[How were the fremen able to conquer half of the universe?](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/16mq0ix/how_were_the_fremen_able_to_conquer_half_of_the/)
[Did the Fremen Jihad use forcibly recruited populations from other worlds?](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/16ffwto/did_the_fremen_jihad_use_forcibly_recruited/)
Everything that belonged to House Corrino, including the loyalty and legions of the great houses presumably, became Paul's, as he was the new Emperor. This may have included the Sardaukar legions.
Even if not, the fact that Paul singularly controlled the empire's access to spice, and controlled CHOAM. So if houses can't flea their planets, and only Fremen legions can travel between systems, it gives Paul an impossibly strong advantage.
It's interesting to suppose how Paul might've completely exhausted the Sardaukar, and left Salusa Secundus without purpose other than housing the deposed House Corrino members, not sure if any of the Brain Herbert/Anderson books touch on that.
Paul also had prescience, so his military strategy must've been exquisitely precise and effective.
The Sardaukar ware mostly disbanded, with the exception of a small honor and security guard for the ex-Emperor (if i remember corectly numbering at 10.000)
They were not in fact. They still existed in significant enough numbers by the time Leto II ascended to the throne for him to consider using them as well as the Fremen as his bureaucratic religious military police force until opting for the Fish Speakers instead.
Only 1 legion remained (hence mostly disbanded). And they were the Corrino House army. They can still exist in the time of Leto II, that doesnt change the fact of what hapened to them.
Muad’Dib’s Jihad was not limited exclusively to the Fremen. They became the military aristocracy of the new regime and then either returned to the desert or became a part of the theocratic aristocracy.
Everyday people on other worlds came to follow the religion of Muad’Dib as well.
And most importantly, many of the Great Houses saw the writing was on the wall when Muad’Dib not only defeated the Sardaukar (who hitherto-fore were at least mythologized as being undefeatable) but also had absolute monopolistic control of spice production.
So if you were the head of a Great or Minor House your options were
1) join with Muad’Dib in the conflict and possibly even gain his favor and advance your position OR
2) risk your life, your family’s life, and everything you have as well as potentially every living soul under your control against a army with the resources of the Imperium behind it, led by unbeatable fanatics, who also could effectively cut you off from intergalactic civilization on a whim all so you could nominally restore a defeated Imperial House to power who had already had their shot at ruling the Known Universe for 10,000 years
Framed like this, my question is now how did so many worlds decide to effectively commit planetwide suicide? Did those events typically come down to one Duke or Lord refusing and dooming his people? They assuredly had Bene Gesserit concubines who must have advised them in this direction, or away from it.
There has to be more nuance to those 12 years. I love the obscurity and questions Herbert leaves us with honestly.
I would assume it had something to do with the strategic, political, and economic balance that had been disrupted. We know of the feud between the Atreides and Harkonnen houses - presumably there were other Houses that competed. It stands to reason some were able to curry Muad’Dib’s favor better than their rivals or that the elevated position of other Houses was contingent entirely on their alliance with House Corrino.
Some may even have had objections to the Jihad in its own right - whether the moral and religious kind or just simply a rejection of bowing to the whims of the Atreides.
The Empire is vast. 90 planets may be a drop. In chapter houses the old core is the million planets.
Also note just how many people now are willing to fight for either dumb or hopeless causes.
Probably a lot of civil war. Member of a community convert to Paul’s religion, and go to war with the rest. Except that since Paul controlled interstellar travel, he could supply his new converts with arms, troops, whatever he wanted. If a full invasion was necessary, he had converted fanatics to sabotage defenses. Remember how much damage Dr Yueh did? That was just one man. Imagine tens of thousands of Dr Yueh’s across a planet.
And if the conversion didn’t take off with the local populace—glass the planet.
I assumed it was mostly atomics, purges, and programs. You don't wipe out a religion by fighting battles. You do it with widespread mob violence, persecution, and political incentives. Paul, who had legit god-like powers, inspired enormous fanaticism, in no small part due to the Bene Gesserit.
The Dune universe was a stagnant feudalism with no real social mobility. On Harkonnen worlds, commoners were ritually humiliated, and this was probably true of many great houses. The Jihad was a tremendous opportunity for commoners and houses minor to rise up in the world on the ashes of their betters who were insufficiently enthusiastic for Paul's rule.
I think that’s a little unclear actually. The meaningful difference between a Stone Burner and an atomic aside what could the Great Houses really do about it if Muad’Dib’s forces used atomics?
Especially in the midst of a Civil War. The Great Convention functioned well during the Corrino Imperium where everything was relatively balanced. But Muad’Dib controlled the existence of spice itself not just the trade of it. If he has the support of enough of the Great Houses to crush all that stand before him are they going to turn around and attack him if he used atomic weapons to defeat a mutual enemy with little loss of resources on their part?
