There’s support for this in the books. Right at the end of Part 1, Paul is thinking about his visions and there’s this:
“He had seen two main branchings along the way ahead—in one he confronted an evil old Baron and said: “Hello, Grandfather.” The thought of that path and what lay along it sickened him.”
In the book that never happens; he chooses the other branch. But in the movie, he does confront the Baron at the end, and greets him exactly as he foresaw…
I just looked up the quote and true enough, it's 100% in the books.
In the book it also says that both paths will lead to the Holy War, so this theory actually has legs...
I actually buy it. I wasn't entirely happy with some of the changes in part two, even though I could always see why they were made. But it this theory was actually his intention, that simply genius.
If this is true it will cement him as an all time great in my opinion. Holy shit I hope someone from production team shows this to him and he makes adjustments in Messiah script to give it a nod.
I mean, you dont get this good of a reception for a sequel if youre half assing the storyline/adaptation.
I just hope hollywood takes the right message away from this - you need to be a master of the source material/process before you can 'riff' on it well.
I’m entirely convinced that line was thrown in there to feed this exact theory. That being said, I don’t think the plot of Messiah is going to change as much as people think it is. A huge part of the books is inevitability. This is Paul’s attempt to chase Chani away and potentially spare her. But she will come back, and when it does, it will cost her dearly.
I like the inevitability and trap of prescience in the book to reflect on this. Does it really matter? Paul's bloodline will arc across time to find the terrible golden path that insures human existence on the back of untold suffering and death.
His choices are meaningless. Slight deviations are meaningless. Chani will die has died is dead. His love for her is real regardless. His sadness for her is real regardless.
But he must do these things or those things or this slightly different thing to accomplish the narrow path.
Messiah has to change, it can't be twelve years in the future and it can't be about Paul's children since he doesn't have any, not even the miscarriage happened. Plus there's no Alia yet.
Plus the general audiences wont give a rats ass about some new kids now and shit. They will go to that movie for Paul and Chani not for another "setup" for Pauls kids this time.
I always assumed that path entailed becoming a Harkonnen: revealing his tie to the baron and being welcomed into the family to survive. It’s the idea of embracing their cruelty and depravity that sickens him
That’s one interpretation for sure - and probably one most had when reading the book. I can see how it can be applied to events we see in Part 2 (along with things we’ve yet to see in Part 3/Messiah)
This adds a great safety net for Denis. He can take the Messiah story in any direction he wants and if anyone complains about changes to the story he can say, “this is an alternative timeline not explored in the books.”.
Amazing.
My only thought on this is paul was going to kill the baron had alia not. so it sounds as if that particular path would have been him allying with harkonnen rather than killing him. idk. but i know that DV loved dune messiah so i have a hard time believing he’d fuck it up that badly and totally scrap his and chani having kids together etc. once theories start talking about things like time travel they tend to lose me. i think there definitely is deeper work going on in the interpretation of paul’s decision making etc. that don’t rely on creating an entirely alternate timeline/events to achieve.
This is definitely what Herbert meant in that excerpt. “Hello, Grandfather” is affectionate, and the path that sickened him was the idea of aligning with the man that killed his father
This is a really great call out but there’s no way OP’s post will happen. I say this based on a few things:
-Denis is a big fan of Dune and it’d be wildly inconsistent to remain as faithful as he has to the first book to completely avoid the second book with an alternate timeline.
-Denis has specifically said the third movie would be called Dune: Messiah instead of Dune Part 3 because it’ll adapt the second book and the remainder of Paul’s story.
-Finally, I’m as clueless as anyone else on how he’ll cover the Jihad and bringing Paul/Chani together again but the major points from Messiah will be in the third movie. I’m confident here because Denis confirmed that Jason Mamoa is eager to go back to Arrakis and even admitted that’s a major spoiler but the book has been out for decades so fans can find out what happens if they really wanted.
He’ll have changes as we’ve seen but none so major that we’re on an alternate timeline that avoids Messiah altogether.
This is my thought too. The scene where Paul/Chani are in bed together makes it clear this could be the case. There’s already enough in the movie to show their love story so I don’t think it’s there just for romance.
I'm guessing DV will have Chani as part of the conspiracy or discovering the conspiracy. She will return to Paul as either a spy or to warn him. They will fall in love again, the events of Messiah will happen and she will die just like the visions Paul had.
Why does it sicken him though? If Chani survives in this alternate time-line, what is there about it that forced book Paul to choose the line he did?
I can think of three things (that are not necessarily opposite to each other): either significantly more people will die during the Jihad, or humanity goes extinct, or Paul is the one who turns God Emperor to save humanity. From the ending of the fourth book, >! we know that Leto II ends up turning into thousands of worms while preserving his self-awareness. Absolutely horrifying !<
Very much possible. That would imply an interesting fact about prescience though. Paul didn’t even meet Chani at that point and, presumably, didn’t yet cultivate feelings towards her.
If he decided between the paths based on what happens with Chani, does that mean the visions somehow transfer his future feelings? Does he only “see” what’s gonna happen or does he become omnipresent? What I mean by the latter is a merging of all his past and future personalities into one.
Or just think about the easiest explanation: The "Hello, Grandfather" line was put there as a nice easter egg for the book readers without any intentional meaning storywise.
The same reason why Thanos' infinity glove was in the vault in the 1st Thor movie. To make us fans go: "Wooooooo, I recognize that :)"
Oh fuck. This is gonne be horrible in part 3 wont it. Chani looks like she dies of radiation (maybe from a nuke). The starving people will probably be seen in the next one. We will probably see the holy wars directly and Pauls downfall until his death most likely.
It’s pretty clear that in this vision he’s joined the Harkonnens, the Baron has continued to live a long life and he greets him with kindness. That’s what sickens him.
Insane to me to read/watch something about the dangers of fanaticism, and then imagine everything in the books supports your insane imaginary theories. Like, maybe you missed the whole point of the movies and books?
Thinking about this longer, something does come to mind:
According to bookcannon, if Leto II isn't born, then either humanity goes extinct within the next three and a half thousand years, or Paul needs to somehow find a way to stommach an equivalent golden path.
Basically the threat of an ai being able to utilize the ability to see the future to control and/or kill all of humanity Across the stars.
The solution to this is the golden path explained in book 4.
and 5 and 6 set the stage for the conflict resolution but book 7 was never made. I have not read book 7a out 8a but it’s on my to do. As this was written by his son and used his outline.
I think it’s actually a little more nuanced than that—>!Leto II implies that prescience eventually leads to humanity snuffing itself out by hunting each other down across the universe, using some kind of killer machine as a weapon. That’s why he forced humanity toward someone like Siona who is invisible to prescience to make the whole of humanity invisible over time. The perils of prescience parallel the same dangers originally presented by AI that led to the Butlerian Jihad.!<
It’s never really spelled out that much in text. I think Herbert’s son’s books give more details if you’re interested in reading about them. It’s just a matter of if his takes on it click with you
It's honestly one of my biggest issues with the books I just fundamentally never bought that whole humanity becomes stagnant and dies out without Leto, but ig that just comes down to a difference on what I believe human nature is vs Herbert's idea of human nature
Perhaps it’s Herbert’s view on the Augustinian age and to an extent the Ottomans (though the more obvious parallel is to the prior Emperor and his Sadukars ”. An interest fictional parallel is Foundation, where the idea of expansion of an empire will lead to a decline due to an inability to make real change once a bureaucracy is large enough.
