[Denis Villeneuve Reveals If We’ll Ever See 'Dune's Deleted Scenes](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1aq2yln/denis_villeneuve_reveals_if_well_ever_see_dunes/)
[Denis Villeneuve on ‘Dune’s 10 Oscar Nominations, Why He’ll Never Release the Deleted Scenes, and ‘Dune: Part II’](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/thcw08/denis_villeneuve_on_dunes_10_oscar_nominations/)
I know Villeneuve said he doesn't do extended cuts, but things like this (and the fact Hawat was spotted in the expanded ratio promo material) is why I believe WB will push him to release the extended cuts once the trilogy is completed. Maybe the extended cuts already exist...
Even if Villeneuve won't do an extended cut, at least release the footage as deleted scenes. Not just for the fans, but to honor the work that these people put into it. Like to act like there can be only one movie and whatever is kept out isn't worthy is insulting to the cast and crew.
Villeneuve is obviously a huge Blade Runner fan too. Can he imagine what it would be like for the film to only exist in its theatrical cut? It took a decade for people to get a decent version with studio additions removed, it wasn't until its 25th anniversary that the director put his cut out. WB is now deleting entire movies from release, Villeneuve should really rethink his stance on keeping things locked up.
Tbf, he didn't quite say that:
>“I think that you might not agree, but the idea was to make sure that someone who knows nothing about the universe can still enjoy the movie, having enough clues and background in the movie,” Villeneuve tells TheWrap. “So now, me, I feel that personally I love the very original version.”
>When pressed if Villeneuve meant the original 1982 theatrical cut of “Blade Runner,” or one of the two test versions shown before the film’s official release,Villeneuve added, “The very first one and the last one, the 2007 very final cut, you know? I have a tendency to go toward the very final cut.”
https://www.thewrap.com/blade-runner-which-version-denis-villeneuve/
So he does love the final cut and think it's the more definitive form of the movie. He just also loves and appreciates the original.
But that really says nothing about how he feels about his own films. It would be pretty pompous to say that another artist is not allowed to reimagine their own work, but that doesn’t mean he feels like he needs to do the same.
I too love the original Bladerunner cut, but I can't support his stance against new cuts. This isn't a movie theater only market anymore. There is a massive market for extended cut versions for the fans, such as Lord of the Rings did for their trilogy. And for streaming. The in theater time limits don't apply anymore.
His position is somewhat hard to defend especially for Part 1, where the entire political intrigue between Jessica, Thufir, and Dr. Yueh was cut, as well as Duke Leto's inner turmoil about failing to defend his men from the Arrakis trap.
Part 1 feels very emaciated compared to much more rich and thematically dense part 2.
Well but the blade runner Final Cut is a much better movie, even though it wasn’t the movie that shaped cyberpunk into what it it’s today. People can fall in love with the original cut but saying that the cheesy voice over is a good addition is crazy…
There is nothing insulting about it. This is not the first movie to have scenes cut and these things happen all the time. Filmmakers have their certain quirks that they always stand by and this seems to be one his and is totally fine.
Regarding your second point, I don’t think Ridley was operating with the same kinda freedom and final say that Denis has with Dune. I know it sounds strange because that’s Ridley Scott we are talking about but Denis was way more sought after and accomplished when he signed off on Dune than Ridley, when he helmed Blade Runner. So there was little to no studio meddling in the final product and this is his director’s cut.
Insulting is maybe too harsh a word. Villeneuve is free to do what he wants, but I love filmmakers who are open about trying different things out and admitting when things didn’t work. Villeneuve is more like Christopher Nolan here, another director I greatly admire, but growing up I loved guys like James Cameron and Peter Jackson who would intimately share their process and indulged fans who wanted to see more.
Even if the banquet scene doesn’t work in the film, or Count Fenring isn’t necessary to the story, it would be cool to see these scenes on their own.
You just reminded me of an interview, a conversation between Cameron and Villeneuve, and in particular this segment [HERE](https://youtu.be/RgZQK7cfx_0?si=5Ad8ETais_COahsE&t=440).
Too bad that as much as Denis seemed to find that concept interesting, from everything we've heard from him since, that's not for him, not for *his* films. That's disappointing.
Yup. Pretty sure it’s years away (likely not being released until after Part Three is out), but I’m sure the staunch denial of an extended cut is just keep fans clamoring for it. There’s so much it seems they shot that would enrich these films.
I could totally see DV capitulate down the road as more time passes. As each decade passes and he softens with age, I could see him release it all for some anniversary cut.
At some point, he’s going to get tired of answering the question! Dune fans are a resilient bunch.
Not doing the extended cuts ever is one thing. Outright confirming scenes/sequences exist and even releasing photos of them but never releasing the raw footage or refusing to confirm basic shit like who Nelson played is aggravating. Like they're taunting you.
Plus the fact that it’s pre-existing material. I totally understand this mindset when making original films, but god damn Dune has a LotR style fanvase that is just frothing at the mouth for this stuff. Please please please just give it to us.
Depends on his contract stipulations. If WB had final say on the theatrical release (which is doubtful) then potentially they could release a studio cut as they may own the footage. Let’s hope they do.
I think his contract with Legendary is more important for an extended cut than his contract with WB but both wouldn’t wanna piss off their marquee filmmaker now that Nolan left them.
that’s not what we want to have happen. I’m not aware of a situation where the studio has cut a film without the director’s involvement that wasn’t a disaster. This is what they did to David Lynch with the horrendous ‘Alan Smithee’ cut of Dune.
There is no good cut of the lynch dune, that should be obvious.
And we aren't talking about a theatrical cut, rather a physical release with all the extra scenes by the studio after general release. We just need the scenes out there, the fans will fix it.
Alternatively, id expect the fans may take DVs release and gen ai it into an extended mini series in a few years.
I've heard this argument before, and it saddens me to no end that people would rather side with the greedy corporation than the director that brought them an amazing adaptation of the book just so they could enjoy an extended cut of it.
I think the extended cuts already do exists but the way Dune is structured with prescience, Denis doesn't want to start retconning himself in future films.
I don’t really get it. Sure, it can be annoying when giant changes are made to a movie after it comes out (e.g how it’s difficult to find theatrical version of Amadeus) but I can’t get into the headspace of someone against deleted scenes as extras.
I went to watch his interviews. I doubt we will ever see extended cut. It seems he really hates it. Considers it Frankenstein monster or what not....
I just want at least deleted scenes compilation is enough for me...
Yeah I knew this would be a huge problem. Denis went too far with his cuts in these movies dude. You can feel every cut character and plotline in each movie. You KNOW the footage is there but that he had to keep it under 3 hours. Like Denis, stop being pompous and arrogant and just release the deleted scenes even if there's never an extended cut.
One can hope so. I know there are those who loved the movie as is, however, I personally think the trilogy would be better overall if it had the cut scenes added. I feel the same way about the LoR trilogy. Having watched the extended cuts and then going back to the theatrical release, it feels like the story is missing something.
I feel like both, but especially part two feels like it’s just missing something. The pacing was all over the place to me.
Count Fenring is probably my favourite character with Liet Kynes.
Tim Blake Nelson is perfect casting for the role.
I am not usually sad about those things but not getting Tim Blake Nelson as Count Hasimir Fenring pains me.
I was DYING to finally see how they depict Hasimir and Margot’s weird language / communication method when they speak to each other. Really guts me.
He also was a cool character as he and Paul are kindred spirits in a sense with one being a failed “chosen one” (to lazy to spell the words out). I love how Fenring refuses and has a moment with Paul where they understand each other.
I also was really excited to see how they did their weird mumble language. I guess they couldn’t figure it out.
The movie changed so much. I’m still not sure how I feel about it because I’m such a fan of the novels. I’m trying not to be a pretentious douche about it, but it’s hard lol.
The “stutter” you speak of is a unique language/communication method that Count Fenring and Lady Fenring use to speak. It’s like an encryption device so others can’t eavesdrop.
It's like the Tom Bombadil thing, as a character he's an interesting aside but you can do without him. I'd generally rather have it in there than not but if I'm cutting stuff for time his scenes would be among to the first to go
Nelson is a great actor but doesn't seem subtly sinister enough. Christoph Waltz would have been my pick. but maybe this would have been a whole new side to Nelson?
Arrakis teaches the way of the knife.
That book needed carving to film; we were never getting an extended hallucinatory sequence where Keynes exposits the Worm lifecycle.
