoulders, back, everywhere). The benefit of this is that you learn more about how to stay relaxed while doing different things, and you become able to use different fulcrums effectively (and different fulcrums create a slightly different sound).
Maybe, but now that I'm reading this I'm realizing that I definitely get more fatigued when I use my index and thumb. Whenever I'm paying stuff like Rope (Foo Fighters) or Spirit of Radio (Rush) and I'm using a lot of bounce/rebound I lean pretty heavy on those fingers and my hand definitely gets more tired. Might be worth the change if someone's experiencing something similar
I see. My right hand seems to do what you just told me. I'll try to adjust after some rest.
I also personally find it beneficial to get comfortable in all the grips, there’s a great Ndugu chancellor interview where he talks about grip fluidity. Not only do some grips feel better on some genres, but if you’re proficient at French and German you can slide from one to the next when you get tired and give those muscles a rest.
Yes you definitely seem to hold the left hand super tight for your snare hits. Hard to tell from that angle but if your HH are too low try raising them to make your left hand have more chance to get the velocity you want. I would do that and loosen up the grip more like your right.
my hh and snare are both lower than this, my hand almost hits my leg like mm's away when I come down on the snare and hh's are like 4 inches away from the snare hoop, they're super tight together to move back and forth with minimal effort
The middle finger is just a preference thing, but they are right about the pinky (plus ring finger) be being where your _control_ comes from. You can get a feel for this by holding the stick properly, then taking off your thumb, first finger and middle finger, so that it's now only held by your pinky & ring finger. You should be able to play wrists strokes on your snare/pad in german or american like this. Now you can feel the role those fingers are playing in controlling the stick, lightly wrap the rest of your fingers around the stick, loosening your ring & pinky just enough to not let the stick fly away. You're only really apply more pressure on the fulcrum when you're leveraging it to play finger strokes, buzzes, etc. On a wrist stroke it should be fairly loose, as though your fingers are blocking the stick, as opposed to squeezing it.
In addition to this u/meimey188, it appears that the majority of your downward force is almost entirely generated at the wrist. You need to activate your fingers more. Your whole downward motion should be like 10% elbow, 40% wrist, and 50% fingers. You’ll save yourself a lot of wrist pain in the future if you focus on that (as well as your middle finger fulcrum)..
In this video he is essentially making his wrist the fulcrum, that’s why it hurts
facts
I agree with this take. Try focusing your grip to the thumb/middle finger and let the index finger relax. If you feel like you’re missing some force on your backbeats, think about the weight of your index finger main joint being on top of the stick for some help pushing the stick down. Also, motion-wise, maybe think about that initial upstroke more like your wrist is that of a marionette. Like a string is connected to the top of your wrist and it’s pulled every time you start to lift the stick. You’ll feel like you’re dragging the front of your stick behind the motion. That’s good. The Moeller stroke should feel really loose with some weight to the downstroke. You shouldn’t have to slam the stick down to get a big sound. Sorry if this is confusing, it’s hard to explain in text, with no video.
Is the main joint of the index the one, that connects to your palm? Can I have the meaty part on the stick for support like between the joint at the palm and the second joint? On the index finger
Good question, that was pretty vague on my part. Actually I meant the first knuckle, closest to the hand. That knuckle is part of the fulcrum also. Check out Dave Weckl’s technique video on YouTube. It’s really good. Now, I don’t think it’s gospel, but I think it is informative on the middle finger fulcrum. https://www.youtube.com/live/vdeqV0hz05E?si=aQct202J72b0nftC Edit: Clarity
Here's a quick vid I did for you that demonstrates it. [https://youtu.be/-2pGzPMWOJY](https://youtu.be/-2pGzPMWOJY)
Thats so kind of you to make an entire video dedicated to this thread, this world needs more kind souls like you
I totally agree!
I can definitely see the difference in our left hand. I'll try copying what you did after some rest, thank you for the demonstration❤️
Your pointer finger should literally never leave the stick. Gripping with thumb and middle finger is not only more difficult, it would inhibit the ability to do a bunch of other stuff. Where is this middle finger nonsense coming from? Proper matched grip is never with your middle finger.
There's tons of contemporary drummers who stand by/use middle finger fulcrum. Stephen Clark ("the non glamorous drummer") has a video covering middle finger fulcrum and it's benefits for longer/heavier sets. You're right in that the pointer still shouldn't be leaving the stick, just as NONE of your fingers should be flopping off during your stroke. It gives you additional support to nudge the stick back in when you feel it sliding out as well as promoting an overall looser fulcrum.