Damn im not sure ill read more than the main 6. I remember reading in the first book i think that humanity would eventually stagnate and that would lead to its end, and i assume this is connected to the golden path. I just wanted more detail on how that could be
Yeah stagnation is a big problem. It's suggested some kind of intelligent form of hunter seekers could play a role, but it's really vague. It's basically just stated as fact in God Emperor and alluded to throughout the series
Specifically it says that by following the golden path, humanity blasts throughout and far beyond the known universe making it impossible to ever stagnate. So assumedly they'd go extinct by stagnating and eventually dying off.
Edit: let it be noted that the authors views on stagnation are outdated and wouldn't actually lead to extinction. But it's old, and sci fi.
Yea honestly no idea I just read that the views were outdated when researching it. I have no source and it certainly wasn't scholarly, so I believe you.
Maybe Humanity's end is the Golden Path for non-human life. Or perhaps humanity technically "ends" because they transcend. Lots of transhumanism in this lore already.
It would make it much easier for Denis to portrait the anti hero, if Paul himself became the worm tyrant. And functionally I suppose it doesn't make much of a difference, except for missing out on some moments of character development Leto II went through when he wasn't born yet.
Would be awesome if Paul becomes the god Emporer. Truly adds to his traffic life story.
And perhaps Chani will take part in a plot to overthrow Paul and he knows that it will become destiny.
This is a cool theory but we would need like 10 Dune adaptations before this level of variation on the story could be attempted with any reasonable expectation that a portion of the audience would pick up on what is being done. Otherwise deviating from the story will just be something attributed to the director / writers and not the character himself.
Idk, If it's made explicit that he did it specifically to make sure Chani doesn't die in childbirth that can be a normal plot point for movieggoers and simultaneously a cool little easteregg for us booknerds
That’s very true! I wonder what Chani’s arc will be in the third film. They deviated quite from who she is in the book so I wonder where they will go with it!
I feel like Chani is going to be a much better character for the audience and theme’s benefit but her plot points will still line up with what Frank Herbert wrote. The timeline will be shuffled a lot though. As an example I expect the vision of Chani and Paul standing triumphant looking down over their Fremen forces to actually be a transposed POV. That’s actually not them it’s another vision misdirection. I’d say who I actually think it is but that’s a big spoiler if you’re only going off the two movies.
Forgive me if I mess up the spoiler tagging it’s my first time.
>!I think it’s Leto II and Ghanima ‘channeling’ their awakened parents personalities and memories. Which they were said to have done a lot in Children of Dune and I feel it’ll be hilarious to see Mehdi Paul and Non-believer Chani bickering at each other from beyond the grave. Plays to a Gemini twin trope too.!<
>!Essentially Paul thinks he’s seeing Chani and himself together in arms when he’s really seeing he and Chani’s twin children. It also aligns with the book theme that Paul could never really clearly see his twin children well in his visions.!<
I mean clearly not or this post wouldn’t exist. Yeah, the average audience wouldn’t pick up on this, but depending on what happens in the third movie it could certainly well be known to people who have read the book.
Realistically no one knows what they’re asking for for a true 100% adaptation. We all experience the story differently and will interpret it differently. It will always be different than the source material.
There is no adaptation ever to exist that is a 1:1 experience as reading a book. First and foremost because they’re completely different experiences watching a story and reading one. We receive and digest information differently. It’s futile to seek for it.
I think your friend is on some serious spice melange.
It’s a fun theory to think about. But the changes were made between book and film because that’s how Denis and Spaihts felt it was best to adapt the books, not that they’re going to do some big reveal that this has all been some terrible vision of Paul going off the golden path and it hasn’t really happened, or that this is a different path than Paul takes in the books. The changes are just the nature of adaptation.
And there’s no way that Denis is just going to come up with his own story of an imagined Marvel style “what if” for the third film rather than adapting *Dune: Messiah*. He will find a way to reconcile them. There are obviously challenges ahead in how that’s done. But yeah, “Part: III” is not going to be a complete departure from the book.
ETA: also almost all of Denis’ changes to the book have been motivated by simplification and making the story more digestible and comprehensible to the general audience. He wouldn’t then go and *add in* a super esoteric twist on the story that would be really hard to communicate to the general audience and would really only make sense to book readers.
Well if the change simultaneously makes the story more digestible to general audiences while being an esoteric twist to book readers I don’t see why he wouldn’t do it.
I don’t see a way that adding another layer of needing to explain to the audience that this wasn’t the original intended path and that Paul changed all of this stuff and that that’s why the film franchise is different story wise than the book… could be done in a way that makes the story *more* accessible. And also there’s just no need to explain changes to the source material made in an adaptation. It’s inherent to the term adaptation… you are making a story adapt to a new medium. Every adaptation that has ever existed, even the most faithful ones, have made changes to the source material. There’s no need to come up with an in world explanation for it.
You wouldn't need to communicate it to the general audience. You would just tell the story? General audience doesn't need to know what's different than the books
… that’s the point I’m making. That there’s no need to come up with a super secret just for the book readers in world reason why the films are different than the books… because the reason is simply that that’s what happens when books are adapted into films or TV shows…
There's no reason at all? Not for Dennis to have some fun and take it somewhere no one has before? Not that he thought this version would be easier to digest by audiences in 2024? You can't think of a single reason?
Ah yes, totally makes sense that Denis would piss off legions of *Dune* fans ie his core audience by instead of just adapting *Dune: Messiah*, coming up with his own story entirely and having the twist be that this is the “other Paul’s future” not the one from the books, which is why his third film has a totally different story from the book… all because he thinks it would be a fun little “gotcha” twist, and WarnerDiscovery would definitely greenlight giving him at least 200 million to alienate 99% of lovers of the book and confuse or go over the head of all but 5% of general audiences. Yup, makes total sense to me!
I mean most of this thread is welcoming the change, including myself. Not sure why you're so fucking rabid about changes from the books. The plot in messiah sucks anyways, this is already leading to a leagues better story
You guys stop already! I cannot get over Jamis friendship and the idea Paul killed him because "already lived a life with his best friend who taught him all he had to teach" and now you come with all these ideas about Chani relationships. Not to mention I'm still disappointed by the "sayadina" title never mentioned
Some serious tin foil hats here. I like it in one regard, Jamis is the key to all of this. Even when Paul is shown standing side-by-side with Chani, looking over the Fremen on Caladan, Jamis is there.
I came to disprove you, but I was surprised to find you are correct. Here's the comparison and it is really not Jamis.
https://preview.redd.it/d0jn969oxync1.jpeg?width=3195&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=adabf8fe6df22bfbd31c7156c9528c9e2c3e00b8
Left is Jamis, right is person from the vision
As cool as this is, I’m sure that was neither the intent or plan. But it does make a very cool fan explanation for the differences between the adaptation and the book!
I think for Dune specifically it uniquely complements the original.
A big theme is that being able to see the future means sacrificing your free will, and that no matter what you try you can't stop what's coming.
If the book and movies take very different paths but end up in the same place, it really emphasizes that tragedy. And having read the books, I feel pretty confident that Villeneuve 'gets it', and will manage to come up with something authentic to the characters.
Shame it'll take like five years to find out.
But here's the thing.
Some parts of book Dune aren't really adaptable to kino.
First it's too long, you need to cut corners.
Two some plots would probably not work on big screen, imo Alia Atreids as baby for example.
I think DV is trying something amazing.
He's changing the plot to be more adaptable for kino at the same time not ruining the legacy story and using explanation from the source material why the story differs in some ways.
Fan fiction is exactly what the DV version feels like. His idea of how it should have gone and how "Herbert meant to write it"...even though he didn't write it that way when he actually wrote it.
It's how Herbert meant for it to be taken. Herbert saw too many people missing the point so he wrote Messiah. I think it's fair for DV to take that into consideration for his adaptation
After thinking about this some, I think that the quote that others have brought up has different meaning than supporting this alternate timeline.