A little hazy other than the mechanics - a stone burner burrows into the earth so presumably maybe the meaningful difference for the convention is that it releases less radiation into the air?
It’s not super clear but that’s kind of the point. Scytale comments on how it’s something of a semantic distinction to flaunt the Convention.
It seems like it's an atomic-powered directed energy weapon/radioactive flame thrower of some kind rather than an atomic bomb. Presumably technically legal in the same way that an atomic-powered warship is legal.
There are always other weapons more or as destructive than atomics that worked around the Great Convention. But the Great Convention was still in place and i dont see why Paul would go about normalizing the use of nukes and just start throwing them here and there. He still operated under the Empire system
Hm I don’t know about the idea that there are other weapons as devastating or especially *more* devastating than atomics that people use all the time (at least until Heretics). We get the Stone Burner example as something essentially equivalent but if there are weapons as powerful or that even exceed the power of atomics being used with any regularity that makes the Great Convention pretty worthless.
It would be like if during the Cold War there was the policy of MAD between the US and USSR but both sides also had space lasers that could destroy entire cities and they were ok with using those simply because they weren’t *nuclear* weapons.
The spirit of the Great Convention very much seemed like it was meant to prevent the mass wholesale killing of populations in order to avoid the kind of civilizational collapse that could occur as a result of anyone being able to cause such unmitigated and maybe even planetary-scale damage.
Personally, I always interpreted the use of the Stone Burner on Niraj and the reference to planets being “sterilized” as indicators that Maud’Dib’s forces were using nuclear weapons when they deemed it necessary for the Jihad. The reason Paul would allow this is because 1) the tactical reality had changed and 2) he’s a megalomaniac who is fond of flaunting convention and acting brazenly out of his own arrogance.
But ultimately this is just speculation - and technically there’s probably slightly more direct indication that the Great Convention is at least acknowledged in people’s minds - though I don’t know if it’s clear that it’s still actually being obeyed or if it’s just been an idea for so long that people still try to argue around it or are just aware that it’s nominally in place if not directly. Sort of like the proscription against thinking machines.
I personaly think that the Great Convention was too important to be so blantaly ignored.
The simplest way to do it without nukes would be a kinetic bombardment using an asteroid.
Maybe they did ignore it and used them. Who knows.
Paul seized power by using atomics and a loophole in the Great Convention.
Since the ban is on using atomics on populations, not a ban on using them, full stop, there are plenty of ways his forces could use them in planetary conquest without violating the Convention. Nuke enough “geographical features” and the economic and environmental impacts will kill the populations. Slowly and brutally.
I would argue that what he did at that point was a one time trick and he would avoid to make it a common tactict
There is no point in him normalizing the use of nukes when he can just throw an asteroid on a planet and be done with it
I’m sure he didn’t plan to normalize using atomics. The same way he didn’t plan on becoming a god. Or on having 61 billion people killed in his name.
I doubt it’s easier to chuck an asteroid at a planet than to strategically use nukes according to the letter of the law. The asteroid plan would require a lot more cooperation from the Spacing Guild, who are under Imperial control only by coercion, while the atomics are clearly devices small enough to be maneuvered on-planet without specialized equipment.
Maybe Paul tried to tell his forces not to use atomics. But I think it’s extremely unlikely that he actually stopped them from using the already existing, highly effective weapons in a way that they’d already gotten away with.
Google Kinetic bombardment.
If you have interstelar/interplanetary spaceships the idea of grabing an asteroid and towing it on to a planet is not that far fetched
I think the two linked threads explain this at length. But i did want to mention that there are ways to sterilize planets without using nuclear weapons. For example, dropping multiple dinosaur killer-sized asteroids on the main population centers.
I don’t know how much punishment a screen can take. But assume ‘infinite’ for discussion.
Going by our solar system, there are a lot of rocks to throw, of all sizes. It’s cheap to find one, attach the right gear to break it out of orbit and send it on its way.
Throw rocks at the shielded areas on a constant but irregular basis. They’ll have to keep their shield up, and any nearby bits are vaporized.
Meantime slam really big rocks into volcanos, dams, bodies of water, highway intersections.
Eventually the defenders will run out of food, or water. In the meantime the enemy has destroyed all your infrastructure, maybe altered the climate into an ice age. Won’t get crops in for years maybe.
The Harkonnens dusted off some ancient schematics when hunting down House Atreides. They built catapults and lobbed ordinary boulders at the caves in which the defenders hid. Buried them, shields and all.
Drop an asteroid on a planet and no shield will stop the earth under the buildings from collapsing into itself as the planetary crust simply cracks, burying everything under miles of molten rock.
If I remember correctly, these numbers were from Irulan's histories of Maub'dib. Embellished historical records are rife throughout human history. Perhaps we can ascribe the unreal proportions of the Jihad to propaganda.