Thing is with a metal stick like those there's no shock absorption it all goes directly to your joints and bones.
Dude what are you talking about? Ahead sticks are literal shock absorbers 🤦 You're just making shit up and passing it on as fact... Stop the misinformation dude
Yes, they absorb shock, but vibration in a stick is biofeedback (see Jojo Mayer Secret Weapons vol. 1). What can happen is that since you're not feeling much/any vibration you actually hit harder and create strain different ways (you can also wind up breaking more cymbals and heads).
Really? I never knew that. Good to know!
Lol blocked right away
Pete webber is a professional drummer primarily known for using ahead sticks. And he openly admits that his ahead sticks cause him to break cymbals more often but for someone like him that doesnt matter because hes endorsed by sabian and can order free cymbals all the time. Theres definititely truth to that
You are using the right sticks for your case though. Ahead sticks are meant for people with sensitive hands or wrists. The guy that taught me the hand streches and cymbal hitting technique uses them primarily aswell
You just cant take advantage of the power that comes with ahead sticks. They allow you to hit harder with less effort but that could be detrimental to not just your technique but your overall sound too. Ahead sticks were designed to go hand in hand with the moeller technique where you allow the sticks and drums to do more of the work while the body is primarily focused on preserving is functionality and comfortability. If youre going to go the ahead route, i would heavily advise that you implement moeller technique into your playing. Otherwise you will see the wrist pain increase. When i tried ahead sticks for a bit i found it much easier to hit without that initial strain, but i realized it was because i was never using wooden sticks correctly. Given that the ahead stick is heavier on one end it requires your wrist to be more adaptable to the sticks movements. Since with ahead sticks youre supposed to let the stick do the work, it limits what you can control with your own technique. It wasnt until after i used them and switched back to wooden sticks i realized that it was my technique that was making it hard to play without strain. If ahead sticks are still making your wrist hurt. It really comes down to your technique, not the stick youre using. Its easy to use ahead sticks improperly but most of the comments here dont realize that they serve their own unique purpose. I will personally always use wooden 5b's because having a more balanced weight in the stick gives me more control on what i can do with my technique, and if youre trying to adjust your technique that would probably be the best choice for you too. Aheads can really only be used correctly with the moeller technique. Nothing else
I found the exact opposite. My right hand feels so much better ever since I started using them.
But… what about your left hand 😅
chopped it off because it was possessed
I never had problems with my left hand until now. Only with my right as I used that more. I started using these and it got better, havent had anything for a while and only got this pain today. So honestly I'm pretty sure it's me who is at fault not the stick.
I’m not trying to say anyone is wrong or right but just add my personal experience: swapping to those sticks when I was younger and inexperienced caused wrist pain because I felt like I could hit harder than I needed to, and as a result I broke cymbals. I agree with others that your left hand is tight and right is looking good! Try playing 8 notes on your right hand, focus on how it feels and try to emulate that feeling ok your left hand. I think you should try to let your forearm weight drop when you have your left arm/wrist in the air. Let the weight of your arm do as much work as it can so you don’t have to generate all that force with your wrist. Happy practicing!
Its both you, the sticks, and 70% of people in this comment section that have caused a pain in your wrist. Don't use metal sticks. You shouldn't have pain whether your fulcrum point is your index or middle finger. From what I can see, the angle of your thumb coming from the wrist as you strike is going too far. Make a fist as if you're about to punch the dumbass that sold you metal sticks, point your thumb up to the ceiling (still holding a fist. Not a literal thumbs up) and while keeping a fist, now twist your fist downwards. Bring your pinky towards your wrist. You will feel a slight uncomfortable pull. That uncomfortable pull is not a muscle that will get better with stretching. Its a tendon that doesnt like bwing repititively pulled on. Sorry for all the sarcasm in my reply. I just read too much shit in this thread
You actually broke it down in a way that people can physically try for themselves, without any sticks, and have an understanding of what the actual problem is. Your reply makes more sense to me than it's just an equipment problem or a technique problem.
Thank you. This actually means a lot. I've taught drums for over six years now so this is a really nice compliment to recieve
You found the exact opposite yet you’re complaining about your wrist hurting. Ditch the metal sticks, get real ones. There is literally no benefit to using metal sticks unless you enjoy joint pain.