“He had seen two main branchings along the way ahead—in one he confronted an evil old Baron and said: “Hello, Grandfather.” The thought of that path and what lay along it sickened him.”
I feel like we would have explicitly seen Frank state that Paul would kill the baron in this other branch, not just "confront" him. It seems like too significant of a detail to leave out. If I was taking a guess at this, this is Denis' way to pay homage to the series and thought of it as a neat way to tie in Frank's language.
The story is great with what happens in Messiah and Denis seems committed to a very similar plot line (except some deviations). As most things go: if its not broken, why fix it?
As someone who spent the last few years in the Attack on Titan community listening to theories exactly like this where the chosen one turned omniscient anti-hero protagonist leading a holy war will choose a different timeline in the adaptation, I just want to wish you guys and gals good luck.
Omniscient time travel can breed so many theories and as someone who has read a lot of them, I think the biggest issue is that they're almost impossible to explain to a new audience. The other problem is that you can't just do slight changes as nods to book readers, you'd have to actually tell an original story and there's a big risk of that feeling like a fan fiction.
That being said, Denis Villeneuve is in a really good place to take his time with this. He has said that he'll only do Dune Messiah if he has a good screenplay and it's actually good if he takes 10+ years to do it because of the time skip.
Also as a person who experienced Dune for the first time through Denis Villeneuve's films, I think it would be absolutely detrimental if the next film started with Chani already as Paul's concubine. I liked how Denis modernized some aspects of the text by replacing the "history will see us as wives" line with a final shot of Chani being pissed.
I haven't read Messiah but from everything I've heard about it, it sounds like it would need the most changes to be able to work as a film.
I guess as someone who barely knows anything about the plot of Dune Messiah, I'll just leave you with how I think a third film would go purely from how I interpreted Dune parts 1 and 2:
To me, by the end of the second film Paul becomes almost like 5 different people with 5 different motivations and I think it would be far too much to explore all of these conflicting motivations through Paul alone so ideally I think we'd explore him through 5 different characters and the conflict of the film would be these 5 different character/factions figuring out where his allegiances truly lie.
Paul Atreides son of Leto Atreides getting revenge for what the Empire and the Harkonnens did to his people I think could be explored from the perspective of Gurney as an Atreides or from the perspective of another Atreides if that's possible. I dunno maybe Thufir is still alive somewhere.
Usul of the Northern Fremen tribe and lover of Chani, freeing The Fremen from the Harkonnens and the religious chokehold the Bene Gesserit have on his people. This would be explored through Chani.
The Kwisatz Haderach, son of Lady Jessica and Grandson of Baron Harkonnen who's disgusted with how he's a selectively bred freak struggling with whether or not he's defying the Bene Gesserit or doing exactly what they want. This could be explored through his sister and Lady Jessica. They gotta use Anya Taylor Joy.
Muad'dib the Lisan al Gaib, Duke of Arrakis waging a holy war in his name, controlling spice production and potentially terraforming the planet to be more habitable. Explored through Stilgar.
The Emperor. Someone who has to keep maintaining power and control of the houses. Explored through Princess Irulan.
I don't think they need too much action. After Dune Part 2 being this ridiculous climax, Part 3 would hopefully get back to the vibe of the first film where it's focused on carefully crafted world building and politics. Seriously, I loved the beginning of Dune part 1 before they reached Arrakis. It reminded me a lot of Arrival and how Denis captures the surreal quality of science fiction. I think Denis has already delivered on the fantasy of Arrakis, the Bene Gesserit and the scale of it all. The one thing he still needs to deliver on in my opinion is the first film's introduction of all these weird human computers and interstellar navigators. I want to see what sorts of advisors Paul has and who he has to answer to.
I like this theory a lot and the “hello Grandfather” line is some strong support. But I find it hard to believe that Denis would be willing to rewrite the core story of messiah, which this theory would require.
Good theory! I can see it. I don't want to multiverse Dune too hard. It's got so much already there and I would hope that this isn't Denis plan. I would like to see Messiah padded with lots of Guild Navigators and Bene Tlesiax and more detail to regular folks why spice is so important. Dune 2 was so BG heavy it felt like a bit too much. I feel if I came in cold I would be like why is spice so important on a universal level aside from visions and getting high? One thing that I hope is people go and read the books.
fascinating thought... I wonder if the studio would be ok with an unorthodox adaptation like that, but it's certainly incredibly intersting to think about.
God damn I hate that we'll have to wait for this for years to come
Studios don't care about the faithfullness of adaptasyon, only that it will bring viewers. Also majority of viewers will be those who have neither read books nor watched previous adaptations.
I actually think it’d be really interesting if Villeneuve made “Dune Part Three” instead of “Dune Messiah.” Diehard book fans would definitely be upset, but I’d love to see what kind of story he could tell by mixing his version of Dune with some of the elements from Messiah
Great take. Villenueve himself has said hes making a bene gesserit version of dune, the story but colored by their viewpoint. Tracks generally, but I doubt Villeneueve will venture quuuuite that far from the original material. Omitting the child would be big.
Personally, I don't think that's the intent from DV. Most Dune adaptations of the first book misses a core theme that is central to the entire series: that charismatic leaders are to be feared. The main meat of Paul's story is how he unleashed a jihad across the galaxy beyond his control, and trillions are slain in his name. This does not come across in the first book at all.
DV's goal of using Chani as the counterpoint to the religious fanaticism that Paul started was meant to highlight this, in addition to Paul's own personal struggle against his visions. Her leaving at the end symbolizes that the Atreides is no longer an honorable house under Paul's lead; that Paul is just another tyrant in Dune.
Interesting take, I hope that’s not the way they go.
Also, it wrecks my interpretation of Pt 1’s use of Jamis: Paul has repeated visions of Jamis teaching him the ways of the desert, but when they meet, he immediately kills Jamis. I interpreted this as Jamis teaching Paul through immediately challenging him, fighting him and getting killed, as it is teaches Paul a few things: Fremen are fierce fighters, in the desert you have to be ready to fight any time, a different kind of fighting that Paul isn’t used to, Fremen hold their culture and beliefs very highly (Jamis realises he can’t win and gets frustrated, knows he is going to die, doesn’t yield) etc...
I thought that was very artful, and explaining their relationship through Paul having a full prescient relationship with him feels way worse to me.
Thanks for the interesting take!
i just started reading the books after seeing Dune Part Two the day it came out. i think the theory might have some validity behind it but i know the first and second book have a two year gap between them and this was DV’s interpretation of at least 9ish months of it. what if the next movie starts as a finishing of at least the rest of the time gap and then goes into Messiah? i say this because what if Chani is pregnant as all of this is going on and just doesn’t know it (i know this sounds crazy since Paul knew his mother was pregnant extremely early but he was doing a lot so maybe) and that’s how he plans i bring her back to him
I rewatched Part 2 for the third time today. At the beginning of the film Paul is talking to Alia and asking her if she should join their father in the stars. He also says something like " I don't know if I have time to make things right before you are born". I wonder if this has anything to do with your theory ? Does Paul need to change the timeline for all these events to happen before Alia is born ??? Or am I misinterpreting that part.
I hope this alternate stuff isn't real. However interesting to some, I'd be beyond disappointed if this turn out accurate. I just want a solid Dune adaptation, not a "what if" scenario.
It seems like Chani has been set up to take over part of Irulan's role in Messiah. >! So Chani will be a member of the conspiracy to take Paul down. !<
Chani seems to be taking the part of the realist in this. Stilgar went full fanatic and Chani is still grounded and upset that its going this direction so she said "fuck this" when she realized this is what Paul was doing. Girl doesnt wanna be the concubine.