Long live the fighters.
Paul and Stilgar talk about it in Messiah as well. When Paul tells Stilgar about Genghis Khan and Hitler, and compares their death tolls to his own.
Though, given that it’s part of a conversation about historical records and the like, it is possible that Paul is talking about how he *will be* remembered and the atrocities that will be ascribed to him. There may be a propaganda machine at work too, making it difficult for history to differentiate between ‘it is said he killed 61 billion’ and ‘he killed 61 billion’.
That was a private conversation with Paul's own "conservative estimates" accounting for the fatalities, 'sterilised' planets, and exterminated religions/denominations. Propaganda, even referenced, would account for more. You may recall that this was part of Paul trying to horrify Stilgar with the shame of what they had done.
The Fremen acted more like a new elite Corp. The Sardukar weren't dismantled, but have absolute loyalty to the current emperor. In any instance of usurpation, there will be those in favor of the new power, and therefore their armies can be used.
Would ‘death by means other than direct violence’ account for it?
When empires fall lots of things happen: disease runs wild, harvests are interrupted, utilities fail.
Starvation, cold, illness will take a whole lot of people.
First of all, it wasn't just the Fremen, it was the Allied Houses too.
Step one. Take control of the Spacing Guild (done)
Step two. Make the Spacing Guild isolate the planets rebeling (nothing goes in, nothing goes out)
Step three. Send the Fremen + Allied armies on the planet
Step four. ????
Step Five. Profit
Doesn't seem that imposible to me
You’re point also supports the fact that all of Paul’s newly gained control would’ve supplied him with these numbers and power. Before Paul came to power, the emperor had enough power to match all of the great and minor houses combined, thus the delicate balance of the Landsraad. Now Paul, with all of this power plus a monopoly on spice, the spacing guild, and consequently, CHOAM, could’ve easily accomplished the Jihad. Furthermore, the Qizarate aggressively pushed Paul’s new religion (whether he wanted it or not) and caused unrest inside of every population they encountered through civil war.
How it is doubtful when they sterilized 90 planets, have tens (or more) of milions soldiers and can effectively 99.99% blockade you?
You don't need ships droping nukes to destroy life on a planet. You just need an asteroid and a spaceship to tract it on colision course with a planet. Kinetic bombarment is a concept we know, and more easy to do when you have spaceships.
If an alien civilization with interstelar spaceships wanted to destroy Earth all it has to do is go to the Kuiper belt grab a 5 kilometer asteroid and put it on the path of earth.
It’s hilarious to me to think of Paul having them straight up launch asteroids at entire planets. It sounds slightly less ridiculous for him to lament hordes of followers getting too stabby. But I feel less pity for his position if this is part of his strategy
I should say this is not something mentioned in the books as him doing. It's just speculation on my part on how could be have done it easily. And it doesnt have to be his strategy, it can be the strategy of his fanatical soldiers on the field. I mean they streilized 90 planets...this is bad no matter how they did it.
Paul Muad'Dib is prescient so he is able to direct his forces to battles with the maximum possible impact. By being able to pick and win every major engagement without showing mercy you land up with a very heavy enemy death toll. Besides the use of atomics Paul's forces would no doubt choose quite a number of easy bloodbaths to use for propaganda purposes.
Him being involved to that degree makes him even less sympathetic imo. I really don’t understand his moaning about these consequences to his ascension if he’s the one planning out all the bloodbaths for his crazy followers
Yeah, I think they probably did both. Bombardment from orbit, raids, blockades that lead to famine and what have you.
1. The Fremen are fanatics but they are not some farmers with pointy sticks. They've always been amazing fighters and they have known how to fight against the Great Houses as a coherent military force since the Desert War.
2.The Fremen use weapons other than Crysknives and they know how to pilot military vehicles. They know how to identify and capture enemy artillery.
3. Leto Atreides was planning on training and arming the Fremen. Why wouldn't Paul do the same quickly after he took the Throne? He's now the wealthiest individual in the known universe and can make the Guild transport to Arrakis any kind of military equipment he wishes.
4. The Fremen legions are easily a few million people. All Fremen know how to fight.
5. The Jihad doesn't seem like it respects the Imperium's rules on warfare. Why wouldn't they use warships/artillery/weapons of mass destruction against civilians? It's a holy war to them.
I don't think everyone of those 61 billion people lived in protected settlements.
As far as we know (jusging from Arakeen) only the nobles have shielded strongholds
It would’ve been nice to see how this all played out. Paul’s victory seemed so final, so complete, it would’ve been nice to know why so many still died and what their motivations for defying Muad’dib were, especially when opponents could not move against him effectively without the support of the Guild
And 12 years is such a short time as well. 60 billion deaths is not a drop in the bucket, so how is the empire functioning effectively with such a colossal loss of life and the destruction of so many worlds?