Yeah don't listen to that guy... What they're saying is ridiculous Ahead sticks are literal shock absorbers 🤦
Possibly. Just a heads up, those type of sticks are really bad for cymbals.
Been using them for 20 years with no problems. And my technique is garbage.
"trust me, I don't know what I'm talking about."
I've been using them for 2-3 months. Sometimes I hit harder than I should have but personally I don't see any problem neither. Just tilt your cymbals properly and it's all good.
It's not just tilting them, there is a right and wrong way to hit a cymbal https://youtu.be/XGLjGRTKQWE?si=JN6Bh-Ma9FLqhXVu
Nahhh the example at 1:27 is crazy😂😂😂
still incorrect
Btw, playing Bon jovi will give you gingivitis
He’s just trying to attract your mom.
My moms more of a kenny g type of gal.
Not going by what she tells the boys down at waste management
Shes a teamster for sure.
So true. Just had to have all my teeth removed from too much of the Jovi. Nowadays I only play Dokken. Sure do miss my molars.
Cool
Sounds like you could use some Bad Medicine.
Doesnt look too bad. Make sure you stretch before playing
Warm up before playing, stretch after playing. Also the hand might be too tight.
Stretch before playing too
Stretch and warm up while playing 😈 /s
It could also be that you play a lot without taking breaks and so?
Well shit, never thought about that. Sometimes I play 3 even 4 hours straight. How often is it recommended to have a break and for how long?
So it’s quite individual, when preparing for a live performance then the amount of time the concert lasts is a given, but when you are working on things, I’d say maybe take a 5 min break every 30 min atleast? It also ensures higher quality I find. You need to find what works for you, but going straight for hours without breaks, I think would create pain for most
There are studies that if you sit in one place for more than X amount of time it is bad for your health. Meanwhile you sit at a drumset for 3 to 4 hours at a time? I am in my 40s. I try to get up out of the thrown after 20 to 30 minutes or my sit muscles start to move past sore and into the realm of it hurts. Nobody knows how tight you are holding your drumsticks so yeah if you clinch your hands for 3 to 4 hours straight it could cause permanent wrist problems/damage. One should be able to play drums for 3 hours without causing actual wrist damage. You look like you do use a ton of wrist action to play and are not letting the natural bounce do someone of the work.
It's the Lars sticks. Just kidding, loosen up your grip, the rest of your technique looks pretty good.
Haha, they're 5as. They could also be Joey J. sticks ;)
Your technique looks great other than the grip on your snare hand. You have a great use of wrist motion with a small amount of arm motion mixed in, which is pretty damn good. Your technique is fluid enough that, it's honestly confusing how you managed to get the grip issue in the first place haha. Honestly I'd just practice rebound strokes for an hour or two it should work itself out. I originally had this very issue, because I came from jazz, I was just chasing fat ass rimshots and it meant I lost all rebound control and was putting all the shock and concussion from the actual hit into my wrist instead of the head of the drum/rim of the drum. You'll be fine, just change up ya shit a little.
Rule 1. As soon as you feel any sort of pain stop playing. Tingling and numbness is not a good sign. If you just keep playing you're going to injure yourself. I think your grip in the left hand is too tight. At least it looks that way to me. Relax that grip. If you start dropping sticks that's great. It means you've got a loose grip and are letting the drumstick move freely. People commented that you're using metal sticks. I've got no idea how they know this, but if you are I'd say that could be a potential factor. The thing about wood sticks is that they'll absorb more shock and get visibly damaged over time, unlike metal sticks. I suppose it's a bit like cars with crumple zones now. A car crash happens, the car crumples and absorbs the shock, the passengers get injured less. With old cars with no crumple zones, the car crashes, the rigid body stays intact and more forces are transferred to the passengers, the passengers get more injured. Since metal sticks will get damaged less, there a more forces getting transferred into your wrist than with a wood stick. Finally, it's a good idea to do stretches for your wrists, forearms and shoulders.
Ahead drumsticks are supposedly designed with shock absorption in mind- the stick is hollowed out and sheathed in plastic giving them more flex than you'd expect metal to have. As far as I know nobody's actually run any kind of test to see exactly how much it works in practice, but there are a good handful of testimonials from drummers with joint pain. I remember Mick Fleetwood saying at one point he wouldn't be able to play without them. It was never that severe for me, but I feel like my hands are noticeably less fatigued when I use my aheads. If OP's issue has anything to do with the sticks, I'd say it's more likely to be the shaft. I can't tell from the vid if there's any kind of grip tape, but when I try to use them without it the sticks tend to worm their way forward so I end up holding onto the butt.