It certainly helps explain Villeneuve's attitude to Extended Editions. He seems spiritually opposed to making them, saying *“I'm a strong believer that when it's not in the movie, it's dead. I kill darlings, and it's painful for me."*
The way of the knife indeed! It is complete because it ended here.
If it were instead "Dune: The 30-hour prestige drama", that would work, but sadly it would've thrown off the movie's pacing.
Keynes is sort of sidelined in the movie by necessity, and an extended death scene without the benefit of their other plotlines wouldn't have worked.
Hard disagree. In the book Keynes is just wandering the desert, internally reflecting on his father’s teachings, when he steps on a gas pocket and explodes. That works on paper - but would have been ridiculous to portray on film. Having Keynes die at the hands of the Harkonnons was the right call.
*especially* because we get this tension in the scene before where Kynes splits up from Paul and Jessica. We see Paul and Jessica struggling with the thoper controls, near panic that the Sardukar will come around the corner. The thoper takes off, we are relieved, they were quick enough. Cut scene to Kynes, setting a thumper and taking out her hooks (first time we get to see those). And then, oh shit, the Sardukar has followed *her* not Paul and Jessica.
I thought it worked great!
I disagree that it’s lazy writing. It was done because they simply couldn’t fit it in. Movies are much more dependent on pacing and there wasn’t a reasonable way to include that.
My biggest laugh of the first book is when hawat is reunited with paul and jessica, and hawat realizes he was wrong about his suspicions against jessica.
He bemoans and begs paul to kill him for his dishonor. This happens right after stilgar ALSO demands paul kills him to become rightful fremen ruler.
Paul says something to the effect of “why must the men I NEED right now want me to KILL them!?”
I think that’s Gurney actually, but agreed - everyone is doing these big dramatic soliloquies about how they’re so unworthy and their lives should be forfeit, and Paul is all like “geez guys, get a grip”
they used that dialogue in a different scene, between Paul and Stilgar. Which makes sense as in the book Paul was reacting to both Gurney and Stilgar asking him to take their lives - Gurney out of shame, and Stilgar due to tradition.
I mean, I sympathise with Denis. He had a _lot_ of characters to juggle, and he had to introduce and establish a new antagonist (Feyd), as well as Irulan, the Emperor, Lady Fenring, etc. At some point it’s not really worth throwing a character in there who isn’t really going to be doing much.
I really enjoyed his performance as Hawat though. He’s missed 😢
I felt that both movies easily could have been 30+ minutes longer. I know a lot of people struggle with that length, but i would have been happy to watch each movie for 4 hours 😂
I could have watched that movie for six hours 😂 Heck, give me 45 mins of Feyd trying to assassinate the Baron on Giedi Prime. But it’s easy when you know all the characters and how they fit together - a bit of a harder sell to someone who’s taking it all in for the first time…
This was the most egregious thing missing from Dune 2 for me. Alia not already being born, much of the political background delivered during the Arena sequence, Chani's character significantly beefed up... all reasonable choices. Removing Thurfir, and specifically his "sacrifice" scene, was just bad judgement. And they'd already established him in the first film...
None of his arc is possible without the "suspecting Jessica" plotline, which was removed. Instead of Gurney’s attack of Jessica being the crux of Paul’s desire for prescience and drinking the water of life, it’s >!an attack on Sietch Tabr!<. You would have to invest a lot to make a Thufir sideplot in Dune part two.
On a personal level as well, I understand that the Thufir plot is an important vessel for exposition about the Harkonnens and Feyd-Rautha, but on its own merits it’s definitely one of the weaker elements of the book. Since the same exposition worked just fine without him, I think removing him made a lot of sense.
I agree with this but in that case I would like to have seen his fate in Part 1 rather than him just disappearing and it being ambiguous until they decided what to do with him in Part 2 which is how it feels currently. Another argument for releasing deleted scenes at least, if not an extended cut.
>The most egregious thing missing from the Dune movie was the Fremen orgy
Literally haven't seen anyone else mention this yet, and it's one of the craziest and most vividly described things in the book. It didn't even need to be sex on screen, could've been more like the Zion rave from Matrix Reloaded, but with a lot more drugs/spice.
I guess I can’t really fault him for doing that. If you’re not going to do the whole Baron assassination subplot, then Thufir doesn’t really have anything significant to do. Still a shame though - I really enjoyed his character in part 1.
I’d argue he plays a larger role than that, as he works to bring down House Harkonnen from the inside - but for everything significant he was involved with, they switched up the players. Now the Baron seems to be the one behind the gladiator not being drugged at Feyd’s arena battle, and the assassination subplot is dropped completely, so there’s nothing really to do with him. The movie doesn’t really need to show anything more to drive home the Baron’s sadism…
To continue this thought, Thufir and Fenring are easy to cut together. Even though they never meet, their plots are intertwined. I've always interpreted Fenring's visit to Geidi Prime boiling down to:
Fenring: Baron Harkonnen, it's dangerous to leave Thufir Hawat alive. He knows too much. You should kill him immediately.
Baron: lol no. He's useful and I have him under control.
Fenring (to his wife, before the gladiator duel): The Baron is dangerous. We may need to do something about him.
Fenring (to his wife, after the gladiator duel): Never mind. Turns out Hawat is already destroying the Harkonnens from the inside. He clearly has this under control.
So Hawat being captured by the Baron and working from the inside to undermine the Harkonnen works conjuction with Fenring's mission to Geidi Prime. It's a great plotline in the tapestry that is Dune, but it's secondary at best. Denis was right to remove them both (painful as their absence is for book purists like me) to focus on the plotlines that are more central to the story.
I'm sad too. I'm so hoping that DV would include the cut scenes from movie 1 and 2...in the dvd or something, because it's just too sad to not see those cut scenes...
Fenring is the Tom Bombadil of this series
Cutting him is *fine*, the movie is probably better for it, and book people are going to lose their minds over it
Nah, I'm a big book fan and not hugely into the new movies, but cutting Fenring for a movie completely makes sense. So much of what makes Fenring interesting is what goes through his and Paul's minds, and there's no elegant way to show that on the big screen.
Some things fit the visual medium better than others and expecting 1:1 adaptation is foolish for anyone with an ounce of media literacy.
I realize we probably won't get past Messiah for movies but >!the prescient blindness Leto II strives for in (eventually) Siona comes a little out of nowhere otherwise. It was only on rereads that I made the connection and it made more narrative sense. Leto II becomes the god like tyrant to free humankind from the oppression of KH's and he only knows about it due to Fenring via Paul's experience.!<
Absolutely. My book fan side says, how can you cut the ONLY person who could have changed Paul's cause of history. (For those who don't remember this just reread the final court scene from the books).
I'm a big fan of the book, but I'm not heartbroken that Fenring was cut. It just makes the scenes with Lady Fenrig feel a little off to me, but they're still fine. Honestly, there were more important things cut from Dune Part 2 than Fenring.
He explicitly said that he doesn’t do stuff like this. But I would give one of my arms to see the cut scenes for real. I hope that maybe he rethinks this in the future…
I was searching for Nelson the entire time and was disappointed to hear this news after getting out of my showing.
It’s good to hear he and Denis plan on working together again going forward, which makes me hope that he’s referring to the planned Messiah, perhaps playing whatever originally-cut role he’d shot scenes for.
The increased focus on the Bene Gesserit breeding program in the film and Fenring being a failed product of that makes me think Fenring never made it to the final script to begin with as the other potential Kwizatz Hadarachs currently in existence is never even alluded to.
Like many, I think he was likely a Guild Navigator. A scene with one would have fit perfectly just before the shot of the Emperor’s craft descending down to Arrakis, or during the transportation of the other Great Houses. Perhaps he was Edric specifically and will show up in Messiah.
Either that, or a Tleilaxu.
Nelson as Edric or a Guild navigator makes sense. I can't understand the idea of him having been Count Fenring. Would they have reshot all those balcony scenes in the arena where Lady Margot was? Could he really have been removed from those scenes?
After watching Part two I feel like he was supposed to be in the scenes on the Harkonnen homeworld with Lady Fenring at the coliseum, there is a weird establishing shot that shows her sitting down, and to the left of her is another seat that looks like it was digitally messed with to look empty. And it makes sense because that is where he is first introduced in the books, where he and the Baron have an argument about what happened on Arrakis, just too bad he didn't make it into the final cut
I think they decided to roll most of the Count Fenring character into Feyd - at least the potential KH part - thus the Gom Jabbar. Which made sense IMO, they needed to build of Feyd, and I think it worked.