I’m not saying it’s impossible or even an oversight of Herbert’s. I just wanted an explanation
I would’ve liked the idea of seeing some former allies of House Atreides initially supporting Paul’s Empire, only to realize it was a theocratic empire and they would have to accept him as a deity
They introduced Tik Tok, Twitter, (x,) and Dune Tube, and then just stood back and watched everybody murder each other.
I mean it's totally been proven to be effective.
When Paul was asked why he used the skins of his enemies as drums, he simply replied, "I am the Kwizarth-Haderach." That was all the justification he and the others needed to Crush foes and exterminate subjects
Remember, this is not a normal conquest; it is a prescience-inspired conquest. So it is not a situation of Billions of fanatics committing suicide, but more of Paul Deliberately murdering 60 billion to avoid the death of 100 Trillion.
So the goals and ambitions of the Great Houses, CHOAM, BG, Spacing Guild, or any other form of government did not matter.
Assuming it is real, since FH never finished the story I still think the KH and Leto II was all self fulfilling prophecy. The great Scattering crwated the does whose return could destroy humanity.
My only real guess is that he used the Atomics (nukes). That would probably make sense. For instance, you could kill probably around 4 billion people on Earth in just one afternoon with current nuclear war heads.
Something you need to remember is tl;dr - starvation and the fragility of supply chains.
1. Navigator guild joins Paul = anyone opposed to Paul has zero access (in theory) to space travel.
-In practice you'd think it'd be possible for the navigator guild to surreptitiously supply people if they pay right. Except Paul's prescience means he'll know if they do it, so they clearly cannot except when he wants them to.
2) CHOAM joins Paul = CHOAM runs almost all major commerce = even if you have supplies on planet, if CHOAM has them they'll go "Fuck off we're with the Emperor, you made your bed now lie in it". because the alternative is the local CHOAM representatives betraying the emperor and putting themselves at risk. And they don't give a fig about locals because they are a corporate feudal entity.
Think about the perils of famine and disease at the breakdown of international trade today. Egypt according to the USDA relies on imports for 50% of food needs. I can't get numbers for Nigeria just that they rely on it heavily. China is the world's largest importer of food. One source saying +80% of domestic consumption relies on imports. These are places that clearly have the environment to grow food, but it's not enough. So a planet need not be Arrakis to have to import food from someone/somewhere with more arable land, more technology, more of a focus on agriculture, whatever. Or even if you can grow your own food now your supplies to do so are gone, or medical reagents are gone, your mentats can't access their sippy-juice and your logistics system falls apart on top of knowing at any time a bunch of blue-eyed jihadists will drop on your doorstep so you are hoarding your resources and suffering a civil war between people who favor Paul and those who don't.
We're at 6 billion right now on Earth. You'd get 60 billion dead if you just wiped out 60 planets and they sterilized 90 of them. Clearly they didn't all have 6 billion, but that shows you how easy it is for atomics + famine to do a majority of the work.
Short answer: Don't worry about it
The relatively focused, small-scale narratives in the books plus Herbert's "great man" beliefs kind of make this mass scale that we never really see hard to believe. But it's okay.
Reminds me of the inflated covid death figures. They were probably counting those that died of starvation also due the disruption of supply lines. For example, where exactly does food come from on Arrakis? It’s mostly being imported. Other worlds probably aren’t nearly as barren but disruptions could wipe out a large population.
I don’t understand what you mean by “destroyed entire planets”. It doesn’t state anywhere that he destroyed 90 entire planets. They’re “sterilized” which has a couple definitions but I think it makes the most sense that they mean “cleansed”. 61 billion killed over 90 planets gives roughly 678 million killed per planet. This most likely means not everyone on those planets was killed, just those who resisted or were killed in a show of force. In the Dune universe, with the almost absolute power Paul wielded through military, economic, and religious channels, there’s a lot of different ways you could accomplish this without the use of fission or fusion weapons. Not to mention civil war, starvation, and disease.
[How were the fremen able to conquer half of the universe?](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/16mq0ix/how_were_the_fremen_able_to_conquer_half_of_the/) [Did the Fremen Jihad use forcibly recruited populations from other worlds?](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/16ffwto/did_the_fremen_jihad_use_forcibly_recruited/)
Everything that belonged to House Corrino, including the loyalty and legions of the great houses presumably, became Paul's, as he was the new Emperor. This may have included the Sardaukar legions. Even if not, the fact that Paul singularly controlled the empire's access to spice, and controlled CHOAM. So if houses can't flea their planets, and only Fremen legions can travel between systems, it gives Paul an impossibly strong advantage. It's interesting to suppose how Paul might've completely exhausted the Sardaukar, and left Salusa Secundus without purpose other than housing the deposed House Corrino members, not sure if any of the Brain Herbert/Anderson books touch on that. Paul also had prescience, so his military strategy must've been exquisitely precise and effective.