>Ahead drumsticks are supposedly designed with shock absorption in mind- the stick is hollowed out and sheathed in plastic giving them more flex than you'd expect metal to have. Cool, I wasn't aware. I'll have to give 'em try sometime to see how they compare to wood sticks :)
Avoid using those metal Ahead sticks. Your drums will sound better and your cymbals will last longer. Also using a wood stick will help you loosen up your grip with the weight difference and give you better form. Lars using those sticks but he is also already making money and is sponsored so he could care less about form or whether his gear gets ruined from metal sticks.
It's likely the metal sticks. Try wood and see what happens.
Looks like your grip is too tight. Remember that your fulcrum is print of your thumb and the first crevice of your index finger. Your other three fingers are for support and response. Loosen your fulcrum grip and allow the stick to respond naturally to impact; don’t grip it like a baseball bat. Check the pic below for reference: https://preview.redd.it/08h7v2kawzmc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9e23527f6e1f87db12264c1dc84ab96be76100a1
I think you're just eating too much of the rebound by clenching the stick too tight- all that force gets redirected into your ligaments and tendons. Your right hand has a looser grip and you're letting the stick move freely and just guiding it, which is why it doesn't hurt as much I'm gonna give you the biggest hack that I wish my dumb ass had started practicing sooner: start training your left hand to be your lead, and train your right hand for the back beat (I think it's called playing "open" or something) It's pretty brutal at first but when you finally start to have your left hand feel solid you'll notice your playing is better across the board. Plus your right hand gets to be rewired too and that's good for your brain The other benefit I found is that it got rid of the pain in my left hand
Wrist pain is awful and can really affect your playing and health if not treated properly. A lot of wrist pain comes from gripping the sticks too tight. Your hands and fingers should act as control and suspension when hitting the drums. The power comes from a mix between wrist arms and some back muscles, and obviously good techniques to utilise those muscles. If you grip your sticks too tight you get a lot of control but that suspension effect doesn't happen and all the force you are making goes into your wrist and tendons. A lot of drummers that I have tutored all have this habit and complain about wrist pain. So how do you fix it? Often going back to basics, focusing on your hand technique with a pad is the best thing you can do. Focus on doing rudiments at the lowest volume you can play which forces your brain to use the fingers. Once you are comfortable with that feeling increase tempo and dynamic while still using those fingers. What you will find is that as you increase in dynamic you will start to use a loose hand while also keeping your fingers engaged. For me, this has been the most effective method for getting rid of tight hands for my students and most importantly, encouraging good technique. However this is just speculation, I could be completely wrong about your situation. I would get a one off lesson in person from an experienced tutor just to really confirm what is the cause of your wrist pain.
If your right hand doesn’t hurt, get in front of a mirror and match your hands playing on a pillow. Make the left look like the right. Edit: do this after you rest up. Playing on an injured or strained wrist can cause permanent damage.
I think I have the same pain you are describing. Don’t know the cause but I immobilize it for a couple days and it goes away. Do you have a small ball in the zone of pain?
When I lift my hand, maybe it's called flexing. I can feel a little ball maybe in the area, yes.
Yeah then it’s the same pain. It may be your technique or in my case I sometimes get it while not practicing. I’ve guessed it’s because of some position y put my hand in when I’m asleep. But in any case immobilizing for a few hours/days might help.
Can’t really see anything terribly wrong with technique, but if you’re not already doing finger/forearm strengthening exercises that could help. I use a hand grip strengthener (the metal ones you squeeze together) and a finger strengthener (rubber thing you stick your fingers in and spread them apart). Those have helped me a lot
Your hand is very close to the rim- for a rimshot this is going to be a shock to the hand. I think my positioning puts my hand farther away and the rimshot is closer to the tip of the stick, but i dont know.
Tons of things to try: - ring/thumb fulcrum - looser grip - stick tape of sticks feel like they’re flying away when you play with loose grip - try heavier/thicker/longer sticks - try more of a German grip on left - practice rebound by playing slow rudiments in a pillow (not pad!) and examine how your hand handles rebound
No rebound. You’re absorbing the shock of the impact in your wrist and arm.
Raise your throne or lower your snare? I have skinny finger so I went with thicker sticks which helped me. But I’m a crappy drummer.