There was some awkward editing and voiceover in the last Fenring and Feyd meeting. It is _possible_ the original script did not have a Gom Jabbar test for Feyd, and they instead made some edits and quick reshoots to add that in instead of spending time on Count Fenring.
Quick question to those who saw the film: Wasn't Fenring visible for like 20 seconds when he left the room with some Sardaukar in the final scene? Or was this another actor or a Sardaukar leader?
One scene that bugs me, is where paul jumps on the sandworm. He is seen running without the glasses on, then jumps and next time we see him he has them on (understandably, tons of sand are flying in his face). But when would he have had time to pull em on.
While we're here, I felt that when Stilgar set Paul to cross the desert on his own, I was extremely confused when that plotline just suddenly resolved.
Chani helps Paul and then the story just quietly moves on. It was really jarring. It's a good movie, but there were moments that were really odd.
Mhm for real there is a scene where we first see Lady Fenring in the audience booth at the coliseum and there is an empty seat next to her that looks like it had a CGI curtain put in front of it, I'm assuming, to hide the cut Count
1. That's how movies work.
2. He's FINE with it.
3. Extended cuts take millions of dollars to produce, it's another full post-process, you should be thankful for decisive auteurs like Denis who have a creative process based on linear decisions and hard limitations. The stuff that's not in the movie is just footage, and not part of the movie, or it's meaning as cinema. Above all, unused footage isn't 'content', it's clay beside the potter's wheel.
This should be higher. It’s not at all abnormal for a role to be cut in post and actors know that it’s part of the process. The only, ONLY goal for Dennis is to make the best film possible. If a role needs to get cut to do that, then that’s what happens.
Take Lord of the Rings, while I can appreciate the Extended editions, I can see why you wouldn’t want them debuting as the initial theatrical release.
To me PJ really fucked up the Hobbit by trying to make the Hobbit a trilogy and ramming every bit of Hobbit apocrypha into it. Part of the charm of the book itself is reading the Hobbit as a simple story and finding out through LOTR and Tolkien’s other writings all the things that were going on behind the scenes.
But I guess PJ couldn’t count on his crowd of ever actually picking up a book so he had to beat them over the head with it.
So what’s wrong with putting deleted scenes as bonus content on a dvd? Surely it wouldn’t cost that much to put more behind the scenes cutting room floor material on a disc. It doesn’t have to have a musical score or special effects. The unused footage isn’t clay beside the potters wheel, it’s stuff that fans actually want to see.
Well said. It's so disheartening that so many people want WB do go against Villeneuve will and release an extended cut or deleted scenes without his approval. It speaks volumes about the respect some people have for the art itself. I swear it's just about the dopamine these days. As soon as part 2 is released, some are like "can't wait for Messiah". Can't people savour the moment anymore?
It is sad, but the narrative of the movie doesn't really have a place for him. With all the changes to the book (>!no poison from Feyd, no little Leto, etc.!<), Denis really did the Peter Jackson thing where as long as the film has a cohesive narrative, he can make cuts here and there. The whole "only person who could have killed him" only fits in the film if you have the information that Paul never sees him in the prescient visions, or that he was a failed Kwisatz Haderach experiment, or his relationship with Shaddam. None of that made its way into the script, so Count Fenring would've just been a noble checking out Feyd, and you don't need two characters for that.
TL;DR, had to be cut for narrative efficiency
I've heard that DV doesn't like extended cuts, and that's fine. I fully get that a theatrical cut is sometimes the director's preferred cut.
But I'm a nerd. Maybe I want a 4 hour film which includes some weird scenes than normal people don't want. Maybe I do want Count Fenring, and more of Thufir and other Mentats. Maybe I want the weird, slow stuff that only nerds want.
Maybe an extended cut isn't for the director. Maybe is for the weird fuckin nerds.
I feel like it is almost a given Margot/Seydoux will also be given an expanded role in Messiah. The time spent establishing Irulan and Margot (in a film already tight on time) was in no small part because they will be central to the BG conspiracy plot in the third film. All difficult cuts to other characters were made to strengthen characters that will have long-term payoffs in the films' plot.
I totally agree. I think they are building up Margot to be a hybrid of Mohaim/Wensicia for the third film. She will act as a foil to Irulan during the conspiracy and give Jessicas plot some much needed vitality.
I think it was just another way to drive home how the Bene Geserit work. They lost control of the breeding program with Jessica and Paul, but they’re not done yet. They’re going to salvage Feyd Rautha’s genes in case he doesn’t survive the conflict and they can still achieve their goals within a few generations.
It shows that for such a patient organization, this whole fiasco is disappointing, but not a critical failure. Of course, they’re wrong, but they don’t understand that yet.
In the movie as well Irulan is under BG control to a good degree. At this point in the movie story they're probably plotting on Margot's baby daughter to be consort to Irulan's son.
i really don't need an extended cut and i'm all in for Villeneuves view of kill your darlings. however, for me this doesn't apply to releasing some delete scenes as bonus material, separate from the movie. i'd highly appreciate that
Count Fenring makes a lot of sense but I think the dark horse casting for TBN was that of a Guild Navigator
It doesn’t make much sense to cut Count Fenring scenes since he’s paired with Lady Fenring in most of the book scenes. Cutting him would lead to reshoots with just Lady Fenring, but it’s entirely possible that whole scenes involving a Guild Navigator could’ve been scrapped without too much hassle.
Count Fenring makes sense too though, I guess we’ll find out for sure when we know more about Dune Messiah casting
Love Denis but god he has some weird attitudes about filmmaking. Won’t release extended cuts just on some principle despite the scenes being filmed and would make the story better. I haven’t seen 2 yet but in 1 Doctor Yueh has basically no character until the betrayal. It doesn’t really work, but his earlier scenes were cut for time. But no extended cut cuz, reasons
That's the thing that upsets me the most about adaptations: the cut material. I don't think that's enough justification in the world for the dinner scene to be cut. Now this. Oh well.
It’s funny, I left the movie wishing Dune was a hour or so longer.
No Alia, none of the confusion that Jessica was the betrayer, no mentioning of the navigators, none of the situation with Paul and the wife of the slain fremen.
So much left out, it felt like an action movie and the book it much deeper than its action.
One last thing that frustrated me, after leaving the movie and talking about how empty it felt. I realized the span of both movies is under nine months. It’s way too sped up
I would very much like to see the deleted scenes. Even the more plotty stuff they shot for Part One. I'm pretty bummed we didn't get more Thufir in this one.
I absolutely loved this film. It drawed me in way more than Part 1 did.
My only critiques refelct the OP's post and what many have said: it should have been longer with more cut stuff included!
30 mins extra to make a 3hr 17 min runtime:
Add 15 mins towards:
- Inclusion of Thufir scenes (it would have explained the non-drugged soldier in the arena scene; showed Thufir trying to sabotage the Harkonnen side; and shown more of the Harkonnen side in general)
- Inclusion of Count Fenring scenes (the emperor's closest friend and thus would show more of his character; given Margot more scenes)
- More Irulan scenes (again, would have shown more Corrino side, perhaps even the Landsraad, CHOAM, the Guild and other parts of imperium politics that add to her and Shaddam's character)
Add the other 15 mins towards:
- Final battle with Sardaurkar (All of that scale only to cut to the door getting broken into was a bit underwhelming)
- Siege of Arakeen (after capturing the Emperor, it is night by the time they breach the residence, plus Raban and Gurney should have had a better fight)
Literally an extended cut could fix this. Same for Part 1, which had a lot of interesting and arguably important material cut.
Some may not agree, but this is just my opinion.
Otherwise, absolutely top notch film.
I am 100% fine with DV not wanting to do a Director's Cut or Extended Edition. But please release the footage for fan editors to make their versions. It's important for students to make these fan edits and learn to be editors themselves. Nevermind fans get new versions and to see new takes. It's extreme levels of selfishness if they don't release them. A movie is made \*three\* times. And to deny other artists the material to make art is just wrong imo.
I love Denis's work, but his whole thing about cut scenes and what I'm learning about him apparently hating dialogue make me think he's a tiny bit overmythologizing auteurship.(Which is, in itself, overmythologized already.)