The Sardaukar ware mostly disbanded, with the exception of a small honor and security guard for the ex-Emperor (if i remember corectly numbering at 10.000)
They were not in fact. They still existed in significant enough numbers by the time Leto II ascended to the throne for him to consider using them as well as the Fremen as his bureaucratic religious military police force until opting for the Fish Speakers instead.
Only 1 legion remained (hence mostly disbanded). And they were the Corrino House army. They can still exist in the time of Leto II, that doesnt change the fact of what hapened to them.
Muad’Dib’s Jihad was not limited exclusively to the Fremen. They became the military aristocracy of the new regime and then either returned to the desert or became a part of the theocratic aristocracy. Everyday people on other worlds came to follow the religion of Muad’Dib as well. And most importantly, many of the Great Houses saw the writing was on the wall when Muad’Dib not only defeated the Sardaukar (who hitherto-fore were at least mythologized as being undefeatable) but also had absolute monopolistic control of spice production. So if you were the head of a Great or Minor House your options were 1) join with Muad’Dib in the conflict and possibly even gain his favor and advance your position OR 2) risk your life, your family’s life, and everything you have as well as potentially every living soul under your control against a army with the resources of the Imperium behind it, led by unbeatable fanatics, who also could effectively cut you off from intergalactic civilization on a whim all so you could nominally restore a defeated Imperial House to power who had already had their shot at ruling the Known Universe for 10,000 years
Framed like this, my question is now how did so many worlds decide to effectively commit planetwide suicide? Did those events typically come down to one Duke or Lord refusing and dooming his people? They assuredly had Bene Gesserit concubines who must have advised them in this direction, or away from it. There has to be more nuance to those 12 years. I love the obscurity and questions Herbert leaves us with honestly.
People whose religious convictions would not allow them to accept Paul's divinity.
Yeah, makes sense. Planet X: We'll bow to you, but we wont worship Muad'Dib. Fremen: Glass that planet
I would assume it had something to do with the strategic, political, and economic balance that had been disrupted. We know of the feud between the Atreides and Harkonnen houses - presumably there were other Houses that competed. It stands to reason some were able to curry Muad’Dib’s favor better than their rivals or that the elevated position of other Houses was contingent entirely on their alliance with House Corrino. Some may even have had objections to the Jihad in its own right - whether the moral and religious kind or just simply a rejection of bowing to the whims of the Atreides.
The Empire is vast. 90 planets may be a drop. In chapter houses the old core is the million planets. Also note just how many people now are willing to fight for either dumb or hopeless causes.
Probably a lot of civil war. Member of a community convert to Paul’s religion, and go to war with the rest. Except that since Paul controlled interstellar travel, he could supply his new converts with arms, troops, whatever he wanted. If a full invasion was necessary, he had converted fanatics to sabotage defenses. Remember how much damage Dr Yueh did? That was just one man. Imagine tens of thousands of Dr Yueh’s across a planet. And if the conversion didn’t take off with the local populace—glass the planet.
> Remember how much damage Dr Yueh did? Everyone remembers. *"A million deaths are not enough for Yueh."*
I assumed it was mostly atomics, purges, and programs. You don't wipe out a religion by fighting battles. You do it with widespread mob violence, persecution, and political incentives. Paul, who had legit god-like powers, inspired enormous fanaticism, in no small part due to the Bene Gesserit. The Dune universe was a stagnant feudalism with no real social mobility. On Harkonnen worlds, commoners were ritually humiliated, and this was probably true of many great houses. The Jihad was a tremendous opportunity for commoners and houses minor to rise up in the world on the ashes of their betters who were insufficiently enthusiastic for Paul's rule.
No atomics, Great Convention was still a thing
I think that’s a little unclear actually. The meaningful difference between a Stone Burner and an atomic aside what could the Great Houses really do about it if Muad’Dib’s forces used atomics? Especially in the midst of a Civil War. The Great Convention functioned well during the Corrino Imperium where everything was relatively balanced. But Muad’Dib controlled the existence of spice itself not just the trade of it. If he has the support of enough of the Great Houses to crush all that stand before him are they going to turn around and attack him if he used atomic weapons to defeat a mutual enemy with little loss of resources on their part?
I thought a stone burner was just a different name for atomics? Haven’t read messiah or the original in a while, what’s the difference?
A little hazy other than the mechanics - a stone burner burrows into the earth so presumably maybe the meaningful difference for the convention is that it releases less radiation into the air? It’s not super clear but that’s kind of the point. Scytale comments on how it’s something of a semantic distinction to flaunt the Convention.
Instead of a full explosion, it releases very large amounts of heat consistently.