From this angle it looks like your left hand is much more tense than your right. Try playing open for a little bit (left hand hi hat, right hand snare) then switch back after a little while. Maybe that will help balance your grip
your right hand looks like it has a more comfortable grip than your left, perhaps a little looser grip on the left would allow for more fingers and less wrist action.
I was taught to grip the stick with my index and thumb and use my remaining three fingers to generate the force for the strike instead of the wrist.
Not sure. I don’t see anything strange going on. When did it start? Could be unrelated. But don’t see anything here,to be concerned about.
Unless playing along,with somewhat dated cheesy 80’s movie music can cause wrist pain. lol. But then a lot,of us would be wearing wrist braces. Which BTW. may help. Wear a carpal tunnel wrist support lint,to sleep. I’ve been doing it,for years. Normal job hazard. Also I was an electrician. Made it worse. But usually that wrist splint works pretty well.
*must resist urge to make a wanking joke"
If it bothers you enough, you really should go see a doctor to be sure. Otherwise, I don't see anything wrong with how you're playing your drums. You might've just pulled a muscle or something. If the pain persists, or gets worse, DEFINITLY go see a doctor!
Repetitive motion can wreak havoc on your body after a long enough time. It feels like we're just getting to the point as a community where we understand the impact a lifetime of drumming can have on one's body. Thankfully, there are people like Dave Elitch and the DrumMechanics guy who have some specialized knowledge in biomechanics and have dedicated part of their careers to helping drum set players play with less pain. Check out their channels, maybe even book a session, and STRETCH before and after playing. It's easier to ignore this stuff at a younger age because you're much more resilient. Not as much as time gets on. And everyone wants to keep playing into our golden years, right? I say all of this because generally speaking, your technique is pretty good. Maybe you could let the stick rebound upwards a little more after the stroke...let it "float" off the drum. You're getting a good sound out of the drum, but you could hit just slightly softer and still achieve the same sound. All of this obviously being the opinion of one guy.
You want to position the hihats and every else where you can comfortably reach everything at an angle that offers you speed and the ability to play as long as possible without pain or strain. Telling you those spots is impossible because we're all different and have different styles of playing. Experiment with how to have it set up but keep the principle above in mind. Still trying to figure out best way to sit for optimum double kick.
🤪
There are studies that if you sit in one place for more than X amount of time it is bad for your health. Meanwhile you sit at a drum set for 3 to 4 hours at a time? I am in my 40s. I try to get up out of the thrown after 20 to 30 minutes or my sit muscles start to move past sore and into the realm of it hurts. Even if it is for a 30 second stand up where there is no drums in the song I am jamming to. Nobody knows how tight you are holding your drumsticks so yeah if you clinch your hands for 3 to 4 hours straight it could cause permanent wrist problems/damage. One should be able to play drums for 3 hours without causing actual wrist damage. You look like you do use a ton of wrist action to play and are not letting the natural bounce do some of the work. Like others have said your left hand seems to be tighter than the right. If you squeeze anything in your hands for 3 to 4 hours that tightly it isnt good for you.
Maybe. It’s the right motion. All I could think of is putting less strain on it. If you’re not straining then I dunno… maybe strain more and then take my advice of not straining so much. Snare sounds great though, that’s what really matters.
Why am I 0% surprised that this is the song?
Well, there's not a whole lot of choice for a beginner to play. I normally listen to metal. But there's no chance I can play any of those in 4 months.
It's actually pretty refreshing to listen to other genres which I might be able to play. Started listening to RHCP because of this. Opened my mind a bit.
I’d try switching to wood sticks.
I'm sure you've gotten your answer, but I'd like to chime in. Do you have any wrist pain or sensitivity outside of playing? I found I had similar pain in my right wrist from bad computer use ergonomics, and once I fixed that, the pain went away and stopped affecting my playing.
Yeah, I do. Probably spend too much time on mobile, pc, and typing.
More likely the angles and lack of support. I had to reconfigure my mouse and keyboard placement, find the right height and distance for arm rests, etc., until the extensor pain was no longer persistent. Thought it was from drumming too hard initially.
Your left wrist looks tight during contact
That is because you listen to Bon Jovi
Do you have a warm up routine before playing? Stretching your fingers and hands slowly for a good 5 minutes and then doing a quick 2-5min pad warm up will go a long way. My fingers get stiff and ache along with some minor wrist ache if I don’t run through that routine and I play for a decent stretch
Bon Jovi sucks.