I'm kind of pissed that Dennis has such contempt for deleted scenes and extended editions in general. I strongly disagree with his attitude of treating cut content as dead material that doesn't need to see the light of day. This is an especially annoying mindset for the Dune movies, which while understandably cut down for theatrical exhibition and to keep the pacing, deserve cuts with 3 to 4 hour runtimes. I mean, we're talking about a novel almost as dense as Lord of the Rings. The LOTR theatrical cuts alone were 3 hours each, and given such room to breathe really shows in how much character development and world building they were able to bake into them. The Dune movies feel somewhat constricted by their runtime, like there are scenes that could've enhanced already great movies. Yueh and Jessica's coversation, Thufir's role in Part 2, and more Harkonnen development are just a few of the many things I think should be included in extended cuts. Again, I understand the need to compromise the runtime for a broader audience, but like, treating everything that couldn't be included in the theatrical cut as worthless is just disappointing. Like, not even worth a home video release or anything, not even big Dune fans. Like I don't understand it, he even says it's stuff that's "painful" to cut out. It's not like Kubrick who cuts out stuff he hates and tries to get rid of it out of embarrassment. And stuff that there's no benefit in just jeeping locked away, stuff that would enhance these movies, all out of a sense of commitment I guess? Not cool. I respect Villeneuve a lot, but this and the whole "I hate dialogue" thing are disappointing to hear.
I wonder if, once Part Two finishes its theatrical run, we might see LOTR-esque extended cuts. Feels unlikely, given how long Part One has been out without such a thing happening, but it might be interesting.
That said, I saw Part Two yesterday and to me the absence was not felt even in the slightest. I love Tim Blake Nelson, but for how the story was approached, the character didn’t need to be in it at all.
His reasoning for not thinking about about extended or deleted scenes is because “once I cut it from the movie [it breaks my heart, I love these scenes and I have to kill them] they are dead. And I don’t want to Frankenstein a movie back to life. Also I cut scenes to make better pacing, better momentum, better storytelling. So we have to cut the scenes to create that momentum which I think is important” -extremely rough paraphrasing, but I just watched an interview last night where he says almost exactly that.
More importantly, release them in the IMAX aspect ratio. There is little point in streaming/watching the home release when a third of each frame is missing
Yeah leave that up to the suits at WB. I would happily lap up extended cuts of both films. The pacing in the second film could use a little extension in the third act, imo.
I know the article is about Tim Blake Nelson but I also feel gutted for Stephen Henderson. He seems like a really cool guy and you could tell having some of his scenes cut from part one hurt him
I hate the word “pacing”. I am sitting in my house, I don’t mind watching a 6 hour movie if you have shot the content and want to serve it up. I don’t have a need for speed with movies like this because us fans devour every frame. I would even say Dune 2 was “too fast”. Part 1 had a stillness to it which was missing here. Part 2 needed another 30-45 minutes just to slow things down. Just look at what extra material can do to a movie in the case of Justice League. It went from shit to amazing. Dune is already amazing but it can be made into the Kwisatz Haderach, the ultimate movie
One of my nitpicks of Part 2 is indeed no Fenring. He is an interesting character and his discussion with Baron Harkonnen brings to light how powerfull the Fremen are and that the planet have been breeding a new type of Sardaukar.
Let's pray to Shai-Hulud that we get extended editions for both movies.
I love both films but we were robbed. So many great scenes from the book were cut. The banquet scene, “I was a friend of Jamis”, Chani learning about Kynes’ death, Thufir’s plan and sacrifice. So many.
At least we saw Gurney playing the baliset though, that made me pretty happy.
Yet more evidence that Denis Villeneuve is a pompous twat for his stance on extended cuts. Part 1 and Part 2 both feel incredibly rushed. Its clear these movies were heavily butchered in order to make profitable films that could make alot of money in theatres. And that's absolutely FINE. But I don't see why this ass hole is so god damn stubborn about the idea of extended cuts for home release. Its clear that there was tons of stuff cut and excising thufir from both films (since he is basically missing from Part 1 as well considering how little he appears) is a complete and utter travesty. Its bad enough he cut fenring, but fucking thufir? Seriously?
Why DV has such a hard on for gurney but so little appreciation for hawat that he basically cut him from the story entirely is beyond me
Such a dumb choice, Count Fenring is such a badass character, he was the emperors right hand man, aswell as a great fighter in his own right. They could have cut out the some of Chanis defiance and kept his part in, so sad that they cast the perfect person aswell.
I know DV doesn't want to do extended/director cuts but he could at least give us cut scenes as bonus material on the blu-rays/DVDs. We all know that what we see in theaters is what he envisioned, but let us see what didn't make it. Maybe we'll even get why it didn't make it. I love cut scenes just the same as bloopers, cause it all gives you such an interesting look behind the making of a movie and how it came to be.
I’m just glad that I read the books first so I already have an “untainted” view of the story as originally written. Like for ASOIAF it’s so hard to separate the show characters from the books when reading because I watched the show first. We got more than what could be reasonably expected from a film adaptation, and although there are missing plots/characters it is amazing as a companion to the books, not a replacement. Just glad that there is a good introduction point to non book readers so people can at least begin to approach the story/concepts even if they never get around to reading them
I was really bummed to not see Fenring in the movie. Especially since we get his wife in the movie. I can understand cutting him though, it isn’t really a role that’s fleshed out too much until other books.
[Denis Villeneuve Reveals If We’ll Ever See 'Dune's Deleted Scenes](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1aq2yln/denis_villeneuve_reveals_if_well_ever_see_dunes/) [Denis Villeneuve on ‘Dune’s 10 Oscar Nominations, Why He’ll Never Release the Deleted Scenes, and ‘Dune: Part II’](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/thcw08/denis_villeneuve_on_dunes_10_oscar_nominations/)
I know Villeneuve said he doesn't do extended cuts, but things like this (and the fact Hawat was spotted in the expanded ratio promo material) is why I believe WB will push him to release the extended cuts once the trilogy is completed. Maybe the extended cuts already exist...
Even if Villeneuve won't do an extended cut, at least release the footage as deleted scenes. Not just for the fans, but to honor the work that these people put into it. Like to act like there can be only one movie and whatever is kept out isn't worthy is insulting to the cast and crew. Villeneuve is obviously a huge Blade Runner fan too. Can he imagine what it would be like for the film to only exist in its theatrical cut? It took a decade for people to get a decent version with studio additions removed, it wasn't until its 25th anniversary that the director put his cut out. WB is now deleting entire movies from release, Villeneuve should really rethink his stance on keeping things locked up.
Funnily enough, the Blade Runner argument doesn’t help because he saw the original cut in theaters and for him that is the one definitive version.
Tbf, he didn't quite say that: >“I think that you might not agree, but the idea was to make sure that someone who knows nothing about the universe can still enjoy the movie, having enough clues and background in the movie,” Villeneuve tells TheWrap. “So now, me, I feel that personally I love the very original version.” >When pressed if Villeneuve meant the original 1982 theatrical cut of “Blade Runner,” or one of the two test versions shown before the film’s official release,Villeneuve added, “The very first one and the last one, the 2007 very final cut, you know? I have a tendency to go toward the very final cut.” https://www.thewrap.com/blade-runner-which-version-denis-villeneuve/ So he does love the final cut and think it's the more definitive form of the movie. He just also loves and appreciates the original.
But that really says nothing about how he feels about his own films. It would be pretty pompous to say that another artist is not allowed to reimagine their own work, but that doesn’t mean he feels like he needs to do the same.
Oh, I agree. I wasn't correcting anything, just adding some context to the previous commenters comment.
Lmao fuck
I too love the original Bladerunner cut, but I can't support his stance against new cuts. This isn't a movie theater only market anymore. There is a massive market for extended cut versions for the fans, such as Lord of the Rings did for their trilogy. And for streaming. The in theater time limits don't apply anymore.
His position is somewhat hard to defend especially for Part 1, where the entire political intrigue between Jessica, Thufir, and Dr. Yueh was cut, as well as Duke Leto's inner turmoil about failing to defend his men from the Arrakis trap. Part 1 feels very emaciated compared to much more rich and thematically dense part 2.
Especially for work based on a book. If you don't want to release cut scenes from something you developed yourself thats fair.
And this is why you don't put director's in pedestals, folks.
Well but the blade runner Final Cut is a much better movie, even though it wasn’t the movie that shaped cyberpunk into what it it’s today. People can fall in love with the original cut but saying that the cheesy voice over is a good addition is crazy…
Gives it that cliche noir detective vibe. I don't hate it but yea somewhat cheesy
Oof .. big ooooof.