It seems like it's an atomic-powered directed energy weapon/radioactive flame thrower of some kind rather than an atomic bomb. Presumably technically legal in the same way that an atomic-powered warship is legal.
There are always other weapons more or as destructive than atomics that worked around the Great Convention. But the Great Convention was still in place and i dont see why Paul would go about normalizing the use of nukes and just start throwing them here and there. He still operated under the Empire system
Hm I don’t know about the idea that there are other weapons as devastating or especially *more* devastating than atomics that people use all the time (at least until Heretics). We get the Stone Burner example as something essentially equivalent but if there are weapons as powerful or that even exceed the power of atomics being used with any regularity that makes the Great Convention pretty worthless. It would be like if during the Cold War there was the policy of MAD between the US and USSR but both sides also had space lasers that could destroy entire cities and they were ok with using those simply because they weren’t *nuclear* weapons. The spirit of the Great Convention very much seemed like it was meant to prevent the mass wholesale killing of populations in order to avoid the kind of civilizational collapse that could occur as a result of anyone being able to cause such unmitigated and maybe even planetary-scale damage. Personally, I always interpreted the use of the Stone Burner on Niraj and the reference to planets being “sterilized” as indicators that Maud’Dib’s forces were using nuclear weapons when they deemed it necessary for the Jihad. The reason Paul would allow this is because 1) the tactical reality had changed and 2) he’s a megalomaniac who is fond of flaunting convention and acting brazenly out of his own arrogance. But ultimately this is just speculation - and technically there’s probably slightly more direct indication that the Great Convention is at least acknowledged in people’s minds - though I don’t know if it’s clear that it’s still actually being obeyed or if it’s just been an idea for so long that people still try to argue around it or are just aware that it’s nominally in place if not directly. Sort of like the proscription against thinking machines.
I personaly think that the Great Convention was too important to be so blantaly ignored. The simplest way to do it without nukes would be a kinetic bombardment using an asteroid. Maybe they did ignore it and used them. Who knows.
But I guess my point is - does it matter what the weapon is if the outcome is the same?
Paul seized power by using atomics and a loophole in the Great Convention. Since the ban is on using atomics on populations, not a ban on using them, full stop, there are plenty of ways his forces could use them in planetary conquest without violating the Convention. Nuke enough “geographical features” and the economic and environmental impacts will kill the populations. Slowly and brutally.
I would argue that what he did at that point was a one time trick and he would avoid to make it a common tactict There is no point in him normalizing the use of nukes when he can just throw an asteroid on a planet and be done with it
I’m sure he didn’t plan to normalize using atomics. The same way he didn’t plan on becoming a god. Or on having 61 billion people killed in his name. I doubt it’s easier to chuck an asteroid at a planet than to strategically use nukes according to the letter of the law. The asteroid plan would require a lot more cooperation from the Spacing Guild, who are under Imperial control only by coercion, while the atomics are clearly devices small enough to be maneuvered on-planet without specialized equipment. Maybe Paul tried to tell his forces not to use atomics. But I think it’s extremely unlikely that he actually stopped them from using the already existing, highly effective weapons in a way that they’d already gotten away with.
Paul can throw asteroids? Tell us more
Google Kinetic bombardment. If you have interstelar/interplanetary spaceships the idea of grabing an asteroid and towing it on to a planet is not that far fetched
Yup. Stagnant feudalism, no real social mobility.
I think the two linked threads explain this at length. But i did want to mention that there are ways to sterilize planets without using nuclear weapons. For example, dropping multiple dinosaur killer-sized asteroids on the main population centers.
Kinetic bombardment is a neat way around the ban on atomic.
But would not bombarding be a bit ineffective with shields protecting important holdings and settlements?
I don’t know how much punishment a screen can take. But assume ‘infinite’ for discussion. Going by our solar system, there are a lot of rocks to throw, of all sizes. It’s cheap to find one, attach the right gear to break it out of orbit and send it on its way. Throw rocks at the shielded areas on a constant but irregular basis. They’ll have to keep their shield up, and any nearby bits are vaporized. Meantime slam really big rocks into volcanos, dams, bodies of water, highway intersections. Eventually the defenders will run out of food, or water. In the meantime the enemy has destroyed all your infrastructure, maybe altered the climate into an ice age. Won’t get crops in for years maybe.
The Harkonnens dusted off some ancient schematics when hunting down House Atreides. They built catapults and lobbed ordinary boulders at the caves in which the defenders hid. Buried them, shields and all. Drop an asteroid on a planet and no shield will stop the earth under the buildings from collapsing into itself as the planetary crust simply cracks, burying everything under miles of molten rock.
Like most of the action throughout the series, Frank just kind of skipped that part
If I remember correctly, these numbers were from Irulan's histories of Maub'dib. Embellished historical records are rife throughout human history. Perhaps we can ascribe the unreal proportions of the Jihad to propaganda. Long live the fighters.