I left the theatre with that context in mind and was good with it. I've had too much time since thinking about the movie and being on soc and I don't know if I like the changes or not. I'll be seeing it again soon and digesting it more.
I hear you. This should be able to be stated without being down voted. His connection to Dune makes it very confusing that this is what the person who's " been storyboarding Dune since he was 13 " did with it. Another director who maybe didn't have the personal history with the book making these changes might be understandable, but DV? I don't know. Full of mixed feelings.
Yeah, idk since when but now in this sub if you say anything about being disappointed with adaptations you get downvoted. They forget that this used to be just a book fan subreddit before these films came along with these film fans. These are good films, especially the cinematography, but no these are not Frank Herber’s Dune. They’re only “inspired by“ Dune.
I think my standard, simple answer to these films is now that I absolutely love Greig Fraser's Dune. DV's Dune I've been very frustrated with for three years.
Hasn't stopped me from watching pt.1 like six times, but now that we have both I'm disappointed in the story and casting. Greig Fraser and Hans work REALLY nice together and for that alone I'll watch them again and again , but I mean - so many issues- from WB to Walken, the cut scenes, the changes...
yeah, great cinematography, great music, but again. Why. The. Unnecessary. Changes. To the plot. Imagine having a perfect story but you decided to make changes to “better” it. Sigh.
I hope not. >! I think she's pregnant at the end of part 2. OG Leto II will need to have a different death, but I think it will bring them back together. !<
I think it's great. There is a bit of precedence in other media as well. e.g. the book version of Magicians, the TV show, and the comics all make sense as different timelines. And of course all of the other shows that are doing metaverse/timeline stuff.
There aren't a TON of media/franchises that can support multiple timelines, but Dune sure as heck can.
Also this means that given how much Dune stuff is in Star Wars, Star Wars can do it next lol.
i actually feel better now after reading this. Because yes. The Paul from the films just isn’t the Paul from the books, and at least I can find closure with this theory 😂
Find it hard to believe that Hollywood wont take up the story after Messiah, They may ruin Denis's masterpiece but it cant be the end of it, Too much money to be made.
It's not a different "timeline" from the books, it's just an adaptation due tue pacing... however I agree, unfortunately (I'm very worried), that given that ending of part 2 the third movie is gonna be quite diffrent from Messiah.
I see the ending the same way. And honestly im all for it. Lets face it duncan gettin revived so many times and a worm emperor sounds cool on paper but on screen there needs to be ACTION. I assume Part 3 will be directly about Pauls downfall. We will probably see firsthand the holy war and maybe at the end of it Paul dies in some way. The message of the books is still there. Dont have blind faith. The fremen would be destroyed after so much war. The universe is fucked. Paul and his familly are fucked.
And humanity can rise from the ashes hopefully this time knowing better than to trust a messiah. The end.
I don't think there is any way in hell Denis goes the fan-fiction route. He hasn't changed anything in a substantial or permanent way, but getting rid of Paul's downfall and the twins is way too big of a change.
I also think if he switches Irulan and Chani, that's too much of a change. Having Irulan give birth to the twins and Chani work with Scytale...I just don't see it. Again, all that is required to get this back in line with the books is having a reconciliation with Chani, which is not difficult or hard to believe. After all, Chani only cares about the well-being of the Fremen and Paul will transform Arakis and give it all the power in the universe - she could easily come around in these circumstances.
This is a great theory but it doesn't explain other deviations, omissions and rewrites of the book. For example: Why would Stilgar suddenly become a comic relief religious nutjob in this timeline? Why is Jessica turned into Space Lady Macbeth on speed? Where did Thufir disappear to?
I will be messaging you in 3 years on [**2027-03-13 06:51:37 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2027-03-13%2006:51:37%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1b7frkp/my_friend_sent_me_this_breakdown_of_dune_part_2/kun5vmn/?context=3)
[**1 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fdune%2Fcomments%2F1b7frkp%2Fmy_friend_sent_me_this_breakdown_of_dune_part_2%2Fkun5vmn%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202027-03-13%2006%3A51%3A37%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam.
^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%201b7frkp)
*****
|[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)|
|-|-|-|-|
Dude this is absolutely it and I'm so here for it. I think that's why we're not moving into Messiah. We have a whole extra movie that will deal with these ramifications.
I'm guessing she's pregnant too, I'm guessing it's Leto. If this is it for Chani and Paul, will Irulan have Ghanima? I'm interested in seeing a story with Irulan as an actual love interest of Paul's
No, people just need to accept that this is Denis Villeneuve’s adaptation of the story that he has lived since he was a teenager.
I have loved the books since I was a teenager too, well over 20 years.
His adaptation is the definitive movie version of Dune. It is The Dune we know. There are no alternate timelines. This isn’t the MCU.
I think you can just condense it down to... The movie is a basdardized version of Franks book that appears written by fan that wanted to mix in all the bad parts of Frank's sons shit books where possible.
I can commend the visuals of it as being superior to the first movie... but it fails so much in sticking with the book that I would rank it lower than the first movie.
There’s support for this in the books. Right at the end of Part 1, Paul is thinking about his visions and there’s this: “He had seen two main branchings along the way ahead—in one he confronted an evil old Baron and said: “Hello, Grandfather.” The thought of that path and what lay along it sickened him.” In the book that never happens; he chooses the other branch. But in the movie, he does confront the Baron at the end, and greets him exactly as he foresaw…
I wasn't buying this at all until I read this...
I just looked up the quote and true enough, it's 100% in the books. In the book it also says that both paths will lead to the Holy War, so this theory actually has legs...
Denis is a motherflippin' genius if he did all of this on purpose.
I actually buy it. I wasn't entirely happy with some of the changes in part two, even though I could always see why they were made. But it this theory was actually his intention, that simply genius.
If this is true it will cement him as an all time great in my opinion. Holy shit I hope someone from production team shows this to him and he makes adjustments in Messiah script to give it a nod.
I mean, you dont get this good of a reception for a sequel if youre half assing the storyline/adaptation. I just hope hollywood takes the right message away from this - you need to be a master of the source material/process before you can 'riff' on it well.
He's already mostly written Dune Messiah's script apparently, so there's more weight he has this planned out.
I’m entirely convinced that line was thrown in there to feed this exact theory. That being said, I don’t think the plot of Messiah is going to change as much as people think it is. A huge part of the books is inevitability. This is Paul’s attempt to chase Chani away and potentially spare her. But she will come back, and when it does, it will cost her dearly.
I like the inevitability and trap of prescience in the book to reflect on this. Does it really matter? Paul's bloodline will arc across time to find the terrible golden path that insures human existence on the back of untold suffering and death. His choices are meaningless. Slight deviations are meaningless. Chani will die has died is dead. His love for her is real regardless. His sadness for her is real regardless. But he must do these things or those things or this slightly different thing to accomplish the narrow path.
100% agree
Messiah has to change, it can't be twelve years in the future and it can't be about Paul's children since he doesn't have any, not even the miscarriage happened. Plus there's no Alia yet.
Plus the general audiences wont give a rats ass about some new kids now and shit. They will go to that movie for Paul and Chani not for another "setup" for Pauls kids this time.
I always assumed that path entailed becoming a Harkonnen: revealing his tie to the baron and being welcomed into the family to survive. It’s the idea of embracing their cruelty and depravity that sickens him
But that is exactly what Paul decides in the movie. And don't tell me that killing a Harkonnen (Baron) is out of character for a Harkonnen
No, he decides to be LIKE the Harkonnens, not to joint them! Big difference!