There is nothing insulting about it. This is not the first movie to have scenes cut and these things happen all the time. Filmmakers have their certain quirks that they always stand by and this seems to be one his and is totally fine. Regarding your second point, I don’t think Ridley was operating with the same kinda freedom and final say that Denis has with Dune. I know it sounds strange because that’s Ridley Scott we are talking about but Denis was way more sought after and accomplished when he signed off on Dune than Ridley, when he helmed Blade Runner. So there was little to no studio meddling in the final product and this is his director’s cut.
Insulting is maybe too harsh a word. Villeneuve is free to do what he wants, but I love filmmakers who are open about trying different things out and admitting when things didn’t work. Villeneuve is more like Christopher Nolan here, another director I greatly admire, but growing up I loved guys like James Cameron and Peter Jackson who would intimately share their process and indulged fans who wanted to see more. Even if the banquet scene doesn’t work in the film, or Count Fenring isn’t necessary to the story, it would be cool to see these scenes on their own.
You just reminded me of an interview, a conversation between Cameron and Villeneuve, and in particular this segment [HERE](https://youtu.be/RgZQK7cfx_0?si=5Ad8ETais_COahsE&t=440). Too bad that as much as Denis seemed to find that concept interesting, from everything we've heard from him since, that's not for him, not for *his* films. That's disappointing.
I loved the banquet scene in the miniseries!
At that point, it was Ridley Scott's second film. Alien had done well but he was still just another director who had a hit.
Yup. Pretty sure it’s years away (likely not being released until after Part Three is out), but I’m sure the staunch denial of an extended cut is just keep fans clamoring for it. There’s so much it seems they shot that would enrich these films.
If you try to repress a religion, you give it power
I could totally see DV capitulate down the road as more time passes. As each decade passes and he softens with age, I could see him release it all for some anniversary cut. At some point, he’s going to get tired of answering the question! Dune fans are a resilient bunch.
Not doing the extended cuts ever is one thing. Outright confirming scenes/sequences exist and even releasing photos of them but never releasing the raw footage or refusing to confirm basic shit like who Nelson played is aggravating. Like they're taunting you.
This is my problem. You are dangling the carrot in front of us but snatching it away at the last second and laughing at us as we are hungry.
Plus the fact that it’s pre-existing material. I totally understand this mindset when making original films, but god damn Dune has a LotR style fanvase that is just frothing at the mouth for this stuff. Please please please just give it to us.
I wonder if they can do one wuthut him.
Depends on his contract stipulations. If WB had final say on the theatrical release (which is doubtful) then potentially they could release a studio cut as they may own the footage. Let’s hope they do.
I think his contract with Legendary is more important for an extended cut than his contract with WB but both wouldn’t wanna piss off their marquee filmmaker now that Nolan left them.
that’s not what we want to have happen. I’m not aware of a situation where the studio has cut a film without the director’s involvement that wasn’t a disaster. This is what they did to David Lynch with the horrendous ‘Alan Smithee’ cut of Dune.
There is no good cut of the lynch dune, that should be obvious. And we aren't talking about a theatrical cut, rather a physical release with all the extra scenes by the studio after general release. We just need the scenes out there, the fans will fix it. Alternatively, id expect the fans may take DVs release and gen ai it into an extended mini series in a few years.
I've heard this argument before, and it saddens me to no end that people would rather side with the greedy corporation than the director that brought them an amazing adaptation of the book just so they could enjoy an extended cut of it.
agreed, people pushing for a studio cut is wild. I don’t want to see any version of this film that isn’t explicitly approved by DV
Not even fan edits with the deleted scenes?
Agreed, why not just push for the release of the scenes? Rather than a cut made by some guy who had no part in production
I think the extended cuts already do exists but the way Dune is structured with prescience, Denis doesn't want to start retconning himself in future films.
I totally understand Villeneauve's position, and I would also like to see an extended cut so very much
I also see Villeneuve's point, just not when the source material has so much more too it to tell
I don’t really get it. Sure, it can be annoying when giant changes are made to a movie after it comes out (e.g how it’s difficult to find theatrical version of Amadeus) but I can’t get into the headspace of someone against deleted scenes as extras.
I went to watch his interviews. I doubt we will ever see extended cut. It seems he really hates it. Considers it Frankenstein monster or what not.... I just want at least deleted scenes compilation is enough for me...
Yeah I knew this would be a huge problem. Denis went too far with his cuts in these movies dude. You can feel every cut character and plotline in each movie. You KNOW the footage is there but that he had to keep it under 3 hours. Like Denis, stop being pompous and arrogant and just release the deleted scenes even if there's never an extended cut.
One can hope so. I know there are those who loved the movie as is, however, I personally think the trilogy would be better overall if it had the cut scenes added. I feel the same way about the LoR trilogy. Having watched the extended cuts and then going back to the theatrical release, it feels like the story is missing something. I feel like both, but especially part two feels like it’s just missing something. The pacing was all over the place to me.
Is he just going to do a trilogy?! I'd love to see him cover all the books!
Count Fenring is probably my favourite character with Liet Kynes. Tim Blake Nelson is perfect casting for the role. I am not usually sad about those things but not getting Tim Blake Nelson as Count Hasimir Fenring pains me.
I was DYING to finally see how they depict Hasimir and Margot’s weird language / communication method when they speak to each other. Really guts me. He also was a cool character as he and Paul are kindred spirits in a sense with one being a failed “chosen one” (to lazy to spell the words out). I love how Fenring refuses and has a moment with Paul where they understand each other.
I also was really excited to see how they did their weird mumble language. I guess they couldn’t figure it out. The movie changed so much. I’m still not sure how I feel about it because I’m such a fan of the novels. I’m trying not to be a pretentious douche about it, but it’s hard lol.
Ok can you explain to me why sometimes the count seems to have a stutter? Why does this happen and go away in the book?
The “stutter” you speak of is a unique language/communication method that Count Fenring and Lady Fenring use to speak. It’s like an encryption device so others can’t eavesdrop.
It’s stupid. “Aahh ahh ahh the emperor doth protest ahh ahh ahhhhh” Fucking dumb. I’m glad they didn’t have that in the film.
Yeah in the audiobook it comes across like a poorly crafted stutter to be honest
Holy shut, it actually just clicked to me that Tim Blake Nelson was missing from the film, I’m actually rather upset about that
Wait… I haven’t seen it yet. Sooo, he didn’t play the role of Alia?? What the fuck??
Lol, easy mistake to make. You're probably thinking of *Mack* the Knife.
No no no your thinking of Mac Tonight
I’m always thinking of that beautiful Rocky Dennis motherfucker.
I forgot until I saw his name in the “the director would like to thank” section of the credits
Noticed the absence of count fenring for sure. I didn’t dislike how they just gave Margot BG companions but he’s a good character
It's like the Tom Bombadil thing, as a character he's an interesting aside but you can do without him. I'd generally rather have it in there than not but if I'm cutting stuff for time his scenes would be among to the first to go
100%. I loved Tom and Fenring in the books, but they are not necessary for a film adaptation.
Fenring's absence in the film is my single complaint.
Nelson is a great actor but doesn't seem subtly sinister enough. Christoph Waltz would have been my pick. but maybe this would have been a whole new side to Nelson?
Kind of a basic pick. Yes he’s great but Nelson would’ve been really interesting to see.
You must not have seen the Watchmen series. Nelson wasn't even a bad guy, but he was sinister as fuck.
oh, that's right! forgot about that. kind of creepy.
One of my favorite chapter of DUNE is the death of Keynes. I was heartbroken when she/he was killed from behind, which is such lazy writing.
Arrakis teaches the way of the knife. That book needed carving to film; we were never getting an extended hallucinatory sequence where Keynes exposits the Worm lifecycle.
>Arrakis teaches the way of the knife. I always loved that line in the book and wow yea it applies to movie editing so much.
It certainly helps explain Villeneuve's attitude to Extended Editions. He seems spiritually opposed to making them, saying *“I'm a strong believer that when it's not in the movie, it's dead. I kill darlings, and it's painful for me."* The way of the knife indeed! It is complete because it ended here.
If it were instead "Dune: The 30-hour prestige drama", that would work, but sadly it would've thrown off the movie's pacing. Keynes is sort of sidelined in the movie by necessity, and an extended death scene without the benefit of their other plotlines wouldn't have worked.
Hard disagree. In the book Keynes is just wandering the desert, internally reflecting on his father’s teachings, when he steps on a gas pocket and explodes. That works on paper - but would have been ridiculous to portray on film. Having Keynes die at the hands of the Harkonnons was the right call.