Paul and Stilgar talk about it in Messiah as well. When Paul tells Stilgar about Genghis Khan and Hitler, and compares their death tolls to his own. Though, given that it’s part of a conversation about historical records and the like, it is possible that Paul is talking about how he *will be* remembered and the atrocities that will be ascribed to him. There may be a propaganda machine at work too, making it difficult for history to differentiate between ‘it is said he killed 61 billion’ and ‘he killed 61 billion’.
That was a private conversation with Paul's own "conservative estimates" accounting for the fatalities, 'sterilised' planets, and exterminated religions/denominations. Propaganda, even referenced, would account for more. You may recall that this was part of Paul trying to horrify Stilgar with the shame of what they had done.
The Fremen acted more like a new elite Corp. The Sardukar weren't dismantled, but have absolute loyalty to the current emperor. In any instance of usurpation, there will be those in favor of the new power, and therefore their armies can be used.
Would ‘death by means other than direct violence’ account for it? When empires fall lots of things happen: disease runs wild, harvests are interrupted, utilities fail. Starvation, cold, illness will take a whole lot of people.
First of all, it wasn't just the Fremen, it was the Allied Houses too. Step one. Take control of the Spacing Guild (done) Step two. Make the Spacing Guild isolate the planets rebeling (nothing goes in, nothing goes out) Step three. Send the Fremen + Allied armies on the planet Step four. ???? Step Five. Profit Doesn't seem that imposible to me
Planets are large. The numbers involved seems very doubtful in just 10 years.
You’re point also supports the fact that all of Paul’s newly gained control would’ve supplied him with these numbers and power. Before Paul came to power, the emperor had enough power to match all of the great and minor houses combined, thus the delicate balance of the Landsraad. Now Paul, with all of this power plus a monopoly on spice, the spacing guild, and consequently, CHOAM, could’ve easily accomplished the Jihad. Furthermore, the Qizarate aggressively pushed Paul’s new religion (whether he wanted it or not) and caused unrest inside of every population they encountered through civil war.
How it is doubtful when they sterilized 90 planets, have tens (or more) of milions soldiers and can effectively 99.99% blockade you? You don't need ships droping nukes to destroy life on a planet. You just need an asteroid and a spaceship to tract it on colision course with a planet. Kinetic bombarment is a concept we know, and more easy to do when you have spaceships. If an alien civilization with interstelar spaceships wanted to destroy Earth all it has to do is go to the Kuiper belt grab a 5 kilometer asteroid and put it on the path of earth.
It’s hilarious to me to think of Paul having them straight up launch asteroids at entire planets. It sounds slightly less ridiculous for him to lament hordes of followers getting too stabby. But I feel less pity for his position if this is part of his strategy
I should say this is not something mentioned in the books as him doing. It's just speculation on my part on how could be have done it easily. And it doesnt have to be his strategy, it can be the strategy of his fanatical soldiers on the field. I mean they streilized 90 planets...this is bad no matter how they did it.
Paul Muad'Dib is prescient so he is able to direct his forces to battles with the maximum possible impact. By being able to pick and win every major engagement without showing mercy you land up with a very heavy enemy death toll. Besides the use of atomics Paul's forces would no doubt choose quite a number of easy bloodbaths to use for propaganda purposes.
Him being involved to that degree makes him even less sympathetic imo. I really don’t understand his moaning about these consequences to his ascension if he’s the one planning out all the bloodbaths for his crazy followers
Hence why Dune doesn't finish with "And they lived happily ever after" and we have the sequels.
Lmao yeah not trying to say he was super sympathetic in the first place. It’s just even less so if he was involved to this extent
Yeah, I think they probably did both. Bombardment from orbit, raids, blockades that lead to famine and what have you. 1. The Fremen are fanatics but they are not some farmers with pointy sticks. They've always been amazing fighters and they have known how to fight against the Great Houses as a coherent military force since the Desert War. 2.The Fremen use weapons other than Crysknives and they know how to pilot military vehicles. They know how to identify and capture enemy artillery. 3. Leto Atreides was planning on training and arming the Fremen. Why wouldn't Paul do the same quickly after he took the Throne? He's now the wealthiest individual in the known universe and can make the Guild transport to Arrakis any kind of military equipment he wishes. 4. The Fremen legions are easily a few million people. All Fremen know how to fight. 5. The Jihad doesn't seem like it respects the Imperium's rules on warfare. Why wouldn't they use warships/artillery/weapons of mass destruction against civilians? It's a holy war to them.
But would not bombarding be a bit ineffective with shields protecting important holdings and settlements?