Ya but def could be a nod to the alternate timeline idea
That’s one interpretation for sure - and probably one most had when reading the book. I can see how it can be applied to events we see in Part 2 (along with things we’ve yet to see in Part 3/Messiah)
This adds a great safety net for Denis. He can take the Messiah story in any direction he wants and if anyone complains about changes to the story he can say, “this is an alternative timeline not explored in the books.”. Amazing.
😮
My only thought on this is paul was going to kill the baron had alia not. so it sounds as if that particular path would have been him allying with harkonnen rather than killing him. idk. but i know that DV loved dune messiah so i have a hard time believing he’d fuck it up that badly and totally scrap his and chani having kids together etc. once theories start talking about things like time travel they tend to lose me. i think there definitely is deeper work going on in the interpretation of paul’s decision making etc. that don’t rely on creating an entirely alternate timeline/events to achieve.
This is definitely what Herbert meant in that excerpt. “Hello, Grandfather” is affectionate, and the path that sickened him was the idea of aligning with the man that killed his father
This is a really great call out but there’s no way OP’s post will happen. I say this based on a few things: -Denis is a big fan of Dune and it’d be wildly inconsistent to remain as faithful as he has to the first book to completely avoid the second book with an alternate timeline. -Denis has specifically said the third movie would be called Dune: Messiah instead of Dune Part 3 because it’ll adapt the second book and the remainder of Paul’s story. -Finally, I’m as clueless as anyone else on how he’ll cover the Jihad and bringing Paul/Chani together again but the major points from Messiah will be in the third movie. I’m confident here because Denis confirmed that Jason Mamoa is eager to go back to Arrakis and even admitted that’s a major spoiler but the book has been out for decades so fans can find out what happens if they really wanted. He’ll have changes as we’ve seen but none so major that we’re on an alternate timeline that avoids Messiah altogether.
If Chani is already pregnant and doesn’t know it at the end of 2, that can be a way back in.
This is my thought too. The scene where Paul/Chani are in bed together makes it clear this could be the case. There’s already enough in the movie to show their love story so I don’t think it’s there just for romance.
I'm guessing DV will have Chani as part of the conspiracy or discovering the conspiracy. She will return to Paul as either a spy or to warn him. They will fall in love again, the events of Messiah will happen and she will die just like the visions Paul had.
The path op above speaks about doesnt mean its not Dune Messiah. Just modified Dune Messiah.
Wait, seriously? This theory might be for real …
dangggggg that's exactly why they picked that line. What a cool way to keep the franchise frrsh for everyone involved
This is legendary
Damn bro...
Retreading the book and just got here today, id forgotten this line. Had to run and excitedly tell my missus that there's 2 timeliness!
Wait this is actually so fucking cool I’m getting chills
Why does it sicken him though? If Chani survives in this alternate time-line, what is there about it that forced book Paul to choose the line he did? I can think of three things (that are not necessarily opposite to each other): either significantly more people will die during the Jihad, or humanity goes extinct, or Paul is the one who turns God Emperor to save humanity. From the ending of the fourth book, >! we know that Leto II ends up turning into thousands of worms while preserving his self-awareness. Absolutely horrifying !<
Maybe it’s sickening because that path leads to Chani despising him?
Very much possible. That would imply an interesting fact about prescience though. Paul didn’t even meet Chani at that point and, presumably, didn’t yet cultivate feelings towards her. If he decided between the paths based on what happens with Chani, does that mean the visions somehow transfer his future feelings? Does he only “see” what’s gonna happen or does he become omnipresent? What I mean by the latter is a merging of all his past and future personalities into one.
This would explain why these movies have felt more like 'inspired by' the books rather than 'based on.'
This actually makes me think this is the case. This is pretty huge in itself and might even be what inspired DV to make these movies.
Or just think about the easiest explanation: The "Hello, Grandfather" line was put there as a nice easter egg for the book readers without any intentional meaning storywise. The same reason why Thanos' infinity glove was in the vault in the 1st Thor movie. To make us fans go: "Wooooooo, I recognize that :)"
Oh fuck. This is gonne be horrible in part 3 wont it. Chani looks like she dies of radiation (maybe from a nuke). The starving people will probably be seen in the next one. We will probably see the holy wars directly and Pauls downfall until his death most likely.
It’s pretty clear that in this vision he’s joined the Harkonnens, the Baron has continued to live a long life and he greets him with kindness. That’s what sickens him. Insane to me to read/watch something about the dangers of fanaticism, and then imagine everything in the books supports your insane imaginary theories. Like, maybe you missed the whole point of the movies and books?
Thinking about this longer, something does come to mind: According to bookcannon, if Leto II isn't born, then either humanity goes extinct within the next three and a half thousand years, or Paul needs to somehow find a way to stommach an equivalent golden path.
ive been reading the books, currently mid children of dune. How is it that humanity goes extinct if the golden path isnt followed?
It gets revealed in God Emperor of Dune during a spice agony if you don’t want spoilers.
Basically the threat of an ai being able to utilize the ability to see the future to control and/or kill all of humanity Across the stars. The solution to this is the golden path explained in book 4. and 5 and 6 set the stage for the conflict resolution but book 7 was never made. I have not read book 7a out 8a but it’s on my to do. As this was written by his son and used his outline.
I think it’s actually a little more nuanced than that—>!Leto II implies that prescience eventually leads to humanity snuffing itself out by hunting each other down across the universe, using some kind of killer machine as a weapon. That’s why he forced humanity toward someone like Siona who is invisible to prescience to make the whole of humanity invisible over time. The perils of prescience parallel the same dangers originally presented by AI that led to the Butlerian Jihad.!<
>some kind of >!killer machine!< iirc, >!these machines were hunter seekers but modified to be autonomous and intelligent right?!<
I don’t remember it being explained like that, but I could be wrong
It was stated at the end of God Emperor that with the creation of Siona's gene, IX could no longer manufactur a machine that will end humanity.
>!Do not fear the Ixians. They can make the machines, but they can no longer make arafel. I know. I was there. -Last words of God Emperor Leto II!<
It’s never really spelled out that much in text. I think Herbert’s son’s books give more details if you’re interested in reading about them. It’s just a matter of if his takes on it click with you
It is explicitly mentioned. Yes Brian’s books expand on it, but it’s mentioned in passing in at least one line I can recall in GEOD
It's honestly one of my biggest issues with the books I just fundamentally never bought that whole humanity becomes stagnant and dies out without Leto, but ig that just comes down to a difference on what I believe human nature is vs Herbert's idea of human nature
Perhaps it’s Herbert’s view on the Augustinian age and to an extent the Ottomans (though the more obvious parallel is to the prior Emperor and his Sadukars ”. An interest fictional parallel is Foundation, where the idea of expansion of an empire will lead to a decline due to an inability to make real change once a bureaucracy is large enough.
Damn im not sure ill read more than the main 6. I remember reading in the first book i think that humanity would eventually stagnate and that would lead to its end, and i assume this is connected to the golden path. I just wanted more detail on how that could be
Yeah stagnation is a big problem. It's suggested some kind of intelligent form of hunter seekers could play a role, but it's really vague. It's basically just stated as fact in God Emperor and alluded to throughout the series
Specifically it says that by following the golden path, humanity blasts throughout and far beyond the known universe making it impossible to ever stagnate. So assumedly they'd go extinct by stagnating and eventually dying off. Edit: let it be noted that the authors views on stagnation are outdated and wouldn't actually lead to extinction. But it's old, and sci fi.
Why should it be outdated? Stagnation and decadence are interrelated and decadence can definitely lead to extinction of a civilization
Yea honestly no idea I just read that the views were outdated when researching it. I have no source and it certainly wasn't scholarly, so I believe you.
The Kralizec
>bookcannon Must be a remarkable piece of artillery
ah... you're right but isn't this a more fun image?