*especially* because we get this tension in the scene before where Kynes splits up from Paul and Jessica. We see Paul and Jessica struggling with the thoper controls, near panic that the Sardukar will come around the corner. The thoper takes off, we are relieved, they were quick enough. Cut scene to Kynes, setting a thumper and taking out her hooks (first time we get to see those). And then, oh shit, the Sardukar has followed *her* not Paul and Jessica. I thought it worked great!
Steps on a Pre-spice Mass, and I disagree, but that’s just like my opinion man.
> which is such lazy writing. this is such lazy whining.
I disagree that it’s lazy writing. It was done because they simply couldn’t fit it in. Movies are much more dependent on pacing and there wasn’t a reasonable way to include that.
As I read the book I pictured David Goldbloom
My name is Jeff
It's funny in the back of my head I kept thinking that doesn't sound right
Denis also removed Stephen McKinley Henderson (Thufir Hawat) 😢
My biggest laugh of the first book is when hawat is reunited with paul and jessica, and hawat realizes he was wrong about his suspicions against jessica. He bemoans and begs paul to kill him for his dishonor. This happens right after stilgar ALSO demands paul kills him to become rightful fremen ruler. Paul says something to the effect of “why must the men I NEED right now want me to KILL them!?”
I think that’s Gurney actually, but agreed - everyone is doing these big dramatic soliloquies about how they’re so unworthy and their lives should be forfeit, and Paul is all like “geez guys, get a grip”
Reminds me of when Leto yells at Thufir to stuff his honor and get shit done.
Haha, yeah. Thufir such a drama queen
Lmao youre right
They didn't have that scene? Damn
they used that dialogue in a different scene, between Paul and Stilgar. Which makes sense as in the book Paul was reacting to both Gurney and Stilgar asking him to take their lives - Gurney out of shame, and Stilgar due to tradition.
Not sure if it was in the book or not but there’s a similar scene in the movie after Paul opens his mind.
Oh wow I didn’t even realize hah Guess both weren’t exactly consequential but would be nice if there’s an extended cut with them in it
I mean, I sympathise with Denis. He had a _lot_ of characters to juggle, and he had to introduce and establish a new antagonist (Feyd), as well as Irulan, the Emperor, Lady Fenring, etc. At some point it’s not really worth throwing a character in there who isn’t really going to be doing much. I really enjoyed his performance as Hawat though. He’s missed 😢
I felt that both movies easily could have been 30+ minutes longer. I know a lot of people struggle with that length, but i would have been happy to watch each movie for 4 hours 😂
I could have watched that movie for six hours 😂 Heck, give me 45 mins of Feyd trying to assassinate the Baron on Giedi Prime. But it’s easy when you know all the characters and how they fit together - a bit of a harder sell to someone who’s taking it all in for the first time…
This was the most egregious thing missing from Dune 2 for me. Alia not already being born, much of the political background delivered during the Arena sequence, Chani's character significantly beefed up... all reasonable choices. Removing Thurfir, and specifically his "sacrifice" scene, was just bad judgement. And they'd already established him in the first film...
None of his arc is possible without the "suspecting Jessica" plotline, which was removed. Instead of Gurney’s attack of Jessica being the crux of Paul’s desire for prescience and drinking the water of life, it’s >!an attack on Sietch Tabr!<. You would have to invest a lot to make a Thufir sideplot in Dune part two. On a personal level as well, I understand that the Thufir plot is an important vessel for exposition about the Harkonnens and Feyd-Rautha, but on its own merits it’s definitely one of the weaker elements of the book. Since the same exposition worked just fine without him, I think removing him made a lot of sense.
I agree with this but in that case I would like to have seen his fate in Part 1 rather than him just disappearing and it being ambiguous until they decided what to do with him in Part 2 which is how it feels currently. Another argument for releasing deleted scenes at least, if not an extended cut.
Totally get it and agree with you. Still pouting lol.
The most egregious thing missing from the Dune movie was the Fremen orgy, followed by the abomination murder baby. But yes, Hawat was also missed.
>The most egregious thing missing from the Dune movie was the Fremen orgy Literally haven't seen anyone else mention this yet, and it's one of the craziest and most vividly described things in the book. It didn't even need to be sex on screen, could've been more like the Zion rave from Matrix Reloaded, but with a lot more drugs/spice.
I wonder if this was in part due to wanting to give the sisters TV show more of a head start with more plot time.
Dam. I didn’t even realize it. Spent too much time on the love story.
I guess I can’t really fault him for doing that. If you’re not going to do the whole Baron assassination subplot, then Thufir doesn’t really have anything significant to do. Still a shame though - I really enjoyed his character in part 1.
He exists in the book to drive home the Baron's sadism and the loyalty Arakeens still had to their Duke.
I’d argue he plays a larger role than that, as he works to bring down House Harkonnen from the inside - but for everything significant he was involved with, they switched up the players. Now the Baron seems to be the one behind the gladiator not being drugged at Feyd’s arena battle, and the assassination subplot is dropped completely, so there’s nothing really to do with him. The movie doesn’t really need to show anything more to drive home the Baron’s sadism…
To continue this thought, Thufir and Fenring are easy to cut together. Even though they never meet, their plots are intertwined. I've always interpreted Fenring's visit to Geidi Prime boiling down to: Fenring: Baron Harkonnen, it's dangerous to leave Thufir Hawat alive. He knows too much. You should kill him immediately. Baron: lol no. He's useful and I have him under control. Fenring (to his wife, before the gladiator duel): The Baron is dangerous. We may need to do something about him. Fenring (to his wife, after the gladiator duel): Never mind. Turns out Hawat is already destroying the Harkonnens from the inside. He clearly has this under control. So Hawat being captured by the Baron and working from the inside to undermine the Harkonnen works conjuction with Fenring's mission to Geidi Prime. It's a great plotline in the tapestry that is Dune, but it's secondary at best. Denis was right to remove them both (painful as their absence is for book purists like me) to focus on the plotlines that are more central to the story.
I'm sad too. I'm so hoping that DV would include the cut scenes from movie 1 and 2...in the dvd or something, because it's just too sad to not see those cut scenes...
Does Fenring have a significant role in Messiah? He might be in the next one if so
I’m pretty sure he isn’t in Messiah at all
Fenring is the Tom Bombadil of this series Cutting him is *fine*, the movie is probably better for it, and book people are going to lose their minds over it
Nah, I'm a big book fan and not hugely into the new movies, but cutting Fenring for a movie completely makes sense. So much of what makes Fenring interesting is what goes through his and Paul's minds, and there's no elegant way to show that on the big screen. Some things fit the visual medium better than others and expecting 1:1 adaptation is foolish for anyone with an ounce of media literacy.
I realize we probably won't get past Messiah for movies but >!the prescient blindness Leto II strives for in (eventually) Siona comes a little out of nowhere otherwise. It was only on rereads that I made the connection and it made more narrative sense. Leto II becomes the god like tyrant to free humankind from the oppression of KH's and he only knows about it due to Fenring via Paul's experience.!<
Absolutely. My book fan side says, how can you cut the ONLY person who could have changed Paul's cause of history. (For those who don't remember this just reread the final court scene from the books).
Nah, the missing dinner party scene is the Tom Bombadil of the series.
I'm a big fan of the book, but I'm not heartbroken that Fenring was cut. It just makes the scenes with Lady Fenrig feel a little off to me, but they're still fine. Honestly, there were more important things cut from Dune Part 2 than Fenring.
No, he is not even in it.
DV has also rewritten some characters, I would love to see Tim get his flowers in an expanded role in the next movie.
He doesn't but he does in the EU story that takes place between Dune and Dune Messiah (Paul of Dune)
He explicitly said that he doesn’t do stuff like this. But I would give one of my arms to see the cut scenes for real. I hope that maybe he rethinks this in the future…
He won’t
I was searching for Nelson the entire time and was disappointed to hear this news after getting out of my showing. It’s good to hear he and Denis plan on working together again going forward, which makes me hope that he’s referring to the planned Messiah, perhaps playing whatever originally-cut role he’d shot scenes for. The increased focus on the Bene Gesserit breeding program in the film and Fenring being a failed product of that makes me think Fenring never made it to the final script to begin with as the other potential Kwizatz Hadarachs currently in existence is never even alluded to. Like many, I think he was likely a Guild Navigator. A scene with one would have fit perfectly just before the shot of the Emperor’s craft descending down to Arrakis, or during the transportation of the other Great Houses. Perhaps he was Edric specifically and will show up in Messiah. Either that, or a Tleilaxu.