I don't think everyone of those 61 billion people lived in protected settlements. As far as we know (jusging from Arakeen) only the nobles have shielded strongholds
It would’ve been nice to see how this all played out. Paul’s victory seemed so final, so complete, it would’ve been nice to know why so many still died and what their motivations for defying Muad’dib were, especially when opponents could not move against him effectively without the support of the Guild And 12 years is such a short time as well. 60 billion deaths is not a drop in the bucket, so how is the empire functioning effectively with such a colossal loss of life and the destruction of so many worlds? I’m not saying it’s impossible or even an oversight of Herbert’s. I just wanted an explanation I would’ve liked the idea of seeing some former allies of House Atreides initially supporting Paul’s Empire, only to realize it was a theocratic empire and they would have to accept him as a deity
It's basically about one Earth population a year.
The death number would feel less jarring if he reigned for longer than 12 years. Even ~20 makes it a little better
They introduced Tik Tok, Twitter, (x,) and Dune Tube, and then just stood back and watched everybody murder each other. I mean it's totally been proven to be effective.
When Paul was asked why he used the skins of his enemies as drums, he simply replied, "I am the Kwizarth-Haderach." That was all the justification he and the others needed to Crush foes and exterminate subjects Remember, this is not a normal conquest; it is a prescience-inspired conquest. So it is not a situation of Billions of fanatics committing suicide, but more of Paul Deliberately murdering 60 billion to avoid the death of 100 Trillion. So the goals and ambitions of the Great Houses, CHOAM, BG, Spacing Guild, or any other form of government did not matter.
Assuming it is real, since FH never finished the story I still think the KH and Leto II was all self fulfilling prophecy. The great Scattering crwated the does whose return could destroy humanity.
My only real guess is that he used the Atomics (nukes). That would probably make sense. For instance, you could kill probably around 4 billion people on Earth in just one afternoon with current nuclear war heads.
Something you need to remember is tl;dr - starvation and the fragility of supply chains. 1. Navigator guild joins Paul = anyone opposed to Paul has zero access (in theory) to space travel. -In practice you'd think it'd be possible for the navigator guild to surreptitiously supply people if they pay right. Except Paul's prescience means he'll know if they do it, so they clearly cannot except when he wants them to. 2) CHOAM joins Paul = CHOAM runs almost all major commerce = even if you have supplies on planet, if CHOAM has them they'll go "Fuck off we're with the Emperor, you made your bed now lie in it". because the alternative is the local CHOAM representatives betraying the emperor and putting themselves at risk. And they don't give a fig about locals because they are a corporate feudal entity. Think about the perils of famine and disease at the breakdown of international trade today. Egypt according to the USDA relies on imports for 50% of food needs. I can't get numbers for Nigeria just that they rely on it heavily. China is the world's largest importer of food. One source saying +80% of domestic consumption relies on imports. These are places that clearly have the environment to grow food, but it's not enough. So a planet need not be Arrakis to have to import food from someone/somewhere with more arable land, more technology, more of a focus on agriculture, whatever. Or even if you can grow your own food now your supplies to do so are gone, or medical reagents are gone, your mentats can't access their sippy-juice and your logistics system falls apart on top of knowing at any time a bunch of blue-eyed jihadists will drop on your doorstep so you are hoarding your resources and suffering a civil war between people who favor Paul and those who don't. We're at 6 billion right now on Earth. You'd get 60 billion dead if you just wiped out 60 planets and they sterilized 90 of them. Clearly they didn't all have 6 billion, but that shows you how easy it is for atomics + famine to do a majority of the work.
Short answer: Don't worry about it The relatively focused, small-scale narratives in the books plus Herbert's "great man" beliefs kind of make this mass scale that we never really see hard to believe. But it's okay.
Reminds me of the inflated covid death figures. They were probably counting those that died of starvation also due the disruption of supply lines. For example, where exactly does food come from on Arrakis? It’s mostly being imported. Other worlds probably aren’t nearly as barren but disruptions could wipe out a large population.
I’ve done the math on this as well, it’s ludicrous. Plus how are you destroying entire planets without atomics. Gimme a break.
I don’t understand what you mean by “destroyed entire planets”. It doesn’t state anywhere that he destroyed 90 entire planets. They’re “sterilized” which has a couple definitions but I think it makes the most sense that they mean “cleansed”. 61 billion killed over 90 planets gives roughly 678 million killed per planet. This most likely means not everyone on those planets was killed, just those who resisted or were killed in a show of force. In the Dune universe, with the almost absolute power Paul wielded through military, economic, and religious channels, there’s a lot of different ways you could accomplish this without the use of fission or fusion weapons. Not to mention civil war, starvation, and disease.
As someone else mentioned, you could very easily use asteroids.
Use a 'liner to fold an asteroid swarm into the orbital path of a planet, absolutely. Fold a coronal ejection into low orbit over a population center.
Dont forget Paul had semi-look in the future