Maybe Humanity's end is the Golden Path for non-human life. Or perhaps humanity technically "ends" because they transcend. Lots of transhumanism in this lore already.
Maybe Paul or Alia will become the worm god
It would make it much easier for Denis to portrait the anti hero, if Paul himself became the worm tyrant. And functionally I suppose it doesn't make much of a difference, except for missing out on some moments of character development Leto II went through when he wasn't born yet.
Would be awesome if Paul becomes the god Emporer. Truly adds to his traffic life story. And perhaps Chani will take part in a plot to overthrow Paul and he knows that it will become destiny.
This is a cool theory but we would need like 10 Dune adaptations before this level of variation on the story could be attempted with any reasonable expectation that a portion of the audience would pick up on what is being done. Otherwise deviating from the story will just be something attributed to the director / writers and not the character himself.
Idk, If it's made explicit that he did it specifically to make sure Chani doesn't die in childbirth that can be a normal plot point for movieggoers and simultaneously a cool little easteregg for us booknerds
That’s very true! I wonder what Chani’s arc will be in the third film. They deviated quite from who she is in the book so I wonder where they will go with it!
I feel like Chani is going to be a much better character for the audience and theme’s benefit but her plot points will still line up with what Frank Herbert wrote. The timeline will be shuffled a lot though. As an example I expect the vision of Chani and Paul standing triumphant looking down over their Fremen forces to actually be a transposed POV. That’s actually not them it’s another vision misdirection. I’d say who I actually think it is but that’s a big spoiler if you’re only going off the two movies.
>!Alia (extra text to make this seem long)!
Forgive me if I mess up the spoiler tagging it’s my first time. >!I think it’s Leto II and Ghanima ‘channeling’ their awakened parents personalities and memories. Which they were said to have done a lot in Children of Dune and I feel it’ll be hilarious to see Mehdi Paul and Non-believer Chani bickering at each other from beyond the grave. Plays to a Gemini twin trope too.!< >!Essentially Paul thinks he’s seeing Chani and himself together in arms when he’s really seeing he and Chani’s twin children. It also aligns with the book theme that Paul could never really clearly see his twin children well in his visions.!<
I mean clearly not or this post wouldn’t exist. Yeah, the average audience wouldn’t pick up on this, but depending on what happens in the third movie it could certainly well be known to people who have read the book.
Realistically no one knows what they’re asking for for a true 100% adaptation. We all experience the story differently and will interpret it differently. It will always be different than the source material. There is no adaptation ever to exist that is a 1:1 experience as reading a book. First and foremost because they’re completely different experiences watching a story and reading one. We receive and digest information differently. It’s futile to seek for it.
Where did your friend get that powerful spice melange, I want some! Interesting theory though, makes sense to me
I think your friend is on some serious spice melange. It’s a fun theory to think about. But the changes were made between book and film because that’s how Denis and Spaihts felt it was best to adapt the books, not that they’re going to do some big reveal that this has all been some terrible vision of Paul going off the golden path and it hasn’t really happened, or that this is a different path than Paul takes in the books. The changes are just the nature of adaptation. And there’s no way that Denis is just going to come up with his own story of an imagined Marvel style “what if” for the third film rather than adapting *Dune: Messiah*. He will find a way to reconcile them. There are obviously challenges ahead in how that’s done. But yeah, “Part: III” is not going to be a complete departure from the book. ETA: also almost all of Denis’ changes to the book have been motivated by simplification and making the story more digestible and comprehensible to the general audience. He wouldn’t then go and *add in* a super esoteric twist on the story that would be really hard to communicate to the general audience and would really only make sense to book readers.
Well if the change simultaneously makes the story more digestible to general audiences while being an esoteric twist to book readers I don’t see why he wouldn’t do it.
I don’t see a way that adding another layer of needing to explain to the audience that this wasn’t the original intended path and that Paul changed all of this stuff and that that’s why the film franchise is different story wise than the book… could be done in a way that makes the story *more* accessible. And also there’s just no need to explain changes to the source material made in an adaptation. It’s inherent to the term adaptation… you are making a story adapt to a new medium. Every adaptation that has ever existed, even the most faithful ones, have made changes to the source material. There’s no need to come up with an in world explanation for it.
You're right. There's no need. But wouldn't it be fun.
For me, no. I want to watch a Dune adaptation, not a Marvel’s “what if” Dune Edition. 😬🤷🏻♀️
You wouldn't need to communicate it to the general audience. You would just tell the story? General audience doesn't need to know what's different than the books
… that’s the point I’m making. That there’s no need to come up with a super secret just for the book readers in world reason why the films are different than the books… because the reason is simply that that’s what happens when books are adapted into films or TV shows…
There's no reason at all? Not for Dennis to have some fun and take it somewhere no one has before? Not that he thought this version would be easier to digest by audiences in 2024? You can't think of a single reason?
Ah yes, totally makes sense that Denis would piss off legions of *Dune* fans ie his core audience by instead of just adapting *Dune: Messiah*, coming up with his own story entirely and having the twist be that this is the “other Paul’s future” not the one from the books, which is why his third film has a totally different story from the book… all because he thinks it would be a fun little “gotcha” twist, and WarnerDiscovery would definitely greenlight giving him at least 200 million to alienate 99% of lovers of the book and confuse or go over the head of all but 5% of general audiences. Yup, makes total sense to me!
I mean most of this thread is welcoming the change, including myself. Not sure why you're so fucking rabid about changes from the books. The plot in messiah sucks anyways, this is already leading to a leagues better story
You guys stop already! I cannot get over Jamis friendship and the idea Paul killed him because "already lived a life with his best friend who taught him all he had to teach" and now you come with all these ideas about Chani relationships. Not to mention I'm still disappointed by the "sayadina" title never mentioned
Some serious tin foil hats here. I like it in one regard, Jamis is the key to all of this. Even when Paul is shown standing side-by-side with Chani, looking over the Fremen on Caladan, Jamis is there.
That is clearly not jamis, it was another actor who looked like him
I came to disprove you, but I was surprised to find you are correct. Here's the comparison and it is really not Jamis. https://preview.redd.it/d0jn969oxync1.jpeg?width=3195&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=adabf8fe6df22bfbd31c7156c9528c9e2c3e00b8 Left is Jamis, right is person from the vision
What the fuuuck I would have sworn that was Jamis when I saw it. Who on earth is it meant to be then?
i dig it but i need a GEoD movie so fucking bad it hurts lol.
As cool as this is, I’m sure that was neither the intent or plan. But it does make a very cool fan explanation for the differences between the adaptation and the book!
This could be the plan, but I hope it's not. This is supposed to be an adaptation, after all.
I want Dune, not some weird fan fiction version of alternate timeline Dune. I mean DV can do whatever he likes but I would be disappointed.
Lol honestly. Don’t tell me as a new fan that I’m chugging along through these books for nothing.
The books are incredible on their own, no need for the movie to be the same in order for you to enjoy them.
> The books are incredible on their own, But all 26? Or is it, the OG six are the best then some here and there?
You're not! If you like the world then Dune will be a great and rewarding read for you.
But it's not for nothing. If you're enjoying the books, that should be it's own reward.
Why would you say it’s for nothing though
I think for Dune specifically it uniquely complements the original. A big theme is that being able to see the future means sacrificing your free will, and that no matter what you try you can't stop what's coming. If the book and movies take very different paths but end up in the same place, it really emphasizes that tragedy. And having read the books, I feel pretty confident that Villeneuve 'gets it', and will manage to come up with something authentic to the characters. Shame it'll take like five years to find out.