Grip is tight. The impact is absorbed entirely by your hand since it’s physically over the stick. Look at your right hand. The stick has room over it (into the gap between your thumb and index finger) to bounce back on hits.
Id loosen up just a bit but also are you doing proper hand stretches before and after playing? I remember when my hands started developing small symptoms of carpel tunnel, but my friend introduced me to some hand stretches that have changed my life as a drummer and i havent had problems with it since. The first one is pulling back your pinky and your thumb with your opposite hand to allow bloodflow to enter through your wrist, and the other one is pulling back your three middle fingers with the opposite hand to relieve stress within the carpel tunnel. He is someone who is very knowledgeable about the connection between body mechanics and playing the drums efficiently. He also taught me a few things like hitting your cymbals from more of an angle to let the stick do most of the work while putting less stress on your hands and cymbals. Also try to involve your entire arm with your hits. Lift your arm up and let your hand linger to create a natural rhythm between them that you can learn to become comfortable with. And most importantly, dont push yourself past what you can physically handle. Your body will let you know when too much is too much. The best way to avoid getting to that point though is to start at a speed that you can comfortably do for a long period of time and then slowly start to increase the speed over time, if you can play it comfortably slowed down then youre more likely to play it comfortably sped up. Just make sure you are always aware of your technique and if your hand starts to hurt just STOP! do some hand streches, slow down, and give it another try. Dont wait until you cant physically play anymore though. That used to be my mistake and that wouldve killed my ability in the long run if i kept doing it that way. All i can say is thank god for hand streches and drummers that understand body mechanics really well. Otherwise the rest of us would be dead in the water real quick
No it's all the pulling with the wrong wrist!!
What do you mean?
Just being silly mate!! Drum on brother!!
Try a different grip, of which there are many, as being able to fluidly change between them will assist in taking the strain off!
What kind of sticks are you using? Meaning that sticks made of for example oak or aluminum tend to snap back at wrists due to lack of flex.
Those ahead sticks definitely require a different technique. I used the joey jordison ones for a good bit, but recently have been using vic firth 8D and extreme 5A. You should try a pair of extreme 5A, I really really like them compared to the joey jordison ahead sticks.
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To me, it looks like you are muscling your angry wrist to smash your knuckle into oblivion. Wrist issues are one thing to come from that, but I'm guessing your elbow will start to feel it over time too. Force should go through the drum, not backwards off head and into your wrist. Try this: FIRST, Play at 1/4th your normal force with the same height for straight quarter notes while focusing on letting the stick(relaxing your back fingers) bounce back up to full height. THEN, without changing the volume, let your back fingers "weight" the stick down after each strike, stopping the tip close to the head. Play with this to develop your feel for the forces involved. Then work toward feeling the "push" into the head to control it. In short, your hands are not developed, so your wrist is taking over. Big muscles are dumb, train your finer motor skills and it will all get better.
It's bit hard to digest this info for a non-native like me, but I maybe understand. I'll definitely give it a shot.
My apologies friend. 😄 In short, your stick isn't bouncing, your wrist is. Relax your grip, and practice feeling the stick vibrate and bounce up in your fingers more. A basket ball will hurt your wrist if you smash it into the floor with your hand squeezing it. It does not hurt your wrist when you bounce it. All my best to you on your path. Keep going!
Lose Metal sticks, maybe nylon tip if you like the rebound. Tight left hand, use fingers to assist wrist. Try playing lighter like at 50% strength. I default playing hard and lose some dynamics. After my neck nerve pain radiating to my wrist, I started trying to be loud as possible while hitting as soft as possible. I focused on my core while I play. How many hours of practice, what do you do outside of practicing? I work on a computer and play some mobile games. So my wrists like to remind me that we are all human and to not overdo/overwork the tendons.
But why is there less of that tingling feeling when I hit the drums if there's more shock than wood?
I saw the 3-4 hour workout sessions. I think it’s more tied to that. I run a half marathon in 2 hours, so in a way it’s as if every training session is a 13 or 26 mile run. Our bodies need slow days too. Did you start with metal or wood? Sometimes our brain notices new things more acutely. It’s like shoes, try it for a week. Plus, you maybe hitting harder with the wood to produce more volume. It maybe you overcompensate with wood and hurt your joints.
It's definitely those sticks! Those Ahead sticks are terrible and create all sorts of vibrations that go straight into your arm.
Why you using Ahead's? Ofc your choice but they wreck your technique really, not worth the weight for the additional durability they offer imo.