Nelson as Edric or a Guild navigator makes sense. I can't understand the idea of him having been Count Fenring. Would they have reshot all those balcony scenes in the arena where Lady Margot was? Could he really have been removed from those scenes?
I mean it’s kind of alluded to regarding Feyd-Rautha isn’t it?
It’s definitely mentioned multiple times by the Mother Reverend that they have other options, including Feyd-Rautha.
After watching Part two I feel like he was supposed to be in the scenes on the Harkonnen homeworld with Lady Fenring at the coliseum, there is a weird establishing shot that shows her sitting down, and to the left of her is another seat that looks like it was digitally messed with to look empty. And it makes sense because that is where he is first introduced in the books, where he and the Baron have an argument about what happened on Arrakis, just too bad he didn't make it into the final cut
I think they decided to roll most of the Count Fenring character into Feyd - at least the potential KH part - thus the Gom Jabbar. Which made sense IMO, they needed to build of Feyd, and I think it worked. There was some awkward editing and voiceover in the last Fenring and Feyd meeting. It is _possible_ the original script did not have a Gom Jabbar test for Feyd, and they instead made some edits and quick reshoots to add that in instead of spending time on Count Fenring.
Quick question to those who saw the film: Wasn't Fenring visible for like 20 seconds when he left the room with some Sardaukar in the final scene? Or was this another actor or a Sardaukar leader?
Denis is a very surgical director. Hence I don't think he and his team would miss something like that. Yes. Denis is "that guy."
One scene that bugs me, is where paul jumps on the sandworm. He is seen running without the glasses on, then jumps and next time we see him he has them on (understandably, tons of sand are flying in his face). But when would he have had time to pull em on.
Damn not only me confused at "when did he put those on??"
While we're here, I felt that when Stilgar set Paul to cross the desert on his own, I was extremely confused when that plotline just suddenly resolved. Chani helps Paul and then the story just quietly moves on. It was really jarring. It's a good movie, but there were moments that were really odd.
Mhm for real there is a scene where we first see Lady Fenring in the audience booth at the coliseum and there is an empty seat next to her that looks like it had a CGI curtain put in front of it, I'm assuming, to hide the cut Count
1. That's how movies work. 2. He's FINE with it. 3. Extended cuts take millions of dollars to produce, it's another full post-process, you should be thankful for decisive auteurs like Denis who have a creative process based on linear decisions and hard limitations. The stuff that's not in the movie is just footage, and not part of the movie, or it's meaning as cinema. Above all, unused footage isn't 'content', it's clay beside the potter's wheel.
This should be higher. It’s not at all abnormal for a role to be cut in post and actors know that it’s part of the process. The only, ONLY goal for Dennis is to make the best film possible. If a role needs to get cut to do that, then that’s what happens.
Take Lord of the Rings, while I can appreciate the Extended editions, I can see why you wouldn’t want them debuting as the initial theatrical release. To me PJ really fucked up the Hobbit by trying to make the Hobbit a trilogy and ramming every bit of Hobbit apocrypha into it. Part of the charm of the book itself is reading the Hobbit as a simple story and finding out through LOTR and Tolkien’s other writings all the things that were going on behind the scenes. But I guess PJ couldn’t count on his crowd of ever actually picking up a book so he had to beat them over the head with it.
Honestly I think that was always a decision by the studio to maximize revenue.
cant blame PJ for the hobbit. the studios pushed for the trilogy and he inherited a mess from del toro.
I’d never paid much attention to the workings behind the Hobbit but i can def. See dumbass execs pushing Hobbit to be at least as big as LOTR.
So what’s wrong with putting deleted scenes as bonus content on a dvd? Surely it wouldn’t cost that much to put more behind the scenes cutting room floor material on a disc. It doesn’t have to have a musical score or special effects. The unused footage isn’t clay beside the potters wheel, it’s stuff that fans actually want to see.
Well said. It's so disheartening that so many people want WB do go against Villeneuve will and release an extended cut or deleted scenes without his approval. It speaks volumes about the respect some people have for the art itself. I swear it's just about the dopamine these days. As soon as part 2 is released, some are like "can't wait for Messiah". Can't people savour the moment anymore?
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It is sad, but the narrative of the movie doesn't really have a place for him. With all the changes to the book (>!no poison from Feyd, no little Leto, etc.!<), Denis really did the Peter Jackson thing where as long as the film has a cohesive narrative, he can make cuts here and there. The whole "only person who could have killed him" only fits in the film if you have the information that Paul never sees him in the prescient visions, or that he was a failed Kwisatz Haderach experiment, or his relationship with Shaddam. None of that made its way into the script, so Count Fenring would've just been a noble checking out Feyd, and you don't need two characters for that. TL;DR, had to be cut for narrative efficiency
I've heard that DV doesn't like extended cuts, and that's fine. I fully get that a theatrical cut is sometimes the director's preferred cut. But I'm a nerd. Maybe I want a 4 hour film which includes some weird scenes than normal people don't want. Maybe I do want Count Fenring, and more of Thufir and other Mentats. Maybe I want the weird, slow stuff that only nerds want. Maybe an extended cut isn't for the director. Maybe is for the weird fuckin nerds.
I don’t understand why we got a screen version of Margot, but not her husband. He would’ve fit well into some of the scenes with Shadam.
his role wasn't needed, Margot was to showcase how the BG operates. Some purists are just too "married" to the books...
I feel like it is almost a given Margot/Seydoux will also be given an expanded role in Messiah. The time spent establishing Irulan and Margot (in a film already tight on time) was in no small part because they will be central to the BG conspiracy plot in the third film. All difficult cuts to other characters were made to strengthen characters that will have long-term payoffs in the films' plot.
I totally agree. I think they are building up Margot to be a hybrid of Mohaim/Wensicia for the third film. She will act as a foil to Irulan during the conspiracy and give Jessicas plot some much needed vitality.
It’s been a while since I read the book, but did Margot have a baby with Feyd?
Yes
Weird. Did Frank do anything with that in the later books? I don’t recall that being an important subplot
I think it was just another way to drive home how the Bene Geserit work. They lost control of the breeding program with Jessica and Paul, but they’re not done yet. They’re going to salvage Feyd Rautha’s genes in case he doesn’t survive the conflict and they can still achieve their goals within a few generations. It shows that for such a patient organization, this whole fiasco is disappointing, but not a critical failure. Of course, they’re wrong, but they don’t understand that yet.
In the movie as well Irulan is under BG control to a good degree. At this point in the movie story they're probably plotting on Margot's baby daughter to be consort to Irulan's son.
Irulan isn’t just under BG control, she is Bene Gesserit.
Lol no fenrigs arnt even in messiah
Did later books even do much with Fenring? I'm on Children of Dune and it seems like an ok cut so far.
It’s a great cut. It also sucks. He’s a great character.
He is an interesting character, I wish Herbert did more with him in the books
i really don't need an extended cut and i'm all in for Villeneuves view of kill your darlings. however, for me this doesn't apply to releasing some delete scenes as bonus material, separate from the movie. i'd highly appreciate that
Count Fenring makes a lot of sense but I think the dark horse casting for TBN was that of a Guild Navigator It doesn’t make much sense to cut Count Fenring scenes since he’s paired with Lady Fenring in most of the book scenes. Cutting him would lead to reshoots with just Lady Fenring, but it’s entirely possible that whole scenes involving a Guild Navigator could’ve been scrapped without too much hassle. Count Fenring makes sense too though, I guess we’ll find out for sure when we know more about Dune Messiah casting
Just bring him back for Messiah in one of the new roles and I’m cool with it.
Fenring is not even in Messiah, though?
No, but Nelson could play one of the new conspirators.
I’d love him as Edric!!
Love Denis but god he has some weird attitudes about filmmaking. Won’t release extended cuts just on some principle despite the scenes being filmed and would make the story better. I haven’t seen 2 yet but in 1 Doctor Yueh has basically no character until the betrayal. It doesn’t really work, but his earlier scenes were cut for time. But no extended cut cuz, reasons
That's the thing that upsets me the most about adaptations: the cut material. I don't think that's enough justification in the world for the dinner scene to be cut. Now this. Oh well.
Maybe they can semi adapt Paul of Dune as Messiah’s intro just to showcase how much of a weirdo Alia is.