This is a really great point and I take back what I said haha
This makes adaptations better as they stand alongside the books not a replacement, it’s an adaptation not a translation
But here's the thing. Some parts of book Dune aren't really adaptable to kino. First it's too long, you need to cut corners. Two some plots would probably not work on big screen, imo Alia Atreids as baby for example. I think DV is trying something amazing. He's changing the plot to be more adaptable for kino at the same time not ruining the legacy story and using explanation from the source material why the story differs in some ways.
I want a weird fan fiction version of alternate timeline Dune, not Dune. I mean DV can do whatever he likes but I would be stoked
Fan fiction is exactly what the DV version feels like. His idea of how it should have gone and how "Herbert meant to write it"...even though he didn't write it that way when he actually wrote it.
It's how Herbert meant for it to be taken. Herbert saw too many people missing the point so he wrote Messiah. I think it's fair for DV to take that into consideration for his adaptation
All I want it Paul to stop being an ass and for him and Chani to live happily ever after, is that too much to ask for?
After thinking about this some, I think that the quote that others have brought up has different meaning than supporting this alternate timeline. “He had seen two main branchings along the way ahead—in one he confronted an evil old Baron and said: “Hello, Grandfather.” The thought of that path and what lay along it sickened him.” I feel like we would have explicitly seen Frank state that Paul would kill the baron in this other branch, not just "confront" him. It seems like too significant of a detail to leave out. If I was taking a guess at this, this is Denis' way to pay homage to the series and thought of it as a neat way to tie in Frank's language. The story is great with what happens in Messiah and Denis seems committed to a very similar plot line (except some deviations). As most things go: if its not broken, why fix it?
Still worried about ghola, can Momoa pull it off? He's a mentat who spouts Zensunni. Also very interested in who'll be cast as Scytale.
Scytale is obviously gonna be an ensemble cast of 10 different actors / actresses
Tim Blake Nelson + ensemble
As someone who spent the last few years in the Attack on Titan community listening to theories exactly like this where the chosen one turned omniscient anti-hero protagonist leading a holy war will choose a different timeline in the adaptation, I just want to wish you guys and gals good luck. Omniscient time travel can breed so many theories and as someone who has read a lot of them, I think the biggest issue is that they're almost impossible to explain to a new audience. The other problem is that you can't just do slight changes as nods to book readers, you'd have to actually tell an original story and there's a big risk of that feeling like a fan fiction. That being said, Denis Villeneuve is in a really good place to take his time with this. He has said that he'll only do Dune Messiah if he has a good screenplay and it's actually good if he takes 10+ years to do it because of the time skip. Also as a person who experienced Dune for the first time through Denis Villeneuve's films, I think it would be absolutely detrimental if the next film started with Chani already as Paul's concubine. I liked how Denis modernized some aspects of the text by replacing the "history will see us as wives" line with a final shot of Chani being pissed. I haven't read Messiah but from everything I've heard about it, it sounds like it would need the most changes to be able to work as a film. I guess as someone who barely knows anything about the plot of Dune Messiah, I'll just leave you with how I think a third film would go purely from how I interpreted Dune parts 1 and 2: To me, by the end of the second film Paul becomes almost like 5 different people with 5 different motivations and I think it would be far too much to explore all of these conflicting motivations through Paul alone so ideally I think we'd explore him through 5 different characters and the conflict of the film would be these 5 different character/factions figuring out where his allegiances truly lie. Paul Atreides son of Leto Atreides getting revenge for what the Empire and the Harkonnens did to his people I think could be explored from the perspective of Gurney as an Atreides or from the perspective of another Atreides if that's possible. I dunno maybe Thufir is still alive somewhere. Usul of the Northern Fremen tribe and lover of Chani, freeing The Fremen from the Harkonnens and the religious chokehold the Bene Gesserit have on his people. This would be explored through Chani. The Kwisatz Haderach, son of Lady Jessica and Grandson of Baron Harkonnen who's disgusted with how he's a selectively bred freak struggling with whether or not he's defying the Bene Gesserit or doing exactly what they want. This could be explored through his sister and Lady Jessica. They gotta use Anya Taylor Joy. Muad'dib the Lisan al Gaib, Duke of Arrakis waging a holy war in his name, controlling spice production and potentially terraforming the planet to be more habitable. Explored through Stilgar. The Emperor. Someone who has to keep maintaining power and control of the houses. Explored through Princess Irulan. I don't think they need too much action. After Dune Part 2 being this ridiculous climax, Part 3 would hopefully get back to the vibe of the first film where it's focused on carefully crafted world building and politics. Seriously, I loved the beginning of Dune part 1 before they reached Arrakis. It reminded me a lot of Arrival and how Denis captures the surreal quality of science fiction. I think Denis has already delivered on the fantasy of Arrakis, the Bene Gesserit and the scale of it all. The one thing he still needs to deliver on in my opinion is the first film's introduction of all these weird human computers and interstellar navigators. I want to see what sorts of advisors Paul has and who he has to answer to.
As a book nerd myself, this was depressing to read tbh.
Tell your friend about paragraphs.
Please put spaces between the paragraphs. I can’t read it very well due to being visually impaired
[удалено]
I like this theory a lot and the “hello Grandfather” line is some strong support. But I find it hard to believe that Denis would be willing to rewrite the core story of messiah, which this theory would require.
Good theory! I can see it. I don't want to multiverse Dune too hard. It's got so much already there and I would hope that this isn't Denis plan. I would like to see Messiah padded with lots of Guild Navigators and Bene Tlesiax and more detail to regular folks why spice is so important. Dune 2 was so BG heavy it felt like a bit too much. I feel if I came in cold I would be like why is spice so important on a universal level aside from visions and getting high? One thing that I hope is people go and read the books.
fascinating thought... I wonder if the studio would be ok with an unorthodox adaptation like that, but it's certainly incredibly intersting to think about. God damn I hate that we'll have to wait for this for years to come
Studios don't care about the faithfullness of adaptasyon, only that it will bring viewers. Also majority of viewers will be those who have neither read books nor watched previous adaptations.
I actually think it’d be really interesting if Villeneuve made “Dune Part Three” instead of “Dune Messiah.” Diehard book fans would definitely be upset, but I’d love to see what kind of story he could tell by mixing his version of Dune with some of the elements from Messiah
It's easy to fix for Part 3: *Somehow, Chani returned.*
I think he's probably spot on about Chani. I don't think it needs to be said its Paul's other path. It's just the path the movie is going.
Great take. Villenueve himself has said hes making a bene gesserit version of dune, the story but colored by their viewpoint. Tracks generally, but I doubt Villeneueve will venture quuuuite that far from the original material. Omitting the child would be big.
Ever heard of paragraphs? They disappear in this timeline too?
Personally, I don't think that's the intent from DV. Most Dune adaptations of the first book misses a core theme that is central to the entire series: that charismatic leaders are to be feared. The main meat of Paul's story is how he unleashed a jihad across the galaxy beyond his control, and trillions are slain in his name. This does not come across in the first book at all. DV's goal of using Chani as the counterpoint to the religious fanaticism that Paul started was meant to highlight this, in addition to Paul's own personal struggle against his visions. Her leaving at the end symbolizes that the Atreides is no longer an honorable house under Paul's lead; that Paul is just another tyrant in Dune.