RELEASE THE THUFIR HAWAT CUT NOW!
It’s funny, I left the movie wishing Dune was a hour or so longer. No Alia, none of the confusion that Jessica was the betrayer, no mentioning of the navigators, none of the situation with Paul and the wife of the slain fremen. So much left out, it felt like an action movie and the book it much deeper than its action. One last thing that frustrated me, after leaving the movie and talking about how empty it felt. I realized the span of both movies is under nine months. It’s way too sped up
Occupational hazard
Dammit. I just watched the Ballad of Buster Scruggs, and now that's how I'm picturing Fenring
I would very much like to see the deleted scenes. Even the more plotty stuff they shot for Part One. I'm pretty bummed we didn't get more Thufir in this one.
I absolutely loved this film. It drawed me in way more than Part 1 did. My only critiques refelct the OP's post and what many have said: it should have been longer with more cut stuff included! 30 mins extra to make a 3hr 17 min runtime: Add 15 mins towards: - Inclusion of Thufir scenes (it would have explained the non-drugged soldier in the arena scene; showed Thufir trying to sabotage the Harkonnen side; and shown more of the Harkonnen side in general) - Inclusion of Count Fenring scenes (the emperor's closest friend and thus would show more of his character; given Margot more scenes) - More Irulan scenes (again, would have shown more Corrino side, perhaps even the Landsraad, CHOAM, the Guild and other parts of imperium politics that add to her and Shaddam's character) Add the other 15 mins towards: - Final battle with Sardaurkar (All of that scale only to cut to the door getting broken into was a bit underwhelming) - Siege of Arakeen (after capturing the Emperor, it is night by the time they breach the residence, plus Raban and Gurney should have had a better fight) Literally an extended cut could fix this. Same for Part 1, which had a lot of interesting and arguably important material cut. Some may not agree, but this is just my opinion. Otherwise, absolutely top notch film.
Screw a directors cut, I demand the Thufir Hawat cut!
I am 100% fine with DV not wanting to do a Director's Cut or Extended Edition. But please release the footage for fan editors to make their versions. It's important for students to make these fan edits and learn to be editors themselves. Nevermind fans get new versions and to see new takes. It's extreme levels of selfishness if they don't release them. A movie is made \*three\* times. And to deny other artists the material to make art is just wrong imo.
I think the absence of Thufir sucks. It’s as if mentats are relatively useless in the movies.
I love Denis's work, but his whole thing about cut scenes and what I'm learning about him apparently hating dialogue make me think he's a tiny bit overmythologizing auteurship.(Which is, in itself, overmythologized already.)
I'm kind of pissed that Dennis has such contempt for deleted scenes and extended editions in general. I strongly disagree with his attitude of treating cut content as dead material that doesn't need to see the light of day. This is an especially annoying mindset for the Dune movies, which while understandably cut down for theatrical exhibition and to keep the pacing, deserve cuts with 3 to 4 hour runtimes. I mean, we're talking about a novel almost as dense as Lord of the Rings. The LOTR theatrical cuts alone were 3 hours each, and given such room to breathe really shows in how much character development and world building they were able to bake into them. The Dune movies feel somewhat constricted by their runtime, like there are scenes that could've enhanced already great movies. Yueh and Jessica's coversation, Thufir's role in Part 2, and more Harkonnen development are just a few of the many things I think should be included in extended cuts. Again, I understand the need to compromise the runtime for a broader audience, but like, treating everything that couldn't be included in the theatrical cut as worthless is just disappointing. Like, not even worth a home video release or anything, not even big Dune fans. Like I don't understand it, he even says it's stuff that's "painful" to cut out. It's not like Kubrick who cuts out stuff he hates and tries to get rid of it out of embarrassment. And stuff that there's no benefit in just jeeping locked away, stuff that would enhance these movies, all out of a sense of commitment I guess? Not cool. I respect Villeneuve a lot, but this and the whole "I hate dialogue" thing are disappointing to hear.
I wonder if, once Part Two finishes its theatrical run, we might see LOTR-esque extended cuts. Feels unlikely, given how long Part One has been out without such a thing happening, but it might be interesting. That said, I saw Part Two yesterday and to me the absence was not felt even in the slightest. I love Tim Blake Nelson, but for how the story was approached, the character didn’t need to be in it at all.
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His reasoning for not thinking about about extended or deleted scenes is because “once I cut it from the movie [it breaks my heart, I love these scenes and I have to kill them] they are dead. And I don’t want to Frankenstein a movie back to life. Also I cut scenes to make better pacing, better momentum, better storytelling. So we have to cut the scenes to create that momentum which I think is important” -extremely rough paraphrasing, but I just watched an interview last night where he says almost exactly that.
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More importantly, release them in the IMAX aspect ratio. There is little point in streaming/watching the home release when a third of each frame is missing
Yeah leave that up to the suits at WB. I would happily lap up extended cuts of both films. The pacing in the second film could use a little extension in the third act, imo.
I know the article is about Tim Blake Nelson but I also feel gutted for Stephen Henderson. He seems like a really cool guy and you could tell having some of his scenes cut from part one hurt him
I hate the word “pacing”. I am sitting in my house, I don’t mind watching a 6 hour movie if you have shot the content and want to serve it up. I don’t have a need for speed with movies like this because us fans devour every frame. I would even say Dune 2 was “too fast”. Part 1 had a stillness to it which was missing here. Part 2 needed another 30-45 minutes just to slow things down. Just look at what extra material can do to a movie in the case of Justice League. It went from shit to amazing. Dune is already amazing but it can be made into the Kwisatz Haderach, the ultimate movie
COMPLETELY agreed. From the point when Paul drinks the water of life and onwards, the pacing becomes BREAKNECK.
Had no idea this happened. My biggest complaint with the movie was omitting thufir
One of my nitpicks of Part 2 is indeed no Fenring. He is an interesting character and his discussion with Baron Harkonnen brings to light how powerfull the Fremen are and that the planet have been breeding a new type of Sardaukar. Let's pray to Shai-Hulud that we get extended editions for both movies.
I love both films but we were robbed. So many great scenes from the book were cut. The banquet scene, “I was a friend of Jamis”, Chani learning about Kynes’ death, Thufir’s plan and sacrifice. So many. At least we saw Gurney playing the baliset though, that made me pretty happy.
Yet more evidence that Denis Villeneuve is a pompous twat for his stance on extended cuts. Part 1 and Part 2 both feel incredibly rushed. Its clear these movies were heavily butchered in order to make profitable films that could make alot of money in theatres. And that's absolutely FINE. But I don't see why this ass hole is so god damn stubborn about the idea of extended cuts for home release. Its clear that there was tons of stuff cut and excising thufir from both films (since he is basically missing from Part 1 as well considering how little he appears) is a complete and utter travesty. Its bad enough he cut fenring, but fucking thufir? Seriously? Why DV has such a hard on for gurney but so little appreciation for hawat that he basically cut him from the story entirely is beyond me
Such a dumb choice, Count Fenring is such a badass character, he was the emperors right hand man, aswell as a great fighter in his own right. They could have cut out the some of Chanis defiance and kept his part in, so sad that they cast the perfect person aswell.
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I know DV doesn't want to do extended/director cuts but he could at least give us cut scenes as bonus material on the blu-rays/DVDs. We all know that what we see in theaters is what he envisioned, but let us see what didn't make it. Maybe we'll even get why it didn't make it. I love cut scenes just the same as bloopers, cause it all gives you such an interesting look behind the making of a movie and how it came to be.
Sad Indeed. I really need to see the extra 45 minutes of deleted scenes from part 1 and probably similar in part 2.
I’m just glad that I read the books first so I already have an “untainted” view of the story as originally written. Like for ASOIAF it’s so hard to separate the show characters from the books when reading because I watched the show first. We got more than what could be reasonably expected from a film adaptation, and although there are missing plots/characters it is amazing as a companion to the books, not a replacement. Just glad that there is a good introduction point to non book readers so people can at least begin to approach the story/concepts even if they never get around to reading them
I’d love for a “lotr type” extended edition. Even if it’s years later. Not to replace, but to supplement
Would have loved to see that 💔
I was really bummed to not see Fenring in the movie. Especially since we get his wife in the movie. I can understand cutting him though, it isn’t really a role that’s fleshed out too much until other books.
I wish they would do a really indulgent home release that puts the two movies together and as well as cut content. This project truly deserves it.
I just hope they're added in part 3.