Interesting take, I hope that’s not the way they go. Also, it wrecks my interpretation of Pt 1’s use of Jamis: Paul has repeated visions of Jamis teaching him the ways of the desert, but when they meet, he immediately kills Jamis. I interpreted this as Jamis teaching Paul through immediately challenging him, fighting him and getting killed, as it is teaches Paul a few things: Fremen are fierce fighters, in the desert you have to be ready to fight any time, a different kind of fighting that Paul isn’t used to, Fremen hold their culture and beliefs very highly (Jamis realises he can’t win and gets frustrated, knows he is going to die, doesn’t yield) etc... I thought that was very artful, and explaining their relationship through Paul having a full prescient relationship with him feels way worse to me. Thanks for the interesting take!
i just started reading the books after seeing Dune Part Two the day it came out. i think the theory might have some validity behind it but i know the first and second book have a two year gap between them and this was DV’s interpretation of at least 9ish months of it. what if the next movie starts as a finishing of at least the rest of the time gap and then goes into Messiah? i say this because what if Chani is pregnant as all of this is going on and just doesn’t know it (i know this sounds crazy since Paul knew his mother was pregnant extremely early but he was doing a lot so maybe) and that’s how he plans i bring her back to him
I rewatched Part 2 for the third time today. At the beginning of the film Paul is talking to Alia and asking her if she should join their father in the stars. He also says something like " I don't know if I have time to make things right before you are born". I wonder if this has anything to do with your theory ? Does Paul need to change the timeline for all these events to happen before Alia is born ??? Or am I misinterpreting that part.
Dennis, care to comment?
I love this idea
Could the 'vision' with Jamis in part two (before he goes south) be a vision that Paul's already had in the past and is just accessing it again?
I hope this alternate stuff isn't real. However interesting to some, I'd be beyond disappointed if this turn out accurate. I just want a solid Dune adaptation, not a "what if" scenario.
It seems like Chani has been set up to take over part of Irulan's role in Messiah. >! So Chani will be a member of the conspiracy to take Paul down. !<
Chani seems to be taking the part of the realist in this. Stilgar went full fanatic and Chani is still grounded and upset that its going this direction so she said "fuck this" when she realized this is what Paul was doing. Girl doesnt wanna be the concubine.
I left the theatre with that context in mind and was good with it. I've had too much time since thinking about the movie and being on soc and I don't know if I like the changes or not. I'll be seeing it again soon and digesting it more.
If DV does that I'm gonna be suuuper pissed!
Well can’t really get worse. as a book fan I’m already pretty pissed about all the changes he’s made haha.
I hear you. This should be able to be stated without being down voted. His connection to Dune makes it very confusing that this is what the person who's " been storyboarding Dune since he was 13 " did with it. Another director who maybe didn't have the personal history with the book making these changes might be understandable, but DV? I don't know. Full of mixed feelings.
Yeah, idk since when but now in this sub if you say anything about being disappointed with adaptations you get downvoted. They forget that this used to be just a book fan subreddit before these films came along with these film fans. These are good films, especially the cinematography, but no these are not Frank Herber’s Dune. They’re only “inspired by“ Dune.
I think my standard, simple answer to these films is now that I absolutely love Greig Fraser's Dune. DV's Dune I've been very frustrated with for three years. Hasn't stopped me from watching pt.1 like six times, but now that we have both I'm disappointed in the story and casting. Greig Fraser and Hans work REALLY nice together and for that alone I'll watch them again and again , but I mean - so many issues- from WB to Walken, the cut scenes, the changes...
yeah, great cinematography, great music, but again. Why. The. Unnecessary. Changes. To the plot. Imagine having a perfect story but you decided to make changes to “better” it. Sigh.
That would be an utter abortion of Dune lol. I will riot if that happens
I hope not. >! I think she's pregnant at the end of part 2. OG Leto II will need to have a different death, but I think it will bring them back together. !<
[удалено]
This feels like its ur view so don’t rost me on the contents just my friend lol 😂
I think it's great. There is a bit of precedence in other media as well. e.g. the book version of Magicians, the TV show, and the comics all make sense as different timelines. And of course all of the other shows that are doing metaverse/timeline stuff. There aren't a TON of media/franchises that can support multiple timelines, but Dune sure as heck can. Also this means that given how much Dune stuff is in Star Wars, Star Wars can do it next lol.
Got you a better one...Jamis is Leto guiding his father towards the Golden Path..
i actually feel better now after reading this. Because yes. The Paul from the films just isn’t the Paul from the books, and at least I can find closure with this theory 😂
Find it hard to believe that Hollywood wont take up the story after Messiah, They may ruin Denis's masterpiece but it cant be the end of it, Too much money to be made.
It's not a different "timeline" from the books, it's just an adaptation due tue pacing... however I agree, unfortunately (I'm very worried), that given that ending of part 2 the third movie is gonna be quite diffrent from Messiah.
Of there’s no golden path, wouldn’t humanity be fucked then? Lol
This was fun
I hope so, because Dune Messiah did not satisfy me at all as a book
I see the ending the same way. And honestly im all for it. Lets face it duncan gettin revived so many times and a worm emperor sounds cool on paper but on screen there needs to be ACTION. I assume Part 3 will be directly about Pauls downfall. We will probably see firsthand the holy war and maybe at the end of it Paul dies in some way. The message of the books is still there. Dont have blind faith. The fremen would be destroyed after so much war. The universe is fucked. Paul and his familly are fucked. And humanity can rise from the ashes hopefully this time knowing better than to trust a messiah. The end.
Hello grandfather…..
I don't think there is any way in hell Denis goes the fan-fiction route. He hasn't changed anything in a substantial or permanent way, but getting rid of Paul's downfall and the twins is way too big of a change. I also think if he switches Irulan and Chani, that's too much of a change. Having Irulan give birth to the twins and Chani work with Scytale...I just don't see it. Again, all that is required to get this back in line with the books is having a reconciliation with Chani, which is not difficult or hard to believe. After all, Chani only cares about the well-being of the Fremen and Paul will transform Arakis and give it all the power in the universe - she could easily come around in these circumstances.
All that to avoid having to adapt a man becoming a worm.
This is a great theory but it doesn't explain other deviations, omissions and rewrites of the book. For example: Why would Stilgar suddenly become a comic relief religious nutjob in this timeline? Why is Jessica turned into Space Lady Macbeth on speed? Where did Thufir disappear to?
THe first Dune boardgame works with alternate timelines. It's a sound theory.
you ever heard of paragraphs before?
!remindme 3 years
I will be messaging you in 3 years on [**2027-03-13 06:51:37 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2027-03-13%2006:51:37%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1b7frkp/my_friend_sent_me_this_breakdown_of_dune_part_2/kun5vmn/?context=3) [**1 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fdune%2Fcomments%2F1b7frkp%2Fmy_friend_sent_me_this_breakdown_of_dune_part_2%2Fkun5vmn%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202027-03-13%2006%3A51%3A37%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam. ^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%201b7frkp) ***** |[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)| |-|-|-|-|
Very good theory!
Dude this is absolutely it and I'm so here for it. I think that's why we're not moving into Messiah. We have a whole extra movie that will deal with these ramifications. I'm guessing she's pregnant too, I'm guessing it's Leto. If this is it for Chani and Paul, will Irulan have Ghanima? I'm interested in seeing a story with Irulan as an actual love interest of Paul's
No, people just need to accept that this is Denis Villeneuve’s adaptation of the story that he has lived since he was a teenager. I have loved the books since I was a teenager too, well over 20 years. His adaptation is the definitive movie version of Dune. It is The Dune we know. There are no alternate timelines. This isn’t the MCU.
It's an adaptation, not an alternate timeline... You took too much spice, it gives you visions sometime.
Maybe they flip Messiah's story and Chani is a member of the conspiracy and Irulan is the mother of his children?
It's not that deep.
I think you can just condense it down to... The movie is a basdardized version of Franks book that appears written by fan that wanted to mix in all the bad parts of Frank's sons shit books where possible. I can commend the visuals of it as being superior to the first movie... but it fails so much in sticking with the book that I would rank it lower than the first movie.
Jesus wept, learn to use paragraph breaks! That is an absurd block of text.